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Monday, August 27, 2012

With a bang

The Baltimore public schools began classes today and lots of that all-important socialization is already underway:
Baltimore County Police are investigating a confirmed shooting at Perry Hall High School. Police say a 17-year-old student has been shot and one suspect, a student, is in custody.... The shooting reportedly happened in the school cafeteria and the victim was shot in the back.
Public school is child abuse.

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220 Comments:

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Anonymous Lysander Spooner August 27, 2012 1:18 PM  

"Don't let your schooling get in the way of your education"

- S. Clemons

Anonymous Stickwick August 27, 2012 1:25 PM  

How else are kids going to learn to deal with getting shot in the back if they don't get exposed to it in school?

Anonymous Vitus_Bering August 27, 2012 1:29 PM  

Man, Vox knows everything about everything! "Public school is child abuse." Flaming sword. All that talk about money things that's over our heads. All the karate, kung-fu stuff he knows...
I feel so inadequate.
Is it okay to feel this way?
Am I normal?

Anonymous Josh August 27, 2012 1:38 PM  

Children should be shot at home, where they belong!

Btw, when is Conservative Teacher going to show up and start talking about how not all schools are like that?

Anonymous The One August 27, 2012 1:40 PM  

Perhaps you like to comment on the actual post Vitus. You know, perhaps observe that homeschoolers don't get shot in the back.

Anonymous RINO August 27, 2012 1:45 PM  

Can we play "guess the race"?

Anonymous George August 27, 2012 1:49 PM  

Public School might be child abuse if the kind of shootings you reference were common. But of course, they are not.

Anonymous Vitus_Bering August 27, 2012 1:49 PM  

The One - I'm just stirring the pot.

Anonymous JohnS August 27, 2012 1:51 PM  

Rino be raciss!

Anonymous scoobius dubious August 27, 2012 1:51 PM  

"Public school is child abuse."

Correction: public school for _white children_ is child abuse. Absent white children, as well they should be absent, public school is just, well, nature in action.

HAMM: What's happening?!
CLOV: Something is taking its course.
-- S. Beckett, Endgame

Anonymous Daniel August 27, 2012 1:59 PM  

10 bucks says the kid was aiming for the lunch lady, but he was taught to shoot based on the federally mandated standards.

Anonymous kh123 August 27, 2012 2:02 PM  

Nay, public education creates recidivist potential in all childrens, not just the underprivileged! Equal opportunity career placement. And give thought to those prison industry employees that need future jobs.

Anonymous scoobius dubious August 27, 2012 2:03 PM  

"Public School might be child abuse if the kind of shootings you reference were common. But of course, they are not."

Two problems with this reasoning.

1) Shootings are just the tip of the iceberg. The kind of taken-for-granted, everyday violence, much of it racial, that occurs in public schools need not include actual shootings to meet the definition of all kinds of pejoratives, child abuse in my opinion being one of the more mild ones. Let me introduce you to my easily-concealed little friend, the zip gun. Oh, and also to the fist of the preternaturally large, year-older left-back kid who knows how to use that, even if he's learned nothing else.

2) Imagine for a moment you're a child, in school. You're a kid, you don't know as much, either intellectually nor emotionally, as what an adult knows. Do you think it takes a shooting every day in your school to put you in fear for the entire year that you or your friends could be shot?* I think for most kids, one shooting will suffice -- and it doesn't have to even be in their own school, it could be in their cousin's school across town. "Forthwith spreads Rumour through Libya's great cities..."

* -- way back in the Jurassic, I went for a while to a grade school where a certain amount of notable violence (but not shootings! A simpler time!) was fairly common; and I can tell you that I spent a substantial amount of time worrying and fearing not just for my own safety, but for my siblings, cousins, and neighbors and friends who also went there, dispersed in various grades. It's quite an emotional burden for a ten-year-old. What a great way to get an education, right? Try it some time. Oops, too late for you to try, innit! Well all I can say is, Lucky you.

Blogger Joshua_D August 27, 2012 2:12 PM  

Criticizing public school is an excellent way to rev up the hamster wheels across a broad politico-gender spectrum. Let's get this crazy car on the road!

Blogger Bob Wallace August 27, 2012 2:12 PM  

Every school shooting has been in a public school, and most of them were in response to being bullied/humiliated. Kids learn how to seek revenge with a firearm in public schools.

Anonymous Mr. B.A.D. August 27, 2012 2:13 PM  

I smell vibrancy

Anonymous Hildebrandt August 27, 2012 2:13 PM  

Public schooling is a masonic invention. In its modern concept of a public school for children of every gender, race, age and intellect.
In Europe this masonic invention was allowed in the liberal republics of the late XIX and the begginnings of the XX century.

Blogger IM2L844 August 27, 2012 2:15 PM  

Can we play "guess the race"?

Well, we know they only shot one person. If it was a white guy, that would be an anomaly unless he was a cowboy or ate the brains afterward.

Anonymous scoobius dubious August 27, 2012 2:20 PM  

If it was a white guy, we wouldn't have to play "guess the race" -- his picture would already be on the cover of Newspeak, I mean Newsweek.

Anonymous Passinthrough August 27, 2012 2:29 PM  

Whenever we returned to school my uncle would say "bang goes the bell", but I'm pretty sure he wasn't refering to school shootings. I attended a red neck high school where pick ups had a gun rack in the back window and more than likely a .22 rifle in the rack. No one thought it unusual or cause for hysteria. When we had issues we butted heads. The adults in our lives acted like adults and expected us to behave as adults.

Anonymous Public/Private/Home School Dad August 27, 2012 2:49 PM  

"Public school is child abuse."
Nice.
Another rabid homeschool parent who thinks that what's best for their kid is what's best for every kid. Whatever.

I have taught in Christian school, public school and homeschool. My children have at various times done all of the above. I have seen graduates of all three educational approaches that have been outstanding, and graduates of all three that have been "abused" by their education- even the precious homeschoolers.





Anonymous ThirdMonkey August 27, 2012 3:01 PM  

Public school is child abuse."
Nice.
Another rabid homeschool parent who thinks that what's best for their kid is what's best for every kid. Whatever.

I have taught in Christian school, public school and homeschool. My children have at various times done all of the above. I have seen graduates of all three educational approaches that have been outstanding, and graduates of all three that have been "abused" by their education- even the precious homeschoolers.


Snowflake

Anonymous DonReynolds August 27, 2012 3:06 PM  

FREE GUNS. FREE GUNS.

Pass out enough guns to young blacks and they will waste each other before the election in November. Look at every major city in this country. Now focus on the major cities in the so-called "swing states". Pass out the free guns. This is just too easy.

Hey....what happened to all the protests and riots over Zimmerman shooting Martin in Florida? Where are they now?

Anonymous Gen. Kong August 27, 2012 3:08 PM  

Derb and Nicholas Stix have summed up publick edjumacation quite nicely:

“Education is a vast sea of lies, waste, corruption, crackpot theorizing, and careerist log-rolling.”

---- John Derbyshire

The only thing I might add is that this is not a case of good intentions gone awry, say, “a botched education.” Good intentions play no role whatsoever in contemporary public education.

There, you’ve saved yourself a fortune.


---- Nicholas Stix

Blogger James Dixon August 27, 2012 3:11 PM  

> Public School might be child abuse if the kind of shootings you reference were common. But of course, they are not.

http://www.schoolsecurity.org/trends/school_violence09-10.html

And that's only for 2009-2010.

Anonymous Tico August 27, 2012 3:13 PM  

So does violence/abuse/murder only count against homeschooling if it actually occurs during instruction?

Blogger Travis Kurtz August 27, 2012 3:19 PM  

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2005-11-16/news/0511160379_1_ludwig-kara-borden

Not every shooting.

Anonymous ThirdMonkey August 27, 2012 3:24 PM  

The only difference between a public school teacher and a prison guard is that teachers don’t work during the summer. My aunt, who has been an elementary school teacher for over 30 years, told me that most of the mandatory training they receive has very little to do with learning and everything to do with classroom management. Putting your child in an environment in which the only adult has no authority to discipline those who violate the rights of others through bullying and other forms of intimidation IS child abuse. But it wasn’t all bad for me. Public school instilled in me the values necessary for fightin’, drinkin’, and gettin’ laid (I wrapped it up, just like Coach Spinnelli taught us in the 5th grade). The survival skills that I honed on just on the big yellow school bus made me a tough bouncer in my college days.

Blogger Travis Kurtz August 27, 2012 3:31 PM  

ThirdMonkey, too dumb to take any AP courses?

Anonymous mjb August 27, 2012 3:37 PM  

Yes, we have mention of the masons here!

Anonymous VD August 27, 2012 3:49 PM  

Another rabid homeschool parent who thinks that what's best for their kid is what's best for every kid. Whatever.

Not at all. But public school isn't good for any kid. It's little more than brainwashing and intellectual lobotomizing.

Anonymous jay c August 27, 2012 3:51 PM  

Public school is child abuse.

True, but some kids need a little abuse.

Anonymous Mrs. Pilgrim August 27, 2012 3:57 PM  

Let's play Dissect the Dissent.

Another rabid homeschool parent...

"I'm going to open with an insult because I assume that, despite your not knowing of my existence until I posted this, you meant to insult me personally. Also, I'm going to characterize you as just one of many, a dime a dozen, nothing to see here move right along, so I can make myself look more reasonable by comparison. I'm sure your readers will be completely taken in by my methods."

...who thinks that what's best for their kid is what's best for every kid.

"Describing this as just you being narrow-minded excuses me from acknowledging the almost invariably demonstrated superiority of what I assume you are proposing. I am hoping nobody will notice that I have just used the same rationale actually used by many abusive or neglectful parents to excuse their failings."

Whatever.

"In case you weren't aware that I'm dismissing you as a loooooser, allow me to add the magic word 'whatever' and, perhaps, imply that I'm holding my finger and thumb in the shape of an L on my forehead."

I have taught in Christian school, public school and homeschool. My children have at various times done all of the above.

"As indicated above, I have taken your general statement as a personal attack against me, a complete stranger to you, due to my resembling that remark. I would suggest pistols at dawn, but I find gun violence between white adults distasteful. (Although clearly, gun violence perpetrated by students of the school system my children attend bothers me far less.)"

I have seen graduates of all three educational approaches that have been outstanding...

"Allow me to refer unspecifically to the few persons who have excelled in the public-school system--whom I subconsciously acknowledge to be indeed few because they are 'outstanding' and not 'typical'. I hope nobody will wonder how much better these 'outstanding' students might have done had they been enrolled in a serious course of study instead of a redundant, inefficient system designed to insulate them from anything resembling adult life."

...and graduates of all three that have been "abused" by their education- even the precious homeschoolers.

"Allow me to make yet another unspecific reference to some victim of 'abuse' by education, so as to prove that your superior methods are not actually superior.

"You will please fail to note that I have not actually addressed the question of exposing children to direct physical violence, if not mortal peril, on a regular basis. You will also please fail to note that I have not specified whether I am currently employed by a public school district.

"Now I'm going to go away mad and not sleep with you--no, wait, I'm supposed to be a guy."

Anonymous VD August 27, 2012 4:11 PM  

Well done, Mrs. Pilgrim. You only missed one thing:

I have taught in Christian school, public school and homeschool.

Translation: I have a sub-100 IQ.

Anonymous Anonymous August 27, 2012 4:16 PM  

old white guy says......vd. this may be a good response but trashing Christians, many who may be your intellectual superior is just silly.

Blogger JDC August 27, 2012 4:17 PM  

Mrs Pilgrim - very nice. Precise and hilarious.

My mother taught K in downtown Saginaw, MI for 20+ years. She was diehard for the union, and for the public school system. In her final years of teaching however she started to harden to the idea of corralling kids in a room together (not enough to vote anything but Democrat...but enough for us to notice).

She came to the conclusion that her purpose as a teacher was two-fold: a) make sure the kids didn't harm each other, b) provide the parents with free daycare (most of her parents were unemployed and living off the welfare system)- and couldn't wait to dump the kiddies off at school.

