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Thursday, May 03, 2012

MF Global, Mark II

Ann Barnhardt says it's time to get out of the markets entirely:
The Penson ship is going down, it appears. They were in trouble last year when MF Global happened and were looking to dump their European divisions, and they did bounce a bit after MF Global when they unloaded their Aussie holdings, but it looks like it is all but over for them. The stock is cratering, and there is chatter on the net that they are taking forever to get cash withdrawls out, posted and cleared. That's a very bad sign. MF global was the same way in the weeks before the end. The extreme danger is that the CME is going to do with Penson what they did with MF Global and NOT backstop and keep customers liquid when the end comes. MF Global proved that the CME is no longer going to fulfill its fiduciary duty and will screw clients twelve ways from Sunday without hesitation. DO NOT get caught up in that crap. Just get out of the whole, stinking, festering, putrefied mess. Get out of the markets ENTIRELY.
If you've still got your money in the markets, you really need to think again. Something like 90 percent of the trading is now just machines trading with other machines. The brokers are using their customers' money as a backstop and the regulators aren't stopping them. You'd arguably be better off, and have a better time, simply going to Vegas and playing blackjack. No one knows when the entire mass of corruption and crap will finally melt down under its own weight, all we really know is that it's eventually going to happen. But MF Global has taught us that there are no consequences for the financial industry's criminal shenanigans. No one is going to stop them, most likely because everyone on the inside knows that as soon as the music stops, it all comes crashing down.

Labels:

174 Comments:

Blogger Nate May 03, 2012 1:00 PM  

Ruthless option 1 for the common man:

Borrow against your 401k...as much as you can.. take the proceeds and go buy gold... or silver... whichever.

Blogger Giraffe May 03, 2012 1:03 PM  

Ann Barnhardt. She makes a lot of sense, but she is also foaming-at-the-mouth crazy. That is probably why she even sees this coming.

This is like watching the end of the of the world in slow motion. You have Vox and Ann giving their warnings, making predictions that come true. And you have everyone else, totally oblivious. It adds a certain surreal quality to it.

On a good note, the ilk family is +1 as of Monday. A third girl at the giraffe house.

Blogger Nate May 03, 2012 1:16 PM  

Congrats old man!

Anonymous Orion May 03, 2012 1:18 PM  

Hey, S&P upgraded Greece from default on sovereign debt. Could always park some there if your feeling lucky.

Anonymous Mr. Nightstick May 03, 2012 1:21 PM  

Congrats Giraffe, that's alot of weddings to pay for.

But didn't same famous dead guy say something like it's better to kill a man than make him poor? I feel bad for whoever gets blamed for this mess, their days will be the worse of us all.

Anonymous ODG May 03, 2012 1:21 PM  

Are you saying get out of equities and into cash, or totally cash out the 401K and take the penalties?

Anonymous Josh May 03, 2012 1:25 PM  

congrats giraffe

Blogger Giraffe May 03, 2012 1:28 PM  

Congrats Giraffe, that's alot of weddings to pay for.

I know. Maybe I won't have to pay for college. If tradition says the father of the bride pays for the wedding, I may have to get even more traditional. The young man will have to give me a herd of cattle or something. These girls are going to be very beautiful, and I am going to raise them right. That ought to be worth something. Either that, or it's sloppy joes and a cake made from a box.

Anonymous Joshua_D May 03, 2012 1:36 PM  

Giraffe May 03, 2012 1:28 PM
... or it's sloppy joes and a cake made from a box.


What do you mean, or?

Anonymous Stingray May 03, 2012 1:41 PM  

Maybe I won't have to pay for college.

Someone asked me a bit ago what we were going to push our girls towards as far as college as most degrees are so utterly useless. I said I would teach them to be good wives or there is always the convent. The return look was priceless. He then asked what about my son? . . . Farming.

Congratulations, Giraffe.

Anonymous Gen. Kong May 03, 2012 1:41 PM  

All they have to do is keep the charades going until the next Prezident of the United Stasi of Amerika is erected, the Honorable Willard Hussein Obamney. After that, the DHS and military can enforce the martial law once the house of cards comes tumbling down.

Blogger Nate May 03, 2012 1:41 PM  

"Are you saying get out of equities and into cash, or totally cash out the 401K and take the penalties?"

I thought I just explained how to avoid the penalties?

Anonymous Noah B. May 03, 2012 1:43 PM  

The only way to really "get out of the markets" is to be broke. If you have valuable assets of any kind, you are in a market of some sort. That's not to say that all markets are equal. I like Nate's strategy a lot better than the ones recommended by typical financial advisers, but doing that is not without risk. If a large scale CME disruption occurs while you're waiting to receive your goods, you just might be screwed.

The point is, there is no foolproof strategy and no certain way to eliminate risk. Whatever you decide to do, it's important to consider the risks involved and prepare accordingly. Think unconventionally. Consider that government decree could ban possession of precious metals or that burglaries and home invasions could become much, much more commonplace. Consider that states could raise property taxes to levels such that few can afford them. Consider that a banking collapse could occur on a scale that would reveal the powerlessness of the FDIC. Consider that the government could suddenly announce a plan to replace the currency and give individuals a limited time period, if any, to exchange old currency for new.

Personally, I see little advantage to being invested in publicly traded stocks, bonds of any kind, or residential real estate. Diversifying into a wide variety of commodities that you physically possess, some cash, some money in the bank, productive farm land, and productive, commodity related businesses seems like a good option to me.

Anonymous Noah B. May 03, 2012 1:45 PM  

If you have 401(k) money, also consider a self-directed IRA. Tons of information available about them on the web.

Blogger Giraffe May 03, 2012 1:47 PM  

@Stickwick

I said I would teach them to be good wives or there is always the convent.

Exactly.

My oldest seems like she is going to be a smart one. They can go to college if they get a full scholarship. If I raise them right I would hope they don't want to.

But, if Nate's boys are going to be housewives too, there will need to be doctors to support them.

Anonymous Gen. Kong May 03, 2012 1:47 PM  

Congratulations, Giraffe. A good friend of mine with two daughters mentioned that he had the cleanest guns in the county once they started dating. The boys they brought home always looked a bit like deer in headlights at the sight of all the artillery spread out on the table with a view of the adjacent woodland in the picture window.

Anonymous jay c May 03, 2012 1:49 PM  

Congratulations, Giraffe!

Anonymous jartstar May 03, 2012 1:50 PM  

Noah speaks the truth. There is no risk free place to store wealth. You have to decide for yourself the risks and opportunities.

