Vox Popoli: This is why you must carry

A masked gunman shot dead 14 people and wounded 50 others at a midnight screening of the new Batman movie in Denver. The 6ft tall man, dressed in black and wearing a gas mask opened fire at the showing of The Dark Knight Rises in a mall in Aurora, Colorado and set off a smoke or tear gas bomb.

Witnesses said that the man, thought to be in his early twenties, burst through the emergency exit at the front of the auditorium, wearing body armour, and began firing into the audience with a rifle and two handguns as he made his way up the stairs, picking his victims at random.

It will be interesting to see if Obama is dumb enough to try running on gun control after this. The gas mask bit is certainly unusual and one wonders if the shooter was inspired by Bane or perhaps the local airport.

Labels: politics, society

232 Comments:

Koanic July 20, 2012 6:48 AM: I think this shooting is going to
1. Seriously piss people off, and
2. Make a LOT of people start carrying, regardless of law.

I didn't really pay attention to the others as a personal threat, but there's a line and my ability to sit in a theater and watch Batman without feeling like a duck in a shooting gallery is it.

It's almost the perfect pro-gun crime - directly threaten a bunch of people who love vigilante art.
jm July 20, 2012 6:58 AM: I've always gotten the creepiest vibes from that airport. Even when I was a dumb kid who didn't know anything, I could sense something was seriously off about that place.
Rosalys July 20, 2012 7:00 AM: I'm reading a Brad Thor novel at the moment and at the beginning there is talk and theories about the weird art at the new Denver Airport. I filed it away in the back of my mind to google this, believing that this being a work of fiction, certainly this doesn't really exist. What the...? Who commissioned crap like this?
Shild July 20, 2012 7:11 AM: This is horrible. It kind of makes you empathize with the pro gun control position; if the people aren't responsible enough to own guns without killing each other then why should they be aloud to have them? It would have been different if an armed movie goer had stopped the psychopath, but since that didn't happen the situation implies that the people are not to be trusted with weapons.

Empathize, but not agree. The reason the movie goers weren't armed was mainly because carrying nowadays is a huge hassle. Aside from keeping up with the weapon and license you have to be aware of all the laws and regulations from the federal, state, and local level. You also have to know the policies for any businesses and organization whose property you plan to enter (theaters for example). Even then someone may get a glimpse of the weapon under your shirt and call the police on you, resulting in inconvenient conversations and you might get arrested for "disturbing the peace" or somesuch even if you're within the letter of the law.

All in all, it's usually not worth it to carry unless you really suspect you may need it, in which case you'd strongly consider altering your plans so that you're going out and taking care of your business at a safer time and place.
Shild July 20, 2012 7:23 AM: By the way, what's up with that weird site you linked to? Some kind of conspiracy stuff? What, was it the first hit on a google search or something?
The Great Martini July 20, 2012 7:23 AM: On the contrary, I think this used more as a rally cry for pro-gun control. After all, in all probability there were conceal carriers there in the theater, and what did it accomplish?

Everyone seems to think that a prevalence of conceal carry will always result in some John Wayne stepping up to the plate to save the day. Unfortunately, there just aren't that many John Waynes to go around.
E. PERLINE July 20, 2012 7:47 AM: Muslim?
Stilicho July 20, 2012 7:48 AM: Why didn't the police protect these people? Why didn't the abundance a laws stop this behavior? Oh, right.
Galt-in-Da-Box July 20, 2012 7:57 AM: While you were sleeping:
*Comrade-0 is due to sign the Small Arms (grabbing) Treaty in a week.
*MIZZ HITLERy has been pushing for it hard and heavy in the predominately Democrat Senate, where 67 votes mean goodbye 2nd Amendment.
*What a coincidence one of these "random mass shootings" takes place every year when the Brady bunch and other communists want to disarm US...Or not.
You better get on the phones/email and make your senators aware you're not buying this "alCIAduh" bullshit and have them shoot this thing down.
Rantor July 20, 2012 7:57 AM: If you are a successful businessman it is the government's fault.

If you are a mad shooter, who will be blaimed? The government made the road he used to get to the theater, the government ensured his car could get ther on less than a tank of gas...
The Great Martini July 20, 2012 8:02 AM: "Why didn't the police protect these people? Why didn't the abundance a laws stop this behavior? Oh, right."

I think the political will of the public, which is the topic of this post, is to hark back to somewhere around 1935. Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers didn't pack heat when they went to the theater. When dad took the family to the soda fountain after "the show" he was never in danger of having his 38 fall to the floor inadvertently.

Whether or not collective memory is an accurate depiction of history, that is America's political will, and they will vote for the person who promises to restore it. People don't want to go to the movies expecting the O.K. Corral, and I doubt they want to plan for it. They don't want to think about it. They just want to live in a country where it doesn't happen. That is simply political realism.
Hood July 20, 2012 8:03 AM: "All in all, it's usually not worth it to carry unless you really suspect you may need it, in which case you'd strongly consider altering your plans so that you're going out and taking care of your business at a safer time and place."

I do not have the power to predict when a violent criminal is going to harass me or my family. Besides, a gun is way lighter and easier to conceal than a police officer. Every position on your first post is absolutely ridiculous.
Hamilton July 20, 2012 8:09 AM: Damn, that is some jacked up art at the airport. Even for Denver.
ridip July 20, 2012 8:11 AM: I see the idiot children are out early. Yes the media will use this as a pro-control argument. I don't. Criminals by definition do not obey the law.

Most theaters have do not carry signs that meet the legal requirements. Most businesses and even some government buildings do not. The easy answer is carry any damn way in public places. After all they love to tell us, if you aren't doing anything illegal, you have nothing to worry about. And because MPAI, if you are otherwise behaving in a legal manner you have nothing to worry about carrying in a public forbidden space.
Salt July 20, 2012 8:13 AM: All in all, it's usually not worth it to carry unless you really suspect you may need it

Like going to the midnight showing of Batman. Got ya.

in which case you'd strongly consider altering your plans so that you're going out and taking care of your business at a safer time and place.

Wait for it to come out on Blue-Ray. Got ya.

Evidently the correct answer is - carry. It might save your life.
Markku July 20, 2012 8:20 AM: People don't want to go to the movies expecting the O.K. Corral, and I doubt they want to plan for it.

It is a paradox. When enough people carry, a criminal can expect that in any given crowd, be it theater or otherwise, will have people who carry. Eventually you can become a freeloader on the new situation, and choose to not carry. But, of course, when enough people do THAT...
Athor Pel July 20, 2012 8:22 AM: "Shild July 20, 2012 7:23 AM

By the way, what's up with that weird site you linked to? Some kind of conspiracy stuff? What, was it the first hit on a google search or something?"

You don't even know what you don't know. The rabbit hole is deep and the world is not what you think it is.

As for the Denver airport, the mural isn't the only disturbing piece of 'art' on the property, Google the following term, "demon horse at denver airport".

One last thing, the horse statue killed the artist that made it.
JartStar July 20, 2012 8:23 AM: It will be interesting to see if Obama is dumb enough to try running on gun control after this.

If he does, he will lose the election. C&C continues to gain popularity here in the states and there's a growing market for the guns.
Bane (the other one, but not that one) July 20, 2012 8:25 AM: We are on the verge of a Gestapo/NKVD/Stazi Police State...

The U.S. Monetary System and Descent into Fascism An Interview with Dr. Edwin Vieira

By Dr. Vieira's calculation, we have roughly until the end of the year. The solution must come out of the States. From the bottom up. Not, the top down. Long interview, but required reading for all...
ridip July 20, 2012 8:26 AM: "Even then someone may get a glimpse of the weapon under your shirt and call the police on you, resulting in inconvenient conversations and you might get arrested for 'disturbing the peace' or somesuch even if you're within the letter of the law."

Shild do you have an actual referencable example of this or is it simply a strawman? If somebody's doing this, they've been watching too much Hollywood.

