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Friday, April 13, 2012

The end of the Holocult

Germany is finally rejecting the self-serving religion of collective ethnic responsibility for historical crimes:
Sharp criticism of Israel, particularly from the left, has long been a tradition among European intellectuals, and Mr. Grass’s poem caused little stir on the Continent outside of Germany. But political and scholarly elites here have more often resisted that trend, tending to see basic support for Israel as a German responsibility, if not a necessity, after the Holocaust.

But the public response to the furor over Mr. Grass’s poem suggests that that attitude is breaking down as World War II recedes into history. “In the populism you see surfacing on a large scale, the public is all behind Grass,” said Georg Diez, an author and journalist at the magazine Der Spiegel who has written critically of the poem.
One needn't be a Holocaust denier nor an anti-semite to recognize the fundamental absurdity of the "Never Again" cult. After all, there is no more justification to hold the Germans of today responsible for the large-scale slaughter of the Polish and Russian Jews sixty years ago than there was for medieval Christians to hold the Jews of their day responsible for crucifying Jesus.

The Holocaust doesn't justify anything. It doesn't justify Jewish paranoia about American Christians, it doesn't justify open immigration, it doesn't justify Israeli aggression in the Middle East, it doesn't justify American aggression in the Middle East, and it certainly doesn't justify the neocon willingness to sacrifice American interests for Israeli ones. The Holocaust was just one of the many bloody historical tragedies that illustrate the fallen state of Man, and it wasn't even unique at the time given the Nazi slaughter of the Slavs, the Soviet slaughter of the Ukrainians, and the Japanese slaughter of the Chinese that all took place during the same historical milieu.

Nor is it necessary to justify the existence of Israel. Israel has the same right to defend itself that every other nation does. Israel has the same right to exist that every other nation does. Israel is neither a saintly nation that can do no wrong nor an evil fascist state that can do no right. It's just a small nation-state that is both praised and criticized to a degree that greatly exceeds what its actions merit.

Now, despite the best efforts of Hollywood's Jews to preserve it as a useful propaganda device, people are increasingly beginning to abandon the iconic notion of collective ethnic responsibility for past events. This is in part due to immigration, as I doubt any of the 50 million Central and South Americans now resident in the United States feel any more residual guilt for the Holocaust than they do for 19th century slavery or the Mongol invasions. But it's also due to the perspective that the passage of time always eventually brings.

It's hard to believe in the historical uniqueness of the Holocaust in the light of the Killing Fields of Cambodia and the massacres in Rwanda. It's even harder to believe that the National Socialists were viciously attacking completely innocent scapegoats for absolutely no reason in light of how the members of an ethnic group that comprises only 2.1 percent of the U.S. population are now massively overrepresented in the House and Senate, at 6.2 percent and 13 percent respectively. And while the Federal Reserve isn't doing anything it hasn't been doing since 1913, it probably doesn't greatly help the Jewish cause that Ben Shalom Bernanke is the individual now presiding over a particularly problematic stage for the US fiat currency.

Anyhow, my thought is that if a small and distinctive group of people want to band together and acquire as much political power as possible, they had damned well better be sure to do a good job of running things for the benefit of everyone, not merely their own particular interests, because if they're simply going to play the interest group game, eventually the majority or one of the larger minority groups is going to band together and do whatever is necessary to throw them out of power and keep them out. The fact that the two primary interests of the U.S. Congress presently appear to be a) sending trillions to Wall Street and b) supporting Israeli foreign policy does not bode well in this regard, as it suggests that there is a small, but real risk that if the U.S. economy crashes and the nation begins to divide on its ethnic fault lines, even Americans may eventually find themselves casting about for an all-too-familiar scapegoat.

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95 Comments:

Anonymous Roundtine April 13, 2012 4:34 AM  

And so the cycle continues. One of the bad things about having a good cultural memory is not letting go of the past.

Jews in America have perhaps the best situation they have ever had as a people outside of when they had their own nation (and maybe even better given the U.S. position in the world), yet much of the leadership actively works to undermine America's Christian culture and even the white majority via immigration policy, if some critics (such as Sailer) are correct. Playing interest group politics can go on forever with a dominant majority of similar ability and culture (unlike in nations such as Indonesia, where Chinese dominate and have foreign religion and culture).

That's why it's amazing to me that the Jewish community isn't for tighter immigration. The U.S. is letting in muslims that are outright anti-semitic and other races that are at best mildly racist against them. Anti-semitism is drowned out by the dominant white Christian culture, but at some point, real multiculturalism kicks in and the anti-semites will make their voices heard in the media.

Anonymous Idle Spectator über alles April 13, 2012 4:43 AM  

On Germany

1:07 - "You see, the thing is you're talking to a modern, nice, affable German person... all the time you're listening to this you're thinking: Hitler-Hitler-Hitler-Hitler-Hitler. There's a Hitler when you did the Hitler thing with Hitler. Hitler-Hitler-Hitler."

"Someone is talking to you in German... you think what is happening to you from behind, how can we make it stop?"

Anonymous Der Rote Idle Spectator April 13, 2012 4:53 AM  

I really love the German people in the YouTube comments saying how it is not funny. Even God's going with the jokes, DO YOU GET IT?!

German: Knock, knock.
Other Guy: Who's there?
German: WE ASK THE QUESTIONS!

Anonymous artie April 13, 2012 5:08 AM  

The holocult is far from over. It was always mainly driven by the gate keepers and not mainly the common people.

If anything, the reactions to Grass' poem shows this.

Anonymous Dr. T April 13, 2012 6:15 AM  

In my opinion as a right-wing-liberal German, what we are seeing is the result of the unclear role assignment of Grass. It is considered ok for a left-winger to criticize Israel and, to a lower degree, the Jews as a proxy of Israel. A right-winger criticizing the Jews or Israel as a proxy of Jews is considered an antisemitic Nazi and will be put down by the media. Grass used to be part of the left. However, when he owned up to his SS-membership, he was shifted to the right wing. Nobody said this clearly, and I assume that Grass himself was not aware of this. He thought he still enjoyed the immunity of the left, and thus was totally surprised by the shitstorm he got. But when this started to become generally pro-Israel, the commentators from the left came out again. They are still allowed to attack Israel and the Jews. Nothing changed.

Anonymous daddynichol April 13, 2012 6:30 AM  

A provocative article that will stir the pot a bit. I have no doubt that the other mass killings listed will be minimized or dismissed by more than a few simply based on numbers. Those readers will have missed the point completely.

Genocide score keepers.

Anonymous Anonymous April 13, 2012 6:35 AM  

"I really love the German people in the YouTube comments saying how it is not funny."

LOL how would they know if it was?

A German joke is no laughing matter.

World's shortest book: 500 Years of German Humor.

Anonymous The Dude April 13, 2012 6:47 AM  

When you say the Israeli "nation" has the right to defend itself, do you mean "nation" in the technical sense: folks with a common culture, language, mythos, religion, etc. or in the modern sense: a state?

Jews slide from one meaning to another, imperceptibly, even in the same sentence. For example,a friend, when pushed, admitted tthat the right of the nation of Israel to self-defense meant to him that the Jewish Army (IDF), would defend Jewish denizens of Iraq, Iran, even America: the IDF has an international role protecting individuals of Jewish descent no matter what their nominal nationality.

Anonymous yuri April 13, 2012 6:50 AM  

Anti-semitism is drowned out by the dominant white Christian culture...

How is the "white Christian culture" dominant?

The Fall of the Anglo-Saxons
(...)