Anonymous ODG May 03, 2012 1:51 PM  

"I thought I just explained how to avoid the penalties?"

Except that I still have to pay the loan back...and can only take ~50%.

Anonymous Larry Kudlow May 03, 2012 1:51 PM  

Relax, people. I've got green shoots coming out my ass.

Anonymous catahoula May 03, 2012 1:52 PM  

Salvation, B, b, b, paid for homestead in the mountains, spring water, wood heat, pigs, chickens, good dog, hand tools, open pollinated garden seed enough to feed the neighborhood, and the hope it's not going to be as bad as it probably will be.

The husband and I play "what if we wake up tomorrow and it's 1850...."

Anonymous Stingray May 03, 2012 1:53 PM  

GIraffe,

My son is four. Let's hook them up.

Blogger Astrosmith May 03, 2012 1:56 PM  

Congrats, Giraffe! Later this year, if all goes well, the Astro household will have another member as well!

Blogger Giraffe May 03, 2012 1:56 PM  

My daughter is four.

Anonymous Stingray May 03, 2012 1:58 PM  

There you go, though I see wisdom in girls marrying older men . . . . ; )

Anonymous Geoff-UK May 03, 2012 1:58 PM  

@ODG,

What you think you should do is dependent on what level of trust you have in the future of bonds, equities, or even THE US DOLLARS IN WHICH THEY ARE DENOMINATED. If you have zero faith in all the above, you would transition all wealth into non-fiat currency. IOW, gold coins and junk silver, stored underground or hidden in property you own--don't trust a bank safe deposit box.

If you're going to be REALLY paranoid (which I strongly recommend), buy a Fisch coin validator (worth their weight in AU), then go to a coin show and pay cash for your coins. No receipts. Don't buy online--those records will be reviewed.

Blogger Giraffe May 03, 2012 1:58 PM  

A good friend of mine with two daughters mentioned that he had the cleanest guns in the county once they started dating.

I intend to employ a similar strategy, although I just arranged a marriage with Stickwick's son. One down, two to go.

Blogger Giraffe May 03, 2012 1:59 PM  

There you go, though I see wisdom in girls marrying older men . . . . ; )

Hey, I got you covered, Leah is four days.

Anonymous Geoff-UK May 03, 2012 2:00 PM  

@ODG,

Seriously regret not saying the following at top of my previous: if you don't already own a boat-load of guns, ammo, "safety" vest, freeze-dried food, water barrels and water purifiers, and security-up your house...well then buy those FIRST! THEN and ONLY then, buy wealth storage mechanisms to transition to the other side of the coming unpleasantness.

Anonymous Stingray May 03, 2012 2:02 PM  

Beautiful name. And so as there is no in-law confusion, Stingray. People get Stickwick and I confused because of the S-T-I, I think.

Anonymous James Dixon May 03, 2012 2:04 PM  

> Noah speaks the truth. There is no risk free place to store wealth. You have to decide for yourself the risks and opportunities.

Absolutely. Gold and silver are not risk free, though they're safer bets than a lot of options at the moment.

We still have a fair amount of our money in dividend paying equities which we think can survive the coming years, but that's not for everyone.

Blogger Giraffe May 03, 2012 2:04 PM  

Sorry. I wish I could claim sleep deprivation, but last night was Mrs. G's turn.

Anonymous Stingray May 03, 2012 2:06 PM  

No problem. 4 days old. So little sleep, so many snuggles. Awesome age.

Anonymous Mr. Nightstick May 03, 2012 2:06 PM  

I like Ann but have an extreme natural distrust of spinsters. Can anyone shed light on her spinsterism that might make it more palatable?

Blogger Giraffe May 03, 2012 2:09 PM  

Ruthless option 1 for the common man:

Borrow against your 401k...as much as you can.. take the proceeds and go buy gold... or silver... whichever.


A good reason for using this method: You can do it without records. They might come confiscating again.

But, don't borrow against a 401k, if you lose your job you have to pay it back right now, or pay the penalties. This strategy is for the self directed IRA unless the above risk is acceptable to you.

Blogger Giraffe May 03, 2012 2:11 PM  

Beautiful name. And so as there is no in-law confusion, Stingray. People get Stickwick and I confused because of the S-T-I, I think.

And because of your uncommon female wisdom.

Blogger Nate May 03, 2012 2:15 PM  

People...

Who said anything about paying back the loan?

I thought it was a given that you would tell them to piss off.

Anonymous Mr. Nightstick May 03, 2012 2:21 PM  

If you don't pay it back, it becomes a distribution subject to the IRS plus the payments are automatically deducted from your paycheck prior to losing your job, at least that's how they do it at my job.

So it might work if the loan isn't paid back via automatic payroll deduction and you don't mind paying the extra taxes or aren't afraid of the IRS or tax board of your state.

Blogger Giraffe May 03, 2012 2:23 PM  

Who said anything about paying back the loan?

We got it. But there are instances where the tax and penalty come due. Like if you lose your job, or perhaps if you don't make your payments. Telling the IRS gestapo to piss off might not work too well.

Anonymous Stingray May 03, 2012 2:23 PM  

Giraffe,

Thank you.

(Wow, you made me blush online. That can't be easy. ; ) )

Anonymous Stickray May 03, 2012 2:25 PM  

Stingwick sez: And so as there is no in-law confusion, Stingray. People get Stickwick and I confused because of the S-T-I, I think.

We're interchangeable now. :^D

Anyway ... congratulations, Giraffe! That's wonderful!

Anonymous Stingwick May 03, 2012 2:26 PM  

HA! I think I may just have to change my handle now! Well done!

Anonymous Gen. Kong May 03, 2012 2:26 PM  

Larry Kudlow: Relax, people. I've got green shoots coming out my ass.

No way. Obi-Wan has informed me that those are no green shoots, but tentacles of a vampire-squid, the blood-funnels folded inwards.

Anonymous Larry Kudlow May 03, 2012 2:33 PM  

No wonder the Preparation H ain't working!

Anonymous Stickwick May 03, 2012 2:35 PM  

Mr. Nightstick: I like Ann but have an extreme natural distrust of spinsters. Can anyone shed light on her spinsterism that might make it more palatable?

I like her, too, but she's a curious woman. When she gained some notoriety with her bacon-bookmark Koran readings, she apparently got several marriage proposals. She commented that she was flattered, but that she was not marriage material because she regarded herself as a buzz-saw crossed with a blowtorch and was best appreciated from a distance. The usual don't-trust-what-women-say-about-themselves rule might apply here.

Anonymous VD May 03, 2012 2:47 PM  

Congratulations, Giraffe.

