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Friday, September 28, 2012

Kick back, have a beer

And let her get on with the housework.  You'll not only both be happier, but you're less likely to end up divorced:
In what appears to be a slap in the face for gender equality, the report found the divorce rate among couples who shared housework equally was around 50 per cent higher than among those where the woman did most of the work.
“What we’ve seen is that sharing equal responsibility for work in the home doesn’t necessarily contribute to contentment,” said Thomas Hansen, co-author of the study entitled “Equality in the Home”.
The lack of correlation between equality at home and quality of life was surprising, the researcher said.  “One would think that break-ups would occur more often in families with less equality at home, but our statistics show the opposite,” he said. The figures clearly show that “the more a man does in the home, the higher the divorce rate,” he went on.
The idea that the values held by members of equalitarian households are to blame sounds reasonable, but I think the real cause is a natural consequence of men and women having fundamentally different standards.  If you're going to end up doing it one way or the other, it's a lot more annoying to have to do it when you thought - however unreasonable the expectation - that someone was going to do it to your liking for you.  A woman who has no expectation of household equality is naturally going to be much happier than one who thought she was going to get it, but didn't.

The equalitarian households are simply more likely to discover this than the more traditional ones.  If the homemaking isn't left to the homemaker, it shouldn't be a tremendous surprise that things don't go well.  The household is hardly the only place where it is a terrible idea to assign the job to the individual who cares least about it.  The lesson, as always, is that if you care a lot about how well something is done, you should always do it yourself.

On the other hand, I suppose it is possible that men doing too much housework is simply a grotesque DLV and they're actively repelling their wives by turning themselves into disgusting socio-sexual gamma males.

I found the following to be an interesting conclusion of another study, which does not actually contradict the one cited above, as it is completely in line with the conclusions of a month-long experiment conducted by one of my friends.

The researchers expected to find that where men shouldered more of the burden, women’s happiness levels were higher. In fact they found that it was the men who were happier while their wives and girlfriends appeared to be largely unmoved. 

If it makes you happier, then do more housework.  If not, then don't.  Either way, don't think that it's going to score you any points or make her any happier, because you're probably not going to do it to her satisfaction and it's even possible that your well-intentioned efforts are making you sexually repulsive to her.

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154 Comments:

Anonymous Josh September 28, 2012 9:09 AM  

The idea of scoring points strikes me as a dangerous concept, unless you're intentionally making it into a joke.

If you think that doing housework for a month entitles you to poker night with the guys, you're a gamma.

Blogger Giraffe September 28, 2012 9:13 AM  

It is probably correlated but not causal. Those who don't care about traditional roles are less likely to care about staying in it for life.

Anonymous Roundtine September 28, 2012 9:19 AM  

Take out the garbage on your way to poker night.

If the man does housework, he needs to do it like a man. Set the toilet on fire to disinfect it. Or have high standards. Women don't like being told they are dirty slobs.

Anonymous Josh September 28, 2012 9:22 AM  

I don't know, giraffe.

Men tend to have lower expectations when it comes to keeping house stuff clean. If they're splitting the housework, it's easy to see that they're not doing as good of a job as the wife would be. This results in her either redoing it or the house staying less clean than she would like. Thus, either way she's pissed off.

Anonymous Clay September 28, 2012 9:25 AM  

Clearly, "make me a sammich", has far deeper implications than we've been giving it credit for.

Anonymous Hmmmm September 28, 2012 9:26 AM  

I cook most of the food, but that's because I care more about getting high-quality food in my belly sooner rather than later.

Blogger Giraffe September 28, 2012 9:31 AM  

If they're splitting the housework, it's easy to see that they're not doing as good of a job as the wife would be. This results in her either redoing it or the house staying less clean than she would like. Thus, either way she's pissed off.

No argument. But why is he doing women's work in the first place? :)

It is likely several elements. Yes he's doing it wrong, no, she doesn't find it attractive, and most likely if she expects him to split the work she's some kind of feminist with one foot out the door already.

Anonymous Viking September 28, 2012 9:33 AM  

Some women really like it when you do something for them but that is not necessarily house work. She might just like it if you simply take care of the yard because maybe that's what her dad did. Or if you build her a deck out back or something. But that is just some women. Different women respond to different things.

Another possibility is not that she really wants you to do house work but rather she might respond to simply being together and doing something together. So simply helping her prepare dinner by chopping vegetables may have less to do with helping to cook and more to do with just being close.

The trick is to figure out what she really wants because she doesn't know what that is herself.

Anonymous mjb September 28, 2012 9:39 AM  

I do some housework, but it is understood my wife will do the majority of it. I'm at work all day, she's at home handling the house, and homeschooling.

Right now our house is undergoing a remodeling (which I'm working on until late hours each night), so I have had to lower my standards a bit, not getting annoyed at the random bits of sheet rock dust, etc.

Blogger Giraffe September 28, 2012 9:40 AM  

Josh, make sure you explain to your future wife that for the sake of your future together you expect her to do all the housework and keep the sandwich supplies well stocked.

Anonymous Cryan Ryan September 28, 2012 9:40 AM  

I built the house. Installed the heating system. Plumbed it. Wired it. Installed the appliances. Keep the yard nice. Maintain stuff.


She serves me a tasty, attractive, nutritious dinner every night. Washes our clothes. Keeps the place clean.

I put my dirty clothes in the hamper.

Seems to work for us.

Anonymous Josh September 28, 2012 9:42 AM  

Clearly, "make me a sammich", has far deeper implications than we've been giving it credit for.

It's selfless, when you think of it. For the sake of our marriage, I will suffer through eating delicious sammiches...

It's for the greater good!

Anonymous Kyle In Japan September 28, 2012 9:44 AM  

I'm not sure I trust a potential wife to keep my house as clean as I do, because I'm a fastidious, borderline OCD neat freak.

Anonymous Josh September 28, 2012 9:44 AM  

Josh, make sure you explain to your future wife that for the sake of your future together you expect her to do all the housework and keep the sandwich supplies well stocked.

I'm going to get her one of those French maid outfits. I'm such a selfless guy.

Anonymous Josh September 28, 2012 9:46 AM  

I'm not sure I trust a potential wife to keep my house as clean as I do, because I'm a fastidious, borderline OCD neat freak.

Given that delightful basket of neuroses, that might not be something you'll have to worry about.

Blogger SarahsDaughter September 28, 2012 9:48 AM  

Even better for a marriage is when the homemaker becomes the foreman training up future homemakers. Mom goes to the gym, Mom and Dad go out to lunch...it's wonderful.

Blogger Nate September 28, 2012 9:50 AM  

As a dude that hangs out at home all day with the kids while the wife earns NFL money... its always suprised me to see that my friends that have stay-at-home wives actually do a lot more house work than I do.

These guys come home from 10 hour work days... and their wives hand over the kids... and expect them to get the dishes and laundry done. While the women retreat to the master bedroom for their "me time".

Understand... these women have like 2 kids... and those kids are in school all day. They don't do laundry.. they don't do dishes... and at night... they have to lock themselves in their bedrooms for hours because they are so stressed at everything that is put on them.

Whoever came up with this idiotic "me time" entitlement syndrome should be given some "me time"... naked... in Lake Baikal.


Anonymous Josh September 28, 2012 9:51 AM  

I never understood this whole mothers not teaching their daughters how to do things like cook, clean, and wear sundresses.

How do they expect them to get married off?

Anonymous Josh September 28, 2012 9:53 AM  

Understand... these women have like 2 kids... and those kids are in school all day. They don't do laundry.. they don't do dishes... and at night... they have to lock themselves in their bedrooms for hours because they are so stressed at everything that is put on them.

You don't understand how stressful gossiping on Facebook, playing farmville, shopping, going to Starbucks, and watching Oprah is.

Anonymous mjb September 28, 2012 9:54 AM  

I never understood this whole mothers not teaching their daughters how to do things like cook, clean, and wear sundresses.

How do they expect them to get married off?


They'll get married to some schlub and then divorced shortly after when their man decides he doesn't need to serve her hand and foot to be happy.

Anonymous Curlytop September 28, 2012 9:55 AM  

Giraffe September 28, 2012 9:40 AM
Josh, make sure you explain to your future wife that for the sake of your future together you expect her to do all the housework and keep the sandwich supplies well stocked.

This will be automatic if she's at home where she belongs....

And then, Nate astutely points out the bizarre phenomenon of the man allowing his woman who stays at home to NOT do her flippin' job. I've seen that type too, Nate. One couple we know, the wife stayed home and yet the husband STILL got up w the baby when they were infants. W.T.H? Talk about a gamma!

