ALL BLOG POSTS AND COMMENTS COPYRIGHT (C) 2003-2014 VOX DAY. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. REPRODUCTION WITHOUT WRITTEN PERMISSION IS EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED.

Monday, September 24, 2012

Iran vs Israel

One has to give credit where it is due.  For all of his observable anti-Americanism, Obama nevertheless appears to be doing a better job of giving priority to American interests on the foreign affairs front than George W. Bush, John McCain, or Mitt Romney:
As debkafile reported after that Obama snub, the wrangling with Washington has reduced Netanyahu’s options to start standing alone and making his own decisions. Obama’s latest words underline this. The prime minister can no longer avoid his most fateful decision and one that is critical to Israel’s survival: to attack Iran and disrupt its nuclear program or live with an anti-Semitic nuclear Iran dedicated to the destruction of the Jewish state and a threat to world stability.

For two weeks, the Israeli prime minister has dodged and ducked around the White House message. Instead, he has kept on bombarding Washington with high-powered messengers. They all came back with the same tidings: the US President is not only fed up with Israeli pressure but more determined than evade any military engagement with Iran.
The hostilities between Iran and Israel certainly have the potential to be dangerous, but neither country are a direct national security interest of the United States.  Neither is a military ally and both countries could perish in a mutual nuclear conflagration and it wouldn't effect the USA in the slightest.  If Israel decides to attack Iran, or if Iran decides to attack Israel, the only concern of the USA should be to prevent the war from going regional by keeping the Sunni Arab nations out of the conflict.  Given the fact that Israel has no serious allies and most of Iran's neighbors are varying degrees of hostile towards both Israel and the Shi'ite Persians of Iran, there is little reason to believe that a war between them is likely to draw in a substantial number of third parties.

Nor should anyone take the hysterical posturing by American Jews about the potential for a second Holocaust if the USA does not intervene seriously.  Ehud Barak, the Israeli Minister of Defense, has estimated that a war with Iran would last one month and cost Israel around 500 dead.  In a worst case scenario.

Labels:

125 Comments:

Anonymous Seriously... September 24, 2012 9:17 AM  

Given the fact that Israel has no serious allies and most of Iran's neighbors are varying degrees of hostile towards both Israel and the Shi'ite Persians of Iran, there is little reason to believe that a war between them is likely to draw in a substantial number of third parties.

I have to disagree with you there Vox. They are still Muslims and the Jews are a common enemy to all of them regardless of which side of Islam they fall on. I see no reason why they would not back Iran in a conflict.

Blogger Vidad, AKA David the Good September 24, 2012 9:31 AM  

This is the best news we've had out of this regime in a long time. Of course, it's just going to make the Dispensationalists freak out and go further towards Romney.

OMG ISRAEL!!! OMG!

Anonymous VD September 24, 2012 9:38 AM  

They are still Muslims and the Jews are a common enemy to all of them regardless of which side of Islam they fall on. I see no reason why they would not back Iran in a conflict.

Even the fact that they've shown no signs of doing so for the last five years? The Israelis don't expect any Arab involvement and yet you do? Why do you think you know more about it than the IDF and the Mossad?

Anonymous Josh September 24, 2012 9:42 AM  

Vox, why do you hate the Jews? And the children? And the Jew children?

Anonymous dh September 24, 2012 9:47 AM  

> Ehud Barak, the Israeli Minister of Defense, has estimated that a war with Iran would last one month
> and cost Israel around 500 dead. In a worst case scenario.

Of course this is a lie, but who knows. Israel, without the US, can't disrupt the program for more than a year anyways.

Anonymous hygate September 24, 2012 9:49 AM  

Concerning the second holocaust scenario, I always assumed that the thinking was that if Iran had nuclear weapons, it would use them against Israel. You both discount the impact that a "nuclear conflagration" would have on the U.S. and then assume that it isn't going to happen anyway when you discuss a worst case scenario of 500 dead.

I disagree that a nuclear conflagration is not going to effect the United States. We are looking at radioactive fallout, millions of refugees, all out warfare in the region as different nations/factions begin to compete against each other for habitable land and drinkable water (even more so than now), skyrocketing energy prices (again, even more so than now), a world wide economic crash (and yet again, even more so than now.)

So my question is, how can a nuclear war (regardless of who fights it, Pakistan vs India for example) not have world wide repercussions?

Anonymous Josh September 24, 2012 9:55 AM  

Iran is not going to nuke Israel. They're trying to acquire nukes so that the us doesn't invade them in an attempt to install a democracy.

They've learned from history.

Saddam ended his weapons program, was invaded, deposed.

Gaddafi ended his weapons program, was bombed, deposed.

Pakistan has nukes, has not been invaded, and receives billions in aid from the us.

Besides, bibi has been saying for twenty years that Iran is on the verge of getting nukes.

Blogger stats September 24, 2012 9:58 AM  

"You both discount the impact that a "nuclear conflagration" would have on the U.S."
What? Iran has no nuclear weapons, nor is it clear that they have decided to build a nuclear weapon. The only nation in the Middle East that could start a nuclear conflagration is Israel. And it would be one sided at that.

Real US interest are opposed to Israel's. US needs stability so that the oil keeps flowing. Israel wants confusion and instability in the region for strategic reasons. Israeli tail has been wagging the US dog for much too long.

Blogger Hamilton September 24, 2012 10:00 AM  

But aren't Christians supposed to back Israel no matter what? It's in the Bible, right?

Anonymous Josh September 24, 2012 10:03 AM  

But aren't Christians supposed to back Israel no matter what? It's in the Bible, right?

I know this is sarcasm, but no, it's not in the Bible.

Anonymous dh September 24, 2012 10:04 AM  

> So my question is, how can a nuclear war (regardless of who fights it, Pakistan vs India for example)
> not have world wide repercussions?

If Iran is nuclear, and we attack them in concert with Israel, the US would be a justified military target. And the government in Iran would have every legitimate right to assume that the military invasion by a superior force is an existential threat.

Anonymous hygate September 24, 2012 10:13 AM  

"What? Iran has no nuclear weapons, nor is it clear that they have decided to build a nuclear weapon."

This is non-responsive to the question. Vox postulated that a nuclear conflagration between Iran and Israel would not effect the US in any way. I contend that given such a scenario the fall out from such an event would have world wide consequences for all people. The question was not does Iran have nuclear weapons and/or is it trying to acquire nuclear weapons, it was what would be the consequences if it did and used them.

Blogger Fred September 24, 2012 10:19 AM  

One fault with your logic-it omits the omninous fact that Gods hand will be completely removed if we abandon Israel. I agree we must not encourage them to attack Iran, but should help defend if attacked.
To not do this is to open the hand of Gods judgment against Amerika the day after we abandon Israel.
You can not call yourself a real believer in Christ, and believe that we should abandon the chosen of God.

Josh is wrong. Every country that has opposed Israel has been destroyed without exception. Notice I didnt say that God didnt allow Israel to be punished. Jacob I have loved Esau I have hated. For starters:
Ps 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem! “May they be secure who love you! One would venture the opposite is also true.

I agree we have allowed Israel to wag Amerikas tail but abandoning them is writing our death certificate. It doesnt matter if you believe it, it is true nonetheless.

I believe the Word of God more than what any government says.

Anonymous Lysander Spooner September 24, 2012 10:25 AM  

@ Fred:

"Gods hand will be completely removed if we abandon Israel. "


Damn, son, you have serious Daddy issues.

Please 'splain how one abandons a duplicitous, traitorous parasite like Israel.

Blogger Random September 24, 2012 10:25 AM  

Fred, please remember that the old covenant is fulfilled in the new.

In Christ we are the new Israel, heirs according to the promises of God to Abraham.

The secular nation-state known as "Israel" has nothing to do theologically with the promises you reference.

