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Thursday, August 09, 2012

Dr. Helen asks about doors

And the opening thereof:
I have been pondering this question lately as I have noticed that it is mostly older men that open doors for women anymore. Younger men tend to go in first and let the door hit you as you walk through. Though I am a woman, I tend to hold the door if I get to it first and will hold it for men or women....

I can understand why men no longer want to open doors or help women. I do feel sad, however, that it has come to a situation where society is at this level. In fact, in my forthcoming book on the war against men, I address how our society is breaking down because men no longer want to, or are even afraid to interact with women and girls.
I open building doors for men, children, old women, and young women who don't carry themselves with an attitude. I used to open car doors for women, but I don't anymore because I got tired of feeling stupid every time I went to the other side of the car only to stand there uselessly as the woman, already in the car, closed the door herself. I suspect remote door entry might play a role in that, but it might also be simple female impatience.

It's probably a character flaw, but I do tend to get a minor kick out of the affronted look on an entitled modern princess's face as she arrogantly marches toward the door, expecting me to dutifully hold it open for her, only to find it closing on her face. It actually took some time to unlearn the habit, as I had been raised to always open doors, but as with the car door situation, I got tired of encountering the negative reactions. I suppose the instinct to help women is still there, but it is now easily quelled by experience and reason. The change that Dr. Helen is noting is reactive behavior; don't blame the young men, blame the women who, instead of simply saying "thank you" or even just smiling in response to having a door opened for them, sniff haughtily or sneer in contempt instead.

So, my answer to Dr. Helen is that whereas it was once the social norm for men to open doors for women, that is no longer the case and it will not be the case again until men and women finally reject equalitarianism. Unfortunately, we will probably have to go through a cleansing period of behavioral barbarism before society can be expected to return to some of its civilized practices.

Personally, I think bringing back dueling wouldn't be the worst idea.

Labels:

110 Comments:

Anonymous jack August 09, 2012 11:21 AM  

Living here in the rural South, this is not a lost art. Particularly where the object is an older woman or little kids. I do notice that some of the teen type females seem a little surprised even here.

Ah, for a gentler time. Or, at least, another time.

Anonymous Starbuck August 09, 2012 11:27 AM  

I also hold open a door for pretty much anyone, I always get a smile and/or thank you. I haven't run into these snooty women who get offended by it. Also, I have had ladies hold open a door when they get to it first as well. I always reply with a smile and thank you. I have heard a lot of men complain about some women getting nasty when they are just being hospitable or courteous. But where I live now, I don't see as much as the femininazis spouting off.

If they do start in, I feel sorry for the younger men. They will become rather rude to women.

Anonymous Josh August 09, 2012 11:29 AM  

I open doors for everyone, and, given that I live in god's country, everyone always says "thank you".

Can't speak to the manners up inthe hell hole of yankeedom...

Anonymous Athor Pel August 09, 2012 11:32 AM  

Bring back dueling while keeping the current equalitarian rule-set in place and forbid the appointment of a champion to take the place of the challenged person.

Blogger Professor Hale August 09, 2012 11:36 AM  

I hold doors for everyone and it annoys me when I see others sliding through oblivious of other people behind them who will be using the same door. This is almost always black women.

I especially hold car doors because women let them swing into the neighboring cars (bad) and often do not attempt to control the doors from gusts of wind and can be injured by doors that close too quickly (also bad). I take care of that whenever I can. Not being chivalrous, just practical and polite.

Anonymous Roundtine August 09, 2012 11:41 AM  

Can't speak to the manners up inthe hell hole of yankeedom...

I knew a guy who opened a door for a woman carrying a stack of books at UMASS. She gave him some feminist line and he let the door slam on her. He had some kind of PC hearing a few days later.

Anonymous Clay August 09, 2012 11:44 AM  

I'll open doors for anyone.

I'll also let people out in traffic...unless they're black. That's because they never signal with a "thanks" gesture.

Anonymous The Gray Man August 09, 2012 11:51 AM  

I have stopped holding the door open for any sub-30 year old female that I find attractive that I don't know very well or that doesn't say thank you if I have done it in the past.

Blogger Spacebunny August 09, 2012 11:52 AM  

If only it were just a haughty sniff or sneer - it's not unheard of to get lectured to for doing it.

Anonymous Orion August 09, 2012 12:05 PM  

I've no seen the animosity mentioned above in the suburban areas of the Midwest or smaller cities. My wife used to state to be a gentleman I should walk behind her, but I let her know that I am not a servant to follow behind then rush past to open a door.

Blogger SarahsDaughter August 09, 2012 12:07 PM  

Just this morning a teenage black boy opened the door and held it for me. I hope my warm smile and appreciative "thank you" stays in his memory if he should ever receive a negative reaction to it.

Anonymous ivvenalis August 09, 2012 12:16 PM  

I'll open a door for about anybody. I was taught to open car doors for girls/women but the reaction is so uniformly awkward/negative that I stopped doing it a long time ago.

Anonymous Noah B. August 09, 2012 12:16 PM  

I open doors for people. I've never gotten anything resembling a lecture for doing it, but what I do find aggravating is when someone is so oblivious (preoccupied with a critical Facebook update on their iPhone, for example) that they don't even realize that someone is holding the door for them, and they just stand in the doorway. In those circumstances, etiquette demands that one let go of the door without warning.

Anonymous JCclimber August 09, 2012 12:26 PM  

Bringing back dueling would not go amiss. Provided it is the challenged party's prerogative to choose weapons.

Anonymous Ras Al Ghul August 09, 2012 12:27 PM  

dueling would be good coupled with a "They had it coming legal defense" (which women already get but men don't) and society would be better.

Anonymous JCclimber August 09, 2012 12:31 PM  

I also am guilty of getting a tiny pleasure out of not doing the expected bowing and scraping before the hallowed presence of the attractive young woman. Best done with raised eyebrows or a small smirk.