Anonymous Toby Temple September 28, 2012 9:57 AM  

Off Topic - woman killed her 5 newborn babies

See her rationalization for doing it. And she was only charged with manslaughter!

On topic:

Feminist will do everything to discredit such study.

Anonymous Curlytop September 28, 2012 10:00 AM  

SarahsDaughter September 28, 2012 9:48 AM
Even better for a marriage is when the homemaker becomes the foreman training up future homemakers. Mom goes to the gym, Mom and Dad go out to lunch...it's wonderful.

That DOES sound heavenly. :-)

Anonymous The other skeptic September 28, 2012 10:03 AM  

Well, unintended consequences are funny, but so is Steve Sailer's latest.


The Magner case stems from the city of St. Paul deciding to crack down on slumlords by enforcing already written laws and regulations in the housing code (e.g., fire safety). The slumlords got together and sued the city for racial discrimination because most of their tenants are black, and they argued that enforcing the laws would have disparate impact on blacks because that would raise the slumlords' costs, which they would pass on to their black tenants. (I don't know what race(s) the slumlords are.) So, that would be discrimination!


I suspect we will see more of these disparate impact cases, much more than TPTB intended.

We might also see more fires in that city, and with a racially diverse fire department, probably more deaths as well.

Still, since the dead can vote, it probably doesn't affect the progressives.

Blogger SarahsDaughter September 28, 2012 10:04 AM  

"Clearly, "make me a sammich", has far deeper implications than we've been giving it credit for." - Clay

Oh, yes.

Our oldest daughter is the chief sammich maker now. I'm still teaching her the fine details. A sammich is not just two slices of bread with whatever thrown in the middle. It's brochen with the perfect amount of mayo, swiss, deli ham, roast beef, and a couple slices of pepperoni topped with a skewer of Greek olives. It is served with a side of vinegar and sea salt chips, an icy cold glass of milk and a Ghirardelli chocolate.

Anonymous Stingray September 28, 2012 10:07 AM  

Clearly, "make me a sammich", has far deeper implications than we've been giving it credit for.

Yes, it certainly is. While you can't see it here, this is exactly why my avatar is a sammich.

Anonymous Curlytop September 28, 2012 10:11 AM  

Sarah'sDaughter:

Heh, the Sous Chef Sammich Maker? ;-)

Anonymous Toby Temple September 28, 2012 10:13 AM  

You westerners are really fond with sandwiches...

Anonymous Toby Temple September 28, 2012 10:15 AM  

correction - change "with" to "of"..

Blogger SarahsDaughter September 28, 2012 10:18 AM  

Curlytop, it gets even better than that. In a few months our oldest will have their license. Instruction on how to select food at the grocery store is underway. And the understanding already is: sure you can have the truck, here's my list. :)

Anonymous Stickwick September 28, 2012 10:19 AM  

I do ALL of the housework, and I prefer it that way. It doesn't warm my heart to see my husband doing dishes or vacuuming unless I'm too ill to do those things. It does, however, warm my heart to see him fixing something broken and showing me the tactical positions from which to use the shotgun if there's an intruder when he's gone.

A sammich is not just two slices of bread with whatever thrown in the middle. It's brochen with the perfect amount of mayo, swiss, deli ham, roast beef, and a couple slices of pepperoni topped with a skewer of Greek olives. It is served with a side of vinegar and sea salt chips, an icy cold glass of milk and a Ghirardelli chocolate.

Cue Homer drool ... good grief, that sounds good.

Anonymous Vitus_Bering September 28, 2012 10:21 AM  

Sometimes, when the wife's out shopping with the kids, I'll put on Lynyrd Skynyrd "Pronounced" album really loud, strip down to my underwear, and clean the kitchen. Makes me feel good as a man.

Anonymous Josh September 28, 2012 10:30 AM  

I know what I'm getting for lunch...

Anonymous JartStar September 28, 2012 10:32 AM  

She does most of the work inside and I do most of the work outside. We each help each other on big jobs. Works well for us.

If she ever complains I offer her the opportunity to mow while I do laundry and the complaints end until the next need of a reminder.

Anonymous Curlytop September 28, 2012 10:37 AM  

SarahsDaughter September 28, 2012 10:18 AM
Curlytop, it gets even better than that. In a few months our oldest will have their license. Instruction on how to select food at the grocery store is underway. And the understanding already is: sure you can have the truck, here's my list. :)

Ha! That was exactly the method employed in my house growing up as well as hubby's, so we are right there with ya! Regardless of gender, knowing food costs and proper selection is important.

I find the trick to a good sammich is how you apply the mayo, mustard, or in our house, butter. A favorite of Hubby's is sometimes so simple it's ridiculous! Lightly toasted Ciabatta with a nice thin layer of Plugara butter and Roast beef. I'll add the Salt & cracked Pepper Kettle Chips and ice water. That's what he wants. On the other hand, I'll certainly swing your way for that delicious lunch ensemble! I'm with Stickwick on your sammich menu. YUM! :-)

Anonymous Jimmy September 28, 2012 10:39 AM  

I consider my house cleaning skills to be much better than her. I know what chemicals to use and how to apply them. I am completely thorough. I am stronger to move the furniture and stove to clean under them. Then it become an issue of giving a inch and taking a mile. She is never satisfied regardless.

Women are like petulant children. They want what they won't do. They take advantage of the prevailing view that men should contribute more household chores. It is time to knock this meme before it claims another relationship.

Anonymous Other Josh September 28, 2012 10:40 AM  

Women don't want a house maid. They want a man, dammit!

My wife and I are blessed in that we don't need her to work. She's a stay-at-home mom. She understands that taking care of our home is her job. It works out very, very well.

My friends joke around that we have such a "1950's marriage", but it's funny how our marriage seems to be much happier than my friends' marriages.

Anonymous Daniel September 28, 2012 10:41 AM  

She can't make me a sammich - I make the best anyone ever has. She simply can't hope to meet my standards.

I'd be as disappointed in her sammich as she would be if I ever did the laundry, but that may be because the one time I did it, I used a clothesline and a powerwasher and ended up blasting a hole through a bedsheet.

Sarah's Daughter - that's a good start, but you forgot the cracked pepper and olive oil, the four-sides buttering of the bread, and the layered steam grilling.

And I have served to the most efette and effeminate wine-swilling dandy I know my home raised, center-cut, hand grilled bacon, butter lettuce, egg-over easy, cracked pepper and tomato and swiss on home baked peasant loaf, with salt and a Guinness, and he suddenly got a hankering for women...

So please, love muffin, straighten up about the house if you must, but leave the sammiches to me.

For historical purposes: the tallest sandwich I ever made without toppling or toothpick was 8-1/4 inches, pre-crushed. The key refinement was thin bread, a cubic quarter foot of meat, and a superstructure of extra wavy lettuce at the top, with four crinkle-cut pickles at top and bottom for friction.

Anonymous ODG September 28, 2012 10:42 AM  

Threads like this discourage the heck out of me.

Not because they're wrong.

Because they're right.

Anonymous Northern Observer September 28, 2012 10:42 AM  

It would be interesting to see them normalize it for how much the wife works.

If the husband is doing a large share of the housework because his wife works as many hours outside the home as he does, then there would be other factors contributing to the divorce. (less respect than the traditional husband as the breadwinner model for one)

I've never met a husband who works, with a stay at home wife, who does a large share, much less a majority, of the housework (at least as far as I know). Where are these guys and why hasn't someone slapped them upside the head?

Now, if you are a stay at home dad, and your wife brings home the money, then get to work bitch, the house is a mess.

Anonymous Daniel September 28, 2012 10:45 AM  

Oh, she reminded me of an important reason for the laundry ban - I not only ripped the sheet, but I caught the lawn on fire.

Blogger SarahsDaughter September 28, 2012 10:48 AM  

Daniel, I grovel at your feet...

Anonymous Josh September 28, 2012 10:49 AM  

Take brisket....put it in the slow cooker for six to eight hours...get some crusty Italian bread...place brisket on bread...top with Kerry gold dubliner cheese...au jus...

Epic.

Anonymous Mr. Nightstick September 28, 2012 10:52 AM  

The only reason I do any housework is to improve my wife's availability for other activities.

Blogger SarahsDaughter September 28, 2012 10:54 AM  

"I caught the lawn on fire."

Please, Tim the Tool Man Taylor, walk away from that jet fueled power washer, the Maytag does a fine job.

Anonymous Curlytop September 28, 2012 10:55 AM  

Oh Daniel, that's hilarious!!!