Blogger stats September 24, 2012 10:25 AM  

"Gods hand will be completely removed if we abandon Israel." Yeah, according to a number of mega-church pastor's interpretation of the bible. But this is not by any stretch a unanimous interpretation. So we've got to start WWIII because John Haggee says so? I say no. John and his congregation of sillies in San Antonio can all take a flying leap.

Anonymous The other skeptic September 24, 2012 10:28 AM  


You can not call yourself a real believer in Christ, and believe that we should abandon the chosen of God.


I find it strange that God chose those who reject salvation through Jesus Christ.

Perhaps I am misinterpreting you here.

Blogger Vox September 24, 2012 10:29 AM  

One fault with your logic-it omits the omninous fact that Gods hand will be completely removed if we abandon Israel.

Your argument makes no sense. First, we can't "abandon" Israel. They're not even our ally now. Second, "abandoning" Israel is not "opposing" Israel. The USA isn't going to attack Israel.

Third, how can you look around you and fail to conclude that God has not already allowed the USA to go its own way and sink into sin?

Blogger Lucas September 24, 2012 10:29 AM  

Vox,
But Obama is not focusing on national interests because he cares for the USA; he does that because he has a soft spot for muslims, and a huge dislike for Israel.

But anyway [OT], Australia rejects vibrancy:

That the Senate: (a) notes the contribution to Australia's vibrant multicultural society by citizens of all cultures and religions
I couldn't help but laugh at the sight of the very same word you use in here.

Anonymous The other skeptic September 24, 2012 10:31 AM  


Ehud Barak, the Israeli Minister of Defense, has estimated that a war with Iran would last one month and cost Israel around 500 dead. In a worst case scenario.


Weren't similar estimates put forward when the US entered the fray in Vietnam?

Anonymous paradox September 24, 2012 10:35 AM  

You can not call yourself a real believer in Christ, and believe that we should abandon the chosen of God.

Nigga please... God's chosen are those who are part of His church, not some group of witchcraft Kabbalist who reject His Son.

Blogger stats September 24, 2012 10:41 AM  

"But Obama is not focusing on national interests because he cares for the USA; he does that because he has a soft spot for muslims, and a huge dislike for Israel."

I'm always curious about this claim by neo-cons. What evidence is there that Obama hates Israel? Yes, he refused to meet with crazy uncle bibi recently but he has always been a fine and loyal supplicant to AIPAC in the past. He had a dual-citizen Israeli soldier as his chief of staff and he was more than eager to implement sanctions against Iran and send battle ships to the Gulf to intimidate them. Where is the evidence that he "hates" Israel?

Anonymous OMG ISRAEL!!! September 24, 2012 10:43 AM  

One fault with your logic-it omits the omninous fact that Gods hand will be completely removed if we abandon Israel. I agree we must not encourage them to attack Iran, but should help defend if attacked.
To not do this is to open the hand of Gods judgment against Amerika the day after we abandon Israel.
You can not call yourself a real believer in Christ, and believe that we should abandon the chosen of God.

Josh is wrong. Every country that has opposed Israel has been destroyed without exception. Notice I didnt say that God didnt allow Israel to be punished. Jacob I have loved Esau I have hated. For starters:
Ps 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem! “May they be secure who love you! One would venture the opposite is also true.

I agree we have allowed Israel to wag Amerikas tail but abandoning them is writing our death certificate. It doesnt matter if you believe it, it is true nonetheless.

I believe the Word of God more than what any government says.


OMG ISRAEL!!! OMG!

There, fixed it for you

Anonymous Boetain September 24, 2012 10:45 AM  

The U.S. is like the aging broke parents who still let all of the grown children live in the house and eat all of the food that is bought on credit. Better for all involved if the coddling stops and the children have to face the world on their own two feet.

btw...didn't Israel put their big kid pants on and knock out Iraq's and Syria's nuke programs with airstrikes? So they can do the same to Iran if they feel like it.

Blogger Lucas September 24, 2012 10:46 AM  

stats,

I'm always curious about this claim by neo-cons.

I am always curious about this attitude of qualifying as neo-cons people who have a diference of opinion.

What evidence is there that Obama hates Israel?


None whatsoever, I guess. But then again, I never said that Obama hates Israel.

Yes, he refused to meet with crazy uncle bibi recently but he has always been a fine and loyal supplicant to AIPAC in the past.
Suplicant for votes, you mean? Is that you argument? "Obama doesn't hate Israel because he always begs for the jewish vote".

Actually, he doesn't have to beg much.

He had a dual-citizen Israeli soldier as his chief of staff and he was more than eager to implement sanctions against Iran and send battle ships to the Gulf to intimidate them.

Define "more than eager".

Blogger Rhology September 24, 2012 10:54 AM  

Vox said:
Ehud Barak, the Israeli Minister of Defense, has publicly said, in a statement intended for public consumption which includes the Iranian government and armed forces, that a war with Iran would last one month and cost Israel around 500 dead. In a worst case scenario. Again, in a statement he made to a news agency.

Fixed it for you.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 September 24, 2012 10:57 AM  

This will certainly get conservatives' panties all in a wad. They are pro-American, except when Israel's interests supersede our own. Then it's antisemitic to oppose them.

Blogger stats September 24, 2012 11:06 AM  

"Huge dislike" approximately equals hate, but fine, you never said "hate". "Neo-con" conservative in name only, has one agenda, Israel. Usually dual citizens, Jews with one god and one god only, Israel, and silly ass mega-church acolytes that call themselves Christian Zionists. I'm guessing you fit neatly into one of these categories. But if you don't, hey, sue me.

Supplicant for votes? Yes, but how is it you've determined that he is a vote monger that secretly "hugely dislikes" Israel?

"More than eager" = more than eager. Got it? What exactly is it you neo-cons want, anyway? He has done everything you want, short of starting WWIII. But he has to do it with a shit-eating grin on his face before you believe he doesn't hate Israel?

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 September 24, 2012 11:06 AM  

One fault with your logic-it omits the omninous fact that Gods hand will be completely removed if we abandon Israel. I agree we must not encourage them to attack Iran, but should help defend if attacked.
To not do this is to open the hand of Gods judgment against Amerika the day after we abandon Israel.
You can not call yourself a real believer in Christ, and believe that we should abandon the chosen of God.

Josh is wrong. Every country that has opposed Israel has been destroyed without exception. Notice I didnt say that God didnt allow Israel to be punished. Jacob I have loved Esau I have hated. For starters:
Ps 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem! “May they be secure who love you! One would venture the opposite is also true.

I agree we have allowed Israel to wag Amerikas tail but abandoning them is writing our death certificate. It doesnt matter if you believe it, it is true nonetheless.

I believe the Word of God more than what any government says.


Do you not know that God can make children of Abraham from the stones?

The current nation of Israel has more to fear from God than the past one. They are just as degenerate as when the servant of God, Nebuchadnezzar the King of Babylon, carried off King Zedekiah and had his eyes removed.

Currently, the nation of Israel refuses to even rebuild the temple that King Solomon originally built and was restored when the remnant returned after their exiled. They have yet to dig up the original temple site or to restore their religion.

So while I appreciate your concern, I don't think you've paid all the much attention to what God really says about Israel nor have you thoroughly read the Old Testament.

As for the United States, there was no covenant with God when it was established. As such, we are not under His judgment in the same way that Israel was. We are simply another nation, that is all.

Lastly, Israel is not our ally. There is no official treaty making it so. They are simple a friendly nation (for the most part) and beyond that, we are under no obligation to defend them if they are attacked.

I do agree though that Israel will not go easily. They have 300-400 nuclear weapons ready to be deployed, so I doubt that even if the whole Muslim host in the Middle East could stand against them, considering there is only one nation there with maybe one nuclear bomb.