Unless it is at my work, where the entitled princesses have all the b!tches in HR behind them, and in those cases you just have to be more subtle. The funny thing is that as the princesses get to know you better, and realize you never back down to them or pedestalize them, their attitude (toward you only) shifts.

Blogger Cloud William August 09, 2012 12:43 PM  

I open and hold doors for most women. I also do so frequently for men who are immediately following me into a building and have some impediment preventing them from opening for themselves (e.g., carrying something in both hands).

I find that invariably performing this service for women gives me a reasonably reliable indicator of character, and I can respond appropriately:

- Lecturers can be treated as useful idiots, and ignored
- Haughty sniffs can be regarded with contempt
- Entitlement attitudes can be avoided
- Genuine appreciation can be returned

My wife was frankly astonished at this kindness when we were dating, and to this day remains in the seat until I open her door (even if she's driving). My two daughters expected this behavior from their boyfriends (now husbands), and both married men of good character.

Door-handling is not an infalible indicator of character, either of the giver or the recipient. It is, however, a fairly good starting point for evaluation.

Anonymous Stickwick August 09, 2012 12:46 PM  

Though I am a woman, I tend to hold the door if I get to it first and will hold it for men or women....

Likewise. The only people who let the door close in my face are other women -- probably the same women who are so distracted they almost run me down in the parking lot. I dunno if it's just Texas or what, but men are uniformly polite down here, even the really young ones, and it's wonderful. When a little boy makes a big effort to open the door for me, I give him a big smile and thank you.

My husband holds the car door for me every time. One of his liberal friends got on my case about it, until I mentioned all of the things I do for hubby (who hasn't washed a dish or an article of clothing since the day we got married). Then his friend started to think it was a pretty nice trade-off.

Anonymous The One August 09, 2012 12:46 PM  

Young men will continue to hold the door for women with fine asses. As the % of obese American women raises, their will be less door holding and getting through doors for that matter

Anonymous Anonymous August 09, 2012 12:47 PM  

The only time a man should walk behind a woman is if the two are walking abreast each other, and the path narrows (other pedestrians, obstruction.) The man gestures the woman forward, passes the obstruction, then resumes walking alongside her. It is rude to walk behind a woman, because then it gives the appearance we're just staring at dat ass. Which we are. But that's rude, and we shouldn't.

Anonymous Stingray August 09, 2012 12:50 PM  

The change that Dr. Helen is noting is reactive behavior; don't blame the young men, blame the women who, instead of simply saying "thank you" or even just smiling in response to having a door opened for them, sniff haughtily or sneer in contempt instead.

Thank you so much for saying this. I have noticed more and more women noticing that men are not reacting the way they wish (which I think is a good thing) and then blaming men for it. Very often they are not being rude or mean about it, rather simply trying to figure out what is happening. Ever . . . so . . . slowly women are starting to realize that this is not something that men should be blamed for. It is men's natural reaction to how they have been and are being treated. Women are not behaving like women so men are not treating them so. If only solipsism didn't make it so hard for us to see this.

Anonymous Stingray August 09, 2012 12:51 PM  

Which we are. But that's rude, and we shouldn't.

Ahhh, but we want you to, even when we say we don't.

Anonymous Salt August 09, 2012 12:56 PM  

If only it were just a haughty sniff or sneer - it's not unheard of to get lectured to for doing it.

Absolutely. The lesbian FedEx driver gave us hell for opening the door for her. Didn't matter that she was carrying a load.

Anonymous Curlytop August 09, 2012 12:56 PM  

Men have never hesitated to open doors for me, but then I appreciated the chivalry and always reciprocated the gesture with not only a smile and thank-you, but also reaching over and opening their car door. After over a decade with my Husband, I still do it, and fetch his beer, etc.

Kindness begets kindness. Bitchiness begets...

Your response to Dr. Helen is spot on, but frankly her little lament and wistful longing for those simple graces are lost on me. Unless she was in the lone party screaming at the top of their lungs fighting off that feminist garbage, then she has no room to whine now about it. As the hamster wheel turns, I know. *sigh*

Anonymous Tico August 09, 2012 12:59 PM  

...sniff haughtily or sneer in contempt instead.

I have never encountered this and I hold the door for just about everyone. I suspect that the sneering and sniffing my either just be happening in your head or if not, my be due to your demeanor.

Blogger James Dixon August 09, 2012 1:01 PM  

> If only it were just a haughty sniff or sneer - it's not unheard of to get lectured to for doing it.

It's not unheard of to get slapped for trying to lecture someone. :)

Anonymous Other Josh August 09, 2012 1:02 PM  

As a Christian, holding the door has nothing to do with gender, age, or attitude of the person walking towards the door - it has everything to do with a simple gesture of kindess of love that pleases the heart of God.

Anonymous FUBAR Nation (Ben) August 09, 2012 1:05 PM  

What if a door opened and no one was there?
Would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs?
If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it does it make a sound?

Anonymous Athor Pel August 09, 2012 1:09 PM  

If you look for evidence of a changing male attitude towards women you will see it.

I recently watched the reaction of the engineers responsible for the latest Mars rover as it landed. They were cheering and hugging and generally jumping around in elation. In watching them I would see these big full-embrace 2 and 3 second hugs every so often, between guys. Those guys were seriously happy. I then started seeing the women in the room. In the time I watched I saw two male/female hugs. One was a lot like what the men were doing. The other was a pathetic side hug of very short duration.

Where you work, would you hug the women you work with if a similar situation came up? I would guess that you wouldn't. I know I wouldn't.
In fact I avoid even incidental touching of women at work.

In the modern work environment it almost seems like guys avoid the girls if they can get away with it. That's the world we live in and it is sad.

How often do you guys get on elevators when it's just you and a woman? Do you give it a second thought and then take the next one or do you go ahead and get on the elevator with the strange woman?

Blogger Giraffe August 09, 2012 1:25 PM  

I usually hold the door to a building. We aren't so modern out here in sticks. I've never opened a car door, never seen it done. I guess our women may have the skills to open their own car door.

