Atheists and Daddy issues
Behold science in action. We'll begin with the well-known observation that many atheists have serious problems with their fathers. To this, we add the fact that scientists at Boston University, the University of British Columbia, and UC Davis have all reported evidence supporting my original hypothesis that there is a connection between atheism and higher than normal Asperger's Quotients, as well as this new study, which has the potential to explain the reason for that connection.
This all leads to my hypothesis that the reason atheists are less likely to be neurotypical and less likely to believe in the existence of gods and the supernatural is because their fathers are, on average, older. This hypothetical causal connection between the age of the father and the atheism of the child is interesting in that it would have the potential to explain both the relatively recent increase in the number of atheists as well as the reason Europe is more atheist than the United States and other religious countries.
The testable prediction generated by this hypothesis is that there will be a statistically significant difference in the average/median age of fathers of atheists and the rest of the population. The average age of the atheist's fathers should be older than the norm, while due to their much greater numbers, the average age of religious individual's fathers will very closely approximate it. Unfortunately, the USA doesn't track the age of fathers, only first-time fathers, but Australia does.
1. The average age of a first-time dad in the U.S. was 29.65 in 2010, considerably younger than a Western European equivalent of 32.51 (based on the average of UK, France, Germany, Netherlands, Italy and Spain only).
2. Between 1988 and 2008 the median age of married fathers increased by almost three years, from 31.0 to 34.1 years, while the median age of unmarried fathers who acknowledged the birth of their child also increased, from 27.0 years to 29.8 years. In 2008 the median age of all fathers was 33.1 years. [This indicates that the median age of all fathers in Australia was 30 in 1988.]
So, for the time being, we'll use 30 as our approximate average age. And like we did before, let's take an informal poll here to see if the average age of fathers of the atheists here is, in fact, above 30. Just indicate if you are atheist, agnostic, or religious, and your father's age when you were born. Here are some examples:
Vox Day: religious-25
Richard Dawkins: atheist-26
Christopher Hitchens: atheist-40
Daniel Dennett: atheist-32
Bertrand Russell: atheist-30
John Russell: atheist-50
Skatje Myers: atheist-32
Friedrich Nietzsche: atheist-31
H.G. Wells: atheist-38
Scott Atran: atheist-26
So the average age of the father of the New Atheists is 32.7. So far so good. Anyone know how old Sam Harris's or PZ Myers's fathers were when they were born?
Older men are more likely than young ones to father a child who develops autism or schizophrenia, because of random mutations that become more numerous with advancing paternal age, scientists reported on Wednesday, in the first study to quantify the effect as it builds each year. The age of mothers had no bearing on the risk for these disorders, the study found....My random thought of the day is that older fathers not only increase the number of random mutations, but also tend to behave differently than younger fathers. Certainly everyone who has multiple children knows that the youngest is brought up somewhat differently than the eldest, and at least part of this may have to do with the increased age of the father rather than "been there done that" syndrome. This means that the children of older fathers are likely to experience a double-whammy of Nature and Nurture teaming up against them with regards to the probability of their turning out neurotypical.
The overall risk to a man in his 40s or older is in the range of 2 percent, at most, and there are other contributing biological factors that are entirely unknown.
This all leads to my hypothesis that the reason atheists are less likely to be neurotypical and less likely to believe in the existence of gods and the supernatural is because their fathers are, on average, older. This hypothetical causal connection between the age of the father and the atheism of the child is interesting in that it would have the potential to explain both the relatively recent increase in the number of atheists as well as the reason Europe is more atheist than the United States and other religious countries.
The testable prediction generated by this hypothesis is that there will be a statistically significant difference in the average/median age of fathers of atheists and the rest of the population. The average age of the atheist's fathers should be older than the norm, while due to their much greater numbers, the average age of religious individual's fathers will very closely approximate it. Unfortunately, the USA doesn't track the age of fathers, only first-time fathers, but Australia does.
1. The average age of a first-time dad in the U.S. was 29.65 in 2010, considerably younger than a Western European equivalent of 32.51 (based on the average of UK, France, Germany, Netherlands, Italy and Spain only).
2. Between 1988 and 2008 the median age of married fathers increased by almost three years, from 31.0 to 34.1 years, while the median age of unmarried fathers who acknowledged the birth of their child also increased, from 27.0 years to 29.8 years. In 2008 the median age of all fathers was 33.1 years. [This indicates that the median age of all fathers in Australia was 30 in 1988.]
