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Wednesday, June 27, 2012

German court finds Muslim guilty; Jews suffer most

I was pretty sure when I read this that we could count on some hysterical reactions from those who can detect anti-semitism in cloud formations:
German Court Declares Judaism A Crime

Hard to believe, but that’s what the decision handed down by the regional court in Cologne, Germany means: circumcising a child under the age of consent is a crime, notwithstanding the religious beliefs of the parents.... Jews believe that the circumcision of infants is a necessary act; the command to circumcise male children at the age of eight days is the first command that God gives Abraham to mark their covenant; for thousands of years this has been a foundation of Jewish life. To ban infant circumcision is essentially to make the practice of Judaism illegal in Germany; it is now once again a crime to be a Jew in the Reich.
First of all, no one seems to have any problem with ignoring the religious beliefs of the parents when it comes to circumcising girls, so it seems more than a little bit hypocritical for anyone to simultaneously claim that there is a religious right to chop off part of a boy's body off, but not any part of a girl's body. Does Mr. Mead support the right of female circumcision for those Muslims who practice that?

Second, there are severe restrictions on religious freedom in Germany. One cannot homeschool there, wear a headscarf, or be excused from classes on evolution for religious purposes, so it seems a bit much to expect to be able to cut pieces off other people's bodies there on that basis. If you want to practice your religion in freedom, Germany is simply not the place for you. This is neither news nor rocket science.

Third, circumcision is not Judaism, as should be obvious given the fact that many Christians and Muslims are circumcised and are not Jews. So, it is simply false to claim that Germany has declared Judaism to be a crime. And fourth, why do Jews still want to live in Germany anyway? One finds it hard to imagine that the Germans have not made it sufficiently clear that they do not cherish living with Jews among them any more than Israelis enjoy living with Sudanese in their midst.

UPDATE: I have zero sympathy for Jews whining about this court decision. They have no grounds for complaining about finding themselves on the short end of the freedom of religion law this time given this previous German court case: "In 1973, a Jew complained successfully that his freedom of religion was violated by the obligation to speak in a German courtroom decorated by a cross."

Do you want your traditions to be respected? Then keep your nose out of everyone else's.

Labels:

115 Comments:

Blogger Nate June 27, 2012 11:04 AM  

Jews crave persecution. It is their most beloved self-indulgence. I cannot think of any other way of explaining it.

Blogger Shimshon June 27, 2012 11:08 AM  

Vox, I don't the detailed numbers, but from what I understand, the Jewish population of Germany was roughly 20,000 just prior to the massive wave of Soviet Jewish emigration that started in 1989, a fairly paltry number. I don't know what the number is today, but it is far, FAR higher.

Germany decided to accept a massive wave of Jews as refugees, which caused quite the diplomatic row with Israel, as Israel (rightly) claimed that these Jews actually had a place to go.

That's why Soviet Jews would often choose Germany over Israel. It was closer, and richer, and offered far greater enticements.

Blogger Vox June 27, 2012 11:20 AM  

That's why Soviet Jews would often choose Germany over Israel. It was closer, and richer, and offered far greater enticements.

That's their choice, I suppose, but they shouldn't then bitch because they can't surgically modify their children as they please. I mean, you won't hear me bitching because you can't buy edible hamburger buns at the grocery store in Italy.

Anonymous Shild June 27, 2012 11:21 AM  

Nate - Jews crave persecution. It is their most beloved self-indulgence. I cannot think of any other way of explaining it.

(Somewhat OT) When I first read about "r/K theory" via link from Roissy's blog, my first thought was "Well, that explains the Jews". Their leftism and their unfortunate history of being preyed upon fit perfectly into the theory.

(Please note that I haven't yet formed an opinion on the r/K thing; I'm just pointing out that the Jewish people just seem to be consistent with it. Also, no disrespect intended to Jews.)

Anonymous Josh June 27, 2012 11:22 AM  

Italy has declared eating like an American a crime, Vox.

Anonymous Roundtine June 27, 2012 11:25 AM  

How will the ban be enforced? Will the Germans have a wiener inspector come check at day 9 or 10? I could imagine them doing that......

The Muslims seem to do these ceremonies at an older age, when the child can complain.

Blogger Markku June 27, 2012 11:27 AM  

How will the ban be enforced? Will the Germans have a wiener inspector come check at day 9 or 10? I could imagine them doing that......

At least when I was at school, the school nurse inspected the kids' penises a few times.

Anonymous zen0 June 27, 2012 11:27 AM  

The millions of German Muslims won't be happy either.

The Jews will petition and plead with government to little avail.

The Muslims will send a Shahid to assassinate the Judge, and will get an exemption.

Anonymous Dr. T June 27, 2012 11:30 AM  

First some nitpicking (after all, I am German): wearing a headscarf is allowed in Germany, just not for teachers in school and similar cases. This said, I am appalled by this decision. Not that I care much about circumcision. Germany, as Europe in general, has a tradition of balancing religious freedom against other considerations. This obviously has to result in restrictions on religious freedom. To some degree this is the case everywhere; in example, even the USA do not allow human sacrifices. If these restrictions are considered severe depends on your point of view; the absolute majority of Germans are ok with the German laws. But then again, as a people we like a strong state.

However, male circumcision has always been considered as so important to some religions that this outweights the minor potential disadvantages. This is changing, because the mainstream is turning against all kind of religions here. So I might not care for circumcision. But its outlawing is a sign on the wall, that other traditional religions will be targeted, too.

Blogger JDC June 27, 2012 11:44 AM  

Quote from Markku
At least when I was at school, the school nurse inspected the kids' penises a few times.

That is atrocious and unfair. I never got a school nurse to touch me there, and I really put effort into it.

Anonymous Gen. Kong June 27, 2012 12:05 PM  

In Germany, there even the cats are anti-semitic, along with cloud formations, trees, etc. That's probably why all the Soviet Jews chose to move there rather than to Israel - who seems to be dealing fairly effectively with its illegal infiltrator problem.

Anonymous Viking June 27, 2012 12:18 PM  

"Third, circumcision is not Judaism, as should be obvious given the fact that many Christians and Muslims are circumcised and are not Jews."