Most people I know that C&C carry in a pocket holster, their purse or something like that. Heck, visit Branson, they have custom-made clutches, hand bags and Bible cases that accommodate easy access to a holstered weapon.
Professor Hale July 20, 2012 8:27 AM: No doubt, the theater management will post a "no guns permitted" and that will solve this.
Kickass July 20, 2012 8:29 AM: How is you brain able to handle both breathing and typing at the same time?
Shild July 20, 2012 8:35 AM: Like going to the midnight showing of Batman. Got ya.
...

Evidently the correct answer is - carry. It might save your life.

Yeah. My point is basically that Koanic is right. Before this event people wouldn't bother to carry at the movies because of all the trouble, making them vulnerable to the gas mask psycho.

After a highly publicized event like this, however, the benefits of carrying will start to outweigh the inconvenience in peoples' minds.

Side note, I wonder if we'll have any calls for censorship from people blaming the movies for this.
IM2L844 July 20, 2012 8:36 AM: After all, in all probability there were conceal carriers there in the theater, and what did it accomplish?

There's no way to know if there were. I suppose some statistics could be found to produce some odds, but even if we grant that there were a couple of licensed carriers, it seems likely they were using good judgement not fire their weapons in a crowded chaotic situation where a stray bullet would have a strong likelihood of hitting an innocent person and making things worse.

You can be sure that the media would be all over it for weeks on end if a licensed citizen gun carrier had accidentally killed an innocent person when returning fire in a situation like this.
Shild July 20, 2012 8:38 AM: Shild do you have an actual referencable example of this or is it simply a strawman?

The instructor when I got my CCL told me that stuff like this happens sometimes.
Starbuck July 20, 2012 8:38 AM: By the way, what's up with that weird site you linked to? Some kind of conspiracy stuff? What, was it the first hit on a google search or something?

I have been to DIA (Denver International Airport) - These paintings are for real. They are really there. I first saw them about 1996. Theory has it is there is a DUMB (Deep Underground Military Base) there. Lots of DIA conspiracy theories.

The place does give me the creeps. Lots of Masionic symbols all over the place. Whenever I go to the airport I get a feeling of darkness there, before I ever read anything about DIA. But this could just be MY imagination.
Koanic July 20, 2012 8:38 AM: Who's actually going to carry? Young, high testosterone dudes.

It's not like Grandma's gonna pack unless crime reaches epidemic proportions.

So the relevant debate is young, high testosterone dudes.

Here's how it goes:

MSM: "Guns 'r bad m'kay bla bla bla"
Dude to self: "Yeah, who cares. I'm not going to get shot watching Batman."

Dudes that age could care less about society and history, and believe in their own personal invincibility. It takes a lot to get their attention.

But having to worry about some dick tear gassing and bullet hosing you while you're trying to enjoy your favorite superhero in a crowded theater - that'll do it.

It was kinda funny when it was happening to high school bullies, New Yorkers and women. But not anymore.

There's something about this incident that transforms it from "safety first, wear a helmet, huh yuk!" to "I am not gonna be a soft-shell pussy, waiting to get blown away."
Amy Haines July 20, 2012 8:41 AM: Of course he will campaign on the gun control platform. If you take away everyone's guns, you take them away from criminals, too. Jeesh, get with the liberal program already.

My state does not permit open or concealed carry unless you work in a profession, like law enforcement or armored car transport, where it is necessary, or have been assaulted (usually multiple times, and usually only if you are a woman) and have permission from the gov't to carry. Even then, use of force is always considered the cowardly way out of whatever dangerous situation in which one finds oneself. I'm in NJ, one of those blue, talk-your-way-out-of-trouble states where negotiation with, and sympathy and compassion for your attacker are the only socially approved methods of dealing with danger.

For all of that, though, we do have Castle Doctrine, but I don't know of many instances where it has been applied and where the homeowner won the case on self-defense grounds. So I'm armed, but only in my home since that is the only place I am legally permitted to be armed. It's not worth carrying outside of the house if it means going to prison for life because I illegally stopped a mass-murder in progress.
ridip July 20, 2012 8:47 AM: "The place does give me the creeps. Lots of Masionic symbols all over the place. Whenever I go to the airport I get a feeling of darkness there, before I ever read anything about DIA. But this could just be MY imagination."

Starbuck, it's not your imagination and it's not just they airport. The City of Denver does the same thing to me just crossing the city line. It's been that way since I was a kid.

In my twenties I found out there is actually something to it. The police in Denver have a huge problem with occult killings and related things that they work very hard to keep out of the press. I saw some of their files first hand, sitting in a pastor's office when they were looking for advice on dealing with it. The pics made most horror flicks look tame.
zen0 July 20, 2012 8:48 AM: Shild July 20, 2012 7:23 AM

By the way, what's up with that weird site you linked to? Some kind of conspiracy stuff? What, was it the first hit on a google search or something?

The Denver Airport murals have been considered an Illuminati message board for years.

New in town?
Rantor July 20, 2012 8:49 AM: I have a friend who always carries. When we go out with our wives, and others, he is armed. I like that and I feel safer because of it. I have been reading up and studying the laws in my state and trying to decide whether I will join the CC folk. The biggest obstacle is the number of places around here that prohibit weapons.

In this situation, waiting for the police was obviously not the right answer. Perhaps theaters should have some armed guards... interestingly, in a seemingly low crime area, there always seems to be at least one patrol car and two cops keeping an eye on things around our local, popular 15-plex theater.
DrW July 20, 2012 8:51 AM: Why hasn't there been a description of the shooter posted anywhere?
Vox July 20, 2012 8:55 AM: They already have him. James Holmes, white, 24, living in Aurora, mother in San Diego.
Markku July 20, 2012 9:04 AM: I see, a couple of hours ago I heard someone say "another Breivik fan" in a neighbor cubicle, and didn't know what he was talking about at the time.
OK July 20, 2012 9:07 AM: Are you allowed to carry in Italy?
Aviator4 July 20, 2012 9:08 AM: Without question liberals will exploit this and tout the need for further gun restrictions. After all, as we all know, criminals always obey the law and wouldn't dare carry or use a weapon in areas where they are prohibited or in the event that guns were made illegal.

One example of the result of tight gun control laws is the Georgia Tech campus, which borders on quite a bad area of Atlanta. Students are prohibited from carrying guns as the entire campus is a "gun free zone." Not surprisingly, the number of robberies, muggings and shootings of GT students is at an all-time high and students are demanding the right to protect themselves, which has fallen on deaf ears to the GT brass.

Apprehended criminals have even admitted that they are purposely targeting the GT campus for their crimes because they can be assured that the student are unarmed, which certainly makes their job that much easier. One solution proposed by GT officials is to start a public campaign, letting the local public know that GT indeed is a gun free zone campus and violators will be prosecuted to the fullest extent.

That should solve everything.
Salt July 20, 2012 9:10 AM: It's not worth carrying outside of the house if it means going to prison for life because I illegally stopped a mass-murder in progress.

Better to be carried by 6 than tried by 12 huh?
Koanic July 20, 2012 9:11 AM: I wonder why the shooter didn't bring a rip-off layer of clothing, change in the fog, and join the fleeing victims.
Josh July 20, 2012 9:12 AM: My fiance, this morning:

"My question is why in the hell no one else in the theater had a gun so they could shoot his stupid ass?"
Mr. Nightstick July 20, 2012 9:21 AM: I think we have a clear correlation between mass shooters and public schools. Why do our public schools keep producing these mass shooters?
Josh July 20, 2012 9:22 AM: No, mr nightstick, it's the violent video games and violent movies!
mjb July 20, 2012 9:23 AM: Josh, do you carry at the theater?
CJ July 20, 2012 9:25 AM: This attack was pretty well calculated to cause the most chaos. People are in the dark and not looking at the door and then the guy comes in looking like any other goofball that shows up to these movies in costume. Once the gas and gunfire start, it's pandemonium. Even if you were armed, you'd have to have second thoughts about returning fire in the middle of all that.
rycamor July 20, 2012 9:27 AM: The Great Martini July 20, 2012 7:23 AM

On the contrary, I think this used more as a rally cry for pro-gun control. After all, in all probability there were conceal carriers there in the theater, and what did it accomplish?