The thought of actually teaching them anything was ludicrous. Even at the best private schools kids are subjected to all kinds of nonsense. But...it's what's best for them, because then they will become properly socialized amongst their peers, and perhaps, get a good date at the senior prom.

I'm coming to the conclusion that parents today place the highest priority on their children being popular amongst their peers. That is why they cannot fathom why someone would actually place their child's well being and education at a higher priority - and decide to home school.

Anonymous Vitus_Bering August 27, 2012 4:19 PM  

I, too, have taught in all three arenas. I have successfully earned coin in the private sector as well.
My IQ is above 100.

Blogger Joshua_D August 27, 2012 4:22 PM  

In addition to the school shootings, there are the pedophiles. I read a local news story about a public school teacher being charged with pedophilia about every week or so.

Anonymous Vitus_Bering August 27, 2012 4:25 PM  

Joshua_D:

Do you read about it (the pedophilia)every week or so? Or...
Is there a certain pedophile being charged every week or so?
Your poor sentence structure implies the latter.
Were you home schooled?

Anonymous JI August 27, 2012 4:25 PM  

"Man, Vox knows everything about everything! "Public school is child abuse." Flaming sword. All that talk about money things that's over our heads. All the karate, kung-fu stuff he knows...
I feel so inadequate.
Is it okay to feel this way?
Am I normal?"

Dunno' if you're normal or not, but you're definitely in danger of being declared a beta male.

Anonymous HH August 27, 2012 4:33 PM  

In 2007 CDC data

Homicide with a firearm: 12,129
Suicide with a firearm: 17,348
Death by accidental discharge of firearm: 721
Legal interventions with gun: 5,000 deaths (police shooting criminals)

In 2007-2008 year number school shootings: 3

The math shows that in regards to getting shot and killed its much safer to be in a public school than out in public or even in the home. :)

Blogger JohnG August 27, 2012 4:35 PM  

@Joshua_D

I think the "female teacher has sex with the entire football team..." thing happens quite a bit more often than once a week. Funny that they never say "pedophile" in that case...

Anonymous ThirdMonkey August 27, 2012 4:35 PM  



They didn't start offering AP classes until two years after I graduated. I clepped out of 45 or 50 hours of math, English & literature, history, Spanish, and science by the time I graduated high school. Not that it was a monumental achievement, but I was an A-B student, except for when I made the all-A honor roll the semester that I missed so much school due to an illness the principal threatened to give me an incomplete for all my classes. It was then that my parents and I noticed a direct correlation between lack of attendance and scholastic achievement, which was communicated to a couple of members of the school board. After all, I wasn't so distracted with the beer, babes, and brawls that resulted from my socialization in the public education system.

Anonymous Noah B. August 27, 2012 4:38 PM  

Kids, this is what happens when you're overly critical of your peers' dialectical journals.

Anonymous VD August 27, 2012 4:39 PM  

old white guy says......vd. this may be a good response but trashing Christians, many who may be your intellectual superior is just silly.

You do amuse me. If the guy was ever a public school teacher, there is so little chance he is my intellectual superior that the probability approaches zero. A very, very small chance. I mean, we're talking "the probability that Richard Dawkins assigns to the existence of the Christian God of the Bible" small.

My IQ is above 100.

It's certainly possible for a public school teacher to have an IQ above 100. Many do, though most don't. Throw in the additional evidence of the post contents and the conclusion is a reasonable one. Not necessarily a correct one, of course, but the logical one nonetheless.

Blogger Joshua_D August 27, 2012 4:43 PM  

Vitus, about every week or so, I read about a different school teacher being charged with pedophilia, and like JohnG said, I'm not counting the female teachers. ;)

But don't feel bad snowflake, you aren't alone.

Blogger James Dixon August 27, 2012 4:47 PM  

> In 2007-2008 year number school shootings: 3

http://www.schoolsecurity.org/trends/school_violence07-08.html

disagrees with you.

> The math shows that in regards to getting shot and killed its much safer to be in a public school than out in public or even in the home. :)

And where in those figures do you provide any statistics noting what percentage of those were at home?

Anonymous Vitus_Bering August 27, 2012 4:50 PM  

I am unfamiliar with the jargonistic term of snowflake. I believe I could infer its meaning, but please enlighten me.

Anonymous JartStar August 27, 2012 4:50 PM  

I’d be interested in knowing your logic or evidence of enough parents providing their children with better educations if they were simply shut down for it to be a benefit at this point to the USA. I see no evidence that the majority of the American public would have the either the inclination or ability to teach their children what they themselves readily don’t know or care about in the first place.

I can definitely see 1/3rd of the public, the ones who are solely dependent upon government now, doing little or nothing and the US becoming a 3rd world country at a faster rate.

If parents don’t care if their kids are sent to institutions in which they are abused, why would they suddenly care if they were wandering the streets in gangs, or could barely read or write?

By no means is this a defense of the public school system, but I don’t know if shutting them all down would give us more liberty in the foreseeable future.

Shutting them down seems to be on the verge of “eggs and omelets” for a better tomorrow.

Anonymous Josh August 27, 2012 4:53 PM  

Vitus is just upset because he's not getting any action from his students.

Blogger James Dixon August 27, 2012 4:54 PM  

> old white guy says......vd. this may be a good response but trashing Christians, many who may be your intellectual superior is just silly.

Old white guy needs to learn some math. Vox is at least in the 130's in IQ. That means that less than 2.5% of people are his intellectual superiors.

Anonymous Vitus_Bering August 27, 2012 4:55 PM  

Josh - Wow, that was intelligent, pithy, and concise! Okay, it wasn't intelligent, nor was it true!
Plus, I'm not upset.

Blogger Joshua_D August 27, 2012 4:56 PM  

JartStar August 27, 2012 4:50 PM

I’d be interested in knowing your logic or evidence of enough parents providing their children with better educations


We could start with a discussion of whether the public school system even provides an education in the first place, let alone a better one.

Information does not equal education.

Blogger James Dixon August 27, 2012 4:57 PM  

> ...nor was it true!

So you are getting action from your students then?

Anonymous Noah B. August 27, 2012 4:58 PM  

Snowflake: one of a kind; totally unique; unlike everyone else in the universe; so special that the rules that apply to you don't apply to everyone else
/s

Blogger Joshua_D August 27, 2012 5:01 PM  

Hey, hey, hey. Let's not get distracted about the students Vitus may or may not be gettin' busy with. We're talking about school violence here, not sex between public school coaches/phys ed teachers and female volleyball players!

Anonymous Quinn the Eskimo August 27, 2012 5:03 PM  

I grew up in a working-class lower-middle-income household; both my parents had only a high-school education, neither of them went to college. My parents taught me and all my siblings to read, draw, and do basic math at home, by the time we were about five. They taught us to read using a combination of the Bible, a big dusty old used volume of English ballads and poetry (stuff like "Sir Patrick Spens"), and my father's Mickey Spillane crime paperbacks. The first book I could read by myself wasn't Doctor Seuss, it was "The Invisible Man" by H.G. Wells. (My father also taught all us kids to adore old black and white monster movies.)

Then it was time to go off to school. Holy shit. I sat bewildered for two straight years while the rest of the class struggled to get through "Hop on Pop" and absurd phonics textbooks that made absolutely no sense to me. The place was a circus, most of the day was taken up with monotonous discipline and threats to get the class to quiet down and come to order. At home I wrote my own fake ballads like the ones in the poetry book; at school I wrote out "SILENCE IS GOLDEN, QUIET IS DIVINE" 100 times most days as a punishment, along with the rest of the class, even though I wasn't the one making the ruckus (they were rather big on collective punishment in that place, quite a lesson in itself.) I insulated myself from bullies by drawing them pictures of popular cartoon characters saying snarky things about the teachers; apparently this made me too valuable to beat to a pulp. That was the other useful lesson.

The next several years were no better. I think I can say, from about first to fifth grade, cumulatively, nothing was taught that couldn't have been learned in about six weeks total by anyone who was paying the slightest bit of attention. When school let out every day, (or probably every other day, I played roller hockey too), I went down to the local public library, which was surprisingly good. That was where I got my actual education. Got bored with the science fiction pretty quickly, by sixth grade I was reading Kafka in secret. Read the "Nighttown" section of Ulysses maybe a dozen times that year -- didn't understand a word of it, but found it strangely mesmerizing. Nobody told me Kafka and Joyce were classics, they were just among the random books I plucked off the shelves at whim, some about bank robberies, some about ancient warfare, some about existential angst. I recall reading Kafka and Alastair MacLean at around the same time, and liking them both pretty much equally.

I don't think I was exceptionally bright, (brighter than average but not exceptional) but the plain fact was that I was a witty and inventive kid with a lot of curiosity, and five days a week, seven hours a day of my childhood was basically just flat-out stolen from me while I sat in a crowded room with a pack of noisy little savages, in an environment that was a cross between a low-security prison and a Victorian workhouse.

Finally I got into an elite high school and put those days behind me, but I'm still angry about the loss of what I could have achieved if I hadn't had to put up with the low-grade social torture that was school.

It was nothing but a nuisance and a waste of my time. And nobody even got shot there.

Blogger Joshua_D August 27, 2012 5:09 PM  

JartStar August 27, 2012 4:50 PM:

Shutting them down seems to be on the verge of “eggs and omelets” for a better tomorrow.


Also, what would we do with all those suddenly-unemployed public school teachers and administrators? And how could most parents work Monday through Friday, 8:00 am - 5:00 pm, with out that taxpayer-subsidized, babysitting service, I mean, public school system?

Anonymous Vitus_Bering August 27, 2012 5:12 PM  

James Dixon wrote: > ...nor was it true!

So you are getting action from your students then?

Nice job, James, you scored on my homecourt.... proper use of words. Touche.

Now, to clarify.... never have I done anything improper, illegal, or immoral with anyone. Better?

Anonymous JartStar August 27, 2012 5:15 PM  

We could start with a discussion of whether the public school system even provides an education in the first place, let alone a better one.

Information does not equal education.


No. You missed my point. I’m not arguing that public schools are better at educating than home schooling, but rather the societal implications of turning loose tens of millions of children of which 1/3 of their parents are dependent upon the government for their subsistence.

I’ll use another example: Assuming that illegal immigrants are given amnesty and public schools are banned in the US. What language will the parents teach in at home, or in private schools they form? I have a feeling it won’t be English. Will they model their new private schools after the “world class” Mexican public schools?

It’s possible the better education of homeschooled kids is precisely because they have parents who make educating and parenting their kids a priority over lifestyle. Gen Y has parents (Boomers) who specifically picked their lifestyle (divorce, non-involvement, abortion) OVER their children. They are the ones who are encouraging their children to enter a lifetime of debt servitude through students loans, and suddenly these are the people who will give a damn about their kid’s education? I don’t see it. Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t see it.

Anonymous HH August 27, 2012 5:16 PM  

Dixon says:

"disagrees with you."

Do you believe there to be a significant statistical difference between 3 and 16 when compared to >35k deaths by guns when discussing a student population of 49M...

"And where in those figures do you provide any statistics noting what percentage of those were at home?"

So you are claiming that its reasonable that with > 35k gun related deaths in 2007 that a number less than 16 occurred in a house.

Look at 16/49,000,000 students compared to 35000/285,000,000 population. You are talking several orders of magnitude difference.

I am not going to argue one side or the other whether home school is better/worse/different than public school .. and I can find good/bad reasons for/against both... that's been beat to death here. In the case of parents doing what they think is right for their kids I support it 100%.

I am only interested in the math. :)

Anonymous ThirdMonkey August 27, 2012 5:24 PM  

Also, what would we do with all those suddenly-unemployed public school teachers and administrators?

Prison guards. They already have the training, and will probably recognize some of the inmates from their previous teaching days.

Anonymous Josh August 27, 2012 5:38 PM  

What language will the parents teach in at home, or in private schools they form? I have a feeling it won’t be English

Because the system is already doing such a great job at teaching immigrants English...