Obviously this custom is due to it being rather difficult to open a door that is heavy or has an automatic closer. Nowadays a car door is pretty easy to open, I would think this was not always the case.

Anonymous Beaver Cleaver August 09, 2012 1:26 PM  

Author sounds like a girly-man.

Blogger Hamilton August 09, 2012 1:30 PM  

The overwhelming majority of the time I hold open doors I recieve a "thanks" or some sort of gesture or look of appreciation. Of course, I too live in the South and don't have to deal with the North's wreched refuse.

Elevators and trains on the other hand...kids these days just bum-rush to get on before anyone can get off. That usually gets a loud comment from me.

Anonymous TLM August 09, 2012 1:37 PM  

Personally, I think bringing back dueling wouldn't be the worst idea......

Amen. In the past 2 years I've had to deal with 2 lawsuits due to a failed business venture. The whole process is mind-numbingly slow & drawn out, wasteful, frivolous, and that doesn't even begin to explain what it's like dealing with the local govt court workers, clerks, and lawyers. Me thinks if Hamilton would have killed Burr, dueling may have been an acceptable way of settling disputes today.

Anonymous Azimus August 09, 2012 1:39 PM  

I was raised that the man takes the more difficult/dirty/dangerous position regardless of what compass point it comes from. One day I was driving down a country road behind a line of bicyclists who all promptly slid to the shoulder except the rear cyclist, who obliviously continued to ride in the middle of the lane. I got annoyed, but it wasn't until after I passed a few seconds later that I realized the rear cyclist was the father of a family of 5, and he was using his position in the road to protect his wife and children with his body. I learned a nice lesson about fatherhood on that road and have copied it ever since.

Anonymous VD August 09, 2012 1:40 PM  

How often do you guys get on elevators when it's just you and a woman? Do you give it a second thought and then take the next one or do you go ahead and get on the elevator with the strange woman?

Get on and smile as if the voices in your head are giving orders.

Anonymous Goober Johnson August 09, 2012 1:59 PM  

Me thinks if Hamilton would have killed Burr, dueling may have been an acceptable way of settling disputes today.

How about just a plain old take-it-outside-fight to settle things? 100 years ago boxing was the most popular sport and a great way to settle petty differences.

Now soccer is the most popular sport, and if you punch a guy in the nose you can have your children taken away from you.

Anonymous realmatt August 09, 2012 2:12 PM  

I never get a thank you from young girls when I hold the door after I walk through and notice they're behind me so I never do. Not that you should do things in hopes for a thank you, but it's always intentionally not given and therefor malicious.

Men, women with families, older women, women over 25 always get the door held because they always say thank you. Small children ALWAYS say thank you, which only reinforced my belief that the teen-25 yr old girls are intentionally not saying thank you and intentionally not holding the door for other people.

The only males who don't say thank you are usually thugs so I don't bother. Instead I hope for an altercation when I let the door swing in their faces but it hasn't happened yet, to my great disappointment.

Blogger James Dixon August 09, 2012 2:16 PM  

> Get on and smile as if the voices in your head are giving orders.

Some comedian had a great routine where he would talk about the sound the elevator cable would make just before it broke. :)

Anonymous Angel August 09, 2012 2:16 PM  

I have found that men in their 20s will either not hold the door at all or will purposely shut it on me.
When I was 9 months pregnant and carrying a very sick, young child into the pediatricians office I had this happen in a spectacular fashion. The young man behind me huffed in impatience, walked around me and pulled the door open very hard and then slammed it shut behind him in my face as I was setting my little one down so I could open the door (I was carrying her with both arms). This was the one and only time my Husband was unable to accompany me that it happened, as it was an emergency.

I hold doors for everyone, I teach my children to do so. My Husband and Son hold the door for my daughters and I. If, by chance a young man (usually a teenager or younger) or older man (at least 35 or older) holds the door for us I make a point of telling my children loudly "Tell the Gentleman thank you!" and they do. We say thank you to anyone who holds the door. I do not allow older women to hold it for us out of respect for their age. They are usually shocked that I do that.

I could care less what is the norm in society. I am well aware of it and fighting it with every blood cell in my body. I purposely act this way to teach my children how it should be and how they should both treat others and what they should look for in mates.

Anonymous Angel August 09, 2012 2:23 PM  

@ Athor Pel

I don't get the whole hugging thing either. I am in my early 30s and cannot remember a time my Father hugged a single person he worked with. Nor my Mother. They both would have considered it very indecent. I can only remember my Father hugging his Brothers in greeting and that was more of a tackle.

A few years ago I had an emergency that landed in me in the ER in the middle of the night. I watched all of the people at the nurses station. Male and Female were giving each other should massages, several had wedding rings on. I was shocked. Seriously, when did the workplace turn into highschool.

I shake hands unless it is family or a very close friend. Good Grief! My own Brother does the sideways hug to me, always has LOL.

Anonymous Angel August 09, 2012 2:23 PM  

that should be "shoulder" sorry :)

Anonymous Athor Pel August 09, 2012 2:35 PM  

" VD August 09, 2012 1:40 PM

How often do you guys get on elevators when it's just you and a woman?
...
Get on and smile as if the voices in your head are giving orders.
"



I cracked up. But what is really funny is that I've done this very thing.

The biggest grins I give are reserved for when the elevator makes loud unexpected noises or when I stand on my toes and then let my body weight fall onto my heels to make the elevator cables stretch like a rubber band. If you time it with the elevator arrival at a new floor they don't even know it was you. They just think the elevator is malfunctioning. Some people are really easy to spook.

Blogger Aviator4 August 09, 2012 2:37 PM  

I typically open doors for women, but unlike most I'll particularly do so if they look like the typical liberal or feminist type, with a warm, direct smile to boot. I do it because I thoroughly enjoy watching them approach uncomfortably, in which they're obviously squirming at the situation with no clue how to handle the encounter. You can almost see their hamster wheel spinning as what they should say or do; many times they almost slow to a stop as they contemplate turning around and changing directions as a means of escaping what must be the longest 3-10 seconds of their life.

