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Thursday, August 16, 2012

A Christian case against Game

1. Game isn’t what you think it is.

2. Game means more than you think it does.

3. Christians don’t need Game.


My short response: 1) Game certainly isn't what Cane thinks it is. 2) It most certainly does. 3) Yeah, they do.

A more substantive response is at Alpha Game.

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75 Comments:

Anonymous paradox August 16, 2012 2:10 PM  

Andy Nowicki has a hilarious approach to Game in his current column.

Blogger tz August 16, 2012 2:19 PM  

What I've seen avoided at the outset is to properly and fully define terms. Cypher, Cain, and Vox don't really try to nail down this first point and it is nearly impossible to have a discussion without properly defining terms, so "Game" tends to mean whatever whomever at the moment says it is, and no more or no less, yet there ought to be expansive and constricting terms for subsets or the more general point. With that observation, I agree with Cypher and Vox. So to plunge into the abyss, here are my thoughts:

Although we have reason which can direct a free will, our fallen nature is such that things can be made easier or harder. From the "curse" in Genesis 3 to Paul's description of marriage in Ephesians, Man is to be the head. If you try to turn marriage into an equal partnership, it will take great effort on both the wife and husband's parts to override the natural order. I think it was Augustine who said Grace builds upon nature. It in some ways also has to fight it, but it is foolish to ask for more problems.

This morning the author of a book, "If Aristotle had an iPod" (about raising children) was interviewed, and it talks about natural law and that Aristotle knew human nature. The "dog whisperer" can go into a house where the dogs run amok (and aren't happy) and amazingly regain control in a few SECONDS. But he understands the nature of dogs. I suppose this same knowledge could allow the dog-whisper to turn a pack of chihuahuas into land piranhas that will attack and strip the flesh off any bystander. Knowledge is neither wisdom nor goodness. Roissy understands "Game", but the writings generally point toward making sin easier. But if the same understanding could make righteousness easier?

"Game" in a critical sense is about pressing Women's internal mental-emotional buttons. And both the off and on buttons. A Christian woman then can continually hit "Override", but that can become tedious and even annoying. Worse for the man who loves his wife but through his ignorance keeps turning the thermostat down and wonders why things are so cold.

Someone should explain why "50 shades of gray" is popular among Christian women even though it is pornographic - I've not read it but just from the few and short descriptions it is clear the Author understands "Game". If for that reason alone - the threats, to understand the "manipulation", Christians need to understand. And to have happy marriages when society doesn't align, like the breadwinner and the housewife - how many from the 1930s to the 1960s parents were really unhappy, or did they stay married until the death of one spouse?

Blogger Vox August 16, 2012 2:30 PM  

What I've seen avoided at the outset is to properly and fully define terms. Cypher, Cain, and Vox don't really try to nail down this first point and it is nearly impossible to have a discussion without properly defining terms, so "Game" tends to mean whatever whomever at the moment says it is, and no more or no less, yet there ought to be expansive and constricting terms for subsets or the more general point.

That is not true. I have repeatedly provided the same definition of Game, the same one I repeat in this Alpha Game post. That others choose not to accept it is neither here nor there, the definition has been provided.

Anonymous Lysander Spooner August 16, 2012 2:31 PM  

Christians and Deists need to avoid State Sanctioned Marriage.

Secularists, well, carry on, you're probably already in your own hell;)

Game, is really simple, shut up and make me a sandwich.

The difficulty in male/female relations is the insertion of the Third and Violent Party, known as the State.

Anonymous Daniel August 16, 2012 2:49 PM  

Game = Excel. You take the data, you dump it in. You replicate behaviors to get optimal results. Optimal is defined by the user, not the analytical tool.

Not coincidentally, it is easy to set up a four column matrix in Excel that analyzes couples and individuals in the socio-sexual hierarchy based on three simple variables (her physical rank, her history, his rank - either based on his history or qualitative selection.) This can be used for a lot of things: to simply explain to someone why she's just not into him (or vice versa), or how the heck a guy like that got a girl like her or to measure relationship stability or predict longevity. It is simple, but quite predictive, if you can get an accurate number on history.

Anonymous Jim August 16, 2012 3:02 PM  

After learning about Game, I do realize the need for Game in order to find a wife. As a Christian, one does find many Biblical parallels of alpha males. Certainly, a Christian does need to simulate such leadership skills to succeed in the Christian community and especially as a husband and father. In many cases, as an active Church member, I was asked to lead if no other reason that I was there and seemed to fit the job description.

I found it quite interesting that many women are attracted to Church leaders like Pastors, but it is also true that there are 2 messages that one should lead, while the other one is to meet a woman's needs in subservient way. Sometimes the subservient message wins out.

Blogger Joshua_D August 16, 2012 3:27 PM  

People that get the vapors over game are the same people who get the vapors over guns.

Anonymous Daniel August 16, 2012 3:30 PM  

One last thing on the Excel matrix. I've had more than one student use it to purposely ID women who were more likely to be LTR "delta" worthy to success. [Just to be clear: I don't teach game - relationships are just one of the things the students write about in class - we use the excel sheet for analytics] In other words, they didn't use Game to improve themselves (not directly) but to more realistically narrow their field of options - stop chasing out of their league. In so doing, they actually changed their approach and mindset, sort of like a kicker who builds confidence by kicking into a net and focusing on form, not outcome.

There was one student - low gamma w/ a ton of personality and even more cluelessness, who realized from the matrix that he was virtually "capped" at getting a chaste 4 and had been almost exclusively going after what he perceived to be chaste 9s and 10s! When he recalibrated to chaste 4s (chastity was obviously important to him), he ended up finding a 6 he was happy with, and he himself had found his way into deltahood over the course of a few months. I wish I had these people for more than a semester: the follow-up would be very interesting. Women in class hate to apply the matrix to themselves (and I certainly don't require it), but most of them love using it on the relationships of their friends.

Anonymous patrick kelly August 16, 2012 3:32 PM  

I was reading this earlier today.

IMAO Cane just doesn't like game, doesn't like the idea that other professing Christians are reading about it and successfully applying it to their lives and improving them.