Anonymous JartStar August 27, 2012 5:47 PM  

Josh

Because the system is already doing such a great job at teaching immigrants English...


If they homeschooled their kids or formed community private schools would teach more or less English?

Anonymous Buckeyecopperhead August 27, 2012 6:01 PM  

So am I to understand that today's urban high school students are nothing like those lovable ethnically diverse ragamuffins seen on "Welcome Back Kotter"?

Blogger Joshua_D August 27, 2012 6:03 PM  

I know what you're asking Jart; I just don't think it's a relevant question. I doubt the federal government or any state governments will choose shut down the public school system. And I doubt the majority of parents will choose to make a sacrifice and stay home and school their own children or try to develop a small community school.

I prefer to hope some people will read posts like Vox's and comments of the Ilk and choose to homeschool their child rather than subject them to the public school system.

In any case, the argument, or your points, about whether parents are capable of teaching their children, or whether immigrant parents will educate their children in Spanish or not have not, really don't matter because public school funding, like all other public funding, will soon run out.

Anonymous Public/Private/Home School Dad August 27, 2012 6:09 PM  

Loved the "Dissect the Dissent" Pilgrim. One quibble- me citing MY examples of outstanding public school students should count just as much as VD citing his examples of terrible public school students, right? Thanks!

So me establishing my bona fides [taught/had children in all three arenas] is snowflaking?
Teaching in the public school means I have a sub-100 IQ?
Public school isn't good for any kid?

We are definitely dealing with rabid HOME SCHOOL! people. So much for a rational discussion of educational options.

As I have said before, home schooling isn't for everyone. And neither is public school.
And neither is Christian school. It depends on your children and the schools in your area.

Anonymous VD August 27, 2012 6:14 PM  

Teaching in the public school means I have a sub-100 IQ?

On average, yes. Especially if you're teaching at the elementary level. El-Ed majors have the lowest IQs of all college majors.

Public school isn't good for any kid?

Nope. Those who turn out all right would do better in any of the other options. In most cases, considerably better. The basic concept of group schooling is fundamentally flawed, as should be evident if you simply think logically through the matter. And now, it's a technologically outdated relic.

Anonymous Azimus August 27, 2012 6:14 PM  

VD August 27, 2012 3:49 PM
Not at all. But public school isn't good for any kid. It's little more than brainwashing and intellectual lobotomizing.


Now, the American system is the old Prussian system - well more like an Emo version of the old Prussian system. The intentions of the Prussian system are well known. How do you expect the public schools to turn out such fine candidates for the infantry if they don't do intellectual lobotomizing? [/s]

The irony is, homeschoolers probably provide more (certainly by proportion, possibly by raw count) volunteers for the armed forces than the public schools do...

Blogger Joshua_D August 27, 2012 6:14 PM  

Right, public school isn't for everyone, except in those states where governments have passed laws to make it very difficult to homeschool your child.

I'm rabid. RABID I TELL YOU!

Don't worry public school teachers, you'll lose you jobs soon enough, just like everyone else.

Anonymous Kalocks D'Pues August 27, 2012 6:20 PM  

I'd like to chime in and add that my IQ is over 100 as well.

Blogger SarahsDaughter August 27, 2012 6:22 PM  

"It depends on your children and the schools in your area." - Public/Private/Home School Dad

Yes, I'm sure that's how ALL parents decide on which school to place their children in. No parent would just blindly put little Timmy in a school without analyzing his needs or the school's ability to meet them. Never.

Anonymous Rennie August 27, 2012 6:27 PM  

"Those who turn out all right would do better in any of the other options." -Vox, 6:14pm

That assumes any of the other options are available to the kids. For many kids no other educational options exist apart from public schooling.

Anonymous Stilicho August 27, 2012 6:30 PM  

It hardly matters whether they are taught in Spanish or not taught at all (Anglo or diverse types) since so little is being taught to them in public schools and there is more emphasis on indoctrination than education anyway. At least we wouldn't have to pay for the crappy public schools. It's going to reach a point soon where discerning employers will regard a public school education in much the same light as a prison record.

Anonymous Mrs. Pilgrim August 27, 2012 6:37 PM  

That assumes any of the other options are available to the kids. For many kids no other educational options exist apart from public schooling.

Just because my parents made both private and home-schooling unavailable to me, for instance, doesn't mean that I wouldn't have done better with either than with the public school. It just means that the question is...

*puts on sunglasses*

...academic.

*YEAHHHHHH!*

Anonymous kh123 August 27, 2012 6:41 PM  

"me citing MY examples of outstanding public school students should count just as much as VD citing his examples of terrible public school students, right? Thanks!"

The difference being that your examples are seemingly despite the dysfunction of the public education sector, while the latter could be said to be in direct relation to the negligence and simultaneous forcing together of young zeks into pre-county lockup.

High school's the first place I'd seen:

-A gun other than at a range.
-Someone lighting property on fire with a can of Zippo (and while in class with teacher present).
-Someone tied unwillingly and horizontally to a handrail with duct tape.
-A Porto-Potty tipped over. With someone in it.
-Exploding trashcans.
-Exploding burritos in the bathroom.
-A bicycle used as a weapon.
-Chain used as a weapon.
-Someone getting kneed in the face. Repeatedly.
-Nair in a water balloon hitting a girl in the head.
-People my age getting arrested.
-Gang fights.


And this was just the first year and a half.

Now, is all of the above despite of - or in direct relation to - tax dollars that public education receives every year? If it's due to improper funding, then why despite increasing budgets allocated their way over the decades does it continue to happen? And why (if because of lack of funds) are kids kept in a situation that is at the least mismanaged, and at most potentially dangerous and lethal all the meanwhile? If children are being regularly neglected or assaulted at a pediatric ward, are you going to chance your kids being there?

Blogger Johnjet August 27, 2012 6:43 PM  

We need to stop supplying the armed forces with our young men. I see this all too often and it is false patriotism.

Anonymous scoobius dubious August 27, 2012 6:48 PM  

"And I doubt the majority of parents will choose to make a sacrifice and stay home and school their own children or try to develop a small community school."

There's no need to stay at home to do home-schooling, at least in the early years when it's most valuable. From grades K-6 roughly, what is actually taught in the course of a real-time public school day amounts to maybe 90 minutes of actual instruction for a average non-retarded white kid; the rest of the time is spent on "classroom management", i.e. supervising loud, slow-witted, disruptive, maladjusted, misbehaving blacks and browns. No white child, even a slow one, should be forced to spend time cooped up among these animals, except as a punishment.

If you're instructing your kids yourself, you can do it at home, at night, after work and after dinner, for about two and a half hours a night; turn off the damn television and the computer, and if you're focused and efficient, you'll be making more progress at that pace than a public school day would on average, except for maybe a magnet school (but of course your kids aren't getting into the magnet school, because it's been reserved/manipulated for the children of jews, asians, and subcons!).

During the day, your kids can do the homework they were assigned by you the night before. Get a few parents together, pool your resources, and hire a group chaperone for all your kids (and hire a background-checker or a private detective to vet the chaperone first!). During work hours, the kids can do their homework in the morning, supervised by the chaperone (who just has to be a responsible adult who isn't Chester the Molester, not a qualified instructor) and then in the afternoon they can all go on a useful field trip somewhere.

Any parent with a college degree from a respectable university should be able to figure out how to instruct their children in the standard subjects up to about grade 5. If you can't, this country is awash with unemployed liberal-arts majors who can, so your main expense is simply the background check to make sure you aren't hiring tutors who are problematic.

It's fun, it's productive, it's not as hard as you think, and it keeps your children away from a) vibrancy, and b) destructive brainwashing about vibrancy.

As to whether immigrant home-schoolers will teach their kids in Spanish when the public schools close down... who cares? Immigrant Mexican children don't belong in school anyway. They don't deserve an American education, especially not one they stole from the American taxpayer. They should be picking lettuce, and doing degrading stoop-labor for low, low, low, low wages: after all, that is exactly what they came here to do. It's easier to be poor in America than it is to be poor in Mexico, and they snuck in here expecting to be poor, American-style. We owe them nothing. We owe their children nothing either, except a life of menial labor at low, low, low, low wages. That is what they bargained for; that is what they should receive. If they wanted "the American Dream" then they should have come here through the proper legal channels; they cannot skulk in here illegally, and then ex post facto claim a birthright that is not theirs to claim. Children of immigrants should remain poor, illiterate, and Spanish-speaking, and their children's children as well, so that they can be woefully exploited for low, low, low, low, low, low wages: that is the bargain they made with us. If they want to dream, let them dream in Mexico. End of transmission.

Blogger ajw308 August 27, 2012 6:49 PM  

That assumes any of the other options are available to the kids. For many kids no other educational options exist apart from public schooling.
Are you talking about all those orphans living in a box?

Anonymous Public/Private/Home School Dad August 27, 2012 6:52 PM  

@Sarah's Daughter
Difficult to understand your comment. It reads like vague, non-directional sarcasm. Many parents DON'T think through the needs of their children vs. the educational options in their area, they should. Your point?

And the "rabidity" of this blog regarding home schooling speaks for itself. It's like the annoying people at church that have no problem telling the soon-to-be mom that she simply MUST go natural sans epidural and then sit in their smug superiority about those that don't. Hey! Guess what? Everyone isn't you! There are good, intelligent Christians that have come to different conclusions regarding the education of their children. They aren't de facto sub-100's.

Anonymous kh123 August 27, 2012 6:56 PM  

"And the "rabidity" of this blog regarding home schooling speaks for itself."

Then it should be easy to field the questions posed. Start with mine if you'd like.

Anonymous Noah B. August 27, 2012 7:04 PM  

"Are you talking about all those orphans living in a box?"

Living in boxes deep in the Alaskan wilderness... where public school is the only option. It's enough to make Sally Struthers cry her little eyes out.

Anonymous Noah B. August 27, 2012 7:06 PM  

"They aren't de facto sub-100's."

But they're working their way there, I guess. (Sorry... you left the door open too wide to resist.)

Anonymous Stickwick August 27, 2012 7:06 PM  

My father just retired after 32 years as a public high school teacher. He said over the last 20 years, things have deteriorated significantly. At this point, he says public schools are just an extension of the street. He would not put any of his kids in a public school these days.

Hey! Guess what? Everyone isn't you!

Hey! Guess what? Maybe the folks here and those women have a point! Usually when people get this worked up about other people's opinions, they aren't too secure about their own. And for someone who makes a lot of noise about other people being smug and superior, you sure come across as both.

Blogger SarahsDaughter August 27, 2012 7:18 PM  

"@Sarah's Daughter
Difficult to understand your comment. It reads like vague, non-directional sarcasm. Many parents DON'T think through the needs of their children vs. the educational options in their area, they should. Your point?" - Public/Private/Home School Dad

Your being even slightly confused by my sarcasm makes it evident you're new here. You spew insults without taking the time to click the "education" tag where you'd be able to read over the vast conversations that have been had on this blog regarding homeschooling and public education. You'd find fascinating statistics that would prove your anecdote is just that. But I guess that's an unrealistic expectation for a keyboard warrior that needs to right the wrongs on the internets like a wretched troll.

Those that appreciate the host and commenters here but are still vacillating about how to best educate their children will find much helpful information here. Unfortunately they will also have to read through your blather.

You're right, most people don't think through what is best for their children's education. So why are you foaming at the mouth about this discussion. If a parent were to consider homeschooling, wouldn't it be beneficial for them to read about it from a respected source?

Blogger James Dixon August 27, 2012 7:36 PM  

> Nice job, James, you scored on my homecourt.... proper use of words. Touche.

You set yourself up for it beautifully, Vitus. I think you've been here a while and know what to expect. :)

> Now, to clarify.... Better?

Yes. And to clarify, I didn't think you had.

> Do you believe there to be a significant statistical difference between 3 and 16 when compared to >35k deaths by guns when discussing a student population of 49M...