In the end, most often they quietly thank me (more like a faint whisper) with their heads down and a hint of a smile on their face. A select few will defiantly stare back and won't acknowledge the situation at hand, but in either case its obvious they are quite flustered and will probably spend a fair amount of the remainder of the day contemplating the encounter (while sipping on soy chocolate milk along with a bag of gluten free rice chips from Whole Foods).

Blogger Scott August 09, 2012 2:41 PM  

I open doors or at least do the 1-2 second "hold the door" for everybody. It's just how I was raised and I haven't gone out of my way to kick the habit. I don't do car doors or anything like that. Take this for its anecdotal worth but I notice men take a glance back when they go through doors and do the hold the door a lot more than women. Most women seem to squeeze through the door like there isn't a chance in the world there might be somebody behind them.

Anonymous Athor Pel August 09, 2012 2:44 PM  

Angel,
What follows is an educated guess on my part.

People that work in ER's have their hands on people all day long. It's part of their job. A lot of what we assume to be "normal" is cultural. That stuff gets stripped away when you see death on a regular basis. Sh1t gets real, real fast.

People that work in ER's get spiritually gut punched on a regular basis. Basic human kindness expressed through contact is one of many ways they deal with it. They need it to stay sane.

Anonymous Athor Pel August 09, 2012 3:02 PM  

This door opening thing is kind of a pet peeve of mine but not for the reasons being discussed here. For me it's about the timing. People that hold open doors when they are, to my estimation, too far in front of me. By doing this they force polite reciprocation. It means I must speed up in order to prevent them from having to wait too long for me to get to the door.

One, two, three steps away, sure, hold the door open for that person. You're not imposing on that person. But if they're ten steps away, you just made that person run so they wouldn't make you wait there holding the door open. It is at that point that holding the door stops being polite and starts being passive aggressive. The door opener as self righteous victim of polite society.

It just really annoys me.

It's like some kind of politeness one-upmanship. Get stuffed you beta dork. Stop sucking up and get a sense of proper proportion.

Anonymous Mike M. August 09, 2012 3:06 PM  

You know, if we bring back duelling, being pretty won't be Alpha. Being a good shot with a pistol will be VERY Alpha.

Sounds good to me. :-)

Anonymous WaterBoy August 09, 2012 3:08 PM  

"I always get a smile and/or thank you."
"everyone always says "thank you"
"I hope my warm smile and appreciative "thank you" stays in his memory"
"I give him a big smile and thank you."
"I appreciated the chivalry and always reciprocated the gesture with not only a smile and thank-you, but also reaching over and opening their car door"
"The overwhelming majority of the time I hold open doors I recieve a "thanks" or some sort of gesture or look of appreciation."
"Men, women with families, older women, women over 25 always get the door held because they always say thank you. Small children ALWAYS say thank you"
"I make a point of telling my children loudly "Tell the Gentleman thank you!" and they do. We say thank you to anyone who holds the door"
----------------
All of the above QFT.

Ladies*, a smile and a simple "thank you" reinforces and perpetuates this behavior. It has a bleedover effect to others who are within range, especially children.

Men, hold the door and return the smile, even if one wasn't proffered. Same reason.

Don't let the feminists win and change this social norm. To give in and say, "Fine, have it your way" is to admit defeat.

* I suspect that practically all of the female regulars here already do this. But you never know who might be lurking.

Anonymous T14 August 09, 2012 3:08 PM  

I'm far more familiar with elevator entering. Women first, followed by lower status men, with the highest status male entering (or leaving) last. The fun begins when two men refuse to enter the elevator in a painfully silly show of status.

And given their corpulence, you'd think Southerners would have difficulty holding doors for one another.

Blogger SarahsDaughter August 09, 2012 3:11 PM  

Azimus, the father/bicyclist story literally made me tear up...I'm such a mush. My husband would do that when we lived in Korea and had to walk everywhere. Even on the sidewalk pedestrians are not safe from those crazy drivers.

Anonymous NewAnubis August 09, 2012 3:14 PM  

Ipush in a chair for my mom. I push in a chair for my beau. As to the latter, the first time it occurs she is bewildered often cranking around to look at me quizzically. What I have found is that she does not know the process—sit, lift and reposition distance, sit again. Obviously the chair scoot comes in the middle. Who is responsible for this ignorance of courtesy? Her dad, for not showing her. Her mom, for not showing her. Prior boyfriends, for not doing it. Herself.
Not too surprised to get ‘pay it forward’ grief from other guys at the table whose gals condemn their lack of manners. Tough. When something is right, it’s right all the way around.

On an interesting note, I was asked once ‘not’ to do that upon first taking a date to a restaurant. I calmly said “have anything you like” while I turned, left the restaurant, and drove home.

Blogger A August 09, 2012 3:21 PM  

I remember a time in college when I got to a door and a girl was behind me, and no one else was around within 30 feet, just her, and I held the door for her and she completely ignored me and used the other door (it was at a Christian college too, she wasn't even that attractive I was just being nice). Last time I ever held a door for a woman, not ever going to go through that kind of sheepishness again.

Blogger A August 09, 2012 3:22 PM  

BTW I should mention it was in the South as well, seeing as how Southerners are apt to snowflake.

Anonymous Vidad August 09, 2012 3:28 PM  

"I was asked once ‘not’ to do that upon first taking a date to a restaurant. I calmly said “have anything you like” while I turned, left the restaurant, and drove home."

Perfect response.

Anonymous Curlytop August 09, 2012 3:29 PM  

@Sarah'sDaughter,

Me too. It reminds me of my father and how my husband treats us. :-) My father used to ALWAYS sleep on the side of the bed closest to the door. My mother said he never wavered even on vacation. There is truly nothing sexier than a man who is really the head of his home. :-)

Anonymous duckman August 09, 2012 3:45 PM  

I used to open car doors for women, but I don't anymore because I got tired of feeling stupid every time I went to the other side of the car only to stand there uselessly as the woman, already in the car, closed the door herself.