So, for the time being, we'll use 30 as our approximate average age. And like we did before, let's take an informal poll here to see if the average age of fathers of the atheists here is, in fact, above 30. Just indicate if you are atheist, agnostic, or religious, and your father's age when you were born. Here are some examples:
Vox Day: religious-25
Richard Dawkins: atheist-26
Christopher Hitchens: atheist-40
Daniel Dennett: atheist-32
Bertrand Russell: atheist-30
John Russell: atheist-50
Skatje Myers: atheist-32
Friedrich Nietzsche: atheist-31
H.G. Wells: atheist-38
Scott Atran: atheist-26
So the average age of the father of the New Atheists is 32.7. So far so good. Anyone know how old Sam Harris's or PZ Myers's fathers were when they were born?












224 Comments:
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Shimshon
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A
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The other skeptic
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1 – 200 of 224 Newer› Newest»Shimshon: religious-28
religious, 33
Rantor-Religious-39
Salt religious-32
Lulabelle religious - 24
Greatheart - Religious - 23
religious - 47
(sorry man, hope you get a good sample size)
Would birth position be of any value too? I was the oldest of 2. My brother's religious and was born when my father was 35.
Hong Hu Shi - Religious - 35
religious-40
What about variables such as lifelong religious vs. fathers age and formerly athiest/agnostic converted to religious vs. fathers age? Or do those not matter at this point?
Indoexpatriate - Religious - 30
bethyada - religious - 23
Vox is probably going to be overloaded with results as it is, but it most likely won't hurt to include a little more info as long as we decide what the extra data will be early in the thread.
I'm the youngest of 5.
religious - 26
(youngest sibling also religious - 38)
This comment has been removed by the author.
What about variables such as lifelong religious vs. fathers age and formerly athiest/agnostic converted to religious vs. fathers age? Or do those not matter at this point?
Irrelevant for this purpose.
Religious and my Dad was 20.
For some reason I would assume the conclusion would be the opposite. That men would be better Fathers and more willing to seek out the supernatural the older they are. But just using my own experience there I guess.
Agnostic 33
DC Al Fine, religious, 28
Andrew Cordeaux - religious - 22
Higher Asperger's quotient scores for atheists is at least partly due to higher Asperger's scores for high-IQ population, since self identifying as atheist requires IQ above certain level.
Higher probability for older fathers having children with autism may be due to the same high IQ late bloomer effect. Not sure about schizophrenia; don't understand that one well. But it could also be the same effect, depending on the causes of schizophrenia.
Also, the strong religious tend to have children younger, so if upbringing has effect on subsequent belief, age of father would be conflated with that effect.
Religious - 22
Religious, 37
Atheist - 20
Religious - 23
Religious - 37
Religious (elder child) - 28
Religious - 40
Chev - 35 - Religious - only child
Michael Maier - religious, father's age 20
Christian- 28
Religious - 37
Religious - 25
I'll throw in for my brother as well:
Religious - 23.
My family is proof of your hypothesis. My brother is a minister, and our father was two years younger when he was born. I am not a minister, yet still religious, born two years later. It's a good thing my parents didn't have another child two years later, or he'd be a godless heathen!
It's Science!
Religious - 24
My younger brother is a pastor, and my dad was 25 when he was born.
My younger sister is religious as well--don't know if you're counting females in this--and dad was 27 when she was born.
Big Bob - religious - 31
older brother - religious - 28
younger brother - religious - 37
BN religious 21
JCB - religious 29
Religious - 25
Megabozz, religious, 52
It's Science!
Totally, dude! How much do they pay for a Nobel prize anyhow?
DW Religious 26
Younger siblings: 28 and 30
Asatru Heathen - religious - 22
Mini Heathen 1 - religious - 24
Mini Heathen 2 - religious - 26
Religious - 33
Joe Doakes - oldest of 6 - religious - 30
Catholic family, my two baby brothers were born 15 and 17 years after me, Dad was 45-47 - brothers are not religious.
Jay c - religious - 32
E.G - Religious - 36
religious-41
Atheists most certainly do have daddy issues.
Brother - religious - 22
Sister - religious - 23
Sister -religious - 24
Sister - nonreligious - 26
Brother - religious - 27
Stickwick: religious-23
Carnaby: religious-24
myself atheist 28.
brother- atheist 31
brother- agnostic 33
brother- reglious 35
antonym: agnostic, 41
Wow. Tony Randall's kids are going to be so damn crazy.
HH religious - Catholic ---
Siblings and age of father at time of birth: 25, 27, 29, 31, 32
My kids and my age at birth: 25, 27, 29, 30
However --- I can't support the conclusion that VD is is obviously trying to drive this to -- atheism is a product of genetic mutation :).