His assertion that anyone not racking up multiple orgasmic PUA conquests is not using game is just anal silliness.

The comments are worth reading, but there are a lot of them.

Anonymous FUBAR Nation (Ben) August 16, 2012 3:45 PM  

This is how you get game:

1) Alwayz make them need and depend on you so you have power over them. (Power is control)

2) Make them understand that you don't need them they need you, they are replaceable. Never let them no if you need them deep down inside.

3) Never let no1 get away with sneakin anything cause once they feel they can get away they will alwayz scheme.

4) No matter how much you like or care for 1 or any of them, don't trust none of them. (Like Scarface, who do I trust?? Me that's who..)

5) Alwayz stay 2 step's ahead of the game you have them playin..

6) Don't let them no all your Plan's. But alwayz try 2 no there's.

7) Make sure you own there mind's, body's, and soul's. (N test it out every often 2 make sure.)

8) Keep your bi[?] on the low as possible when it come's 2 family and hater's. (cause you can't trust none of them)

9) Alwayz try 2 no whatz goin on..(Make them tell on each other)

10) Give respect when respect's due..(Follow these rules and you should b gucci.)

Source: http://gawker.com/5935102/thoughtful-pimp-explains-rules-2-da-game-of-hoez?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_twitter&utm_source=gawker_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

Anonymous Josh August 16, 2012 4:01 PM  

Pimp game, dawg.

Pimp game.

As butters said, "do you know what I am saying?"

Anonymous Cat McClusky August 16, 2012 4:23 PM  

There goes that pesky reality again, impinging on peoples' most heart-felt fantasies.

"Equality" in a marriage (or any relationship, for that matter) is neither natural or Biblically ordained. You either lead of follow.

Anonymous Athor Pel August 16, 2012 4:27 PM  

I was quite surprised that Cane wrote such an article and that Dalrock published it. It displays what looks like a noticeable lack of research or poor reading skills.

But bottom line, he just doesn't understand the subject.



Anonymous MendoScot August 16, 2012 5:47 PM  

OT: The Chronicle of Higher Education, mouthpiece of academe, actually does a balanced piece on the New Atheists.

Blogger Desert Cat August 16, 2012 7:26 PM  

I was really hoping Cane had a better case in mind when he offered to write that post. This topic is hugely important, and one I've been waiting to have hashed out in detail. It's too bad the dissenters haven't got more than that (so far).

Blogger Crude August 16, 2012 7:59 PM  

A real dumb question about Game, if anyone could answer it.

Is sex before marriage essential with regards to Game? Because I'm trying to figure out how a 'Christian' could use Game and not be sleeping with the girls he's going out with. In fact, if there's any article written about Game that tackles this question from a Christian perspective, I'd love to read it.

Anonymous Azimus August 16, 2012 8:01 PM  

Whether or not Game is unchristian, I don't know. But Game is a non-starter IMO... It seems toCBS illogical for a relationship strategy. Game puts getting the - we'll say "best" woman possible at the top of the ambition pyramid for a man, and teaches him to try and get that best woman by emulating Alpha behavior either in feint or in truth. Either way, he's doing something he isn't naturally interested in to get something he is interested in - the babe.

Say he gets the babe. The babe has joined him because of his Alpha-like characteristics, and presumably would leave when the delta within is inevitably revealed. Thus the man, presuming a desire to sustain the relationship, must live in a prison of his own making in order to keep the babe. In this way he exchanges peace of mind and companionship with plain women of like philosophy for a lifetime of frustration and companionship with an attractive woman he has little in common with and probably doesn't like any farther than what can be harvested from the bedroom - which has a diminishing rate of return anyway as the cracks in the alpha ruse become more apparent.

This leads me to conclude that Game can only be successfully applied for tactical objectives and not as a long-term strategy, or more explicitly to get women to sleep with you.

Blogger Crude August 16, 2012 8:07 PM  

Say he gets the babe. The babe has joined him because of his Alpha-like characteristics, and presumably would leave when the delta within is inevitably revealed.

My understanding is that part of game is that roles aren't set in stone. A gamma could become an alpha, and an alpha may become a beta or delta or whatever depending on what transpires.

Also, it doesn't seem correct that Game teaches someone to get 'the best woman possible at the top of the ambition pyramid'. It's not like what Game purports to teach applies to 9s and 10s, but won't work on 4s and 5s. Likewise you don't 'have' to like the physical 9 or 10 when she's got what for you is a 5 or 6 personality. Go for the 7. But Game will teach you how to get and keep the 7.

Or that's my take on it anyway, so far.

Blogger Joshua_D August 16, 2012 8:28 PM  

Azimus August 16, 2012 8:01 PM

Whether or not Game is unchristian, I don't know.

...

This leads me to conclude that Game can only be successfully applied for tactical objectives and not as a long-term strategy, or more explicitly to get women to sleep with you.


It almost as if y'all don't even read what Vox or the Ilk write about the issue. I mean, do you read the posts? Have read the previous posts Vox has written on game? Have you read what Roissy has written?

Anonymous lzozlzlzlzlzomglzozzl August 16, 2012 9:18 PM  

This post will probably awaken the GBFM kraken...

Anonymous NewAnubis August 16, 2012 10:05 PM  

Since they were little girls women have been told they can have/do/be/attain anything and everything they want(ed). Alone. "There's nothing a man can do that you cannot, sweetie." Women are doctors, lawyers, politicians, etc. and as luck would have it, there are no literal dinosaurs roaming around you need protection from.

Whereas big & strong once held the paradigm, money & power now rule the Kingdom of Aphrodesia. Food attainment once procured by traps, strength and cunning is now done through cash at a local grocery store. On a basic evolutionary level men have been relegated (pragmatically) to a 'want' rather than a 'need'.

When reality grips, and it surely always does, there's much gnashing and finger-pointing. "Men are unreliable boors" or "just another dependent" or "emotionally unavailable", ad nausea. Once that unhappy marriage or failure to be able to hang onto a good guy comes knocking typically around age 40, then doth the self-reflection begin. As a matter of great amusement, so then does gravity.