Blogger Markku September 24, 2012 11:08 AM  

Careful what you vote for, you just might get it, Jews learn.

Or not.

Blogger IM2L844 September 24, 2012 11:10 AM  

One has to give credit where it is due.

The question I have is where, exactly, is the credit due? Is his prime motivator actually what is in the best interest of the American people or could it be that his prime motivator, in this particular instance, just happened to produce results that superficially appear to coincide with what many people want?

Blogger Fred September 24, 2012 11:10 AM  

Well lets see here. Instead of dealing with scripture in response, ive been called 'nigga' and told I have daddy issues. Rather than address those offensive replys, Ill address Vox's more thoughtful comments:

First, we can't "abandon" Israel.
A. Sure we can. We can by not supporting them if attacked by Iran.
They're not even our ally now.
A. Thats Obamas issue. America historically has supported Israel, as witnessed by their military arsenal. Indeed every President but this one since 1948, has to a large degree, supported Israel.
Second, "abandoning" Israel is not "opposing" Israel. The USA isn't going to attack Israel.
A. Agree. Opposing is not abandoning. I stated that we should oppose Israel attacking Iran. Abandoning them if attacked would be doing this: the only concern of the USA should be to prevent the war from going regional by keeping the Sunni Arab nations out of the conflict.

Third, how can you look around you and fail to conclude that God has not already allowed the USA to go its own way and sink into sin?
A. Your conclusion is valid, but God is merciful. Perhaps he would restore America is she repented(ie..why else pray to that end if not a possibility? God has done this in the past for Israel itself, why not us?) But not supporting Israel if attacked by an enemy, without provocation, would be to remove that final tangible possibility of mercy.

Blogger stats September 24, 2012 11:10 AM  

"Suplicant for votes, you mean? Is that you argument? "Obama doesn't hate Israel because he always begs for the jewish vote"."

I haven't seen any evidence that would make me think he hates Israel. The fact that he does everything that is asked of him by the lobby is somehow evidence that he "hugely dislikes" Israel? How exactly do things work in your little world?

Anonymous Tallen September 24, 2012 11:13 AM  

effect -> affect

Blogger stats September 24, 2012 11:14 AM  

"But not supporting Israel if attacked by an enemy, without provocation, would be to remove that final tangible possibility of mercy."

Without provocation? Really? You believe that Israel hasn't tried to provoke Iran? Have you not been paying attention or do you get all your info on the Middle East from John Haggee?

Blogger Jardinera654 September 24, 2012 11:19 AM  

Fred said: Josh is wrong. Every country that has opposed Israel has been destroyed without exception.


They spared the Israelis the full Carthaginian treatment. However, the Italians pretty much completely destroyed Israel in 70AD, to the point where it took the Israelis almost two millenium to reestablish themselves.

The Italians have have myriad changes of government since then, but then, so has everyone else. Last time I looked, the inhabitants of Rome, Milan, Turin, etc. were pretty much living their lives as they always have, predictions of societal collapse not withstanding.

Blogger Lucas September 24, 2012 11:22 AM  

stats,

con" conservative in name only, has one agenda, Israel. Usually dual citizens, Jews with one god and one god only, Israel, and silly ass mega-church acolytes that call themselves Christian Zionists.

Wrong in all of the above. Want to give it another try?

Supplicant for votes? Yes, but how is it you've determined that he is a vote monger that secretly "hugely dislikes" Israel?

By his actions, friend. Do you want me to list them for you? Do you want me to list every single disrespectful and arrogant thing your Obama did to Israel?


"More than eager" = more than eager. Got it? What exactly is it you neo-cons want, anyway?

I don't know. Have you asked them?

He has done everything you want, short of starting WWIII.

Really? Obama has done everything we [Christians] want?


"Suplicant for votes, you mean? Is that you argument? "Obama doesn't hate Israel because he always begs for the jewish vote"."

I haven't seen any evidence that would make me think he hates Israel.


You haven't seen me saying that he hates Israel, so your observation habilites are greatly undermined.

The fact that he does everything that is asked of him by the lobby is somehow evidence that he "hugely dislikes" Israel?

"The lobby" sounds like "The Firm" or something.

You have to live in a huge paralel universe not to notice the dislike your Obama has for Israel. But I guess things work a bit diferently in your corner of reality.

Anonymous re allow anonymous comments September 24, 2012 11:30 AM  

Obama isn't going to "abandon" Israel. He's just playing smart politics. Make Netanyahu sweat so Obama can get something out of him. Also as has already been pointed out, it drives the GOP nuts, and they go off the deep end calling for war, war and more war.


Anonymous Josh September 24, 2012 11:32 AM  

Lots of countries have conquered Jerusalem since the death and resurrection of Jesus. The Roman empire lasted for 400 years in the west and for 1000 years in the east after they sacked Jerusalem.

The caliphate took Jerusalem and lasted for 350 years.

The crusader kingdoms lasted for a hundred years.

Saladin retook Jerusalem...

The Turks held Jerusalem for 700 years...

Blogger stats September 24, 2012 11:33 AM  

"You have to live in a huge paralel universe not to notice the dislike your Obama has for Israel. But I guess things work a bit diferently in your corner of reality."

He is not MY Obama. Didn't vote for him, don't even like him. Just curious about the Christian Zionist(now that we know what you are) claim that he "dislikes" Israel. Now I'm still waiting on some evidence that he "hugely dislikes" Israel. Don't need a long list, any kind of list will do.

Anonymous Josh September 24, 2012 11:35 AM  

By his actions, friend. Do you want me to list them for you? Do you want me to list every single disrespectful and arrogant thing your Obama did to Israel?

Yes, list them, and then we can list all the disrespectful and arrogant things that Israel has done to the united states...

Anonymous jack September 24, 2012 11:43 AM  

Have not read the comments yet but I think my opinion, if previously stated, needs repeating.
Obama is obviously fixated on the destruction of the United States, the Great Satan. He is doing this by pushing for the formation of the new caliphate using any and all resources of our country to accomplish this. And, leaving Israel hanging in the breeze is a big part of it all. He is an obvious traitor and it's criminal that our so called political leaders in congress have not removed him from office and tried him for this treason. So much for oaths of office that swear to protect the USA from all enemies foreign and domestic.

You can argue all you want about not supporting Israel being in our national interest and that we will not be very effected by Israel being blown off the map. The fact is that Obama and his goons and the democrat party are enabling the caliphate, weakening our defenses and seeking to destroy the economy, all of which is definitely in our national interest to stop and reverse.

For what it's worth remember the old saying that those who stand with Israel will prosper, those who don't will not. Believe that or not as you will.

Anonymous zen0 September 24, 2012 11:48 AM  

Lastly, Israel is not our ally. There is no official treaty making it so. They are simple a friendly nation (for the most part) and beyond that, we are under no obligation to defend them if they are attacked. -- swiftfoxmark2

Not as simple as you make out. The following comes from a U.S. ambassador who worked on the Obama campaign and was a strategic advisor in the White House.

Ambassador's Speeches
February 1, 2012 - Ambassador Daniel B. Shapiro Remarks for the IDC Herzliya Conference (as prepared)




Blogger stats September 24, 2012 11:49 AM  

"Obama is obviously fixated on the destruction of the United States, the Great Satan. He is doing this by pushing for the formation of the new caliphate using any and all resources of our country to accomplish this. And, leaving Israel hanging in the breeze is a big part of it all."

You Christian Zionist just live in your own little special world don't you? Of course it has nothing to do with reality. But the fact that some bespectacled fat-man in a suit with an orchestral accompaniment can convince you of these things is just plan scary.

Anonymous Josh September 24, 2012 11:50 AM  

. He is an obvious traitor and it's criminal that our so called political leaders in congress have not removed him from office and tried him for this treason.

