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Wednesday, September 12, 2012

Never count on a court

They always find a way to do what the politicians want them to do. Their job isn't oversight, as it is commonly thought, but finding ways to publicly rationalize the obviously ridiculous:
Germany’s top court on Wednesday rejected calls to block ratification of the European Stability Mechanism, triggering a modest sigh of relief from financial markets and clearing the way for implementation of an important tool in Europe’s effort to contain its three-year-old debt crisis.

In a decision read from the bench of the Federal Constitutional Court in Karlsruhe, the red-robed judges rejected six requests for an injunction to prevent Germany’s president from signing the treaty establishing the 500 billion euro ($643.7 billion) permanent rescue fund.
Reuters Judges at Germany’s Federal Constitutional Court in Karlsruhe.

The decision eliminates the threat that Germany, the euro zone’s largest economy and paymaster, would be blocked from participating, which would have effectively scuppered the fund and potentially set off a financial panic.
What the courts do, both in Europe and the USA, is to come up with language to circumvent the clear language of black letter law. Consider the following text:

a) Article 136 (3) TFEU does not change the orientation of the monetary union, nor does it remove the prohibition contained in Article 125 TFEU of assuming the liabilities of other Member States; it merely contains a clarification. The measures of stability support of the Member States are not measures of monetary policy for which, under Article 3 (1) point (c) TFEU, the European Union would be competent. The granting of financial assistance is a measure of economic policy, for which the Member States are competent.

In other words, the prohibited action is legal, not because the prohibition has been removed by court fiat, but because the prohibited action is supposed to not be the action everyone knows it to be. In this case, mere assistance is being granted, which is legal, instead of liability being assumed. Of course, the assistance being granted is the effective assumption of the liability.

This is why Tocqueville was correct to point out that it was America's populace, and not her laws, that made America great. But America's populace has changed dramatically, and that is why, as Tocqueville correctly predicted is no longer great.

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214 Comments:

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Blogger okrahead September 12, 2012 7:21 AM  

So democracy is failing in Deutschland while the population has its savings looted to pay for wastrel neighbors, all during a period when former fringe groups gain strength due to popular disgust with the elites immigration policies. The results are an angry German populace, an out of control debt crisis leading to devaluation of the currency, and a desire by the people for a strong man to unify the Volk and save the nation. Surely nothing bad could come of all this.

Anonymous TheExpat September 12, 2012 7:28 AM  

So, the German constitutional court ratified the European Central Bank's bond-buying program...

This will either last until the next German elections, at which time the German people will make their displeasure about being made to bail out the rest of Europe known, or until what cannot go on forever (attempting to fix a solvency problem with even more debt), doesn't, with predictable consequences.

How long do you give until there is marching to drumbeat in Europe again?

Anonymous Luke September 12, 2012 7:40 AM  

Somewhat related: 20-second video of a young Ben Bernake:

http://www.financialarmageddon.com/2012/09/a-young-ben-bernanke.html

Anonymous Salt September 12, 2012 7:48 AM  

Where have we heard such abusive language before? Oh, yeah. It's not a penalty, it's a tax.

Nothing to see here. Move along.

Anonymous Mr. Nightstick September 12, 2012 7:50 AM  

But America's populace has changed dramatically, and that is why, as Tocqueville correctly predicted is no longer great.

But is anywhere great? Or is America still the smallest pile of crap? I mean you moved to Italy because it's pre collapsed. That could mean that everyone there is already used to crap.

Anonymous stats79 September 12, 2012 8:46 AM  

Not a lot of justice in the "justice system".

Blogger JartStar September 12, 2012 9:19 AM  

But is anywhere great? Or is America still the smallest pile of crap?

You have to think regionally and not nationally now. Just like many places in the South are better than the North in the US, northern Italy is better off than southern Italy.

The most important factor after moving to an area that is better, but not perfect, is the local community. When things get bad you will have to rely on friends and family, and before bad times happen having good friends and family makes life enjoyable.

Moving to a foreign country has an inherent risk of not being part of the tribe. Vox has said many times that the Italians view him as an American and not an Italian. If things got bad would they help him the same as an Italian?

Anonymous PC Geek September 12, 2012 9:48 AM  

Moving to a foreign country has an inherent risk of not being part of the tribe. Vox has said many times that the Italians view him as an American and not an Italian. If things got bad would they help him the same as an Italian?


And therein is the biggest problem moving to another country - even if you inclined to go somewhere where you feel you will have a better life, when bad times come, it is far better to be aomng people who will view you as one of them rather than an outsider.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 September 12, 2012 9:49 AM  

The court system, when it comes to ruling on the actions of government officials and agents, has had a long and proud history of rubber stamping atrocious and egregious laws, decrees, and mandates which benefit only a select few while destroying the natural freedoms God gave all us.

Most people, however, continue to trust in them and think their rulings are the law of the land. In the United States, there is no such language in the Constitution yet people continue to stand on the fallacious precedent of Marbury v. Madison as if it were codified in that old contract.

As an example, I had an argument a while back that the Supreme Court would upheld Obamacare with my father. He was dead certain it would be overturned and trusted that they would do the right thing. And while I was a little surprised that John Roberts was the deciding vote, I was right in the end.

I wish people would just accept that most court rulings are illegitimate and that all judges are put in place to rubber stamp the agenda of the State.

But then again, MPAI.