Color me confused.

Anonymous Jimmy August 09, 2012 3:46 PM  

I don't understand why we have to repeatedly ask the question that was answered a long time ago. NO. HELL NO. We do not open doors for women!!!

As a courtesy, I will open a door for myself, and if a person is immediately behind me, sometimes I'll let them in first, but usually, I'll go first and prop the door for them temporarily as a gesture of goodwill. There is no particular recognition of the person's gender. I don't do chivalry. That was beaten out from me a long time ago.

As for the car door, I'll open and close the door for old people that are slower on average. Afterall, I do have places to go. I'll never do it for a women unless I know them and they must have a ton to carry for me to be concerned about their ability to do it themselves.

Chivalry is dead. It won't come back.

Anonymous Beau August 09, 2012 3:50 PM  

Daughter, "Daddy, if I date a guy who doesn't know how to walk a lady on his arm, would you show him how?"

Me, "Sure thing sweetheart." (And in more feisty moments with a gleam in my eye and rapacious smile I add, "He'll learn - or die."

Occasionally my wife and I will teach young men how to seat ladies at a dinner table. We also teach the gals to not be dead weights while being attended. These youngsters have expressed relief at learning poise for any social situation. Etiquette is the art of civilization.

Anonymous WaterBoy August 09, 2012 3:59 PM  

duckman: "Color me confused."

Guy drives up to where girl is waiting. Guy puts car in park, gets out of car, hustles around to the other side to get her door. Meanwhile, girl opens her own door, gets in, and closes it as the guy arrives.

Anonymous Lysander Spooner August 09, 2012 4:03 PM  

I have always been in favor of duels. I challenged my ex-wife's attorney, but he declined stating it was illegal. I would have shot the bastard in the face with my .45

Regarding elevators, I wait for the next one, don't ever be alone with women in the work environment.

I don't open doors for women anymore.

Anonymous Curlytop August 09, 2012 4:19 PM  

Beau,
You are the very picture of a Godly leader! Blessings brother.

As for this: "We also teach the gals to not be dead weights while being attended. "

Amen! There is nothing worse than a petulant, prissy woman!

Anonymous VD August 09, 2012 4:34 PM  

Don't let the feminists win and change this social norm. To give in and say, "Fine, have it your way" is to admit defeat.

Yeah, you don't get how this works. The feminists want you to hold the door so they can get offended. The more men let women take a glass pane to the face, the less they find feminism appealing.

The roof has already collapsed. The ruins have to be cleared before they can be rebuilt.

OpenID bluestatetourist August 09, 2012 4:37 PM  

I think the manner in which you hold a door has a noticeable effect. If you're simply being civilized and not trying to ingratiate yourself to a stranger, the gesture is well received. I find I'm thanked more often than not, and in equal measure by both sexes. Most seem to be surprised to some extent as hardly anyone makes the effort anymore.

With regards to dueling, at a minimum, acceptance of one man asking another to step outside would increase civility in public notably. The number of men and women* I cross paths with that are rude and antagonistic towards others in public is far too high. Perhaps I should spend more time around blue collar folks who don't hold that whomever starts a physical confrontation is the uncivilized party regardless of how antagonistic the other party has been, often encouraged by the assumption that no one will ask them to step outside regardless of how rude and antisocial they've been behaving.

*The taboo about men hitting women has often encouraged low class women to take antagonism to heights no man would towards another man, so perhaps it would not help in this case.

Anonymous Josh August 09, 2012 4:40 PM  

So, when they broke through the glass ceiling, all they really did was collapse the roof?

Anonymous Curlytop August 09, 2012 4:44 PM  

@Waterboy

"Drives up to where woman is waiting?"

That's completely foreign to me. With this scenario, why are you surprised by the outcome? If you can't be bothered to get out of your car, and she's stupid enough to go out with you, neither one of you should expect class or manners.

In proper fashion, no gentleman roars up to the house and waits for her to come out? No lady allows a guy to pull up with her standing on the curb like some Hanoi whore—a term my father used once when some dumb boy whose father hadn't bred him right, tried that with my sister at 16. Guy literally pulled into the driveway and honked the horn. He was met in the driveway by my father. Not a pretty sight, but it taught me a lot at 12 as I was eavesdropping by the window. ;-)

The car door thing usually occurs when both are walking to the car together or some sort of valet situation. Having said that, when a guy escorted me to his car, I always reciprocated by reaching over to unlock his door or pull the handle. Times have changed on that one given automatic locks, but hell the gal can turn her body towards her date and smile appreciatively instead of acting entitled.

Anonymous Curlytop August 09, 2012 4:47 PM  

"*The taboo about men hitting women has often encouraged low class women to take antagonism to heights no man would towards another man, so perhaps it would not help in this case."

Heh, my father used to say no man hits a LADY. ;-) I overheard Hubby make the same statement awhile back to our offspring. It's the whole square/rectangle rule: all ladies are women, but not all women are ladies.

Anonymous FP August 09, 2012 4:52 PM  

Athor: "How often do you guys get on elevators when it's just you and a woman? Do you give it a second thought and then take the next one or do you go ahead and get on the elevator with the strange woman?"

I don't think anything of it usually. With elevators I'm usually grumpy because people getting off take their sweet time, or idiots who block the path for people exiting an elevator. I get tired of having to push past people to get out of the elevator.

On door holding, I'd guess that 90% of the people who never say thanks are women. Usually if its a single woman I won't hold the door for them, they wanted equality, they got it.

OpenID bluestatetourist August 09, 2012 5:00 PM  

@Curlytop

Well, despite articles penned by the prestige press in the 1980s about athletic prowess being a gender construct (fooled by the narrowing gap in times due to all the testosterone with which all the female athletes behind the Iron Curtain were shot up), there are very real differences in bone density, size and muscle mass between men and women on the whole.