Blogger Nate May 03, 2012 2:48 PM  

"We got it. But there are instances where the tax and penalty come due. Like if you lose your job, or perhaps if you don't make your payments. Telling the IRS gestapo to piss off might not work too well."

You're going to be paying taxes on it either way. so that can't be considered a loss. You won't be paying tax on the accumulation of value in the gold or silver.

Now obviously the plan works better with a job change.

Blogger Spacebunny May 03, 2012 2:51 PM  

Congratulations Giraffe - I would encourage elopement ;^)

Blogger Nate May 03, 2012 3:01 PM  

"I intend to employ a similar strategy, although I just arranged a marriage with Stickwick's son. One down, two to go."

Arranged Marriage.

F. T. W.

Anonymous The One May 03, 2012 3:06 PM  

Sorry, but this is complete crap. You can easily make money, more so because machines trade the market. Look how much you could of made buying Apple or shorting Netflix. Now is the market a good 30 yr investment, no, but time frame is everything.

Blogger Giraffe May 03, 2012 3:12 PM  

Thank you VD, Spacebunny, and all the Dread Ilk.

Anonymous Wendy May 03, 2012 3:18 PM  

I intend to employ a similar strategy, although I just arranged a marriage with Stickwick's son. One down, two to go.

Congrats Giraffe! I've an almost four month old boy...

But, if Nate's boys are going to be housewives too, there will need to be doctors to support them.

Well played sir.

As for the markets, can't they just put all the bigwigs in jail for insider trading? Martha Stewart was small potatoes in comparison.

Anonymous daddynichol May 03, 2012 3:22 PM  

On a good note, the ilk family is +1 as of Monday. A third girl at the giraffe house.

Great news and congratulations to all.

Anonymous Clay May 03, 2012 3:23 PM  

Congratulations, Giraffe!

Blogger Astrosmith May 03, 2012 3:45 PM  

Mr. Nightstick May 03, 2012 2:06 PM
I like Ann but have an extreme natural distrust of spinsters. Can anyone shed light on her spinsterism that might make it more palatable?

I don't know, but I don't think I could be married to someone who's always fussing about being a super-Catholic-everything or else you don't love Jesus and Mary enough. Perhaps she should have gone to the convent, but she wanted to be a trader instead.

Blogger John Regan May 03, 2012 3:51 PM  

It's a good idea to get totally out for lots of reasons:

http://strikelawyer.wordpress.com/2012/05/03/interesting-developments/

I've been figuring that rates will go up soon. Bondholders will squeal like stuck pigs, but what can a central bank do?

Blogger Nate May 03, 2012 3:57 PM  

"But, if Nate's boys are going to be housewives too, there will need to be doctors to support them."

Remember Vox's post about aristocracy... then think a little bit about what Nate's boys are going to be up to.

Anonymous Mr. Nightstick May 03, 2012 4:01 PM  

Buggery and genetic diseases?

Blogger Kentucky Packrat May 03, 2012 4:02 PM  

The One: Sorry, but this is complete crap. You can easily make money, more so because machines trade the market. Look how much you could of made buying Apple or shorting Netflix. Now is the market a good 30 yr investment, no, but time frame is everything.

Would you go the carnival and decide that paying the "$1 earns you $5" games are a good investment? No, of course not. Why? The game is rigged.

The number one rule of exchanges was to guarantee that the customer's money STAYED the customer's money. MF Global got up to its eyeballs in losing futures bets, and got called by its counter parties. It guaranteed some transactions using its customers' cash, and paid others up using customer account cash. The CME is supposed to step in and force the counterparties to not take customer cash, but they didn't. Instead, the big banks got made whole, and the little people eat it.

Just how secure is your broker? If he's a little one, how about the people actually handling the trading? Willing to bet that they're absolutely clean and debt-free? If they're like the other houses, they're probably up to their eyeballs in questionable paper trying, like a desperate junky, for 1 more percent of returns. When the house of cards fall, you no longer own that money, you're just another unsecured creditor.

At least Vegas recognizes that it's your money they're stealing. The big banks, etc. know it's theirs.

Anonymous cheddarman May 03, 2012 4:03 PM  

Mr. Nightstick May 03, 2012 2:06 PM
"I like Ann but have an extreme natural distrust of spinsters. Can anyone shed light on her spinsterism that might make it more palatable?"


she needs to meet a godly single man that understands game...i would be up for the challenge, but i am trying to start a sort of low tech-bio tech company to make a specialty enzyme product...if i carried her off viking style, it would be to my parents basement full fo my experiments

Anonymous harry12 May 03, 2012 4:04 PM  

Today, Karl Denninger has some very interesting charts up on his Market-Ticker site.
He calls it: A trip down memory lane folks....

Anonymous FUBAR Nation (Ben) May 03, 2012 4:06 PM  

I'm a contrarian so I am going to take the opposite trade: buy the dip.

Anonymous Vidad May 03, 2012 4:08 PM  

@Giraffe

Congrats!!! I like to see people like you making children. Many, many children.

We actually just had our sixth last week - a boy. We were trying for a daughter, but got another boy (this is our fifth).

I'm just riddled with so much testosterone I can't seem to pull off a second girl. The night she was conceived must've been during that mad Billy Joel album binge I fell into.

Anonymous harry12 May 03, 2012 4:08 PM  

Congrats to Giraffe ( and Mrs. Giraffe ).

Anonymous Vidad May 03, 2012 4:11 PM  

@Nate

I killed my retirement funds in '07, took the tax hit, and bought silver dollars with the remainder. It paid out well.

I appreciate the other method, but I made a vow not to be in debt - even if justified - so I just couldn't pull the trigger. Almost took a home equity line to buy gold back at $800-900 per oz... didn't do it. Would've been a good deal, too.

But... that vow! That vow!

Blogger Nate May 03, 2012 4:13 PM  

stupid vow... and its not really going into debt if you never intend on paying it back. Its more like.. cashing out bank stupidity.

Anonymous Vidad May 03, 2012 4:14 PM  

@Vox

I've been expecting the other shoe to drop on this mess. It's just been such a slow-motion collapse it's made me antsy. Only have a few grand in the markets now. I think you're right on Getting Out, though. I may pull the trigger soon and take the last little out.

My resources are now allocated thus:

1. Children
2. Paid-off house
3. Metals (including lead)
4. Fruit trees
5. Gold stocks
6. Firearms
7. Tools

Blogger Nate May 03, 2012 4:14 PM  

HA!

In 2012 home equity lines of credit should actually be called a Market Call on Bank Stupidity.