Everyone seems to think that a prevalence of conceal carry will always result in some John Wayne stepping up to the plate to save the day. Unfortunately, there just aren't that many John Waynes to go around.

Here is how that kind of thing rolls in my neck of the woods: 71-Year-Old Saves the Day as Two Men Try to Rob Internet Café.
Wayne Johns July 20, 2012 9:27 AM: Anyone in that theater who was carrying would have been in a much better position to save themselves if the gunman had approached them. Imagine yourself at the back of the theater, armed and with your family. An armed retreat would have been the best decision. The smoke bombs were likely set off to obscure the shooter from any potential concealed carry. In the pandemonium and smoke a concealed carry person would have a difficult time identifying who was shooting and firing back would have high risk of hitting innocents. The shooter only needed to point in the general direction of the audience and pull the trigger to hit people. Life is not like a Chuck Norris movie. Concealed carry can save your life and your odds of needing it are increasing all the time.
Mr. Nighstick July 20, 2012 9:27 AM: Josh, Why do former public school students keep making violent movies and video games?
Viking July 20, 2012 9:28 AM: I wonder if the theater had a no guns policy.
If so, I really hope someone sue them into bankruptcy.
Mike43 July 20, 2012 9:29 AM: Professor Hale July 20, 2012 8:27 AM

"No doubt, the theater management will post a "no guns permitted" and that will solve this."

Having read and commented on Professor Hale's fine blog, I can safely call: Sarcasm off, at the end of his post.
Shild July 20, 2012 9:30 AM: The Denver Airport murals have been considered an Illuminati message board for years.

New in town?

I've heard of the conspiracy theories before, but that strange "esoteric alef" website just seems like an odd choice. Any image of the mural would make the point as effectively.
The other skeptic July 20, 2012 9:33 AM: And Piers Morgan, silly twat, calls for gun control.

Oh wait, maybe he means both hands on the gun and making sure every bullet is a center of mass shot.
harry12 July 20, 2012 9:35 AM: Posted as a reminder ( happened on 07-13-12 ):

Man, 71, opens fire on Florida cafe robbery suspects
here
Shild July 20, 2012 9:35 AM: Re: ryacamor

That video is one of the most awesome things I've ever seen.

Thanks for that. I needed a good pick-me-up after all this terrible news.
harry12 July 20, 2012 9:36 AM: Sorry for being olde and slow...
Amy Haines July 20, 2012 9:42 AM: @Salt: Better to be carried by 6 than tried by 12 huh?

You don't live in NJ, I take it. Even if a murder charge didn't stick, I'd still do prison time for illegally carrying a concealed weapon. Very anti-gun state, this is, and prosecutors are willing to bring anyone and everyone up on charges for any- and every thing that smells close to a crime.
RC July 20, 2012 9:42 AM: If one follows the arguments of the pro-vaccination crowd, everyone should be armed. The unarmed are merely taking advantage of the CC contingent.
Crusader Corim July 20, 2012 9:45 AM: I live in a nearby suburb and work in Aurora. Aurora is heavily military and conservative. There may have been concealed carriers in the audience, or even soldiers. It sounds like at first people thought it was part of the show, then he was concealed in the smoke. Plus, a large percentage probably thought "midnight showing of Batman, no need to carry here".

But I doubt that will stay the same attitude. I think this will help gun rights.
The other skeptic July 20, 2012 9:47 AM: You don't live in NJ, I take it. Even if a murder charge didn't stick, I'd still do prison time for illegally carrying a concealed weapon. Very anti-gun state, this is, and prosecutors are willing to bring anyone and everyone up on charges for any- and every thing that smells close to a crime.

You can always move to another state.
Stilicho July 20, 2012 9:47 AM: You don't live in NJ, I take it. Even if a murder charge didn't stick, I'd still do prison time for illegally carrying a concealed weapon. Very anti-gun state, this is, and prosecutors are willing to bring anyone and everyone up on charges for any- and every thing that smells close to a crime.

And now you folks have released Gov. Fat Bastard to take the program to a national level. As if Corzine wasn't enough. Thanks.
Spacebunny July 20, 2012 9:54 AM: Who's actually going to carry? Young, high testosterone dudes.

Nope, Grandpa will save your ass. There are plenty of stories around about the elderly shooting people trying to rob them and what not, now some of them are defending their homes, but not all, as in the case last week.
Starbuck July 20, 2012 9:56 AM: Starbuck, it's not your imagination and it's not just they airport. The City of Denver does the same thing to me just crossing the city line. It's been that way since I was a kid.

In my twenties I found out there is actually something to it. The police in Denver have a huge problem with occult killings and related things that they work very hard to keep out of the press. I saw some of their files first hand, sitting in a pastor's office when they were looking for advice on dealing with it. The pics made most horror flicks look tame.

I live in Fort Collins.. I agree though. i loathe going to denver. I avoid it at all costs. And I used to love going to chicago when I lived in Illinois. Go figure. I might have to do some research on the weird stuff in denver.. Thanks for the tip..

They already have him. James Holmes, white, 24, living in Aurora, mother in San Diego.

oh great.. I have a son by that name.. but he is 21 and at school in maryland.
a face in the crowd July 20, 2012 10:00 AM: Who's actually going to carry? Young, high testosterone dudes.

I'm in my 40's - I carry everywhere. Medium level testosterone, and no desire whatsoever to be a hero or a cowboy.

However, as a man, I am willing to do what I need to to protect my family (and protecting myself is part of that).
Kickass July 20, 2012 10:02 AM: I guess all those stories of the elderly defending themselves with guns are my imagination.
CJ July 20, 2012 10:04 AM: And forces on both sides of the argument are already spinning this their way. Given the specifics, it would've been hard for an armed person to take this guy down. Of course, the existing gun laws didn't stop him either. It doesn't prove anything in isolation, but there are clearly circumstances where an armed civilian has prevented a crime.

On the 71 year old, I loved how the robbers complained that he didn't have to keep shooting, and their gun didn't work anyway.
IM2L844 July 20, 2012 10:04 AM: It looks like about 0.2% of the population in Colorado have concealed carry permits. It's probably slightly higher since that statistic is from 2004. The capacity of that theater is 300 people so the likelihood is that there was even one person in that theater with a concealed carry permit and a weapon is doubtful.

As to the prevalence of young and dumb testosterone laden males being the primary demographic to carry weapons. Probably true for unlicensed carriers. It is a more dubious claim that the young and dumb testosterone laden males would be more likely than any other group to spend (waste?) their time and discretionary income to actually obtain a permit. 30 is still young by my reckoning, but I would guess the 21-30 crowd is less likely to spend (waste?) their time and discretionary income to obtain a CC permit than the 30 and above crowd.
Spacebunny July 20, 2012 10:05 AM: I'm in my 40's - I carry everywhere. Medium level testosterone, and no desire whatsoever to be a hero or a cowboy.

I know of several people in their 50's and upper 60's who have just gotten their CC license. According to them, the people taking these classes are their peers.
cherub's revenge July 20, 2012 10:06 AM: Good ole Caloflorido. All the transplants, transients, military, soulless burbs, diversity and lack of community of Florida and California without the nice weather.

Unless you're raising cattle, the interior West isn't fit for humans to live in.
Professor Hale July 20, 2012 10:07 AM: ...Young, high testosterone dudes.

Yep. That's me. 51 and still young and high testosterone. I always carry in theaters. Haven't seen any psycopaths sooting up the place near where I live. There may be a connection there.
Greatheart July 20, 2012 10:08 AM: When I was listening to the Denver police channel, I originally thought it was an extention of the gunfight that occurred in front of my motel room in east Denver about a mile from the theatre.

The shooter was caught as soon as he exited the theatre because the Aurora PD had an off duty officer working security. They ID'd him fairly quickly when they ran his car plates after the first responders found other incendiary devices in his car. They're also searching his home for other explosives.
OK July 20, 2012 10:08 AM: Are you allowed to carry in Italy?
Spacebunny July 20, 2012 10:08 AM: It looks like about 0.2% of the population in Colorado have concealed carry permits. It's probably slightly higher since that statistic is from 2004.