Admittedly, I have to make sure my sammich making skills are up to par, because I'm married to a similar creature as far as the food goes. I tell people all the time that I fell arse backwards into this blessing and have NO intention of squandering it. How do I compete with a professionally trained chef? Soooo, I make darn sure he's got a clean castle/clothes, trim wife, educated children, and his favorite drink served to him each night. If they kids aren't around, those drinks are served in the aforementioned maid's ensemble. Service w a smile! :-)

Anonymous mjb September 28, 2012 10:56 AM  

Please, Tim the Tool Man Taylor, walk away from that jet fueled power washer, the Maytag does a fine job.

I admit it, I really loved that show back in the day.

Blogger Nate September 28, 2012 10:58 AM  

"Now, if you are a stay at home dad, and your wife brings home the money, then get to work bitch, the house is a mess."

bzzt.

Who the bitch is has nothing to do with who works for the money. Consider the pimp and his girl. Who does all the work? Right.

The stay-at-home-dad has to remember... that he is NOT a stay-at-home-mom. He's the father. He is the head of the household. His job is still first and foremost to run the family. Look at the old testament fathers. They managed the family while the women did all manner of things to bring in food and money. The fathers mostly worked in government and in the church.

That is not to say that the traditional set up is wrong.. or even not optimal.

What I'm saying is... authority is not derived from income.

Anonymous Toby Temple September 28, 2012 11:02 AM  

Daniel. How bad are you when it comes to machines?

Anonymous E. PERLINE September 28, 2012 11:11 AM  

When you guys retire you will soon learn how to operate. You must continue maintaining the home (homes tend to fall apart when they're not maintained)
but even if she's not as neat as you, let her do the housework. And though she's not avant garde, let her do the decorating.

Just be at hand to reach for things or to replace filters when needed. Let everything roll off your back. Never let a thing she says bother you. Realize she is really not asking for a practical solution to anything. When she complains that she has to wash 10 plates for dinner, I suggest that we use paper plates. I know my solution will be ignored.

The only thing I watch is overspending. No matter what your income, that must be controlled. I also take my own breakfast and lunch. I never complain when she wants to go to bingo at night. I just stay home enjoying the solitude. During the day "I work on a small enterprize, or even write a novel." Staying out of the way yet being on call is the secret of happiness.

Anonymous Curlytop September 28, 2012 11:15 AM  

Nate: "What I'm saying is... authority is not derived from income. "

And this point highlights something I was alluding to earlier. The issue of women's unhappiness isn't about the silly chores, it's that the proper authority is missing in their homes. The chores "issue" is simply evidence of the problem. Which is why, if men start doing the chores, it doesn't translate into happiness from the female.

Anonymous Stingray September 28, 2012 11:15 AM  

I make darn sure he's got a clean castle/clothes, trim wife, educated children, and his favorite drink served to him each night. If they kids aren't around, those drinks are served in the aforementioned maid's ensemble. Service w a smile!

But, but, but you are being subverted!! How can you allow that to happen?! You are not FREE!!!!!!!!!!!!! Empowerment for Curlytop now! How can you possibly be happy with a strong husband who loves you, provides you with a good home, leadership, protection, and love? How dare you do your fair share?

I'm sorry. I probably shouldn't post while tired. I cannot wrap my head around those who think you simply must be miserable with your beautiful life.

Anonymous George September 28, 2012 11:18 AM  

VD Said:

"If it makes you happier, then do more housework. If not, then don't. Either way, don't think that it's going to score you any points or make her any happier, because you're probably not going to do it to her satisfaction and it's even possible that your well-intentioned efforts are making you sexually repulsive to her."

My goodness. What a dumb analysis.

Where household chores are shared equally it's highly likely due to there not being a child in the house.

And lo and behold, divorce rates among childless couples are....wait for it....50% higher than for marriages with children.

You should go back to talking about how it's ok to kill children if God tells you to. At least in that subject matter you are on firm ground.

Anonymous stg58 September 28, 2012 11:29 AM  

I'm not sure I trust a potential wife to keep my house as clean as I do, because I'm a fastidious, borderline OCD neat freak.

Which is why you are Kyle in "Japan" instead of Bangladesh.

Anonymous FUBAR NATION (Ben) September 28, 2012 11:31 AM  

George can you back up your claims?

Anonymous Curlytop September 28, 2012 11:31 AM  

LOL! Oh Stingray, I hope you get rest.:-) I'm probably a lost cause anyway since I revel in my own "prison" and this blog enables me to wallow in it to boot!

Basically, those who are miserable, simply want others to be. It's that twisted and simple. And I observed that those who harped on "equality" were almost always the most negative people to be around. Talk about Debbie Downers! I contrasted that with women I saw who were in the home doing what they were supposed to do. These women were content. It really didn't seem to be rocket science to me...hmmm, if you want to be happy, do what happy people do. Novel concept, huh?



Anonymous Norther Observer September 28, 2012 11:40 AM  

Nate:That is not to say that the traditional set up is wrong.. or even not optimal.

What I'm saying is... authority is not derived from income. "


Absolutely. A guy could stay at home with the kids, while his wife earns, and still be The Man.

Of course, he could also put on a french maid's outfit and let his wife mount him with a strap-on every Friday night, and still be The Man.

It's just not that common.

"The fathers mostly worked in government and in the church." - citation needed

Anonymous DonReynolds September 28, 2012 11:48 AM  

It comes as no surprise that a painting done by two different artists has a slight chance of being fun but more likely the end result will be a painting that neither artist cares much for....assuming that it is actually finished without one smashing it over the head of the other. In the same way, a home is a piece of art and the nesting urge is much stronger for the female variety. (No, I have no idea how lesbians manage it.) Good advice would be to confine the male efforts to the yard, tool room, garage, garden shed, but not including the flower beds, and whatever repair jobs that she happens to notice. By the same token.....never ever let her "organize" the work tools or garage area. (Hint: too much of it ends up in the trash can.)

Anonymous stg58 September 28, 2012 11:51 AM  

My wife tells me she wants me to do more housework. I tell her that is her job, along with the kids. Her reply is that my job ends at 5 or 6, but her job never ends because the kids are always around. I do the dishes occasionally, and my own laundry, but that is it. I do my own laundry because she can't fold it to my standards. Every day when I come home, the house never seems to get cleaner.

Anonymous Daniel September 28, 2012 11:56 AM  

Toby TempleDaniel. How bad are you when it comes to machines?

I'm actually pretty good, except for the time I got the leg of my jeans caught on the hay bale conveyor on the elevator, but who hasn't done that?

The fire was a result of me blasting over the fire well that I was burning some stuff in as I tried to clean the sheets. It only burned about a 5 foot radius, so it wasn't exactly a major conflagration (didn't make it to the porch, house or fenceline), and if I had noticed it sooner I could have hosed it down before it even started. Since it was mid-Autumn, the burn served to revitalize that patch of lawn come spring, so the only bad result from that method of laundering was that some of the laundry got ripped up and all of it smelled like smoke. I was multi-tasking.

Anonymous Stingray September 28, 2012 11:59 AM  

Her reply is that my job ends at 5 or 6, but her job never ends because the kids are always around.

In my tiredest moments, when I am not thinking clearly, this thought will run through my head and then I remember that while I am always with the kids we are at the pool (a membership provided by my husband), we are at the botanical garden (a membership provided by my husband), the kids are outside with their friends and I am in the house alone (while my husband is working his ass off), we are at the gym; my kids in the gym's child care center while I'm working out (guess what hubby's doing?). I could go on, but you get my point. If if your kids are little and they are still mostly hands on, it's not forever.

On the couple of occasions where I was dumb enough to bring this up to my husband his reply was always something sarcastic like, "So, how was your workout at the gym today? Nice membership isn't it?" with a dark look in his eye. I don't often forget this anymore.

Blogger SarahsDaughter September 28, 2012 12:05 PM  

stg58, unfortunately your wife is confusing the tool/vehicle you use to complete an aspect of your job (provision) with what your job/role is with regards to your family. Similarly she (hopefully) uses a broom or a vacuum to complete one aspect of her job. Your job doesn't have a start or end time, neither does hers.

Anonymous stg58 September 28, 2012 12:11 PM  

Sarahsdaughter and Stickwick,

She is too tired to do any of this, because she doesn't want to go to sleep. She has always been a night owl, but now that she has kids, she still wants to stay up until 0045 watching tv. She says it calms her down. Then she goes to bed, and says she is tired the next day. I tell her to turn off the tv, but she doesn't want to. Exhaustion manifests itself in many ways. I am much better at being tired than she is, due to my military experience.

Due to the size of our house, the youngest son sleeps in a crib in our room. He wakes up occasionally. He has a bullhorn for lungs. That keeps her up too. I tell her that if he is going to wake up at 0200 for a bottle, she should go to bed earlier so she can sleep for 3 of 4 hours before he wakes up. Nope. I am scratching my head on the right thing to do to get her to realize she needs to sleep, and not watch tv at night.