Anonymous Vidad May 03, 2012 4:16 PM  

@Nate

I know, I know.

But I'll tell you what... taking that vow made my financial choices much simpler. It may perhaps be an arbitrary marker, but it's a useful, if personal, Polaris.

Blogger Giraffe May 03, 2012 4:17 PM  

Congrats!!! I like to see people like you making children. Many, many children.

We figure this will be our last. I wanted a boy, but based on my track record, it doesn't seem to be in the cards. There are several reasons we think we should quit, both medical and financial, so we are leaning that way.

Congrats to you too, I knew you were getting close.

I just figured out why you use the name Vidad MacGooden. I am sharp as an elbow I tell you.

Blogger Nate May 03, 2012 4:20 PM  

A very good investment option:

Cash out and use the funds to purchase the means to make booze... and learn to do so.

Blogger Giraffe May 03, 2012 4:22 PM  

Cash out and use the funds to purchase the means to make booze... and learn to do so.

Or cigarettes, or guns. We actually could have the ATF as a convenience store.

Anonymous Stickwick May 03, 2012 4:28 PM  

"I intend to employ a similar strategy, although I just arranged a marriage with Stickwick's son. One down, two to go."

Arranged Marriage.

F. T. W.


He meant Stingray's son, but, heck, I'm willing to sign up for the Sons and Daughters of the Ilk Betrothal Programme, too.

Anonymous Vidad May 03, 2012 4:33 PM  

@Nate

Heh heh heh. Been there... done that... bought the (hic) t-shirt.

We think way too much alike. Other than on guns and computers.

Anonymous Vidad May 03, 2012 4:34 PM  

@Giraffe

I'm growing tobacco, too. Really good idea to keep some around the garden.

Anonymous Daniel May 03, 2012 4:41 PM  

I think everyone's missing the unexpected upturn that will occur when the funny little money game all comes due, the play ends, the curtain goes up, and Paul Krugman and Ben Bernake are caught on stage, inflating the lower intestines of Lloyd Blankfein with the gas emmitted from one of Christine Lagarde's speeches.

When the Blank busts, painting Paul and Ben in blackface, they'll put on a minstrel show for all of us.

Won't that be worth the trillions of destroyed wealth?

Blogger Nate May 03, 2012 4:41 PM  

@Vidad

Don't feel bad mate... my wife has a glock after all... and an iphone too.

Blogger Giraffe May 03, 2012 4:44 PM  

I'm growing tobacco, too. Really good idea to keep some around the garden.

So, Master Gardener, does tobacco grow in Zone 4?

Anonymous Stingray May 03, 2012 4:45 PM  

Weed. Lots and lots of weed.

Blogger Nate May 03, 2012 4:46 PM  

@vidad

What tobacco variety are you growing?

Blogger Astrosmith May 03, 2012 4:47 PM  

Vox, this is too good:
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/01/on-the-uselessness-of-debates/?utm_source=readme&utm_medium=rightrail&utm_term=&utm_content=3&utm_campaign=recirc

Anonymous cheddarman May 03, 2012 4:53 PM  

I got all of you preppers beat, in terms of value added propositions...I can make my own antibiotics from dirt (isolate antibiotic producing micro-organisms from soil)...at least my degree may have some value after the SHTF...i need to team up with some of you folks, we may be on top when the dust settles

Anonymous Mr. Nightstick May 03, 2012 5:03 PM  

Why make it from dirt when you can make it from beer?

Anonymous Stickwick May 03, 2012 5:17 PM  

Why make anything from beer when you can make beer?

Anonymous rycamor May 03, 2012 5:19 PM  

I got all of you preppers beat, in terms of value added propositions...I can make my own antibiotics from dirt (isolate antibiotic producing micro-organisms from soil)...at least my degree may have some value after the SHTF...i need to team up with some of you folks, we may be on top when the dust settles

Interesting stuff, and yes indeed. I'm trying to learn from Vidad's gardening wisdom already... got some of his tobacco hanging up right now, and I'm gradually converting family from supermarket food to homegrown. I've also got a buddy from my last job who is a garage brewmeister. His beers compete nicely with some of the better commercial ones.

Me... well I might be of assistance in helping create the alternate internet when the time comes.

Anonymous Mr. Nightstick May 03, 2012 5:20 PM  

You didn't read the article. Beer was the means of making it and the delivery system. Best of both worlds.

Blogger Nate May 03, 2012 5:34 PM  

Tobacco can be grown in Alaska. Its a tough damned weed.

Anonymous rycamor May 03, 2012 5:53 PM  

Yes, and one tobacco seed pod can plant at least a whole acre.

Blogger Giraffe May 03, 2012 5:54 PM  

I neither smoke, nor drink (much), so growing tobacco or making booze is probably not that great an idea for me. One should know whether or not your product is any good.

Anonymous patrick kelly May 03, 2012 6:00 PM  

Stickwick: "Why make anything from beer when you can make beer?" LOL, thanks, made my day.

Anonymous Vidad May 03, 2012 6:32 PM  

@Nate

I'm growing a small-leafed Cuban variety. Cigar tobacco.

If anyone wants seeds, drop me a note: david (at) goodmanshow.com

I may get a hold of some burley next, though keeping varieties from crossing is a pain. Might alternate years or put patches in front and back of the house. Some of my Cuban tobacco has taken to self-seeding here and there in the yard already.

@cheddarman

That is really sweet. What is your degree?

I've cultivated some interesting medicinal plants, such as Wormwood and Senna Alata... but synthesizing antibiotics is beyond me at this point.

Okay, Vox... time for a "Ilk Apocalypse Skills Roll Call" post?

Maybe a community cookbook?

"Here's my family recipe for Datura pollen brain salve..."

Blogger Nate May 03, 2012 6:50 PM  

@vidad

Nice! Did ya start it inside or did ya just throw it out all over the field and see what happens?

Blogger ajw308 May 03, 2012 6:51 PM  

Who said anything about paying back the loan?

We got it. But there are instances where the tax and penalty come due. Like if you lose your job, or perhaps if you don't make your payments. Telling the IRS gestapo to piss off might not work too well.


Been there, done that. The worst the IRS will do is after a few years of nasty-grams, demand you pay tax on the money you borrowed.

Here's the wisdom of what Nate's suggesting: You have $100 in a 401k and you borrow $50 and then the market tanks to 20%. You have $50 in your pocket and $10 in the 401k for a net worth of $60 compared to $20 in the 401k if you do nothing.

It's good advice.

Giraffe, contrats on the daughter. I'm happy for you and your family.