Although he emphasizes the role of the media in the decline of Anglo-Saxon America, Kaufmann fails to discuss the very prominent role of Jews in the media. My review of this topic is here where I note that “ethnic Jews have a very large influence on the media — far larger than any other identifiable group” (See also here, p. 53 ff.) .” And I show that the attitudes promoted by Jews in the media are influenced by their Jewish identity and reflect the liberal/left/cosmopolitan attitudes of the wider Jewish community. Relevant to Kaufmann’s emphasis on expressive individualism as contributing to the decline of Anglo-Saxon America, the difference between the Hollywood elite and both the traditional elites and the general public is clearest on “expressive individualism”—a dimension tapping ideas of sexual liberation (including approval of homosexuality), moral relativism, and a disdain for religious institutions. The movie elite is also more tolerant of unusual or deviant lifestyles and of minority religions and ethnic groups.
(...)
Kaufmann charts the decline of Anglo-Saxons and the rise of the Jews in all areas of the American elite, from university departments of Political Science to the federal civil service. “For twenty years, the de-WASP-ing of the ruling elite in America has proceeded at a breathtaking pace.” Kaufmann cites the important study of Lerner et al. (American Elites, 1996) showing that Jews were highly overrepresented in several areas of the elite, especially in the media and the legal profession. Jews outnumbered Anglo-Saxons 58–21 among elites in television, 48 to 25 among “public interest” elites, and 40 to 21 among legal elites. The same study found that, “in stark contrast to the Jews, WASPs were not overrepresented within the ranks of the national elite.” Frank Salter has shown that on issues of concern to the Jewish community (Israel, immigration, ethnic policy in general), Jewish groups have four times the influence of European Americans despite representing approximately 2.5% of the population.
(...)

Non-Wasp, non-Jewish whites (except for the Mafia) are even less cohesive than Wasps.

Anonymous VD April 13, 2012 6:55 AM  

When you say the Israeli "nation" has the right to defend itself, do you mean "nation" in the technical sense: folks with a common culture, language, mythos, religion, etc. or in the modern sense: a state?

The Israeli state has the right to defend its citizens and its territory. It has no right to defend Jews that are citizens of other states outside of its territory.

the IDF has an international role protecting individuals of Jewish descent no matter what their nominal nationality.

That's ridiculous. If they're seriously going to claim that, then all of those "nominal nations" would be justified in expelling their Jewish residents as a national security interest.

Anonymous Rollory April 13, 2012 7:19 AM  

I would not describe the risk as small at all. I would say that at this point it has become an absolute probability.

The system of ideology and belief set up by those ruling what Moldbug calls the Cathedral is starting to crack at the seams in a multitude of places. The economy is just one side of it. Go to any online newspaper article reporting on black misbehavior and you will see the article text characterizing it as a one-off unrelated event from which no broader conclusions should be drawn, while the comment threads (if allowed at all) are in every case strongly weighted toward vehement anti-black racism. It is only in dedicated political blogs, such as those with a population primarily of Democrats or military personnel, that one finds a more nuanced view.

Destroying and preventing white group consciousness has been a central part of the post-WW2 strategy. While one may possibly consider this understandable as a tactic to absolutely prevent any white group whatsoever from ever threatening Jews again, it is clearly beginning to fail, and the Cathedral is equally clearly incapable of adapting to that situation. The consequence of that will simply be that the final failure of the ideology's mental control over the general population will be drastic and sudden and very likely violent.

Anonymous LES April 13, 2012 7:24 AM  

Jews also comprise 33% of the US Supreme Court. No protestants at all.

"In 614, local Palestinian Jews allied with their Babylonian coreligionists assisted the Persians in their conquest of the Holy Land.  In the aftermath of the Persian victory, Jews perpetrated a massive holocaust of the Gentiles of Palestine.  They burned the churches and the monasteries, killed monks and priests, burned books.

This devastation was not the worst crime.  When Jerusalem surrendered to the Persians, thousands of local Christians became prisoners of war, and were herded to the Mamilla Pool area.  The Israeli archaeologist Ronny Reich writes: ‘They were probably sold to the highest bidder.  According to some sources, the Christian captives at Mamilla Pond were bought by Jews and were then slain on the spot’.  An eyewitness, Strategius of St Sabas, was more vivid: ‘Jews ransomed the Christians from the hands of the Persian soldiers for good money, and slaughtered them with great joy at Mamilla Pool, and it ran with blood’.  Jews massacred 60,000 Palestinian Christians in Jerusalem alone." The world population was much smaller then, too.
There is also the book of Esther where the Jews purportedly killed 75,000 Persians.

Anonymous FrankNorman April 13, 2012 7:27 AM  

Jews slide from one meaning to another, imperceptibly, even in the same sentence. For example,a friend, when pushed, admitted tthat the right of the nation of Israel to self-defense meant to him that the Jewish Army (IDF), would defend Jewish denizens of Iraq, Iran, even America: the IDF has an international role protecting individuals of Jewish descent no matter what their nominal nationality.

I wonder if your friend would allow the same "right" to the military forces of other nation-states.

That's ridiculous. If they're seriously going to claim that, then all of those "nominal nations" would be justified in expelling their Jewish residents as a national security interest.

One civilian saying what it "meant to him" does not a nation-state's foreign policy make.
I seriously doubt that the IDF really think they can project power to countries all over the world.

Anonymous zen0 April 13, 2012 7:36 AM  

As one rabbi put it regarding the Holocult of memorials and museums:


Everybody loves dead Jews, its the one's that fight back they don't like.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza April 13, 2012 7:51 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous VD April 13, 2012 7:54 AM  

One civilian saying what it "meant to him" does not a nation-state's foreign policy make.

Obviously. That's why I said that his statement was ridiculous. If it was ever adopted as an official foreign policy, it would be disastrous.

Anonymous mmaier2112@work April 13, 2012 8:01 AM  

Zen0: I'd say more like "Everybody loves dead Jews, it's the live ones that are parasitic PITAs."

But I'm an evil person, so what do I know?

Blogger W.LindsayWheeler April 13, 2012 8:05 AM  

Does anybody know that Hitler wrote a second book? In that book, Hitler specifically wrote that he would go after the Jews if they started WWII. Did not the Final Solution begin in 1942? Way, Way after the beginning of the war when Britain entered.

The National Socialists wanted the Jews out of Germany. Why? Not only do they capture the seats of power, they also when they enter any venture, they form a clique and drive any gentiles out making their field solely owned by the Jews. The Jews controlled Weimar culture. Furthermore, the Jews were the head of both the Socialits and Communist parties in the Weimar.

Hitler wanted them out of Germany, not kill them. But when the Jews in America and Britain forced a war with the West, Hitler went after the Jews in REVENGE. The Holocaust was about Revenge, not race.

Furthermore, Marxism, or International Socialism, which is a creation of the Jews, the reason "International" is there, is a genocidal ideology. Marxism and International Socialism are about destroying, deconstructing Race and Nation. When faced with a Genodical ideology craftily represented by a group of people, what does one do?

The Holocaust, in my opinion, is the perfect Karma in response to Socialism, Marxism, International socialism.

The Jews are as disasterous in this country as well. Until the Europeans and WASPS figure that out, the Jews will take the European down to destruction.

As in the pseudo-Aesopian tale of the Scorpion and the Frog, "It is better we should both perish than that my enemy should live."

That is exactly what is happening.

Anonymous The Dude April 13, 2012 8:14 AM  

The Jewish mythos is drummed into the heads of every Jew every year at this time (Passover) by collectively reading from a book (Haggadah) compiled after the Exile. It tells the story of Moses and the Exodus.

It reminds Jews of their fundamental and eternal relation to the other people of the planet. Paraphasing: "In every single generation The Other comes after us and tries to destroy us. We shall not put down roots or mongrelize with the locals. Instead, we keep our bags packed so we can escape to another foreign land, which we will take from the goyishekopf locals and rule." Lather, rinse, repeat.

What a wonderful survival mechanism! The story is repeated every year, decade after decade, generation after generation, century after century, until the story of commonplace ethnic conflict is given its own special name, "antisemitism", which shows how completely different and special it is.

Indeed, President Obama appointed a special, worldwide, roving "antisemitism" ambassador, a Mr. Rosenthal, instead of a "racism" ambassador. At last count, Mr. Rosenthal was headed to Sweden to lecture the Swedes on their antisemitic attitudes.

I do believe you are on to something, Vox. The horrors of WWII are fading into the past, and the guilt-ridden post-WWII overreaction by the West with its pampering of "refugees" is going to explode.

I do hope it happens without too much bloodshed. I don't have much hope, however, as long as the multiculturalists keep upping the ante by criminalizing/suppressing any racial/ethnic discussions.

The Germans are not the first, but the last (and most mentally oppressed) of the European peoples to start resisting. Increasing German opposition to imposed racial blood-guilt is a healthy sign.