I do wonder how the men on this blog (by and large wiser than others I've frequented) advise their daughters on navigating the treacherous waters of love and dating?

Anonymous Tom O August 16, 2012 10:06 PM  

A much better definition of Game is this: the conscious attempt to observe and understand successful natural behaviors and attitudes in order to artificially simulate them.

This definition is given in the same language modern political writing is given in, and for the same reason too: Vox knows that he is largely writing a defense of the indefensible. The usage of abstract jargon and imprecision make it hard to paint a detailed picture.

However, let the reader notice that individuals such as L. Ron Hubbard, Frank Abagnale Jr, and Kevin Trudeau consciously observed and understood "successful natural behaviors and attitudes in order to artificially stimulate them," as Vox so gingerly puts it. This is because the "observation" and "artificial stimulation" is for getting the mark's confidence. So you can say that game is the art of confidence, and its practitioners are artists of confidence. Confidence artists, as it were.

You see, in the Gospel according to Vox, Christianity isn't about the "fruit of the spirit" or "love your enemies, for even sinners do good things expecting good" or any of that spiel, but fundamentally Christianity is a tool of social manipulation, not entirely unlike the social gospel.

If someone were to summarize Vox's response to Cane in under 140 characters, it would be a call to, "ignore the bullshit," as Dan Savage so vulgarly put it. Unfortunately, the saddest part of this blog post is that all of Vox's writing on confidence tricks was no doubt seen by him as an act of kindness. If that is his kindness, I'd hate to see his malice.

But no, Vox, confidence art is not a Christian virtue, and God is not giving you a moral imperative to manipulate the confidence of women so that you can defraud them of sex, time, or what-have-you. If you want to know what Christian virtues are, I'd recommend that you start with 1st Corinthians Chapter 14 (the entire chapter) and Galatians 5:22-23. Keep reading those pieces of scripture over and over until you can recite them verbatim. But do not label everyone who refuses fonication, deception, boasting, and arrogance as "churchians," since the gospel that you follow exists only in your head.

Anonymous Tom O August 16, 2012 10:09 PM  

* 1 Corinthians 13

Anonymous Noah B. August 16, 2012 10:28 PM  

"Is sex before marriage essential with regards to Game?"

Not the way the Muslims do it.

Anonymous Gx1080 August 16, 2012 10:29 PM  

"Christians don’t need Game."

Whoa, I can almost see the kind of acolyte of Churchianity that said that: A wimp that married one of the 30+ years old sluts that you find at your standard Megachurch and now she has his balls on her purse.

Anonymous Tom O August 16, 2012 10:34 PM  

Whoa, I can almost see the kind of acolyte of Churchianity that said that: A wimp that married one of the 30+ years old sluts that you find at your standard Megachurch and now she has his balls on her purse.

You forgot to call him Untermensch.

Not all of those, who appear human are in fact so. Woe to him who forgets it!

Anonymous Louis CGay August 16, 2012 10:46 PM  

A much better definition of Game is this: the conscious attempt to observe and understand successful natural behaviors and attitudes in order to artificially simulate them.

Christianity espouses understanding of successful natural behaviors and attitudes in order to avoid them.



Anonymous Azimus August 16, 2012 11:09 PM  

@ Joshua D

Sure. Game is about making yourself more attractive to fetch higher quality women by mimicking what have come to be called alphas. It's about getting the babe. Christian men are free to pursue women, babes included. What I'm saying is that Game, from where I sit, looks like it is better-suited to short-term tactics than a long-term strategy. Christian men, who by reason of their creed are probably exclusively pursuing a long-term strategy for companionship, would probably find Game would not provide them what they are looking for. Instead, it would either A) lock them into an alpha-pretender lifestyle that they don't want (or they would've been alphas to begin with), or B) they'd risk losing everything revealing that "hey! Turns out I'd rather be the guy sitting on the couch and watching football in my bathrobe and eating leftover KFC all day!"

Maybe some men can pull that off. I personally could not. Therefore my conclusion was that game was a better short term tactic, like for guys who are looking to sleep around.

As far as the not groveling at women's feet and not being spineless ball of mush lifting women up on some pedestal for simply drawing breath, I couldn't agree more. But that isn't really part of Game, is it? That's just having a little self respect.

I hope I clarified a little better.

Anonymous Redjack August 16, 2012 11:26 PM  

Why is it unChristian to lean how most women process things? If you are dating, and more so if you are MARRIED, you need to know some of what Game is.

Women are wired to respect and desire certain traits, and dispise others. Same as men. If you know those ques, that can help you. As with all things, this can be used for sinful purposes, but doesn't have to be.

It also helps to force the guys to take an honest look at what they are, and how they look to women. If you are a lower tier guy, you will not get a 10. I don't care what the after school special said, that isn't happening. Learning what you are, and that most women want to marry up, will help you out much more than conventional methods.

Blogger Desert Cat August 16, 2012 11:49 PM  

Crude August 16, 2012 7:59 PM
A real dumb question about Game, if anyone could answer it.
Is sex before marriage essential with regards to Game? Because I'm trying to figure out how a 'Christian' could use Game and not be sleeping with the girls he's going out with. In fact, if there's any article written about Game that tackles this question from a Christian perspective, I'd love to read it.


That's precisely the point of the conversation that is finally taking place in some depth at Dalrock's place.

To answer your question, no. But it depends upon what you mean by "game". And that is part of the conversation. As I see it, there is no reason to swallow PUA game whole, or even in part. I see no problem dissecting all that consists of "game" to it's essentials, and reassembling what makes sense into our own conception that serves the needs and imperatives of Christian men.

Anonymous Tom O August 16, 2012 11:55 PM  

Why is it unChristian to lean how most women process things? If you are dating, and more so if you are MARRIED, you need to know some of what Game is.

Learning is never un-Christian. As Professor Steven Dutch so humorously stated, "I challenge anyone to find one verse in the Bible were someone is praised for being incompetent."

Women are wired to respect and desire certain traits, and dispise others. Same as men. If you know those ques, that can help you. As with all things, this can be used for sinful purposes, but doesn't have to be.