Anonymous Mr. Nightstick May 03, 2012 7:02 PM  

Did you pay the tax?

Anonymous Vidad May 03, 2012 7:08 PM  

@Nate

For my cultivated patches, I started it in flats that I misted at least once daily. Then I thin them out, give them a month or so, and then take the best to transplant to a second flat, further apart. When they get really big, it's off to the main garden.

The ones that self-seeded mostly came from a few plants I randomly placed in places like my wife's rose garden.

I've broadcast things like lettuce around, but haven't done it with tobacco yet.

My tobacco video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2AiXJA7BsQ&list=UU208478ECji1rdkDDbB0vHQ&index=7&feature=plcp

Blogger Nate May 03, 2012 7:32 PM  

nice. Very nice indeed.

I should share my container sub-irrigation system with you guys.

Drain pipe... curled into the bottom of large bed containers... pvc pipe sticking up ... every three weeks or so you take the hose over and fill them up. all done.

Blogger ajw308 May 03, 2012 7:35 PM  

Mr. Nightstick, they came and took the tax. Nothing more, but took them years.

Anonymous cheddarman May 03, 2012 7:38 PM  

Vidad,

my degree is in food science, but i have done a lot of reading and branched off in several directions of interest...anyone could make thier own antibiotics, if they had the desire to do so, and the aptitude to learn a few techniques

Blogger Nate May 03, 2012 7:54 PM  

I am envisioning the Dreak Ilk standing in line while Headly Lamar asks... "Qualifications?"

Anonymous Stingray May 03, 2012 8:06 PM  

"Where are all the white women at?!"

(I'm sorry, I'm sorry. That one is utterly irresistible.)

Anonymous Stingray May 03, 2012 8:22 PM  

Vidad,

I just watched your video on intercropping. Can you recommend any good books on this? I have a sadly small space to garden in and this would be ideal for us. Also, have any experience with fruit trees? We own land, only it is 45 minutes away and I was thinking of starting some fruit trees out there now. I didn't know how well they would fair with little care.

Anonymous Stingray May 03, 2012 8:24 PM  

Nate, consider those questions directed at you as well, if you don't mind. I'm trying to expand our garden every year, but I think faster expansion is going to be necessary.

Anonymous Brian May 03, 2012 8:40 PM  

At least Vegas recognizes that it's your money they're stealing. The big banks, etc. know it's theirs.

What everyone's missing here is that it's NOT our money, it's theirs. Says FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE on it. It belongs to them, and they can take it back whenever they want. That's why nobody's being prosecuted; it's technically legal. I wouldn't be surprised if being Indian Givers with our money is part of the end game. Not at all

Anonymous Zum May 03, 2012 8:44 PM  

Hmm, saw my neighbor a few days ago had a big uhaul pulled up to his house. We thought they were getting a divorce, as he just came back from a big job overseas building a whiskey plant. Turns out, they're walking away and bought something much cheaper (ours was a foreclosure).

We've got a raised garden, but the sub-irrigation systems look awesome. Definitely going to try it!

Blogger Nate May 03, 2012 8:54 PM  

Fruit trees are.. without question... an amazing option. The production amount you get from one or two mature pear trees for example will simply feed armies. Or at least it seems that way. Right now we have Plum, Lemon, Cumquat, Satsuma, and Pears. We like large container gardening... but the soil we have is so good we have some plots as well. My advice on trees... by a bunch of whatever you like and plant the hell out of them. Water them every day and stand back.

Blogger Nate May 03, 2012 8:56 PM  

"We've got a raised garden, but the sub-irrigation systems look awesome. Definitely going to try it!"

I just used corrugated drain pipe. Make sure you use the socks though. and you have to line your containers with something to make them hold water. decent quality tarp will work.. vinyl will work better. But nothing makes a better container than an old bathtub!

Blogger Nate May 03, 2012 8:58 PM  

@Stingray

Badges?!? We don't need no stinking badges!

Anonymous Anonymous May 03, 2012 9:00 PM  

Congrats Giraffe, and Vidad,

I'm looking to arrange marriages for my 17 year old twins? Know any prospects?

I haven't told them yet, but, .........

Anonymous Anonymous May 03, 2012 9:00 PM  

Damn, I'm having trouble getting logged in,

That was farmer Tom.

Anonymous Stingray May 03, 2012 9:02 PM  

but the soil we have is so good

Man, I am happy for you. Our soil is the pits. Lovely southern red clay. Raised beds are a must.

Anonymous Stingray May 03, 2012 9:04 PM  

Nate,

Excuse me while I whip this out.

Blogger Nate May 03, 2012 9:17 PM  

"Man, I am happy for you. Our soil is the pits. Lovely southern red clay. Raised beds are a must."

Southern Alabama... soil is blacker than you can imagine..

Blogger Nate May 03, 2012 9:19 PM  

Farmer Tom

Sorry... but Deuteronomy forbids marrying sisters. Otherwise I would talk to you about it. Of course that was a ritual law... not a moral one... so one could argue it was abolished with the New Covenant...

hrmmm....

Anonymous Vidad May 03, 2012 9:23 PM  

@Stingray

(Spacebunny is gonna come after me for derailing this thread!)

Get as much biomass going as possible. Bare ground is your enemy. Mulch is better.

The most amazing video on what can be done is "Establishing a Food Forest the Permaculture Way" with Geoff Lawton. That totally opened my eyes to possibilities beyond my previous paradigm. You can literally feed the world on a tiny fraction of current land requirements by creating integrated forest systems. I've watched this presentation multiple times.

A must-have book (despite its leftie-loonie sounding title) is "Gaia's Garden: A Guide to Home-scale Permaculture." Another one, for a more traditional gardening approach, is Steve Solomon's "Gardening When it Counts." I own both.

If you have clay, put down a layer of cardboard over a patch of ground, covering weeds and all. Then add lots of green grass clippings, etc., then mulch about a foot deep over the top of that with leaves, chips or whatever you can get. Ignore the spot for a year. Next spring, dig in and you'll find the clay has been transformed into damp loam. Plant in between the mulch without tilling and allow the earthworms to be your soil managers. It works wonders. I did that in TN on hard clay (needed a pickaxe for traditional gardening) and the results had farmers asking me questions.

Anonymous Stingray May 03, 2012 9:25 PM  

soil is blacker than you can imagine..

Would it be wrong to make the Homer Simpson drooling sound? My parents have this and it is such a beautiful sight. One can walk outside barefoot and the ground is actually soft.