Myself- agnostic - 27
My Dad- atheist- 44
My half-sister- Christian-76 (!)
My mom-Church organist-36
"My random thought of the day is that older fathers not only increase the number of random mutations, but also tend to behave differently than younger fathers. Certainly everyone who has multiple children knows that the youngest is brought up somewhat differently than the eldest, and at least part of this may have to do with the increased age of the father rather than "been there done that" syndrome."
How do older fathers differ from younger? Is an older father worse in the role than a younger, all else being equal? I ask because my father was in his 20s with my siblings and me, so I have no experience being raised by an older father.
As for the "daddy issues" hypothesis of atheism, I'm skeptical but I think it raises some interesting questions. I remember reading an article years ago which argued that atheism is in fact an expression of a deep seated Oedipus complex. The atheist in this scenario is acting on a subconscious desire to kill his father and take his place so that he can enjoy unlimited sexual freedom.
Probably Buncombe, I know, but interesting.
Religious, 21
Me - Christian/Religious - My dad was 21
My Son - Christian/Religious - I was 26
religious - 50 (I am the oldest of three)
Me: Christian/Relgious - May Dad was 36
My Son: Chrisitan/Religious - I was 29 (my son was my 3rd child)
My ages for my kids
1st - 25
2nd - 28
3rd - 29
4th - 32
5th - 34
AmyJ - religious - 25
Is Asperger's a birth defect?
I can't support the conclusion that VD is is obviously trying to drive this to -- atheism is a product of genetic mutation :).
Why do you hate science?
Adam - religious - 38
Religious 21
N5
It wouldn't surprise me, in the least, to find a genetic component in religiosity or lack thereof.
However, I suspect that children of older fathers tend to be less religious just because the were born more recently. It is much easier to grow up nonreligious today than it was 20, 50, 100 years ago. etc. You need to control for this.
I also suspect that the older age of the new athiest's dads may be a simple function of being upper class--they tend to postpone childbearing.
Atheist (agnostic per local definitions) - 17
Yea, I'm quite literally a bastard--is that enough of a daddy issue for you?
Religious - 28
Brother religious - 32
Wife religious - 19
Sis in law religious - 25
Religious 30
wrf3:religious, 33
Religious - 34
Wayne - religious - 27
Religious - 40
I have 2 brothers, both are also religious:
eldest bro - 38
youngest bro - 43
But we were born and raise in the Philippines. So that should be the main factor.
Religious: 26
Sam the man, religious, father 35 when born
Religious - 39
Religious - 23
This could in part explain the rise in autism as well.
Religious - 37
Religious - 26
Religious - 26
religious - 26
Josh religious - 34
Sister religious - 36
Brother religious - 39
Brother religious - 39 (twins)
Sister religious - 42
Me - Religious - 26
[siblings]
Sister - Religious - 29
Other Sister - Religious - 32
Agnostic, 21
Me - Religious - 40
Sister -Religious - 42
Me religious 36
Brother R-34
Brother R-38
Brother R-41
Sis R-43
Religious - 25
Greg Cochran has a posting in this as well
I always thought this stuff was made up by feminists trying to draw attention away from the problems of women delaying having children so they could ride the cock carousel during their prime fertility years.
Darth Toolpodicus - Religious - 25
Astrosmith - religious - 23
Astrosmith - religious - 23
Atheist William Lowe's atheist father, according to his testimony, was 31 when William was born.
I realize that you aren't counting history for converts (either to or from religion) but I'll just note that I am a former "from birth" atheist and an adult convert to your religious category. I only mention that because I most certainly was the atheist son of an old father. That said, for me:
Religious - 38
CJ - Religious -33
Agnostic - 30
FrankNorman: Christian, Dad was 30
Religious - 21
ridip: religious-21
religious - 31
This may also have something to do with the personality of people that decide to wait more to have a child, as well. Aren't there studies showing that atheists/agnostics tend to have less children, and at older age?
It may also have to do with the COMPETENCE required to have a child as well. That includes being a Gamma feminist, which almost certainly will make it more difficult to find a mate to even get the project on the road.
And I know some atheist couples who do not want to have a child because "what's the point?". One of them mentioned that a human being is just a "machine that produces poop". Another, an insufferable, extremely leftist philosophy student said that she "hates the notion that the purpose of human beings is procreation. Because humans have absolutely no purpose whatsoever, and so even bearing children is nonsensical".
Anyway:
Religious - 40
Religious - 25
(I'm the oldest. My youngest sibling, a brother, was born when Dad was almost 33. This brother is probably the most religious of the four of us. My sister, who was born when Dad was 30, is the least religious. One other brother was born when Dad was 28.)