Wait.

He's treasonous for being insufficiently supportive of Israeli interests?

Anonymous Josh September 24, 2012 11:53 AM  

Obama is obviously fixated on the destruction of the United States, the Great Satan. He is doing this by pushing for the formation of the new caliphate using any and all resources of our country to accomplish this.

Where is your proof?

Obama has killed hundreds, if not thousands, of muslims with drones.

He's waging war against muslims in at least six muslim countries (Libya, Somalia, Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. Probably soon Egypt, Syria, and Sudan).

How is this creating a new caliphate?

Anonymous LES September 24, 2012 12:00 PM  

The Church is not a place but a people. Israel is not a place to God, but a people. The Jews expect(ed) the Messiah to establish a kingdom from "the river in Egypt to the Euphrates river (in Iraq)" Genesis 15:18. If Jewishness is an ethnicity then only a small minority of Jews today are descended from Abraham. As a former Christian Zionist I now reject the Last Days interpretation that puts the secular nation called Israel at the center of prophecy. Jesus' "Promised Land" is eternal and is not located in the Middle East.

Anonymous Noah B. September 24, 2012 12:00 PM  

I don't see the logic of saying that Iran is not a threat to the US. It has means, motive, and opportunity. It may not have a large number of warheads or delivery systems with global reach, but Iran has apparently been testing the use of unconventional delivery methods for years.

A big reason we haven't attacked Iran is the fragility of global petroleum production and supply. Removing Iran's production from the global supply would likely do a great deal of damage to industrialized economies, including the US. Remember that oil was around $30 per bbl when we invaded Iraq and rose steadily for years afterward. I don't believe today's market has fully priced in a war that would cripple Iran's oil exports.

Anonymous Athor Pel September 24, 2012 12:02 PM  

Whenever someone says that America needs to stand beside Israel in their hour of need I point to the following verse.

"Isaiah 31
1 Woe to those who go down to Egypt for help
And rely on horses,
And trust in chariots because they are many
And in horsemen because they are very strong,
But they do not look to the Holy One of Israel, nor seek the LORD!
2 Yet He also is wise and will bring disaster
And does not retract His words,
But will arise against the house of evildoers
And against the help of the workers of iniquity.
3 Now the Egyptians are men and not God,
And their horses are flesh and not spirit;
So the LORD will stretch out His hand,
And he who helps will stumble
And he who is helped will fall,
And all of them will come to an end together. "



For Israel there is one way, one King, one Master. They either rely on Him or they get punished, regardless of what earthly nation they get help from.

For those a little slow on the uptake, Egypt in the above set of verses applies to America in the here and now. To state it again, Egypt is America when it comes to this set of verses.

What does the US government provide Israel? Money, weapons and a promise of more when needed. What did Egypt provide to ancient Israel? Basically the same thing.

Quoting Psalms where it says to pray for the peace of Israel is exactly that, prayer. Prayer to the Lord Almighty, the rightful King of Israel.

Last time I looked, the US government wasn't the Lord God, Creator of the Universe.

Anonymous LES September 24, 2012 12:09 PM  

Also, the Arabs in the Middle East know that the Zionists want a "Greater Israel" "from the river
in Egypt to the Euphrates river (in Iraq)." Do you really think they just plan to roll over and give their land away?

Anonymous Stilicho September 24, 2012 12:13 PM  

Last time I looked, the US government wasn't the Lord God, Creator of the Universe.

Ah, you clearly weren't paying attention to the recent DNC convention in Charlotte.

Anonymous E. PERLINE September 24, 2012 12:14 PM  

Except that its progress sets an example for the intelligent Iranian people to emulate, Israel occupies only a tiny amount of land. At present, land isn't needed by the Muslims.

So why are Iranians making the first of an arsenal of nuclear weapons? I believe those nuclear weapons will be kept in store for another nation they call the "Great Satan."

Anonymous Josh September 24, 2012 12:16 PM  

Not as simple as you make out. The following comes from a U.S. ambassador who worked on the Obama campaign and was a strategic advisor in the White House.Ambassador's SpeechesFebruary 1, 2012 - Ambassador Daniel B. Shapiro Remarks for the IDC Herzliya Conference (as prepared)

Two interesting observations from that transcript:

One:
I would like to thank the IDC, particularly Major General Danny Rothschild, for hosting this always useful conference.

Two:
While the senate has passed numerous resolutions designating Israel as our most specialest bestest friend, I don't see the Knesset reciprocating that sentiment. Also, there isn't a treaty that lays out the terms of this alliance, what each nation is obligated to do on behalf of the other, etc.

Blogger Chelm Wiseman September 24, 2012 12:18 PM  

Israel is a Major Non Nato Ally - Therefore Israel is an Ally.

Anonymous Kickass September 24, 2012 12:20 PM  

"Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." Say it!

Now Fred, break out your Bible and read it any nothing else. Listen to no one else. Pray for the Holy Spirit to teach you.

Then realize.....

Anonymous Josh September 24, 2012 12:21 PM  

Israel is a Major Non Nato Ally - Therefore Israel is an Ally.

A senate designation is not the same as a formal treaty. Also, this seems very one sided. What obligations does Israel have as our ally? Certainly they're not doing us a bit of good, especially since they keep expanding settlements in the west bank, which is a violation of every peace agreement they've signed.

Anonymous Cheddarman September 24, 2012 12:24 PM  

The Israel worshiping churchians believe that it is our duty to protect Israel...they (churchians)fail to realize the more we coddle Israel , the more they continue to flip the middle finger to Christ...flaming idiots, all of them...

sincerely

Cheddarman

Anonymous Stilicho September 24, 2012 12:26 PM  

Lastly, Israel is not our ally. There is no official treaty making it so. They are simple a friendly nation (for the most part) and beyond that, we are under no obligation to defend them if they are attacked.

Nations do not have friends. Nations have interests. Sometimes, their interests coincide...other times, they do not.

Anonymous Cheddarman September 24, 2012 12:26 PM  

Athor pel, well said!

Anonymous No_Limit_Bubba™ September 24, 2012 12:26 PM  

Fred said:
One fault with your logic-it omits the omninous fact that Gods hand will be completely removed if we abandon Israel. I agree we must not encourage them to attack Iran, but should help defend if attacked. 
To not do this is to open the hand of Gods judgment against Amerika the day after we abandon Israel.You can not call yourself a real believer in Christ, and believe that we should abandon the chosen of God. ......


Somewhere, Chris Hitchens is chuckling that you posted this comment here.

Anonymous Stilicho September 24, 2012 12:28 PM  

Sam Scott: what is the breakdown in Israel re: viewing the modern state as the fulfillment of prophesy vs not?

Blogger Chelm Wiseman September 24, 2012 12:30 PM  

Josh - A senate designation is not the same as a formal treaty.

And a car is not the same thing as a bicycle... so what?

Israel is an ally of the US no matter how you may wish it were not so. To say that they are not is wrong. Australia is an ally under the same designation.

Anonymous Lord Balfour September 24, 2012 12:33 PM  

@ LES

Preach It


I wonder how these hypocritical Obama haters and Zionist believers deal with the reality of, say, a Rahm Emmanuel or any of the other Zionist "jews" around Barry? Rahm's father was a terrorist for ZionistIsrael, plain and simple.
It doesn't get any more dedicated to "fulfilling" (supposed) biblical prophecy than that, eh?

Blogger JohnG September 24, 2012 12:37 PM  

I suppose Israel is our non-ally ally, since we share intelligence with them and they give us stuff that we can't get because our CIA prima donnas don't speak any Farsi.

We don't have to wage war on behalf of Israel, in fact if we just let them alone and didn't mess with Jerusalem, we'd be fine as Christians. Selling them guns and bombs is just good capatalism.