Because a lot of those traits that women are attracted to are destructive. Just because somebody wants something doesn't mean that you must give it to them. To give an (extreme) example, if someone told you that they wanted to die, it would still be wrong to kill them, even though you're technically, "giving them what they wanted." Likewise, all of the traits that women find attractive, according to Game, are Dark Triad characteristics, which are obviously destructive.

Lastly, there's a slippery slope here: what happens when everyone successfully applies game? Do women get bored with dominant but law-abiding men, and go seek more extremes, like actual criminals?

It also helps to force the guys to take an honest look at what they are, and how they look to women. If you are a lower tier guy, you will not get a 10. I don't care what the after school special said, that isn't happening. Learning what you are, and that most women want to marry up, will help you out much more than conventional methods.

Game, in its logical and intellectual conclusion, requires an individual to adopt dark triad personality traits. If you fake these traits, that's dishonest, but if you successfully mold yourself into these traits, that's actually becoming evil.

Anonymous TheExpat August 17, 2012 12:32 AM  

@Tom-O

Roissy Maxim #98: "Marriage is no escape from the sexual market and the possibility that you may be outbid by a competitor with higher value."
Corollary: Neither is Christianity such an escape. The Hamster/Hypergamy just doesn't care.

The only real escape from the sexual market, defined loosely as all interaction between the sexes is celibacy and isolation (and even then complete escape may not be possible, given current social and legal structures). Thing is, most men would rather not live is hermits, and the aware ones also do not wish to be subjected to the whims of the hamster, with all the risks that entails. Men, including Christian men, ignore the red pill and its application (Game) at their own risk.

Anonymous III August 17, 2012 12:53 AM  

Woman are always trying to get you to eat the apple. Learn what the apple is and don't eat the apple.

Anonymous JP (real one) August 17, 2012 1:23 AM  

I'm still not sure what to make of Game, but one thing is for sure...none of us signed up for "No sex before marriage...and no sex after (a) the first year of marriage (b) you've finished having children (c) whatever arbitrary reason the wife wants to give."

But it's the reality for many.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2003/01/the-wifely-duty/302659/

I was surprised by the astuteness of one of the early commenters on the article, considering it's a MSM rag. He said:

"Wow, that is shockingly familiar. Somehow feminism, feminization of America, and holding on to old fashioned manners and gentlemanly acts has combined to create a constant lose lose for men.

So..... a wife has nearly no duty to a husband, but expects a man to be a provider to the point that ever whim of the wife should be fulfilled to the point that measure up to what is shown on Housewife or Kardashian reality shows. How can love exist in such a one-way environment, seems like an epidemic of selfishness on the part of women is crushing the idea of marraige."

Anonymous JP (real one) August 17, 2012 1:29 AM  

Oh, and there was the typical Christian Evanjellyfish "blame the men" reply to the article as well:

"I would cite two causes: 1) Unprecedented stress of trying to "achieve" in work, influence, bettering of ones position, survival... --fill in your demographic. And 2) The lack of real men in the world... Men who primarily put the needs of their wife and family above their own will generally be more attractive to their wives. Wives who understand the way men think, and what are the most basic core characteristics and needs of their Husbands will generally be overwhelmingly attractive to them...
I would point men and women to John Eldredge's "Wild at Heart" books. Even if you don't accept the premise that we were created by God, people must admit that Men and Women are definitely "wired different"...

Anonymous T14 August 17, 2012 2:20 AM  

That more than 60 words have been spilled about this issue boggles my mind. Don't act like a pussy and people won't treat you like a pussy. That is the whole of game. A quick addendum - if you have never set foot in a gym and make less than 75k* a year, you should act like a pussy. A you are. What's my word count at?
*adjust for city.

Anonymous VD August 17, 2012 2:43 AM  

Vox knows that he is largely writing a defense of the indefensible. The usage of abstract jargon and imprecision make it hard to paint a detailed picture.

No, he doesn't. You're a liar.

You see, in the Gospel according to Vox, Christianity isn't about the "fruit of the spirit" or "love your enemies, for even sinners do good things expecting good" or any of that spiel, but fundamentally Christianity is a tool of social manipulation, not entirely unlike the social gospel

No, it isn't. Again, you're a liar.

If you want to know what Christian virtues are, I'd recommend that you start with 1st Corinthians Chapter 14 (the entire chapter) and Galatians 5:22-23. Keep reading those pieces of scripture over and over until you can recite them verbatim. But do not label everyone who refuses fonication, deception, boasting, and arrogance as "churchians," since the gospel that you follow exists only in your head.

This is amusing, coming from a confirmed liar. Lying is not a Christian virtue. You are clearly a Churchian snake with no commitment to truth.

Game, in its logical and intellectual conclusion, requires an individual to adopt dark triad personality traits.

It does nothing of the sort. Again, you're lying.

Blogger Spacebunny August 17, 2012 3:21 AM  

Game, in short for Tom O who seems to be riding the short bus - is ceasing to put up with women's shit. It is literally that simple. With the over feminization of men and the over the top strong grrrrl crap that is becoming increasingly worse if you watch tv and send your children to group schooling, and even, and most unfortunately, in modern churches. Look, I grew up with strong women (in the traditional as I call it pioneer woman sense) all around me, but not one of them had husband who put up with their shit. These men were not all alphas, but they were raised in a different time. Game is simply attempting to turn back the clock and give men the confidence to be men again. Once they've tasted the power as it were, they aren't going to go back to being the same submissive little gamma where women are concerned.

Anonymous T14 August 17, 2012 5:27 AM  

Northern Europe is lost. Look how we kowtow to middle-eastern gods. The denizens of Valhalla drown themselves in mead.

Blogger R. Bradley Andrews August 17, 2012 6:07 AM  

A big problem I see in this area is that the insults fly too freely at those who question game in any way.

Maybe you are being clear VD, but some things still seem a bit fuzzy and a lot of the linked stuff is pretty strongly against Christian virtue. Spacebunny's summary is fairly good. That seems compatible of what I know of the Scriptures.