Oh come on Vox. You of all people should see the mistake in this statement. No, a person does not become a Jew simply by getting cut but a boy cannot become a Jew without being cut. Just as (for Catholics and some Protestants) getting randomly dunked in water doesn't necessarily make you a Christian but getting baptized is (for many) an essential part of the process.

This may not be they way you do your religious thing and you may not even believe that is right or very effective way for anyone to do their religious thing but surely you can see how this prevents them from doing something that they have understood for more than 3000 years to be an essential part of their faith.

Anonymous Viking June 27, 2012 12:23 PM  

A therefore B does not necessarily require B therefore A

Anonymous Matt June 27, 2012 12:26 PM  

In terms of body mods for your kid, there's a continuum involved. Pierced ears? Not so bad. FGM? Real bad.

Male circumcision is pretty clearly more dramatic than pierced ears, but it's also clearly not as extreme as FGM. I don't have a particularly strong opinion on where the legal line should lie, but the bare fact that some people use the word "circumcision" to refer to both doesn't make them the same thing.

Blogger Vox June 27, 2012 12:26 PM  

This may not be they way you do your religious thing and you may not even believe that is right or very effective way for anyone to do their religious thing but surely you can see how this prevents them from doing something that they have understood for more than 3000 years to be an essential part of their faith.

It doesn't prevent them from doing it. It prevents them from doing it in Germany, where very, very few of those people have lived over the last 3,000 years. If it's so vitally important, they can go do it somewhere else. I'm given to understand there is even a place for people exactly like them, who kick out people who are not like them.

You can't make an appeal to "3,000 years" when they've been there for 20.

Anonymous No_Limit_Bubba™ June 27, 2012 12:36 PM  

VOX:
"...you won't hear me bitching because you can't buy edible hamburger buns in Italy."

Passive-aggressive complainer.

JDC:
I never got a nurse to touch me there...

You have a collect call from the Penn. State Pen.

Anonymous Viking June 27, 2012 12:36 PM  

True, they can go somewhere else. But having children is a very normal part of life for every level of society. Bringing your children into your faith is a very normal part of life for a family. Requiring them to leave the country every time they have a male child can reasonably be seen as a burden for poorer members of that society. If you are going to do this you better make sure that you have a compelling reason to do so in terms of serving the public interest. Circumcision has been reasonably common for a very long time. And no, I would not equate Male circumcision with female genital mutilation.

If the goal is to get rid of Muslims because they have an annoying tendency to try to impose Sharia on their neighborhoods then simply do it. Send them packing because their culture is incompatible with yours. If your goal is to get rid of liberal jews because they whine too much then do it. But to randomly declare illegal that which hasn't been a problem though out history is to play BS games.

Anonymous Stilicho June 27, 2012 12:37 PM  

Quote from Markku
At least when I was at school, the school nurse inspected the kids' penises a few times.


No one expects the Finnish short-arm inspection.

Anonymous Stilicho June 27, 2012 12:40 PM  

The Muslims seem to do these ceremonies at an older age, when the child can complain.

Who wouldn't complain?

How many Jews would be circumcised if they waited until Bar Mitzvah time and gave them a choice?

Anonymous Viking June 27, 2012 12:41 PM  

off topic. Stockton files for bankruptcy. The dominoes are starting to drop.

Anonymous kh123 June 27, 2012 12:41 PM  

Am just glad that U-Hauls are readily available to those Christians living in countries that legally do them to death on a regular basis.

Blogger Joshua_D June 27, 2012 12:47 PM  

Viking June 27, 2012 12:18 PM
Just as (for Catholics and some Protestants) getting randomly dunked in water doesn't necessarily make you a Christian but getting baptized is (for many) an essential part of the process.


Apparently, you aren't familiar with my church - Second Movement Unwillingly Free Baptist Salvation Church - here in western NC. Our doctrine only requires that you be dunked in water to get into heaven.

I've saved 147 people already this year by hanging around the water fountain downtown on Saturdays (usually about six a day before some unwilling person calls the local po po.)

Of course, the local Second Movement Unwillingly Free Methodist Salvation Church is really killing it, since they can use Super Soakers and spray a crowd of five to 10 folks easy.

Anonymous Mr. Nightstick June 27, 2012 12:51 PM  

From Vaterland to Scheideland.

Anonymous jerry June 27, 2012 1:02 PM  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb3IMTJjzfo

Anonymous Ubermann June 27, 2012 1:04 PM  

How will the ban be enforced?

I will use my x-ray vision to detect violations!

Anonymous cherub's revenge June 27, 2012 1:07 PM  

I mean, you won't hear me bitching because you can't buy edible hamburger buns at the grocery store in Italy.

With all that free trade, you can't even get a Vienna roll and cut it in half? The EU really is an abomination.

Blogger Galt-in-Da-Box June 27, 2012 1:15 PM  

"Women and minorities hardest hit."

Anonymous Isaac June 27, 2012 1:31 PM  

With all that free trade, you can't even get a Vienna roll and cut it in half? The EU really is an abomination.

All this talk of cutting weiners is making me uncomfortable.

Blogger Markku June 27, 2012 1:40 PM  

Proselytizing is a mandatory part of Christianity.

Guess where we can't do it...

Anonymous Samuel Scott June 27, 2012 1:52 PM  

Vox,

Thank you for posting this and fostering an interesting discussion that makes me think.

As regular visitors know, I'm an American, Israeli Jew who is also a former journalist who appreciates objective, logical arguments and reasoning. Still, issues like this make me think in complex -- and perhaps contradictory -- ways. So, allow me a stream of consciousness.

"First of all, no one seems to have any problem with ignoring the religious beliefs of the parents when it comes to circumcising girls, so it seems more than a little bit hypocritical for anyone to simultaneously claim that there is a religious right to chop off part of a boy's body off, but not any part of a girl's body."

I understand this argument, and I am conflicted. Say, one day, I have a son. Do I have the absolute right to circumcise him as I would wish? If so, then why would I not have the absolute right to do the same if I were a Muslim or Arab and my child was a girl? The argument is perplexing.