That may be, but CO used to be an open carry state - no permit required and, while it's been a long time since I was there, there were an awful lot of people open carrying there. I remember seeing "gun checks" at the bars.
Professor Hale July 20, 2012 10:12 AM: In local news, we had a mass shooting at our local mall last week. A drug dealer from Richmond was selling in the parking lot outside our multi-plex. Once of his customers noticed the dealer had a lot of money so he pulled a gun to rob the "undocumented small businessman who didn't make that business by himself, but had help from the government". The two strugged for the gun and they both shot themselves. No fatalities. No one else hurt. Both doofuses in custody.
Shild July 20, 2012 10:12 AM: I know of several people in their 50's and upper 60's who have just gotten their CC license. According to them, the people taking these classes are their peers.

When I got my CCL, one of the other guys in the class was 90. First timer, too.
Koanic July 20, 2012 10:13 AM: I know that a lot of older guys carry. Middle aged men and the elderly. It takes maturity to go through all the hassle of a CC permit, and the senior citizens belong to a more pro-gun generation. Hell I've been to the pro-gun political club meetings and been the youngest guy in the room. It's not like I'm unaware.

But then, current CC carriers are a tiny percentage anyway.

To get a big swing in CC numbers, legal or not, I think you've got to get the young guys carrying. And this event, I think, is a big step in that direction.
Kickass July 20, 2012 10:13 AM: http://vigilantcitizen.com/ has some interesting stuff on the murals..careful where you follow him though.
BO July 20, 2012 10:14 AM: That is why, as your president, I will make the Dept. of Homeland Security, bigger, better, and stronger. I will use every available government resource to root out of every nook and cranny the forces of evil from your lives.
Kickass July 20, 2012 10:17 AM: Just tell women they are not allowed to and they will demand to do it. Reverse psychology, everbody plays everybody wins.
Kickass July 20, 2012 10:23 AM: Strange. Eyewitness claims he was sitting in front row and the man sitting next to him answered his cellphone and walked toward the emergency exit in front. Next thing, the shooter comes in from where the guy went out. Claims something exploded behind him, but he isnt sure. Saw the interview live. Says he thought it was publicity stunt at first.
Professor Hale July 20, 2012 10:26 AM: @ Kickass,
While I am all for women having the means to defend themselves. The thought of all of them being armed scares the piss out of me. Women (as a group)are already too confrontational and too willing to put themselves into danger. This is a formula for ensuring a whole lot of innocent men get killed for looking the wrong way or saying the wrong thing.
IM2L844 July 20, 2012 10:32 AM: Concealed carry permit guy vs. illegal carry punks
Greatheart July 20, 2012 10:40 AM: @Kickass, what station was that interview on? The police were originally looking for two shooters, but never could find a second.
a face in the crowd July 20, 2012 10:41 AM: I know of several people in their 50's and upper 60's who have just gotten their CC license. According to them, the people taking these classes are their peers.

My mother just finished her CCW class last month; she's 70.
James Dixon July 20, 2012 10:43 AM: > Shild do you have an actual referencable example of this or is it simply a strawman? If somebody's doing this, they've been watching too much Hollywood.

Obviously the name Erik Scott doesn't mean anything to you.

http://pjmedia.com/blog/gunned-down-in-vegas-what-really-happened-to-erik-scott/
PM July 20, 2012 10:49 AM: How did he know which theater room was showing batman, or any movie for that matter?
Matthew July 20, 2012 10:52 AM: From the subheadings of the linked news article: "Aspiring sportscaster Jessica Ghawi among those killed".

Shooting at theater; women, Jews suffer most.
PM July 20, 2012 10:53 AM: Ah, just read Kickass's comment above. Makes sense now.
Wendy July 20, 2012 10:57 AM: Strange. Eyewitness claims he was sitting in front row and the man sitting next to him answered his cellphone and walked toward the emergency exit in front. Next thing, the shooter comes in from where the guy went out.

I thought odd they said he burst through an emergency exit since they're usually locked. He either propped it open slightly or had some help.
VD July 20, 2012 11:00 AM: Eyewitness claims he was sitting in front row and the man sitting next to him answered his cellphone and walked toward the emergency exit in front.

The shooter's handler, it would appear.
CJ July 20, 2012 11:02 AM: But, but he acted alone! The police said so!
Stickwick July 20, 2012 11:04 AM: Who's actually going to carry? Young, high testosterone dudes.

Nope: 74% of CHL permit holders in the U.S. are over the age of 35, and almost 40% are over the age of 50.

Young, high testosterone dudes are disproportionately responsible for violent crime. Which is probably why older men carry.
Koanic July 20, 2012 11:21 AM: What I didn't write: "Who is carrying?"
robwbright July 20, 2012 11:22 AM: "It's not like Grandma's gonna pack unless crime reaches epidemic proportions."

You're misunderestimating grandmas. I know several grandmas who either are carrying a lot or will be carrying a lot as soon as they finish the conceal carry license process.

Most of my time is spent in three places - home, courthouses and outdoors. No need to conceal a gun at home and I can carry open outdoors in both states here... and we haven't had a lot of shootings on city soccer fields and motocross tracks.

But if I carry into a courthouse - even as an officer of the court - I will be arrested. Rather ironic, isn't it? I seem to recall "shall not be infringed" somewhere in the constitution.
DT July 20, 2012 11:27 AM: One solution proposed by GT officials is to start a public campaign, letting the local public know that GT indeed is a gun free zone campus and violators will be prosecuted to the fullest extent.

That should solve everything.

I get a sense of hopelessness every time I think about the fact that not only are there people that stupid in the world, but there are people that stupid in positions of power.
Stilicho July 20, 2012 11:28 AM: The shooter's handler, it would appear.

Indeed. That is odd. Unless, of course, one asks the question: what did Eric Holder know and when did he know it?

I would expect those eyewitnesses to be changing their stories shortly.
DT July 20, 2012 11:32 AM: It's not worth carrying outside of the house if it means going to prison for life because I illegally stopped a mass-murder in progress.

Better to be carried by 6 than tried by 12 huh?

Honestly? Better to be carried by 6 than raped daily by who knows how many sick animals for the rest of your life. The U.S. has one of the worst and most violent prison systems in the history of man. Ironic considering any time the U.S. government wants "regime change" in a foreign land it points to bad prisons and tortured prisoners as one of the reasons.

Now if you think you have the resources to post bail and skip the country, by all means, carry.
Cogitans Iuvenis July 20, 2012 11:34 AM: I am all for carrying Vox, I carry myself actually. But in this instance I do not think for a second that carrying would have resulted in a different outcome. The monster, and that is what he is, came prepared with gas masks, teargas, and a bullet proof vest. That being said, I'd still rather have a gun than not. And this also shows that no matter how many laws, how many background checks, and edicts issued by the powers that be. If a person wants to do harm, and has the werewithall to do harm, will do harm.
Holla July 20, 2012 11:39 AM: The Denver airport may be infested with demonic freemasonic art and have secret concentration camps built beneath it, but you are allowed to smoke there, which basically evens out the evil for me.
a good ROI July 20, 2012 11:43 AM: "All in all, it's usually not worth it to carry unless you really suspect you may need it, in which case you'd strongly consider altering your plans so that you're going out and taking care of your business at a safer time and place."

All in all, it's usually not worth it to pay for car or home insurance unless you suspect you may need it... yeah, that sounds as stupid as what you wrote above.
Poli_Mis July 20, 2012 11:48 AM: @Kickass

I have read much of what VC has posted on his site and was wondering about your warning.
Is it the way he ties it all together? Just wondering what you meant is all.
PM July 20, 2012 11:58 AM: The art is anti-white porn. Put it that way. They tell us what they will do before they do it. There it is.
A July 20, 2012 12:01 PM: Guess those baby boomers are getting wise and applying for CC permits now to defend themselves against all those out of work young punks they helped create.
IM2L844 July 20, 2012 12:06 PM: What we need is Obamacarry to make it compulsory for every qualified person to purchase and carry an American made handgun. As long as they just fined people who failed to comply, the SCOTUS wouldn't have a problem with it.