I have been evaluating many things through a much different lens lately, due to reading here and some tough life circumstances completely unrelated to game.

It has made me see more clearly that what I learned from my single mother was not always accurate, except in her view.

I am still walking out the process of figuring out how to be firm while still being Christ-like. I think that is a bigger challenge than many think.

I would note that I disagree with those who say to treat your wife like a replaceable part as well as those who say to idolize her.

Loving your wife as Christ loves the Church requires quite a bit of sacrifice beyond what will be properly acknowledged or appreciated. Though I also look at the firm words Jesus had for several churches, especially in the first part of the book of Revelation and it is clear that His giving is not a mamby-pamby kind either.

Blogger R. Bradley Andrews August 17, 2012 6:34 AM  

I just read the Alpha Game post and I would note that VD does give a definition of game there, though it sounds much more academic than practical and also seems significantly smaller than the PUA game that seems much more common.

Perhaps that is the necessity of a brief definition though. I still see the need for a much more practical application for a faithful Christian. I still like the essence of what Spacebunny said and I think it is worth exploring exactly what that would mean for a Christian's life.

Blogger Vox August 17, 2012 7:24 AM  

A big problem I see in this area is that the insults fly too freely at those who question game in any way.

Too freely? Not at all. Like atheists attempting to criticizing religion, many of those who attempt to criticize Game have put zero effort into understanding what they want to criticize. They deserve nothing but contempt and a kick in the teeth.

I would note that I disagree with those who say to treat your wife like a replaceable part as well as those who say to idolize her.

And precisely who says that? Do give us the names. Do provide the quotations for us.

Anonymous Wendy August 17, 2012 8:09 AM  

Loving your wife as Christ loves the Church requires quite a bit of sacrifice beyond what will be properly acknowledged or appreciated.

Realize though that "being nice" and giving into the wife's whims isn't always what best for wife and family. And it's easier to get in the habit of indulging her using love as an excuse just to keep the peace - like it's easier to let kids get away with stuff rather than constantly discipline them (I'm not conflating the two), but doing the easy thing isn't love. A husband can be firm and a good leader and doesn't have to be a jerk to do so.

Blogger JL Engelbrecht August 17, 2012 8:38 AM  

I have read the foolowing on one of the game blogs: Game is not about getting laid. Game is about becoming a better man, getting laid more often is just a by-product.

As a Christian you don't have accept all the opportunities coming your way.
I have been married for 10 years and have three kids. Since running game I have improved my marriage.
I have also seen the effect of my self-improvement on my wife, for instance walking in public she'd hang on to me as if I'm on display.
I have also seen game work on 20year olds, girls half my age, and clearly wanted me to escalate..which I have not - being married and all.
If Game is about self-improvement, becoming the best you can be, and the Bible commands us to do the best with our talents that we can...are Christians then not obliged to run Game?

Solo

Anonymous RedJack August 17, 2012 9:51 AM  

Tom, let me get this straight.

Being a leader in the home. Not automatically putting up with random temper tantrums, and trying to mold yourself into a man is considered "dark Triad" behavior?

Sir, you are a whimp.

We are not called by God to be nice. Jesus was not nice. He was a asshole to those who needed it, and held out his hand to those who wanted His help. Remember he called the religious leaders of the time a bunch of shit heads, tore up the Temple markets, and was such a threat that both the religious and secular leaders thought decided to kill Him in the worst way possible under Roman law. Was Jesus acting under the "dark triad"? Did He die for being "Not Nice!?"

Sir, you have to take a good hard look at what you are saying.

Anonymous Tom O August 17, 2012 1:42 PM  

To Vox:

This is amusing, coming from a confirmed liar. Lying is not a Christian virtue. You are clearly a Churchian snake with no commitment to truth.

But accusing is a Christian virtue?

If I had no commitment to truth, I wouldn't concede points whenever it became clear that I was wrong. Every time I post something, I ask myself, "what would it take to falsify this argument?" If someone falsifies any argument of mine, I accept that there were correct and move on. If not, I try to ask questions, and understand what kind of evidence that person has which is causing him to hold onto that idea.

Either way, I did lie, and I'm sorry. Let's try this again.

--

To RedJack:

Sir, you are a whimp.

If I appear to be a wimp, it is only because I recognize that dominance has a price. To quote Thucydides, "It is a general rule of human nature that people despise those who treat them well, and look up to those who make no concessions." A man who desires dominance over others is forced to make no concessions, even if he's wrong. While this is not a heavy burden for some here to bear, I cannot bear this heavy a yoke.


We are not called by God to be nice. Jesus was not nice. He was a asshole to those who needed it, and held out his hand to those who wanted His help. Remember he called the religious leaders of the time a bunch of shit heads, tore up the Temple markets, and was such a threat that both the religious and secular leaders thought decided to kill Him in the worst way possible under Roman law. Was Jesus acting under the "dark triad"? Did He die for being "Not Nice!?"


Do not forget that:
(1) Jesus was eternally obedient and submissive to the Father, even unto death.
(2) Jesus left his divine status to become "lower than angels" (Hebrews 2:9)
(3) Jesus told his disciples that only showing kindness to those who would be kind in return is meaningless (Luke 6:33)
(4) Jesus sacrificed himself for all of humanity, even though humanity hated him.
(5) Jesus told the same Pharisees to be obedient to the government, even if they felt that the government was being unjust. (Matthew 22:21)

If Jesus subscribed to the theory of Rebelanity, we would have no salvation, and we would be men most miserable.

Everything which Christ did to the money-changers and the pharisees wasn't done out of a desire "to exert his mental dominance," but rather because the will of the Father commanded it.

Blogger R. Bradley Andrews August 17, 2012 1:53 PM  

My comments were on the general feel I have gotten in the comments to many game posts over the months (years?).

Quote from this thread:

2) Make them understand that you don't need them they need you, they are replaceable. Never let them no if you need them deep down inside.

Not everyone, but it symbolizes a common thread. I don't completely disagree with it, but I definitely disagree with it in the context of marriage. You can overcome a split, but it is a major issue that God did not intend (such a split).