Still, I wonder -- and I could be wrong -- whether it is a comparison of "apples and oranges" based on the intention of the procedure and its physiological effects.

The intention of male circumcision in Judaism is to welcome a male child into the Covenant of Avraham. And the physiological effect on the future use of the sex organ and the pleasure derived therefrom is minimal.

The intention of female circumcision is to eliminate any pleasure that the girl will feel from her clitoris during sexual activity. It's a completely different thing.

Still, does this mean that the level of individual and community liberty should be decided based on the physiological effect of an action? If so, who decides what is the line? To be honest, I do not have a good answer.

"Third, circumcision is not Judaism, as should be obvious given the fact that many Christians and Muslims are circumcised and are not Jews. So, it is simply false to claim that Germany has declared Judaism to be a crime."

Circumcision is mandatory under traditional, Jewish law. It is not mandatory in Christianity and Islamic law. If memory serves me correct, circumcision is very common in the United States but less common in Europe.

"And fourth, why do Jews still want to live in Germany anyway?"

As much as it pains me to write this, I can tell you the reason. About half of Israelis are Zionists (religious or not), and half are not (mainly secular). It's a divisive issue here. At the same time, salaries here are half of what they are in the West, and most staples and consumer goods cost double. (The complex reasons are best left to another time.) So, many Israelis simply want to and do move to where they can make more money in dollars or euros. Full stop. I'm not proud of it, but it's the truth.

Anonymous scoobius dubious June 27, 2012 1:56 PM  

Germans, Muslims, Jews... they're all being so snippy about this.

Anonymous the abe June 27, 2012 1:58 PM  

"...you won't hear me bitching because you can't buy edible hamburger buns in Italy."

In Scotland they just get around using bread by deep frying them. I'd complain that you can't get a piece of red meat that's cooked right in this country, but who would listen?

Blogger Astrosmith June 27, 2012 2:06 PM  

Markku June 27, 2012 11:27 AM
How will the ban be enforced? Will the Germans have a wiener inspector come check at day 9 or 10? I could imagine them doing that......

At least when I was at school, the school nurse inspected the kids' penises a few times.

They do that quite often over here in the U.S. as well. Coach "Tickle Monster" Sandusky was very good at that.

Blogger Joshua_D June 27, 2012 2:07 PM  

Hmm ... Deep fried NY Strip steak? Maybe ... just maybe ...

Anonymous Samuel Scott June 27, 2012 2:07 PM  

Nate,

"Jews crave persecution. It is their most beloved self-indulgence. I cannot think of any other way of explaining it."

You're thinking of the stereotype of American/European Jews. Israeli Jews are not usually wimpering weaklings like Woody Allen. You attack us, we will kill you.

Anonymous artie June 27, 2012 2:15 PM  

"You attack us, we will kill you."

That's what Nate meant.

Anonymous Samuel Scott June 27, 2012 2:21 PM  

artie,

"That's what Nate meant."

Nope. Woody Allen and those types would turn the other cheek, make a funny joke, and accept the anti-Semitism as long as they would think they could return to the ghetto in peace. Most Israelis would not.

Blogger WATYF June 27, 2012 2:22 PM  

Completely OT....

More "student loan" fodder: http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/student-loans-basically-ruined-life-yahoo-news-readers-105332697.html

WATYF

Anonymous VD June 27, 2012 2:22 PM  

Still, does this mean that the level of individual and community liberty should be decided based on the physiological effect of an action? If so, who decides what is the line? To be honest, I do not have a good answer.

I don't think they can be separated. I think the correct way is for people who want to live in a certain way to live where that way is the dominant culture. Once the state begins to regulate the relationships between the various communities, the battle is already over and it's merely a struggle of which party shall define the rules for the others.

Anonymous Samuel Scott June 27, 2012 2:27 PM  

Vox,

"I think the correct way is for people who want to live in a certain way to live where that way is the dominant culture."

And that's one of the MANY reasons I moved to Israel some years ago. Throw in the better economy, a society that eschews debt moreso, and countless other factors as well.

Anonymous scoobius dubious June 27, 2012 2:27 PM  

A "Jews crave persecution. It is their most beloved self-indulgence."

B "You're thinking of the stereotype of American/European Jews. ...You attack us, we will kill you."

Non-responsive: B does not address A. Sure, you may kill your attackers over there in the Eretz; but you haven't shown that you don't have a pathological love of being attacked. It's actually the unimaginably cynical shield you use for the purposes of attacking others, but I suppose you'll kill me if I discuss that.

Anonymous Smarty Pants June 27, 2012 2:29 PM  

The fact is they could just get circumcised in another country, say on a trip to Israel and still carry on living in the country of there choice.

I don't really get the fact that the majority of American men seem to be circumcised. For a country that presents itself as the most Christian in the world it seems strange that they engage in a practice that was explicitly pointed out as wrong by St Paul.

Also its been proved that circumcision removes almost a quarter of the nerve endings in a mans penis. Meaning it has a significant effect on the sensitivity of the penis and the amount of pleasure derived from sexual acts.

Anonymous Oy June 27, 2012 2:36 PM  

And that's one of the MANY reasons I moved to Israel some years ago. Throw in the better economy, a society that eschews debt moreso, and countless other factors as well.

About the debt thing:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2186rank.html

Israel is number 26, with a higher debt-to-gdp ration than the USA and Spain, among others.

Anonymous Samuel Scott June 27, 2012 2:41 PM  

Oy,

"Israel is number 26, with a higher debt-to-gdp ration than the USA and Spain, among others."

As someone who lives here, I'm talking consumer debt. Revolving debt like US credit cards does not exist here -- only a version of debit cards (if you qualify). Whatever I put on my card, the entire balance is deducted from my checking account once a month.

People have a lower standard of living, but they have less personal debt.

Anonymous Samuel Scott June 27, 2012 2:48 PM  

scoobius dubious,

"Non-responsive: B does not address A. Sure, you may kill your attackers over there in the Eretz; but you haven't shown that you don't have a pathological love of being attacked. It's actually the unimaginably cynical shield you use for the purposes of attacking others, but I suppose you'll kill me if I discuss that."