Just think of all the economic advantages.
Spacebunny July 20, 2012 12:07 PM: but you are allowed to smoke there, which basically evens out the evil for me.

Well played, sir. I am not a smoker, but I abhor the smoking bans.
Noah B. July 20, 2012 12:11 PM: A situation in which a shooter is armored and has a rifle is a nightmare scenario for someone defending themselves with a pistol. Still, you stand a much better chance being armed than not.

Regarding the typical age of CCW permit holders, I'd say Spacebunny is right. I just took my third renewal course a couple of weeks ago, and in my mid-30's I was probably the fifth or sixth youngest out of the class of around 60 people. Most people there were between 40 and 65. Also, I know many older people who carry without a license, though not necessarily on their immediate person. I suspect this is fairly common here.
Koanic July 20, 2012 12:12 PM: I'm not misunderestimating anything. It's young men who would rather weapon up than feel threatened. The elderly have been easy prey for years, and haven't done a thing about it.

It's not hard. Just look at who was carrying arms in pre gun banning eras.

I could be wrong, but observations on the demographics of the .2% currently possessing CCW licenses are hardly conclusive evidence.
doon xib July 20, 2012 12:17 PM: The shooter is a PhD student in neuroscience at the U of Colorado.

Pic: http://i.imgur.com/90h9N.jpg

He's got that Loughner stare.
Stickwick July 20, 2012 12:19 PM: I could be wrong, but observations on the demographics of the .2% currently possessing CCW licenses are hardly conclusive evidence.

So, what evidence are you using to support your notion that currently young men are more likely to carry?
Clay July 20, 2012 12:21 PM: Spacebunny July 20, 2012 12:07 PM

Well played, sir. I am not a smoker, but I abhor the smoking bans.

Farting in elevators, however, should be considered felonious assault.
Paul Sacramento July 20, 2012 12:31 PM: Unless one is armed AND trained, being armed may actually do more harm than good.
Spacebunny July 20, 2012 12:33 PM: I'm not misunderestimating anything. It's young men who would rather weapon up than feel threatened. The elderly have been easy prey for years, and haven't done a thing about it.

It's not hard. Just look at who was carrying arms in pre gun banning eras.

Naked assertion. Back up your assertion that a) young men would rather weapon up than feel threatened and b) who was carrying arms pre banning eras
Koanic July 20, 2012 12:45 PM: b is not an assertion, it is an indication of where to look, agnostic as to the result.

a: young men have higher testosterone, and will respond when threatened aggressively.

Evidence:
"For example, an estimated 10% of male high school students have carried a gun in the previous 30 days."

.2% is not a number that will make a difference in the average theater. 10% certainly is.
Koanic July 20, 2012 12:48 PM: "what evidence are you using to support your notion that currently young men are more likely to carry?"

Sweet Cthulhu that is not what I wrote.
James Dixon July 20, 2012 12:50 PM: And of course ABC has already tried (and failed) to link the shooting to the Tea Party: http://mrctv.org/videos/brian-ross-admits-he-was-wrong-says-shooting-suspect-not-connected-tea-party
ajw308 July 20, 2012 12:52 PM: Shild, nowdays, it's easier to carry, the guns are smaller and the holsters are more comfortable and concealable. Not to mention that the laws are making it easier to carry concealed (and open) in many states.

Add to that the threat of flash mobs I'm surprised that there wasn't someone in the theater wasn't carrying.

Cali City Paul, are you really throwing away data and relying on an unlikely potential in your argument? May do more harm? More harm as opposed to what? The people I know who shoot are accurate, would have been thinking safety as well as being aware of what was behind the target before they shot. Heck, a significant number of them have had training through local facilities or at national organizations.

Do you realize that through your irrational fear of guns, you are fostering the vulnerability of the public to murderous lone gunmen?
jerry July 20, 2012 12:53 PM: This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
FrankBrady July 20, 2012 12:59 PM: "Who's actually going to carry? Young, high testosterone dudes."

Me. I carry everywhere and have for 50 years. Here's why: I have always believed that any adult male with the skill and strength to do so has a moral responsibility to be able and willing to defend himself, his family, and other innocents from the hordes of evil goblins that have infected our culture.

It's just that simple.
jay c July 20, 2012 1:02 PM: Who's actually going to carry? Young, high testosterone dudes.

It's not like Grandma's gonna pack unless crime reaches epidemic proportions.

I was the youngest person at my concealed carry class this spring. I'm 41. There were more women than men in the class. My wife and a female friend are scheduled to go to a CC class in a couple of weeks.
Gen. Kong July 20, 2012 1:04 PM: E. Perline: Muslim?

Nope. White boy. Apparently an OWS type from what I've been seeing elsewhere on the net. More details to follow no doubt.
ajw308 July 20, 2012 1:04 PM: Koanic, is estimated a fancy word for guess? where I grew up, I'd estimate that during deer season, at least 60% of the male high school students had carried a gun in the previous 30 days.

Before posting this response, I went and looked at your link. The 10% carry rate is a hypothetical case being used to fuel antigun propaganda because the real data wont support the authors idealogy.
jay c July 20, 2012 1:06 PM: I like that and I feel safer because of it. I have been reading up and studying the laws in my state and trying to decide whether I will join the CC folk. The biggest obstacle is the number of places around here that prohibit weapons.

Unless I was mis-taught, in Texas "no guns" signs do not apply to CHL carriers unless they are worded and located in a very particular manner.
ajw308 July 20, 2012 1:07 PM: Noah, One word for you: Mozambique Drill. Two to the center of mass, one to the head. Practice it.
Stickwick July 20, 2012 1:08 PM: "what evidence are you using to support your notion that currently young men are more likely to carry?"

Sweet Cthulhu that is not what I wrote.

Who's actually going to carry? Young, high testosterone dudes.

It's not like Grandma's gonna pack unless crime reaches epidemic proportions.

You didn't say it so many words, but you certainly implied it, and you went on to defend the point:

.2% is not a number that will make a difference in the average theater. 10% certainly is.

What is this if not an assertion that young men are more likely to carry?
JohnG July 20, 2012 1:08 PM: I'd tend to agree that the CCW crowd tend to be older - they were when I did my CCW class. Same with the shooting clinics with the local gun club, people generally in their 30's and 40's.

The crowd at a midnight showing of Batman would seem to be mostly teeny-boppers, most of whom would have been too young to have a CCW permit anyway. I go to the movies here and there (if there's a good one, which seems to be less and less), but midnight is past my bedtime!

Well, now at least I don't feel like a wierdo for packing in the theater...
conspiracist July 20, 2012 1:12 PM: Links to eyewitness reports about person leaving theater after taking a cell-phone call?
ajw308 July 20, 2012 1:12 PM: Wendy, I agree, the emergency exits are locked. That makes sense he had help opening it from the inside.
WaterBoy July 20, 2012 1:13 PM: Holla: "but you are allowed to smoke there, which basically evens out the evil for me."

A little misleading. Yes, there is (was?) a smoking lounge inside the terminal, so you don't have to go outside and return through security again. But it is far away from the gates...and there is a one (or two?) drink minimum...and the drinks are outrageously priced, of course. I quit smoking in 2000, so it's possible the lounge rules may have changed since then, but it's still not allowed any old place you choose.

Colorado has a statewide ban against smoking in public, extending to a 15' radius outside the front door of all facilities. This even applies to bars and casinos, once bastions of those who take their vices seriously.
Koanic July 20, 2012 1:16 PM: AJW, please back your naked assertion that the 10% figure is a "hypothetical case."

Stickwick, I think you'd be better off not trying to read me in context.
James Dixon July 20, 2012 1:18 PM: > ... where I grew up, I'd estimate that during deer season, at least 60% of the male high school students had carried a gun in the previous 30 days.

That matches where I grew up, and probably still does.
WaterBoy July 20, 2012 1:18 PM: Spacebunny: "That may be, but CO used to be an open carry state - no permit required"

It still is, with some restrictions on where one can go listed here.
Spacebunny July 20, 2012 1:26 PM: AJW, please back your naked assertion that the 10% figure is a "hypothetical case."