Anonymous Vidad May 03, 2012 9:26 PM  

@ Nate

I must see your setup at some time. Have you tried intercropping nitrogen-fixing trees with your fruits? I'm doing that now with Moringa, Pigeon Peas, Coral Beans, Leucana, Mimosa, Senna Alata and Honey Locust.

I'm up to 75 fruit trees now and still adding seedlings we've started. Pecan, pomegranate, citrus, etc. Not to mention blueberries, goumi berries, blackberries, Florida Cranberry...

Anonymous Anonymous May 03, 2012 9:29 PM  

Drudge

Looks like a lot of people no longer trust their banks.

farmer Tom

Anonymous Max Keiser May 03, 2012 9:32 PM  

Jamie Dimon: "Give us 2.1 billion! I don't care if you have to raid all your customer accounts. If you don't, we blow your's and your families' f*cking head off."

Jon Corzine: [checks his shorts]

So, what does one think "Part II" is going to look like?

Gee, can I get a merit badge in this?"

Blogger Nate May 03, 2012 9:34 PM  

Vidad

We have blackberry's and blue berries all over too... but we're most enjoying the ducks, chickens, geese, pea fowl, and very very soon... cattle. Rabbits would be in the plan.. but fish fill that role.

Great recommendations on videos and books by the way.

Anonymous Anonymous May 03, 2012 9:35 PM  

The only place on the property I live on where we could put a garden, was where the landlord had buried an old cattle building.

The hole to bury is was dug deep enough that the clay under the 4 ft of top soil was on the surface.

So, our local landfill gives away the composted yard waste from the cities nearby. I took my truck and a dump trailer I borrowed from work, and hauled three loads of compost to the yard, mixed that with a load of sand, then covered the spot for the garden to a dept of about 14 inches.

Made a heck of a garden out of a very undesirable spot.

farmer Tom

Anonymous Stingray May 03, 2012 9:41 PM  

Vidad and Nate,

Thank you very much. Truly.

Vidad, I will absolutely give the cardboard and mulch a try. I added in two new beds this year, and breaking up the clay was not fun. Also, it kills me to go to the store and buy soil. I compost, but this sounds so much more efficient (not to mention the better soil it will create) than what I have been doing up until now. Again, thank you.

Anonymous Stingray May 03, 2012 9:45 PM  

Ok, next question, Nate. Guinea fowl or chickens? We have a huge tick problem out at our land and when we move out there (hopefully) we want eggs and no ticks. I am loathe to get guinea fowl but I hear they are superior to chickens in the tick department, but a pain in the ass to raise as they are mean and stubborn. I would love chickens in a portable roost that I could move around a large garden.

Anonymous Vidad May 03, 2012 9:46 PM  

@Nate

I'm a scientist at heart. Books are my bread. Any recommendations on your end?

And yes on the animals. Anytime I can feed a low calorie, high-mass requirement food and convert it to a high-calorie, low-mass food (i.e. grain/grass into eggs/meat), I'm all for that. We've considered rabbits but not made the jump (also considered guinea pigs). Got chickens working very well for us in moving pens and I slaughter a few of those moderately often. Taste beats the heck out of factory farmed crap. I can't get my ducks to sit on their eggs (wrong breed, I think), so they're doomed to be meat one day. No space for cattle, unfortunately. We do have milk goats, though, and I eat the males from that little flock.

I'm stuck with only one acre, but it's A1 zoning with no regs. I don't have space for fish at this point, at least not sustainably. I desire them, but must wait until I can buy a bigger chunk of land debt-free.

Anonymous Vidad May 03, 2012 9:48 PM  

Guinea fowl are evil, ugly, annoying freaks. Yes, they eat bugs. But the noise... dear sweet Pythagoras... the noise...

Have them eat the ticks, then eat them.

The best day of my life was the day I slaughtered and devoured the bastards.

Anonymous Stingray May 03, 2012 9:53 PM  

Were they at least yummy?

I don't curse much, but I already hear myself calling our guinea fowl (if we ended up getting any) f*ckers. I think I would rather risk Lyme disease again than put up with that kind of noise.

Anonymous Stingray May 03, 2012 9:58 PM  

Were they at least yummy?

I don't curse much but I can already hear myself referring to them (if we decided to get them) as f*ckers. I would rather risk Lyme disease again than put up with that kind of noise.

Blogger Nate May 03, 2012 9:59 PM  

Stringray...

Chickens. For the love of all that is good and holy... chickens. I recomend cochins or armericanas. You want something that is a balance between a meat bird and a layer. You can put up a moveable chicken fence around your chicken tractor and rotate them around your place. or you can have a chicken tractor that has the yard built in. Depends on how many chickens you're gonna have. Predation is the biggest concern by far.

Blogger Nate May 03, 2012 10:00 PM  

Vidad
Why have the ducks sit on their eggs? Eat the damned things.

Anonymous rycamor May 03, 2012 10:04 PM  

For those with poor soil, one of the few pieces of gardening wisdom I was able to share with Vidad is biochar. I found this by accident when I first started gardening, because we had to get rid of a giant pile of branches and leaves that I pushed together with the tractor (with of course a fair amount of Florida sandy soil mixed in). I opted for a controlled burn to reduce the pile, keeping the hose running the whole time.

The thing burned a couple hours, and then smouldered for days as I kept wetting it. The pile of leaves and sand on top sealed in the wood and kept it gradually turning into charcoal but not completely dissipating into ash. By the end of the week I had an amazing pile of black soil. Spent the next year mixing it in with compost and got some nice rich-soil crops like peppers, tomatoes, broccoli, etc... without needing one bag of Miracle Gro.

Anonymous Freestater May 03, 2012 10:04 PM  

Very soon the time will come to short the Dow and S&P, I'm thinking the summer sell off won't happen until about a week after the facebook IPO, i'm taking the facebook IPO to be the top in this tech bubble

Anonymous Vidad May 03, 2012 10:05 PM  

@Nate

I wanted the ducks for meat. We eat the eggs regularly, but I really, really wanted lots of yummy duck meat and lard. Great source of cooking fat. And the time from egg to slaughter on ducks is really good.

I should've snagged some muscovies or Khakis rather than Pekins. Haven't had luck with an incubator or getting chickens to hatch them out. Unfortunately, the other duck breeds are restricted here thanks to interbreeding with the natives. Or something like that.

Blogger Nate May 03, 2012 10:07 PM  

We have runners... they do fine.

Anonymous Vidad May 03, 2012 10:07 PM  

@rycamor

Yes - that was a great find. I made another batch to remediate my aminopyralid issues a few weeks back. Particularly in sand the added carbon is unbelievable.