"you haven't shown that you don't have a pathological love of being attacked"

You have not supported your premise. I disagree, and you seem only to be basing it on a stereotypical assumption. Sure, we Jews joke about persecution. (I've heard more Holocaust jokes since moving here than I had ever heard in the US.) But it is a psychological defense mechanism against, you know, being attacked.

I talk with native-born Israelis all the time, and all I hear is that they simply want to be left alone. If Hamas, Hizbollah, and others would just simply stop firing rockets and doing more against Israel, then the region would be at peace. Israel only responds because it is attacked or in a pre-emptive effort. Israelis just want to live their lives in peace; no one (short of those with a mental condition) actually wants to be persecuted.

Anonymous Emperor of Icecream June 27, 2012 2:52 PM  

Pretty whiny, Vox.

Our secularist masters' divide-and-conquer strategy is working to a tee.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 June 27, 2012 2:57 PM  

So a secular court system in Germany has declared that circumcision illegal for both boys and girls (just to be fair). I'm sure that this is part in parcel with the drive for a futuristic secular utopia where religion is non-existent or some such nonsense.

Oddly, if we asked this judge if he was going to outlaw abortion on the grounds that it is done without the child's consent, I think he holler about how it is a woman's right to choose and that it would drive abortions into an underground market. Sadly, this is exactly what is going to happen in Germany now with religious parents going to black-market alternatives in order to fulfill their religious requirements.

Anonymous cherub's revenge June 27, 2012 2:57 PM  

In Scotland they just get around using bread by deep frying them.

Sort of like my old man's fasirka recipe, but that's got pork in it. I put lamb in mine too, lightly grill it or smoke it, then bread it for a quick fry.

Used to get pljeskavica like that all over Chicago too before all the DPs scattered to the burbs. Kind of like a Balkan-Carpathian fusion cuisine.

Anonymous Sheila June 27, 2012 3:00 PM  

The figures for the percentage of American men who are circumcised are all over the place. NY Times says about 80%, WHO says between 70 and 90%, and CDC says that for 2011, about 54% of male newborns. The rate is obviously dropping. Is this due to fewer Whites having it done, or fewer White newborns (Africans and Mexicans don't circumcise and Arabs don't do it at birth)?

I really didn't have strong feelings either way when our sons were born, but my husband (Irish/Italian) insisted on it. After enough years of reading the pros and cons, I think I should have put my foot down and refused to have it done to them. In a non-primitive, literate society with access to and understanding of soap and water, there's really no hygienic reason to mutilate baby boys.

Anonymous cherub's revenge June 27, 2012 3:07 PM  

Kind of like a Balkan-Carpathian fusion cuisine.

Or just poor man's Hunkey food as my sister-in-law calls it.

Anonymous James Dixon June 27, 2012 3:07 PM  

> The figures for the percentage of American men who are circumcised are all over the place. NY Times says about 80%, WHO says between 70 and 90%, and CDC says that for 2011, about 54% of male newborns.

The percentage of US men circumcised relates directly to the percentage born in hospitals. It was common practice for hospitals to circumcise male children for many years. A practice which is thankfully declining. I'm very glad I wasn't born in a hospital.

> In a non-primitive, literate society with access to and understanding of soap and water, there's really no hygienic reason to mutilate baby boys.

Bingo.

Now, let's see if this posts or not. My last few posts have disappeared into the ether. They show as posting, and are there until I refresh, but then disappear.

Blogger Unknown June 27, 2012 3:09 PM  

> The figures for the percentage of American men who are circumcised are all over the place. NY Times says about 80%, WHO says between 70 and 90%, and CDC says that for 2011, about 54% of male newborns. The rate is obviously dropping.

It used to be common practice for hospitals to circumcise mail children, often without even asking the parents. That's thankfully changing.

> In a non-primitive, literate society with access to and understanding of soap and water, there's really no hygienic reason to mutilate baby boys.

Bingo.

Anonymous James Dixon June 27, 2012 3:15 PM  

Hmm. So if I post with Name/URL, the post disappears into the ether, even though Google says it was published and it shows up until I refresh. If comment with my Google account, it shows as unknown, even though Google knows who I am. I can't win today. :(

Anonymous Daniel June 27, 2012 3:17 PM  

Sheila
with access to and understanding of soap and water there's really no hygienic reason to mutilate baby boys.

a) it is done for reasons other than hygienic. Hygiene is irrelevant.
b) trust your husband's judgment on the matter, one way or the other.

and, most importantly,

c) if you think that the only thing keeping little boys away from soap and water is lack of access and understanding, I'd like to inform you otherwise! ;-)

Blogger Unknown June 27, 2012 3:19 PM  

Hmm. So if I post with Name/URL, the post disappears into the ether, even though Google says it was published and it shows up until I refresh. If comment with my Google account, it shows as unknown. :(

Blogger IM2L844 June 27, 2012 3:30 PM  

Sadly, this is exactly what is going to happen in Germany now with religious parents going to black-market alternatives in order to fulfill their religious requirements.

Awwww pffft. Surely there's a do-it-yourself video on Youtube. Then, just order up your "as seen on TV" Mogen Clamp-O-Matic from Ron Popeil. Bada bing, bada bang, bada boom. Done and the Bundesgerichtshof is none the wiser.

Anonymous jerry June 27, 2012 3:33 PM  

Sheila, submitting to your husband was the best thing you could have done. Don't second guess yourself.

Anonymous rienzi June 27, 2012 3:35 PM  

I talk with native-born Israelis all the time, and all I hear is that they simply want to be left alone. If Hamas, Hizbollah, and others would just simply stop firing rockets and doing more against Israel, then the region would be at peace. Israel only responds because it is attacked or in a pre-emptive effort. Israelis just want to live their lives in peace; no one (short of those with a mental condition) actually wants to be persecuted.

Sam,
If some oddball Canadian/US expatriate groups fired missiles into the US , with the express consent of the Canadian government, the US Army Corps of Engineers would be busy sowing salt on the radioactive remains of Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec, Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton, and Vancouver. Any US government that wouldn't, would soon find the heads of its leaders stuck on pikes in front of the capitol building.