My comment about insults is more geared toward the discussions on many of the Alpha Game posts. I can dig out or two out if needed. It seemed common to me that someone who didn't want to bonk all the females he could was labelled a gamma or delta.

Mild, but along the insult lines here:



People that get the vapors over game are the same people who get the vapors over guns.


I would note that I have no problem over guns and have started acquiring them myself. I do not like the PUA aspect that influences so much of what I read about game. I have only done reading from the links on the Alpha Game site and maybe a level or two farther.

What sources for a more balanced approach to game are there? Does such a view exist?

Anonymous Toby Temple August 17, 2012 2:06 PM  

Do not forget that:
(1) Jesus was eternally obedient and submissive to the Father, even unto death.
(2) Jesus left his divine status to become "lower than angels" (Hebrews 2:9)
(3) Jesus told his disciples that only showing kindness to those who would be kind in return is meaningless (Luke 6:33)
(4) Jesus sacrificed himself for all of humanity, even though humanity hated him.
(5) Jesus told the same Pharisees to be obedient to the government, even if they felt that the government was being unjust. (Matthew 22:21)


Those are irrelevant. You are the one who is forgetting something here.

1 - We humans are not the Almighty Father.
2 - You can be kind without having to compromise your values.
3 - He sacrificed himself to all humanity because it is the Father's will
4 - There are exceptions. You are not suppose to obey a government that is telling you to do something abominable before God.

Blogger Cane Caldo August 17, 2012 2:10 PM  

"I was quite surprised that Cane wrote such an article and that Dalrock published it. It displays what looks like a noticeable lack of research or poor reading skills.

But bottom line, he just doesn't understand the subject."


There's more where that came from, and not just me. MPAI, after all.

It's certainly fair to say that I didn't/don't understand Game, but it is not true that I haven't tried to understand: I have, and for quite awhile.

So, I'm an idiot, and just don't get it. What good is saying that men--including your average idiot--need Game, if idiots like me can't get it? And if, in our idiocy, we can't tell the difference between what Vox calls Game (let's call it "Mere Game", and Roissy's PUA Game? Read the comments. This happens all the time.

Part of the reason I struggle with Game, is because apparently because I'm a natural/asshole, and idiot, to boot. Can you see the problem here? "Let's arm the idiot asshole with Game and send him out into the world."

Blogger R. Bradley Andrews August 17, 2012 2:18 PM  

You are an "idiot" if you don't get it right away. I suppose I am by the same standard, but I share serious concerns about the game concepts as I have noted. It is not all as clear as some claim.

A lot of the conversations remind me of the idea that we should let teenagers run the world while they still know everything.

Anonymous Toby Temple August 17, 2012 2:19 PM  

So, I'm an idiot, and just don't get it. What good is saying that men--including your average idiot--need Game, if idiots like me can't get it? And if, in our idiocy, we can't tell the difference between what Vox calls Game (let's call it "Mere Game", and Roissy's PUA Game? Read the comments. This happens all the time.

It's not that you don't get Game. It's that you don't understand that you need to listen and exert enough mental muscle to understand what Vox and Roissy are saying.

Anonymous Tom O August 17, 2012 2:41 PM  

[Game] does not [require one to adopt Dark Triad personality traits]. Again, you're lying.

A partially applied theory of game or contradictory theory of game may not. But the game you espouse, taken to its logical conclusion, does.

(•) Game is the conscious attempt to observe and understand successful natural behaviors and attitudes in order to artificially simulate them.
(•) Game, also, is being taken to its logical conclusion, and we are seeking to maximize such behavior.
(∴) A successful practitioner of game must observe and understand successful natural behaviors and attitudes in order to artificially stimulate them.
(•) There's good evidence to suggest that the most successful natural behaviors and attitudes are Dark Triad behavior and attitudes.
(∴) A successful practitioner of game will adopt Dark Triad behavior and attitudes.

If you're going to show that the Dark Triad aren't successful, you're going to have to explain:

(1) The known empirical evidence showing a strong connection between more sex and dark triad traits.
(2) The frequency of dark triad personalities in positions of power (politicians, CEOs, wealthy men)
(3) The appeal of people with dark triad personalities in fiction (James Bond, for instance)
(4) The view that people with dark triad personalities are more charismatic among both men and women.

Not only that, but even if my previous argument were falsified, you have to consider this problem: what happens when everyone successfully applies game? Do women get bored with dominant but law-abiding men, and go seek more extremes, like actual criminals? Much like how nobody finds old jokes funny, or porn showing missionary position arousing, women aren't going to find dominant but law-abiding men enticing if there are enough of them. So the next logical step is the forbidden territory: criminal activities, violence, and abuse.

All of the data screams destruction as the destination of game. I wish I were wrong, but I don't know what kind of intellectual gymnastics am I expected to perform to justify the above.

Blogger R. Bradley Andrews August 17, 2012 2:50 PM  

Cane, I share many of the thoughts (not all of them) in your guest blog post. I am slogging through the comments there and it is interesting.

I do not believe I came across Dalrock's blog before.

Blogger Spacebunny August 17, 2012 3:03 PM  

I wish I were wrong

Wish granted. You are.

Anonymous Athor Pel August 17, 2012 3:24 PM  

"Tom O August 17, 2012 2:41 PM
...
All of the data screams destruction as the destination of game. I wish I were wrong, but I don't know what kind of intellectual gymnastics am I expected to perform to justify the above."



Again, for those that haven't gotten it yet. Game is a set of tools. How you use them is what makes them good or bad, not the tool itself. Motivation matters.

To say it again with a slightly different emphasis. it is a SET of tools. You don't have to use them all, nor do you have to use any particular one. You use what works for you. What that means is that you use what conforms to the ethical boundaries you adhere to.



Blogger Markku August 17, 2012 4:20 PM  

(∴) A successful practitioner of game will adopt Dark Triad behavior and attitudes.

That would be only true if getting women were the only thing to optimize in life, but for a Christian it isn't. Having to settle for suboptimal Game is still more Game than having no Game at all, so you still need to learn the information.