Anonymous Mrs. Pilgrim September 12, 2012 10:25 AM  

OT, guys, but the slippery slope is sliding as predicted.

Anonymous Starbuck September 12, 2012 10:28 AM  

I find it interesting that people are surprised at what is happening in the entire world. Debt, Financial Emergencies, people being robbed of their hard earned wealth, or even in herited wealth. The more I learn of this world economic system, the less I am surprised at what is happening. It is quite simple in a comlex way. All this fiat, all this credit/debt is a system that is designed to enslave the world without the "masters" investing or spending any kind of their wealth to buy it. They make the money out of thin air and then enslave the entire world. These collapses is just a way of showing that the enslavement is complete there. Collapse is coming here. It isn't a question of if but when. There is no other outcome. The only way to beat it is war. The people projecting power through banks and corporations could be killed. Once they are killed, the debt owed them is no longer valid. Of course, at the top of the "global elite" is Satan. So that just might be a tough war.

Anonymous Orion September 12, 2012 10:39 AM  

A very apt citation of Tocqueville. A point few understand is that the founders recognized that NO system of government can function better than the moral level of the people implementing it allows. The Constitution has been copied (sometimes almost verbatim) literally hundreds of times elsewhere in the world. It has only been successful a few times. The ruling classes have undermined the moral code of the people here by various methods to the point that the Constitution has become no more meaningful here than any where else. The thing that Wheeler and many small "d" small "r" democrats and republicans miss is that no system can exceed the quality of the people creating it. An extended period in the crucible is likely to be required to re-temper the metal of civilization.

Anonymous Gx1080 September 12, 2012 10:57 AM  

So basically, the taxpayer gets looted to keep the weapon used by the ruling class to subjugate the rest of Europe: The Euro.

Besides being completely predictable, there's going to be quite a bit of people thinking: "You know, those Golden Dawn guys don't sound too bad now".

Anonymous RC September 12, 2012 11:04 AM  

What the courts do, both in Europe and the USA, is to come up with language to circumvent the clear language of black letter law." - VD

This is word. Black letter law means nothing. The case law can and is perverted to cover for any decision. We're exposed to the large rationalizations like Obamacare, Roe, GM, Crysler, Sentinel and many others.

It's important to keep in mind that the same corrupts process in play across thousands of cases each and every day: politics, bribes, friendships, fraternities, social occasions. It's a dirty, dirty business that has no relationship with Justice.

Where are the honest weights and measures? Where is justice. Those that participate should take heed of Jehoshaphat's command, "Consider carefully what you do, because you are not judging for man but for the LORD, who is with you whenever you give a verdict. 7 Now let the fear of the LORD be upon you. Judge carefully, for with the LORD our God there is no injustice or partiality or bribery."

Judgement Day will be hell for those that have sold justice out.

Anonymous jack September 12, 2012 11:05 AM  

Orion:

Well put indeed. I suppose there is no way to avoid whats coming. I'm getting a bit long in the tooth for it all. Was reading the book 'No Easy Day' by that Seal that was on the UBL raid. Most inspirational. Want to bet the PTB will do all in their power to keep our best troops 'over there' while the coup happens? No one want to bet? Did not think so.

Anonymous Orion September 12, 2012 11:12 AM  

@jack

They used to take polls within the military back in the 1990s of elite military formations and ask how they would react to orders to disarm the citizenry. The response was over 90% negative. No idea if they still do these checks or do it in a different manner. No doubt our rulers are waiting for that number to become more positive as they continue to work on turning them into pure mercenaries.

Anonymous Jake September 12, 2012 11:13 AM  

Jartstar: The most important factor after moving to an area that is better, but not perfect, is the local community. When things get bad you will have to rely on friends and family, and before bad times happen having good friends and family makes life enjoyable.

Moving to a foreign country has an inherent risk of not being part of the tribe. Vox has said many times that the Italians view him as an American and not an Italian. If things got bad would they help him the same as an Italian?


I've come to the same conclusions. Seems pretty unlikely that America for example is going to survive the cancers that are consuming it from within. Even less likely there's anything we are going to do that will change it's fate appreciably. So be it. Let it die. I think the best bet for liberty long term is the local one. Quit trying to save the nation and worry more about your family, friends, maybe your local community, but not much larger than that.

Anonymous dh September 12, 2012 11:27 AM  

All of the wringing of hands in Courts is just silly, anyways. They should just stick the law, and if it comes with a result that is disfavorable, just change the law.

Especially in America.

Anonymous George September 12, 2012 11:47 AM  

Swiftfox wrote:

"In the United States, there is no such language in the Constitution yet people continue to stand on the fallacious precedent of Marbury v. Madison as if it were codified in that old contract."

The problem with Marbury isn't it's endorsement of judicial review. That ancient concept is easily justified on a number of grounds. The REAL problem with Marbury v. Madison is that Justice Marshall should never had decided the case. He should clearly have recused himself due to extraordinary conflicts of interests.

Anonymous George September 12, 2012 11:51 AM  

VD Said:

"What the courts do, both in Europe and the USA, is to come up with language to circumvent the clear language of black letter law."

It's not always so black, particularly where the U.S. Constitution is concerned. In many cases it's very grey. This notion that the language of the law, including the Constitution, always possesses clear meaning can't be sustained.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera September 12, 2012 11:54 AM  

Vox,

I'm searching for criticism of my worldview, and I'm not getting any traction in the thread on atheism. I think I'd attract more criticism where the group identifies as atheists/skeptics/etc.

