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Thursday, September 27, 2012

Juxtaposition

I happened to read two articles describing the same thing from very different perspectives earlier this week.

Item One:
Though few may doubt that Jewish life in America could be threatened, Gordis effectively explains why this luxury is precisely because of the modern state of Israel. In the most powerful passages of the lengthy piece, he describes the Israeli contribution to the strength of the American Jewish psyche and standing. There was an era not long ago in which American Jews tiptoed around America, nervously striving to stay beneath the radar. They evoked that image of the spies who reported back to Moses after surveying the Promised Land: “We looked like grasshoppers to ourselves, and so we appeared to them.” The American Jews who believe they could survive the loss of Israel do not remember that era. They take it as entirely natural that thousands of American citizens confidently ascend the steps of the Capitol Hill on the lobbying day at AIPAC’s annual Policy Conference....

Jews today no longer think of themselves as a tiptoeing people. When Soviet Jews awakened and wanted out of their national prison, American Jews supported them, and the State of Israel made their rescue a national project. When an Air France flight filled with Jews was hijacked to Entebbe, the State of Israel rescued them, and American Jews were filled with unprecedented pride. When Ethiopian Jews were caught in the crosshairs of a deadly civil war, the State of Israel whisked them out, and American philanthropists continue to make them a key priority. Much of what fuels American Jewish pride is the existence and the behavior of the State of Israel.  In ways we do not sufficiently recognize, Israel has changed the existential condition of Jews everywhere, even in America. Without the State of Israel, the self-confidence and sense of belonging that American Jews now take for granted would quickly disappear.
 Item Two:
So what is all the fuss about? It’s a paper entitled “Preparing For A Post Israel Middle East”, an 82-page analysis that concludes that the American national interest in fundamentally at odds with that of Zionist Israel. The authors conclude that Israel is currently the greatest threat to US national interests because its nature and actions prevent normal US relations  with  Arab and  Muslim countries and, to a growing degree, the wider international community....

Among the many findings:
  • Gross Israeli interference in the internal affairs of the United States through spying and illegal US arms transfers. This includes supporting more than 60 ‘front organizations’ and  approximately 7,500 US officials who do Israel’s bidding and seek to dominate and intimidate the media and agencies of  the US government which should no longer be condoned;
  • That the United States government no longer has the financial resources, or public support to continue funding Israel. The billions of dollars in direct and indirect aid from US taxpayers to Israel since 1967 is not affordable and is increasingly being objected to by US taxpayers who oppose continuing American military involvement in the Middle East. US public opinion no longer supports funding and executing widely perceived illegal US wars on Israel’s behalf. This view is increasingly being shared by Europe, Asia and the International public;
Taken in tandem, it rather looks as if history may be threatening to repeat itself yet again.  If the existence of Israel has made American Jews confident enough to stop tiptoeing around America and openly dominate Washington, Hollywood, and Wall Street to an extent the various American intelligence agencies believe should no longer be condoned, this would appear to be setting the stage for a power struggle of the sort that always seems to wind up with the Jews being expelled through no fault of their own.  It raises two questions in my mind:
  1. Have the Jews ever come out on top in such a conflict?
  2. If not, what is the benefit of swaggering proudly rather than tiptoeing politely when one is a tiny minority of the population.

Labels: ,

114 Comments:

Anonymous Josh September 27, 2012 9:39 AM  

what is the benefit of swaggering proudly rather than tiptoeing politely when one is a tiny minority of the population.

Because God will violently destroy anyone who doesn't sacrifice absolutely everything to support Israel!

Also, because they can simply scream anti Semite at any of their critics and chase them to the outskirts of political discourse.

Anonymous DrTorch September 27, 2012 9:41 AM  

Given the current state and trajectory of Eurabia, I worry about any intelligence document that suggest "normal US relations with Arab and Muslim countries."

That doesn't address your questions, but I question the wisdom behind the original position paper.

Anonymous Eric September 27, 2012 9:43 AM  

Alot of people assume that they are the end of history. They believe little will change once their goals of power/influence are obtained. The pendulum will and always will swing again.

Anonymous normal american September 27, 2012 9:48 AM  

appear to be setting the stage for a power struggle of the sort that always seems to wind up with the Jews being expelled


We can hope!

Blogger tz September 27, 2012 9:54 AM  

My immediate though when reading this (and Google Reader caches earlier drafts!) my immediate thought is:

That is so Gay! - as in:

"... confident enough to stop tiptoeing around America and openly dominate Washington, Hollywood, and Wall Street to an extent ...". Add New York and California.

I'm not sure of the story of Lot and his wife might not apply as well. Or Baalam. If those under the Law are so powerful, why are they not doing anything to stop or even slow it?

Anonymous Stilicho September 27, 2012 10:02 AM  

When an influential group insists upon remaining separate from the rest of a nation and practices favoritism for group members while excluding others, they have created a situation where they will be looked upon with suspicion by a large portion of the rest of the nation. When this natural suspicion is exacerbated by the perception (regardless of veracity) of primary loyalty or even divided loyalty with respect to another nation, the position of the separate group becomes precarious.

It is a testament to the hard work, achievements, and partial assimilation of many American Jews that they have remained so long and done so well as a group in this country. It is as a group, however, that they also tend to sow the seeds of their collective problems.

Anonymous Stilicho September 27, 2012 10:08 AM  

By way of comparison, contrast the experience and actions of the German American Bund: an influential political movement among a significant population that made a deliberate decision to abandon separateness and ancestral ties to avoid questions of loyalty, etc.

Anonymous Josh September 27, 2012 10:21 AM  

When an influential group insists upon remaining separate from the rest of a nation and practices favoritism for group members while excluding others, they have created a situation where they will be looked upon with suspicion by a large portion of the rest of the nation. 

We're talking about mormons, right?

Anonymous FUBAR NATION (Ben) September 27, 2012 10:21 AM  

Vox, not everyone swaggers around proudly. Only loudmouth jackass new york jews, who aren't much different than typical loudmouth jackass new yorkers.

Anonymous George September 27, 2012 10:23 AM  

VD Wrote:

"If the existence of Israel has made American Jews confident enough to stop tiptoeing around America and openly dominate Washington, Hollywood, and Wall Street to an extent the various American intelligence agencies believe should no longer be condoned..."

Your analysis is highly flawed in suggesting there is a dominance of any sort by American Jews in DC, in the film industry and on Wall Street. It is flawed also by suggesting that the "American Intelligence Agencies" believe this "dominance" shouldn't be condoned.

You see, you are treating an "analysis" as some sort of official document endorsed by American intelligence agencies. If one actually looks at the entirety of the report in question, we'll see that what is quoted from is a "draft" and that it comes from an anonymous source. Credibility: ZERO.

Finally, anyone who even suggests that Americans might act to try to expel Jews from the country or professions seriously misinterprets the history of the past 85 years. There is no possibility.

I'm really surprised gets this one SO wrong. After all, he's clearly not dumb.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 September 27, 2012 10:23 AM  

Vox, not everyone swaggers around proudly. Only loudmouth jackass new york jews, who aren't much different than typical loudmouth jackass new yorkers.

Being a loudmouth isn't the issue. It is where you are being a loudmouth that counts. And it looks like being on in NYC and DC is where it counts.

Anonymous jack September 27, 2012 10:24 AM  

I wonder how many among the military and even in these intelligence communities really support this amazing position paper? That retired field grade officer that claimed the muslim brotherhood has had numerous of their members placed throughout the power structure in this country comes to mind [can't remember his name].

ALL twelve of these agencies? This sounds like Obama's heavy hand at work. There have just been too many 'convenient' happenings that have enhanced the muslim extremists and the ennoblement of the new caliphate. That Iran claims to have drones equal to ours brings to mind the lost drone the military wanted so badly to bomb into little pieces but Obama refused to give the go ahead. Now, it appears our drones have been reversed engineered. The list has become almost endless.

How much more before even the decrepit congress we have can bring itself to act? Can that many of them really want to see this way of life in the USA end?

Maybe we do need another four of Obama. If this country could, somehow, survive that it would be a harsh lesson worthy of the ages.

IMO

Anonymous CMC September 27, 2012 10:26 AM  

Maybe it is one of those 'tragedy of the commons' type things, where the marginal benefit to one individual, like, for example, Dan Senor, for swaggering, overwhelms the remote danger to the collective group.

Related, maybe, per Game, the long term goal (whether even self-realized or not), is to score enough gentile women to such an extent that they're no longer a minority.

Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus September 27, 2012 10:27 AM  

The Jew stuff aside, I had to laugh at the phrase "normal US relations with Arab and Muslim countries..."

The only "normal" relations that we could have with them that doesn't involve them being complete and utter dipwaps to us would be for us to round them all up, kick them out of our own country, withdraw our embassies, and have nothing to do with them. We can satisfy our energy needs through a combination of domestic fossil fuel development, obtaining from friendly Western countries with small populations and low energy needs (Canada, Australia), and increased reliance on nukulur power (especially if we ever decide to start using thorium reactors, regardless of the "not getting weapons grade plutonium" as a byproduct).

Anonymous rienzi September 27, 2012 10:40 AM  

George wrote: Your analysis is highly flawed in suggesting there is a dominance of any sort by American Jews in DC, in the film industry and on Wall Street.

ROTFLOL! Are you serious, or is this sarcasm? For good or ill, Jews are represented way the hell out of proportion to their numbers in all three places. For goodness sake, they've utterly dominated the film industry practically from its inception. Just to clue you in: Louis B. Mayer and Sam Goldwyn were not Methodists from Nebraska. Thats just one example. I could go on and on and on.

Anonymous Josh September 27, 2012 10:43 AM  

There have just been too many 'convenient' happenings that have enhanced the muslim extremists and the ennoblement of the new caliphate.

Hey look, Glenn Beck reads the blog.

Everyone wave to Glenn!

Glenn, buddy, you might want to stop sniffing chalk dust and step away from the blackboard...

Anonymous Homer Simpson September 27, 2012 10:52 AM  

For good or ill, Jews are represented way the hell out of proportion to their numbers in all three places. For goodness sake, they've utterly dominated the film industry practically from its inception.

"Mel Brooks is jewish!?"

Anonymous Josh September 27, 2012 10:53 AM  

Your analysis is highly flawed in suggesting there is a dominance of any sort by American Jews in DC, in the film industry and on Wall Street. 

Joel Stein would disagree with you.

And he's Jewish.

Blogger Nate September 27, 2012 11:01 AM  

"Your analysis is highly flawed in suggesting there is a dominance of any sort by American Jews in DC, in the film industry and on Wall Street. "

What a strange world you live in...

Anonymous Cheddarman September 27, 2012 11:01 AM  

I think one of the reasons Romney appears to be loosing the presidential race is due to his unqualified support for Israel.

No rational undecided voter would want to sign on to his policy of more war in the Middle East for the "benefit" of the jewish state.

Blogger Survival Gardener, AKA David the Good September 27, 2012 11:09 AM  

"Your analysis is highly flawed in suggesting there is a dominance of any sort by American Jews in DC, in the film industry and on Wall Street."

Oy vey, man.

Anonymous Stilicho September 27, 2012 11:11 AM  

We're talking about mormons, right?

Same principle applies. Degree differs. That's why I wrote it that way.

Blogger RobertT September 27, 2012 11:12 AM  

George: " There is no possibility."

George, you have to be kidding. Read a little history, or just the Bible, the old testament part. The Assyrians. The Nazis. Last month in Egypt. If anything has happened in the history of the world, this is it, the Jews being run from their homeland.

Anonymous Rollory September 27, 2012 11:15 AM  

Vox:
ANTI-SEMITE NAZI JEW-HATER WHO WANTS TO KILL SIX MILLION JEWS

!!!!!111one

George:
"Finally, anyone who even suggests that Americans might act to try to expel Jews from the country or professions seriously misinterprets the history of the past 85 years. "

The most interesting thing about the widespread historical illiteracy of the younger generations is that it is nondiscriminatory. Ask someone under 30 about what precisely the Nazis objected to about Jewish activities in Germany and to what extent those objections were or were not verifiable, and you will not get a very coherent answer, if indeed they say anything besides "I don't know". They know Hitler is Bad, and Nazis are Bad, and Jews are Good, but the knowledge is skin-deep, if that. It's taken for granted because "everybody knows it".

The direct consequence of this is that when and if such people do start taking a serious interest in such things and actually start looking into specific whys and wherefores, they are apt to draw conclusions from what is immediately apparent to them, and from what is presented to them in a coherent fashion. This may or may not have any relationships whatsoever to the prevailing common knowledge of fifty years prior.

In short, the historical inertia you are referring to is a figment of Boomer and (not-so-)Greatest Generation imaginations. The appearance of such remains, for now, because the people who created and accepted the common knowledge - that Expelling Jews Is Wrong - have held the reins of societal authority, and if ever pressed on the details of their proscriptions, could muster up at least a passable explanation of why. But as they die off and retire to nursing homes, their replacements will have neither the emotional foundation for the argument of direct or parental experience in the War Against The Germans, nor so much the dispassionate intellectual one - it's becoming ancient history, something the grandparents lived through, but of no relevance to current everyday life.

But what IS of relevance to current everyday life is the steadily rising cost of milk, and gas, and a 58% national employment rate, and banks that do blatantly illegal things and get off with a slap on the wrist, and funny TV shows that systematically tell your kids that Daddy is an incompetent bumbling idiot, and government officials (de jure like Rubin or de facto like Bernanke) who keep promising improvements but everything they do makes everything worse, and the very, very, very large number of names involved with all these phenomena who have "Religion: Judaism" in their wikipedia entries.

People are going to start drawing conclusions, and whatever happened back when great-grandma was a kid just isn't going to enter their heads as having any relevance whatsoever.

Blogger RobertT September 27, 2012 11:18 AM  

This is quite a coincidence. After being run out of the homeland they had occupied for 1,000 years, the Jews fragmented and went to live in every area and and hamlet of the world, where they were hated for being Jewish and for being financially successful and influential. Every now and then they were run out of somewhere, hunted down and killed. But they still are a unique. thriving, successful people group. They didn't disappear from the face of the earth, but actually prospered and grew. How is that possible?

Anonymous scoobius dubious September 27, 2012 11:21 AM  

"a power struggle of the sort that always seems to wind up with the Jews being expelled through no fault of their own."

"Through no fault of their own."

Ah, Vox.

You a funny guy!!

Anonymous scoobius dubious September 27, 2012 11:27 AM  

"But they still are a unique. thriving, successful people group. They didn't disappear from the face of the earth, but actually prospered and grew. How is that possible?"

Your comment is mere selection bias, and a silly one at that. The Han Chinese started out as a bunch of warring petty kingdoms in the Wei River valley, but somehow they prospered and expanded, and despite being attacked and invaded and often conquered by every other swarm of opportunistic barbarians in all of Asia, they somehow thrived and survived. HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE? THE CHINESE MUST BE MAGIC!!!11!! MAGIC, I TELLS YA!

You want me to run the same program for the Greeks? The Celts? The Aztecs?

Blogger Survival Gardener, AKA David the Good September 27, 2012 11:30 AM  

Throw in the Kurds and the Roma...

Blogger The Aardvark September 27, 2012 11:42 AM  

Of course, that a vast swath of Christian America took Darby's and Scofield's Johnny-come-lately doctrines and converted them into orthodoxy (and best sellers) doesn't help much.

Anonymous scoobius dubious September 27, 2012 11:42 AM  

Little Miss Assumption
Sat on her presumption,
Eating her Kurds and Wei...

Blogger Monster September 27, 2012 11:43 AM  

Matthew 8:10-12 (The faith of the centurion)

When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

They're good at getting kicked out of places, that's for sure.

Anonymous Feh September 27, 2012 11:45 AM  

"They didn't disappear from the face of the earth, but actually prospered and grew. How is that possible?"

Many people don't have the same sort of discipline, attention to detail, and pride in their work as the Germans!

Blogger James Dixon September 27, 2012 11:49 AM  

> We're talking about mormons, right?

I thought we were talking about Scientologists.

> Your analysis is highly flawed in suggesting there is a dominance of any sort by American Jews in DC,

From http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/usjewpop.html, Jews make up 2.1% of the US population.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Members_of_the_111th_United_States_Congress,
"The 111th Congress included the most religiously diverse House in history, including ... 31 Jews...

I'll let you do the math, George. 31/535 is what percentage?

> Related, maybe, per Game, the long term goal (whether even self-realized or not), is to score enough gentile women to such an extent that they're no longer a minority.

Except that Judaism passes through the mother, not the father.

Anonymous 11B September 27, 2012 12:00 PM  

There was an attempt in American history, albeit briefly and highly localized, to expel Jews.

Anonymous VD September 27, 2012 12:07 PM  

They didn't disappear from the face of the earth, but actually prospered and grew. How is that possible?