I consider understating the actual number by over 5 fold to be a significant error on your part. More importantly, since the link was readily obtainable with a simple Google search, it's also indicative of someone who can't be bothered to do their homework and whose other arguments therefore can't be trusted.

> So you are claiming that its reasonable that with > 35k gun related deaths in 2007 that a number less than 16 occurred in a house.

I'm claiming that you haven't provided any information to support your argument. See above about what that means. If you ever successfully make an argument, I'll consider whether it's worth trying to refute it. With proper evidence, I might even conclude that it's correct.

> Look at 16/49,000,000 students compared to 35000/285,000,000 population

More like 300 million, over a 24 hour day versus a 7-8 hour school day. And a proper analysis would only deal with children in both situations.

> I am only interested in the math. :)

Saying this as politely as possible, you've got a lot of work to do then. But keep trying. You might make a convincing argument if you eliminate the errors. And since your figures don't match readily available ones, you might want to provide your sources.

> Public school isn't good for any kid?

No, it really isn't. It isn't terrible for some kids, but it's not good for any of them.

> That assumes any of the other options are available to the kids. For many kids no other educational options exist apart from public schooling.

While true, this isn't an argument in favor of public schools. We could use the money currently going to public schools to provide those other options.

> High school's the first place I'd seen: ... -A gun other than at a range.

You obviously lead a deprived childhood.

> There are good, intelligent Christians that have come to different conclusions regarding the education of their children.

To quote the New York liberals with regard to who voted for Nixon, no one I know. :)

But you are undoubtedly correct. Random chance indicates that probably at least a third of them would. And they're their kids, not mine, so not my decision to make. That doesn't change the fact that they're wrong.

Anonymous fnn August 27, 2012 7:38 PM  

What would the Feds do if some state with the right combination of libertarians and religious social conservatives decided to do away with public k-12? The libertarians are of course insignificant demographically but they might provide some intellectual assistance.

Anonymous Kickass August 27, 2012 7:54 PM  

Last line, yes. Which is why you are getting your period all over your comment. Classy.

Anonymous Kickass August 27, 2012 7:55 PM  

Statistics please.

Anonymous Kickass August 27, 2012 8:00 PM  

The cannibals were almost all black, were they not? Except for the gay canadian, right?

Anonymous Kickass August 27, 2012 8:02 PM  

I dont believe you.

Anonymous Kickass August 27, 2012 8:06 PM  

I think I love you.

Anonymous Kickass August 27, 2012 8:10 PM  

Functionally retarded are we? Is it good to ASSume when google is so easy?

Anonymous George August 27, 2012 8:16 PM  

VD Said:

"Not at all. But public school isn't good for any kid. It's little more than brainwashing and intellectual lobotomizing."

And yet the public school system produces bright, brilliant, well-educated students by the thousands. The fact that you can't see this only means you haven't looked.

EPIC FAIL by VD

Anonymous Public/Private/Home School Dad August 27, 2012 8:21 PM  

@SarahsDaughter: Point to the insults I have spewed or retract your comment. Thanks.
[I'm not new here sweetheart.]

It is funny how you talk like this blog is helping people on the fence make educational decisions and I am derailing the quality exchange of ideas. I've read here for years. There is Home School! and there are idiots and heathens that don't. It is funny how you dismiss anything I say as "anecdotal." I guess posting a shooting story on your blog and calling public education child abuse is the very definition of reasoned rational educational dialogue in your book.

I have taught in the 3 arenas being discussed. I have put 5 children through the various arenas being discussed. My wife has worked in admissions at a college for a number of years and travelled the country doing recruitment. My work has put me in schools across the country [rural/suburban/urban, traditional/magnet/STEM/etc, Christian/non-Christian private]. I have worked with professionals associated with education from a variety of angles on a variety of projects.

You have probably home schooled a couple of snowflakes. Maybe worked with a home school co-op and traded stories about the SCARY public school and the TOO LIBERAL Christian school nearby and read a blog that loves to post public school horror stories.

My "anecdotes" carry a little weight sweetie. I've worked in bakeries my entire life and you've eaten a couple of doughnuts.

Anonymous George August 27, 2012 8:22 PM  

James said:

"Old white guy needs to learn some math. Vox is at least in the 130's in IQ. That means that less than 2.5% of people are his intellectual superiors."

Does this mean that most folks with a 130+ IQ can't figure out the most basic and sensible set of morals?

Let's face it, this was the guy that noted he'd happily kill toddlers if his Sky God told him to: http://voxday.blogspot.com/2007/02/mailvox-sharpening-knives.html

Anonymous kh123 August 27, 2012 8:25 PM  

"And yet the public school system produces bright, brilliant, well-educated students by the thousands."

So did the Soviet Union, even with the Gulag system in full swing; Nobel Laureates included. In fact, there are several notable instances of physicists actually having begun their careers by the work they did while in prison, in one instance during a protracted interrogation.

Anonymous Kriston August 27, 2012 8:28 PM  

George of the Jungle August 27, 2012 8:16 PM

And yet the public school system produces bright, brilliant, well-educated students by the thousands.


Unfortunately for your argument public schools are pulling in students by the millions

Anonymous scoobius dubious August 27, 2012 8:36 PM  

Let's make this as simple as possible.

Public school with less than 15% black and brown students: probably manageable, possibly productive, if you can counter-act some of the blatant ideological pill-pushing.

Public school with more than 40% black and brown students: WARNING! WARNING! DANGER, WILL ROBINSON! DANGER! WARNING!

"Not even fit for a horse."
-- King Crimson

Public school with in between 15-40% black and brown students: well, it sort of depends. You'll have to go and have a look yourself.

That's about it. As Plato said, I believe in the Critias:
"Thass the fact, Jack."

Anonymous Anonymous August 27, 2012 8:37 PM  

the feral ones have been unleashed

Anonymous Vidad August 27, 2012 8:38 PM  

"There is Home School! and there are idiots and heathens that don't"

That's the first thing you've written that I agree with.



Anonymous George August 27, 2012 8:38 PM  

It has nothing to do with black or brown. It has to do with income. It's pretty simple.

Anonymous p-dawg August 27, 2012 8:42 PM  

If your child has a birth certificate and a Social Security number, it's not ultimately up to you, is it? You're the caretaker for the state's kid, and you'll do what you're told.

Anonymous p-dawg August 27, 2012 8:49 PM  

@public/private/confused dad
"It is funny how you dismiss anything I say as "anecdotal.""

No, it is funny that you are either unaware of the meaning of "anecdotal" or you believe that correctly labeling anecdotes as such is wrong. Then, in this same post, you proceed to lay out the following anecdotal evidence:
"I have taught in the 3 arenas being discussed. "
" I have put 5 children through the various arenas being discussed."
"My wife has worked in admissions at a college for a number of years and travelled the country doing recruitment."
"My work has put me in schools across the country [rural/suburban/urban, traditional/magnet/STEM/etc, Christian/non-Christian private]."
"I have worked with professionals associated with education from a variety of angles on a variety of projects."


Each of these statements is literally anecdotal. They, collectively, make up the entire paragraph following you bemoaning people dismissing your posts as anecdotal. Do you really not see the disconnect here?

Anonymous kh123 August 27, 2012 8:52 PM  

PPHS Dad;

Would you take your own kids to a pediatrics ward if there were any - not to mention repeated - instances of neglect or physical harm done to children there? Would you recommend others to take their kids there, much less on a regular basis?

Anonymous stats79 August 27, 2012 8:52 PM  

"It has nothing to do with black or brown. It has to do with income. It's pretty simple.

You really are kind of an 'tard. You just pull that "fact" right out of your ass? Have you ever looked at the stats?

Anonymous Stilicho August 27, 2012 8:57 PM  

And yet the public school system produces bright, brilliant, well-educated students by the thousands.

The public school system cannot make them brilliant or even bright, that's a function of the mental abilities they're born with. The well-educated part likely came about due to the relative brilliance or brightness, not what some sub-100 IQ union organizer did to them.

Blogger Joshua_D August 27, 2012 8:59 PM  

Vidad August 27, 2012 8:38 PM

"There is Home School! and there are idiots and heathens that don't"

That's the first thing you've written that I agree with.


See? We can all always agree on something, Public School Dad.

It's like abortion. In one camp there are people who value life, like me for instance. In the other camp there are murderers of innocent unborn children.

I'M RABID!!!!!!!!~1

Anonymous Public/Private/Home School Dad August 27, 2012 9:02 PM  

@pound puppy

Hey Captain Obvious, I know they are anecdotal. There is no disconnect. Sheesh.

Let me help you here...
1.] "You just a giving anecdotal evidence! Wah!" [SarahsDaughter, et al]
2.] Yup. The anecdotes of someone that has a lot of experience in the topic at hand.

Did you not get the whole bakery/doughnut eater thingy?? It's like a fatty doughnut eater telling a baker...
oh nevermind...

PS- Feel free to dismiss my "opinions" on education as being based on "anecdotal" evidence.
Just understand why I don't put much stock in the educational opinions of people around here
who have just home schooled a snowflake or two. That's all...

Blogger SarahsDaughter August 27, 2012 9:04 PM  

"@SarahsDaughter: Point to the insults I have spewed or retract your comment. Thanks.
[I'm not new here sweetheart.]" - Public/Private/Home School Dad

Really, I didn't recognize your moniker. As I understand it, the rules of the blog are Vox and SpaceBunny's rules, I could be wrong (you might want to review rule #1). I'm interested to know what exactly you think your recourse is if I don't do as you request.

I'll retract but please define rabid in the manner you're using it. Especially the one in scare quotes.

"It is funny how you talk like this blog is helping people on the fence make educational decisions"

I have evidence.

"My "anecdotes" carry a little weight sweetie."

No, they really don't. We know little about you or your wife with the stellar career. And you do nothing to present yourself as one whose words should be respected.

P.S. I believe kh123 has some questions you've left unanswered. It's in the RULES! ;)

Anonymous YIH August 27, 2012 9:05 PM  

Let's see, in Chicago they are concerned about the lack of metal detectors in the early detention centers/publik skools:
But on Aug. 25, no detectors were in place at Whitney M. Young Magnet High School, 211 S. Laflin St.. The school, considered the crown jewel of the Chicago system, has expelled seven students since 1995. It has three metal detectors, but it should have nine, board records show.
And why is this a problem? The article gives the answer:
''Because of the high caliber of the students''. Although I don't think I read that the way the writer intended.

Anonymous scoobius dubious August 27, 2012 9:09 PM  

"I don't put much stock in the educational opinions of people around here who have just home schooled a snowflake or two."

Well, you know how the old saying goes...

Nobody washes a rental snowflake.

Anonymous Musashi August 27, 2012 9:12 PM  

N E G R O S

Blogger James Dixon August 27, 2012 9:20 PM  

> And yet the public school system produces bright, brilliant, well-educated students by the thousands. The fact that you can't see this only means you haven't looked.

We have looked. Thousands out of how many millions, George? Statistical averages indicate it should be hundreds of thousands.

> Does this mean that most folks with a 130+ IQ can't figure out the most basic and sensible set of morals?

Morals don't have a lot to do with intelligence, George.

> Let's face it, this was the guy that noted he'd happily kill toddlers if his Sky God told him to: http://voxday.blogspot.com/2007/02/mailvox-sharpening-knives.html

Whereas you'll only kill them if the government tells you to. But that's oh so much better. After all, a government would never do such a thing, would it?

Anonymous FREEDOM LOVER! Om Shanti Om August 27, 2012 9:30 PM  

Off topic but just want to say nobody really knows what "freedom" means, even the libertarians.

Freedom means no forced taxes of any kind. Citizens instead get to donate to the causes of their choice. And of course those donations will reflect who values what.

For those that value The Space Program, they can donate there. For those that value war, those can donate to The Great American War machine.

For the rest of us who value good roads and local organic farms, we'll donate there.

All these programs will sink or swim based on donations, but not a single penny will come from someone who does not want to give voluntarily.

That's freedom. Are we ready for it? I know I sure am and I'd be interested to see where the most American values lie.