Religious - 27
Given the peculiarity (which is not to say it's unhelpful) of this methodology, would you say there was also a point in time where it was possible to plot, say, a belief in heliocentricity (as against terracentricity) or a belief in flat-earthism or round-earthism, based on data like a father's age?
I say this because it should be obvious: either God/gods exist(s) or else He/they does/do not, and whichever way the truth obtains, it's always been one way or the other since before the dawn of civilization, whether human beings agreed or not. In the same way, the solar system has always been structured (at least for as long as it's existed) in the way which it always has been: and the beliefs of Akhenaten or Copernicus or Ptolemy have only altered what humans thought about the case, they have never altered what actually _was_ the case.
Granted that people generally tend to take an emotional and personal interest in the existence (or not) of God, whereas their emotional and personal stake in heliocentricity has varied from time to time and place to place. Still, the question seems worth asking: if this methodology means anything useful in a debate about atheism, can/could it be useful in debates about other hard-to-determine (historically, I mean) questions?
What, for instance, might age of fathers have to do with belief or disbelief in racially-inherited/determined IQ differentials?
Religious - 25
Those biblical patriarchs who allegedly fathered sons at preposterous ages, like when the 100-year-old Abraham fathered Isaac, should have generated whole tribes of atheists according to this reasoning.
Religious 25
BAJ - Religious - 27
Mark Plus
Consider their home environment. If you were raised by a Saint you would probably be religious. Then, too, the tribe itself might have had a policy of stoning if you were overly non-religious.
Religious - 30
Religious - 30
Religious -- 38
(I had one of the highest theist Asperger's Quotients when you did that survey, though I'm not autistic.)
You might also want to do this with Birth Order.
Religious - 25
Religious - 15
Religious - 23
Religious - 26
"at preposterous ages"
Another scientific pronouncement. Because mankind has always remained physiologically static, yes?
Flaming Lutheran - 26
Brother - Scorching Lutheran - 29
Sister - Incinerating Lutheran - 31
Child X,Y, and Z - Excruciating Lutheran female partner says -- NO! (We are certainly not Roman Catholic) - 29+
By the way, speaking of atheists...
There's now a full-blown intellectual Cult of Gnu civil war on.
The Gnu+ have decided to purge themselves of the Gnu-. All atheists must be united in their support of feminism, gun control, homo/trans-rights, socialism and more!
Religious -- 24
My two brothers are religious also. My dad was 29 and 34 respectively when they were born.
If you want to take the whole family, girls included, you have nine religious children whose average paternal age at birth is 30.33
Though I suspect that coming from a large family is a confounding factor.
Who will be doing the peer review?
Former atheist, now Christian: father was 36
Even for an informal online poll, though, posting the result you want before you asked for answers was bad methodology, as most people here are favorable to you and would presumably want you to be proved right
Well, since this is for science...
Simon, religious: 26
Older sister, religious: 24
Brother #1, religious: 28
Brother #2, religious: 30
Brother #3, agnostic (I think): 33
Religious - 23
Even for an informal online poll, though, posting the result you want before you asked for answers was bad methodology, as most people here are favorable to you and would presumably want you to be proved right
I think, based on the very small number of atheist replies compared to their more active presence on other threads, you have it backwards. Moreover, you don't seriously think that this methodology is one I would utilize to attempt proving anything, do you?
Have you truly observed so little about how I operate?
MJB: Religious - 22
Good Will -- 27
Oh, and religious.
Well I'll be the outlier. Very religious, father 39. On the other hand my father had a high mass (catholic) when he got married and ages very slowly.
Jehu-religious 24
Older brother---religious 19
Have you considered investigating any possible relationship between divorced parents and atheism? The mechanism would seem pretty straightforward.
Father 34, religious
My Sister: father 39, atheist
religious - 18
Religious - 24
My daughter was born when I was 31 and she seems to be following the same pattern of intellectually honest skepticism that I went through at her age (21). She'll come around. The facts are compelling.
No_Limit_Bubba™ August 23, 2012 8:38 AM
However, I suspect that children of older fathers tend to be less religious just because the[y] were born more recently.
Huh? There is zero correlation between a person's current age, whether born more recently or in the distant past, and the age of his father at the time he was born. An 80-year old man could be the son of an older father.
Religious-24
religious-22
Religious - 25
The problem I see with this data is it's hardly a random sample.
religious - 36
Religious- 24
Believer--Father 25 yrs.
religious - 37
I was an atheist / agnostic - father's age at birth 41
Sister religious 29
Brother atheist / agnostic 30
Sister agnostic 32
Sister agnostic 35
Sister religious 37
Brother religious 39
Onejohn512 41 *Convert to Christianity
szook - religious 30
Grown up theistic then Christian, agnostic/atheist/deistic now Christian - 27
Brother - 30, not religious
I can tell a difference in my two sons. Oldest was born when I was 26, youngest when I was 31. The oldest loves to hear Bible stories. The youngest not so but he is just 4.