Blogger IM2L844 September 28, 2012 12:12 PM  

Women's appreciation levels drop very quickly once a "special" behavior starts to become a routine. I would even go so far as to say they begin to resent it and will sometimes come to view it as being smothered or stifled by a less than manly man.

I don't know about all this game stuff, but I made it very clear to my wife, from the very beginning, that my philosophy was that I was going to do whatever I wanted to do. Full stop! Complaining isn't an option. I don't do it and I refuse listen to it.She could accept that or be on her way. If she wanted something done NOW, she would have to do it herself or wait until I decided I wanted to do it. This caused a lot of friction, at first. She mowed the yard and took out the trash a lot during that time.

Because the idea that all men are pigs, liars and cheaters had been so ingrained in her, it took a couple of years before she realized that the things I actually wanted to do were almost always directly in her best interest. Once she finally understood that I didn't want to cheat on her, regardless of the opportunities, and that I didn't NEED her to take care of me, she finally got the hang of it.

Now, her insane jealousy is all but gone and she takes good care of me because that's what she wants to do. When she asks me to do something it's always prefaced with something like, "When you have the time..." or "If you get the chance..." and she never brings it up again (unless it's been days or weeks and I obviously forgot all about it). If I ask her to bring me something to drink or make me something to eat, which is actually pretty rare, she doesn't skip a beat in asking me for details of how I want it done.

It's now been 17 years of reasonably smooth marital sailing. I don't think this strategy would work very well for a stupid and/or dishonest lazy slob with a weak character.

Blogger Nate September 28, 2012 12:13 PM  

""The fathers mostly worked in government and in the church." - citation needed"

Sure... start with Proverbs.. the description of good wives.

Blogger Nate September 28, 2012 12:16 PM  

"Absolutely. A guy could stay at home with the kids, while his wife earns, and still be The Man.

Of course, he could also put on a french maid's outfit and let his wife mount him with a strap-on every Friday night, and still be The Man.

It's just not that common. "

Consider the converse. The dad makes all the money... comes home to the lazy stay at home mom... who makes every decision. He follows her orders without question out of fear of her emotional outbursts.

Now... who runs the house? and who makes the money?

I think we both know that the second scenario is not uncommon at all. Especially if you include women who work.. but only work part time and make much less money... yet still clearly rule the family.

That is my point. Money is not the source of authority.

Blogger Nate September 28, 2012 12:17 PM  

I don't agree with George's specific claims... but I do agree with him... that this is likely an effect that is totally unrelated to actual housework. Its a stat that is skewed. For example... in house holds where the men don't do as much... you are more likely to have stay-at-home moms... who we already know are less likely to divorce than working girl moms.

Blogger Kevan P. Chandler September 28, 2012 12:19 PM  

Cryan Ryan seems to have the right idea all around.

Also, I'd have to say a lot of these issues of gender roles in a relationship derive (or at least fester) from a lack of communication. If the wife needs help with a chore, just ask. If the husband is trying to help but failing, tell him he sucks at it and he'll go do what he's good at. The man has skills and the woman has skills, and occasionally they cross over in places, but not as often as our current society claims.

Anonymous Anonymous September 28, 2012 12:20 PM  

This is funny.

Just last night my wife, I and her best friend were all enjoying a cool evening in our sunroom sipping on some wine when the conversation predictably turned into the tyranny of feminism. Understand that neither my wife nor her friend are bothered with feminist issues as both their looks, culture and intellects relieve them of such banal matters.

But what we found most amusing was my constant irritation with the feminists' perpetual use of the description "full-time mom" usually attached to a blathering complaint about how hard it is to be a woman and how much work they have to do at home. Truly, there is no plastic limit in the feminist lexicon or their willingness to accept the most ludicrous ideas, which is yet another example of why the "movement" is ultimately doomed to failure.

Blogger Nate September 28, 2012 12:22 PM  

"And this point highlights something I was alluding to earlier. The issue of women's unhappiness isn't about the silly chores, it's that the proper authority is missing in their homes. The chores "issue" is simply evidence of the problem. Which is why, if men start doing the chores, it doesn't translate into happiness from the female."

ding ding ding.

Anonymous George September 28, 2012 12:25 PM  

Nate:

The question is this: How much more likely are there to be children in a home where the mother does not work? I don't have stats on this, but I think we can agree it's much more likely. The 50% higher divorce rate for childless couples is well established. I know a number of childless couples. I don't know any where the wife stays at home, with the exception of one that manages her sports agency from her home (she helps me bet on football and basketball games when I'm in the mood with good inside info).

But I do know many divorced folks that did not have children....Far more in fact than the divorced couples that do have children.

VD's analysis is way off base....again.

Anonymous Curlytop September 28, 2012 12:26 PM  

stg58, "I am scratching my head on the right thing to do to get her to realize she needs to sleep, and not watch tv at night."

How about ditching the tv until she modifies her routine?



Anonymous VD September 28, 2012 12:26 PM  

My wife tells me she wants me to do more housework. I tell her that is her job, along with the kids. Her reply is that my job ends at 5 or 6, but her job never ends because the kids are always around.

Offer to trade places, in all seriousness. She goes to work, she supports the family, you stay home and do all the things that you expect of her. If she isn't willing to do that, tell her to shut her trap and do her job.

Anonymous Anonymous September 28, 2012 12:31 PM  

Nate: "The dad makes all the money... comes home to the lazy stay at home mom... who makes every decision. He follows her orders without question out of fear of her emotional outbursts."

I often wonder why some otherwise confident men whom I consider friends collapse at the thought challenging this kind of despotism in their house. Christian charity demands that it’s actually fear of the police state that renders them impotent, or rather they're so convinced that any assertion of authority will be met with an unparalleled reaction thus ruining in one restraining order what took years to build. But then again, I'm not that charitable in these situations.

Anonymous Stingray September 28, 2012 12:32 PM  

stg58,

Zero help with her usual chores and zero sympathy. Make it clear, too. She needs more sleep. If she's not going to take care of that it's on her and she deserves and needs no sympathy or help from you. She complains to you about being tired? Make sure she knows you won't hear of it and why. No need to be rude or angry about it, either. Say it plainly and clearly in a matter of fact tone of voice. She groans when the baby wakes in the middle of the night because she's so tired? Just shrug your shoulders and role back over. It's really not your responsibility to make sure she's not too tired to get through her day.

Anonymous stg58 September 28, 2012 12:32 PM  

I have told her that before. She is unwilling to do that, so I have told her to do her job. She is still unwilling to do her job. She give me lip service respect, but not much more.

Anonymous stg58 September 28, 2012 12:34 PM  

I already do all of this. Doesn't make any difference. She is stubborn as a mule. Probably the most stubborn woman in the whole world. Vox, she commented here a while ago under the name DonnaReed. She thinks she is a 1950's housewife, but doesn't actually do anything like an actual 1950's housewife did.

Blogger SarahsDaughter September 28, 2012 12:43 PM  

stg58, I'm sure with your military experience, you are able to fall asleep when ever you need to and capitalize on every opportunity. I had to learn this technique when the kids were little. When they napped, I napped. When they were awake and playing I cooked and cleaned.
It's over in a blink. If you read any of my above comments, you'll see I live the life of Riley now. She should be encouraged that the exhaustion and time consuming nature of mothering small children comes to an end and if done right, what you have left is a well oiled machine and a very tranquil lifestyle. Though, to be completely honest, the work of mother in mentoring mode (the teenage years) presents some challenges that at times I miss toddlers and diapers. But I am fully rested and obviously have more free time than I know what to do with.*

*Stickwick, could you remind me again what your workout regimen is. I've gotten a little too excited about the results I was seeing and made the rookie mistake that more time at the gym would equal more results. I have terrible exertion headaches going on. To not go off topic here, would you be willing to email me at redlegben at yahoo?

Anonymous Northern Observer September 28, 2012 12:44 PM  

stg58:

You both need to remember that the infant years are only temporary.

The sleep thing is rough on most moms. I suspect that even 1950's moms were tired all the time, and their houses were a mess... when they had infants at home.

Once the infant phase is over, and the kids are sleeping 9 - 11 hours a night straight through, you'll both be better rested.

Anonymous Daniel September 28, 2012 12:45 PM  

stg58 - Offer to help your wife and bring in a part-time house-keeper to work between 4-8 pm. Do the interviewing yourself and ensure the employee that you, not the wife, have firing rights.

Pick a cute and young one.

Anonymous cult of eeek-wail-tee September 28, 2012 12:48 PM  

George sez:

"My goodness. What a dumb analysis.