The rate of serious injury is higher among women than men when comparing the same sports (the rate of concussions in boys versus girls high school soccer provides an excellent example).

It's rightly frowned upon because it really is apples to oranges.

Anonymous WaterBoy August 09, 2012 5:13 PM  

Curlytop: "That's completely foreign to me."

Really? You can't possibly imagine a time when the guy and girl are separate, and the guy goes to pick up the girl, and she's waiting outside already (restaurant, theater, library, mall, etc.)?

I will always drive up to the door of the venue of a formal function to let my wife out before driving around to find a parking spot, then afterward going and getting the car myself before picking her up at the door. Especially when she's wearing high heels. And doing so involves getting out to open her door, just like I explained.

"With this scenario, why are you surprised by the outcome?"

I'm not -- I was explaining to the confused duckman how such a scenario could come about.

"If you can't be bothered to get out of your car"

That was the whole point -- Vox did get out of the car to get the door.

I'm beginning to suspect you didn't really follow the flow of posts as carefully as you should have, and just reacted superficially to the first thought that came to mind....

"In proper fashion, no gentleman roars up to the house and waits for her to come out?"

Whoever said anything about a house specifically?

Again, there are numerous situations where a woman could be waiting for a ride to arrive that do not involve being inside a house. I agree that if it is inside her home, then the young man should park the car and go to the house...but that isn't the only scenario in play, here.

Anonymous Curlytop August 09, 2012 5:17 PM  

Waterboy,
That's why I said "VALET" situation...in which case, all your examples you just outlined apply to that including Vox's.

Anonymous ENthePeasant August 09, 2012 5:20 PM  

I always hold open doors and such for everyone. I was raised to be polite and since I look like a cross between a bridge troll and mountain gorilla everyone seems to be grateful... except one group... that would be Germans. As soon as they get out of their late teens it seems to be a German point of status with them to sneer at anyone who's polite. With Germans its always best to hold open the door, and as there sneering faces pass by put your boot on their ass and push.

Anonymous WaterBoy August 09, 2012 5:20 PM  

VD: "Yeah, you don't get how this works. The feminists want you to hold the door so they can get offended. The more men let women take a glass pane to the face, the less they find feminism appealing."

And two wrongs make a right. I got it.

VD: "The roof has already collapsed. The ruins have to be cleared before they can be rebuilt."

I disagree, at least on this aspect. The plethora of comments I quoted show that people still know how to be polite, the whiny minority notwithstanding. Your tactic spreads the disease, mine -- however futile -- tries to cure it. To each their own...we all have our own lines in the sand and fight our battles on different fronts.

Anonymous Curlytop August 09, 2012 5:23 PM  

Agh, hit the Publish, not Preview botton and I can't edit....

Anyway, Mea Culpa, Waterboy, if I didn't read carefully enough to your first post. :-)

Anonymous Jimmy August 09, 2012 5:25 PM  

"And two wrongs make a right. I got it."

Turning lemons into lemonade is the better comparison.

I don't get it. If women don't want the door to be opened for them, why do you insist? It's as if the guy is insisting they are right. Even in a relationship, the women is always right.

Can we just let her have it her way? It is the custom.

Anonymous WaterBoy August 09, 2012 5:27 PM  

Curlytop: "That's why I said "VALET" situation"

Precisely the opposite, madam. In a valet situation, the gentleman isn't driving the car up to the door -- the valet is. The gentleman would already be accompanying the lady, and open her door for her when the car arrived, sans doorman.

Furthermore, if it was clear to you that such a situation could exist, then it isn't exactly "completely foreign" to you as you claimed, is it?

Words have meaning.

Anonymous JI August 09, 2012 5:28 PM  

Athor Pell Wrote:
"I recently watched the reaction of the engineers responsible for the latest Mars rover as it landed. They were cheering and hugging and generally jumping around in elation. In watching them I would see these big full-embrace 2 and 3 second hugs every so often, between guys. Those guys were seriously happy. I then started seeing the women in the room. In the time I watched I saw two male/female hugs. One was a lot like what the men were doing. The other was a pathetic side hug of very short duration."

I noticed that, too, when I watched the streaming video of the Curiosity landing.

"Where you work, would you hug the women you work with if a similar situation came up? I would guess that you wouldn't. I know I wouldn't.
In fact I avoid even incidental touching of women at work."

If I have to work in an office alone with a woman who is under 40, I request a male or older-female escort. Never have had any kinds of problems at work or elsewhere but have seen other men who have been victims.

Anonymous WaterBoy August 09, 2012 5:38 PM  

Jimmy: "I don't get it. If women don't want the door to be opened for them, why do you insist?"

According to Vox, they do want me to open it for them. How they choose to react is their burden, not mine.

Even if they don't personally want me to, it isn't for them individually that I do so. It is for the benefit of society at large. You can't please everyone, but the women who do appreciate it make it worthwhile.

I might be biased on the issue, however, as I have not once ever received the type of negative reaction apparently experienced by so many men.

Anonymous realmatt August 09, 2012 5:41 PM  

And two wrongs make a right. I got it.

No you don't "got it", because it isn't "wrong" to not hold the door for someone and there's no reason to do something nice for someone who hasn't earned it. We no longer live in an era where it was safe to assume most of the women you see are ladies so it isn't safe to assume they deserve any of your special treatment. These stupid little whores and their wigger boyfriends are so worthless they can't even show the smallest amount of appreciation after you do something like hold the door for the person 5 feet behind you.

I'd like to take this time to mention line cutting when waiting for buses. I am going to commit many murders very soon.

That will be all.

Anonymous WaterBoy August 09, 2012 5:42 PM  

Curlytop: "Anyway, Mea Culpa, Waterboy, if I didn't read carefully enough to your first post. :-)"

No problem. I have done so often enough in the past, myself. :)

Anonymous WaterBoy August 09, 2012 5:55 PM  

realmatt: "No you don't "got it", because it isn't "wrong" to not hold the door for someone and there's no reason to do something nice for someone who hasn't earned it."