Do you know of any atheist bloggers or communities that have at least a 5% contingent of atheists who are not raving idiots?

(I know one Christian is supposed to sharpen another, but I often observe the opposite.)

Anonymous Aeoli Pera September 12, 2012 11:58 AM  

I think the problem is that the ilk prefer direct confrontations and I'm too close to the norm.

Funny thought: maybe I should set up a honeypot like carm.org. If I build it, they will come. :-)

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 September 12, 2012 11:59 AM  

The problem with Marbury isn't it's endorsement of judicial review. That ancient concept is easily justified on a number of grounds. The REAL problem with Marbury v. Madison is that Justice Marshall should never had decided the case. He should clearly have recused himself due to extraordinary conflicts of interests.

Regardless of the circumstances of the court at the time, it is clear that this decision made the Federal courts higher than Congress, and more powerful to boot. It is a shame that the only case of Judicial nullification came from President Andrew Jackson who ignored the courts and moved Indians off their lands.

The fact is, Congress can pass a law that overturns any decision they come up with. Ron Paul knew this very well when he proposed the Sanctity of Life Act and yet he only received a handful of co-sponsers proving that the Republicans, pro-life as they are, only care about the rampant murdering of the unborn when it is in the court system and not when they actually have to make a decision.

Anonymous George September 12, 2012 12:10 PM  

Swift:

You wrote:

"it is clear that this decision [Marbury] made the Federal courts higher than Congress, and more powerful to boot."

Then you wrote:

"The fact is, Congress can pass a law that overturns any decision they come up with."

These seem to be contradictory statements.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza September 12, 2012 12:30 PM  

The justices are above the law too? What a magic pen! Nothing we didn't already know but how disturbing is this beats this weeks neocon news.

Anonymous Jay September 12, 2012 1:00 PM  

Question Vox...

It seems to me that there is a "sweet spot", in terms of the populice being in a place where they are heavily influenced by Christianity (and are in fact largely "Christian"), but yet not too "fundamentalist", and it's that sweetspot that produces the best "America".

When everyone becomes extremely literalist and tries to enshrine all their own personal moral tenants in the law (which CS Lewis warned against), things go to shit. But at the same time, when everyone forsakes the Christendom that is at the root of America, everything goes to shit as well.

"Braveheart" for instance seems very much a product of Christianity (although maybe not explicitly), but at the same time the sort of "ned flanders" fundamentalist Christianity seems to be the polar opposite of that.

It's almost as if Christianity has been a foundation stone of which even greater (more secure, interpretive) things could come.

Do you think there's some truth in this?

Anonymous JI September 12, 2012 1:40 PM  

If Vox would move back to America then the populace would again be great.

Anonymous Stilicho September 12, 2012 1:50 PM  

They used to take polls within the military back in the 1990s of elite military formations and ask how they would react to orders to disarm the citizenry. The response was over 90% negative. No idea if they still do these checks or do it in a different manner. No doubt our rulers are waiting for that number to become more positive as they continue to work on turning them into pure mercenaries.

The military will not be asked to disarm the citizenry. If anything, they will be asked to disarm "terrorist elements" (i.e. any armed citizen) making their complicity more likely, at least for a little while. Moreover, the more likely scenario is to use police to attack the citizenry and disarm them since police forces already tend to view citizens as the enemy and/or prey.

Anonymous George September 12, 2012 3:55 PM  

Stilcho said:

"Moreover, the more likely scenario is to use police to attack the citizenry and disarm them since police forces already tend to view citizens as the enemy and/or prey."

What sort of circumstances do you imagine in which Americans take up arms against their government so that they will need to be disarmed???

Anonymous Anonymous September 12, 2012 4:01 PM  

Watch Nigel Farage stand up to Barroso, the EC's current prez. Gotta love that Limey.

Anonymous Stilicho September 12, 2012 4:28 PM  

There are no circumstances under which American citizens need to be disarmed for the protection of government.

Anonymous Yep. September 12, 2012 4:32 PM  

What sort of circumstances do you imagine in which Americans take up arms against their government so that they will need to be disarmed???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6ikO6LMxF4

Anonymous Azimus September 12, 2012 4:58 PM  

Mr. Nightstick September 12, 2012 7:50 AM
But America's populace has changed dramatically, and that is why, as Tocqueville correctly predicted is no longer great.

But is anywhere great?


I suppose you would have to define your yardstick before you can answer the question. China is building up enormous wealth and infrastructure, as are other places in the Far East. Russia is certainly doing it's share of sabre rattling and conventional empire building. Parts of the middle east are rolling in petro-dollars and building 5000ft tall towers and mini-islands. Canada remains large and substantively empty.

So, like I said, it depends on the yardstick.



Anonymous Azimus September 12, 2012 5:28 PM  

George September 12, 2012 11:51 AM
This notion that the language of the law, including the Constitution, always possesses clear meaning can't be sustained.


Particularly when the powers that be feel the need to legislate EVERYTHING.

Anonymous George September 12, 2012 5:31 PM  

STilcho wrote:

"There are no circumstances under which American citizens need to be disarmed for the protection of government."

Granted. But can certainly imagine where the disarming of a few folks who have nastiness on their mind might call for the disarming of them.