Anonymous Paul Sacramento April 13, 2012 8:33 AM  

Those that do not learn from history ( or fail to remember it) are doomed to repeat it.

Anonymous zen0 April 13, 2012 8:36 AM  

It reminds Jews of their fundamental and eternal relation to the other people of the planet. Paraphasing: "In every single generation The Other comes after us and tries to destroy us. We shall not put down roots or mongrelize with the locals. Instead, we keep our bags packed so we can escape to another foreign land, which we will take from the goyishekopf locals and rule." Lather, rinse, repeat.

What page is that on? I can't find it in my copy of the Haggadah.

Anonymous cherub's revenge April 13, 2012 8:39 AM  

That's why it's amazing to me that the Jewish community isn't for tighter immigration. The U.S. is letting in muslims that are outright anti-semitic and other races that are at best mildly racist against them.

Jews have historically sided with Muslims over Christians. Watch the Israeli Orthodox slowly returning to their medieval Semitic ways.

Also, the Jews will have no trouble dominating the lower IQ mestizos in the US the same as they do in Latin America.

Anonymous TLM April 13, 2012 8:42 AM  

Vox-You'd be stoned on the spot in many modern American churches for this article. Their 'all things Israel are awesome' zeal is every bit as strong as the zealots in Jerusalem circa 70AD.

As to Jews-I've met and befriended many a Jewish surgeon in my occupation. Most are really good people and tolerable. However, I've never met an East Coast Jew I didn't want to punch after being around them for more than 5 minutes. Curious as to how Jews act in other countries?

Anonymous Stilicho April 13, 2012 8:50 AM  

Interesting post, Vox. It also doesn't help that, at this particular juncture, the Fed-Father has Blankfein and Dimon perched on his shoulders. Hugin and Mugin never had it so good. The natural human reaction to this is entirely predictable. It's not that people resent their success per se, it's that their success is perceived as being due in large part to special favors done for other members of the tribe...a success from which others are automatically excluded.

Blogger Vox April 13, 2012 8:51 AM  

You'd be stoned on the spot in many modern American churches for this article.

Add it to the list of my non-Churchian heresies. One of the things I find amusing when atheists wax lyrical about historical Church oppression is that as an accused heretic, I would be much higher up the Inquisition's priority list than any of them.

Blogger Rahul April 13, 2012 9:20 AM  

I wonder what Vox's opinion on the Jewish conspiracy...

Blogger W.LindsayWheeler April 13, 2012 9:50 AM  

Yes, you would Vox. You'd be burned at the stake!

Anonymous Yorzhik April 13, 2012 10:09 AM  

[b]it doesn't justify Israeli aggression in the Middle East, it doesn't justify American aggression in the Middle East[/b]

Surely you meant it doesn't justify Muslim aggression in the Middle East? Because that aggression justifies American aggression in the Middle East.

[b]Israel has the same right to defend itself that every other nation does. Israel has the same right to exist that every other nation does. Israel is neither a saintly nation that can do no wrong nor an evil fascist state that can do no right.[/b]
If only the Muslims could be that reasonable. So far in regards to Jews they've been as close to evil fascists that can to no right as one can get. It's a good reason, if a country is able, to beat those unreasonable people down.

Anonymous VD April 13, 2012 10:15 AM  

Surely you meant it doesn't justify Muslim aggression in the Middle East?No, I meant exactly what I wrote. Although it is also true that the Holocaust does not justify Muslim aggression in the Middle East.

Anonymous The One April 13, 2012 10:52 AM  

Surely you meant it doesn't justify Muslim aggression in the Middle East?No, I meant exactly what I wrote. Although it is also true that the Holocaust does not justify Muslim aggression in the Middle East. ~Vd

Care to list some examples? Seems every war fought by Israel was preceded by Muslim aggression. Perhaps you can define aggression in reference to nation states.

Anonymous LES April 13, 2012 10:53 AM  

Israel does not have a Constitution or defined borders. Zionists, including Christian Zionists believe that the modern, secular state of Israel is entitled to take all the land from the river in Egypt to the Euphrates river (Genesis 15:18). Look at a map and you'll see why the US is fighting in the Middle East. Zionists want Jerusalem as the capital and a Third Temple built on the Temple Mount where the Dome of the Rock now sits. More war, anyone?

Anonymous Cryan Ryan April 13, 2012 11:17 AM  

Jews pretty much make the rules, and the rest of us are supposed to try to live our lives according to those rules.

Productive white men are to work and pay taxes, while their easily manipulated women support at the polls every possible roadblock to their success.

Every small white town in America is being inundated with "affordable housing projects" which, translated, means "a lot of unwed black women, and their rarely employed thug boyfriends, preying on the local white hosts".

If the average white man could truly be made to understand who is pushing these invasions of parasites, which will destroy his children and grandchildren, a new holocaust would result by 6 o'clock the next morning.

Anonymous The Dude April 13, 2012 11:19 AM  

Rahul: "I wonder what Vox's opinion on the Jewish conspiracy..."

Oh pooh! There is no Jewish conspiracy any more than there is some global conspiracy of "antisemites" or "the patriarchy" or "capitalists" or "colonialists". People are not blind. People know who they can trust. People know who works for their interests and who doesn't. People know when it is safe to talk about "n!ggers" or "honkeys" or "sp!cs" or "sheigetz" and when it isn't.

Anonymous Mr. Nightstick April 13, 2012 11:27 AM  

If we are gonna go around picking scapegoats, we'll pick the Mexicans over the Jews every time. Assuming we could pick only one.

Blogger The Aardvark April 13, 2012 11:28 AM  

"Zionists, including Christian Zionists believe that the modern, secular state of Israel is entitled to take all the land from the river in Egypt to the Euphrates river (Genesis 15:18). Look at a map and you'll see why the US is fighting in the Middle East. Zionists want Jerusalem as the capital and a Third Temple built on the Temple Mount where the Dome of the Rock now sits. More war, anyone?" --LES

Best example of being careful of your theology. What you believe MEANS something. It affects what you do, how you live, and who you vote for. The End-Timey-Wimey pushers will have vast accounting to deal with. Culturally, I believe they are more dangerous than the current batch of race-merchants. They certainly have more money and public will behind their agendas.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza April 13, 2012 11:36 AM  

Edited comment, wasn't thinking clearly. I misread V's post.

Anonymous Ulmer Miller April 13, 2012 11:44 AM  

I recently heard that many Jews in positions of power, be they in government or the private sector, are actually dual Israel-US citizens. I've tried searching but can't seem to find any lists of who's who. Anyone got any pointers for me?

Blogger W.LindsayWheeler April 13, 2012 11:46 AM  

As the Austrian, Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn pointed out, the Jews were the Aristocracy of Europe before 1910. It took them 50 years from Napoleon's Edict of freedom of the Jews until they ascended power in Europe. From the influx of millions of Russian Jews in this country in the 1910s as well, the Jews have in their control, all media outlets, TV, Newspaper, Newsmagazine and radio and many spots in Government, i.e. all the advisors around Bush and Cheney were Jews, to 4 Supreme Court jews (Sotomayer is a Marano Jew), to heads of law schools and political science departments, to classical studies departments, Jews are the ruling Aristocracy of America. They dictate our morals, our laws, the political correctness, our immigration, our foreign policy. America is totally owned by the Jews. America is a suburb of Tel Aviv.

The Roman Catholic Anthony Scalia has Orthodox Jews clerking for him. That means "European law" is not Judaized. All our banking is in the hands of Jews. Even our Joint Chief of Staff have Israeli staff! We are a thoroughly owned subsidiary of the Jewish NWO.

The United Nations is even a Jewish Construct of their NWO.

The Catholic Church has always taught their suppression. You don't want to listen to the Holy Spirit---You all go down with them as well. They gravitate to Power everywhere they go. They are our ruling Aristocracy.

Blogger Lucas April 13, 2012 11:49 AM  

No surprise there. As europe gets more and more islamized and socialist, the more they turn against Israel and the Jews.

Anti-israelism is a leftist ideology.