Considering that they did it in company with every single other currently surviving group of people on the Earth, except perhaps the pygmies and a few aboriginal peoples, it's hardly miraculous.

And they haven't exactly thrived in comparison with many others, if you consider how long it took them to finally secure a homeland that half of them still don't want to live in anyhow. The Mongols managed considerably more in a single generation.

Anonymous HH September 27, 2012 12:08 PM  

"....not everyone swaggers around proudly. Only loudmouth jackass new york jews, who aren't much different than typical loudmouth jackass new yorkers."

I don't think NY Jews or NYer's in general have the sole concession on load mouth jackass behavior. Some of the nicest people I have even met have been Jewish while some of the biggest jerks have been Christians. Jackasses seem to be evenly distributed through out the population independent of religion.

Its is an interesting side note as to why Jews have been hated so much over the ages. An old Jewish friend told me that their religion required the ability to read and thus Jews tended to be more educated than others, they therefore tended to have jobs in fields where intelligence/literacy was required and thus entered into business/trading/finance. He said it also didn't help that the official position of the Church for 1800 years was that Jews were the Christ killers. Its always convenient to have enemies and someone to blame...

It would be interesting in a future post to hear more about this..

Blogger rcocean September 27, 2012 12:11 PM  

You want to expel the Jews? Only over the dead bodies of Pat Robertson, millions of "Christian" Zionists, and most Democrat party fund-raisers.

Anonymous Roundtine September 27, 2012 12:15 PM  

Jews have never had this much open control, so there is no historical precedent. Just as one example, Jews of the 1940s were very pro-American, mom & pop, apple pie, truth, justice and the American way. God Bless America and White Christmas were written by a Jewish man, to give two prominent examples. They were influential, but they weren't shaping the culture to their ends, they were promoting the American ideals. This is what the first article is talking about, in part.

In the 2000s, talk of the Israel Lobby has gone mainstream among the left- and right-wing bloggers and radical politicians. It will go mainstream next, especially if the public is heavily against another war. It's just a numbers game, it only takes a small percentage of Americans to talk about "dual loyalties" or similar charges openly and there are now almost enough Muslims alone to pull it off (good job on the immigration policy). Things such as Facebook, Twitter, etc. make it possible. Immigrants also are much more anti-semitic and the immigrant population is huge. Eventually, someone mainstream, like a 60 Minutes reporter, will put the question at the center of American debate.

I hope their isn't an expulsion or anything approaching that level, but I can see a path that breaks with 85 years of history.

Blogger Vox September 27, 2012 12:20 PM  

Its is an interesting side note as to why Jews have been hated so much over the ages. An old Jewish friend told me that their religion required the ability to read and thus Jews tended to be more educated than others, they therefore tended to have jobs in fields where intelligence/literacy was required and thus entered into business/trading/finance.

It has nothing to do with either intelligence or literacy. Jews aren't much smarter than Europeans; Anglicans have a higher average intelligence. It has primarily to do with the Christian prohibition on usury, which left Jews with a virtual monopoly. That's why the various European kingdoms kept letting them back in, then kicking them out. I'd be willing to bet it was correlated with debt-based economic booms and busts.

Which ties right back into the posted juxtaposition.

Anonymous Azimus September 27, 2012 12:23 PM  

So... I'm not clear what the goal is here... peace in the middle east?

So, for the sake of argument, let's the US not only expels US Jews but directly invades and destroys modern Israel, including the complete annihilation of the Jewish people. Peace at last!

Of course the Christians will have to go too... sorry Lebanon! Sorry Egypt! (etc) The US is bringing the hurt to your neighborhood too!

Now we're all Muslim, great! Then of course the Turks and the Kurds, Armenians, Persians, Pashtun, etc will have to go.

Now we're all Muslim Arabs, great! But it's just so hard to deal with those pesky Shi'ites, you know with the ancient squabble about the Caliphate and all - even though there hsan't been a Caliph for going on a century. So, sorry Shi'a, your time has come.

Now we're all Muslim, Arab, Sunnis, great! But then only some of us are pure Arabs of the Qahtanian Arab tribes, not those filthy Adnanis. So, sorry all you other "arabized" tribes, you've got to go!

And so on, and so forth.

If you really want to bring peace to the Middle East there are only two solutions:

1. Kill everyone or

2. Pump all the petroleum out - and truthfully that would only bring a return to the stone-age tribal infighting background noise of history. So really you have only one option.

Becoming convinced that a Israel-less Middle East would be peaceful is something like being convinced that if you don't make your 4 year old screaming daughter eat her beans there will be peace.

Anonymous Roundtine September 27, 2012 12:28 PM  

The goal is to ignore the region as much as possible. Pax America is over, (modern) Fortress America is making a comeback.

Anonymous 11B September 27, 2012 12:34 PM  

Its is an interesting side note as to why Jews have been hated so much over the ages.

In the case of Spain and the Balkans it probably has something to do with the fact that Jews, or at least a number of them, openly supported muslim invaders in Christian lands.


Anonymous scoobius dubious September 27, 2012 12:35 PM  

"If you really want to bring peace to the Middle East there are only two solutions"

Who cares about your fake solutions? Who wants to bring peace to the Middle East? Why should any American care whether or not there is peace in the Middle East? Who gives a flying f*ck about the noxious people in the Middle East? Here is a simple, rational Middle East policy for actual, real, single-loyalty Americans:

1. Hello, exotic incomprehensible Middle Easterners! Here's your money, for the oil, just like we agreed.
2. Okay, now: Give us the oil. Like we agreed!
3. No, we don't want your date-bricks or your funny rugs or your Islamic missionaries. All we want is the oil. See you next week! For more money, in exchange for oil, and nothing else!
4. And remember -- Don't come here! We'll kill you if you do!! Ciao! Enjoy your money! And don't use it to come here!

So really, I still can't understand: what is the issue here?


Anonymous morocco tours September 27, 2012 12:36 PM  

nice blog

Anonymous Anonymous September 27, 2012 12:48 PM  

Disclosure, I'm Jewish, Israeli.

1. I don't see any repeating of history. A Jewish state didn't exist for the last 2000 years. We got nukes and ability to inflict significant violence to protect ourselves. This is a different situation.

2. Regarding "If not, what is the benefit of swaggering proudly rather than tiptoeing politely when one is a tiny minority of the population."

Why should American Jews be worried and tiptoe? you're just a bunch of keyboard heroes without any significant political or financial power. And in any case, the problem of American Jews in not antisemitism, but rather lack of antisemitism, which leads to reduction in the Jewish identity and assimilation. Go try to expel the Jews, that would be awesome. Send them to Israel where all the horrendous power grabbing Jews live together have more startups per head than any other place on earth.

3. Americans tend to wildly exaggerate their power and influence of their country. Sometime it is pretty amazing to see. While I thank you for any support you give, it is only several percents of the Israeli budget. Israel existed before US supported it, and got nukes before the US supported it, and we will exist if the US will not support us. You're pretty great, but not that great. Not everything in the world is due to American involvement, and you're not that rich to give game changing assistance.

Blogger JDC September 27, 2012 12:49 PM  

Quote from FUBAR NATION (Ben) who aren't much different than typical loudmouth jackass new yorkers.

I spit my Rock Star out my nose when I read that. Recently had a guest preacher - who stayed at our house for the weekend. Great guy, but I shared with him something he wasn't even aware of. Every 5 minutes or so he had to remind everyone and anyone he was speaking to that he was, "from New York." I told him we knew - he didn't have to tell us anymore. He still did. I wouldn't label him as a loudmouth jackass - but a loudmouth is appropriate.

Anonymous . September 27, 2012 12:59 PM  

Just as one example, Jews of the 1940s were very pro-American, mom & pop, apple pie, truth, justice and the American way.

Ummmmm... not including the ones who were Communists and traitors, I guess... categories in which they were over-represented...

Anonymous 11B September 27, 2012 12:59 PM  

Americans tend to wildly exaggerate their power and influence of their country. Sometime it is pretty amazing to see. While I thank you for any support you give, it is only several percents of the Israeli budget.

Keep in mind our aid to Israel is not just the direct money we give, but also in loan guarantees, discounted or free military equipment and free trade agreements. In addition, we have been spending billions on backwaters like Egypt and Jordan to bribe them into keeping the peace with Israel.

Given Israel's status as a first world economy, with unmatched military might in the Mideast, I would support cutting all foreign aid to the Mideast( Israel, Egypt, etc.). We are not as fortunate as Israel and have huge deficits that need to be addressed.