Let me put it another way since you suggested it, what circumstances can you imagine that might convince the government to send in troops to do some disarming?

Blogger ajw308 September 12, 2012 5:31 PM  

The military will not be asked to disarm the citizenry. Blackwater's long term business plan relied heavily on domestic work. That was by a highly trained employee back before they changed their name.

Anonymous WinstonWebb September 12, 2012 5:47 PM  

Let me put it another way since you suggested it, what circumstances can you imagine that might convince the government to send in troops to do some disarming?

I can imagine any number of innocent, completely mundane circumstances that might convince the government to send in troops to do some disarming.
Sarah Brady has made a &#$%ing career out of asking pols to do anything and everything just short of that. Why stop at "just short" if she's right?

Anonymous realmatt September 12, 2012 5:56 PM  

I don't know what you're talking about. They disarmed many people in the aftermath of Katrina and that was with zero threats against the government.

PERCEIVED threats with any sort of real world event that can be used to justify any sort of government action will always be taken advantaged of.

Anonymous WinstonWebb September 12, 2012 5:58 PM  

PERCEIVED threats with any sort of real world event that can be used to justify any sort of government action will always be taken advantaged of.

What?!? You mean those with power can be persuaded to claim and use more of it?

Anonymous Azimus September 12, 2012 6:00 PM  

George September 12, 2012 12:10 PM Swift:

You wrote:

"it is clear that this decision [Marbury] made the Federal courts higher than Congress, and more powerful to boot."

Then you wrote:

"The fact is, Congress can pass a law that overturns any decision they come up with."

These seem to be contradictory statements.


Not contradictory. Congress passes a law that can be thrown out based on the court's interpretation. Congress can then pass a revised law that accomodates the court's interpretation and would therefore "overturn" the court's decision. It's iterative but it should be. Only in autocracy can/should a "buck stops here" entity exist.

Anonymous Gen. Kong September 12, 2012 7:16 PM  

okrahead:
So democracy is failing in Deutschland while the population has its savings looted to pay for wastrel neighbors, all during a period when former fringe groups gain strength due to popular disgust with the elites immigration policies. The results are an angry German populace, an out of control debt crisis leading to devaluation of the currency, and a desire by the people for a strong man to unify the Volk and save the nation. Surely nothing bad could come of all this.

I do wish folks would stop buying into the idea that the Germans' savings are being looted by their erected officials to pay a bunch of wastrel Greeks and Italians. Apart from a few Goldman employees running the "democratic" EUSSR provincial governments there, no Greeks or Italians will be paid - even though German savings will absolutely be looted. The payments are going to the bond holders of bad debt run up by the Greek and Italian okrugs of the EUSSR. It would be fascinating to know who? and whom?, but the true payees will be largely concealed from view. What's that giant sucking sound?

Anonymous George September 12, 2012 9:20 PM  

RealMatt said:

"PERCEIVED threats with any sort of real world event that can be used to justify any sort of government action will always be taken advantaged of."

That's a bit too vague to have any meaning. Sorry.

Anonymous George September 12, 2012 9:22 PM  

Azimus:

If, as you say, "Congress can then pass a revised law that accomodates the court's interpretation and would therefore "overturn" the court's decision," then how is the court higher than the Congress?

Anonymous Godfrey September 12, 2012 10:01 PM  

I predicted the “Supreme” Court’s ruling on Obama-care. People in the office were shocked when I stated the Court would uphold it and were stunned when they did. The ruling elites want control of healthcare and now they have it. It really is that simple. The Court’s job is to perform legal gymnastics to justify it.

The government is corrupt, oppressive and illegitimate. More people realize it with every passing day.

Anonymous The OASF September 13, 2012 12:38 AM  

The reason that Americans, or anyone else in the West for that matter, can not resist the tyranny oozing from the elite circles is that the populace has been successfully divided and pitted against one another. The courts are just another tool used to conquer and divide. The rulings issued by the highest judicial thrones are nonsensical, defy logic, precedent, common sense and just about every other intellectual standard that we can think of. The only purpose of their intellectual drivel is to play more mind games with the fluoride-head fatties who are ever increasingly broke, sick and miserable. The Europeans, e.g. the Greeks, are somewhat wise to these schemes and not quite as emaciated having been put through hell since centuries past - so they grab the pitchforks and at least take to the streets, unfortunately to no avail. Americans, on the other hand, can not even put the remote down or stop bitching about their "welfare bum" neighbor long enough to find Wall Street on a map. So there we are.

Side note: most judges at the highest levels et. al. are members of the usual suspect secret societies. Roberts is a Federalist Society member. So if these suspiciously-sounding-alike rulings seem like a coordinated attack on our society, well, that's because they are a coordinated attack on our society.

A salient point... of the most interesting postings in this blog, I thought, was when VD posted some very basic statistics about the government's manpower resources to control the populace during The Collapse. He demonstrated that the government would hopelessly outgunned and outnumbered. However, they will have a huge advantage because I expect the people to fight amongst themselves more so than resist any troops in the streets. After all, "I've been waiting forever to put a bullet in that useless welfare bum's ass!" Think of the movie "Gangs of New York." The Federal forces bomb and shoot away and the little people are still at each others throats even as the bombs and shrapnel are flying amongst them from another invader/attacker. Now I realize it's just a movie, but there is historical accuracy here. Interesting times indeed... don't ya just wish we had the "boring 50s" back?