Anonymous George August 27, 2012 9:43 PM  

"James said:

"
> Let's face it, this was the guy that noted he'd happily kill toddlers if his Sky God told him to: http://voxday.blogspot.com/2007/02/mailvox-sharpening-knives.html

Whereas you'll only kill them if the government tells you to. But that's oh so much better. After all, a government would never do such a thing, would it?"

No, James, I won't...because I don't take my orders from imaginary sky gods.

Anonymous George August 27, 2012 9:45 PM  

Freedom Lover said:

"Off topic but just want to say nobody really knows what "freedom" means, even the libertarians.Freedom means no forced taxes of any kind."

Everyone knows what freedom means. They even understand your version. Rather people choose to live an a community in which they are concerned with the greater good, rather than only their best interests.

Anonymous Public/Private/Home School Dad August 27, 2012 9:49 PM  

@SarahsDaughter

1.] Do me a favor. Read through this thread. VD cheekily equates sending your child to public school is child abuse. I try to make a point that public/home/private school decisions depend on kids/families/communities and there isn't one way [home school in particular, the mantra of this blog]. I get accused of having a sub-100 IQ. [Which is totally fine, tee-he, ha ha]. THEN you come after me about derailing the quality educational discussion on this board and spewing insults. Can you see how that doesn't add up?

2.] I didn't see kh123's question. I'm sorry I am not chained to my computer. I will give it its due.

3.] I am fully aware of the limitations of anecdotal evidence. We are exchanging OPINIONS ON A BLOG.
I am telling you where MY opinion is coming from. It is coming from someone who has taught thousands of kids in a variety of settings, specifically the settings being discussed. It is coming from someone acquainted with college admissions that has tracked the success of public/private/homeschool students in college. It is coming from someone with 5 children that has utilized a variety of educational models/options with his own children. It is coming from someone who has travelled the country visiting schools/interviewing students/teachers/administrators. What experiences in education are YOU bringing to the discussion so I know how to weigh your OPINIONS???

PS- Yes p-dawg, this is a mountain of anecdote. It is PART of what my opinions on EDUCATION are based on. If we were shootin the shit about law enforcement [one of VD's other snarkfest targets, but I tend to agree with him there] and someone in the midst has decades of experience in a variety of law enforcement arenas- I'm gonna weigh that accordingly. It doesn't make someone RIGHT, put pardon me if I don't AUTOMATICALLY gravitate to someone's opinion on law enforcement who has two traffic tickets worth of experience in the topic at hand.

PSS- I love how on this blog if it is anecdotal evidence in support of what you believe, it is totally fine.
If it goes against your opinion, people get all "ANECDOTE, ANECDOTE! WHERE ARE YOUR STATISTICS???"
Especially on a thread that was started with AN ANECDOTE...

Anonymous Public/Private/Home School Dad August 27, 2012 9:52 PM  

I see some spelling/grammatical issues in my post above. Let me beat you to the punch...

"STUPID PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHER!"

Carry on.

Anonymous YIH August 27, 2012 9:59 PM  

@Public/Private/Home School Dad:
Placing a white child in early detention centers/publik skools that have so many of these that an adequate number of metal detectors is a major concern in the facility ''considered the crown jewel of the Chicago system'' is not child abuse?

Anonymous Idle Spectator August 27, 2012 10:31 PM  

Public school is good for you. But good for what, precisely?

- College? No, more high students than ever before are unprepared for rigorous undergraduate work.
- Working? Nope. A high diploma qualifies you to menial work at some fast food place.
- Education? Sometimes. But they're educated despite the system, not because of it. And how many students do not even graduate high school? Even the good students, the valedictorians, end up intellectually maimed. They can't see it sometimes, but it is there.
- Socialization? Maybe, if your main goal in life is to work on an factory assembly line or in an office cubical. Lord of the Flies is useful in some situations like a prison.
- Babysitting? I could see this function working well.

John Taylor Gatto nailed it in his book The Underground History of American Education. Really what the public schools are now is a giant work project to employ millions of people that would otherwise have a hard time being employed.

I mean I 'get it'. The schools USED to serve a purpose. Even if the purpose was horrible and some students got maimed along the way. Take a bunch of agricultural workers, farmers, and rural people and streamline them into industrial economic habits. Take a farmhand and make him into an orthodontist. That's the original socialization they keep referring too. But that doesn't make sense in 2012.


And yes, I went through the public schools.

Anonymous FREEDOM LOVER! Om Shanti Om August 27, 2012 10:35 PM  

"Everyone knows what freedom means. They even understand your version. Rather people choose to live an a community in which they are concerned with the greater good, rather than only their best interests."

George. I am finally living in a small community that shares (most of) my values however we are still forced to give our hard earned money to programs that do not reflect our values, individually or collectively. That's my point.

Blogger Joshua_D August 27, 2012 10:43 PM  

Public School Dad, we won't hold your spelling and grammar against you. Well, I won't, unless you confuse your and you're, and then you're dead to me. There is no test.

However, the main point is that you won't see home schoolers feeling the need to defend our decision like public school parents do. We just point out the obvious failures of the system, the lack of math skilz, the lack of reading skilz and reading comprehension skilz, etc., and think, "How very sad."

Anonymous FREEDOM LOVER! Om Shanti Om August 27, 2012 10:46 PM  

Public vs Private vs Homeschool vs Noschool (yes, there's a fad called "no schooling" now which is kicking all the homeschooling parents outta da ballpark in their "who can be crunchier/more alternative" competition, google it) depends largely on the situation and the financial privilege/financial independence of the parents.

I've seen kids do well and poorly in all of the above.

Blogger Joshua_D August 27, 2012 10:48 PM  

Give a man a public school education and he'll work 50 hours a week for a wage until retirement and love the system. Teach a man and well, who knows what he may do. But I guarantee a big FU to the Man is in his future somewhere. The Man don't like being told FU.

Anonymous FREEDOM LOVER! Om Shanti Om August 27, 2012 10:56 PM  

scoobius doobius, "Any parent with a college degree from a respectable university should be able to figure out how to instruct their children in the standard subjects up to about grade 5. If you can't, this country is awash with unemployed liberal-arts majors who can, so your main expense is simply the background check to make sure you aren't hiring tutors who are problematic."

Still reliant on the system here, hiring a college graduate or student to teach your kids, who most homeschooling parents no doubt STILL want to see go on to college. In fact that's the ironic thing, they BRAG about their homeschooled kids doing so well in college. Why not just home college? I don't see the point of keeping us out of public or private school until 18 and then expecting us to go on to public or private school at that time. Hell, many homeschooling parents expect us to go on to public or private college as early as 15 and actually BRAG about that.

I was homeschooled myself, can you tell? I didn't hate it, but there's some serious hypocrisy involved.

Anonymous FREEDOM LOVER! Om Shanti Om August 27, 2012 11:13 PM  

George, "Let's face it, this was the guy that noted he'd happily kill toddlers if his Sky God told him to: http://voxday.blogspot.com/2007/02/mailvox-sharpening-knives.html"

Saw it and commented.

Anonymous Idle Spectator August 27, 2012 11:14 PM  

Another thing. Public school is just a link in a larger chain. This was The Plan.

Public School => University => Work => Pension
A => B => C => D

- Elementary, middle, and high school. Children raised in closed environments.
- Specific "degree program" in something. Four years in a closed environment insuring a "job."
- Working one job for life referred to as a "career" at some company X.
- Retiring with a pension from that same company X.

Pensions are disappearing. Jobs are no longer permanent. College is in a bubble. Public schools are decaying. The decay went BACKWARDS.

Everything in the chain is breaking down. Public schools no longer make sense.

Blogger Hermit August 27, 2012 11:16 PM  

On a related note, today I sent in the letter to the State of Oregon informing them that our oldest will not be attending public schools. It is a very good feeling.

Anonymous Public/Private/Home School Dad August 27, 2012 11:24 PM  

However, the main point is that you won't see home schoolers feeling the need to defend our decision like public school parents do. We just point out the obvious failures of the system, the lack of math skilz, the lack of reading skilz and reading comprehension skilz, etc., and think, "How very sad." - Joshua_D

Here's the thing. Maybe the public school parents are a little defensive because they get weary of the "tsk, tsk" they encounter in many Christian circles where there is a lot of home schooling. "If you REALLY loved your kids and wanted God's best for them, blah blah blah."

The funny thing about this whole thing is that my 7th grade son is currently home schooling and it is great for him and is going really well. I am not against home schooling and I am very aware of the problems of the public school system. I have an 11th grader and a 10th grader in a magnet school that is one of the best high schools in the country and that is working out great for them. I have spent the day shadowing the principal there and she didn't deal with a single discipline issue the entire day, save for a student in the hall after the bell rang. [The student had a pass and all was well in the universe.] My 9th grade son is currently at the school where I teach. I know the teachers/classes to steer him toward and away from. My 1st grader is at a fabulous public school where many of the teachers are believers and we are very hands on parents and- surprise- he hasn't been sodomized yet by one of his teachers!

The scarrrry "anecdotes" that have been bandied about on this thread appear to come from inner city schools that are, as scoobius wisely pointed out above, different. My kids wouldn't be caught dead in some inner city school and fortunately, they don't have to be.

I am responsible for the education of my children before God. I appraise the needs of my kids and the tools at hand and try to make wise choices.


Anonymous FREEDOM LOVER! Om Shanti Om August 27, 2012 11:50 PM  

"However, the main point is that you won't see home schoolers feeling the need to defend our decision like public school parents do."

My parents had to defend their homeschooling/noschooling decisions all their lives (including to some of my siblings who resent it today!)

Anonymous oregon mouse August 28, 2012 12:04 AM  

oh the flood of nostalgia this thread brings on. My junior high was predominantly white and middle class yet I still had to deal with the black boy in music class who repeatedly stabbed my knees with a pencil (the teacher finally moved him without discipling him), black girls making fun of me because I was still a virgin at 12 (late bloomer I guess), and rich white chicks calling me names like "lesbian" because I was quiet and wore hand-me-downs. None of these kids were ever disciplined though I did get sent to the principles office once when I pushed the black boy in the hall after being harassed for some time. I think my children will take a pass on public school's magical ability to socialize children.

Anonymous Noah B. August 28, 2012 12:18 AM  

"My kids wouldn't be caught dead in some inner city school and fortunately, they don't have to be."

Sounds nice for you, but parents who live in inner cities, want good education for their children, and work but cannot afford private school have little choice other than to send their kids to public school. Those inner city parents are being ripped off by governments that tax them heavily but deprive them of choice. If they weren't paying property taxes (even indirectly), they might have some choice in the matter. More mothers might be able to stay home and teach their own children.

Anonymous The other skeptic August 28, 2012 12:21 AM  

And when they grow up they can go on Stars earn Stripes and become the sort of people the US Military needs.

Anonymous Anonymous August 28, 2012 12:37 AM  

male bad; "persons" heros.

Anonymous kh123 August 28, 2012 12:44 AM  

"The scarrrry "anecdotes" that have been bandied about on this thread appear to come from inner city schools..."

If you want to consider an entirely sleepy, mostly white suburban neighborhood high school - with a private Catholic school just across the street - inner city, be my guest. This is where the examples I provided took place my freshman year.

Although interestingly, we had an influx of a latino contingent that came from the northern school district (still suburban) area of our town a few years preceding, plus the 50+ from the tiny migrant farming/cannery town several miles away. Hence the gangs I mentioned earlier.

Anyhow, interested in seeing what your answers will be to earlier.

Anonymous stats79 August 28, 2012 12:45 AM  

"No, James, I won't...because I don't take my orders from imaginary sky gods."

Oh, good, another aspie.

Anonymous The Great Martini August 28, 2012 12:49 AM  

It's a little ironic to make a post about public schools and use "have began" in it.