Anonymous I like Ike September 27, 2012 1:03 PM  

The scoobius solution is also known as "American policy prior to 1967"...

Anonymous Daniel September 27, 2012 1:05 PM  

You want to expel the Jews? Only over the dead bodies of Pat Robertson, millions of "Christian" Zionists, and most Democrat party fund-raisers.

Demographics, sir. Pat Robertson has one foot in the grave, Christian Zionists are, statistically, in his age group, and the political party money is not where it was in '81, for example. Way too many people groups in the U.S. that don't have the same history with Israel as were present during the Cold War.

Anonymous scoobius dubious September 27, 2012 1:14 PM  

"Disclosure, I'm Jewish, Israeli."


"Why should American Jews be worried and tiptoe? you're just a bunch of keyboard heroes without any significant political or financial power."

"Why should American Jews be worried and tiptoe? you're just a bunch of keyboard heroes without any significant political or financial power."


"Why should American Jews be worried and tiptoe? you're just a bunch of keyboard heroes without any significant political or financial power."

"Disclosure, I'm Jewish, Israeli."

"Why should American Jews be worried and tiptoe? you're just a bunch of keyboard heroes without any significant political or financial power."


"Why should American Jews be worried and tiptoe? you're just a bunch of keyboard heroes without any significant political or financial power."


"Why should American Jews be worried and tiptoe? you're just a bunch of keyboard heroes without any significant political or financial power."


"Disclosure, I'm Jewish, Israeli."

"Why should American Jews be worried and tiptoe? you're just a bunch of keyboard heroes without any significant political or financial power."


Thanks!!!

Blogger Vox September 27, 2012 1:14 PM  

I don't see any repeating of history. A Jewish state didn't exist for the last 2000 years. We got nukes and ability to inflict significant violence to protect ourselves. This is a different situation.

First, please pick a name, any name. Anonymous comments aren't permitted because it's too difficult to keep everyone straight. Second, nukes aren't a credible deterrent against a much larger country with more of them. Israel can defend itself against Egypt or Iran. It can't defend itself against the USA, China, Russia, or India. Turkey and Pakistan, perhaps. As a general rule, I don't find "this time it's different" is an argument that tends to hold up very well.

Why should American Jews be worried and tiptoe? you're just a bunch of keyboard heroes without any significant political or financial power.

The whole point of my post is to point out that no amount of political and financial power can save a tiny minority that doesn't respect the interests of the overwhelming majority. If America was genuinely anti-semitic, every single Jew in the country could be wiped out before noon tomorrow. Easily... and no amount of influence in DC or with the Fed would make a bit of difference. Consider the Sicilian Vespers... and the French not only had political and financial power, but military power as well.

The point isn't what any "keyboard heroes" here on the blog think - and many of us are generally well-disposed towards both Israel and the Jewish people. The point is that the intelligence agencies and other powerful societal forces are beginning to question the beneficence of the observable Jewish occupation of the societal high ground. I think you've missed the point that this post is not some sort of threat, but rather, a friendly observation that certain historical patterns appear to be in the process of forming again. You may well disagree; many Americans will too.

Americans tend to wildly exaggerate their power and influence of their country.

The fact that so many nations come to the USA with their hands out, and hire thousands of lobbyists in DC to influence US policy tends to indicate otherwise.

Anonymous Wayne September 27, 2012 1:18 PM  

...[America's] not that rich to give game changing assistance.

America's broke, too poor to give anybody any assistance (which is partially how we got poor in the first place).

Anonymous Noah B. September 27, 2012 1:24 PM  

The government shouldn't be giving out foreign aid. If individuals want to contribute to a country we're not at war with, fine. And I don't see any reason we should tolerate foreign influence over elected officials and government employees, regardless of what country we're talking about. And clearly, there is no reason we should be obliged to militarily support another country that is not similarly obliged to support us.

Still, blaming Israel for the US foreign relations difficulties in the Middle East seems incredibly naive. Even if they do manage to wipe out Israel, I suspect they'll find something else to fight about shortly thereafter. Peace in the Middle East is a pipe dream.

Anonymous Stilicho September 27, 2012 1:24 PM  

Why should American Jews be worried and tiptoe? you're just a bunch of keyboard heroes without any significant political or financial power.

Exhibit A. Sorry Ben, it isn't just New Yorkers.

And in any case, the problem of American Jews in not antisemitism, but rather lack of antisemitism, which leads to reduction in the Jewish identity and assimilation.

More Cowbell!

While I thank you for any support you give, it is only several percents of the Israeli budget. Israel existed before US supported it, and got nukes before the US supported it, and we will exist if the US will not support us. You're pretty great, but not that great.

So long and thanks for all the shekels? If only. If the support of the U.S. is not needed, one must wonder why so much money, time, effort, ink, etc. is expended on solidifying and expanding that support. Why does a hawk like Bibi always seek U.S. support as a first priority? Just to let us feel important I suppose. Jews going their own way. You just might be on to something.

Anonymous Gen. Kong September 27, 2012 1:42 PM  

rienzi:
ROTFLOL! Are you serious, or is this sarcasm? For good or ill, Jews are represented way the hell out of proportion to their numbers in all three places. For goodness sake, they've utterly dominated the film industry practically from its inception. Just to clue you in: Louis B. Mayer and Sam Goldwyn were not Methodists from Nebraska. Thats just one example. I could go on and on and on.

Rienzi, the George troll is pathetically stupid and spouts Marxist gibberish continually, all the while moralizing in the usual fashion of leftists. Don't waste your time.

Anonymous George September 27, 2012 1:45 PM  

VD Said:

"the point that this post is...that certain historical patterns appear to be in the process of forming again."

The absurdity of this claim can't be overstated. The patterns you refer to are ones that presumably lead to Jews being expelled form America. Once again, anyone who thinks that such a thing could happen in America has zero appreciation for the American culture, it's past and the history of the 20th century. It boggles the mind.

Anonymous VD September 27, 2012 1:49 PM  

It boggles the mind.

Come now, George. You've demonstrated in considerable detail that you don't have a mind to boggle.

Anonymous Nah September 27, 2012 1:51 PM  

Second, nukes aren't a credible deterrent against a much larger country with more of them.

Sure they are. The British and French deterrents were most definitely credible against the Soviets. The Kremlin calculus was "even if we totally obliterate the Brits, we get a few dozen cities nuked, and that's just not worth it."

Egypt and Syria don't even have a lot of major cities. They'd have to be, um, very committed to the goal of crushing Israel if that effort would clearly result in the total obliteration of Egypt and Syria.

Anonymous paradox September 27, 2012 1:52 PM  

With the hold dispensationalism has on Christian Zionist, I would expect Lutherans to be expelled before Jews.

Anonymous antonym September 27, 2012 1:54 PM  

I have tried to find a source for this paper, with no luck. Everything leads to this article:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article32304.htm

Franklin Lamb is currently doing research in Lebanon and volunteers with the Palestine Civil Rights Campaign and the Sabra-Shatila Foundation. Lamb is the author of: Israel’s 1982 War in Lebanon: Eyewitness Chronicles of the Invasion and Occupation, International Legal Responsibility for the Sabra-Shatila Massacre, The Price We Pay: A Quarter Century of Israel’s Use of American Weapons in Lebanon...

Given the author's personal biases, the lack of a source, and the general screechy partisan tone of the 'excerpts', it's fairly certain that the article in question is propaganda and the report doesn't actually exist.

Anonymous 11B September 27, 2012 2:04 PM  

Once again, anyone who thinks that such a thing could happen in America has zero appreciation for the American culture, it's past and the history of the 20th century.

George, in my lifetime I have stopped thinking that unthinkable things can never happen, especially if you base that opinion on events of the last 50 years. Here are few examples of changes that have shocked me and would have shocked Americans in 1950.

1) The fall of the USSR - I never thought this would happen, let alone peacefully.

2) The rise of China - When I was a kid, China was a backwater. As recently as the early 1980s they more resembled North Korea than any first rate nation.

3) Gay marriage. I had never heard of it, never imagined it and was totally shocked it ever came about.

4) Demographic change - I grew up where I was the minority, i.e. I was the only kid who was not German, British or Irish in my school. Now I go to the post office and sometimes I am the only European in the place. I never saw that coming.

I am sure everyone has a list like this with their own examples. But the point is things that may seem unthinkable do happen. In the case of Jewish persecution, it is really not that unthinkable given its occurrences in the past. Even in America, as recently as 1862, the Union, the so-called enlightened ones, tried to evict the Jews.