I sure wish I had your powers of Psychic Discernment, so I could tell which of those young ladies whom I have never met before are worth such an exhaustive effort I have to put forth to hold the door open a few seconds longer.

Please let me know when you market it -- I prefer pill or liquid form to injection, if at all possible.

It doesn't matter to me how many of them are "worth it" -- most drivers aren't worth me slowing down or moving over to let onto the freeway from the on ramp, either. But knowing that there are those who still know how to give a wave of thanks, it makes it worthwhile to do it for everyone. Even the assholes.

Anonymous Idle Spectator, Hero Feminist August 09, 2012 6:04 PM  

This is funny.

A girl just bitched me out the other day about not opening her car door. I also made her buy her own drinks too.

Still got laid.



She sure showed me.

Anonymous The CronoLink August 09, 2012 6:16 PM  

Just because you do it, that doesn't make it worthwhile for everyone. This isn't about you, Waterboy.

Anonymous WaterBoy August 09, 2012 6:30 PM  

Never said it was. I expressed my opinion and gave an explanation to someone who was confused. Everything else has been responding to those who responded to me.

It's call dialogue. Feel free to ignore it.

Oops, I did it again.

Anonymous Catherine August 09, 2012 6:46 PM  

I try to do my part by thanking everyone who holds a door open for me.

It took some work to get my husband to start opening car doors (he wasn't raised to do it), but sitting there patiently in the car the first couple of times until he remembered was worth the effort.

I wouldn't expect him to do it for other young women, though. It's just not the thing anymore, unfortunately.

Anonymous Anonymous August 09, 2012 7:29 PM  

Imagine August in Houston, Texas. Now, imagine the gent opening the car's door for the lady to get in. The gent closes the door and begins to walk to the other side of the car, remembering to walk around the front of the car. All of the sudden, blue lights are flashing, rescue team arrives. The gent is arrested for endangering the life of another citizen and the lady is treated for heat stroke. Some things gotta yield to practicalities. JaimeInTexas

Anonymous Outlaw X August 09, 2012 8:01 PM  

Vox,since my surgery, at least in TX if you are walking with a walking stick everybody opens the door for you, even 10 year old girls. They feel good after doing it too and I like that fact.

Opportunities for true kindness seem to be most frequently taken.

Anonymous zen0 August 09, 2012 9:35 PM  

I held a door open for an older black woman in Seattle once, and she said thanky0u, but in a confused and conflicted kind of way.

Blogger Andrew Cordeaux August 09, 2012 9:42 PM  

I personally can't wait for the "cleansing period of behavioral barbarism". Not holding doors is just the beginning...
And dueling to settle offenses will save so much money on legal expenses!

Blogger Andrew Cordeaux August 09, 2012 9:48 PM  

As to the relatee concern of burial expenses:
http://naturalburial.coop/

Anonymous The other skeptic August 09, 2012 10:58 PM  

Someone claims that med don't put women and children first on boats either

Anonymous The other skeptic August 09, 2012 11:00 PM  

That was "men don't put women and children ..."

Blogger IM2L844 August 09, 2012 11:24 PM  

Anytime abrupt changes to well established social conventions are forced on a society, their are always going to be unexpected deleterious consequences. It's difficult enough when traditions are overturned through a long and natural evolutionary process over many generations, but when you flip the script over the course of 40 or 50 years you should expect some serious blow-back. We see it again and again.

But, Mousie, thou art no thy lane
In proving foresight may be vain:
The best laid schemes o' mice an' men
Gang aft a-gley,
An' lea'e us nought but grief an' pain,
For promised joy.

Anonymous rycamor August 10, 2012 12:12 AM  

I'm trying to think back over the past 28 years of adult life, from attending university at age 18 to the present. I honestly don't think I've ever had a woman sneer or huff when I held a door. or waved her onto the elevator first. I wonder if women are less likely to berate a tall man for doing this.

Anonymous The Great Martini August 10, 2012 1:15 AM  

I think it depends on technique. If you hold the door open for women and men sort of as you are passing through and still in motion, but sufficiently enough for others to follow you through, perhaps by grasping the door themselves as they pass for others behind them, you won't cause the slightest social discomfiture. I've lived in some of the most liberal places on Earth, and I've never gotten the slightest bit of objection from it, men, women, boys, girls. So I'm slightly suspect of narratives of angry feminists lecturing someone for doing it.

BUT...

If your technique is to go through the door, then turn and stand attentively, like Rhett Butler or something, this technique can cause social unrest. Even as a male, having another man do that in this day and age is awkward. It kind of puts you in a submissive role, as if you aren't able to handle a swinging door. For women I can see how it might seem too familiar. Changing times means changing etiquette.

Blogger James Higham August 10, 2012 3:20 AM  

The attitude is everything in this. I'll allow a young girl to sit down if she's struggling with a bag and her attitude is good.

Anonymous Anonymous August 10, 2012 3:49 AM  

@ bluestatetourist: Teaching guys its never ok to hit women has led to women seeing themselves as bulletproof. Women then feel free to attack guys without any worries. Should the guy attempt to fight back the women can press charges. having worked in hotels I can tell you women are more violent and feral than guys.
If the law changed overnight and guys were allowed to hit any girl back who hit them women's behaviour would improve dramatically



If duelling were reinstated then that would be the end of PUAs...

Anonymous tiredofitall August 10, 2012 4:31 AM  

@Catherine

"It took some work to get my husband to start opening car doors (he wasn't raised to do it), but sitting there patiently in the car the first couple of times until he remembered was worth the effort."

No offense, but were it me I'd wonder if perhaps you were struck with sudden onset mental retardation. A grown able-bodied human who waits around in a car until someone else lets them out is not a real bell-ringer for intelligence.

And expecting another person to read your mind about what you want them to do rather than telling them is a hallmark of a low quality woman.