I don't know that the "only going to set them back for a year" argument is valid - it would be tricky for us, if we weren't going to send teams in to look at the BDA.

The downside of having Israel try to do this on their own is that it's going to start a fight that we're going to have to get involved in anyway. The first thing Iran is going to do is shut down the Straight of Hormuz, which will jack oil up into the stratosphere - which nobody is going to tolerate.

That Obama is doing some sort of diplomatic intrigue on this is laughable. The guy doesn't have a clue, can't be bothered (foreign policy interferes with golf). And absolutely he's doing a middle finger salute at the Israelis, the administration and most significant branches of gov't are littered with Islamic Brotherhood infiltrators.

Blogger stats September 24, 2012 12:38 PM  

"And a car is not the same thing as a bicycle... so what?"

That is your argument? Words mean nothing? Israel is our ally because you say so? Huh. Never studied law, I'm guessing.

Blogger ajw308 September 24, 2012 12:46 PM  

Seriously, read the history of the Arab-Israeli wars. Syria and Jordan were supposed to cover each others flanks and one left the other out to dry. They (I forget which one) were actually radioing armor positions well forward while they were holding back.

As much as the Arabs hate the Jews, they only hate each other just a little bit less.

While support Iran when you can take it's oil after it wrecks itself on Israel?

Blogger ajw308 September 24, 2012 12:47 PM  

Has there ever been a war that was expected to be short that actually turned out to be short?

Anonymous zen0 September 24, 2012 12:49 PM  

Also, there isn't a treaty that lays out the terms of this alliance, what each nation is obligated to do on behalf of the other, etc.
-- Josh

Technically true but irrelevant:

From an article about the Israel-United States Memorandum (MOU)of 1981

A new MOU two years later created two groups: the Joint Political-Military Group (JPMG) to discuss means of countering Soviet threats;7 and the Joint Security Assistance Planning Group (JSAP) to oversee security assistance. When Congress designated Israel as a major non-NATO ally in 1987, Israeli industries could compete equally with those of NATO countries for contracts to produce some military items. The next year, a new MOU encompassed all prior agreements. By the end of Reagan's second term, the United States had pre-positioned equipment in Israel, regularly held joint training exercises, began co-development of the Arrow Anti-Tactical Ballistic Missile, and was engaged in a host of other cooperative military endeavors.

These strategic ties have further grown in the past eight years. A Joint Anti-Terrorism Working Group came into existence in 1996, as did a hotline between the Pentagon and the Israeli defense ministry. In early 1997, Israel linked up to the U.S. missile-warning satellite system, which provides it with real-time warnings of hostile missiles. The U.S. government continues to fund the research and development of Israeli weapons systems and military equipment.8

This plethora of agreements, when added to the institutionalized military-to-military contacts, amount to a remarkable web of connections, one that may be unique for two states that lack a mutual defense treaty.

Blogger Chelm Wiseman September 24, 2012 12:49 PM  

stats - Israel is our ally because you say so?

No Israel is our ally because the US Senate says so.

The US Senate is the legislative body charged with ratifying the foreign policy of the United States.

Since Vox and the people on this forum are not content accept the US Senate's definition of the term ally, perhaps he could offer his own definition of the term.

Vox is confusing a mutual defense treaty with the term ally.

Anonymous Josh September 24, 2012 12:51 PM  

Israel is an ally of the US no matter how you may wish it were not so. To say that they are not is wrong. 

So what do we get out of the deal?

Israel's a pretty terrible ally.

Anonymous VD September 24, 2012 12:52 PM  

Has there ever been a war that was expected to be short that actually turned out to be short?

Yes, many of them. Unsurprisingly, there tends to be less historical interest in them. Because they're short.

Anonymous JI September 24, 2012 12:52 PM  

To all those who think Israel is a good ally of the US. Look at all the espionage cases that have come up over the years in which American traitors were selling military secrets to the Israelis. That's not how a good ally behaves.

Anonymous zen0 September 24, 2012 12:52 PM  

If Israel decides to attack Iran, or if Iran decides to attack Israel, the only concern of the USA should be to prevent the war from going regional by keeping the Sunni Arab nations out of the conflict.

All well and good, except Iran has stated they will attack U.S. bases in the region whether the U.S. is involved in an attack or not.

Anonymous Josh September 24, 2012 12:54 PM  

Vox is confusing a mutual defense treaty with the term ally.

So, you agree that there is no reason for us to come to Israel's aid, and no reason for us to come to their aid?

Anonymous Josh September 24, 2012 12:55 PM  

To all those who think Israel is a good ally of the US. Look at all the espionage cases that have come up over the years in which American traitors were selling military secrets to the Israelis. That's not how a good ally behaves.

Not to mention they blew up our freaking warship...

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 September 24, 2012 12:56 PM  

All well and good, except Iran has stated they will attack U.S. bases in the region whether the U.S. is involved in an attack or not.

Then we must pull out of those bases at the first sign of an attack.

Blogger Chelm Wiseman September 24, 2012 12:58 PM  

Josh - So, you agree that there is no reason for us to come to Israel's aid, and no reason for us to come to their aid?

No, but I agree that there is no treaty obligating the United States or Israel to do so. There may or may not be good reasons depending on the circumstances.

Anonymous VD September 24, 2012 1:00 PM  

No Israel is our ally because the US Senate says so. Vox is confusing a mutual defense treaty with the term ally.

Yes, I notice the US President says so too. In fact, he goes so far as to say they're even one of our closest in the Middle East.

"In a CBS “60 Minutes” interview that aired Sunday night, President Obama inadvertently suggested an approach to the Middle East that places Israel on a par with its Arab neighbors, calling Israel “one of our closest allies in the region.”

Since Vox and the people on this forum are not content accept the US Senate's definition of the term ally, perhaps he could offer his own definition of the term.

We don't need to use mine. We can simply use the Oxford English Dictionary's: a state formally cooperating with another for a military or other purpose.

And what is the evidence of Israel formally cooperating with the United States? I don't deny that Israel cooperates with the USA on a regular basis, but where is the evidence that the cooperation is formal?

Anonymous 11B September 24, 2012 1:04 PM  

Australia is an ally under the same designation.

Isn't Australia an ally because of the ANZUS Treaty?

No Israel is our ally because the US Senate says so.

The US Senate is the legislative body charged with ratifying the foreign policy of the United States.


In the US, the treaty power is a coordinated effort between the Executive branch and the Senate. The President may form and negotiate a treaty, but the treaty must be advised and consented to by a two-thirds vote in the Senate. Only after the Senate approves the treaty can the President ratify it.

Has a President ratified an ANZUS or NATO type treaty with Israel?

Anonymous Stilicho September 24, 2012 1:07 PM  

where is the evidence that the cooperation is formal?

See Zeno's post above re: Memorandum of Understanding. Israel is a de facto ally on an ad hoc basis: we give them support that they need and they help us out, primarily with intel, as it suits their interests. We're not married so much as we're shacking up. For now. Non-exclusively.

Anonymous Clay September 24, 2012 1:13 PM  

If getting blowed-up by the Iranians will keep the Israelis from sending their crappy olives over here,...well, that's a plus.

Blogger Chelm Wiseman September 24, 2012 1:15 PM  

VD - Yes, I notice the US President says so too.

Yes, and since the president and senate agree... it is constitutionally sound to say that the US and Israel are allies.

And what is the evidence of Israel formally cooperating with the United States?

Here is a list of agreements between the United States and Israel on the Jewish Virtual Library website:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/MOUs.html
The source is from the State Department Treaty Information office. The topics of these agreements range from economics, security, scientific exchange, extradition, etc.

I think that you can safely assume that each one of these agreements has responsibilities for both the United States and Israel to comply... They are formal agreements and have formal mechanisms for compliance. Is that enough evidence for you?