Biochar FTW

Blogger Nate May 03, 2012 10:09 PM  

Stingray
Do you compost? its a must. If nothing else get a pile started now. The backbone of any good operation is the composting. plus... remember if you have cattle and pigs... your composting will be amazing. Throw some corn feed into your manure and the pigs will dig through it aerating it.

Everyone earns their keep on the farm.. Chickens follow the cows cleaning up bugs and eating dropped fruit before it rots and causes disease... pigs aerate the compost.. cows... mow.

Anonymous Vidad May 03, 2012 10:09 PM  

@Nate

I don't think I can order them here, but I would if I could.

Perhaps when we meet for beverages I can bring you some trees to trade for a couple runners, if you have extra.

(I have a small experimental nursery in the yard with a variety of citrus, papaya, passion fruit, figs, pomegranates, avocados, cassava, blueberries, etc. Eventually, it may turn commercial. I need to get OUT of Churchian Radio work.)

Anonymous Stingray May 03, 2012 10:10 PM  

This thread had been invaluable. Thank you all.

Blogger Nate May 03, 2012 10:12 PM  

Vidad you asked for recommendations... I suggest strongly looking into polyface farms.

These cats have very similar ideas to what we both are doing.

http://www.polyfacefarms.com/books-dvds/

Anonymous Vidad May 03, 2012 10:13 PM  

And yes on composting. I deliberately allow some weeds to grow because of all the biomass they produce. Bidens alba and sunflowers, for instance. Any place that's allowed to go fallow can be used as a source for compost material. When I'm not growing food crops, I'm growing compost.

All the leaves I can snag in fall from neighbors also get used. Mixed with chicken manure, it's awesome. And of course, humanure composting is awesome, provided you can take the ick factor. Best dang compost pile I ever had was fueled with good ol' fashioned homemade sewage.

Blogger Nate May 03, 2012 10:13 PM  

I have figs too. You got a vineyard going yet? That was my big starter this year. Grapes all around.. and lavender planted around it to keep the deer away. And if it doesn't work.. the .308s will.

Anonymous Vidad May 03, 2012 10:14 PM  

@Nate

YEAH! Salatin is the bomb. He was just in N. Florida but I missed him. Too dang busy having a baby.

"You Can Farm" is a great place to start. Salatin is one of the good guys.

Anonymous Vidad May 03, 2012 10:16 PM  

I have a small vineyard I put in last year. Chill hours were too low for grapes this spring, but the vines are looking killer good. Just about 10 plants in there. The bunch grapes fare poorly here so I'm using muscadines and bunch/muscadine crosses. "Southern Home" is my main cultivar and its thriving.

Deer are good eating. I've thought of getting a plinker air rifle for the squirrels that eat my peaches. At least I'll get some food back that way.

Anonymous Stingray May 03, 2012 10:19 PM  

Nate,

I do compost, but right now we live in a neighborhood with 1/4 acre of land. We own 40 acres a county over, but we haven't been able to get out there yet to build. So, I have a few raised beds here to feed the family and to begin my learning process, but I am gathering as much info as possible to gear up for when we can get out to the land. I would love to plant some fruit trees and berry bushes out at the land now, but we haven't put in a well yet and spending the money on driving out there daily right now is tough. We are avidly making plans, but are doing what we can on our tiny plot. Chicken and the like are out of the question until we can move, unfortunately. However, I love gathering as much info as I can now.

Anonymous Vidad May 03, 2012 10:19 PM  

@Stingray

N/P. Other than economics, gardening is my favorite topic.

Though you realize all this may disappear tomorrow when Our Dear Moderators catch us. The only time I've ever had my comments deleted is when I started talking tropical crops with Mr. Nightstick on a thread about something COMPLETELY unrelated.

And... OH YEAH... MF GLOBAL!

Anonymous Vidad May 03, 2012 10:19 PM  

@Stingray

What's your growing zone?

Blogger Nate May 03, 2012 10:19 PM  

Vidad

Have you seen the youtube video with the guys that turned their swimming pool into a sustainable talapia farm? freakin' epic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMkmgolAj6o

Anonymous rycamor May 03, 2012 10:20 PM  

Nate May 03, 2012 9:59 PM

Stringray...

Chickens. For the love of all that is good and holy... chickens.


Absolutely. They have to be the single best return on investment for your time. If you have to pick one thing, start with chickens.

And then start using the manure for gardening compost.

And yes, anything regarding Polyface farms is gold. I suspect Joel Salatin's book "Everything I want to do is Illegal" will become one of the defining documents of our time.

Nate mentions the cows and pigs, with the chickens following behind to clean up. The term for getting the most out of that is called "forced grazing" or "rotational grazing". Some of these guys actually put stakes in the ground with strings and channel all the cows into a different small strip of the field every day, so they eat that section bare, leave their dung, attracting insects, and then the chickens follow behind doing clean-up. Apparently you get orders of magnitude more usage out of the land doing it this way.

Anonymous Stingray May 03, 2012 10:22 PM  

Zone 7. I was actually thinking of taking a trip to that Poly Face farms. They are not too far from me.

Anonymous rycamor May 03, 2012 10:30 PM  

Vidad and Nate, quick--say something about guns to keep the thread from being deleted.

Blogger Nate May 03, 2012 10:30 PM  

interesting thing about Salatin... DrWho and I sat down and laid all these plans out... having never heard of him before... then we found his stuff via Josh... and it was like... holy crap! Dude did everything we are trying to do!

I confess though... our ambitions are blunted by the 5 acre lake we have full of food.. I mean... fish.

Anonymous Stingray May 03, 2012 10:31 PM  

Oh man, Vidad. I meant to say congratulations hours ago on your new son. Congrats man. That is wonderful.

Blogger Nate May 03, 2012 10:34 PM  

Guys...

SB is a farm girl.. and she wants backyard chickens so bad she can't stand it. This thread ain't going anywhere.

Blogger Nate May 03, 2012 10:35 PM  

indeed Stringray.

Congrats Vidad. As always... I shall smoke a gurkha for ya.

Anonymous Stingray May 03, 2012 10:36 PM  

I got a Mossberg 590a1 a few days ago from my husband. How's that?

Anonymous Vidad May 03, 2012 10:40 PM  

@Nate

The garden pool. Unbelievable. Awesome.

@Stingray

Thank you - God is good. And zone 7? You're in great shape. I was outside Nashville for a while and had great success there. Pears, peaches, blackberries, etc. Nice place to garden. My favorite corn for that area was Hickory King - a great heirloom grain corn that made fantastic grits. I'm basically zone 9 now, so I've added some tropical stuff that couldn't take it up there - but I also lost a few varieties in the process. No more Granny Smith or Stayman Winesap Apples for me.