Anonymous rienzi April 13, 2012 11:51 AM  

Are you up for a little devilment? Do you want to see the folks who think they are the most intelligent beings ever to draw breath, stammer and sputter like Jimmy Stewart on a bad day? Then try this little thought experiment/parlor game the next time you find yourself having to deal with a particularly obnoxious group of American Jews, (like my wife's relatives.)

Darth Vader and the Death Star have come to Earth, and you have been abducted. Vader explains to you that the Empire is going to vaporize an entire country, just for the Hell of it, and has narrowed it down to the two it finds most objectionable. To your horror you see two buttons, one labeled "USA", the other "Israel".

Vader further explains that it makes no difference to him which country gets zapped, so he has abducted one earthling to make the decision, and that earthling is you. He is going to read your mind, to see which one you want destroyed. Your head buzzes, and Vader's hand reaches forward.

Which button does he push?


The reaction you will get is generally that of a berserk chimp that just got kicked in the gonads. Stand back and be prepared to defend yourself. Hell hath not the fury of a hypocrite exposed.

Anonymous Frederick303 April 13, 2012 12:08 PM  

I would like to throw out another interpretation here, if I may.

Now as regards the Jews, and I am not Jewish for the record, I have found most to have a high cultural regard for civilization, a real sense of charity, a real work ethic and I have to say I like them and see them as standing on the side of civilization. Now my exposure has been to Jews in technical fields and for the most part they are religious Jews, but the assumption they are a monolithic block is simply not true. I think the term is if you have two Jews together you will have three strongly held opinions or something like that. While they are clannish as a group due to their need to retain their unique religious culture, you will find a high degree of difference in opinion between different individuals, just like any other easy to identify group.

I think Jews tend to dominate in many fields because of their high intelligence combined with a serious work ethic. That has been my experience; it is not part of some kind of a Jewish plot. The number of patents, Nobel prizes and contributions made to science and medicine by those of Jewish culture background are massive, such work has nothing to do with self-promotion, it has a great deal to do with what are a very smart and productive people. These contributions have been good for many who have never stepped foot in any temple.

Now it is true that Jews have easily identifiable characteristics. As one manager I worked for stated it “Being a chosen people means we are held to a higher standard”. Having dealt with many fine Jewish folks, I can agree that this generalization of them is not far off: Many behave with very high standards, towards every one, not just their fellow Jews. That is why many Jewish individuals rise to the top; it is a matter of a successful culture, not a plot against others.

Now as to the persecution of Jews: I am sure there are all sorts of reasons why folks have oppressed them and disliked them through the centuries. But backing away from the specifics of any one pogrom, it seems to me that it can be seen in terms of a religious battle as well. Bear with me for a moment in this thought experiment:

Anonymous Frederick303 April 13, 2012 12:09 PM  

The Jews are G-d’s chosen people. At least that is what the Bible says. Now if they still are in some way chosen by G-d, would not those who are more inclined to the “prince of this world” be inclined to do Jews wrong? Think about it. If there is some sort of malevolent force in this world that seeks to oppose G-ds will how would such a spirit view the Jews? Not very well would it? I have to say whenever I have read about groups that wanted to do the Jews wrong; they are generally on the wrong side of what I would consider the good vs. evil conflict. The Nazis, lets kill the problem Utopians, Communists once they have purged the Jews, Muslims since the start, etc all went after Jews once in power. It is remarkable constant throughout history. While not all authoritarian societies are anti-Jew, those that are seem to always tip over into harsh oppressive totalitarian societies. In that regard one can consider Jews to be the canary in the coal mine, when a society starts to go off on the Jews, I start to get uncomfortable, no good will come of such a societal direction.

I am not saying Jews are perfect or without sin, there is an element of self sabotage that gets them in trouble at times, just like with any group (say the Germans for example). For example Jews have been very highly represented in all sorts of utopian dreams that all have ended up being harmful to society and then themselves. If you look closer at that, you will note in almost every case the Jews involved in these utopian schemes have been secular Jews, who have abandoned their own faith for some secular chimera of creating heaven on earth. They have in effect abandoned G-d and nothing good can come of this ever. They same is true of Gentiles, Stalin and Hitler abandoned faith in G-d for their own ego, the result is not good. In the case of Jews, many have a high potential, when they go in a bad direction they can be more harmful then a simple minded brute.

Just a different point of view to consider.

Regards

Frederick303

Anonymous freivolk April 13, 2012 12:14 PM  

Günther Grass is a very bad example for your point, Vox. He is one of this german lefties, who used the Holocaust always for his politcal agendas. For an example he said 1990 that Auschwitz makes a german unification impossible.
Actually said, he is a big fan of the Holocult, as long it fits in the left agenda.

Anonymous Sheila April 13, 2012 12:31 PM  

Excellent, excellent post, Vox. Thank you, in particular, for the "holocult" term. It fits the bill perfectly; I am not totally on board with those who call it the "holohoax," but it doesn't matter to me what specific number was killed and/or in what manner. When it comes to genocide scorekeepers (thank you for that, daddyNichol), I'll take a pass.

"That's ridiculous. If they're seriously going to claim that, then all of those "nominal nations" would be justified in expelling their Jewish residents as a national security interest." If not expelling Jewish residents, then perhaps far more carefully vetting those employed in government sinecures. To paraphrase Joe Sobran (I think), Jewish dual loyalty would be an improvement.

Anonymous VD April 13, 2012 12:45 PM  

I think Jews tend to dominate in many fields because of their high intelligence combined with a serious work ethic. That has been my experience; it is not part of some kind of a Jewish plot.

You're wrong. They dominate in many fields because they practice harsh discrimination against everyone who isn't Jewish. Look at the so-called "conservative" media. Almost no Jews vote Republicans or are conservative, and yet about 50 percent of the "conservative" media is Jewish. Do you really think little Benny Shapiro got syndicated by Creators when he was still in high school because he was so intelligent and hard-working? It certainly wasn't his readership. My weekly fluctuation at WND was bigger than his entire readership. Do you really think John Podhoretz was chosen as the editor of Commentary due to his intelligence and hard work?

AS with most minority interest groups, once you hire one member of the group and they get into a position of authority, they will hire nothing but their own unless there is no other option. The only difference between Jews and Blacks in this regard is that Jews find it much easier to get the first one in the door.

Anonymous rushmore April 13, 2012 1:03 PM  

Vox: "You're wrong. They dominate in many fields because they practice harsh discrimination against everyone who isn't Jewish."

Hang on a bit. If it's purely discrimination, it doesn't explain the OP's point that Jews dominate in things like Nobel prizes and pretty much every significant field of practical innovation. Discrimination wouldn't explain their over-representation in employment in certain fields but it would not explain their over-representation in achievement in those fields. And if they are - by and large - darn good at what they do, why wouldn't we expect they'd be promoted over others? The evidence of their accomplishments suggest their success is merit based. And that's a point you've summarily ignored.

Then you go on to point out that every minority group (and every majority group) is more prone to hiring its own "kind" because they're comfortable doing so. I fully agree. But this falls fully under the "no kidding" category of saying nothing at all. If everyone does it, it's not a reason to harangue the Jews in particular for it.

The Jewish race / nation / religion (however you wish to term it) has come in for far more success and abuse than any other similar group. That needs an explanation and an obvious one seems at hand - that they are chosen for a particular role in human history.

Anonymous cherub's revenge April 13, 2012 1:10 PM  

Frederick 303, now let's say your son called you in a panic one day from college saying "I just got evicted. My landlord's an asshole and he kept my security deposit. Can you please wire me $1500 ASAP so I can get a roof over my head"

So you send the money, because after all he's your son. You believe him. 11 months later he calls. Same story. Now you start to strongly suspect maybe your son is the problem not the landlords. But because he's your son and you don't want him out on the streets, you acquiesce and bail him out.

8 months later he calls with a new sob story, you promptly tell him tough shit, he made his bed, he can lie in it. Obviously every landlord in town isn't out to get him.

Now the Jews own narrative, is they have been persecuted to the point of expulsion in by some of their own counts, in over 100 empires, kingdoms, principalities,grand duchies, republics, city states and archdioceses.

These were as diverse across centuries and 1000s of miles as Persia, ancient Hellenized Levant, Rome, 13th Century England, 15th Century Catholic Spain, 19th Century Orthodox Russia, and 20th Century Central Europe.