Where household chores are shared equally it's highly likely due to there not being a child in the house. "

Correlation not causation, check-mate you intolerant bigot. And look up ceteris paribus some time. Statistical adjustments weren't invented yesterday.

Anonymous Curlytop September 28, 2012 12:48 PM  

stg58,
You have some really good advise here. Bottom line: make life uncomfortable for her. It's a similar tactic I employ with our children when they demonstrate spoiled behavior.

Anonymous Northern Observer September 28, 2012 12:50 PM  

Daniel: "Pick a cute and young one."

I've seen this done, but it was for a nanny/maid. Young, hot and poor... and in the house all of the time.

It did not end well.

Anonymous Curlytop September 28, 2012 12:50 PM  

Daniel September 28, 2012 12:45 PM
stg58 - Offer to help your wife and bring in a part-time house-keeper to work between 4-8 pm. Do the interviewing yourself and ensure the employee that you, not the wife, have firing rights.

Pick a cute and young one.


Exactly! And require the uniform!!! ;-)

Blogger SarahsDaughter September 28, 2012 12:52 PM  

"Offer to trade places, in all seriousness. She goes to work, she supports the family, you stay home and do all the things that you expect of her. If she isn't willing to do that, tell her to shut her trap and do her job." - VD

Include in that that she must continue to provide all the money even after the kids are self sufficient, cleaning the house, and cooking some meals.

The older ladies read this and are saying shhh, SD, don't let them know the truth of how hard life is as a SAHM of teenagers who have been raised right.

Anonymous Anonymous September 28, 2012 12:54 PM  

VD: "Offer to trade places, in all seriousness. She goes to work, she supports the family, you stay home and do all the things that you expect of her. If she isn't willing to do that, tell her to shut her trap and do her job."

Were you over last night? Oddly enough, I made a similar comment at the dinner table to what was really just a playful jest. With a chuckle she acknowledged that my skill set could easily adapt to hers as I did so before we met. Hers, well, maybe not so much. I in turn was willing to admit this was correct.

You know, I got turned on to a sitcom called Rules of Engagement a few days ago because I enjoy Patrick Warburton’s comic delivery of disdain for all things uberfem. What’s interesting is that the last episode we watched paralleled this very topic. The wife met a couple with the “perfect” husband who was all cheese, wine and kisses but also liked sports. Naturally, the husband only heard “sports”. But the gist was this guy turns out to be a slimy hypocrite who spends his free time living in strip joints, cheating on his wife and boozing it up. Of course, the wife thought her husband was callous and uncultured when compared with this “perfect” husband because he didn’t constantly acknowledge her every thought and wish if he acknowledged her at all. The irony, of course, is that in the end after discovering he’s a fraud she had to admit that her actual real man was far superior to the female’s illusion of the real man. And I think, much to her dismay, it only made her want her husband more.

Anonymous scoobius dubious September 28, 2012 12:55 PM  

My parents had the traditional old-fashioned housework split, basically, wife does everything having to do with food and household cleanliness, husband does everything having to do with plumbing, electricity, and extremely heavy or pointy things.

Every once in a blue moon, if my mother was a little ill, my father would take over the housework for a day or two and it was a vision to behold. He was a Navy veteran, and he brought a kind of ruthless, lightning military efficiency to even the daintiest tasks. Imagine Douglas MacArthur cleaning the butter dish. If you watched him vaccuuming the living room carpet, you'd swear he was actually building a nuclear submarine. He could have made us kids do half this stuff, but I think he did it himself anyway as a show of affection. Although he did make me help him clean up the kitchen a few times, I think just to show me how a man approaches the assignment, and it was impossible to keep up with him.

This whole issue is one of those illustrations of how it's not in the nature of life to be fair. Granted that the most atomic-powered macho men can get away with practically any sort of girly stuff without losing their mojo, but even a reasonably masculine, non-pussified man can risk losing face in his woman's eyes, if he ventures into the duties of the femo-sphere incautiously. Women on the other hand can get away with all kinds of manly stuff without sacrificing their femininity -- think how cute a gal looks driving a tractor, say, or wearing an auto-mechanic's work shirt with just the right little dab of axle grease on her cheek.

Just another way that the sexes simply aren't symmetrical like that. Whaddaya gonna do.

Anonymous DrTorch September 28, 2012 12:57 PM  

Women on the other hand can get away with all kinds of manly stuff without sacrificing their femininity -- think how cute a gal looks driving a tractor, say, or wearing an auto-mechanic's work shirt with just the right little dab of axle grease on her cheek.

But they haven't actually done anything but pose. Have them do (or try) to do the job, and the charm quickly evaporates.

Blogger Spacebunny September 28, 2012 1:00 PM  

But they haven't actually done anything but pose. Have them do (or try) to do the job, and the charm quickly evaporates.

DrTorch talking out of his ass again. How very. I do the vast majority of the repair jobs around the house and I've done plenty of tractor driving and oil changing in my day.

Blogger Spacebunny September 28, 2012 1:00 PM  

Anon - pick a name or your comments will be deleted.

Anonymous Anonymous September 28, 2012 1:04 PM  

scoobius: "Every once in a blue moon, if my mother was a little ill, my father would take over the housework for a day or two and it was a vision to behold. He was a Navy veteran, and he brought a kind of ruthless, lightning military efficiency to even the daintiest tasks. Imagine Douglas MacArthur cleaning the butter dish. If you watched him vaccuuming the living room carpet, you'd swear he was actually building a nuclear submarine. He could have made us kids do half this stuff, but I think he did it himself anyway as a show of affection. Although he did make me help him clean up the kitchen a few times, I think just to show me how a man approaches the assignment, and it was impossible to keep up with him."

HAHAHAHAhahahahahaha. I don't think I could have written a more accurate example of my childhood.

Anonymous Toby Temple September 28, 2012 1:26 PM  

I'm actually pretty good, except for the time I got the leg of my jeans caught on the hay bale conveyor on the elevator, but who hasn't done that?

The fire was a result of me blasting over the fire well that I was burning some stuff in as I tried to clean the sheets. It only burned about a 5 foot radius, so it wasn't exactly a major conflagration (didn't make it to the porch, house or fenceline), and if I had noticed it sooner I could have hosed it down before it even started. Since it was mid-Autumn, the burn served to revitalize that patch of lawn come spring, so the only bad result from that method of laundering was that some of the laundry got ripped up and all of it smelled like smoke. I was multi-tasking.


Never multitask when it comes to these machines. NEVER.

Anonymous ODG September 28, 2012 1:29 PM  

"DrTorch talking out of his ass again. How very. I do the vast majority of the repair jobs around the house and I've done plenty of tractor driving and oil changing in my day. "

NAWALT!!!

:) Had to be done.

Anonymous stg58 September 28, 2012 2:19 PM  

I am starting my new job Monday, upper level oil & gas sales management, a promotion from being the independent outside guy. I will have the money necessary to get someone to come in to the house 1 or 2 days a week and help her with the cleaning. The money for this new job doubles my salary in its entirety, so there will also be no more complaints about not being able to afford something. She will have nothing to complain about.

I am also about to play skeet cable box. I asked her last night to turn off the tv, and she refused. IT GO BYE BYE VERY SOON.

Anonymous ODG September 28, 2012 2:23 PM  

stg88,
My wife is like yours in some ways. "Life is a heavy burden", domestically challenged, yet refuses common sense things that have the potential to greatly increase her (and our) happiness.

I can empathize.

Anonymous Stickwick September 28, 2012 2:24 PM  

Stickwick, could you remind me again what your workout regimen is. I've gotten a little too excited about the results I was seeing and made the rookie mistake that more time at the gym would equal more results. I have terrible exertion headaches going on. To not go off topic here, would you be willing to email me at redlegben at yahoo?

This probably isn't too far OT, since proper self-care makes a wife much more efficient. Seriously, guys, make your women work out -- not only will they have more energy for the housework, but they will feel more amorous.

stg58: If you can get your wife out the door for an hour a day and make her exercise, it will help her have energy during the day and feel naturally sleepy at night. Just make sure the workout doesn't happen too late at night, or she will have an even harder time sleeping. Also, I'd cut the cable. If she can't control her TV watching, no TV in the house.

Anyway, the exercise plan. I used to do high-intensity, long-duration, and got headaches that lasted for days and always felt cranky and depressed. Now I do more of a primal workout regimen, which works much better:

- Low-intensity cardio 5 days a week. When it's too hot outside, I do a nice-n-easy 30-40 minutes on the elliptical machine twice a day; when it's nice out, I stroll around the neighborhood for the same duration twice a day. The key is to not power-walk or jog, but to take a nice leisurely amble.