Anonymous p-dawg August 28, 2012 1:08 AM  

@defensive dad: YOU COMPLAINED about having your anecdotes dismissed. Then came back with more anecdotes, claiming that YOURS aren't really anecdotal because they're YOUR experiences and that makes them more valuable than typical anecdotal evidence. This is patently retarded. Let me state it more plainly: You are not very intelligent. EVERYONE thinks that their anecdotes are more valuable than the average. That is only one reason that anecdotal evidence is worthless in a debate.

"PS- Feel free to dismiss my "opinions" on education as being based on "anecdotal" evidence."

Don't worry; I already had. I also really like how you quote-marked opinions...no, no, I understand - your insights are so valuable as to have reached the level of fact. I admit, the thought that you might really believe some such thing gave me a chuckle, so I can't say you're good for nothing. Just not good for much.

Anonymous Redlegben August 28, 2012 1:14 AM  

...but...but...but...you don't understand. I'm a really big deal to all the other <100 IQ people that I associate with. They all agree that I'm a big deal. It's peer reviewed.

Anonymous p-dawg August 28, 2012 1:16 AM  

Oh, and defensive dad, if we're going to use anecdotal evidence as real evidence, you should know - I am a survivor of public schooling, so I am not without anecdotes of my own. For every anecdote you can come up with, I can relate at least two. Does that mean I win? I spent 12 years incarcerated in the public school system; does that make my opinion more or less valuable than yours? Or am I to believe that my experience is atypical while yours is typical? Do you begin to understand why anecdotes make good stories but not persuasive evidence? No, who am I kidding? Of course you don't.

Blogger Spacebunny August 28, 2012 1:23 AM  

Public/Private/Home School Dad - you claim you are not new to this forum and yet you also claim that everything posted here by Vox et al is nothing more than anecdotal evidence. You can't have it both ways, dear. If you have been reading here for any length of time, you would know the facts (not anecdotes) with regards to group schooling regarding sexual abuse in schools (your child has a 1 in 10 chance of getting sexually abused by a school employee for example) and how well home educated children do compared to public/private educated children (1 to 2 grade levels higher on average).

Maybe the public school parents are a little defensive because they get weary of the "tsk, tsk" they encounter in many Christian circles where there is a lot of home schooling. "If you REALLY loved your kids and wanted God's best for them, blah blah blah."

What utter crap and yet another example of why your opinion carries so very little weight (approaching zero). You claim to have all of this experience in the various educational arenas, but this idiocy puts lie to at least part of it. I coop with a fairly decent sized group of non Christian home educators and they experience the exact same defensiveness from their non Christian acquaintances who don't home educate. Personally, I get more defensiveness from non Christians who don't home educate than I do from Christians who don't. Perhaps you need to expand your horizons a bit. Because your claim to superior experience is clearly a bit of pot/kettle situation.

Your emotional outbursts (calling everyone rabid for example) do little to add to your credibility, dear.

Anonymous GHS August 28, 2012 1:35 AM  

>No, James, I won't...because I don't take my orders from imaginary sky gods.

The irony is that there's more evidence for God than there is for a subsection of humanity who believes in EDSF, the Easily Debunked Sky Fairy.

Blogger Vox August 28, 2012 3:17 AM  

It's a little ironic to make a post about public schools and use "have began" in it.

Yes, perhaps someday I will stop editing my sentences halfway through.

Does this mean that most folks with a 130+ IQ can't figure out the most basic and sensible set of morals?

The higher one's IQ, the more easily one can produce convincing rationalizations to justify violating basic and sensible morals. That's why Man's worst killers have usually been more intelligent than average.

No, James, I won't...because I don't take my orders from imaginary sky gods.

Neither do I. The part that you omitted was that the scenario postulated the fact that the sky god giving the order was absolutely real and legitimate. So, the question is, would you obey an order from the real Creator God of the Universe if He revealed Himself to you in an absolutely 100 percent scientific manner that you could no more doubt than your own existence or the theory of evolution.

Blogger R. Bradley Andrews August 28, 2012 4:21 AM  

All homeschool kids aren't perfect. Ours certainly weren't. They all quit learning at about 16. I retroactively gave them all diplomas (only one cared) when I realized they all new as much or more than those who "graduated" from the government school nearby.

I am fully convinced we would have gone through a bunch more crap had they been in government schools. (They all had serious attachment issues that surfaced in the teen years.)

I would agree with the idea of doing college outside college for many/most. That is another stupid tradition that wastes a lot of money and achieve different goals than many parents intend.

I did succeed in spite of the government schools, but I would have done far better with some focused attention. I am sure I had far more potential than I achieved due to that education.

And yes, it is inherently corrupt. A factor model of Lord of the Flies education has inherent problems however many snowflake cases you bring up. North Korea has many clean areas too. That doesn't make them a good place, for example. The former Soviet Union was already mentioned as well.

I not that PPHS Dad did not address the low success percentage of the government system. (Note that it really is government schools, not public ones. Look at who is in control.)

Blogger R. Bradley Andrews August 28, 2012 4:42 AM  

That should say "factory model".

Anonymous zen0 August 28, 2012 5:55 AM  

Talk about defensive. My sister has had two arguments about home schooling (she is anti). Both times she got so agitated she increased her rate of drinking and eventually threw up.

Blogger IM2L844 August 28, 2012 6:45 AM  

Does this mean that most folks with a 130+ IQ can't figure out the most basic and sensible set of morals?

George, I would be interested in how you figured out what your most basic and sensible morals should be and exactly how you know they actually are indeed the most basic and sensible to begin with.

Blogger James Dixon August 28, 2012 7:05 AM  

> No, James, I won't...because I don't take my orders from imaginary sky gods.

So the government is now an imaginary sky god? Nice to know.

And yes, that's the literal meaning of what you posted. Now as to what you may have meant, I have no idea.

> Maybe the public school parents are a little defensive because...

Defensive because you're part of a vast majority and a small minority disagrees with you? No why would that be? Maybe because you have no way to refute the small minority's arguments?

Blogger James Dixon August 28, 2012 7:06 AM  

Now why... Sigh. If I could type...

Blogger Joshua_D August 28, 2012 7:31 AM  

Public/Private/Home School Dad August 27, 2012 11:24 PM

Here's the thing. Maybe the public school parents are a little defensive because they get weary of the "tsk, tsk" they encounter in many Christian circles where there is a lot of home schooling. "If you REALLY loved your kids and wanted God's best for them, blah blah blah."


First, I shouldn't have said "main point." The "defensive" issue isn't the main point, but I think it's very relevant.

I meant "defensive" in the sense that I don't feel the need to defend my decision to keep my children at home to be raised by my wife and I. If asked about my choice, I'll happily explain that choice, but I won't site an argue over it with anyone.

When it comes to public school, the people I know tend to get very defensive. The seem to need me to agree with their choice and acknowledge that it was a good choice. Now, I can understand why people make that choice, but I'm simply not going to agree that it's a good choice, or the best choice.

Anonymous Josh August 28, 2012 8:01 AM  

There are two kinds of parents.

Parents who homeschool, and parents who hate their children.

Blogger IM2L844 August 28, 2012 8:11 AM  

Does this mean that most folks with a 130+ IQ can't figure out the most basic and sensible set of morals?

Tell me, George, how did you figure out what your most basic and sensible morals should be and how, exactly, have you determined that they are in fact the most basic and the most sensible?

Anonymous Bobo August 28, 2012 8:29 AM  

George: "It has nothing to do with black or brown. It has to do with income. It's pretty simple."

Nope. It has to do with intellect, motivation and responsibility. I know plenty of people who attended school in 1940s/50s Eastern Europe, who grew up in squalor and made successes of themselves, ultimately emigrating and displacing Western trained professionals. These people had it far worse than any Ghetto kid.

From my own experience I know that money can be a major distraction. I know plenty of rich kids (now adults) who are doing far worse than their parents who started out at the bottom and build themselves up. Heck I even noticed this myself, when I was better off as a kid, I had less time to study and less motivation to do well.

Anonymous Bobo August 28, 2012 8:32 AM  

George said: "Everyone knows what freedom means. They even understand your version. Rather people choose to live an a community in which they are concerned with the greater good, rather than only their best interests."

Because they feel the greater good benefits them more? Irrespective of that, I think you must be a great mind reader.

Anonymous Public/Private/Home School Dad August 28, 2012 8:58 AM  

@Spacebunny Regarding Anecdotes
Can we not agree that VD frequently posts anecdotes about terrible things happening in public schools on this blog? And that this thread was started with an anecdote by Vox? I never said that only anecdotes were posted here. I've seen the statistics. It is just humorous that anecdotes only seem to carry weight in one direction around here. He posted an anecdote about a shooting. I posted some of my educational experiences. Your milage may vary.

Blogger James Dixon August 28, 2012 8:59 AM  

> It is just humorous that anecdotes only seem to carry weight in one direction around here.

Anecdotes backed by statistics. Where are your statistics?

Blogger James Dixon August 28, 2012 9:02 AM  

Hmm, my attempted post seems to have vanished. I'll try again.

> It is just humorous that anecdotes only seem to carry weight in one direction around here.

Anecdotes backed by statistics. Where are your statistics?

Oh, and whatever happened to the "IF it saves one child" argument. Funny how that only seems to carry weight in one direction.

Anonymous Public/Private/Home School Dad August 28, 2012 9:13 AM  

@Spacebunny Regarding Educational Statistics
If you have the time and are so inclined, I am curious about the 1 in 10 chance of being sexually abused at a public school. Source?

Anonymous scoobius dubious August 28, 2012 9:22 AM  

Does a white girl in a public school getting rudely sexually propositioned by black boys 30 or 40 times a day for her entire high school career count as any type of sexual abuse? Just curious.

Blogger SarahsDaughter August 28, 2012 9:51 AM  

"@Spacebunny Regarding Educational Statistics
If you have the time and are so inclined, I am curious about the 1 in 10 chance of being sexually abused at a public school. Source?"

Spacebunny, I've got google right here so I hope you don't mind if I answer for you:

http://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/research/pubs/misconductreview/report.pdf

Page 20: "3.2 Prevalence in the United States. As a group, these studies present a
wide range of estimates of the percentage of U.S. students subject to sexual misconduct by school staff and vary from 3.7 to 50.3 percent (Table 5). Because of its carefully drawn sample and survey methodology, the AAUW report that nearly 9.6 percent of students are targets of educator sexual misconduct sometime during their school career presents the most accurate data available at this time."

Anonymous The other skeptic August 28, 2012 9:59 AM  

Too many Americans don't want to depend on government

Anonymous scoobius dubious August 28, 2012 10:01 AM  

Great, well I think we should take a page from YKW's anti-Catholic Church playbook, and use this sexual abuse data to sue the teacher's unions, the Department of Education and its individual bureaucrats, the MLA, and individual public school systems, and screw them into bankruptcy via the courts. With any luck we can put members of the teacher's unions behind bars a la Jerry Sandusky, have their names ruined a la the other Penn State guy whose name I can't remember but which has been ruined, and force school districts to sell off those yummy high school campus real-estate parcels in order to pay off the victims' skyrocketing damages. Heck, maybe some of those school properties could even get bought up by the Catholic Church. Now, that would be hilarious.

Anonymous HH August 28, 2012 10:03 AM  

James Dixon says

"I consider understating the actual number by over 5 fold to be a significant error on your part. More importantly, since the link was readily obtainable with a simple Google search, it's also indicative of someone who can't be bothered to do their homework and whose other arguments therefore can't be trusted."

You clearly don't understand significance if you think there is statistical difference between the 3 or 16 in a population of 49 Million when compared to a number of 35000 in 300M...


"I'm claiming that you haven't provided any information to support your argument. See above about what that means. If you ever successfully make an argument, I'll consider whether it's worth trying to refute it. With proper evidence, I might even conclude that it's correct."

I really don't need you to agree with its correctness and will not jump through a bunch of hoops to prove what is an obvious conclusion -- it would be akin to you asking me to prove that the sun will rise tomorrow -- (it will).

"More like 300 million, over a 24 hour day versus a 7-8 hour school day. And a proper analysis would only deal with children in both situations."