And you're willing to grant a degree of benefit of the doubt to the Jews as victims, not aggressors, greater than that you would give to your own son. That's a seriously warped viewpoint on your part.

Anonymous cherub's revenge April 13, 2012 1:26 PM  

If you look closer at that, you will note in almost every case the Jews involved in these utopian schemes have been secular Jews, who have abandoned their own faith for some secular chimera of creating heaven on earth.

They're not secular at all. Their religion has always been a racial holy war.

God told them to stop, and for the 8,482nd time they were disobedient and kept at it until the present day.

Sure, this new lot haven't got the Talmud memorized front to back as their shtetl forebears did just 3 generations ago, but they certainly got the gist of it.

Anonymous Gen. Kong April 13, 2012 1:34 PM  

Jews are basically tools of the slave power. They are on a short leash collectively. One of the more interesting things to take place in recent years was watching what happened to the openly philosemitic Glenn Beck when he started bringing up the story of George Soros and how the Soros family fortune was made. For those on this thread who might not be aware, the Soros fortune was made from the seizure of the assets of Hungarian Jews about to be shipped off to Auschwitz and similar places.

The response of organized Jewish groups to Beck's exposure of this story was to demand Beck's removal from Fox. This took place almost immediately, despite Beck's popularity. There are a few honorable Jews here and there who openly despise Soros for his treason and Nazi collaboration - very few. Most follow the orders issued by their leaders, who serve the god of Babylon, not the one of Abraham. If things get uncomfortable for the slave power, they will not hesitate to throw non-Babylonian Jews under the bus of rage, which is what happened in the Nazi era.

Anonymous Frederick303 April 13, 2012 1:34 PM  

Vox,

While I am flattered that you would respond to my post, I have to ask you a few questions that might be a wee bit difficult. First to clarify my comments.

When I say in my experience I am referring to my field of employment, specifically in hardware electrical engineering. I have worked on magnetron radar control, industrial process control systems, communications, ultrasonic testers, airborne telemetry systems and power supply design since 1986. What I have seen in many companies is that advancement is due to merit, not pull, at least on the technical side of things.

My brother is a PHD in Physics; his area of expertise is theoretical 3-D high energy plasma simulation, which in order to advance has a close connection to the hardware experimentation side of things. He would agree with me on this; the advancement of Jews in this field is due to merit.

In both our fields there is a very high proportion of Jews relative to the general population. Further the Jews are among the very most productive in the fields, in terms of new and original ideas. Now with science connected to real life experiments and practical engineering you cannot bullsh-t your way into a successful solution to problems, or call your cousin who is connected to solve your problems. Further the 20-80 percent rule applies in our fields as well, a small percentage of folks are the innovators. Jews seem, for whatever reason, to have been in a leadership position as regards new technical ideas, far out of proportion to their numbers. Anyone who comes from a similar background will be able to back me up on this. It is simple reality.

Back to your statement: Now you say I am flatly wrong regarding what I have seen in my technical field. I know you have been employed in technical fields in the past, so perhaps that is not your experience. On what basis do you say this and could you clarify your point? Do you really think your statement is the case in technical fields?

By the way I am not referring to management of a Jewish owned firm, law, politics, film or other fields. You may be right in those fields, I have no idea. My reference is to science, engineering and medicine. In these fields we would be much poorer if the Jews were not allowed to play with the gentiles. Also the Jews I know in working in these fields have been, with few exceptions, stand up guys. They are assets to any civilization.

As to the other assertion of my second posting, I gather you to be a thinker, is there some defect in that little though experiment, or if you step out of the immediacy of the last century of history, does it not have some merit? If not, why so.

Regards

Frederick303

Anonymous cherub's revenge April 13, 2012 1:42 PM  

In these fields we would be much poorer if the Jews were not allowed to play with the gentiles.

They can "play with the gentiles" from Tel Aviv. We have this thing called "telecommunication" these days.

They need White gentiles way more than the other way around. That's why the start beating on the door to get back in no matter how many times they get kicked to the curb.

The majority of the world's Jews don't even want to live in their Jewish country. That ought to be a pretty big hint right there.

They have their own nation, so why are they still saying "next year in Jerusalem"? Grab an El Al ticket and make it this year.

Blogger W.LindsayWheeler April 13, 2012 1:43 PM  

Jews are a very very highly intelligent people. Yes they are nice. Most people are nice. That is not the question.

I worked in a Jewish Synagogue. I had a great time and I served them well. I did my best job for them and even participated in their services and could sing right along with them in Hebrew. They are a nice people.

The Suppression of the Jews is that they gravitate to power, second once in power they only hire their own. Third, let's say a Jew owns a newspaper. Well, he will convince Jewish businesses to only buy advertisement in his newspaper and pretty soon the goyim newspaper is driven out of business.

Fourth, the Jews are a Semitic people--not Indo-European. They think differently. They think to extremes. Monomanicalism is very prevalent in their thought. They do NOT think in binary terms. Moreover, they are a very materialistic people. They are not metaphysical. They are sentimental lot. They are a very feminine people whereas the Indo-European mentality is very masculine, i.e. binary thought.

Fifth, in the New Covenant, due to their not listening to their messiah, they are cursed. They are cursed to wander. That means that they must live in other countries and experience the pain of racial agitation. With that, they push tolerance and diversity in order to escape from the clutches of racial antagonism.

And Sixth, they are infected with Messianism. Even though atheist Jews don't feel that per se, they harbor this fixing of the world thing. Jews literally force events that will bring about their messiah! How many Christians notice this or know about this? OHHH, they are just like us, we are Judeo-Christians. NO. Orthodox Judaism is filled with this Messianism. Europeans are not! Jews orchetrate events and things to make their messiah appear.

Without Jesus, Without recognizing their savior, without recognizing their Eastern Character, they are a very dangerous lot to have in control of our media and our culture! but they do!

Furthermore, each Jew has an innate feeling to "Fix the World". How many Christians understand Jewish mentality? NONE. They believe that God did not make the world perfect! This is opposite of what Christians believe. They then think that they are participants with God in fixing the world! Jewish ideology is about re-uniting all of mankind and they do this thru the marxist ideology of deconstructing race and nation.

This is why the Jews need to be suppressed and their prevention from marrying gentile women. So their messed up soul character does not pass into the European.

Anonymous Gen. Kong April 13, 2012 1:51 PM  

Lucas: No surprise there. As europe gets more and more islamized and socialist, the more they turn against Israel and the Jews. Anti-israelism is a leftist ideology.

This is a Neo-Trotskyite talking point, nothing more. Jewish groups were first and foremost to promote both the open-borders policies of Euro-states and the various anti-free speech laws enshrined there. In France, for example, one can go to jail for mentioning the Soviet mass murders in the Ukraine in the 1930s. Why? Because it violates a French law about "minimizing the uniqueness of the holocaust" - which was pushed by Jews. It was thus more than a little ironic a few weeks ago when one of the numerous Muslims imported into France through the machinations of Jewish groups decided to visit a Hebrew school and kill the rabbi, his two young sons and a little girl - in perfect obedience to the commands of Mohammed.

Anonymous Yorzhik April 13, 2012 1:52 PM  

No, I meant exactly what I wrote. Although it is also true that the Holocaust does not justify Muslim aggression in the Middle East.
The saying is true; if the Muslims quit fighting the Israelis there would be peace and if the Israelis quit fighting the Muslims there would be no Israel.

Sure, Israel is neither good, democratic, or an ally. But as a father you should know one takes care of the problem child first (if you know which it is) before one can deal with a dispute between kids.

Anonymous Frederick303 April 13, 2012 2:19 PM  

W. Lindsay Wheeler

You have given me much to think about, I cannot comment without pondering and researching what you have written.

Cherubs' revenge,

You have gotten the phase "Next year in Jerusalem" modern context wrong. It is a historic reference to the Babylonian exile. Used in the modern sense it is a hopeful comment on any adverse situation one finds oneself in, best translated to "let us hope for a better tomorrow, regardless of the situation we find ourselves in now. Let us not give up in our present travails, there is hope for the future. Keep on trying."