Blogger Markku August 17, 2012 4:29 PM  

Most spokesmen for Game aren't Christians, so obviously they are going to apply it in a way that is consistent with their own (wrong) world view.

My advice to a blue-pill Christian would be that on one hand these people have ten times the wisdom than any Christian they are ever likely to meet have, on a particular area (the nature of women), but their nihilistic application of it is poisonous. So, what a Christian has to do is always consider the methods they propose, whether or not they are the logical result of that wisdom, or of their nihilism. The latter the Christian has to reject.

Anonymous Toby Temple August 17, 2012 4:37 PM  

A successful practitioner of game will adopt Dark Triad behavior and attitudes

This is not accurate.

Let me correct that.

A successful practitioner of PUA game have already successfully adopted the Dark Triad behavior and attitudes

Blogger Joshua_D August 17, 2012 6:54 PM  

Azimus August 16, 2012 11:09 PM

Sure. Game is about making yourself more attractive to fetch higher quality women by mimicking what have come to be called alphas. It's about getting the babe.


Well, I see that you really haven't read much of what Vox, the Ilk or other Christian men have written about Game.

Blogger Desert Cat August 17, 2012 7:28 PM  

Athor Pel August 17, 2012 3:24 PM
To say it again with a slightly different emphasis. it is a SET of tools. You don't have to use them all, nor do you have to use any particular one. You use what works for you. What that means is that you use what conforms to the ethical boundaries you adhere to.


Cane has been agitating for these tools to be listed and expounded upon. I suspect we will get to that eventually, but let me throw out just one as a "for example": Handling shit-tests.

This is actually a subset of tools in its own right, consisting of a) understanding what a shit-test is, why it happens, and what the desired outcome is, b) recognizing the shit test when it hits as differentiated from legitimate concerns, c) having an arsenal of appropriate responses and routines to address various forms of shit-tests (said arsenal including for example the awesomely effective "agree and amplify" routine), d) maintaining the correct frame throughout to guide the interaction to the outcome she is actually after (affirmation of her belief in your fitness to lead).

Someone elsewhere said (Cane?), "if a Christian can't do it then it is Game. If a Christian can do it, then it is not really game." I call BS. Shit-test handling is not only perfectly legitimate for a Christian man to understand and employ, but is dead center in the PUA understanding of Game.

Anonymous Azimus August 17, 2012 9:04 PM  

@ Josh D

Hey Chuckles at least have the respect to add an intelligent response to your ankle biting.

I certainly showed you that respect.

Blogger Cane Caldo August 17, 2012 9:15 PM  

So, what a Christian has to do is always consider the methods they propose, whether or not they are the logical result of that wisdom, or of their nihilism. The latter the Christian has to reject.

You are fooling yourself if you think this possible for the average man.

As you all like to remind each other, or put each other down: MPAI. Do you not know that the readers and commenters of blogs like Vox's and Dalrock's represent an incredibly high intelligence crowd, and even they can't "get" or agree on Game, its scope, or its merits? What on earth makes you think this you can make this acceptable and applicable to the average Christian man? If he is genuinely interested in trying to live a Godly life, he is going to marry the first former carousel rider that nabs him; all the while believing he had tight Game and Jesus to thank. Have you not seen this when you read, and read between the lines, of comments?

Someone elsewhere said (Cane?), "if a Christian can't do it then it is Game. If a Christian can do it, then it is not really game." I call BS. Shit-test handling is not only perfectly legitimate for a Christian man to understand and employ, but is dead center in the PUA understanding of Game.

That's me, but I did so with the understanding that Game is inextricable from PUA Game.*

Read the comments here and Alpha Game Plan: Game understanding is a mess; for the man; more so for the Christian Man; even more so for the married Christian Man. It's insurmountably so for the average married Christian man who has neither been trained in, nor has the capacity for, the logic and discernment that Markku would have them apply. Combine this with their unmet desires, and I have to wonder how many are going to be able to navigate this terrain to a decent wife; much less in chastity.

*You can find an argument for this here (in my defense, but at my expense) that lots of Game writers seem to like: http://societyofamateurgentlemen.wordpress.com/2012/08/17/the-one-game-to-bind-them-or-is-there-any-point-to-all-this-ramble/

Anonymous Azimus August 17, 2012 9:50 PM  

@ Josh D -

OK. Since you took the time to respond, surely you would not mind showing me the error in my thinking?

Anonymous Tom O August 17, 2012 9:51 PM  

Again, for those that haven't gotten it yet. Game is a set of tools. How you use them is what makes them good or bad, not the tool itself. Motivation matters.

To say it again with a slightly different emphasis. it is a SET of tools. You don't have to use them all, nor do you have to use any particular one. You use what works for you. What that means is that you use what conforms to the ethical boundaries you adhere to.


Except that every time someone expounds upon these tools, it's about how to dishonestly manipulate your value. And this isn't about acting game versus becoming it either. A person who is legitimately to the core narcissistic, dominating, and ruthless almost certainly "has good game," but he or she might be completely incompetent at whatever he hopes to accomplish.

This is also why Game only works in social settings, where the brain is easily "hacked," so to speak. Game will get you far in business, politics, sex, and communication but not so much in mathematics, linguistics, or even cooking. In those areas, it's immediately obvious that you have it, or you don't.

Of course, nothing would be popular if it weren't for a speck of truth contained inside them. However, anyone who has faith in himself would know to "avoid shit-tests" or "don't place women on a pedestal". But for the most part, this is a small part of what most Game experts talk about.

People like to say that Game is fundamentally un-Christian. However, this isn't about Christianity: Game is fundamentally unethical. No Muslim or Atheist I know supports dishonesty, but yet Game, at its core is about this.

Consider this piece of evidence straight from a Game practitioner: "The reason women get so upset when various pick-up artists and Game theoreticians mention the easily demonstrable fact that at least some women are inordinately attracted to jerks and assholes, especially violent ones, is because they know it is true but they wish it was not."

So it's clear that women don't actually want to be attracted to jerks, but they are anyway. Again, what can be said here that can't be said about confidence artists? A con artist artificially stimulates something the mark desires, but once the stimulation is gone, it is revealed to be just an illusion. In the meantime, the mark doesn't get what he actually wants, but the con artist is nonetheless all the merrier.