Anonymous George September 27, 2012 2:12 PM  

Antonym wrote:

"Given the author's personal biases, the lack of a source, and the general screechy partisan tone of the 'excerpts', it's fairly certain that the article in question is propaganda and the report doesn't actually exist."

Bingo!!

Anonymous Gen. Kong September 27, 2012 2:15 PM  

11B:
In the case of Spain and the Balkans it probably has something to do with the fact that Jews, or at least a number of them, openly supported muslim invaders in Christian lands.

The overwhelming majority of Jews living in western countries support Muslim invasion/colonization to this day. Even in the EUSSR, where Jews are increasingly attacked violently by Muslims (who are merely being obedient Muslims in doing so), Jewish groups continue to agitate for open borders, increased colonization, hate-speech laws, etc. Here in the Banksta Banana Republick, the Muslim population has literally doubled since 9/11/2001 - largely via immigration. Every major Jewish organization in the country supports the open borders policy that made it possible. Even the stinking Neo-Trots, who love to dog-whistle about the great "clash of civilizations" between Christendom and Islam in order to stir up idiotic bovine Evangelicals into signing up for their great crusade to make the Umma safe for feminism, etc. - refuse to even discuss the idea of stopping the colonization of the USSA with Muslims from all over the Umma.

Anonymous Porter September 27, 2012 2:16 PM  

It's always amusing to hear the exculpatory "A jew wrote White Christmas" line. Yes, he turned the birth of christ into an ode to precipitation. Thanks.

Jews have been excised in the past for precisely the same reason they will be in the future: They create more harm than benefit to their host population. Our posterity could be spared many moistened cheeks if only we retained this knowledge.

Anonymous George September 27, 2012 2:16 PM  

11B wrote:

"I am sure everyone has a list like this with their own examples. But the point is things that may seem unthinkable do happen. In the case of Jewish persecution, it is really not that unthinkable given its occurrences in the past. Even in America, as recently as 1862, the Union, the so-called enlightened ones, tried to evict the Jews."

How do you feel about the possibility of a return to slavery in the U.S. or a return to no suffrage for women in the U.S or a return to putting Japanese in prison camps in the U.S. or a return to Prohibition in the U.S.

Yes, somethings might return. But the fact his some things are so unlikely to return that discussing the possibility often only amounts to hoping it will. Expelling jews is one of those things.

One really does need to use their brain, rather than rhetoric and emotion before writing that kind of speculation and passing it off as credible. It boggles the mind.

Anonymous George September 27, 2012 2:18 PM  

Porter wrote:

"They create more harm than benefit to their host population. Our posterity could be spared many moistened cheeks if only we retained this knowledge."

See here's the problem. The jews are not being "hosted" in the U.S. any more than WASPS or Catholics or Blacks or asians are being hosted. Once you figure this out, they you realize just how silly, emotional and rhetorical this whole discussion is.

Anonymous Stilicho September 27, 2012 2:31 PM  

You really have to love the fact that George is now reduced to accusing others of engaging in silly, emotional rhetoric. But, one must presume that he's accurately expressing how he feels about it.

Anonymous 11B September 27, 2012 3:06 PM  

How do you feel about the possibility of a return to slavery in the U.S. or a return to no suffrage for women in the U.S or a return to putting Japanese in prison camps in the U.S. or a return to Prohibition in the U.S.

How I feel is immaterial. What seems unthinkable today can happen tomorrow.

Anonymous Azimus September 27, 2012 3:18 PM  

scoobius dubious September 27, 2012 12:35 PM
"If you really want to bring peace to the Middle East there are only two solutions"

Who cares about your fake solutions?


Dude. Relax. You're going to blow a heart valve or something.

Here is a simple, rational Middle East policy for actual, real, single-loyalty Americans:

I was addressing the line of thinking that Jews had something to do with peace, or lack thereof, in the Middle East, when it really was the oil. I think we're on the same page here, except maybe my diastolic BP is a little lower than yours.





Anonymous Azimus September 27, 2012 3:28 PM  

George
How do you feel about the possibility of a return to slavery in the U.S. or a return to no suffrage for women in the U.S or a return to putting Japanese in prison camps in the U.S. or a return to Prohibition in the U.S.


I find it amusing, George, that you mentioned Women's Suffrage and Prohibition in the same sentence. One a great "birth of freedom" or whatever, and the other "an insufferable tyranny", or whatever, and how the one led almost directly to the other.

Blogger Bob Wallace September 27, 2012 3:52 PM  

"We're talking about mormons, right?"

Yes, I have to admit, I am amazed at the number of spies and traitors Mormons have contributed to America.

Oh, wait...wrong tribe.

Anonymous stg58 September 27, 2012 5:03 PM  

Jews of the 1940s were very pro-American, mom & pop, apple pie, truth, justice and the American way. God Bless America and White Christmas were written by a Jewish man, to give two prominent examples. They were influential, but they weren't shaping the culture to their ends, they were promoting the American ideals.

Roundtine is exactly right. My grandfather was a captain in Patton's 3rd Army, from N. Africa to Berlin. My grandparents and that generation were hard core Americans. Every one in my family who didn't get here from Poland or Austria before WWII ceased to exist in the ovens.

Anonymous Holla September 27, 2012 5:14 PM  


*George Said:
The absurdity of this claim can't be overstated. The patterns you refer to are ones that presumably lead to Jews being expelled form America. Once again, anyone who thinks that such a thing could happen in America has zero appreciation for the American culture, it's past and the history of the 20th century. It boggles the mind.*

I'm not sure about the other large immigrant groups, but I can say with some authority that Latinos, while not exactly anti-Semitic, are certainly more "aware" of Jews than the type of American I think you are referring to. And don't have any particular attachment to Holocaust studies or slavish respect for the Greatest Generation.

I don't see any reason the future Hispanic majority couldn't be convinced to scapegoat the Jews, even in the face of their own partial culpability in the coming economic collapse.

Anonymous Monkey Boy September 27, 2012 5:48 PM  

"God Bless America and White Christmas were written by a Jewish man"

He wasn't doing this because he wanted to promote American ideals he was doing this because he understood the American mindset and wanted to profiteer of it. He wrote "God Bless America" even though he was an agnostic himself because he understood American sensibility's and set out to make money off it even though he didn't believe it himself. "White Christmas" is a secular song as well. The kind of song that disconnected Christmas from it true meaning and its connection to Jesus and instead turned it into an inane message about good will to all men erasing all the Christianity from it in the process. Songs like this were at the forefront of the secularization of Christmas that we see today.

Anonymous George September 27, 2012 6:04 PM  

Holla said:

"I don't see any reason the future Hispanic majority couldn't be convinced to scapegoat the Jews, even in the face of their own partial culpability in the coming economic collapse."

Really? No reason at all? Not a single one?

As for the Jew's culpability in the coming economic collapse (you've been listening to too many radio commercials offering to sell you gold) I'm willing to bet that those who have done things that would in your view equal culpability are far more likely to be white anglo saxon christians. So there's that...and your bigotry.

Anonymous Monkey Boy September 27, 2012 6:12 PM  

"I'm willing to bet that those who have done things that would in your view equal culpability are far more likely to be white anglo saxon christians."

Sandy Weill, Gary Cohn and Lloyd Blankfein are all famous Anglo-Saxons.

Anonymous 11B September 27, 2012 6:47 PM  

I'm willing to bet that those who have done things that would in your view equal culpability are far more likely to be white anglo saxon christians.

If Jews are as overrepresented in politics and finance as advertised, then they probably share a disproportionate share of the blame for our current mess.

Anglo-Saxon culpability lies mainly in the fact that they, the ethnic group with the greatest stake in America, allowed others to push them aside and drive the agenda of the past 50 years resulting in the heretofore unthinkable idea of America being a majority non-white nation.

Anonymous Sexual Chocolate Imperion September 27, 2012 7:13 PM  

"The president has let (the Iraq war) proceed on automatic pilot, making no corrections in the face of accumulating evidence that his strategy is failing and cannot be rescued. He lets the United States fly further and further into trouble, squandering its influence, money and blood, facilitating the gains of our enemies."

"An attempt to extort Congress into providing funds by keeping U.S. forces in peril.. surely would constitute the 'high crime' of squandering the lives of soldiers and Marines for his own personal interest."

"As many critics have pointed, out, terrorism is not an enemy. It is a tactic. Because the United States itself has a long record of supporting terrorists and using terrorist tactics, the slogans of today's war on terrorism merely makes the United States look hypocritical to the rest of the world."