As for them playing from Jerusalem, in my field that would not work, period. My areas of work is one of the areas that creates wealth and has contributed to US exports. I have also seen the favorable works done by Jews in the medical field that could not have been done from overseas. I have seen it first hand. I find it a hard sell that the Jews are somehow a curse to any country they are in. It does not match the historical picture or the one that I have seen.

Anonymous paradox April 13, 2012 2:23 PM  

Here is a very good video about holocaustianity by Michael Hoffman.

Hoffman has researched the Talumd too, long book but Judaism Discovered is very informative about the Pharisee religion.

Anonymous cherub's revenge April 13, 2012 2:58 PM  

Used in the modern sense it is a hopeful comment on any adverse situation one finds oneself in..

Yeah, like their perma-whine about their hardships in White gentile countries. One thing they could easily remedy, yet don't. Hmmm.

I find it a hard sell that the Jews are somehow a curse to any country they are in. It does not match the historical picture or the one that I have seen.

Yeah, your ledger sheet only has a credit column. A sea of red ink to be found there.

Blogger Wes April 13, 2012 3:02 PM  

Vox,

I would be interested in seeing you elaborate on what you mean by "Israeli aggression in the Middle East."

Anonymous cherub's revenge April 13, 2012 3:02 PM  

Like

Trotsky -10,000
Bela Kun -1200
Marx - 50,000
Kaganovich - 35,000
Zinoviev -8,000
Gloria Steinem -1,000,000,000

and on and on and on.

Keep going. Better get on down to Staples and get the bulk box of red pens.

Anonymous 11b April 13, 2012 3:24 PM  

Frederick 303 wrote,"I have to say whenever I have read about groups that wanted to do the Jews wrong; they are generally on the wrong side of what I would consider the good vs. evil conflict. The Nazis, lets kill the problem Utopians, Communists once they have purged the Jews, Muslims since the start, etc all went after Jews once in power."

I have a couple of questions about this passage. First, you write 'Communists once they have purged the Jews' as being one of the groups you consider on the wrong side of the good vs. evil conflict. Does this mean that Communists, before they have purged the Jews, are good?

Second, you write 'Muslims since the start'. Since the start of what, the creation of the modern state of Israel?

Anonymous Frederick303 April 13, 2012 3:28 PM  

No Cherub it is not like that, it is not used as a whine….

Here is an example of context. The first time I heard that phase was after the Presidents Rifle Match @ Camp Perry Ohio. It was and is the one of the more prestigious awards in service rifle shooting in the US, to have a Presidents 100 tab is a rare accomplishment (It is one of 4 tabs you can wear on your uniform like Ranger, Sapper and Special Forces). In any case after a year of careful preparation and match scores that should have placed me solidly in, I flubbed it. Not untypical, the pressure is that high.

A fellow state shorter, Ira, who happens to be Jewish was in the same match and also did not do that well if I recollect. At the mess hall I was rather downbeat, he was upbeat. I asked him why. He had a small smile on his face and said, we both learned from that match, well next year in Jerusalem. Having no idea what that meant so I asked him. He explained. Rather then sitting back and whining about flubbing, take stock, correct what was wrong and move forward towards your goal. It is a positive way of looking at life and while you may never get back to Jerusalem (like the first Babylonian Jews) you will not be a loser if you keep trying.

See Cherub, it is a positive thing, not negative.

Regards

Frederick303

Anonymous Frederick303 April 13, 2012 3:56 PM  

With regards to the Phase” communists once the purged of Jews”

No not that communism was good, (my family has significant eastern European stock, we do not like communists), rather as I am sure you know the early communists in the 1917 to 1934 period had a lot of Jewish utopians and theoreticians. Far more as a percentage of the early inner sanctum than one would expect based on the small percentage of Russian Jews. Cherubs post lists some of the famous ones. Once Trotsky fell from power and Stalin had a few years they were all pretty much purged. Once the leading communist Jews were purged during the 30’s show trials all Jews became a target for the communists, just like they had been a convenient whipping boy in the czarist days.

After WWII and the “doctor’s plot” of 1952, it was intended by Stalin (or so say the soviet histories) that the Jews in Russia would have been fully purged, aka the Hitler solution. Stalin’s death in 1953 stopped that.

Now it is very true that many of the Jews were involved in utopian communist thought in the early 1900s to ….??? But they were ultimately the victims of the revolutions they bought into being and this is true not only in Russia but other countries as well (Mao was very hostile to Jews, that would take quite a while to explain).

There are two ways of looking at this. One is as you do and assume they are hostile to Christian civilization, hence the Communism being some big Jewish plot. The other is to see them in the context of their time, a group of very smart people who were looked down upon and treated very badly in czarist Russia. These despised folk were drawn to the utopian ideals of communism, a new society where every one would be brothers, share alike, there would be no religious strife etc…. It was a vain hope for a better tomorrow. It was foolish and ultimately self defeating. If it was part of a master plot it sure did not work out well.

You may well respond that well the first chief of the secret police was a Jew and they were central to the terror from the start. All true. But as I said these were smart people who turned away from their G-d, they were Jews that embraced making heaven on earth. This is not a uniquely Jewish flaw. Might I point out that other utopian non-Jewish thinkers such as St Thomas More and Calvin broke a few eggs in trying to make their perfect societies (and ultimately failed). Throughout history many bright people have “eaten from the tree of knowledge” and decided they could be like god and rebuild society from the ground up; with very similar, very detrimental results in all cases. What you see as a problem with Jews is actually a problem with smart well educated but ultimately limited human beings who do not have the capacity to see where their mental gymnastics will ultimately end. If the Jews appear in these histories more often that one might expect it is because of their intelligence and successful culture and the common failing of man, not some sinister plot.

At least that is the way I see it.

Regards

Frederick303

Anonymous Frederick303 April 13, 2012 4:05 PM  

With regard to the Muslims comment, it has been years since I read a carful history of Islam, but I recall that in the early days of Mohammed he did quite a bit of fighting and butchering of Jews. A linear read of the Koran, with the chapters put in chronological order (not the presented order) makes clear his increasing hostility to Jews. It was all there in 632 AD.

I was rather surprised when I read that up on that period, as I had read of the relative tolerance during the peak of Islamic civilization in the 1200’s which puts a better face on Islamic attitudes towards Jews. So did not expect to find the inherent hostility, trickery and brutality Mohammed showed to the Jews as clearly as a real history shows. But it is clearly there.

Regards

Frederick303

Blogger W.LindsayWheeler April 13, 2012 4:07 PM  

Fredric, the Jews, in the hopes of "Fixing the World" jump on every single Progressive movement. Communism is Marxism. This movement was started by Karl Marx who gave it a political system and Karl Marx was the student of Rabbi Moses Hess. Communism is thoroughly Jewish with its "Fixing the world", Utopianism, and progressive ideals. They have led this movement.

Anonymous 11b April 13, 2012 4:22 PM  

Frederick303,

The purges of the 1930s did not target Jews, but rather anyone Stalin feared as a potential enemy. But with Jews being overrepresented in the Party, they probably suffered slightly higher than their population numbers would suggest. Stalin at this time promoted laws barring anti-semitism and would try to create a Jewish homeland in the USSR.

Also, if Stalin had been targeting Jews during this time, Jews around the world would have turned on him. Look at how fast Jews in America organized boycotts of Germany once Hitler came to power. You don't see any of that directed against the USSR at this time.

I do believe that Stalin turned on Zionists after 1948 when Israel appeared to be on its way to becoming a US ally. He did not turn on Jews, but on those he felt might be a potential fifth column.

If the state of Israel had never been created, there is reason to believe Stalin would never have felt these people were a potential fifth column, and thus the whole notion of 'communists turning on the Jews' might never have come into play.

Anonymous 11b April 13, 2012 4:34 PM  

Frederick 303 wrote, "With regard to the Muslims comment, it has been years since I read a carful history of Islam, but I recall that in the early days of Mohammed he did quite a bit of fighting and butchering of Jews. A linear read of the Koran, with the chapters put in chronological order (not the presented order) makes clear his increasing hostility to Jews. It was all there in 632 AD."

Keep in mind that Muslims have gotten along well with Jews when they used Jews as agents in taking over and running a Christian land. See how the Moors made use of the Jews in Spain, and after the Reconquista, the Ottomans welcomed many of those Jews to Greece and the Balkans to help water down the locals and run that place.