Roissy Maxim #98: "Marriage is no escape from the sexual market and the possibility that you may be outbid by a competitor with higher value."
Corollary: Neither is Christianity such an escape. The Hamster/Hypergamy just doesn't care.


The sexual market isn't that old nor is it that omnipresent.

Societies that placed high value on filial piety arranged marriages, and even in the Bible, arrange marriages are held in very high esteem (Adam and Eve, Isaac and Rebekah, Moses and Zipporah). Today, arranged marriages are known to have a lower divorce rate, and both participants are overall said to be happier than in non-arranged marriages.

In ancient societies, many of our problems with hypergamy would've been considered completely alien, bizarre, and outright insane. I predict that were we to return to this model, all of our modern intersex problems would completely disappear.

Blogger Desert Cat August 17, 2012 11:34 PM  

Cane Caldo August 17, 2012 9:15 PM
MPAI. Do you not know that the readers and commenters of blogs like Vox's and Dalrock's represent an incredibly high intelligence crowd, and even they can't "get" or agree on Game, its scope, or its merits?


So what is difficult is therefore impossible? We are just getting started Cane. At least that is my hope. And your contributions (however lacking in Vox's view) are valuable as a sounding board. There is a *lot* of ground to cover.

But I am not so pessimistic as to think it impossible. I, a borderline Idiot, somehow managed to glean enough useful information from Roissy, Keoni Galt, Vox Athol Kay and others to pull a sure-thing divorce back from the brink of disaster three years ago, to a situation where, if she's not quite eating out of my hand yet, she is far far happier being married to me than ever, and for reasons she can't quite fathom (but I know perfectly well).

Idiot or not, I stumbled and bumbled through to extraordinary success. Give credit to the masses of men who have testified to similar success in the various venues over the last couple years. There is something out there that works, that is perfectly consistent with biblical Christianity, and that is being successfully employed by many. It just hasn't been formalized yet.

Anonymous Wendy August 17, 2012 11:41 PM  

The sexual market isn't that old nor is it that omnipresent.

So adultery is a recent construct? God was waaaaay ahead of his time with the ten commandments then.

Anytime men and women are in mixed company there is a sexual market place. How one conducts oneself is the important part. Obviously, loyalty to their spouse is the preferred mode of conduct for those married.

Anonymous Azimus August 17, 2012 11:47 PM  

Josh D -

I suppose this statement could be simplified to "you dOn't understand the definition." Fine. I recognize the conflation of Game with what most people used to call "Being a man" that is being made to make the concept palatable to Christians. If that is the definition then it is still intimately tied to a man's interaction with women, and the majority component of that interaction is courtship. Are we still in agreement?

Then, by Vox's own definition Game is a simulation (my word was ruse) of successful behavior. This is inseparably tied to interaction with women, and that interaction in turn is mostly courtship or courtship related. Is it too much to say then it is a ruse to court women?

And if we can agree this far, then my observation that Christian men, by and large pursuing a spouse, would be either locked into the simulation behavior for their lives or risking ruin in revealing the Delta within to the woman they had deceived up to that point is not that far of a leap from there.

Anonymous Azimus August 17, 2012 11:57 PM  

Dang, am I being blocked? I wrote three different replies that all disappeared... I didn't think I was so off the mark as to get blocked?

Anonymous JP (real one) August 18, 2012 12:01 AM  

On a lighter note...

Female MMA star Rhonda Rousey was brought up in a recent post. Even a strong, confident woman like that can be absolutely gamed by the fight alpha:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km_yWuFkQGM

Anonymous Azimus August 18, 2012 12:03 AM  

Well the last one seems to have stuck... I guess clicking the reply button on a smartphone works differently then on the PC. At least this piece of crap iPhone (comPany issue)

Anonymous Mohawk August 19, 2012 7:34 AM  

"You are fooling yourself if you think this possible for the average man.

As you all like to remind each other, or put each other down: MPAI."

Cane Caldo-

You seem to insist that most Christians are incapable of gaining wisdom and that because they are stupid it must be impossible for them to understand game. Therefore we should just stop discussing it and applying the tactics that are useful for a christian and allow them to wallow in their ignorance and failing relationships.

I am a Christian. I was a gamma who took the redpill after things went bad with my first girlfriend. It was then that I started paying closer attention to Vox's posts on women and I also started reading Roissy. As a christian I have no desire to live the life of a PUA. But Roissy's observations of the nature of women are accurate and apply even to the "good Christian girls".

While I would have preferred to learn more of this from a Christian perspective, the fact is that the church, and most christian men are not teaching us younger guys about women. To that I say shame on them! I have had to learn what I can from the secular game blogs precisely because it can barely be found from the Christian community.

Have I been tempted to go out and live the life of a PUA? Sure. But I know that I can not go down that path AND follow Christ. That is the reality of being a Christian.

Also, the last thing I would ever do is marry a carousal rider. If there is one thing I have learned from game it is that a man must have standards. When a women does not meet those standards it is appropriate to next her and keep looking for a women that will make a good wife. The bible says the worth of a virtuous women is far above rubies. That is because there aren't many of them. If rubies where every were, they wouldn't be valuable.

I say that Christian men can come to understand game and apply it in a moral way. I have.

Anonymous Mohawk August 19, 2012 7:39 AM  

"were every where"

darn it

Anonymous Stilicho August 19, 2012 7:14 PM  

Churchianity is the spine killer...

Blogger Cane Caldo August 20, 2012 2:59 AM  

Therefore we should just stop discussing it and applying the tactics that are useful for a christian and allow them to wallow in their ignorance and failing relationships.

No. Therefore we should be clearer about it.

Anonymous Mohawk August 20, 2012 8:06 AM  

What you want is someone to do the work for you. Most of the commenters here, even some of the females, agree that game works and is applicable for Christians. Actually, I would say especially for Christians. But that is because they have been reading, discussing, and observing for awhile now. It's not something you figure out in a day.

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