"The invasion of Iraq may well turn out to be the greatest strategic disaster in American history."


So, what would all the aforementioned quotes have in common, except being stated by the same person? Maybe this one quote encompasses them all...

"It's pretty hard to imagine us going into Iraq without the strong lobbying efforts from AIPAC [American Israel Public Affairs Committee] and the neocons, who think they know what's good for Israel more than Israel knows."
-- William Eldridge Odom

The day we have a president, that appoints another NSA Chief, that states similar/same sentiments, will be the day that America is waxing back towards some measure of greatness. I emphasize "some," because we still have a ways to go. We have yet the courage to discuss Golden Lily, Black Eagle Trust/Project Hammer, and those crimes [1] associated. Until then, and ONLY then, will this nation be able to fully exorcise their demons of the events of September 11, 2001 ...




------------
[1] One then asks, what does this have to do with Israel/AIPAC? Perhaps the answer lies in page 23, of Collateral Damage: U.S. Covert Operations and the Terrorist Attacks on September 11, 2001. Pages 7, 8, and 13 are illustrated as well. Why "Reagan Era" officials have some answering to do to the American people. Some are deceased. Some are still alive to talk.

Anonymous George September 27, 2012 7:29 PM  

11B said:

"Anglo-Saxon culpability lies mainly in the fact that they, the ethnic group with the greatest stake in America, allowed others to push them aside and drive the agenda of the past 50 years resulting in the heretofore unthinkable idea of America being a majority non-white nation."

Why would Anglo-Saxons have any reason to feel a group identity such that they together would want to push back against any other ethnic group? Furthermore, if one must think primarily as an ethnic group, it's safe to say that anglo saxons have over the past 50 years and do no have the vast majority of control over nearly every institution of consequence.

Anonymous Holla September 27, 2012 7:34 PM  

Hey George:

Did you read the word "scapegoat" in my post, you dumb fuck?

Anonymous George September 27, 2012 7:37 PM  

Holla:

If you think Hispanics can be convinced as a group to scapegoat the jews for this coming financial collapse you fantasize about then you simply don't understand hispanics or the American culture. Furthermore, trying to blame any particular ethnic group, be it Jews or hispanics, for a financial crisis simply has foundation in reality, unless that reality is somehow guided by some fantastical notion that ethnicity matters in issues of macroeconomics in America.

Blogger Chelm Wiseman September 27, 2012 7:40 PM  

First, I would like to say that I don't believe that this paper exists. Nor do I believe that it was commissioned by any intelligence agency. Nobody is actually showing a copy of the paper or giving any real references... just a leaked "Top Secret" document. I guess it is the protocols of the elders of the american intelligence community. OY!

In answer to your questions:

Have the Jews ever come out on top in such a conflict?

1. Yes, read the book of Esther. I know it has been long time, but this exile is much longer and more difficult.

If not, what is the benefit of swaggering proudly rather than tiptoeing politely when one is a tiny minority of the population.

Remove the references to Jews and ask this question on your other blog.

Anonymous Sexual Chocolate September 27, 2012 7:41 PM  

One person alive today, speaks of a catharsis coming for this nation. In fact, catharsis on multiple levels. Interesting that he speaks in terms that this process has not been performed since WWII. That is, on the level that it is necessary. He speaks of "break[ing] through the status quo." Then goes on referencing Orwell, "when deceit is universal, speaking the truth is a revolutionary act." Speaking truth. When we get down to "total truth," in the process of national catharsis, boy is that going to be a tough nut to crack. Regardless, it MUST be cracked. [why it called -- catharsis : purgation, purifying, cleansing...]

Interesting what he says about Israel as well. Dare I say, echoing Odom from the grave?

Blogger Chelm Wiseman September 27, 2012 7:46 PM  

Because this sounds so much like a real report from the intelligence community:

Israel, given its current brutal occupation and belligerence cannot be salvaged any more than apartheid south Africa could be when as late as 1987 Israel was the only “Western” nation that upheld diplomatic ties with South Africa and was the last country to join the international boycott campaign before the regime collapsed;
The Israel leadership, with its increasing support of the 700,000 settlers in illegal colonies in the occupied West Bank is increasing out of touch with the political, military and economic realities of the Middle East;

Blogger James Dixon September 27, 2012 8:02 PM  

> Furthermore, trying to blame any particular ethnic group, be it Jews or hispanics, for a financial crisis simply has foundation in reality,

It probably has at least as much a foundation in reality as it did the last time. People don't really understand economics, and are usually willing to take an "authority"'s word on the matter.

Blogger TontoBubbaGoldstein September 27, 2012 10:08 PM  

ChemWiseman:*If not, what is the benefit of swaggering proudly rather than tiptoeing politely when one is a tiny minority of the population.*

Remove the references to Jews and ask this question on your other blog.


Heh. Well played sir.

Blogger TontoBubbaGoldstein September 27, 2012 10:14 PM  

How do you feel about the possibility of a return to slavery in the U.S. or a return to no suffrage for women in the U.S or a return to putting Japanese in prison camps in the U.S. or a return to Prohibition in the U.S. 

Yes, somethings might return. But the fact his some things are so unlikely to return that discussing the possibility often only amounts to hoping it will. Expelling jews is one of those things.




GEORGE, while I admire your optimism....you seem to be a poor student of history. We could see Prohibition in our lifetime. All the others are probably on the table in the next 50 to 200 years after TSHTF.

Blogger ruastatist2 September 27, 2012 11:32 PM  

Joseph Palmi: Let me ask you something... we Italians, we got our families, and we got the church; the Irish, they have the homeland, Jews their tradition; even the niggers, they got their music. What about you people, Mr. Wilson, what do you have?
Edward Wilson: The United States of America. The rest of you are just visiting.
If only!

Anonymous Holla September 27, 2012 11:48 PM  

"Furthermore, trying to blame any particular ethnic group, be it Jews or hispanics, for a financial crisis simply has foundation in reality, unless that reality is somehow guided by some fantastical notion that ethnicity matters in issues of macroeconomics in America."

You are really dopey.

The German's went Jew-crazy when they started to pay for their bread with wheel-barrow fulls of Deutschemarks.

It doesn't take much to mobilize people.

As for "ethnicity," it's more a question of historical loyalty. American's are, by and large, tolerant of Jews because plenty of American's died in WWII. Jews are part of the hero-worship and nostalgia of that time period.

Immigrants, no matter how many generations on, cannot psychically respond in the same way as those who have grand parents or great grandparents who served or fought in the war.

I imagine that you firmly believe that Blacks are still suffering from the ill effects of the legacy of slavery. While I agree with that position, I don't believe that, say, a Kenyan immigrant suffers those effects in the exact same way as a descendant of slaves.

Similarly, why should a new Mexican immigrant give a shit about WWII?

Anonymous Ceinwyn September 28, 2012 12:04 AM  

I would rather the US be an ally/friend/whatever to Israel than any filthy Muslim country. Period. Why do we send money to any of them is the question......

Anonymous Azimus September 28, 2012 12:35 AM  

Ceinwyn September 28, 2012 12:04 AM I would rather the US be an ally/friend/whatever to Israel than any filthy Muslim country. Period. Why do we send money to any of them is the question......

We send money to the Arabs because if we didn't someone else would (Russia, China, etc), and we would lose our petro-dollar edge. We send money to Israel to help counter the money we send to the Arab countries. Call it a guilt complex.

Arabs get dollars for oil, regardless if the US or France or Burundi is buying it. In turn they have to buy something with the dollars - a lot of that is US treasuries (though they can obviously exchange the dollars for a cost to other currencies).

So for the few billions we send in aid to the Arab nations, we get a 2-3% market discount on petroleum compared to countries operating with other currencies (changing rubles, yuan, etc into dollars before buying), and are able to provide "products" that the Arabs can buy with those dollars (because they invest very little in their own nations, obviously) in the form of treasury notes for borrowing the money right back again. So, in otherwords, we get the oil, and the money it took to buy it. The Arabs get 2% yield and a piece of paper that says we'll pay them back. Essentially we get free oil. That is, unless you think we're going to pay off our national debt.

Blogger Vox September 28, 2012 4:29 AM  

Remove the references to Jews and ask this question on your other blog.

Yes, it is effective when you're trying to fuck someone. Now, how is this wise when you're a statistically insignificant fraction of the population?

I don't live in the USA. Americans are a tiny fraction of the population here. And I think we would have to be insane to follow the American Jewish example, that strikes me as a very good way to have the entire population turn on us. They already aren't very fond of those Americans who refuse to integrate well.