Anonymous 11B September 24, 2012 1:20 PM  

Chelm,

If Israel and Turkey went to war, which side would the US take?

Anonymous The One September 24, 2012 1:21 PM  

I didn't read all the comments so excuse me if this has been said, but Iran stated that an attack by Israel will be responded with attacks on U.S interests whatever or not the U.S actually helped Israel. Therefore wouldn't the wise choice be to receive both the good and bad, rather than only the bad?

Blogger Chelm Wiseman September 24, 2012 1:27 PM  

11B - If Israel and Turkey went to war, which side would the US take?

I don't know. Turkey is a NATO ally, so the US is obligated to defend Turkey, but not if Turkey started it. So, it could go either way.

Anonymous Noah B. September 24, 2012 1:38 PM  

"That's not how a good ally behaves."

Etiquette is different in the intelligence world. Everyone spies on everyone, and this is accepted. Probably because they have no morals to begin with.

Anonymous Tomas de Torquemada September 24, 2012 1:41 PM  

Is there something wrong with hating Israel and the Jews?

David says, "Do I not hate those who hate you, Lord, and abhor those who are in rebellion against you?" Psalm 139:21

Anonymous Dan in Texas September 24, 2012 1:44 PM  

When I read some of the blind "Support Israel at any cost" nonsensical comments whenever the topic of U.S. support for Israel comes up, I really have to wonder if the propaganda megaphone is simply working like a well oiled machine.
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=42902

Blogger Chelm Wiseman September 24, 2012 1:45 PM  

Below, is a list of the formal military treaties with Israel:

So given the fact that the Senate and president agree that Israel is an ally and that there are multiple formal military agreement between the two countries, I don't understand on what basis you say that Israel is not a military ally.


January 16, 2009 Memorandum of Understanding Between The United States and Israel Regarding Prevention of the Supply of Arms and Related Materiel to Terrorist Groups
May 29, 2008 Agreement on cooperation in science and technology for homeland security matters, with annex
January 28, 1998 Treaty on mutual assistance in criminal matters.
September 3, 1996 Agreement for technology research and development projects.
April 30, 1996 Counterterrorism cooperation accord
July 18, 1996 Memorandum of Agreement concerning the tactical high energy laser (THEL) advanced concept technology demonstration (ACTD).
April 30, 1996 Counterterrorism cooperation accord to enhance capabilities to deter, prevent, respond to and investigate international terrorist acts or threats of international terrorist acts against Israel or the United States.
October 18, 1991 Memorandum of Understanding for a loan of a multi-sensor integrate system for the purpose of test and evaluation
June 1991 Agreement pertaining to Arrow Continuation Experiments (ACES) the second stage of the joint U.S.-Israel Arrow missile program
January 22, 1991 Agreement on the status of United States personnel
September 8, 1989 MOU regarding transfers of materials, supplies and equipment for cooperative research and development programs
April 1989 Memorandum of Agreement between the Strategic Defense Initiative Organization and Israel’s Defense Ministry to develop a $35 million computer facility as part of the Arrow missile program
May 24, 1988 Agreement relating to mutual defense assistance
April 21, 1988 Agreement regarding payment for tooling costs of accelerated production of M-60A1 tanks
December 14, 1987 Agreement concerning construction of air base facilities
November 29, 1983 Agreement concerning funding of air base facilities
December 10, 1982 General security of information agreement
April 6, 1979 Agreement creating the Joint Political Military Group and Joint Security Assistance Program
April 6, 1979 Memorandum of Agreement concerning the principles governing mutual cooperation in research and development, scientist and engineer exchange, and procurement and logistic support of defense equipment, with annexes and attachment.
October 23, 1975 Memorandum of Agreement regarding joint political, security and economic cooperation.
July 23, 1952 Mutual logistic support agreement

Anonymous dh September 24, 2012 1:49 PM  

> I don't know. Turkey is a NATO ally, so the US is obligated to defend Turkey, but not if Turkey
> started it. So, it could go either way.

This isn't even close. NATA would be at war with Israel, and so therefore, would the US.

Anonymous VD September 24, 2012 1:51 PM  

They are formal agreements and have formal mechanisms for compliance. Is that enough evidence for you?

In the aggregate, yes, and I think this one is the most significant: May 24, 1988 Agreement relating to mutual defense assistance

So, I'm willing to concede that Israel is a US ally. However, I am not convinced that they are as close an ally, in the military sense, as our NATO allies. Which is to say that I suspect the US is not bound to come to their aid if they are attacked, as we did not do so in previous Arab-Israeli wars. However, those wars preceded the 1988 agreement, so I could be incorrect there.

Blogger Chelm Wiseman September 24, 2012 1:56 PM  

VD - However, I am not convinced that they are as close an ally, in the military sense, as our NATO allies.

I agree completely.

Which is to say that I suspect the US is not bound to come to their aid if they are attacked, as we did not do so in previous Arab-Israeli wars. However, those wars preceded the 1988 agreement, so I could be incorrect there.

I don't know the details either, but suspect that you are correct here. I would imagine the the US reserved enough wiggle room in the agreement to avoid a regional conflict not in its interest.

Anonymous Josh September 24, 2012 1:57 PM  

Was the 1988 agreement a treaty ratified by the senate and signed by the president?

Anonymous Mr. B.A.D. September 24, 2012 2:24 PM  

Ehud Barak is a bad mofo

Anonymous RedJack September 24, 2012 2:25 PM  

A war with Iran will leave more than 500 dead. But with Syria tied up, Eypgt still trying to recover from its recent revolution, and Iraq under the US thumb, this is the best chance Isreal has to strike.

Anonymous Gen. Kong September 24, 2012 2:28 PM  

stats: "But Obama is not focusing on national interests because he cares for the USA; he does that because he has a soft spot for muslims, and a huge dislike for Israel."

I'm always curious about this claim by neo-cons. What evidence is there that Obama hates Israel? Yes, he refused to meet with crazy uncle bibi recently but he has always been a fine and loyal supplicant to AIPAC in the past. He had a dual-citizen Israeli soldier as his chief of staff and he was more than eager to implement sanctions against Iran and send battle ships to the Gulf to intimidate them. Where is the evidence that he "hates" Israel?


Apparently not being enthusiastic enough is now the same as "hate". Housenigga Hussein be showin' some attitude towards Massa Bibi. Don't ever be the first to stop applauding!

Anonymous Rally September 24, 2012 2:30 PM  

A war between Israel and Iran would involve at least and probably several other countries in the region, just because of geography. They would at least have to make the decision to allow or contest use of their air space.

Anonymous Gen. Kong September 24, 2012 2:41 PM  

re allow anonymous comments:
Obama isn't going to "abandon" Israel. He's just playing smart politics. Make Netanyahu sweat so Obama can get something out of him. Also as has already been pointed out, it drives the GOP nuts, and they go off the deep end calling for war, war and more war.

That's a fairly perceptive observation. By snubbing 'crazy uncle Bibi', the Mocha Messiah comes off as the "peace" candidate once again (the idiocracy having the attention-span of a gnat), which naturally opens the door to (accurately) portray Mittens as a drooling, knuckle-dragging warmonger. This will garner D'Won on d'downlow massive votes from all the nice white ladies who are sick and tired of seeing so many sons, brothers, husbands, uncles and even a few daughters come home without arms and legs. Once the second term is won, D'Won will be free to launch the big one against Mad Johnny as ordered.

Anonymous George September 24, 2012 2:52 PM  

VD said:

"And what is the evidence of Israel formally cooperating with the United States? I don't deny that Israel cooperates with the USA on a regular basis, but where is the evidence that the cooperation is formal?

That would be here, among numerous other places: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/MOUs.html

Anonymous George September 24, 2012 2:56 PM  

For anyone wondering, there is no possibility that Israel starts a war with, nor bombs, Iran without U.S. guaranteeing its support in advance.