- Weight training twice a week for 20-30 minutes, and stick to higher weights with lower reps. I stick to large muscle groups. Day 1: bench, seated row, squats, abs; Day 2: military press, pull downs, deadlift, abs. If you have more time, you can spread this over three days instead of two.

- Once a week do interval training. Either running at a track or on a cardio machine. I do 6-7 sets of 60-second sprint followed by 3-minute walk.

No headaches, no moodiness. This gave me SO much energy, I feel perpetually hot for my husband, and I sleep much better at night.

Anonymous stg58 September 28, 2012 2:28 PM  

She Does exercise. She is in great shape. 5'9", 145 lbs.

Anonymous Stickwick September 28, 2012 2:29 PM  

I am also about to play skeet cable box. I asked her last night to turn off the tv, and she refused. IT GO BYE BYE VERY SOON.

Heh, I see you're way ahead of me. Have someone video you blasting the thing and show it to her when you get home. Seriously.

Anonymous Sojourner September 28, 2012 2:30 PM  

Put this on my Facebook, men hit "Like" women end up telling me why, in their personal experience, it's wrong.

Somebody find me a study where men accept fact, women accept how they feel.

Anonymous stg58 September 28, 2012 2:31 PM  

Like the guy who plugged his daughter's iphone, then sat down and explained why he did it? Yeah..

Anonymous Stickwick September 28, 2012 2:31 PM  

She Does exercise. She is in great shape. 5'9", 145 lbs.

Wow. Well, besides turfing the cable, it sounds like VD has the best advice.

Anonymous Stickwick September 28, 2012 2:32 PM  

Like the guy who plugged his daughter's iphone, then sat down and explained why he did it? Yeah..

Exactly. That was brilliant.

Anonymous ODG September 28, 2012 2:33 PM  

Stickwick says: "Seriously, guys, make your women work out -- "

So if your husband makes you do something you don't want to do, how do you respond?

Half snark, half serious question.

Anonymous Stingray September 28, 2012 2:39 PM  

ODG,

If a reasonable request? My response is "OK", though I will sometimes as why. Not to be a pain in the ass, but so I can fully understand his reason behind it. I make sure I ask this question nicely.

Hope you don't mind another woman giving an answer.

Anonymous Northern Observer September 28, 2012 2:39 PM  

stg58: is she otherwise a lazy person? Because if she isn't, then I'm telling you, it's probably just sleep deprivation. Unless the extra help allows her to get more sleep, then it probably won't help things much.

it might even hurt, since she might expect it even after the kids are older and she's sleeping better.

Plus, if she's a night owl then if the extra help allows her to nap, it could wreck her sleep schedule even more.

Anonymous Porky? September 28, 2012 2:40 PM  

I thought beer was for "peasants".

Anonymous stg58 September 28, 2012 2:45 PM  

This is all due to sleep deprivation. Getting her off the tv and into bed is the linchpin to all of this. She is not a lazy person. She likes to put the kids down for a nap in the afternoon, then take one herself. Whenever she complains to me about how she doesn't get her nap, I ask her how many naps I get, and that I seem to be able to function fine without ever taking naps. She says the difference is I can sleep. Then I say exactly! "Follow my example, and thinly veiled threats." She says this is solely due to my time in the USMC.

Blogger JDC September 28, 2012 2:48 PM  

If I could just remember to close cupboard doors and not wear my shoes in the house, everything would be domestic utopian bliss.

Anonymous Stingray September 28, 2012 2:49 PM  

She says this is solely due to my time in the USMC.

Hamsters are very powerful creatures and I do not say thing to pick on your wife. Heh, I've been there.

Blogger Spacebunny September 28, 2012 2:50 PM  

NAWALT!!!

:) Had to be done.


No, it really didn't. I grew up in farm country, almost every girl I knew drove a tractor, and could change their own oil/tiree, etc. It's not posing as DrT attempts to claim, it's a way of life for them. Whether they actually enjoy it or not would be dependent on the individual of course.

Anonymous Stingray September 28, 2012 2:55 PM  

*this*

Anonymous Josh September 28, 2012 2:59 PM  

She thinks my tractor's sexy...

Anonymous Stickwick September 28, 2012 3:03 PM  

So if your husband makes you do something you don't want to do, how do you respond?

I guess every man has to interpret "make her do it" his own way. My husband doesn't usually make me do anything per se, but there is a sense that if I don't do the things that need to be done -- including taking care of myself -- the outcome might not be so good. Fear of the unknown can be pretty motivating. On the few occasions when he's had to make me to do something, he does it so authoritatively that there really is no response but to comply. For instance, a couple of times I got overly tired and agitated at night and refused to sleep, so my husband actually grabbed me and firmly guided me into bed, saying, "Shut up. Get in bed. NOW" with a stony look on his face. Even though I might've look pissed off, I liked that he was that firm. Most women, if they aren't completely crazy, respond to that kind of firmness.

Anonymous Curlytop September 28, 2012 3:10 PM  

SB,
Not just farm country, but good ole' blue collar work ethic. My father was raised in a home that required BOTH genders to cook, clean, and do farm work/landscaping, so he raised us that way. By gawd, you "earned your keep" around our home.

We did outdoor labor that was within our capabilities along with the indoor chores. When time came for a car, he bought a used one to teach us with. We had to change the fluids and keep up w the general maintenance. I swear he bought that 79' Mustang, just so my sister and I would appreciate it when a man changed your oil for you. We used to quip that measuring its performance was less Miles per gallon, and more Quarts per Mile.

Anonymous Daniel September 28, 2012 3:32 PM  

Northern Observer

Daniel: "Pick a cute and young one."

I've seen this done, but it was for a nanny/maid. Young, hot and poor... and in the house all of the time.

It did not end well.


It isn't supposed to end well. It is supposed to motivate the stubborn wife and, only as a secondary outcome, help the wife if she actually needs it.

The reason I said 4-8, is that means that stg8 will likely be home and free to interact with his employee for at least a little while.

The very notion of that happening (without it happening) might be enough to move his wife to straighten out, or at least stop crabbing about the work he doesn't do. If it doesn't, he should happily follow through with his "offer of assistance" that carries the physical reality that stg8 has options and every day he sacrifices himself for his wife's sake and their marriage. Every day he chooses her, but she should never get complacent about that.

A cutie cleaning up around the house who owes a debt of gratitude to stg8 is a lovely reminder. Plus it'll get the house cleaned for once.

It doesn't have to end poorly if stg8 doesn't want it to end poorly.

Anonymous Daniel September 28, 2012 3:34 PM  

egads. just noticed my "five" key has gone on strike. Sorry stgfifty-8.

Anonymous scoobius dubious September 28, 2012 3:37 PM  

"She thinks my tractor's sexy..."

Remember that song "Tapedeck in His Tractor" in the movie "Nashville"? It genuinely does make a tractor sound sexy. That one, and "Dues" are two of the best songs in a movie filled with surprisingly good songs, considering Altman made the actors write their own (maybe they got help and that's just the press hype, who knows). The most brilliantly-filmed song in it is "I'm Easy," with Lily Tomlin's incredible closeup, but the nervous-breakdown-on-stage after "Tractor" and "Dues" is, for my money, maybe the best depiction of a nervous breakdown in the movies. Other good ones are Gena Rowlands in "A Woman Under the Influence" and Jennifer Jason Leigh in "Georgia." Very hard to do well, without hamming it all over the place.

Sorry to go OT, "Nashville" is probably my favorite American movie.

"It has to be more positive. No, more negative."

"Do they carry on like that in church?"
"Depends which church you go to."

Anonymous stg58 September 28, 2012 3:38 PM  

Daniel,

Yes, the options are there, (are they ever!) at the cost of destroying my sons' emotional health for the rest of their lives. It is an interesting idea, the time frame.

Daniel, it is stg58. Please don't defame Steyr's yeoman work on the FN-FAL.

Anonymous Josh September 28, 2012 3:42 PM  

How would it destroy their emotional health?

Anonymous JI September 28, 2012 3:42 PM  

Another study showed that the longer-lasting marriages are those in which there is not equal communication. Rather, the longest-lasting marriages were those in which she talks and he listens (or pretends to listen) but does not talk in kind.

Anonymous stg58 September 28, 2012 3:45 PM  

How would it destroy their emotional health?

Me running off with the Sofia Vergara look alike maid, or creating the impression that that is a possibility.

Anonymous stg58 September 28, 2012 3:45 PM  

Or is it just to get the competitive juices flowing?

Anonymous Daniel September 28, 2012 3:47 PM  

stgfive8 - I know! My key is failing. I pried it off, and it's gone to mush. I seriously doubt a weapon of that caliber is going to be thwarted by a keyboard cramp.

I'll go find another keyboard if it means that much to you.