Blogger Chelm Wiseman September 28, 2012 5:53 AM  

Yes, it is effective when you're trying to fuck someone. Now, how is this wise when you're a statistically insignificant fraction of the population?

Wow! It is amazing how quickly you will throw away a years of making a single point in order to score a quick put down against a Jew. How many times have you said that AlphaGame isn't about sex, it is about status... which just happens to be attractive. How many times have you argued that the applications go far beyond sex?

Also, don't try to move the argument, you did not ask if it was wise... you asked what the benefit was. Which I found funny because you have a whole blog dedicated to the benefits "swaggering bravely" in social situations even when such swaggering is unwarranted by your actual status. I would have thought the benefit would be self evident to you.... but it wasn't because your level of emotion on this particular topic overrides your logical thinking.

If you think that you are the first person to notice that Jews are quarrelsome, arrogant, and stiff-necked, you are not very well read.

Using a phony "top secret" intelligence report, that looks like a Hamas press release and comparing it with a column by a Jew who clearly does not know the history of the emancipation of Jews in Europe (which did not involve much tiptoeing) ... seems to me to be a particularly ham handed attempt to make your point.

I expect better when I come here and I might start asking for my money back.

Blogger Chelm Wiseman September 28, 2012 7:21 AM  

I was wrong, it wasn't a Hamas press release, it was a Hezbollah press release...

Hezbollah Supporter Franklin Lamb Urging the US to Forge Israel-Free Mid-East
http://www.jewishpress.com/news/hezbollah-supporter-franklin-lamb-urging-the-us-to-forge-israel-free-mid-east/2012/09/04/

Anonymous Rollory September 28, 2012 7:27 AM  

I have never before seen someone claim that Jewish obstreperousness makes them sexually attractive.

If that is seriously the goal, it isn't working.

Anonymous Prof William Huggins of Ettenmoor University September 28, 2012 8:09 AM  

I have never before seen someone claim that Jewish obstreperousness makes them sexually attractive.

If that is seriously the goal, it isn't working.


Well, it does fit the notion that they are trying to (cough cough) do something to the rest of the population...

Blogger TontoBubbaGoldstein September 28, 2012 8:40 AM  

Azimus:
Essentially we get free oil.

We who, Paleface?

Blogger TontoBubbaGoldstein September 28, 2012 9:07 AM  

I expect better when I come here and I might start asking for my money back.

Yeah. Good luck with that!
When you call you never talk to the same person twice. Onetime, you'll get Vox ( but Spacebunny's in charge of refunds and she's out of the office-- but will call you right back!) She never does.
Next time you call, you'll get SB, but she'll need Vox to "authorise " the refund. (See above.)

Next try you will get the gardener/ nanny/cook who " no speak English."

"Our accountant/bookkeeper/secretary is out of the office/country (or quit or sick or on strike or on vacation.)

"It's a problem with MasterCard."
"It's a problem with the bank."
"The check's in the mail."
"Bank holiday in Italy."

Anonymous Monkey Boy September 28, 2012 11:29 AM  

Chelm Wiseman the guy going by the name of Vox isn't him. Vox uses the tag VD when he is posting in the comment section.

Anonymous Monkey Boy September 28, 2012 11:39 AM  

My comment was deleted does that mean Vox is VD then.

Blogger Vox September 28, 2012 1:28 PM  

My comment was deleted does that mean Vox is VD then.

Different cores, same CPU. Also, your comment wasn't deleted, only spam-trapped.

Blogger Vox September 28, 2012 1:47 PM  

Wow! It is amazing how quickly you will throw away a years of making a single point in order to score a quick put down against a Jew. How many times have you said that AlphaGame isn't about sex, it is about status... which just happens to be attractive. How many times have you argued that the applications go far beyond sex?

Come now. You wanted a succinct throw down, we threw down, and judging by your reaction, it would appear I won. Also, I have never, ever, said AG isn't about sex; the hierarchy concerns "socio-sexual status". You're leaving the sub-set out of the set.

Also, don't try to move the argument, you did not ask if it was wise... you asked what the benefit was. Which I found funny because you have a whole blog dedicated to the benefits "swaggering bravely" in social situations even when such swaggering is unwarranted by your actual status. I would have thought the benefit would be self evident to you.... but it wasn't because your level of emotion on this particular topic overrides your logical thinking.

Now you're projecting, Chelm. I'm not emotional about this at all, whereas you are observably emoting all over the place. Do you truly not understand that interpersonal dynamics might be a bit different than intergroup societal dynamics?

If you think that you are the first person to notice that Jews are quarrelsome, arrogant, and stiff-necked, you are not very well read.

That's not the point. The point is, if Jews are as intelligent as they claim to be, why do they keep repeating the same idiotic error that gets them hated, killed, and expelled again and again? At what point will they realize that financial and political influence are no protection? I mean, seriously, what does "never again" even mean in that context? Do you honestly not see any problem in Ben Shalom Bernanke buying up ludicrous amounts of debt while the economy is on the verge of crashing? If I was an advisor to the CEO of Zion Inc., I'd be telling him to force every Jew out of DC and the financial industry as fast as possible. Do they really want to be the ones sitting at the controls when the meltdown takes place?

Using a phony "top secret" intelligence report, that looks like a Hamas press release and comparing it with a column by a Jew who clearly does not know the history of the emancipation of Jews in Europe (which did not involve much tiptoeing) ... seems to me to be a particularly ham handed attempt to make your point.

Perhaps. But it doesn't make the point irrelevant. I generally prefer to take various news reports and editorials at face value unless I am focused on analyzing their content. I mean, I occasionally report GDP and CPI, even though I am certain there is no way they are accurate. I simply thought the juxtaposition of those two articles was interesting and thought-provoking... hence the title.

I'd ask you to consider the following question. When someone tells you to slow down because he thinks you're driving too fast and you're going to crash, is that the act of an enemy who wants you to die in a car accident?

Blogger Chelm Wiseman September 30, 2012 9:36 AM  

When someone tells you to slow down because he thinks you're driving too fast and you're going to crash, is that the act of an enemy who wants you to die in a car accident?

I would say that it depends on the intent. If he sincerely is concerned about me dying in a car crash then of course he is not an enemy, but if his intent is simply to document a problem in order to justify future action against me, or as proof of my general unfitness for something... then it would be reasonable to consider that person hostile.

Is your intent the former or the latter?

Do you honestly not see any problem in Ben Shalom Bernanke buying up ludicrous amounts of debt while the economy is on the verge of crashing?

I have my opinions on the Fed, but it is not my area of expertise. I'll defer to your opinion on Brenake and the Fed. The only thing Bernanke and I have in common is the fact that we are Jewish. I have never once mentioned Bernanke to you... why do you keep bringing him up to me?

If I was an advisor to the CEO of Zion Inc., I'd be telling him to force every Jew out of DC and the financial industry as fast as possible. Do they really want to be the ones sitting at the controls when the meltdown takes place?

It wouldn't matter people would still blame the Jews. The problem is far bigger than the financial industry.

At what point will they realize that financial and political influence are no protection?

While financial and political influence are no protection... hiding and tip toeing are no protection either... a strong military is also no protection. They all give the illusion of protection, but there is only One source of protection.

The point is, if Jews are as intelligent as they claim to be, why do they keep repeating the same idiotic error that gets them hated, killed, and expelled again and again?

Finally you have asked an interesting question.

This is the central question of Judaism. Many religious Jews believe that when we finally do get it right and stop making the same mistakes over again, the messiah will come and the world will be redeemed.

Have you read the bible? There is a constant pattern of screwing up, punishment, forgiveness and redemption. Jews are currently in the second exile.

Individual Jews try to change the world. Sometimes they succeed for the better and sometimes the worse. You can complain all you want about the Fed, but how many of your friends or family have been saved from illness by treatments developed by Jewish doctors? Why don't you complain so loudly that Jews dominate the medical field? Or the hard sciences? Jews are just as overrepresented here as in the areas of finance and politics.

I have a few questions for you. As a believing Christian how do you explain the following:

1. Why did God pick the Hebrew language to reveal his law into the world? Why not some other language?
2. Why did He choose the Hebrews, Arrogant and stiff-necked as they are? Why not some other people?
3. Why did God exile the Hebrews to Babylon and redeem the Judeans (With some Benjaminites and Levites)?
4. Why was Jesus Jewish. Why wasn't he Roman, Greek, Anglo, Saxon, or Zoroastrian?
5. Why is it that among all the pre-christian religions of Europe, the Catholic Church destroyed them all and only Judaism remains?
6. Why did Europe struggle with the "Jewish question" for so many years?