Anonymous Noah B. September 13, 2012 2:45 AM  

@Gen. Kong

"The payments are going to the bond holders of bad debt run up by the Greek and Italian okrugs of the EUSSR. It would be fascinating to know who? and whom?, but the true payees will be largely concealed from view. What's that giant sucking sound?"

As usual, you nailed it. The Germans are likely bailing out their own bankers in a brazen act of money laundering.

Anonymous Noah B. September 13, 2012 2:49 AM  

On the subject of the Libyan consulate killings, my speculation is that it will not be long before we hear that the guards were ordered not to fire on assailants and that those orders came from Obama.

Anonymous Jonesing September 13, 2012 8:35 AM  

I hate it when I can't get my Vox fix in the morning...

Anonymous The other skeptic September 13, 2012 10:00 AM  

On another front, it seems likely that Chicago teachers are on strike because they don't want to be held accountable for the failure of dumb people to learn.

Anonymous The other skeptic September 13, 2012 10:02 AM  

On the subject of the Libyan consulate killings, my speculation is that it will not be long before we hear that the guards were ordered not to fire on assailants and that those orders came from Obama.

Just think how others in the Department of State feel seeing an ambassador being hung out to dry.

What a limp-wrist response from the administration. They have three carrier groups in the region and they do nothing.

Anonymous George September 13, 2012 10:14 AM  

"What a limp-wrist response from the administration. They have three carrier groups in the region and they do nothing."

Well, we could lay waste to Tripoli. That would fix things up good. Of course, it's unlikely it would have any impact on he folks that planned the attack in Benghazi, but still it sure would feel good. And, it would offer the added bonus of resulting in many more attacks on American assets throughout the middle east, the deaths of many more Americans, etc.

Anonymous The other skeptic September 13, 2012 10:18 AM  

Well, we could lay waste to Tripoli. That would fix things up good. Of course, it's unlikely it would have any impact on he folks that planned the attack in Benghazi, but still it sure would feel good. And, it would offer the added bonus of resulting in many more attacks on American assets throughout the middle east, the deaths of many more Americans, etc.

Such a poor thinker. The correct solution is to lay waste to Benghazi. And then to any other city where American interests are attacked.

Pretty soon they would get the message.

Anonymous Blowback September 13, 2012 10:29 AM  

"Such a poor thinker. The correct solution is to lay waste to Benghazi." tos

Aren't there a bunch of innocent women and children that live there?

Anonymous Azimus September 13, 2012 10:47 AM  

I think I see what you're saying George. In the iterative process as I described it, the court is "higher" than the Congress once the law is passed when it interprets the law through the Constitution (which, ideally, is the highest authority of all). If the law is ruled unconstitutional, the court discloses why. After this happens, Congress becomes "higher" than the court when it crafts a revised law based on the court's ruling. In this way, Congress has the last action, abd presumably the court would not rule against a law designed to accomodate their own ruling. If they do, in a perfect world Congress and the Court reach an equilibrium where neither is higher than the other, both are satisfied with the law and all are under the guiding authority of the Constitution.


So, depending on what stage of the process you're in, one appears higher than the other, and that is why the two statements you were looking at were not contradictory.

Anonymous Azimus September 13, 2012 11:23 AM  

George September 13, 2012 10:14 AM
Well, we could lay waste to Tripoli. That would fix things up good. Of course, it's unlikely it would have any impact on he folks that planned the attack in Benghazi, but still it sure would feel good. And, it would offer the added bonus of resulting in many more attacks on American assets throughout the middle east, the deaths of many more Americans, etc.


It would be no less rational than the folks who attacked the embassy and murdered the soldiers and employees working there because of a "Muhammed" video. Obviously bombing Tripoli makes no sense. However some kind of use of force is necessary: there are a lot more consulates and embassies out there that could be attacked. The personal bravery of Marine Embassy Guards notwithstanding, they are basically only protected by the threat of overwhelming retaliation if someone had the idea of launching an attack.

I think it's fair to say that everyone in Benghazi knows what part of the city these folks came from. Depending on the cooperation of the Libyan governement, you either cordon off that part of the city and sweep it for weapons,etc., or you bombard it. Is it rational? No, violence rarely is. However the other party has clearly taken rational thought off the table.

Anonymous WinstonWebb September 13, 2012 11:39 AM  

It would be no less rational than the folks who attacked the embassy and murdered the soldiers and employees working there because of a "Muhammed" video. Obviously bombing Tripoli makes no sense. However some kind of use of force is necessary: there are a lot more consulates and embassies out there that could be attacked.

The occupants of the Middle East are historically irrational. I see no indication that will change any time in the near future. Therefore, escalating violence will do nothing to resolve the situation. In fact, due to the inherent irrationality of the region, it would likely only make matters worse - history supports this.

Ronald Reagan, for all the man's myriad faults, realized this and demonstrated the correct tactic for such a situation when he pulled us out of Lebanon.

Anonymous Mrs. Pilgrim September 13, 2012 11:54 AM  

Ronald Reagan, for all the man's myriad faults, realized this and demonstrated the correct tactic for such a situation when he pulled us out of Lebanon.

Well, we could leave, and burn and break things as we go. Not actually target any civilians, but just kind of knock the place over as a goodbye present. It just doesn't seem cricket to let the act of war go unanswered at all.