Now, with the creation of Israel, it's the Muslims who feel that the Christians are using the Jews to run a formerly Muslim land. So understandably Muslims' recent views of Jews is probably not too good.

Anonymous cherub's revenge April 13, 2012 4:38 PM  

But they were ultimately the victims of the revolutions they bought into being and this is true not only in Russia but other countries as well...

Yeah, such victims and Stalin such a targeter of the Jews, that Hungary got its second Jewish Communist dictator after WWII - the Stalin backed and aligned Matyas Rosenfeld.

Boy, you really buy the whole "victim" narrative lock, stock and barrel.

Anonymous Frederick303 April 13, 2012 5:45 PM  

Cherub,

I think I have presented a fairly balanced way of looking at the Jewish history, at least another way that neither sees them as heroes or villains, but what they are: a unique people. You simply seem to want to throw stones at any idea that does not paint them as villians; you put forward no new ideas, other then your rather pedestrian opinions. You certainly have your right in a free society to think as you like, I have mine, I doubt at this point we will reach any sort of meeting of the minds. I think at this point we will simply have to agree to disagree.

Regards

Frederick303

Anonymous cherub's revenge April 13, 2012 5:52 PM  

you put forward no new ideas, other then your rather pedestrian opinions...

Yes, my "pedestrian opinions" unlike your radical prevaricating position, firmly middle of the road and held by...well just about everyone. You thoughtful rebel you.

So balanced you can't even take your own side in an argument.

Anonymous Frederick303 April 13, 2012 5:52 PM  

11B

I never said they were the main target of the purges on the basis of their religious affiliation, but if you look at the numbers of Jewish communists and theoreticians that went to the wall at this time 1934~ 1938, it is hard to say that leading Jewish intellectual figures were not a target of that Georgian thug. Recall that the assassination of the Kirov in 1934 (spelling, can’t quite recall his name) used as an excuse to remove the previous prohibition on the execution of Communist party members. If you look at the lists of the first purged after this, a large percentage were of Jewish extraction. If the main goal was total control (which is what Stalin wanted) eliminating the Jewish communist theoreticians had to be a goal. He achieved it; those that remained were pretty much his dogs and did his bidding as directed.

This is one of the reasons why I tend to see the Jewish love affair with communism in such a tragic light. If they were so worldly wise as some here have suggested, how was it that they allowed power to slip away out of their hands? There is a sort of odd self destructive idealism you see in Jewish thinkers, it is not the harsh self centered realpolitic as some have suggested.

As for Islam in Spain, it is true that latter the Jews saw them as a more favorable light then the christen west. I put that is the same category of the Finns in WWII. They had no choice, they had to ally themselves with either the Germans or the Russians, they were too small otherwise and so had no choice or they would be crushed. They chose the Germans, not because the Germans were leading a crusade to free Europe from Bolshevism, but that allegiance allowed them more freedom to remain Finnish. Likewise the Mediaeval Spanish Jews did not ally themselves with Islam because they loved it, but Islam was more tolerant of the Jews then the west then. That is true, once the Christians took over with the final surrender of Granada in 1492, they soon revoked the treaty of tolerance that had been part of the surrender of the final vizier of Granada. The Sephardic Jews were cast to the four winds or forced to convert. As Islam in Spain allowed them to practice their faith, albeit as second class citizens was that not a rational point for view for the Jews then?

Going back to the first point, if you read about the prophet, you will find a very hostile and virulent behavior towards the Jews, both in the Koran and the detailed chronological history of the prophets spiritual journey from an old widows boy-toy to …………whatever he was when he died. It is not a pretty picture at all. For some reason most popular histories seem to minimize this aspect of Islam. It was not until I read a chronological version of the Koran books, along side of a detailed history of what was occurring during these books that the pattern was fully apparent. Islam and Judaism are absolute enemies at the core of their being.

Anonymous Frederick303 April 13, 2012 6:35 PM  

substitute chapters for books on the Koran in the last post

Anonymous 11b April 13, 2012 6:35 PM  

Likewise the Mediaeval Spanish Jews did not ally themselves with Islam because they loved it, but Islam was more tolerant of the Jews then the west then. That is true, once the Christians took over with the final surrender of Granada in 1492, they soon revoked the treaty of tolerance that had been part of the surrender of the final vizier of Granada. The Sephardic Jews were cast to the four winds or forced to convert. As Islam in Spain allowed them to practice their faith, albeit as second class citizens was that not a rational point for view for the Jews then?

You are suggesting that the Christian treatment of Jews in Spain caused them to ally with the Muslims. What caused the Jews to ally with the Ottomans in Greece?

The point I was originally trying to make was that the Muslims and Jews got along when they were in cahoots running a Christian country. It is easy for the Muslims to be tolerant and generous to the Jews when they are doing it in someone else's land.

As for the Spanish treatment of Jews and Muslims post Reconquista, I don't believe it is as bad as some people make it out to be. If you were a nation that had been undercut by a minority in your midst which led to a 700 year occupation, and there was a new threat in the Ottomans who were regularly raiding your coastline for slaves, would you not want to take steps to remove this fifth column?

If the Spaniards were as bad as we are told, they could have just killed all the non-Christians. But they did not. They allowed them to leave or convert if they wanted to stay. I am sure it was tough for Muslims and Jews at that time, but was it tougher than what happened to other peoples at other times? I think the Inquisition killed about 30K people in 350 years. Compare that to the Armenians in Turkey or the Kulaks in the Ukraine and I think the Spaniards showed some leniency.

The Greeks on the other hand did not do anything against the Jews which would have justified the Jewish collaboration with the Ottomans.

Anonymous Frederick303 April 13, 2012 7:21 PM  

11B,

Regarding you last post (and prior posts), all very good points. Much of recorded history and how one views it is depends on where one stands, is it not so? I am trying to give another side that might not be considered in this debate

Now recall that when the First crusade took over the Holy city in 1099, that they killed all if not most of the Jews they found in the city, at least that my recollection of what I read on the first crusade. Now if in fact the Jews butchered the Christians in 614 as someone else alleged in this thread then perhaps 1099 was a payback for 614. What 614 was a payback for I know not, I have hit my limit of historical knowledge. But in general there is a context to when any group of folks get nasty in history; it rarely comes out of a vacuum.

In any case I suppose my point I do not know the exact mental state of the Greek Jews in the 1450’s to 1838 occupation of Greece. I will take your word for their cooperation with the Muslims. In turn I can see why the Greeks would be pissed off at them when they won their freedom in 1838. It was ever thus………

Anonymous map April 13, 2012 7:46 PM  

Frederick, you are missing a very important point. If Spanish and Christian Europe was so anti-semitic, then why were so many Jews actually living in Spain? If conditions were so bad, then why not leave? Better, why even show up in the first place?

Jews are not indigenous to Europe. How is it that they found their way to such an "intolerant" country. Oh...as agents of the Muslim powers, of course.

Anonymous 11B April 13, 2012 8:58 PM  

Frederick303,

I no doubt admit that there were bad things done by Christians and believe most of these problems arose from groups acting in their own self interests. This seems to play into VD's posts about the dangers of multiculturalism and having such diverse groups living amongst others. I just hope people come to their senses and try to solve our current time bomb as peacefully as possible before history repeats itself.

Anonymous zen0 April 13, 2012 10:03 PM  

W.LindsayWheeler April 13, 2012 4:07 PM

Fredric, the Jews, in the hopes of "Fixing the World" jump on every single Progressive movement. Communism is Marxism. This movement was started by Karl Marx who gave it a political system and Karl Marx was the student of Rabbi Moses Hess. Communism is thoroughly Jewish with its "Fixing the world", Utopianism, and progressive ideals. They have led this movement.


Absolutely correct. The whole concept of fixing the world flies in the face of St. Paul's admonition that the 10 commandments do not lead to redemption.

Leftist-Liberal Jews take this to extremes to justify things that are totally opposite to Torah teaching, but because they are Jews, think they have some kind of warrant to do so

Leftist Jews think they are chosen as a messianic people even though they reject their own God.

What's up with that?