Anonymous Johnycomelately May 03, 2012 10:40 PM  

Whats the bet the powers that be are sitting on more gold than you can poke a stick at (mind you, not the central banks or governments).

Whatever happened to the Czar's and Nazi gold? Or the Chinese silver?

If they can suppress the price at the high times, what's to say they can't do it during a depression when they're the only ones sitting on money?

Anonymous Vidad May 03, 2012 10:43 PM  

@Nate

Thanks. My quiver is full.

I'm a cigar-a-day guy but haven't tried Gurkhas. They're good, I assume, since you smoke them?

I generally buy from Famous Smoke Shop. Killer prices. "Andros" is my favorite low-cost brand. When I have money, I smoke Punch.

@Spacebunny

Come on, girl. Why don't you have any chickens yet? Danged easy things to keep.

Blogger Nate May 03, 2012 10:51 PM  

Vidad...

Do you like black cigars that make you wonder why marijuana is illegal? If you do.. if you like cigars that make Onyx seem a little light in the loafers... then yeah... Gurkhas are good.

Anonymous Stingray May 03, 2012 10:58 PM  

Gentlemen, thank you very much for the information and the conversation. Time for this girl to go to bed.

Anonymous rycamor May 03, 2012 11:03 PM  

In the context of the original post:

Any young men (with or thinking of family) perusing this thread should take all this to heart. Even if you are a city guy, start learning what you can. The world won't go all to hell all at once, or at least not all at the same time in the same place, but it seems obvious that hard times be a-comin'. Not that you should give up on your modern skills, but every thinking man should have at least one or two backup plans.

On the flip side to all this rural stuff, any skill that you can do over the internet is worth hanging on to, because the world becomes your potential employer. In fact, I would urge young guys--city or country--with technical aptitude start learning some tech skill like jQuery/AJAX, databases, networking, or ESPECIALLY internet security. In spite of all the economic direness, companies will need this stuff done because it represents savings and efficiency.

That's basically my plan over the next decade or two: live in the country, spend half my time farming and the other half making income from remote tech work. Wages have been pushed down a bit, but the volume is still there, and I see it holding stronger than many other lines of work.

And even if the giant solar flare of 2013 happens and knocks the world offline, the tech infrastructure will have to be rebuilt. Broken windows can benefit the few.

Anonymous RC May 03, 2012 11:42 PM  

"...then mulch about a foot deep over the top of that with leaves, chips or whatever you can get..." - Vidad

Just don't use Black Walnut leaves if you're planting tomatoes or blueberries. Juglone is not your friend.

Anonymous RC May 03, 2012 11:47 PM  

"Do you like black cigars that make you wonder why marijuana is illegal? If you do.. if you like cigars that make Onyx seem a little light in the loafers... then yeah... Gurkhas are good."

Gurkhas are good but Onyx is my personal favorite for an evening smoke. Smoooooth.

Never thought about growing tobacco. Probably illegal since the tobacco farmers in the area have to maintain government permits. Good idea...

Anonymous Vidad May 04, 2012 12:15 AM  

@Nate

Yes, I like black, mess-with-your-head cigars. I will try some Gurkhas. Haven't had Onyx in a long time... good stuff. I like black coffee, unsweetened baking chocolate, straight gin, habenero sauce, sauerkraut, anchovies, horseradish and black maduros. Strong is my friend.

@RC

If you're in the US, you're okay growing tobacco for personal consumption. Up to 500 plants if I remember correctly. And yeah... jugalone is not cool, though some plants can handle it. Most leaves are excellent, though. Black Walnuts are great trees for eating, though a pain to shell. I miss them here. Wish I could grow one.

Anonymous Vidad May 04, 2012 12:16 AM  

@rycamor

If I wasn't such a Luddite, I'd pick up some of that there internet stuff. I think you're dead on.

Anonymous Noah B. May 04, 2012 1:37 AM  

@Vidad

The wheat I planted has turned out wonderfully. The stalks are almost completely golden now, so in a few days, I get to try out my new scythe. I realize you're a permaculture guy, but you should try a small patch of wheat or oats this year if you haven't already.

Anonymous rycamor May 04, 2012 1:40 AM  

While we're on the topic of future-proofing, any 'Mericans thinking of expat life in Belize might want to think twice: Antivirus Pioneer John McAfee Arrested In Belize. Notice, in what is rapidly becoming a ritual police action, they killed his dog.

Just because you don't take political sides doesn't mean the political sides won't take you.

Blogger Elusive Wapiti May 04, 2012 2:07 AM  

Congrats Giraffe!

Anonymous PhillipinesMarcos May 04, 2012 2:54 AM  

Whatever happened to the Czar's and Nazi gold?

Exactly. TheSecretGoldTreaty is one interesting thing I've read on the subject.

Blogger Nate May 04, 2012 8:16 AM  

Ry
That sort of thing can happen anywhere. Which is why he should've had about 20 former blackwater employees simply execute the GSU boys on sight.

Anonymous Vidad May 04, 2012 8:46 AM  

@Noah B.

I grew some wheat, oats and barley in little patches this last year. The barley did poorly, but the other two did fine. I'm not a grain-eater anymore, but the chickens liked 'em. Congrats on your success. There's something lovely about wheat plants. I have a scythe, but I still take down my grains with a hand sickle like I'm an old Vietnamese woman.

Wish I was better with the scythe, honestly.

@rycamor

So... what you're saying is... in Belize, if the mulatto ex-slaves don't get you, the police will. That's nice. Seems the only place to be in Belize is with the Mennonites.

Of course, the same could be said in many places...

Anonymous rycamor May 04, 2012 9:08 AM  

True, and true, although it's obvious that McAfee's main mistake was his high-profile charity. Much better to be an anonymous donor... and a judicious briber.

Anonymous Josh May 04, 2012 11:55 AM  

I'm glad I'm marrying a country girl who grew up on a farm.

This thread is epic.

Anonymous Darrell S. May 04, 2012 12:57 PM  

Nate, you're not too far from here -- do you need any apprentices after my buddies and I lose our jobs?

Not afraid of hard work... well-armed... even have a couple of cute little daughters for any young boys you may have around the place.

I was kind of looking forward to becoming the new John Dillenger, but like Rycamor said: backup plans. :)

Anonymous jm May 04, 2012 3:38 PM  

OT, but RIP Adam Yauch.

Blogger Markku May 04, 2012 8:03 PM  

I wonder if that was the real Max Keiser at May 03, 2012 9:32 PM.

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