Ok 35000 over 24 hrs vs 16 (your number) of 7 hrs -- but if you want to extend the school to 24 hrs -- thats 54 --- again my comment on not understanding significance is relevant.

"Saying this as politely as possible, you've got a lot of work to do then. But keep trying. You might make a convincing argument if you eliminate the errors. And since your figures don't match readily available ones, you might want to provide your sources."

Look -- these are back of envelope numbers that show a really strong conclusions that you can point at all day and argue about and be simply wrong. Depending on who's numbers you use (and if you read your link you would see that my number was within the definition defined for the larger number). The reality is that in 2007 somewhere between 3 and 16 kids were kill by guns while in school in the US, while at the same time period there were over 35000 people killed in the US --- I am sorry but the math clearly shows that you are less likely to get kill while in public school than out of school and there's no way anything you add to this can change that. The arguments you make against the math only show that (1) you don't understand what you criticize and (2) your trolling -- either way I bow to the wisdom of Twain.



Anonymous scoobius dubious August 28, 2012 10:10 AM  

"You clearly don't understand significance if you think there is statistical difference between the 3 or 16 in a population of 49 Million when compared to a number of 35000 in 300M..."

The real problem here is, the comparison is simply not a valid one. One element is the big bad world, where (virtually by definition) anything can happen. The other element is ostensibly a deliberately constructed "safe" and enclosed environment, which children (who are more vulnerable by definition than your average denizen of the Big Bad World) are compelled to be herded into, on the understanding that they will be "safe" while present.

It's like you're comparing the rate of malaria infections in all of West Africa, as opposed to malaria infections in an ICU incubator unit for pre-maturely born infants in Montreal: if even one malaria infection occurs in the latter, that's damn weird.

Anonymous FREEDOM LOVER! Om Shanti Om August 28, 2012 10:39 AM  

A question and a point:

Question;

What do the homeschooling parents here consider "success" wrt their children's education and subsequent adult pursuits?

Point;

"No, James, I won't...because I don't take my orders from imaginary sky gods."

"Neither do I. The part that you omitted was that the scenario postulated the fact that the sky god giving the order was absolutely real and legitimate. So, the question is, would you obey an order from the real Creator God of the Universe if He revealed Himself to you in an absolutely 100 percent scientific manner that you could no more doubt than your own existence or the theory of evolution."

No, I would not follow such order even if the postulation were true, for it assumes benevolence on part of the Creator God. Who's to say such a God is benevolent?

Blogger James Dixon August 28, 2012 10:45 AM  

> You clearly don't understand significance if you think there is statistical difference between the 3 or 16 in a population of 49 Million when compared to a number of 35000 in 300M...

I understand both statistical significance and the significance of someone who dramatically understates or overstates their figures to demonstrate their point.

> ...and will not jump through a bunch of hoops to prove what is an obvious conclusion..

Obvious to you, perhaps. But see my earlier comments.

> The reality is that in 2007 somewhere between 3 and 16 kids were kill by guns while in school in the US, while at the same time period there were over 35000 people killed in the US

And again, how many of those were children? Comparing apples to oranges doesn't cut it here.

> The arguments you make against the math only show that (1) you don't understand what you criticize and (2) your trolling --

If you say so. I'm a fairly long time commenter here. The others know whether I'm trolling or not and something of my background. They can decide the matter for themselves. Just as you feel no need to prove anything to my satisfaction, I have no need to prove anything to yours.

Anonymous kh123 August 28, 2012 11:13 AM  

Besides the fact of shootings, assaults, sexual abuse, or general neglect - just what is the quality of education on average at public schools. In comparison to, say, 60 years ago, or the rest of the current world for that matter.

If it's tip-top, then why are the same classes in the basics provided for freshmen at college and Uni, which reportedly have a turn around time of 12 weeks to teach kids what was supposed to have been solidified over 12 years time.

And since any of the aforementioned crimes at the beginning of the comment are apparent aberrations in the normal process of public education, just what were they, say, 60 years ago, or even 30, when budgets and public funding - after adjustment for inflation - were presumably much lower.

Because, you know; caveat emptor and all.

Feel free to add this to my previous questions, PPSH Dad. Whenever you have time.

Anonymous oregon mouse August 28, 2012 11:25 AM  

Call me anti-academic or what have you, but are the statistics really that important once you are familiar with the rules of the game? I mean I know they matter as a means of proving whether the results produced by the rules are working but the rules of public school systems seem to really speak for themselves. 1. a child can be disrespectfull and entirely disruptive and the teacher cannot effectively discipline that child or even remove him from the class. 2. short of outright assault, a child can get away with all kinds of bullying behavior without being expelled. 3. short of a felony conviction, you can't remove an ineffective, incompetent teacher. 4. children who have no aptitude for the one-size fits all curriculum are given no outlet to go into the work force and make their own path (child labor laws infantilize young adults. 4. unless the child has aptitude for college or some sort of trade school, a highschool diploma is only good for menial, low wage work.

Anonymous Mrs. Pilgrim August 28, 2012 11:34 AM  

It's a little ironic to make a post about public schools and use "have began" in it.

Oh, I KNOW, isn't it? I mean, after all, I still split an infinitive myself from time to time.

...But then again, I didn't know what a split infinitive was and why it was incorrect until I looked it up for myself. My honors-level English classes from the public high school didn't cover them. That might be because the teachers were too busy having us draw pictures of our favorite scenes from the novels we were assigned--but illiterate as we might have been, we were amply prepared to pursue a degree in Fingerpainting! Mission accomplished!

MY POINT: I think you'll find, as will most of the part-time incarceration advocates, that those of us who emerged from the public-school system with a reasonable education typically acquired it by our own, independent efforts.

Anonymous scoobius dubious August 28, 2012 11:41 AM  

My chances of getting shot in the cockpit of an Airbus A380 are substantially lower than my chances of getting shot in a black neighborhood in Philadelphia on a Saturday night. But if I _do_ somehow get shot in the plane cockpit, that sort of indicates that a system-wide soul-searching is rather in order, wouldn't you say? Whereas with the Philadelphia shooting we collectively shrug and say, what did you expect?

What does one say about a system that effectively requires children, by law, to share the cockpit of the Airbus with the denizens of a late-night Philadelphia house party, and just sort of shrug and hope nothing goes wrong? Unless one can somehow contrive to buy their way out of it, like during the Civil War draft.

What does it say that American children are required by law to spend the better part of their childhoods in a building which requires metal detectors at the doors to enter; and then once inside, they are relentlessly programmed, again by law, to assume that the easily-identified subset of people whose easily-identified sociopathy is the precise cause of the need for the metal detectors in the first place, are somehow also exactly the very same ones whom they are required to assume are safe, trustworthy, harmless, their equals in every way, and also (if you're a white girl) to be preferred as sex partners?

What sort of lunacy is that?

Blogger Joshua_D August 28, 2012 12:26 PM  

scoobius dubious August 28, 2012 11:41 AM

What sort of lunacy is that?


Lunacy rarely recognizes itself in the mirror, scoobius.

I mean, I know what you're saying, and agree. But I'm not insane, so I have an advantage.

Anonymous Public/Private/Home School Dad August 28, 2012 1:05 PM  

@SarahsDaughter
Thanks for the link. I'm reading through the study. These lines have stood out so far:
"The overwhelming majority of America’s educators are true professionals doing what might be called
the “essential” work of democracy. The vast majority of schools in America are safe places."
Again, thanks for the study...

@kh123
You asked:
"Would you take your own kids to a pediatrics ward if there were any - not to mention repeated - instances of neglect or physical harm done to children there? Would you recommend others to take their kids there, much less on a regular basis?"

I said I would give your question its due and I did. I'm not to interested in your hypotheticals. If you want to reform your question into something less apples and orangey, I would be glad to engage it more. The short answer is "No" I wouldn't take my kids to a pediatrician that was known for hurting children. Proceed with your "gotcha!"

You said:
"If it's tip-top, then why are the same classes in the basics provided for freshmen at college and Uni, which reportedly have a turn around time of 12 weeks to teach kids what was supposed to have been solidified over 12 years time."

Let's not forget colleges have a financial incentive to require freshmen to take expensive courses that don't count for credit. But I'm sure you have statistics that show home school kids NEVER have to take such classes...


Blogger Joshua_D August 28, 2012 1:21 PM  

Public/Private/Home School Dad August 28, 2012 1:05 PM

Let's not forget colleges have a financial incentive to require freshmen to take expensive courses that don't count for credit.


And ... let's not forget that Public School Systems have incentives to require children to enter their institution as soon as possible. I mean, how do you think public schools get their funding? The more children in public schools, the more funding for the public school system and the more secure your public school paycheck.

Blogger SarahsDaughter August 28, 2012 1:31 PM  

"These lines have stood out so far:
'The overwhelming majority of America’s educators are true professionals doing what might be called the “essential” work of democracy. The vast majority of schools in America are safe places.'" - PPHSD

Next on PPHSD's syllabus: "Hitler's great roads."

Anonymous kh123 August 28, 2012 1:42 PM  

"I said I would give your question its due and I did."

Really. This is the first response I've seen. Several questions up there, feel free to take them on at your leisure - specifically the more recent ones about budgets vs. increased crime and violence at schools.

"I'm not to interested in your hypotheticals."

But we're all ears for your anecdotes - not that you addressed any of ours other than to point to those distant, distant inner cities in the heart of darkness and say "Not MY school district!" (Wasn't mine either, by the way.) But please, continue.

"Proceed with your "gotcha!""

No need to; you've hoisted yourself on your petard pretty well by this point.

Anonymous kh123 August 28, 2012 1:44 PM  

"But I'm sure you have statistics that show home school kids NEVER have to take such classes..."

No need to, since - in your hypothetical - homeschool kids don't require a publicly funded budget to be mismanaged by a state institution for 12 years.

Anonymous kh123 August 28, 2012 1:53 PM  

Interestingly, you skipped over questions regarding the level and quality of education (or violence) vs. several decades ago, or vs. the industrial world at large. It's right above and below the one question you took a shot at.

Blogger R. Bradley Andrews August 28, 2012 2:32 PM  

Freedom Lover: My view of success for our children was that they lived to be somewhat productive adults. Ours were taken from a really rough birth home at an early age and accomplishing that was substantially ahead of what they would have done without us in their lives.

Note the goal I started out aiming at, but it will do. Certainly better than having them get all the "socialization" in the government schools.

Blogger The Aardvark August 28, 2012 2:43 PM  

Let's face it, this was the guy that noted he'd happily kill toddlers if his Sky God told him to: http://voxday.blogspot.com/2007/02/mailvox-sharpening-knives.html

After all this time, they still don't get it....

Anonymous Public/Private/Home School Dad August 28, 2012 3:09 PM  

@hf123
"I said I would give your question its due and I did."

"Really. This is the first response I've seen. Several questions up there, feel free to take them on at your leisure - specifically the more recent ones about budgets vs. increased crime and violence at schools."

I did give it its due. I previously ignored it because it is a dumb question. It is a terrible analogy that I could see where you are going from a mile away. I am under no obligation to answer stupid questions...

Regarding budgets and violence and whatnot-
The public school is a bloated mismanaged inefficient dinosaur. Yup, there are incidents of violence and worse. For the record, I am not here saying that home schooling is bad and public schooling is good. Vox chummed the water with a story of a school shooting and the declaration that sending your child to public school is child abuse.
Good for him! I disagree. I’ve seen a lot of good kids with good teachers in good schools get good educations. [I’ve also seen home school done terribly in a way that is borderline child abuse in its own right.]

So to disagree with public school=child abuse I need to prove that public schooling is better than home schooling according to some of you here? That's a wonky requirement considering that is not what I am arguing at all. Spare me all of the pro-home schooling stats and con-public school stats. They don't affect me much considering that isn't what I am arguing.