Sorry dear, but until you back up your naked assertions, you don't get to ask others to do the same.
ajw308 July 20, 2012 1:27 PM: Nope, no second man existed. It's merely a common emotional mechanism to help one deal with trauma. For example, John Doe #2 in the Murrah building bombing though many claimed to have seen him.

There's nothing more to see here. Turn in your guns, register for the Homeland Security Defense Force, inform on your neighbor who you think may have a gun, and move on.
Hermit July 20, 2012 1:28 PM: This happened in my hometown, only a couple miles from where I used to live. The location of the theater is, as Chris Rock would say: "A mall that white people used to go to." A bizarre location for something like this to happen...
WaterBoy July 20, 2012 1:29 PM: ajw308: "where I grew up, I'd estimate that during deer season, at least 60% of the male high school students had carried a gun in the previous 30 days."

...and stored their rifles in their lockers at school.

Those were the days....
Spacebunny July 20, 2012 1:30 PM: Sheesh, let's try that again, shall we?

Evidence:
"For example, an estimated 10% of male high school students have carried a gun in the previous 30 days."

Doesn't support your assertion that

It's young men who would rather weapon up than feel threatened

And as to

b is not an assertion, it is an indication of where to look, agnostic as to the result.

It absolutely is an assertion if an implicit one and yes, you will be required to back it up or retract it.
Koanic July 20, 2012 1:31 PM: SB, although you botched the copy paste, I can guess what you meant.

It's a prediction, so it can't be proved of course.

But it certainly supports. No other age/sex defined demographic has shown anywhere near that broad willingness to carry a weapon.
Stickwick July 20, 2012 1:31 PM: OK, Koanic, then help us out, because obviously I'm not the only person who is apparently mistaken about what you were trying to say. What point were you trying to make when you said "Who's actually going to carry? Young, high testosterone dudes."?
Spacebunny July 20, 2012 1:33 PM: It's a prediction,

Fighting withdrawal much? It wasn't a prediction, it was a statement. You do understand the difference, yes?
Koanic July 20, 2012 1:37 PM: You want me to retract an implicit assertion? I'd be happy to implicitly retract it.

It was followed by "I could be wrong," because I don't know what the result of such an investigation would be.
ajw308 July 20, 2012 1:37 PM: Go look at page 46. The author clearly states that the number is an estimate: "For example, an estimated 10% of male high school students have carried a gun in the previous 30 days."

Even the number, a perfect 10% makes it sound like a guess.
Koanic July 20, 2012 1:44 PM: "Who's actually going to carry?"

Who's actually going to carry in large numbers, regularly.

Yes, I understand the difference between a statement and a prediction. I also understand the different between present and future tense.

It's great that Ilk minded folk carry, but they are a very very small percentage of the population. I am talking about the growth demograhpic.
ajw308 July 20, 2012 1:44 PM: In my experience, young high testosterone dudes feel pretty tough. Put them with a few buds and they think they can take on the world with their bare hands.

It's us older wiser guys who carry.

At least in my experience.

Now, unless someone wants to to RACISS and start talking about inner city youts and their guns, but tying that into some of my earlier dialog, the only bangers who are still in high school are the ones dealing on the campus.

I know two guys who moved to the city and had to carry weapons for protection. They carried knives and one skipped 6th hour to vacate the school grounds safely.
Spacebunny July 20, 2012 1:45 PM: It was followed by "I could be wrong," because I don't know what the result of such an investigation would be.

Fair enough, I went back and reread your original comment and you are, of course, correct. However, that doesn't address your other assertion which you still haven't successfully addressed.
Koanic July 20, 2012 1:45 PM: AJW, an "estimate" is not a "hypothetical case."
ajw308 July 20, 2012 1:50 PM: Kaonic, my boss had jury duty last fall. 5 of the 12 jurors (not counting him) had mentioned that they were unhappy that they couldn't carry in the court house. I know I don't have a circle of acquianteces that reflect the population. The state I now live in doesn't reflect the nation either, but when I see things like that, I know that, at least amongst registered voters, that there are those who don't want to be sheep.
ajw308 July 20, 2012 1:51 PM: AJW, an "estimate" is not a "hypothetical case."
It is, almost 97% of the time, I'd estimate.
Koanic July 20, 2012 1:53 PM: I cannot fathom why this is controversial, but if you don't think testosterone and high school possession rates are sufficient grounds for a prediction, here's a South African bit:

"Gun ownership is mainly a male phenomenon, a means to demonstrate manhood, particularly among young men.4"
ajw308 July 20, 2012 2:00 PM: It looks like about 0.2% of the population in Colorado have concealed carry permits. It's probably slightly higher since that statistic is from 2004. The capacity of that theater is 300 people so the likelihood is that there was even one person in that theater with a concealed carry permit and a weapon is doubtful.

Running the math, we have a 99.8% chance that each person is unarmed. Raise that to the 300th power and you get a ~55% chance that the audience was unarmed. Now take into account that there are more CCW permits than in 2004 and I'd guess that there was at least 1 concealed weapon in the theater. I may be wrong, but it's pretty even odds that there was a gun there.
FP July 20, 2012 2:03 PM: Hah, ABC stepped in it already with the teaparty hit. The shooter apparently was a phd candidate in neuroscience and dropped out last month.
Spacebunny July 20, 2012 2:08 PM: but if you don't think testosterone and high school possession rates are sufficient grounds for a prediction,

Because that part was not part of your prediction and even if it was -no, it's not sufficient grounds for a prediction of the sort you are making because as others have stated and as I myself have witnesses, far more than 10% (closer to 80% I would say) of high school males were in possession of firearms at school in previous generations - heck, some even brought them in for show and tell.
PM July 20, 2012 2:11 PM: Gen Ys don't have a sense of duty to carry because boomers never bothered exposing them to the Gun range. That crucial development of in-group/out-group thinking was subsequently demolished by recent shifts in public schooling and its propagation of sham feel-good nation-of-immigrants democracy. A lot has changed since the time when a rifle was feared behind every blade of grass. Apart from the "I joined the military to fight for freedom" crowd, young people don't give a shit about deterring the wolves. That's obamas job.
Stickwick July 20, 2012 2:12 PM: Koanic, it's not controversial that a particular demographic carries guns at a disproportionately high rate. The key question is why. If they are engaged in high-risk activity (e.g. the drug trade), are de facto captive in high-risk areas (as many high schools are), or just want to feel like badasses, then it makes sense that they would "weapon up" at a higher rate than the general population. I'll wager most of the high school 10% who carry live in high-crime areas or are engaged in the drug trade. In that case, they're just doing what you said granny would do, arming up when the crime reaches epidemic levels.
Stilicho July 20, 2012 2:15 PM: Here is a news story that talks about the handler.

The pertinent portion is this: Corbin Dates and Jennifer Seeger were sitting in the second row of the theater when Dates saw someone in the front row answer a phone call during the opening credits and walk to the emergency door in the front of the theater.

Less than an hour later a man, dressed in black and wearing a gas mask and what looked like body armor, entered through the same emergency exit. He lobbed two canisters and almost instantly the theater filled with smoke.
Koanic July 20, 2012 2:16 PM: So? What matters is ratio of high schooler possession to older possession. The 10% figure is impressive because it's higher than the general population now.

I don't understand the THAT part.

Anyway hopefully the SA bit is enough.
Koanic July 20, 2012 2:20 PM: It was certainly controversial 5 minutes ago when everyone was lionizing the elderly.

Of course they're in a threatening environment. Plenty are. The difference is that young men disproportionately weapon up in response. And now the general pool of young men have reason to feel threatened.
Josh July 20, 2012 2:34 PM: The difference is that young men disproportionately weapon up in response.

You haven't proved that. Your south african source specifically said that young men weapon up to demonstrate manhood, not as a response to threats.
Koanic July 20, 2012 2:39 PM: Apologies Josh. Reports allegedly indicate that the sky is blue.
lol July 20, 2012 2:43 PM: BRING ON THE CIVIL WAR!
Noah B. July 20, 2012 2:44 PM: "Running the math, we have a 99.8% chance that each person is unarmed. Raise that to the 300th power and you get a ~55% chance that the audience was unarmed. Now take into account that there are more CCW permits than in 2004 and I'd guess that there was at least 1 concealed weapon in the theater. I may be wrong, but it's pretty even odds that there was a gun there."