Anonymous WinstonWebb September 13, 2012 11:57 AM  

Well, we could leave, and burn and break things as we go.

'K. I'm on board with that.

Anonymous George September 13, 2012 12:34 PM  

Azimus wrote:

"It would be no less rational than the folks who attacked the embassy and murdered the soldiers and employees working there because of a "Muhammed" video."

Well, perhaps the best course of action is to be a bit more rational.


"I think it's fair to say that everyone in Benghazi knows what part of the city these folks came from. Depending on the cooperation of the Libyan governement, you either cordon off that part of the city and sweep it for weapons,etc., or you bombard it. Is it rational? No, violence rarely is. However the other party has clearly taken rational thought off the table."

Really? we know where the attackers came from...from which city blocks they reside in? If you know this, then you ought to be spending less time at this blog and more time working with the AMerican intelligence community.

Anonymous Clay September 13, 2012 12:34 PM  

George, I think you're lost, again...the ladie's powder room is two doors down the hall.

Anonymous Azimus September 13, 2012 12:36 PM  

WinstonWebb September 13, 2012 11:57 AM
Well, we could leave, and burn and break things as we go.

'K. I'm on board with that.


That would be best.



Anonymous George September 13, 2012 12:37 PM  

Mrs. Pilgrim said:

"Well, we could leave, and burn and break things as we go. Not actually target any civilians, but just kind of knock the place over as a goodbye present. It just doesn't seem cricket to let the act of war go unanswered at all."

Well, it's not really an act of war carried out by the Libyan state any more than the Oklahoma Bombing was an act of war carried out against the U.S. by the state of Oklahoma.

Anonymous George September 13, 2012 12:38 PM  

Clay said:

"George, I think you're lost, again...the ladie's powder room is two doors down the hall."

I was waiting in line to get in Clay, but you spent so much time in there with the door locked. Open the damn door would you!!

Anonymous WinstonWebb September 13, 2012 12:49 PM  

it's not really an act of war carried out by the Libyan state

She didn't say that it was. Only that retaliation was called for...as we are backing out the door.

I actually think that's more than fair:
You killed our Ambassador, we get it, you want us to leave.
But you KILLED our Ambassador, so we're gonna burn the bridge and salt the earth in our trail.

Anonymous Azimus September 13, 2012 12:54 PM  

George September 13, 2012 12:34 PM
Really? we know where the attackers came from...from which city blocks they reside in? If you know this, then you ought to be spending less time at this blog and more time working with the AMerican intelligence community.


First of all this comment added nothing to the conversation, so it is disappointing that this is all you could come up with.

Second, in response, you are clearly not a law enforcement officer or spend much time in a major city outside the protection of your Lexus SUV humming down the freeway.

You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes here George. Just spend 20 minutes talking to the Libyan Army guys who fought these people LAST YEAR and ask them what neighborhoods they fought in. Clearly the embassy security wounded or killed some people - where do they live? It takes hours to stir up a mob and get them angry enough and brave enough to attack an American target bristling with defenses. Talk to some people, find out where the agitators were rallying people. Are you familiar at all with this sort of legwork? This is like 101 policework man.

Anonymous patrick kelly September 13, 2012 1:14 PM  

Incrementally ratchet up the retaliation until it reaches the level when it may reasonably be observed that it is effectively deterring mobs from attacking our embassies.

If we are not willing to do that, we should just close them, pack up, and come home from any savage hell hole where the local state cannot keep their populace on a tight enough leash to deter such actions themselves.

Anonymous George September 13, 2012 1:14 PM  

Winston said:

"She didn't say it was [an act of war]"

Actually she did: " It just doesn't seem cricket to let the act of war go unanswered at all."

The only reason I point that out is that acts of war have pretty serious national and international legal consequences that acts of terrorism do not.

Finally, when you say "YOU killed out ambassador", I'm not sure who you are addressing in the "you" part. Clearly its not the state of Libya. So it begs the question, what are consequences of punishing the state and its peoples' infrastructure in retaliation. It may have benefits beyond simple revenge. As an act of deterrence, I think it's pretty clear that it will have no impact on the thoughts of militants in the middle east. Will it have an impact on getting state authorities to crack down on militants in their country? There's no good evidence that would be the case either.

Anonymous George September 13, 2012 1:16 PM  

Azimus said:

" Clearly the embassy security wounded or killed some people - where do they live? It takes hours to stir up a mob and get them angry enough and brave enough to attack an American target bristling with defenses. Talk to some people, find out where the agitators were rallying people"

What's interesting is the possibility that this wasn't really a "mob" at all but a pretty well advanced plan that was waiting for opportunity.

Still, I question whether bombing a particular city area would have any positive impact whatsoever.

Anonymous pdimov September 13, 2012 1:30 PM  

Wanis al-Sharef, a Libyan Interior Ministry official in Benghazi, said the four Americans were killed when the angry mob, which gathered to protest a U.S.-made film that ridicules Islam's Prophet Muhammad, fired guns and burned down the U.S. consulate in Benghazi.


He said Stevens, 52, and other officials were moved to a second building - deemed safer - after the initial wave of protests at the consulate compound. According to al-Sharef, members of the Libyan security team seem to have indicated to the protesters the building to which the American officials had been relocated, and that building then came under attack.