So, I don't see a whole lot of non-Woody Allen behavior from you guys. A few bombs here, a few artillery shells there, but, essentially: Why does Gaza still exist? What's it going to take to bring out this badassedness you guys are always bragging about?

Personally, I would like to see you guys get all medieval on the ragheads, without hiding behind Uncle Sam for a change.

Blogger Nate June 27, 2012 3:36 PM  

"You're thinking of the stereotype of American/European Jews. Israeli Jews are not usually wimpering weaklings like Woody Allen. You attack us, we will kill you."

I am... you're correct. Living in the US clearly gives me a US centric view.

Anonymous VD June 27, 2012 3:45 PM  

Pretty whiny, Vox.

I'm the one who is whining? How did you come up with that conclusion? I wouldn't live in Germany for the homeschooling reason alone, myself.

Blogger Markku June 27, 2012 3:47 PM  

Israel has some novel ideas for tourism industry... A grandmother that my parents know (around 70 years old if my memory serves me right) just came from Israel. IDF paid for the trip and the stay, but she had to clean tanks and whatnot.

Blogger Nate June 27, 2012 4:06 PM  

"I'm the one who is whining? How did you come up with that conclusion? I wouldn't live in Germany for the homeschooling reason alone, myself."

See that's what I'm sayin'. Why would anyone want to live where the populace has priorities that are so different from ones own?

Its daft.

I like Australia.. but until they de-regulate firearms ownership... I would never move there.

Anonymous scoobius dubious June 27, 2012 4:11 PM  

"Any US government that wouldn't, would soon find the heads of its leaders stuck on pikes in front of the capitol building."

WTF are you talking about?! Right now, at this very moment, you are looking at an entire US govt that is not only tolerating egregious criminal actions against its own people that are far, far worse than some imaginary Canadian missile attack; you are looking at a US govt that is actively, consciously waging a hideous genocidal war against its own people.

I _dream_ of heads on pikes for these ongoing outrages, but I don't see it happening any time soon.

Anonymous Fast and Furious June 27, 2012 4:13 PM  

Samuel Scott: Your son is not your dog or some kind of farm animal. Stop cutting in baby boys. If, when he is an adult, he wants his penis mutilated, then fine. Adults destroy their bodies in many ways, tattoos and piercings to name only a few.

Blogger Nate June 27, 2012 4:18 PM  

"Samuel Scott: Your son is not your dog or some kind of farm animal. Stop cutting in baby boys. "

Fast and Furious

Blow it out your ass. You literally have no say in the matter.

Blogger Chelm Wiseman June 27, 2012 4:28 PM  

Circumcision is not rational. It isnt even really defensable. But banning circumcision is banning jewish practice. Even the most liberal jewish denominations have not stopped circumcising their children. German culture is irreconcilable with Judaism. I certainly would not live there.

Anonymous paradox June 27, 2012 4:31 PM  

There is nothing wrong with circumcision and actually when the SHTF and no hot water exist it may be best. What is wrong is the disgusting Judaic fellatio witchcraft version of circumcision.

Anonymous Clay June 27, 2012 4:33 PM  

scoobius dubious June 27, 2012 4:11 PM "you are looking at a US govt that is actively, consciously waging a hideous genocidal war against its own people."

"Genocidal"? That's a bit extreme, isn't it Scooby?

Unless, of course, you're referring to the government turning a blind eye while gangs of yutes go all Mau mau on us crackers.

Hmm...Obama...Kenya...Mau mau...Michelle's butt. It's all starting to make sense, now.

Anonymous Bluesman June 27, 2012 4:39 PM  

My understanding is that the cutting that is called for from, and was practiced originally by, ancient jews was a tiny incision producing a couple drops of blood.

Modern prepuce amputation that we call circumcision is very different and has a lot more in common if you look at the history of the procedure with female genital mutilation--in the case of females, preserving virginity, and in the case of males, preventing masturbation.

If a religion decrees that each child shall have an eye gouged out at three days old, how are we to view that? Arm amputated as a sacrifice? Every third child decapitated?

I am a staunch advocate of parental rights, but amputation is an irreversible detriment to a child. My proposal for a civilized society would be to allow adults to have surgery to remove any part of themselves that conflicts with their religion, but to require that parents wait until the child can consent before scheduling such amputations for them.

Blogger Nate June 27, 2012 4:40 PM  

"Circumcision is not rational. It isnt even really defensable."

oh? and no doubt you'll be siting science on this? And what happens when new science over-turns the science you sited?

Or do you suppose that this will be the one issue that Science will not have to self-correct?

Blogger Nate June 27, 2012 4:42 PM  

"My understanding is that the cutting that is called for from, and was practiced originally by, ancient jews was a tiny incision producing a couple drops of blood."

Then your understanding is radically flawed.

Look up the story of Levi and his brother and how they murdered a whole town because all the men were so laid up after being circumcised as adults.

Blogger Markku June 27, 2012 4:44 PM  

My understanding is that the cutting that is called for from, and was practiced originally by, ancient jews was a tiny incision producing a couple drops of blood.

Exd 4:25 Then Zippo'rah took a flint and cut off her son's foreskin, and touched Moses' feet with it, and said, "Surely you are a bridegroom of blood to me!"

How did whe manage to touch Moses' feet with the foreskin, if it was a tiny incision?

Anonymous cherub's revenge June 27, 2012 4:46 PM  

Probably too personal, but my grandpa had to have his done in his 30s for some medical problem or other. I haven't asked specifics. His horror story (I'm sure a bit dramatized) impressed upon my mother who had her sons done.

I've been satisfied with mine so we had our sons done. Although I don't think they take as much off the top these days. It's not as obvious.

Anyway, I like the wash and wear aspect and the look shouts ready to rock and roll like a red, white and blue Corvette with the top down.

As a side note: wash and wear hair was also promulgated by a Jew. So not all of their activities are aimed at nation wrecking. Well, unless you have some really hard opinions on foreskin and hair styling.*

*All puns exist only in your head, unless otherwise noted.

Anonymous scoobius dubious June 27, 2012 4:57 PM  

"If a religion decrees that each child shall have an eye gouged out at three days old, how are we to view that? Arm amputated as a sacrifice? Every third child decapitated?"