AJC, I believe you're making a critical error in assuming that every CCW permit holder would be armed. Unfortunately, even among the people I know with CCW permits, most of them do not carry consistently. One must also consider conditional probabilities of the situation, since the demographics that tend to have CCW permits do not attend movies like Batman in the greatest numbers. Overall, it was probably a fairly young audience.
Anonymous July 20, 2012 2:45 PM: How come I just knew the demographic of this guy?

FA
Noah B. July 20, 2012 2:45 PM: Sorry, that was to AJW308...
Stickwick July 20, 2012 2:48 PM: Of course they're in a threatening environment. Plenty are. The difference is that young men disproportionately weapon up in response.

That may or may not be true, but you haven't shown it. You'd need to point to a different male demographic that's similarly engaged in high-risk criminal activity or forced into a high-violence situation on a daily basis and doesn't weapon up at the same rate in response.

And now the general pool of young men have reason to feel threatened.

Whereas they didn't before? What's changed?

I'd still like to know the point of your statement above about young, high-testosterone men being the ones who will actually carry.
Noah B. July 20, 2012 2:51 PM: There's also an excellent chance that the shooter was on, or withdrawing from, one or more antidepressants. The first common thread that these mass shootings have are guns -- obviously, every single one of them involves a gun. I believe I've read that antidepressant use by the shooter has something like a 95% correlation with these shootings, but the media never talks about that.
scoobius dubious July 20, 2012 3:05 PM: "The art is anti-white porn. Put it that way. They tell us what they will do before they do it. There it is."

This.

By the way, collective safety tip... (NB take this advice with caution, because this can possibly put you in personal danger if you aren't careful about it, but collectively it can help save lives. Criticism or contra-indications from better-informed security professionals very much welcome of course.)

If this ever happens where you are, i.e. if you are present when some armed dipshit randomly opens fire in an enclosed space the way that this evil asshole did, get behind some cover and then, in a loud voice, exhort everyone in the room to throw their keys at him, all at once, hard. Count it down, on 3. Keys, shoes, anything hard... throw it all at the guy, throw it simultaneously, throw it hard, disorient him, and then rush him as a group as soon as your volley flies.

Interested to see if security professionals come by here and say I'm wrong. If they do, of course, believe them and not me.
Cliftonb July 20, 2012 3:12 PM: The was a horrific tragedy, but I don't see how conceal carry would have helped any considering the tear gas and heavily armed and armored gunman. Then again, I'm not much for guns so it could just be my bias.
Giraffe July 20, 2012 3:12 PM: in a loud voice, exhort everyone in the room to throw their keys at him, all at once, hard. Count it down, on 3. Keys, shoes, anything hard... throw it all at the guy, throw it simultaneously, throw it hard, disorient him, and then rush him as a group as soon as your volley flies.

That would be the the best option under the circumstances. But it won't work. Once the shooting starts, nobody will hear you, and nobody will listen to you. Singling yourself out as one trying to take charge will simply swing the muzzle of his gun in your direction.
Giraffe July 20, 2012 3:13 PM: Wow, could have been much worse:

the gunman had four weapons: two 40-caliber Glock handguns, a Remington 870 single-barrel shotgun and a Smith & Wesson AR-15 assault-style rifle. Three of the weapons were found in the suspect's white Hyundai parked at the back entrance to the theater; one of the handguns was found in the theater.
Koanic July 20, 2012 3:18 PM: Stickwick, I don't think you have a brother?

I mentioned awhile back that Neanderthal population composition was the historical ingredient for civilizational greatness; here's evidence from Greece.

The model certainly explains the general North-South and West-East European dynamic.
PM July 20, 2012 3:19 PM: If I was jennifer seeger, I would probably have requested anonymity on that one to avoid a possible conflict of interest. But maybe they'll just pay her off to change her story.
Noah B. July 20, 2012 3:23 PM: Giraffe is right. Under those circumstances, trying to organize people won't do you much good. Your best bet, by far, is to shoot the gunman.

Even someone with a .38 revolver would have stood a decent chance of saving several lives. It is trivial for any woman who carries a purse to carry a gun (and it will give you an excuse to buy a new purse), and it's only slightly more inconvenient for a man. If you're a responsible person who cares about your own safety and the safety of other innocent people around you, there's just no good reason not to carry.
Stickwick July 20, 2012 3:29 PM: Koanic, I do have a brother. Why do you ask? Incidentally, we're Macedonian on our father's side.

Any chance you're going to enlighten me as to your original point above?
Spacebunny July 20, 2012 3:31 PM: Koanic- stop evading already, it's getting tiresome.
Gx1080 July 20, 2012 3:40 PM: Is just an impression of mine, but the pro-gun control side seems to act like a totalitaran state was sexually arousing or something.

"Uh, your stupid guns can't beat the sexy SWAT Ubermenchs".

Got to love their "tolerance". There's space for everybody under Big Brother's boot!
III July 20, 2012 3:41 PM: ...someone in the front row answer a phone call during the opening credits and walk to the emergency door in the front of the theater.

Less than an hour later a man, dressed in black and wearing a gas mask and what looked like body armor, entered through the same emergency exit...

Sound familiar? Jared Lee Loughner was said to have a handler also.
ajw308 July 20, 2012 3:46 PM: Koanic, am I the only one that sees race as a factor here?

"Gun ownership is mainly a male phenomenon, a means to demonstrate manhood, particularly among young men.4"
Short of my mom, I can't think of one woman I know who doesn't own at least 1 gun. There's a few who I don't know well enough to know whether they do or don't, but many women I know shoot and hunt. Actually there's a second woman I know of who doesn't own a gun, but that's because she gave her brother her deer rifle.

Testosterone's not the problem. Gun ownership's not the problem. To solve the problem, first it needs to be properly identified
ajw308 July 20, 2012 3:55 PM: Noah, I've been to midnight showings. Not to many young kids there.

What I wanted to show was how what seems like a tiny infinitesimal number like 0.2% is really significant when you look at a group of 300+ people. When I go to the movies, I assume that there's a gun, or two, in the theater.
Josh July 20, 2012 4:02 PM: So...the demographic composition of ancient greece proves that younger males are more likely to carry handguns?
III July 20, 2012 4:02 PM: "...first it needs to be properly identified."

Better living through chemicals.
Stilicho July 20, 2012 4:23 PM: It will be interesting to see if Obama is dumb enough to try running on gun control after this.

Only in the sense of how he tries to finesse his message, but make no mistake, he is that dumb. To be fair, it may not be his socialist brain driving his actions, but rather his statist heart. At any rate, I predict a campaign platform along the lines of "reasonable restrictions" that he will not define until it is too late to stop him. You know, "Hope and Change" for the gun control crowd and their fellow travelers.
Noah B. July 20, 2012 4:27 PM: "What I wanted to show was how what seems like a tiny infinitesimal number like 0.2% is really significant when you look at a group of 300+ people. When I go to the movies, I assume that there's a gun, or two, in the theater."

It would be interesting to know for sure, but good chance you're right, since there are also quite a few people who carry but don't have a license.
Noah B. July 20, 2012 4:31 PM: Still, the odds are high that there were one or more CCW permit holders there who left their gun in their car, thinking they were relatively safe in the movie theater.
scoobius dubious July 20, 2012 4:35 PM: "Giraffe is right. Under those circumstances, trying to organize people won't do you much good. Your best bet, by far, is to shoot the gunman."

Agree with you that shooting the gunman is best, I'm thinking of the many situations where nobody is armed. Giraffe makes a very good point. What about the efficacy of simply throwing your own keys at the guy and then taking cover in another location. Most of the time these guys have handguns and it's pretty hard for an amateur to hit a moving target from a distance with a handgun. Throwing your keys (maybe with a "Hey, asshole!") and shifting to new cover might give other people the same idea without calling attention to yourself. Suppose it depends on things like crowd density and other matters of specific terrain.