Bibi isn't asking for U.S. support because it would be nice to have. He's asking for it because without it, the action would be considered illegitimate by much of the world and understood and pretty dumb by most.

Furthermore, the U.S. is not going to allow the jewish state, a state that won its existence via centuries of withstanding massive assault on its people, to lose any war or be in any way crippled. Moral imperative alone prevents that as does basic strategic concerns.

Anonymous scoobius dubious September 24, 2012 3:09 PM  

"Moral imperative alone prevents that as does basic strategic concerns."

Basic strategic concerns, is right.

Translation: Israel has nukes pointed at America as insurance.

Anonymous Clay September 24, 2012 3:12 PM  

"George September 24, 2012 2:56 PM Furthermore, the U.S. is not going to allow the jewish state, a state that won its existence via centuries of withstanding massive assault on its people, to lose any war or be in any way crippled. Moral imperative alone prevents that as does basic strategic concerns."

Good Lloyd, George. Do you believe in "Peace in our time, too?"

Anonymous Noah B. September 24, 2012 3:50 PM  

"Bibi isn't asking for U.S. support because it would be nice to have. He's asking for it because without it, the action would be considered illegitimate by much of the world and understood and pretty dumb by most."

It scares me to say this George, but I have to agree with you.

Anonymous Just-Michael September 24, 2012 3:58 PM  

Matthew chapter 10, verses 6 through 14 sums up the situation regarding contemporary Israel.

Anonymous 11B September 24, 2012 4:06 PM  

Bibi isn't asking for U.S. support because it would be nice to have. He's asking for it because without it, the action would be considered illegitimate by much of the world and understood and pretty dumb by most.

Could you clarify what you mean by support. Do you mean support as in the US will verbally approve of any Israeli actions, and not allow the UN to pass any unfriendly resolutions? Or do you mean that the US will actively participate once Israel bombs and then conduct our own military campaign?

Anonymous Cheddarman September 24, 2012 4:32 PM  

If Israel attacked Turkey in the rear, would they use Greece?

Anonymous George September 24, 2012 4:47 PM  

11B wrote:

"Could you clarify what you mean by support. Do you mean support as in the US will verbally approve of any Israeli actions, and not allow the UN to pass any unfriendly resolutions? Or do you mean that the US will actively participate once Israel bombs and then conduct our own military campaign?"

By "support" we mean the U.S. having Israel's back in any attack they stage against Iran. That means that any attack would be with the U.S.'s blessing, the U.S.'s help and with the U.S. helping to justify the action. Anyone who thinks Israel will unilaterally and pre-emptively attack Iran along, without a U.S. "OK" hans't been watching the Middle East for the past 40 years.

Anonymous Noah B. September 24, 2012 4:58 PM  

Based on what is publicly available regarding Israel's military capabilities, at an absolute minimum, Israel would need access to US military bases in Iraq and/or Afghanistan to effectively attack Iran using weapons other than ICBM's. Iran understands this fully.

A more remote possibility would be to allow the Israelis to stage from a US carrier group.

Anonymous Anonymous September 24, 2012 5:06 PM  

Paraphrased for the 21st century:

"Isaiah 31
1 Woe to those who go to America for help
And rely on aircraft,
And trust in tanks because they are many
And in US soldiers because they are very strong,
But they do not look to the Holy One of Israel, nor seek the LORD!
2 Yet He also is wise and will bring disaster
And does not retract His words,
But will arise against the house of evildoers
And against the help of the workers of iniquity.
3 Now the Americans are men and not God,
And their military hardware is material and not spirit;
So the LORD will stretch out His hand,
And he who helps will stumble
And he who is helped will fall,
And all of them will come to an end together. "


If the Lord is for Israel, who can be against her? Let the Lord show himself strong!

But: "See! Your house is left to you desolate; and assuredly, I say to you, you shall not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’" Luke 13:35

Anonymous Sam Scott September 24, 2012 5:38 PM  

Stilicho,

Sam Scott: what is the breakdown in Israel re: viewing the modern state as the fulfillment of prophesy vs not?

I have my own opinions, but I'll tell you the views as objectively as possible since I live in Israel.

It depends who you ask. Again, three Jews, four opinions.

(Most) Secular Israelis: The establishment of Israel is necessary out of the rational need for a nation-state for people of Jewish ethnicity to serve as a homeland and protect them and their interests. They attach no religious significance to it because they do not believe in religious Judaism.

Religious/National Zionists ("Dati Leumi" in Hebrew): The establishment of State of Israel is prophetical and a necessary step to the coming of the Moshiach (Messiah).

Moderate Haredim (moderate, ultra-Orthodox Jews): The establish of the State of Israel does not mean one way or the other because men, not God Himself, created the state. They tolerate the State until the real Israel is founded by God.

Extremist Haredim (hard-core, ultra-Orthodox Jews): They actively oppose the existence of the State of Israel because they think it is sinful and an affront to God since only He can re-create Israel. Some of them unite with countries like Iran because they do not want the state to exist at all as it exists today.

Does that help? I can clarify as needed.

Anonymous 11B September 24, 2012 5:45 PM  

By "support" we mean the U.S. having Israel's back in any attack they stage against Iran. That means that any attack would be with the U.S.'s blessing, the U.S.'s help and with the U.S. helping to justify the action. Anyone who thinks Israel will unilaterally and pre-emptively attack Iran along, without a U.S. "OK" hans't been watching the Middle East for the past 40 years.

So essentially you want the US to take out Iran. The scenario would go something like this. Israel launches a first strike, an enraged Iran launches various reprisals, then Uncle Sam has to go in and launch a full scale war to put the beast down.

Will Israel help out in any further ways, such as supplying men for the gristmill of the occupation or forgoing her annual stipend of $3 billion to help offset the costs of such action?

Anonymous Yorzhik September 24, 2012 6:37 PM  

At least this should put to rest the idea the Israel runs America's foreign policy.

Anonymous George September 24, 2012 6:45 PM  

11B wrote:

"So essentially you want the US to take out Iran. The scenario would go something like this. Israel launches a first strike, an enraged Iran launches various reprisals, then Uncle Sam has to go in and launch a full scale war to put the beast down."

I didn't endorse or say I wanted anything, 11B. I merely explain the reality of Israeli first strike politics. But to answer your question, No. Israel is unlikely to forgo the foreign aid they get.

That said, now, given Syrian pre-occupation with killing its own, isn't the worst time to make things difficult for Iran.

Blogger TontoBubbaGoldstein September 24, 2012 8:03 PM  

"Sam Scott: what is the breakdown in Israel re: viewing the modern state as the fulfillment of prophesy vs not?"

Sam Scott : Roughly, what are the population percentages in Israel of the four groups you mentioned?
Would be interested in your personal opinion, also. Thanks.

Blogger TontoBubbaGoldstein September 24, 2012 8:08 PM  

Whoops!

Hit "Publish" prematurely. Guess it's time to retire the No_Limit_Bubba™ handle anyway......

Anonymous Sam Scott September 24, 2012 8:24 PM  

TontoBubbaGoldstein,

Sam Scott : Roughly, what are the population percentages in Israel of the four groups you mentioned?

Would be interested in your personal opinion, also. Thanks.


You're welcome! Just an additional note before I address your question:

The National/Religious Orthodox ("Dati Leumi") are the ones who settle the West Bank (or Judea and Samaria, if you prefer) out of religious devotion and a desire to live in all the land that they see promised to the Jews by God.

Still, as is under-reported by the western media:

Many secular and ultra-Orthodox Israelis, as described, also move there simply because land in the disputed areas is much cheaper (since the land may be given to the Palestinians at some point in the future). The cost of living in Israel, for economic reasons best described elsewhere, is very high, and people move to these areas simply to save money even if there is no religious motivation to do so.