But we aren't dealing with some imaginary sci-fi religion like that, we're dealing with a venerable and established and not all that dreadful practice, firmly situated within our culture (as FGM is most certainly NOT).

Personally I have no real problems with circumcision (my own tip is clipped, and I think it's fine), but that's beside the point, I'm sure there are valid arguments both pro and con; but making up kooky extreme hypotheticals I don't think advances anybody's understanding of the issue.

I hate it when arguments break down over "but, but -- what if there was a giant radioactive Nazi Mecha-Godzilla??!!!11!!"






"'Genocidal'? That's a bit extreme, isn't it Scooby?"

No it isn't.

Blogger Chelm Wiseman June 27, 2012 4:59 PM  

Whoa Nate... You have mistaken me for someone else.

I am not an anti-circumcision activist. I am a Jew who is and who had my son circumcised. My point was that it is strictly a religious practice. I can't explain it or defend it and don't feel that I have to. Any arguments in favor of it are strictly spiritual.

Scientific consensus is that there is some medical benefit to circumcision... but I am not sure I believe it.

Blogger Chelm Wiseman June 27, 2012 5:05 PM  

Scoobius doobius

But we aren't dealing with some imaginary sci-fi religion like that, we're dealing with a venerable and established and not all that dreadful practice, firmly situated within our culture (as FGM is most certainly NOT).

I am not sure I agree with argument... in ancient Greece institutionalized pederasty was a venerated practice well established in their culture... I still think it ought to be outlawed.

In some of the biblical (non-Hebrew) cultures, child sacrifice was also venerated. There is even at least one documented instance of Hebrews doing this in the Bible.... I also think that child sacrifice should be outlawed.

A culture can institutionalize immoral practices.

But don't misunderstand, I am not arguing against circumcision, I am just saying that there is no rational basis for it...

Anonymous Enjoying It June 27, 2012 5:38 PM  

My wife says she prefers the circumcised man... it may be irrational, but it is enough for me to be happy that I was cut as an infant

Anonymous Fast and Furious June 27, 2012 5:48 PM  

Nate: Wrong answer, wrong idea, youre outta here...
:D

Anonymous Shild June 27, 2012 5:49 PM  

I hate it when arguments break down over "but, but -- what if there was a giant radioactive Nazi Mecha-Godzilla??!!!11!!"

You know, you make a good point. What if there were a giant radioactive Nazi Mecha-Godzilla?

Examination of this admittedly unlikely scenerio is sure to reveal fascinating sociological and economic implications.

Anonymous Fast and Furious June 27, 2012 5:50 PM  

Enjoying It: Sure, but you don't know what you are missing.

Anonymous Bluesman June 27, 2012 6:03 PM  

Scoobius, my point with the extreme examples was to say that there has to be some point where society has a say in what is done to a child in the name of religion.

I really don't like state infringement on a parent's rights because I have spent so much time fighting for my own rights as a homeschooler and non-vaccinator. My sympathies are with parents who circumcise, it's a difficult issue for me.

Markku, my familiarity with the history of Judaism is so limited I should have withheld that remark. I did some more reading based on what you said, and I found that my previous understanding was unsupportable. My mistake.

Anonymous Robert in Arabia June 27, 2012 6:06 PM  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_p-ttLfkZHQ
The House of Numbers

The great HIV causes AIDS scam.

Blogger Desert Cat June 27, 2012 6:56 PM  

Nate June 27, 2012 11:04 AM
Jews crave persecution. It is their most beloved self-indulgence. I cannot think of any other way of explaining it.


They pelted us with rocks and garbage...

Blogger Emanuel Goldstein June 27, 2012 8:05 PM  

Oh no, Vox, you aren't a Jew hater.

Bullshit.

Of course, Dawkins, Hitchens, and Harris have made anti Jew statements, so what else is new?

How ironic for you to be in their company.

Blogger Emanuel Goldstein June 27, 2012 8:06 PM  

And before you bitch and whines some more, Vox, why don't you return to the USA and join the struggle, instead of hiding in Europe?

Quit being a pussyman.

Anonymous Mazianni June 27, 2012 8:25 PM  

No one seems to think a child might have a right not to be surgically altered?

I sure as hell wish my parents (evangelical christians, not sure how that works) had waited to consult me before having my foreskin lopped off.

Right to remain intact > parental religious obligation, IMO.

Anonymous PurpleHead June 27, 2012 8:45 PM  

"and in the case of males, preventing masturbation."

Surely you're bullshitting?
Otherwise, if I'd have never been cut I'd have died of over exertion in my teens.

/Had it cut for medical reasons. Old enough to consent.

Anonymous T14 June 27, 2012 10:04 PM  

Germany's balls continue to grow in size. Excellent.

Anonymous Bluesman June 27, 2012 10:27 PM  

Purplehead, it's bullshit, but I am not bullshitting you.

"At the same time circumcisions were advocated on men, clitoridectomies (removal of the clitoris) were also performed for the same reason (to treat female masturbators). The US "Orificial Surgery Society" for female "circumcision" operated until 1925, and clitoridectomies and infibulations would continue to be advocated by some through the 1930s. As late as 1936, L. E. Holt, an author of pediatric textbooks, advocated male and female circumcision as a treatment for masturbation."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_male_circumcision#Male_circumcision_to_prevent_masturbation

Anonymous Drew June 27, 2012 11:43 PM  

Sometimes VD deserves a good kick in the face.

Anonymous Toby Temple June 28, 2012 12:53 AM  

No one seems to think a child might have a right not to be surgically altered?

And here I thought children are not suppose to make decisions on their own and that it is their parents job to do it?

And when did being surgically altered a bad thing for children that the default belief is NO TO SUCH PROCEDURES ON CHILDREN?

Blogger Spacebunny June 28, 2012 1:12 AM  

No one seems to think a child might have a right not to be surgically altered?

That's right folks, no more surgeries of any kind for those under the age of consent!

Anonymous p-dawg June 28, 2012 5:23 AM  

Screw your cleft palette or harelip, kid. You have the right not to be surgically altered.