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57511043/assault-on-u.s-consulate-in-benghazi-leaves-4-dead-including-u.s-ambassador-j-christopher-stevens/

Anonymous Azimus September 13, 2012 1:35 PM  

@ George

You said "what's interesting is the possibility... this was a well advanced plan." I concede that, but for that to even be discussed there are only a few possibilities:

1. A baseless claim made by journalists trying to sell more papers
2. An organization claimed responsibility
3. The US has intelligence suggesting this was a planned attack


If the latter is the reality, then we already have names and locations sufficient enough to cordon off a geographical area. The point of the sweep is not to arrest the assailants, though they certainly may choose surrender. The point of the sweep is to force conflict on terms somewhat favorable to the American side.


Regardless, this is merely debating the details. The over arching point is that this cannot remain unanswered.

Anonymous WinstonWebb September 13, 2012 1:36 PM  

Finally, when you say "YOU killed out ambassador", I'm not sure who you are addressing in the "you" part. Clearly its not the state of Libya.

And how do you know this? By what they say? Surely the State of Libya would never commit subterfuge (or the U.S., for that matter...)! In any event, I meant the term "you" in an extremely broad sense to describe the whole of the nation of Libya. Translate accordingly.

So it begs the question, what are consequences of punishing the state and its peoples' infrastructure in retaliation.

The question is irrelevant. A U.S. Ambassador was murdered on Libyan soil. There is an element in Libya that dislikes the U.S. so much that it is willing to commit such an act, with approval of a not-insignificantly-sized mob. Retaliation (as we leave) is perfectly justified.

It may have benefits beyond simple revenge. As an act of deterrence, I think it's pretty clear that it will have no impact on the thoughts of militants in the middle east. Will it have an impact on getting state authorities to crack down on militants in their country? There's no good evidence that would be the case either.

"Deterrence" is a red herring. Especially when dealing with an historically irrational people. Yes, as with my use of the aforementioned "you" in reference to the Libyan nation, I am using the equally broad label "people" to refer to Libya as a whole. I would have no qualms about broadly applying the same "historically irrational people" label to every inhabitant of the Middle East.

Anonymous DarthToolpodicus September 13, 2012 1:49 PM  

Given that embassy attacks are acts of war, and that over a long period of time Nations have established that principle for very good reasons: It is LONG LONG past overdue to teach certain middle-eastern folks that this not-so-cute shell game of using "unscripted, unorganized mobs" as surrogates to provide a fig leaf of cover when they decide its time to assault embassies is no longer acceptable.

Contra George, this shit does NOT happen in these places, even Libya, without the powers-that-be permitting it to occur at some level. Never mind that host nations have a responsibility for gross security of diplomatic missions.

Libya should served with an ultimatum to fork over the perps, or face the US pulling up stakes and leveling Benghazi on the way out. As someone pointed out, the only real protection the embassies have is the threat of the iron fist under the velvet glove.

Another good solution would be do do as the Russians did in 1985 when Hezbollah kidnapped their diplomats in Beirut. The KGB and Spetznatz located and snatched several young relatives of the local Hezbollah leader. Reportedly they cut one young mans genetalia off, stuffed them in his own mouth, and left him on the doorstep of the Hezbollah leader with a note nailed to the guy's chest pointing out in no uncertain terms that more would follow if their diplomats were not returned immediately. The diplomats were returned immediately and it was a long time before any Russian diplomats were bothered.

Contra some here: Yes these folks are wildly irrational; however they also follow some simple rules: 1) Despise and harry the weak 2) Fear the strong. Smack them down hard enough, and they might run their jaws, but they will get the appropriate lesson.

Anonymous Porky? September 13, 2012 2:01 PM  

Is anybody here under the illusion that this was not the administration's goal from the beginning?

Anonymous George September 13, 2012 2:25 PM  

Azimus said:

"Regardless, this is merely debating the details. The over arching point is that this cannot remain unanswered."

I agree. I'm just not convinced that force carried out on another nation's soil is the right move given the circumstances. Now, were it determined the Libyan Govt. were behind the attack, I'd sound another tune. What I want to know is the objective of any give answer to the attack.

Finally....A newspaper making claims to sell newspapers? I can't imagine.

Anonymous George September 13, 2012 2:28 PM  

Porky wrote:

"Is anybody here under the illusion that this was not the administration's goal from the beginning?"

Yes. But I prefer the more accurate term "of the opinion".

Anonymous E. PERLINE September 13, 2012 2:46 PM  

Here's the new headline regarding stimulii for the American economy (and for bailing out Obama:)

The Fed will BUY 40 billion dollars a month of US bonds. This tremendous sale should make us happy, right?

But it isn't as if we sold them manufactured goods that are profitable to us. Our in-house loan sharks are giving us LOANS that we didn't ask for. The US is a big old fool and we will dutifully pay interest on those loans.

Thus the Fed's assets will increase and the US assets will get further inflated.

Anonymous Gen. Kong September 13, 2012 3:19 PM  

The whole business in Libya stinks to high heaven, like everything the regime is involved in. Some salient points:

1. The dead ambassador was the Lizard Queen's point man in last year's 'Springtime for Allah' production to overthrow our important ally in the global war on violent extremism, the illustrious Colonel Quaddafi, Khaddaphi or however the hell one chooses to transliterate. Stevens was a true believer in the utopian vision of making the ummah safe for feminism, sodomy and "democracy". One of the commenters over at VFR summed up the mentality of folks like Stevens in this thread.