Religious - Father 44
Religious - 44
Religious - 25
Christian -33
16
religious
My father: atheist, 37
My brother: religious, 23
Me: formerly atheist, 37
My son: religious (age 10), 39
Oops..my father was 28 when my brother was born, not 23.
Shutterbug - religious - Christian - 19
sister - religious (new age, unitarian or whatever) - 22
brother - atheist - 29
Atheist - 31
Religious- 25
Religious-30
Religious - 25
Brother - Religious - 27
Religious - 25
Agnostic 33
Agnostics/atheists almost certainly have a higher average here. in fact, I recall seeing something like that
Religious - 20
Brother non-religious - 23
Religious - 20
Brother non-religious - 23
Religious, dad was 22. Former nihilist with daddy abandonment issues.
Myself: Agnostic - 26
Older bro: Religious - 24
Younger bro: Religious - 28
Wife: Religious - 37
Wife's bro: Religious - 36
religious -- 24
Myself: Religious - 36
Husband: Agnostic - 20
This comment has been removed by the author.
Religious, father was 31
(My sister, religious, father was 26)
Religious, eldest, 30
Younger brother, religious, 34
divorced at 35
The Stranger: religious, 20.
weren't john the baptist's parents old?
My father had 4 children, 3 sons. The two sons he had over the age of 40 are more religious than the son had at age 29. All are theists.
This is a fun parlor game:
John Derbyshire's dad, John Robert was (in the younger's words) a "militant atheist."
John Robert was born when his own father was 28.
So for J.R. Derbyshire - atheist, 28.
John Derbyshire himself claims religion, and was born when his dad was almost 46, so...
for John Derbyshire - religious, 46.
That ought to throw things off course!
Oops. John Derbyshire's dad should be listed at 45, not 46.
WinstonWebb: agnostic, 19
...and now that I think of it, Derbs should be listed as an agnostic even though technically he culturally identifies with the Anglican Church (weakly, if at all anymore).
So agnostic, 46.
And thus ends the the Tri-Part Confusion of John Derbyshire's Faith or Lack Thereof.
**I think, based on the very small number of atheist replies compared to their more active presence on other threads, you have it backwards.**
Fair point.
**Moreover, you don't seriously think that this methodology is one I would utilize to attempt proving anything, do you?**
Bad methodology is bad methodology. I don't care much what you intend to do with it.
Religious - 27
Yep, probably time to give it a rest in my case.
religious - 23
stg58 - Baptist - 44 oldest of 5. next three brothers are absolute lunatics, youngest sibling, sister is also Baptist (my dad was 55 when she was born) and most similar to myself.
My dad was the exception to the rule. He started off as an orthodox Jew in the Bronx in 1932, then at Columbia went through his objectivist phase in the 1950's with Alan Greenspan. Became an atheist for a few years, then became one of the JBS' primary speakers and writers. That led him to my mom (aged 24 when I was born), a Primitive Baptist from Pasadena, Texas. After they married, my dad slowly became a Christian, and was baptized in a country pond in East Texas. He isn't around anymore to be interviewed about his awesomeness, sorry Vox, but he was a big fan of yours.
religious - 19
religious - 20
religious - 30
formerly agnostic, now believer father was 37
brother formerly Catholic, now born again same father only 40
religious - 50
Lucas - Religious - 24
religious - 22
von Fackenheim, atheist, 39
Believer - 18
Religious - 41
Religious - 26
Christian, youngest of two,
older sister(Christian) - 25
me- 29
I think the daddy issue variable has a lot of merit. There's a common saying that the way a person views their earthly father has a correlation with how they view their Heavenly Father. While it isn't full-proof, I note 9/10 people I know w God issues definitely have daddy issues: male and female.
Hope I'm not too late.
Religious, father was 27 when I was born.
If this little theory were true, it would be an outstanding reason for men to wait until they are older to father children.
Oh...Sorry
Me: Non-religious
Father: 27
Bad methodology is bad methodology. I don't care much what you intend to do with it.
Then you are an idiot about information gathering. Methodology is determined by the intention.
me (religious) - 29
sister (religious) - 36
@Suomynona
Nice catch. Not sure what I was thinking...
Mea culpa.
also, these two are very interesting:
girlfriend (religious) - 43
best friend (religious) - 49
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