I understand it's dangerous, and of course everybody has to make their own decisions in these sorts of situations. But personally I think there are times when maybe your own safety shouldn't (or can't) be the top priority.

Granted there are a lot of outside factors, but consider that in the wake of the United 91 9/11 incident, airline hijackings of that nature are far less likely to occur any more (AQ has shifted its focus to concealed/smuggled bombs) because it's clear the public will no longer passively tolerate a hijacking. If, for once (or twice) one of these lone-gunman assholes was rushed by a savage angry crowd and torn limb from limb, with as much ignominy as possible, it might discourage future assailants by robbing them of their imagined glory. All of a sudden they're just another dickwad lying prone on the ground with their teeth stomped in and both shoulders dislocated. Make a hell of a mug shot.

"Jared Lee Loughner was said to have a handler also."

It _is_ interesting that this happens just as Fast & Furious is blowing up in that c#cks*cker Holder's face...
OK July 20, 2012 4:44 PM: So I looked it up and concealed carry is generally not realistically attainable for average citizens in Italy. According to Wikepedia you must have a special need such as a jewelry salesman.

You can own firearms at home though.
Giraffe July 20, 2012 4:51 PM: Scoob,

Depending on conditions, you can play dead. Wait for him to walk past and get him from behind. Or make your exit.

Not going to work in a lit classroom, but in a dark theater with seats to hide behind it might.
Spacebunny July 20, 2012 4:52 PM: Koanic, am I the only one that sees race as a factor here?

"Gun ownership is mainly a male phenomenon, a means to demonstrate manhood, particularly among young men.4"

Not just race, but culture, all the grownups are talking about the US and who is carrying here and in a lame attempt to prove his assertion he puts up a stat from South Africa.
FrankBrady July 20, 2012 4:55 PM: The world's population includes many murderous goblins. That so many American males are affronted by any suggestion that they should be trained and equipped to defend their loved ones and themselves tell us everything we need to know about this rapidly dying "culture."
Noah B. July 20, 2012 5:07 PM: "What about the efficacy of simply throwing your own keys at the guy and then taking cover in another location."

Realistically, I just don't see that having a chance in hell of working. Considering that the guy was wearing a gas mask and body armor and shooting people by the time anyone realized what was happening -- and by then I'm sure he also had one hell of an adrenaline rush -- it's doubtful that he would even realize that someone was throwing keys at him. Gas masks, especially the cheaper and more readily available civilian ones, narrow down and limit your vision a lot. I believe the instinct to blink and shield your face would be greatly diminished. At best, the impact of a set of keys would have been a minor nuisance.
scoobius dubious July 20, 2012 6:00 PM: "Realistically, I just don't see that having a chance in hell of working."

I get your point. I'm thinking more about the generalized situation, not this particular one, which is already over with. Typically the guy has a handgun(s) and unless he's ex-military or something, it's likely he isn't the greatest shot. A lot of times these things seem to happen in a classroom setting, and books, laptops, smart phones etc. are all close to hand, and can all be hurled with intent to do damage. If you're outside, say on a campus, then safest thing is to run. But if you're a sitting duck in an enclosed space, why not fight back and get others to join you.

My larger purpose is to get people to reconsider the way they think about these matters. The French have a great saying for times of danger: "Gardez votre sang-froid." In bland English we'd say "keep cool" or "stay calm," but what it literally means is "remain cold-blooded."

One thinks of that classroom massacre in Canada a number of years ago where the gunman only wanted to kill women, so he ordered all the men out of the classroom and they meekly complied. A little more cold-bloodedness was required of the men, and they failed the test.
Cat McClusky July 20, 2012 6:01 PM: Telling people to stop where they are and to throw keys, shoes,or whatever at the shooter sounds feasible in theory, however in the midst of loud gunfire, screaming, smoke, and chaos, all individuals are in severe panic mode. No one individual is going to risk drawing attention to him/her self by pelting the gunner with keys.

Kinda like instructing everybody to calmly leave the narrow exit in orderly single file while the building is rapidly burning down around them.
Daniel July 20, 2012 6:15 PM: I may be completely on Mars here, but I read Koanic's thought as: "Old people aren't going to be at a midnight showing of Batman: a high-count shooting in that population of vigilante fans might be enough to wake up the echoes of the young, thereby persuading young men to carry, possibly in significant enough numbers to turn the tide on the acceptability of a carrying public."

What needs statistics there, with or without testosterone?

After all, if 2% carry, but the vast majority of them are older than this demographic, then the likelihood was that there was not a defensive gun in the theater.

So, now that going to midnight movie premieres has moved from "safe" to "dangerous" it is not unreasonable to expect that there will be an uptick in carriers.

On the other hand, Virginia Tech still doesn't "allow" weapons on campus, and young men continue to attend....
Cliftonb July 20, 2012 6:15 PM: That so many American males are affronted by any suggestion that they should be trained and equipped to defend their loved ones and themselves tell us everything we need to know about this rapidly dying 'culture.'"

Really? How does that work?

It's not an affront to me, but I personally don't believe in carrying or using guns to shoot people. And I think you're a bit late to the party - the overall disregard for human life and wholesale abandonment of the rule of law sealed this country's fate years ago.
Noah B. July 20, 2012 6:16 PM: "But if you're a sitting duck in an enclosed space, why not fight back and get others to join you."

My point is, why be a sitting duck in the first place?

"My larger purpose is to get people to reconsider the way they think about these matters."

Mine too. The idea of having a significant effect on a shooter by throwing your keys or wallet at them -- body armor and gas mask or not -- is just fantasyland stuff.
scoobius dubious July 20, 2012 6:16 PM: "leave the narrow exit in orderly single file while the building is rapidly burning down around them."

But ironically, that is the safest thing to do! But I know, good luck getting someone to listen when they're in a panic. And yet, don't you think are people who have a natural aura of command who can get people to listen? Not in every situation, but they do exist, I've seen it happen in emergency situations before.
Daniel July 20, 2012 6:23 PM: But if you're a sitting duck in an enclosed space, why not fight back and get others to join you.

Because game theory doesn't work that way. Flip it around. If you are in a closed space with three hundred other targets, and one shooter with limited ammunition, darkness and inaccurate shots, why would you make yourself the black swan for a chance to throw a non-lethal object?

Mass response doesn't flow through the individual. The individual flows through mass response.

This is the same reason why, if one or two were armed in self-defense in the theater, they were also likely self-interested enough to navigate as far away as possible from the shooter. The odds of that less than 2% being in the "self-defense" path than in the "safe flight" path is even lower than whatever that tiny percentage is.

Even if I'm armed in the dark, my first move is going to be a defensive retreat. There's no way I would have even thought of trying to hit a black target in a smoke-filled darkened theater unless I was within point blank and had no safe retreat.
Bane Again (or returns, or whatever, sorta like the movie) July 20, 2012 6:36 PM: An addendum to the previous...

Video interview with Dr. Vieira, at about the same period with a different interviewing entity.

Edwin Vieira Interview with James Turk

Basic gist. "Power of the purse, does not work without equal power of the sword."

All the more reason (in fact the requirement) for the citizenry to be properly armed. (i.e. the Swiss model)
Cat McClusky July 20, 2012 6:54 PM: A 12oz can of Rust-Oleum and a Bic lighter would have given that gunman a nice healthy glow.
Kickass July 20, 2012 7:09 PM: Well, if the shoe fits..
Scott July 20, 2012 7:09 PM: Assuming .2% carry and 300 to a theater then .998^300=54.8%. So there's a 54.8% no one has a gun unless my math is wrong.
Kickass July 20, 2012 7:15 PM: Your last two sentences are clear indications of a massive brain fart or indoctrination.......so both.
Kickass July 20, 2012 7:20 PM: Heroes are rare, get it? Having a brain, why do you assume anyone would join in and help you? To survive we just have to outrun you.
Kickass July 20, 2012 7:22 PM: Whats it to you?
Kickass July 20, 2012 7:25 PM: Or.....the public at large could be visibly armed at all times and less people would start shit. Quite clearly you have no training or experience in defending yourself or others, get some. Keys wont do it.