From the beginning, all I have said is that there are pros/cons to all three educational options and people need to evaluate the needs of their children and the educational options available and see what works best for their family. I've been in education enough to see the good/bad/ugly in ALL THREE. In most circles that would be considered a fairly balanced rational perspective, but here it seems only unqualified affirmation of Home School! and unqualified rejection of public school passes for educational dialogue.

PS: @SarahsDaughter:
Your Hitler comment is duly noted and proves the adage that once your opponent invokes Hitler, you have won the argument. I’m sorry that the study YOU cited literally stated at the outset the very thing that I have argued from the beginning:
"The overwhelming majority of America’s educators are true professionals doing what might be called the “essential” work of democracy. The vast majority of schools in America are safe places." And I would encourage any interested parties to actually read the study. It definitely does not support the statement by Spacebunny that “your child has a 1 in 10 chance of getting sexually abused by a school employee.”

Blogger SarahsDaughter August 28, 2012 3:34 PM  

It may not be the source Spacebunny got her statement from. It was the government study that I found. Please tell me, how does "Because of its carefully drawn sample and survey methodology, the AAUW report that nearly 9.6 percent of students are targets of educator sexual misconduct sometime during their school career presents the most accurate data available at this time." not support the statement that a child has a 1 in 10 chance of getting sexually abused by a school employee?

Blogger James Dixon August 28, 2012 4:08 PM  

> After all this time, they still don't get it....

And never will. It's completely beyond them.

> I am under no obligation to answer stupid questions...

Not true by the rules of the blog (see the link in the top left corner). You can answer them in pretty much any manner your wish, including a manner that indicates just how stupid you think they are, but you do have to answer them if the rule is invoked.

> I am not here saying that home schooling is bad and public schooling is good.

People could be forgiven for assuming that, given your posts.

> So to disagree with public school=child abuse I need to prove that public schooling is better than home schooling according to some of you here?

No. You simply need to show that there is no reasonable expectation that a child will be abused while in school. Sounds easy enough, doesn't it? But then you run into the percentage of male children being drugged by their school, the sexual abuse by both teachers and other students, the rampant physical violence, etc.; and the job becomes a bit harder.

Anonymous FREEDOM LOVER! Om Shanti Om August 28, 2012 4:23 PM  

"What does it say that American children are REQUIRED BY LAW to spend the better part of their childhoods in a building which requires metal detectors at the doors to enter"

Americans are not required by law to send their kids to school. That's why homeschooling exists here, and is thriving as an industry.

R. Bradley Andrews,

You're expectations are reasonable. What I find laughable is homeschooling parents who are under the delusion that their special little snowflakes are going to go on to become the next Einstein or even Steve Jobs.

I know a lot of home schooled kids, A LOT. Out of all of us only one that I know of is a financially wealthy business owner.

The rest of us are performing average and below average in all areas of our lives.

I'm not knocking it because I share many of my parents' "hippie values" (that's what 2 of my siblings who dont share them calls them), so for me wealth and status doesn't mean a whole helluva lot, but it ironically does for many other home school parents. They use mainstream wealth and status as markers of "successfully home schooled children", which I find ironic.



Blogger SarahsDaughter August 28, 2012 4:40 PM  

Freedom Lover, is this how you were educated?

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Parenting/unschooling-homeschooling-book-tests-classes/story?id=10410867

Anonymous Mrs. Pilgrim August 28, 2012 4:55 PM  

Oh, lawsy, is this guy still going on?

The public school is a bloated mismanaged inefficient dinosaur. Yup, there are incidents of violence and worse.

"But send your kids to it anyway. Odds are they probably won't be raped or murdered, and whatever education they don't get probably wasn't important anyway, because all the teachers I know are really really smart and nice when they know I'm watching them. Occasional good results, even if they're not consistent, proves that the system really works."

I’ve seen a lot of good kids with good teachers in good schools get good educations. [I’ve also seen home school done terribly in a way that is borderline child abuse in its own right.]

"Characterizing the exceptions as the rule in both cases will surely be enough to get me by in this discussion."

So to disagree with public school=child abuse I need to prove that public schooling is better than home schooling according to some of you here? That's a wonky requirement considering that is not what I am arguing at all.

"It's not faiiiiir that you're calling me out on my saying you're all wrong and putting you upon your proof."

Spare me all of the pro-home schooling stats and con-public school stats.

"You proved me wrong, and instead of acknowledging that, pound for pound, homeschooling is not only superior for instruction but also much safer for the students than public school, I'm just going to pout and tell you all to shut up and stop making sense."

They don't affect me much considering that isn't what I am arguing.

"What I'm arguing is that you're not the boss of me, and also that you have rabies. Now apologize for calling me an abusive parent, dammit; insults were uncalled for."

From the beginning, all I have said is that there are pros/cons to all three educational options and people need to evaluate the needs of their children and the educational options available and see what works best for their family. I've been in education enough to see the good/bad/ugly in ALL THREE. In most circles that would be considered a fairly balanced rational perspective, but here it seems only unqualified affirmation of Home School! and unqualified rejection of public school passes for educational dialogue.

"I've been there, done that, and [I'm assuming] YOUUUUUU HAVEN'T. That should intimidate you into acknowledging that, despite your independent statistics, research, and personal experiences (whatever they might be), I am better informed and also much nicer than you are."

Your Hitler comment is duly noted and proves the adage that once your opponent invokes Hitler, you have won the argument.

"Ooh, Godwin's Law. Hurray, now I don't have to take seriously anything she says! I'm so glad they don't teach logic anymore, or else I might have been in trouble there."

I’m sorry that the study YOU cited literally stated at the outset the very thing that I have argued from the beginning:
"The overwhelming majority of America’s educators are true professionals doing what might be called the “essential” work of democracy. The vast majority of schools in America are safe places."


"I'm not aware that many people believe they have to start out with a polite semi-retraction before pressing forward with a fact that is not politically correct (e.g., 'There are many women quite good with math and science, but most women are not')."

And I would encourage any interested parties to actually read the study. It definitely does not support the statement by Spacebunny that “your child has a 1 in 10 chance of getting sexually abused by a school employee.”

"Stop reminding me that the system I put my kids in isn't what I've been led to believe."

Blogger Joshua_D August 28, 2012 5:05 PM  

Mrs. Pilgrim,

You're a mind reader! A rabid mind reader, but a mind read nonetheless.

Blogger SarahsDaughter August 28, 2012 5:16 PM  

It's not surprising that PPHSD is unaware of when Godwin's law applies. I don't expect him to be able to discern metaphors.

Anonymous kh123 August 28, 2012 5:35 PM  

"It is a terrible analogy that I could see where you are going from a mile away. I am under no obligation to answer stupid questions..."

The above answer speaks for itself. Plus the fact that you apparently can't - or are unwilling to - connect the dots between what is, on one hand, an unacceptable amount of violence or negligence in a kid-centered institution (pediatrics ward), and on the other, an apparently acceptable degree of the same in public education. Intentional poisoning is apparently off-limits in Michelin Star Restaurants, but quite alright in school cafeterias.

The fact that you or loved ones are intimately involved in the latter institution bears nothing on this disconnect, nor the heated, hypothetical, and anecdotal defense you've allowed us all to enjoy these past few days. Verboten for all the rest of us to use, of course.

"So to disagree with public school=child abuse I need to prove that public schooling is better than home schooling according to some of you here? "

You're quite free to either a). present actual stats to counter questions regarding quality of education/violence vs. budgets over several decades, or b). not say anything. The fact that you're forwarding "it's not all that bad" means, as before, you're willing to let some eggs get crushed in order for the public to continue funding the grand Dewey Omelet of edumacation. Good for you.

Perhaps we should brand kids with lumpenstudenten right from the get-go. That way, no one can sue later down the road for lack of disclaimers - better than fine print after all. It has the additional advantage of keeping the cat safely in the bag, since none of the kids would understand what the hell it says anyway.

Anonymous FREEDOM LOVER! Om Shanti Om August 28, 2012 6:10 PM  

Sarah's Daughter, no. I was home schooled with a schedule to follow and was provided with the most wonderful oppurtunities of living in foreign countries and downloading various cultural traditions and ideas. I do not resent my parents choices but 2 of my siblings do.

Blogger Joshua_D August 28, 2012 6:47 PM  

FREEDOM LOVER! Om Shanti Om August 28, 2012 4:23 PM

Americans are not required by law to send their kids to school. That's why homeschooling exists here, and is thriving as an industry.


There are only a few states in the USA that do not require any notification. Other states requires some notification and testing, and still other states require that homeschool parents teach certain information.

You're expectations are reasonable. What I find laughable is homeschooling parents who are under the delusion that their special little snowflakes are going to go on to become the next Einstein or even Steve Jobs.

What homeschooling parent expects that other than in the sense that all parents hope their children succeed?

I know a lot of home schooled kids, A LOT. Out of all of us only one that I know of is a financially wealthy business owner

The rest of us are performing average and below average in all areas of our lives.


Such is the state of Man. We are all mostly average. The value in homeschooling, in my opinion, isn't that your children will be smarter on averge, which they will. The value is that you raise your children. My wife and I teach our children. We get to spend time with them and raise them up in the way they should go. We don't farm out their "raising" to day care workers and public school teachers. There is so much more to it than just "education." It's about being a family.

Anonymous Noah B. August 28, 2012 6:47 PM  

"Intentional poisoning is apparently off-limits in Michelin Star Restaurants, but quite alright in school cafeterias."

I had never thought of it this way, but socialism is to blame for the horrible cafeteria food. Since there are kids whose parents supposedly can't afford decent food (while mostly they have money for booze, bling, cell phones, and cable), the schools serve the same crap to all students in the name of equality. To avoid accusations of discrimination, better food isn't available at any price.

Anonymous George August 28, 2012 7:11 PM  

James said:

"> No, James, I won't...because I don't take my orders from imaginary sky gods.

So the government is now an imaginary sky god? Nice to know.

And yes, that's the literal meaning of what you posted. Now as to what you may have meant, I have no idea."

James, Take the tin foil hat off. It's easier to understand you when you do.

Anonymous Public/Private/Home School Dad August 28, 2012 7:49 PM  

Josh said:
"Such is the state of Man. We are all mostly average. The value in homeschooling, in my opinion, isn't that your children will be smarter on averge, which they will. The value is that you raise your children. My wife and I teach our children. We get to spend time with them and raise them up in the way they should go. We don't farm out their "raising" to day care workers and public school teachers. There is so much more to it than just "education." It's about being a family."

Finally! We have a winner! THANK YOU for just coming out and saying it man- you are a superior Christian, a better father, you have smarter kids and yours is a better family, obviously because you Home School! Your candor is incredibly refreshing. Pilgrim has her rhetorical witty charms and kh123 has his pedantic sophistry and little sarahsdaughter tries and tries, BUT you just nailed it. Thank you! I mean it. I know others here THINK it, but you just came out and finally SAID it. Bravo. Way to absolutize a choice you made for your family and use it as the yardstick by which to judge all others. You win!

Anonymous kh123 August 28, 2012 7:57 PM  

"...pedantic sophistry..."

To be fair, I should've realized that asking for education standards or school violence statistic comparisons for the past several decades isn't straight forward enough for a civil servant to wrap their brain around. Crying anecdotal foul and using CAPS! is apparently the teachers' union preferred method. Good to know.

Anonymous Redlegben August 28, 2012 8:22 PM  

George, it is obvious that you are either intentionally obtuse or an idiot. You have been walked through enough logic to make it clear you are one or the other.

Anonymous Redlegben August 28, 2012 8:24 PM  

Not George, sorry wrong idiot. PPHS Dad. There got it right.

Blogger SarahsDaughter August 28, 2012 8:41 PM  

Freedom Lover, what countries did you live in? I think it is so beneficial for children to be able to live in other cultures. Not many get the opportunity.

Anonymous FREEDOM LOVER! Om Shanti Om August 28, 2012 9:13 PM  

Nepal, India, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, and Singapore. It was awesome and I still do it.

Anonymous Wendy August 28, 2012 9:20 PM  

PPHS: I know...

Really? I don't think you do.

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