Anonymous FrankNorman June 28, 2012 5:25 AM  

The real agenda behind this? I suspect its a Statist one. Denying that the parents get to decide how their own children should be raised.
And giving that to a group of government bureaucrats instead.

Anonymous Grinder June 28, 2012 5:48 AM  

So jews have a problem with a law protecting children from being surgically mutilated. Big shocker. I don't really care if jews want to mutilate their kids or any other non-whites. In fact, I encourage them to embrace ritual abortion in their wretched religions.

And Rienzi - about nuking cities of Canada. There are so many Canadians already at loose in the great satan who will gladly settle the score but can America really afford to piss off one of the few countries left who don't completely despise them? Yanks got their Whitehouse burned last time they messed with Canada in 1812.

Anonymous scoobius dubious June 28, 2012 6:48 AM  

"Yanks got their Whitehouse burned last time they messed with Canada in 1812."

The Yanks didn't mess with "Canada" in 1812, they took on (and for just reasons) the feckin British Empire, of which "Canada" was merely a simpering vassal at the time; and moreover at the time the British Empire was the greatest military power in the world, so it took a bit of balls. Our capital was burned by a superior force of British soldiers and mariners, not by you Canuck p*ssies.

As usual, a Canuck doesn't even need a Yank to pwn him: you people are self-pwning, which is why we despise you so much.

Anonymous Angel June 28, 2012 7:19 AM  

- A recent report in the German news weekly Der Spiegel documents Germany’s supply of submarines to Israel, which she is probably fitting with nuclear-tipped cruise missiles (“Israel Fitting Nuclear Arms on German-Supplied Subs,” AFP, June 5, 2012). The submarines (three of which have been delivered with three more in the pipe line) are largely financed by Germany. Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak was quoted as saying, “The Germans can be proud to have ensured the existence of the state of Israel for several years to come.”

It would seem to me that Germany supports Jews and Israel........

Anonymous Big Bill June 28, 2012 10:11 AM  

"Oh come on Vox. You of all people should see the mistake in this statement. No, a person does not become a Jew simply by getting cut but a boy cannot become a Jew without being cut."

True, but what does that "cut" involve? Goyim should know that there is no universally approved eternal Jewish way of circumcising. Jews like to present a united front to us goyim but there is considerable dissent among Jews.

There has also been a long evolutionary history of circumcision, much of it in the last couple centuries as Jew escaped rabbinic domination, joined the goy Enlightenment and learned about things like "germs".

At other times in Jewish history, for example, rabbi-certified "circumcision" was as minor as nicking the foreskin enough to make it bleed.

At one time (even now, in medieval Jewish colonies around the world), circumcision was performed by a mohel at home, with a ritual knife, no handwashing or sterilizing required or expected.

As one might expect from a mohel whose workaday occupation is a butcher in a butcher shop, Jewish babies' penises have regularly (if infrequently) been chopped off.

Therefore many civilized, enlightened Jews have decided to circumcise in a hospital with sterile surgical prep, using special foreskin clamps to prevent penis loss.

In New York and New Jersey (where many medieval, rabbi-ruled Jewish colonies are located) the circumcision is more rough and ready: they mouthsuck the baby's dick after cutting off the foreskin (aka "metitzeh b'peh").

Sadly, there are several well known mohels with venereal disease who have sucked baby dick and infected the babies with VD. Typically, the babies die in just a few days due to their virtually non-existent week-old immune system.

Regrettably, New York and New Jersey politicians do not ban dick-sucking babies or prosecute diseased baby dick-suckers. They issue various "advisories" and "recommendations", but are too politically sensitive to actually stop the practice. Nor has Chuck Schumer or any other "enlightened" Jewish politician introduced a bill to protect these poor Jewish babies.

Over the ages there has been plenty of room in the Jewish community to modify their more grotesque, dangerous, bronze age practices. The ban in Germany need not be a complete ban (penis nicking doesn't seem to be a big health problem), but some limits should be imposed.

It is so sad that the most enlightened Jews--Jews that would never let the local Jewish butcher (a traditional workday occupation for mohels) with a knife hack on their OWN baby's penis, will nonetheless cover for those Jews that do.

On another level, you have to appreciate Jewish race loyalty. Even enlightened Jews will look the other way as Jewish babies are sacrificed in order to keep the goyim out of their affairs.

Anonymous Anonymous June 28, 2012 10:36 AM  

"As usual, a Canuck doesn't even need a Yank to pwn him: you people are self-pwning, which is why we despise you so much."

Many of those Brits settled in Canada...as for Canadian p*ssies, we have never lost a war...and we have fought in many.

- Abaddon

Blogger Vox June 28, 2012 10:58 AM  

And before you bitch and whines some more, Vox, why don't you return to the USA and join the struggle, instead of hiding in Europe?

What struggle? And again, I'm not the one bitching and whining here. That would be the Jews. I have no problem with the Germans passing whatever laws they like. I have the good sense to not live in Germany even though I speak German.

Blogger Markku June 28, 2012 11:31 AM  

Mein K... struggle, natürlich.

Anonymous Big Bill June 28, 2012 4:04 PM  

Daniel:"it is done for reasons other than hygienic. Hygiene is irrelevant."

Actually, the Jewish baby dick-sucking IS done for hygienic reasons. Some Bull Rabbis years ago decided that it would be more hygienic to suck each baby's dick than not. In fact many of the medieval Jews still argue for continuing the dick-sucking for that reason despite the deaths due to mouth-to-penis venereal disease.

Of course we in the West have known for generations about mouth-to-genital disease transmission, but the medieval Jewish community has not caught on.

Anonymous Mazianni June 28, 2012 6:28 PM  

"That's right folks, no more surgeries of any kind for those under the age of consent!"

And of course, that's EXACTLY what I meant ... christ.

Parents should not be able to inflict arbitrary surgeries on their children without consent. Surgeries that a) modify them for life, b) are completely medically unnecessary (whatever might have been the case in ancient times), and c) have demonstrable negative side effects in later life.

Anonymous Grinder June 28, 2012 8:32 PM  


As usual, a Canuck doesn't even need a Yank to pwn him: you people are self-pwning, which is why we despise you so much.