Blogger mmaier2112 August 10, 2012 6:43 AM  

"I'm trying to think back over the past 28 years of adult life, from attending university at age 18 to the present. I honestly don't think I've ever had a woman sneer or huff when I held a door. or waved her onto the elevator first. I wonder if women are less likely to berate a tall man for doing this."

I'll second this.

I DO have women let doors close in my face and many that never say thank you. MPAI and all.

And I have far more women let doors close on me than men.

Anonymous Brendan August 10, 2012 8:39 AM  

This most often comes up in the workplace, where we have a corporate culture of "ladies first".

It doesn't so much apply at the door -- that really only comes up at the front door, and there's usually quite a few people of both sexes going and out at the same time, with the general practice being to hold the door if the person behind you is within a few steps, regardless of their sex. It *does* very conspicuously apply at the elevators, however, where, as noted above, the "hierarchy of entry and exit" is: first the women, then the lower ranked men, then the highest ranked men. It's just done that way, because that is the corporate culture in this building. I'd say less than half of the women say thank you, probably because they know that this privilege of theirs is not personal, but a part of the building/corporate culture, so thanking an individual for essentially behaving according to that corporate culture seems superfluous.

Outside of the workplace, I will hold the door for women with children and older women, and also for most guys. I don't do it for single women (i.e., women without children in tow) under 60, or women with guys around them, pretty much ever unless it's unavoidable (i.e., someone directly behind you), in which case it will be a perfunctory "passing of the baton of the open door" rather than a holding the door open and passing through the door after she does.

Another life rule as a man: do not ever be alone with a woman behind closed doors in the workplace (and that includes elevators). I have never been personally burned by this one, but I have seen others get burned by it. It's a minefield, so be careful.

Anonymous Viking August 10, 2012 9:55 AM  

The problem with holding the door for older women is how old? women in their 60's now are in fact much of the problem. They are the first wave of baby boomer feminists and a person at 60 is usually still very mobile. I have seen a bit of attitude from these women as well so when we say we don't bother holding a door for a younger woman that seems to be women below the age of 70 or so. Rather depressing.

But normally I will do the hold the door briefly after passing though for pretty much anybody. More of a not letting it slam in their face thing so not really the same purposely opening a door for someone.

I will open the door for older people both men and women who are obviously slower and seem to need help. For older women it depends somewhat on how they dress. sometimes you can figure out an older woman's attitude from what she wears. Women that dress like women get treated like women. That also includes holding doors for Mennonite women and nuns in habit. Also women with children in tow but no man to be seen. At the very least women with children are serving society greatly.

Anonymous Stilicho August 10, 2012 9:56 AM  


Still got laid.


Of course you did. Feminists are easy lays. And when you meet the rare attractive one, just smirk and enjoy the ride.

Anonymous RC August 10, 2012 9:59 AM  

"Me thinks if Hamilton would have killed Burr, dueling may have been an acceptable way of settling disputes today."

Thankfully Burr didn't miss; President Hamilton would have been an utter disaster.

Blogger SarahsDaughter August 10, 2012 10:10 AM  

I agree with tiredofitall's criticism of Catherine's "It took some work to get my husband to start opening car doors (he wasn't raised to do it), but sitting there patiently in the car the first couple of times until he remembered was worth the effort."

I've heard this several times from women and have been left wondering how that really works out in the husband's head.

How do men really respond internally when the admonishment is coming from his wife?

If opening car doors has been established as the thing to do and something he's trying to implement, would he really not remember when she steps out of the car and closes the door and correct himself the next time?

Anonymous JMac August 10, 2012 10:47 AM  

We don't have cable TV so what we saw of the Olympics on NBC has made me dub the event as the women's Olympics. At the US July 4th celebrations in DC they showed a representative contingent of athletes going to the Olympics to represent the US, out of 15 athletes, 4 were male and two of those were in wheelchairs.

Many of the women at the Olympics couldn't be distinguished from males by looking at them. You might say point out their make-up, hair and jewelry, but then a lot of men want to look that way too.

All the "advanced learning" of the world seems to have de-evolved a lot of people to the point that they don't even know the fundamentals of life anymore.

Anonymous Ain August 10, 2012 11:25 AM  

"If they do start in, I feel sorry for the younger men. They will become rather rude to women."

That has never happened to me, but if it did, I would just explain to them that I do it for everybody when I reach the door first, and that there is nothing special about them or their attitude.

Anonymous Stickwick August 10, 2012 11:54 AM  

Vox,since my surgery, at least in TX if you are walking with a walking stick everybody opens the door for you, even 10 year old girls. They feel good after doing it too and I like that fact.

I live in TX, and had an older guy with a limp and a walking stick get angry with me for holding the door for him. I guess it insulted him. So, unless it's just a normal situation of not letting the door slam on someone immediately behind me, I don't bother to do that anymore unless the man looks extremely old and feeble.

Anonymous HH August 10, 2012 1:10 PM  

I try to never miss an opportunity to give kindness ...its faith and good works deal :) My mother used to say always try to be doing what you would want to be doing if Jesus was to return that moment...

I always hold the door - if the person (male or female) is rude about it.. that reflects on them, not me. I just smile.

Blogger Spacebunny August 10, 2012 1:47 PM  

Meh, I always hold the door for the person coming in behind me and will make a special effort for the elderly or infirm, but one time when I was coming into the wet classroom before the students got there, there was a woman in a wheelchair struggling a bit to get around some desks to the door - I started to help her a bit moving some desks that had been pushed out of rows and she snarled at me that she didn't need my help. So I pushed a couple of more desks in front of her, turned around and shut the door on her on my way out. If you are going to act like a complete bitch, expect to get treated like one.

Blogger mmaier2112 August 10, 2012 3:53 PM  

And THAT's why we love our Spacebunny!

Anonymous E. PERLINE August 11, 2012 12:30 AM  

Everyone can use a hand sometimes. Why make it a federal case?

If a woman sneers at my gesture (never happened yet) I wouldn't let it bother me one iota.

Nothing non-violent bothers us. We are men.

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