Anonymous stg58 September 28, 2012 3:51 PM  

Daniel,

Just messing with you a bit.

Anonymous Daniel September 28, 2012 3:54 PM  

"creating the impression that that is a possibility." would not destroy your sons' emotional health. It gives them useful knowledge, that dad (and therefore them) is a topflight guy, not mom's tagalong.

Actually leaving, yeah, that's a totally different thing. But there is nothing unwholesome about being the sort of guy that your kids and wife know is sought after by eligible women and yet chooses to commit to them instead.

In other words it sends a good message: "Hey! Dad doesn't keep us and protect us because we're the best he can do. He keeps us and protects us because, despite a universe of options, he chooses us."

The day my respect went up for my old man was the day I realized that women other than my mom were absolutely goony over him.

Anonymous Stingray September 28, 2012 3:57 PM  

he chooses us.

For a wife, this is HUGE. I work very hard knowing I am chosen. I damn well want to keep it that way. Kids aren't old enough to realize this yet, but they will.

Anonymous stg58 September 28, 2012 4:00 PM  

I think my wife is taking that part for granted. I need to take her to some industry events where women go out of their way to talk to me.

Anonymous Curlytop September 28, 2012 4:01 PM  

Stingray September 28, 2012 3:57 PM
he chooses us.

For a wife, this is HUGE. I work very hard knowing I am chosen. I damn well want to keep it that way. Kids aren't old enough to realize this yet, but they will.

BINGO!!! And I don't remember the precise moment I recognized this with my parents, but it's always left an impression on me.

Anonymous stg58 September 28, 2012 4:02 PM  

I agree, Daniel, I realized my dad was natural born Alpha when I saw pictures of him in the 1970's, surrounded by Birch Society groupies. Cigar in one hand, a woman on each leg, and a shit eating grin on the face.

Anonymous Anonymous September 28, 2012 4:03 PM  

- The great question that has never been answered, and which I have not yet been able to answer, despite my thirty years of research into the feminine soul, is “What does a woman want?” - Freud

The answer is:


For men to ask that very question.


Jon

Anonymous stg58 September 28, 2012 4:07 PM  

I found the best definition of a misogynist the other day. Every woman I tell this to agrees it is the truth.

Misogynist: n. A man who hates women more than other women hate women.

Anonymous Stingray September 28, 2012 4:11 PM  

For men to ask that very question.

Well . . . no. We want you to just know. If you have to ask, you are in trouble.

Anonymous Daniel September 28, 2012 4:14 PM  

I think my wife is taking that part for granted. I need to take her to some industry events where women go out of their way to talk to me.

No, no, no. Go to the events like normal, and just before the ladies come over, get your wife on the phone.

"Oh, sorry, hon. I thought I had a minute, but I need to give these cuties a hand. I'll call you back in five."

Wait fifteen. When she calls you back in seven, politely answer and engage her like normal. If she brings up the girls, just say, "Yeah. It's always like that. A fairly steady stream." Don't reassure her, but don't antagonize, either. Just tell her like it is: ladies love the cool stgfive8 and you are happy to talk to her. And don't talk about your wife at the conference as a conscience shield (a sort of pathetic attempt to let everyone know, including yourself, that you are "off limits." The truth is, that you are not. Bringing up your wife is simply a deceptive way to undercut your own value to your wife in front of other people.)

Anonymous Daniel September 28, 2012 4:17 PM  

5 - hah. A bridge. It is now higher than all the other keys, but it works, sort of.

Anonymous Athor Pel September 28, 2012 4:37 PM  

" Stingray September 28, 2012 4:11 PM

For men to ask that very question.

Well . . . no. We want you to just know. If you have to ask, you are in trouble.
"





There is no ask, only tell.

Anonymous red-headed step-child September 28, 2012 4:52 PM  

"and most likely if she expects him to split the work she's some kind of feminist with one foot out the door already."

Bingo.

Anonymous Mrs. Pilgrim September 28, 2012 5:44 PM  

I see a couple of hounds started yelping over this post. Looks like the rock made contact...

Anyway.

If you're going to end up doing it one way or the other, it's a lot more annoying to have to do it when you thought - however unreasonable the expectation - that someone was going to do it to your liking for you.

This is 100% nailed. As a corollary, if you can't be grateful for the effort alone, don't ask for the help.

Anonymous Mrs. Pilgrim September 28, 2012 6:00 PM  

Me running off with the Sofia Vergara look alike maid, or creating the impression that that is a possibility.

Then don't court temptation just to make a point, if that's where you stumble. Nobody's strong enough for that.

Blogger Markku September 28, 2012 6:17 PM  

Somehow my parents have this thing working, but it seems to be a unique, random occurrence of exactly the right personalities for it. In all my life, the only situation where I see tempers rise is when my father insists on doing housework that my mother thinks should reasonably be her job. Like, when she is watching TV and plans on doing the dishes in like fifteen minutes, but my father starts doing them and then she feels like she owes him.

I can't remember a single argument where one accuses the other of doing too little, it's always about the other doing too much. Mother does most of the work, but most of what father does, he does better than her. Especially cooking. May or may not be incidental.

So, one might think I'm in a good position to be optimistic about relationships, but since I don't see this anywhere else, I have to write it off as random chance.

Blogger Markku September 28, 2012 6:18 PM  

Not saying my mother is a bad cook, just that my father has a perfectionist attitude about it.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza September 28, 2012 7:27 PM  

At the moment its just dad and I. I take care of everything from the kitchen, bathroom, trash, etc. I've never been happier and dad feels relaxed. Freed up to read or do other things, etc.

Blogger James Dixon September 28, 2012 8:13 PM  

> This is all due to sleep deprivation.

A quick bit of web searching will turn up both positive and negative advice on this, but in my experience the best solution to help with getting to sleep is 1-2 mg of melatonin. It's cheap and readily available. Don't go with anything over 3 mg though.

Blogger SarahsDaughter September 28, 2012 8:59 PM  

"Anyway, the exercise plan." - Stickwick

Thank you, I appreciate it. I definitely need to incorporate that leisurely amble on my days off of weights. It's amazing the mood I'm in after a hard workout, my days off though, even though I know my muscles need the rest, I see (in the mirror) that I still have work to do and feel like I'm a slacker (which inevitably leads to moodiness). Perhaps women are like dogs, they need to be walked every day. ;)


"So if your husband makes you do something you don't want to do, how do you respond?

Half snark, half serious question." - ODG

I don't think you understand her motivation in telling husbands to make their wives work out. The benefits expand into every area of a woman's life.

Whatever it takes to get her to start, do it. Some women need their husbands to work out with them to get them going. Some women need their husbands to tell them to read a blog whose author holds nothing back. Knowing said husband agrees with the author, she is shamed and embarrassed and gets her butt to the gym. Wives that respond to the later are those who respond positively to shame and embarrassment (yes, we exist). The actual comment was a helpful response to a wife who asks, "do you think I'm fat?" - the answer suggested was: "I don't think cellulite looks good on anyone." Oh, there was one other one, not verbatim: "no woman should weigh over 180 lbs."

If a wife needs a teaspoon of sugar to make the medicine go down, fine, do that. But understand that we often act like children in not knowing what is good for us. Fat, obesity, sluggishness, depression, heart disease, skin problems, back problems, self image issues etc. are not good for us.

And, because I know I was not smart enough to figure out that allowing my weight to soar to 195 pounds would have negative consequences, or self destructive enough to let it happen knowing the consequences, I no longer question my husband when he asks me to do something. He rarely has to make me do it.

Anonymous stg58 September 28, 2012 10:23 PM  

> This is all due to sleep deprivation.

A quick bit of web searching will turn up both positive and negative advice on this, but in my experience the best solution to help with getting to sleep is 1-2 mg of melatonin. It's cheap and readily available. Don't go with anything over 3 mg though.


James, it isn't that she can't sleep, the problem is she chooses not to, but still wants to complain about being tired.

Anonymous Anonymous September 29, 2012 12:59 AM  

Stingray,

"Well . . . no. We want you to just know. If you have to ask, you are in trouble."


I appreciate the sincere response, Stingray. However, if men consciously knew what women want, they would no longer submit to such manipulation. This isn't something women want.

Jon

Anonymous Luke September 29, 2012 8:43 AM  

Related: http://www.glennsacks.com/are_american_husbands.htm

9/29/2012

Are American Husbands Slackers?
By Jeffery M. Leving and Glenn Sacks


"In the wake of the death of feminist pioneer Betty Friedan, many women’s advocates are asserting that the revolution she began is only half complete: career opportunities have opened up for women, but these careers are being undermined and sabotaged by women’s disproportionate and unfair household obligations.