You despise us because man for man, Canadians are superior to Americans in every way. Americans can't win a war unless Canadians are there backing them up, hence Vietnam, Iraq, Somalia etc. Of course, sucking so much jew dick is repaid by jew hollywood portraying Americans as such heroes.

Blogger DW June 28, 2012 8:46 PM  

Yes, because God just mandated circumcision for no reason at all, it was just all around pointless, barbaric, and designed to hinder sexual pleasure (Jesus but you'd think that's all some people live for). For the hysterical ones among us: surgery is not mutilation. Circumcised men still enjoy sex, quite unlike women who have been circumcised. The two are in no way equivalent.

Anonymous Grinder June 28, 2012 9:41 PM  

mu·ti·late (mytl-t)
tr.v. mu·ti·lat·ed, mu·ti·lat·ing, mu·ti·lates
1. To deprive of a limb or an essential part; cripple.
2. To disfigure by damaging irreparably: mutilate a statue. See Synonyms at batter1.
3. To make imperfect by excising or altering parts.


Since there are numerous men who regret the choice having been made for them at birth and some even seek foreskin restoration, I think the only sane course is to protect infants from this mutilation. If some yidlings want to have it done when they turn 12, say, then fine. God's covenant has been rescinded with Christ's coming. Sacrifices are no longer necessary, good works are the path to everlasting life.

Anonymous Toby Temple June 28, 2012 9:58 PM  

Parents should not be able to inflict arbitrary surgeries on their children without consent.

I can't believe that such an argument is even considered effective. Children do not have the right to consent. The laws punishing pedophiles and the age restriction for alcohol and cigarettes are just few examples that proves this.

a) modify them for life - Again, any modification that will last for life is not ALWAYS BAD

b) are completely medically unnecessary (whatever might have been the case in ancient times) - Simple physical deformations are not always corrected purely because of medically necessity.

c) have demonstrable negative side effects in later life. - I, my brothers and my father were circumcised. My uncles and male cousins as well. No negative side effects ever. So the chances of such side effects are very very slim to be even considered an argument against circumcision. Its like saying you should never ever cross the street because a lot of people already got hit by cars when doing so.

Anonymous Mazianni June 28, 2012 10:31 PM  

"I can't believe that such an argument is even considered effective. Children do not have the right to consent."

Are you serious? We are talking about a procedure that has absolutely no purpose other than to fulfill a 3000-year-old Hebrew religious obligation.

Sure, modifications for life are not always bad. But one that eliminates a significant percentage of nerve endings in the penis IS BAD.

You, your father, uncles, cousins, etc., are welcome to assume there are no side effects. The truth is you and I will NEVER KNOW because our parents made that decision for us.

I understand my parents were clueless and simply doing the best they knew how, but I certainly would not make that decision for myself today, nor will I make it for my own son. If he wants to, he's welcome to cut his own foreskin off if he likes once he turns 18. I suspect he won't.

Blogger Spacebunny June 29, 2012 1:09 AM  


You, your father, uncles, cousins, etc., are welcome to assume there are no side effects. The truth is you and I will NEVER KNOW because our parents made that decision for us.


And yet you made the definitive statement to the contrary. Brilliant!

Anonymous Toby Temple June 29, 2012 5:44 AM  

The truth is you and I will NEVER KNOW because our parents made that decision for us.

WTF!? Did you forget you stated this?

have demonstrable negative side effects in later life.

Quoting Spacebunny - "Brilliant!"

Are you serious? We are talking about a procedure that has absolutely no purpose other than to fulfill a 3000-year-old Hebrew religious obligation.

That is irrelevant. You claimed that parents should not be able to inflict arbitrary surgeries on their children without consent. Children do not have the right to consent. It is their parents who make decisions for them.

But one that eliminates a significant percentage of nerve endings in the penis IS BAD.

That is a naked assertion. Prove it.

Anonymous Mazianni June 29, 2012 10:48 AM  

"have demonstrable negative side effects in later life.
Quoting Spacebunny - "Brilliant!"

Fine, you pedants. Let me rephrase that. :D

You and I will never experience what it's like to have a foreskin, though evidence exists that retaining those nerve endings does make a difference in sensation. To me this qualifies as a negative side effect.

"Children do not have the right to consent. It is their parents who make decisions for them."

I'll refrain from pointing out obvious counterexamples to your blanket statement, as unlike most of the commenters in this thread, I understand what you mean in spite of the generalization.

I'm happy to agree to disagree, but I still think circumcision is one of the (many) decisions parents should *not* make on behalf of their infant children, despite their parental authority.

Blogger Spacebunny June 29, 2012 12:52 PM  

though evidence exists that retaining those nerve endings does make a difference in sensation.


And evidence exists proving the opposite. Another non point for you.

I'll refrain from pointing out obvious counterexamples to your blanket statement,

Of course you will, because then we would be forced to point out the same for your, at this point, numerous blanket statements.

I'm happy to agree to disagree, but I still think circumcision is one of the (many) decisions parents should *not* make on behalf of their infant children, despite their parental authority.

Somehow I'm guessing (you haven't exactly shown yourself to be terrible concerned with consistency)you're just fine with parents having the right to inject poison directly into their infant children, but I'd be thrilled to wrong on this score.

Anonymous Mazianni June 29, 2012 1:35 PM  

"And evidence exists proving the opposite."

Indeed, there is controversy and studies aren't conclusive. Exactly why this should be a personal decision taken by adults, not one inflicted on infants.

"Of course you will, because then we would be forced to point out the same for your, at this point, numerous blanket statements."

You're determined to ignore my point in order to win an argument, so I won't carry this any further.

"Somehow I'm guessing (you haven't exactly shown yourself to be terrible concerned with consistency)you're just fine with parents having the right to inject poison directly into their infant children, but I'd be thrilled to wrong on this score."

I have no idea what you're on about here. I'm the one arguing that parents should not have permanent surgical modifications performed on their children that are at best cosmetic or medically pointless, at worst permanently damaging.

Anonymous Bajaringan July 03, 2012 8:34 AM  

Nice post, keep writing...:)

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