Are these facts all accidents of history? Are they random occurrences? or is there some hint that they are part of the divine plan?

If the Jews are part of the divine plan which side do you, as a Christian, believe that they are on? God or Satan?





Anonymous Rollory October 01, 2012 10:49 AM  

"but if his intent is simply to document a problem in order to justify future action against me, or as proof of my general unfitness for something... then it would be reasonable to consider that person hostile."

So the cop who pulls you over for doing 60 in a residential area and writes up a reckless driving charge is an enemy?

I mean, I'm no fan of cops, and I wouldn't ever speak freely to one, but sometimes the cop is right, and bristling at the slightest suggestion of an outsider pointing out you've done something stupid doesn't solve the actual problem.

"Why don't you complain so loudly that Jews dominate the medical field? Or the hard sciences? Jews are just as overrepresented here as in the areas of finance and politics."

I'm not speaking for Vox, but in those examples, there is much less potential for a screwup to disastrously affect large numbers of people, and also screwups are generally more immediately measurable and visible. If a physicist makes a prediction about a particle and the experiments show he's wrong, well, that's the end of it. If a surgeon tries to argue that he actually did sew the heart up correctly and yet his autopsies show different in repeated deaths on the operating table, there are consequences. If a finance bigshot predicts debasing the currency will make everyone rich, the actual consequences are diffused enough through enough different aspects of life and over enough time that the cause and effect isn't immediately obvious, and it will be possible to keep fast-talking past objections for quite a while. Try reading some Paul Krugman columns for examples.

Blogger Chelm Wiseman October 01, 2012 9:59 PM  

Rollory Thanks for the reply, here are my answers to your questions.

So the cop who pulls you over for doing 60 in a residential area and writes up a reckless driving charge is an enemy?

No he is not an enemy, what you are saying actually proves my point... look at the police officer's intent. It is pretty clear he is doing the right thing. My point was that you have to look at someone's intent as well as their actions.

there is much less potential for a screwup to disastrously affect large numbers of people

I disagree. How many Jews were involved in the development and testing of the nuclear bomb?

Einstein, Oppenheimer, Szilard, Bohr, Bloch, Fuchs I am not certain that all of those I mention are Jews, but a survey of the last names listed in the Manhattan project indicates that Jews were way overrepresented in that group.

I don't suppose you will thank the Jews for saving so many American lives by eliminating the need to invade Japan? And somehow the Japanese don't seem to blame the Jews for their loss in WWII. It's strange.

I also don't suppose that you will thank the Jews when you and your family don't get polio this year? Large numbers of people were impacted by Salk's work.

Of course, with Oppenheimer and Salk... there were also the Rosenbergs and Benny Seigel.

My point is that these are all actions of individuals. Individuals who had great potential to do good or screw up. Vox chooses to see the Jews as a collective and then only identifies the bad.

Anonymous Rollory October 01, 2012 10:53 PM  

Richard Feynman is (was) a man I have always admired.

Again, I can't speak for Vox, but if I was to hazard a guess at why this particular focus, it would be because the correlation of Jewish involvement in finance, and Jewish expulsions by sovereignties that found something to object to in that involvement (such as a loss of sovereignty due to a loss of financial control), is something that recurs repeatedly through history. Currently, if one starts drawing up a list of major players on Wall Street and the Treasury department, many of the names are Jewish. This correlates with a particularly disastrous financial and economic policy - one opposed by a significant majority of the American people. The TARP, for example, was opposed 300 to 1 in the phone calls and letters Congress received. This did not prevent Congress from giving money to Goldman Sachs. Also, many American Jews - particularly those in positions of influence - take pride in their overt loyalty to Israel. Divided loyalties are rarely a problem in good times, but in lean times they start prompting hard questions, and the USA seems to be headed for an extended period of difficulties.

Physicists making the nuclear bomb was 50 years ago. The USA's finances were fine then (or soon would be seeing as how the rest of the industrialized world was in ruins). Financial disaster and lots of Jewish names in positions of responsibility at the same time is what's happening now.

It's not crazy to look at these events and say, hey, maybe the pattern is recurring. There doesn't even need to be an actual pattern underlying the events; it could be all a set of giant coincidences (although I personally don't think so). But humans are pattern-seeking creatures, and the perception that one exists can be more important than whether it actually does or doesn't.

Anonymous Steve October 02, 2012 12:05 AM  

Rollory is right. Pattern-recognition is the key. Recognizing that Jews are involved in all sorts of political, financial and media chicanery is no different than recognizing the black involvement in thuggish street crime. If Jews are worried about these perceptions, then maybe they should police their own people a little better.

In light of these obvious patterns, why should the population twist itself into knots maintaining the reputation of Jews, blacks, Muslims or other people?

As far as hard sciences...well...most hard science is useless puzzle-solving anyway. Most of these never need to be tested in the real world, that is, producing a real, workable technology that is an everyday application of the physical principles involved. The fact that we need to go back to the atom bomb as an example of any practical application of the hard sciences just shows you how empty most hard science really is.

Maybe the jewish presence in the hard sciences is the same kind of chicanery we see in finance, law and media: make up stuff like string theory and multiverses while citing each other's papers and publishing each others works to generate tenure and grant-money while producing nothing of value.

Blogger Chelm Wiseman October 02, 2012 8:35 AM  

Steve and Rollory - I am sorry, but you can't cherry pick your data and then claim it is pattern recognition.

Physicists making the nuclear bomb was 50 years ago.

The fact that we need to go back to the atom bomb as an example of any practical application of the hard sciences just shows you how empty most hard science really is.


I could also point to numerous examples in a more modern context:

If you look at a survey of all of the people who developed the underlying technologies of the internet you will see the Jews are overrepresented there as well. (Kleinrock, Shapiro, Wessler, Cohen, Kahn)

One of the google founders is Jewish (Sergey Brin), Facebook (Marc Zuckerberg)

My point is really quite simple: Jews are individuals. Many with great potential and the desire to change the world. But with great potential also comes great risk of a major screw up. If you have the tendency to notice Jewish involvement only when you see something you don't like... that is intellectually dishonest.


Anonymous WaterBoy October 02, 2012 12:54 PM  

Chelm, the way I read Vox can esaily be summed up in Santayana's quote: Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

Yes, Jews are individuals. But people historically have painted the group by the individual, whether rightly or wrongly. Not just Jews, but Muslims, Christians, blacks, whites, hispanics, etc...all have been painted by large brush strokes at one time or another.

It's not even that the Jewish people will do wrong as a group...it's that the people around them will. Claiming that it isn't right won't change the fact that it will happen, as history has repeatedly demonstrated.

That's the point.

Anonymous WaterBoy October 02, 2012 1:25 PM  

Err..that should be "easily".

Anonymous Steve October 02, 2012 4:49 PM  

1) Calling Jews individuals is like saying that all Jewish involvement is just random. Except that it is not.

2) Jewish achievements are minor and unimportant compared to the damage that they do. Google was a company built on luck where they were able to buy existing internet technology at fire-sale prices after the 2000 dot.com bust. That is lucky market timing...nothing more. Zuckerberg stole Facebook from his partners. Both companies are involved in essentially personal data theft while their fellow Jews in law and politics protect them from any legal challenges.

3) The large presence of Jews in the internet sphere is just as likely due to ethnic nepotism as anything else. Once on Jew gets into a position of power, he seeks other Jews to hire and dominate a field.

Really, we have an entire country on the verge of financial collapse because of a certain people in positions of power and that is somehow OK because they built a couple of toy companies?

Anonymous Anonymous October 14, 2012 8:14 PM  

Go ahead, kick out the Jews Steve. You can replace them with Hispanics just like the Germans replaced Europe's Jews with Muslims. See how well that turns out. And the polio vaccine (Salk and Sabin) was more important than Google but I guess the Jews stole that too. But I am sure you, Steve, will more than compensate for the loss in science, art, literature, music - all of which has been so negative. You will compose, write and invent surely. I am sure you have already. By the way, I am Jewish and my ancestors fought in both the Revolutionary War and Civil War, and we have the papers to prove it, straight back. So why is it again that you have the right to kick ME out? Did you spring from the earth of America?

Anonymous Matt Flannagan July 30, 2014 12:19 PM  

Yes, look how much England suffered after the Edict of Expulsion. The Victorian Era was a cultural wasteland!

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