Without researching the data again at the moment, I will quote percentages from memory:

-- Roughly 60% of Israelis are secular
-- Of the remainder, roughly 20% are National Religious and Ultra-Orthodox each
-- The issue is that the ultra-Orthodox have an average of eight children per family while the rest of Israel have about three. So, in the coming decades, the ultra-Orthodox population will increase even though many, though not a majority yet, do not recognize the state despite taking government benefits from the state
-- Many ultra-Orthodox in Israel believe in full-time Torah study and do not work. They survive based on donations and government welfare and do not serve in the military (their political sway in coalition governments based on their numbers get them a legal exemption from conscription)
-- This is a demographic, political, and religious issue that many believe is more harmful to the future of Israel than the Iranians or Palestinians
-- I could write a lengthy essay on this issue -- it's very complicated

Now, my own opinion: I believe that God, whose definition for me is complicated, works through man for complicated, metaphysical reasons that I won't discuss right now. So, the secular founders of Israel were vehicles through which God "did his thing."

I think the re-founding of Israel is an important development for the ongoing, we hope, improvement of the world even though the State of Israel is by no means perfect. (As an Israeli, I can attest to that.) We try, and often fail, to be a light unto the nations. We make mistakes, but we keep trying despite the ongoing "difficulties." We do what we can with the "matzav" (situation) that we are given. One day, perhaps we will get it right.

Anonymous 11B September 24, 2012 9:07 PM  

I didn't endorse or say I wanted anything, 11B. I merely explain the reality of Israeli first strike politics. But to answer your question, No. Israel is unlikely to forgo the foreign aid they get.

George, I have no problem with Israel doing what she thinks is in her interest. One reason she should stop taking that $3 billion stipend is so she does not have to ask Uncle Sam for permission.

Having said that, I don't think it is in the interest of my nation to start another war. We have been bogged down for 10 years in Iraq and Afghanistan with nothing to show except a boatload of debt, broken bodies and broken down equipment. Iran would be a much more difficult mission than the other two.

Anonymous 11B September 24, 2012 9:20 PM  

(As an Israeli, I can attest to that.) We try, and often fail, to be a light unto the nations. We make mistakes, but we keep trying despite the ongoing "difficulties." We do what we can with the "matzav" (situation) that we are given. One day, perhaps we will get it right.

Israelis should be proud of what they have accomplished. However, I think they are hurt by their co-ethnics in other nations who are so rabidly leftwing, and in the vanguard of so many movements, e.g. demographic change, that many of us abhor.

I am not saying it is right to hold this against Israel. But it is hard living in America, with all our problems, to be constantly told that we need to do this or that to protect Israel, or that Israel must maintain its Jewish identity, while the thought police squash similar sentiments expressed here.

Blogger Lucas September 25, 2012 5:23 AM  

stats,

"You have to live in a huge paralel universe not to notice the dislike your Obama has for Israel. But I guess things work a bit diferently in your corner of reality."

He is not MY Obama.


Sure he is. I decided that he is your Obama, just like you decided that I am "silly ass mega-church acolytes that call themselves Christian Zionists."

Want to make any corrections in your statements, friend'


Didn't vote for him, don't even like him. Just curious about the Christian Zionist (now that we know what you are) claim that he "dislikes" Israel.


Well, here are some facts that show how your Obama dislkes Israel:

1. Obama and A'Jad agree:

http://joshuapundit.blogspot.com/2012/09/obama-and-ahmadinejad-agree-israeli.html



2. "End Game: Obama Declines Meeting with Israeli PM Netanyahu"

http://joshuapundit.blogspot.com/2012/09/end-game-obama-declines-meeting-with.html


3. Obama To Iran: 'As Long As You Don't Attack US Facilities, Israel Is On Its Own'

http://joshuapundit.blogspot.com/2012/09/obama-to-iran-as-long-as-you-dont.html



4. Obama Administration Officially Decides To Ignore Palestinian Incitement

http://joshuapundit.blogspot.com/2012/08/obama-administration-officially-decides.html


5. Obama Spokehole Jay Carney Won't Answer When Asked Where Israel's Capitol Is

http://joshuapundit.blogspot.com/2012/07/obama-spokehole-jay-carney-wont-answer.html



6. SecState Clinton Signals Support For Hamas, US Assent On Egypt's Abrogating Treaty With Israel

http://joshuapundit.blogspot.com/2012/07/secstate-clinton-signals-support-for.html


...............

Notice: none of that comes from your friends te neo-cons, not the boogey man "Christian Zionist".

Inform yourself.

Blogger Emanuel Goldstein September 25, 2012 8:43 AM  

Israel has to take out Iran, because if Iran gets the bomb it WILL mean a Second Holocaust.

Of course, the West would be oh so sad and wring their hands but the Jews would be dead.

If they strike first, so what if it means even 10,000 Israeli casualties?

That is still less than what one weeks death total at Auschwitz was.

Anonymous The other skeptic September 25, 2012 9:46 PM  

Having said that, I don't think it is in the interest of my nation to start another war.

Yes. However, the nation does not get to make decisions. Individuals and power groups do.

It is in the interests of some of them to start many more wars.

Anonymous The other skeptic September 25, 2012 9:48 PM  

Israel has to take out Iran, because if Iran gets the bomb it WILL mean a Second Holocaust.

Hmmm, Israel has to take out Pakistan, because if Pakistan gets the bomb it WILL mean a Second Holocaust.

Anonymous Kickass September 26, 2012 1:07 AM  

Emmanuel, what is Israel simply humbled themselves and turned to the Lord? He could knock down walls of Jericho and part the red sea. Surely He could protect Israel, no?

Anonymous Greatheart September 28, 2012 10:07 PM  

Random September 24, 2012 10:25 AM: "Fred, please remember that the old covenant is fulfilled in the new.

In Christ we are the new Israel, heirs according to the promises of God to Abraham."

Random, you've made this assertion before. There is no "new Israel", that is an false statement made by what I believe are anti-semetic gentiles to justify their dislike, maybe even hatred, of the Nation of Israel. Please read the following reference and reflect on what the apostle is saying:

Romans, chapters 10 & 11

You will see that "we" did not replace Israel, we are joined to them as a people. As for your remark the current State of Israel holds no theological bearing with Fred's referenced promises, don't you consider it odd that this people, which (supposedly) have no claim on the biblical promises, have not been defeated militarily since its inception? Seems to me the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob is doing a pretty good job of protecting His People. Wouldn't you agree?

Have a good day, Blessings upon you.

Anonymous Greatheart September 28, 2012 11:26 PM  

JI September 24, 2012 12:52 PM: "To all those who think Israel is a good ally of the US. Look at all the espionage cases that have come up over the years in which American traitors were selling military secrets to the Israelis. That's not how a good ally behaves."

Actually, America, for the most part, is a fair weather friend to Israel, at best. America tends to treat Israel like a red-headed stepchild in a Jewish family; speaks out about what a good friend Israel is, but doesn't treat them as an equal. Israel has only struck out when they have felt threatened by our apathetic response to their fears.

The Rosenbergs gave security information to Israel because the US cut them out of information. The only thing that saved them from the execution they deserved was: 1.) Israel is not an enemy country, and 2.) the US was chagrinned that we called Israel "friend" and did not treat them as such.

The USS Liberty was only attacked by the IAF after Reagan's administration refused to respond to questions by Israel. They got his attention, and they got the answers they were seeking.

So, you could say Israel is "not a good ally", but then again, neither has the US always been.

Post a Comment

NO ANONYMOUS COMMENTS. Anonymous comments will be deleted.

Links to this post:

Create a Link

<< Home

Newer Posts Older Posts