Judith Warner, author of Perfect Madness: Motherhood in the Age of Anxiety, recently asserted that the “gender caste system is still alive and well in most of our households…The outside world has changed enormously for women in these past 40 years. But home life? Think about it. Who routinely unloads the dishwasher, puts away the laundry and picks up the socks in your house?...The answer, for a great many families, is the same as it was 50 years ago...[Friedan’s] description of the lives of women in the 1950s sounded just too much like the lives of women today.” As feminist professor Linda Hirshman recently noted, “The glass ceiling begins at home.”

Careers and wage-earning have certainly increased the demands on women’s time--have American men refused to hold up their end by contributing more at home? Are American husbands slackers?

Warner, Hirshman, and other feminist critics compare the work men and women do at home but fail to properly account for their disparate obligations outside the home. Census data shows that only 40% of married women with children under 18 work full-time, and over a quarter do not hold a job outside the home.

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics’ 2004 Time Use Survey, men spend one and a half times as many hours working as women do, and full-time employed men still work significantly more hours than full-time employed women.

When both work outside the home and inside the home are properly considered, it is clear that men do at least as much as women. A 2002 University of Michigan Institute for Social Research survey found that women do 11 more hours of housework a week than men but men work 14 hours a week more than women. According to the BLS, men’s total time at leisure, sleeping, doing personal care activities, or socializing is a statistically meaningless 1% higher than women’s. The Families and Work Institute in New York City found that fathers now provide three-fourths as much child care as mothers do—50% more than 30 years ago.

Anonymous Luke September 29, 2012 8:45 AM  

(Cont.) Yet even these studies understate men’s contributions because they only count the hours devoted to a task without measuring the physical strain and/or danger associated with the task. A man doing eight hours of dangerous construction work in the 100-degree heat is credited with no more "work" than a woman who works in an air-conditioned office or who does childcare or housework in the comfort and safety of her own home (and without a supervisor breathing down her neck).

According to the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, more than three million workers a year are treated in hospital emergency rooms for occupational injuries—the vast majority of them suffered by men. Nearly 100,000 American workers have died from job-related injuries over the past decade and a half, 95% of them men. Of the 25 most dangerous jobs listed by the U.S. Department of Labor, all of them are between 90 percent and 100 percent male.

The sacrifices made by men like Terry Helms, one of the 12 miners killed in the Sago Mine disaster last month, are unrecorded in the studies. Terry’s son Nick told the Associated Press that his father “had endured numerous injuries in a 30-year career and hated mining because of the dangers.”

“[My father] is very selfless,” Nick said. “[He] refused to quit because the job put food on the table…He gave his life in there so I could go to the movies.”

It is true, as Warner and Hirshman assert, that work outside the home is often more interesting than work done in the home. Yet it is also true that work done in the home—particularly time spent with one’s children when they are young—is often more satisfying than wage work.

Feminists’ persistent criticism of men has combined with women’s traditional expectations of their husbands to place men in a double bind. A man may be a devoted caretaker of his children or a talented cook, but if he is unable to provide for his family, he is not respected. Yet when a man works long hours to fulfill the breadwinner role which he is still expected to perform, he is blamed for not contributing as much at home as his wife does.

Feminists are right to complain that with long work weeks, the high cost of child care, scant union protections, and inflexible workplaces, working women often face a trying juggling act. But they’re wrong to place the blame on husbands, who do their fair share and often make great sacrifices to provide for their wives and children."

Anonymous Luke September 29, 2012 8:49 AM  

Also: http://www.glennsacks.com/men_women_and.htm

Excerpts:

"... the U.N. report upon which most claims of "women work more" are based was deeply flawed. In fact, U.N. official Terry McKinley admitted in February, 1996 that the U.N. misrepresented the study in several important ways. For one, the information provided by the U.N. to the press only applied to countries where women were found to work more hours than men; the countries where men were found to work more hours than women were deliberately excluded.

Moreover, when the data provided by researchers in some countries (including the U.S.) did not fit the U.N.'s intention to show that women "do more," researchers were asked in a private communication to amend their studies. Researchers were asked to include women's voluntary community work as well as hobbies in order to increase women's perceived workload. Researchers were not asked to include these items or new ones in men's labor. As a study of men and women's labor, the U.N. findings are worthless."

"...Hochschild arrived at her "women do more" conclusion through a variety of disreputable gimmicks. For one, she compared the housework burdens of full-time employed males with those of part-time employed females, portraying men working 50 hour weeks as lazy and selfish for not doing as much housework as their wives who were working a 20 hour week. Also, she claimed that men did no more housework in the late 1980s than in the pre-feminist era, but, with one minor exception, she used data on male housework from studies done in the pre-feminist era, rendering it worthless. In addition, she also defined "housework" to include chores usually done by women, ignoring many of the household tasks generally performed by men."

Anonymous Stingray September 29, 2012 9:09 AM  

However, if men consciously knew what women want, they would no longer submit to such manipulation. This isn't something women want.

Well, that just the thing. Most women do not actually know what they truly want. What they say they want does not square up with what arouses them. A woman does want power over a man, but she does not respect the man whom she can manipulate. It's a catch 22, really. If she is allowed, through manipulation or outright bossiness, to have power over a man, there will be no respect, no love and no attraction. This is why one sees so many marriages with the wife often having a slight look of annoyance on her face or outright disgust. In her bones, she does not want a man whom she can manipulate. She wants a man who she can respect. Woman respect a man who doesn't put up with this kind of thing and won't allow it.

Case in point, the number of women who will run off with the bad boy or the man who shows her zero respect when there is a perfectly nice man right there for her.

Anonymous CaptDMO September 29, 2012 9:48 AM  

Latest studies show...
Ho hum
1.Look up "gate keeping"/pursuit of ease/rent- seeker, in some introduction to psych book.
2. Look up "Division of Labor" (also rent-seeker)in some introduction to Economics/Anthropology/Sociology book.
3. Read "The Taming of the Shrew". Maybe Canterbury Tales.

Alternitively, read all of Aesops Fables.

Why can't the feminine gender effectively function outside "traditional" (how many years of trial-and- error "research" do you think THAT took to establish?)rolls, without even MORE expectation of "special protections", entirely at the expense of "others" of course.

Chores
I recently read that SOME American Hyphen Islamist folk were DEMANDING censorship of "emotions" unflatering of their OWN "spiritual" laws, and mesiah, in the "big city" US. They seem to be willing to "demonstrate" to try for it.

Hope the Virginia Slims crowd is NOW ready to "get out of the house" to also take care of their "fair share" of swatting the camel's nose out of the tent. I believe the compensation for such work is exactly equal to the DOB hyphen KIA folks before them.

Anonymous yukonyon September 30, 2012 3:08 PM  

Vox, first off, great post. This goes right along with my understanding that that is that when a woman cleans, she is simply satisfying an instinct to nest. It's almost hand-in-hand with an instinct to have babies. It makes total sense that a woman would be happier when something is done as closely as possible to her expectations, as the multi-tiered stasis of her endocrinology is very sensitive to such unnoticeable deviations as a speck of dust being out of place. In fact, when the topic of marital household chores came up, I grew very accustomed to telling my girlfriends and prospective wives in the past "hey, it's your nesting instinct, and not mine. What makes you think that I should help you satisfy it When you have your period, do you want me to do my share of the bleeding?" It threw them off guard, but it was unexpected how many of them accepted that answer. And it easily sorted out the good ones from the bad. The thing I find amazing about this is that science took this long to discover that women dislike something that isn't quite compatible with what their hormones are telling them.

Anonymous Luke September 30, 2012 5:34 PM  

" And it easily sorted out the good ones from the bad."

An easier way to do that, yukonyon.

Give/lend them a copy of Debi Pearl's book "Created To Be His Helpmeet". By her reaction to that, you'll know how feminist vs. potentially able to commit to marriage a woman is by her reaction -- and you'll also find out (if you don't already know) how willing she is to read. The latter is important for educating little ones.

Anonymous Anonymous October 01, 2012 12:03 AM  

Stingray,


Women aren't aware of it, but manipulating men is what they do. Women have never gone anywhere that men haven't gone first, and they benefit every time. They live longer, softer lives, using men to create the footholds, and all the while they avoid any blame should anything go wrong. What have women created for the benefit of men?

The world wouldn't be stuffed to the rafters with philogynists if men weren't in a manipulated stupor.


Jon

Anonymous E. PERLINE October 01, 2012 7:17 PM  

To Anonymous-

A woman is on a mission to have babies. She doesn't need a husband to be another one of her children.

A woman wants a man who will help her with her mission. She wants a man who can appreciate her but who actually doesn't need her, either before or after their marriage.

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