Anonymous paradox April 13, 2012 10:55 PM  

zen0 April 13, 2012 10:03 PM:
Leftist Jews think they are chosen as a messianic people even though they reject their own God.

What's up with that?


It's not just the leftist Judaics, the conservative
Chabad-Lubavitch have their own messiah... Menachem Mendel Schneerson.

The Talmud/Judaic religion has nothing to do with the original Hebrew religion... Here is a great preview video of Michael Hoffman's lecture on Judaism.

Anonymous Ben (son of ) Ben April 13, 2012 11:03 PM  

Ladies and Gentiles,

I do not think that there is a vast plot by we of the tribe to undermine western civilization. We put put our hats on over over horns, one spike at a time, just like everyone else. No wait, just kidding.

Oh Vey!

Some of you folks really are over the top. If the Jewish folks had such power, do you think we would have the troubles we have had throughout history? Strange, I have not gotten the memo on destroying America, the one country that has allowed full citizenship, no programs, equality, etc. Of course it would be in Jewish interest to destroy that?! Think about what you are saying. Plenty of Jews have fought for and died for the US, it is an insult to their memory, just like it was an insult when they sent off the Germans Jewish winners of the iron cross to camps during WWII

How did you figure out our master plan that we don't even know about! Did someone read the Protocols of Zion? darn it! Who let the cat out of the bag?

To turn it around, this would be like if I put forward the following argument:

I believe the Germans and those of German blood are plotting to restore the 3rd Reich, at least most of them, Sure when you get to know them they all act nice, but in their homes they have a shrine to dear old Adolf, and when they think no one is looking the drill their armies in the basement. Those crazy Germans you just can not trust them. Then list a bunch of bad things from German history. See how silly it is?

Well I am sure you will all take a pot shot at me, go ahead.

By the way, we are coming to take your young women too.

Anonymous ben tillman April 13, 2012 11:41 PM  

Some of you folks really are over the top. If the Jewish folks had such power, do you think we would have the troubles we have had throughout history?

That is a ridiculous argument. No one has claimed that Jews had "such power" everywhere at all times throughout history.

Anonymous 11B April 14, 2012 1:24 AM  

Ben (son of) Ben wrote, "I do not think that there is a vast plot by we of the tribe to undermine western civilization. "

I don't think most people believe there is a secret meeting place where the Tribe plots our destruction. Rather I believe they have different group interests, and therefore advocate policies from time to time that might be good for them, but not necessarily the dominate population.

For example, Jews believe that Islamic Spain was better for them than Catholic Spain. They might be correct. However, I imagine the Catholic Spaniards felt otherwise which is why they spent 700 years trying to get their nation back. Jews would have been OK had the Reconquista never occurred.

The Greeks and others in the Balkans did not want to be occupied by the Ottomans. The Jews who were brought in from Spain probably felt the Ottomans had provided them refuge and were happy to keep them.

Now in the USA we have a debate about whether we want to remain a European, Christian nation or become a multicultural, universal nation. Well, we really didn't have a debate, it was sort of forced onto us, but that's another discussion.

If individual Jews feel they are a separate group, and are weary of being surrounded by a monoculture, then a secret meeting would not be necessary for them to conclude that it is more desirable for the USA to become more multicultural.

So the notion of the secret cabal plotting our destruction is far fetched. It is more believable that Jews, a small group, have different views and concerns than the larger population and act accordingly.

Anonymous Barko Ramius April 14, 2012 4:46 AM  

I dont see how a guilt assuaging awakening amongst the mpai masses will change things. If anything, it would provide yet another victim card that keeps the cycle in motion. The damage is done, like that image of Wheeler singing Hebrew songs in a synogogue that keeps rolling aroung my grillage

Anonymous HardReturn April 14, 2012 8:40 AM  

I've noticed in recent years I don't get as many glares as I used to for putting Holocaust into context as one horrible chapter in a series of wholesale slaughters (Ottoman Empire, USSR, China, Kampuchea, etc.). The fact that these slaughters happened under various circumstances in various places demonstrates governments' somewhat generic latent capacity to liquidate "undesirables." A chronic capacity to commit atrocities is more sobering that rationalizing it as an isolated event in history.

Anonymous E. PERLINE April 14, 2012 11:59 AM  

The human brain is supposedly 160,000 years old (divide that by how many years you think a generation is) and you get an awful lot of generations.

But a mere 3,000 years have been recorded as history. Some engineers say only space aliens had the ability to handle the big stones. Who knows.

What we can be certain of is that a desire to slaughter our fellow humans goes back many generations.

It comes from an anomaly in our brain that fixes and remembers anger. Since we resist shedding anger, maybe we need space aliens to help us.

Anonymous W. PERLINE April 14, 2012 12:06 PM  

I meant multiply by the generations.

Blogger rcocean April 14, 2012 5:56 PM  

"11b" makes a good point about various groups having different interests and views. Plenty of Jews & Germans didn't like it when the Austro-Hungarian Empire broke up - needless to say the Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Serbs, etc. felt differently.

I've noticed a undercurrent of hostility between Poles and Jews. I wonder if that's due to Jews liking the German and Austro-Hungarian Empires.

Blogger Emanuel Goldstein April 15, 2012 10:32 PM  

So Vox thinks the Nazis Jewish victims were not "completely innocent scapegoats".

OK, Vox...so tell us how guilty they were and how many Jews deserved to die?

Anonymous FrankNorman April 16, 2012 7:19 AM  

Emanuel Goldstein April 15, 2012 10:32 PM

So Vox thinks the Nazis Jewish victims were not "completely innocent scapegoats".

OK, Vox...so tell us how guilty they were and how many Jews deserved to die?


Vox seems to be falling prey to the same sort of Collectivist thinking he so rightly denounces - that of blaming an entire race of people for the actions of a few members of it.

How is it just or fair to hold a Jewish person living in a ghetto in Poland responsible for the actions of New York bankers, simply because they and he are of the same race?

If Wheeler's interpretation is correct, and the death camps were "payback" for "The Jews" causing WW2/Communism/The Great Depression/Germany's defeat in WW1/whatever, then Hitler took out his revenge on the wrong people.

Blogger Emanuel Goldstein April 16, 2012 8:00 AM  

The Jews in World War Two did not fight back in any organized fashion, except is isolated instances.

That has changed.

And it makes the World mad as hell.

The Jews aren't going to just sit back and wait for the Second Holocaust now being planned.

Anonymous FrankNorman April 16, 2012 8:16 AM  

Emanuel Goldstein April 16, 2012 8:00 AM

The Jews in World War Two did not fight back in any organized fashion, except is isolated instances.

That has changed.

And it makes the World mad as hell.

The Jews aren't going to just sit back and wait for the Second Holocaust now being planned.


Are you talling about Iran?

Anonymous ogg April 16, 2012 4:02 PM  

How is it just or fair to hold a Jewish person living in a ghetto in Poland responsible for the actions of New York bankers, simply because they and he are of the same race?

When so many of them seem prone to liberal/left/cosmopolitan attitudes, then it is time to stop "judging everyone individually" like the special snowflake that they are, and instead save yourself time and energy and make a few broad strokes.

Blogger Emanuel Goldstein April 17, 2012 7:19 AM  

egg, you mean like the Holocaust?

That was a "broad stroke".

You little coward.

Just don't whine when the Jews fight back this time.

Anonymous FrankNorman April 17, 2012 9:24 AM  

Goldy, who do you think is planning a "Second Holocaust"?

Blogger Emanuel Goldstein April 17, 2012 1:32 PM  

Don't call me "Goldy" if you want an answer.

Anonymous Has read Orwell April 19, 2012 5:20 AM  

"Don't call me "Goldy" if you want an answer."

Would you prefer to be addressed as "Big Brother"?

Anonymous Anonymous April 25, 2012 6:52 PM  

VoxDay: "You're wrong. They dominate in many fields because they practice harsh discrimination against everyone who isn't Jewish."

I guess Jews somehow infiltrated the Nobel Prize committee, too. Jews have won 20% of nobel prizes, yet comprise only 0.2% of the population. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_Nobel_laureates).

Your theory is bunk, and does not explain Jews' success. However, it does expose your prejudice.

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