2. The embassy was under attack for 4 hours. The security of US embassies has always been light, as noted by VDARE's Federale. Marine Guards are typically armed only with handguns. Worse, in Egypt (possibly Libya as well), live ammo is not allowed. Thus, the notion that the riot was somehow provoked by trigger-happy Marines is actually the least plausible explanation.

3. The riot was likely a cover for the operation which targeted Stevens and the staffers (including 2 Marines). The riot, of course, was Moose-limbs getting upset over a trailer for an Ed Wood-level movie about the religion of luv-n-peace endorsed by Koran-burning Rev. Terry Jones, apparently produced by an "Israeli Jew". The ADL, et al are in full-blown spin-denial of any connection to such a crude production, which is obviously the work of goyim.

4. The response of D'Won, the regime and the Ministry of Truth has been to attack Jones (who merely endorsed the movie), even having the "patriots in uniform" like Generalissimo Dempsey give Jones a call demanding the movie be scrapped for the 'safety of our people'. Condemnation of the killers has been pro-forma. The Lizard Queen even made assertions that the rioters were trying to carry Stevens to the hospital, a complete lie as can be seen in the actual pictures. Contrary to Ministry of Truth/Moose-limb claims, it was never shown in the Ummah, only here in the backwoods trailer-parks of Amurika. Looks like a nice excuse to further destroy the 1st amendment. The flag-waving, Patriot-Act DHS Repukes will no doubt lead the way.

5. Anyone remember that our old ally, the late Colonel, was planning to set up a gold-backed currency (Libyan Dinar) which was to be used as an alternative to the Banksta Bucks which are presently used for oil pricing? Qaddhafi, sitting atop one of the world's greatest oil fields, amassed a great pile of gold. What ever happened to all that gold? Did the dead ambassador knew too much about where it ended up.

Anonymous Mrs. Pilgrim September 13, 2012 3:22 PM  

Clearly its [sic] not the state of Libya.

Are you quite sure about that? Pdimov's link suggests that there was at least mid-level government involvement.

As Darthtoolpodicus pointed out above (which I think says it nicely without my need to rephrase it):

Contra George, this shit does NOT happen in these places, even Libya, without the powers-that-be permitting it to occur at some level. Never mind that host nations have a responsibility for gross security of diplomatic missions.

Blogger Nate September 13, 2012 3:25 PM  

So the Fed has announced unlimited Quantitative Easing.

holy crap...

http://www.businessinsider.com/federal-reserve-decision-2012-9#ixzz26N1gaA3O

Anonymous jack September 13, 2012 3:50 PM  

Question to the ilk. Is Vox on vacation this week or just super busy?

Anonymous Noah B. September 13, 2012 4:11 PM  

"So the Fed has announced unlimited Quantitative Easing."

They've been printing money with abandon since 2008. Looks like Jim Willie was right.

Anonymous jay c September 13, 2012 4:20 PM  

So the Fed has announced unlimited Quantitative Easing.

I hadn't seen the news, but i saw the price of metals jump this afternoon. I figured it had to be something like that.

Anonymous Dan in Texas September 13, 2012 4:36 PM  

I don't pretend to have knowledge of all the details of what happened in the Libya incident but I find the whole narrative troubling. From what I have read/heard, the narrative is as follows: An Israeli Jew real estate developer who plead guilty at some point in the past of bank fraud, garners up enough contributors to spend several million dollars to produce a You Tube video. (Several million to produce a YouTube video?) Then some imam somewhere happens to discover this video (what was he typing in when he was looking for it? "Ah, let me see, I'll google cut rate videos insulting the prophet!") Then said imam whips up a mob who just happen to be armed with RPG's and other weapons (hmmmmm, wonder where they got those from? Oh yeah that's right, we armed the little darlings when they were going after Gaddafi) and attack the embassy. All of this falling in line after several failed attempts to pass measures giving the government control over the internet (which Obama just said to heck with and signed an executive order giving him the power to do that very thing). Perhaps when the attempts to garner support for internet regulation in the name of defending the poor entertainment conglomerates and their copy write laws failed, something more drastic needed to happen.

Anonymous Kickass September 13, 2012 4:53 PM  

Ahhhhh, Vox buddy......you alive? Your not being waterboarded are you? If so, give em hell!

Anonymous Kickass September 13, 2012 5:00 PM  

No George, illusion is the correct word.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera September 13, 2012 5:02 PM  

Nate,

Does that change your plans at all? It seems they aren't content to wait for destruction.

Anonymous Porky? September 13, 2012 5:02 PM  

Wonder if he was killed with the weapons we gave them.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera September 13, 2012 5:04 PM  

jack,

He mentioned some stuff was going on with the book, but his blog output has still been pretty consistent (~1.5 posts/day). Maybe we can all get a life now.

j/k

Anonymous Noah B. September 13, 2012 5:17 PM  

"Question to the ilk. Is Vox on vacation this week or just super busy?"

Maybe he's finally getting around to starting up that new biotech company he's been talking about.

Anonymous Kickass September 13, 2012 5:35 PM  

Holy crap indeed. I am considering heading for the bunker.

Blogger ajw308 September 13, 2012 5:57 PM  

Maybe he's finally getting around to starting up that new biotech company he's been talking about.
He and Markku may be getting ready to release the beta of Evil Cats.

Anonymous Anonymous September 13, 2012 6:03 PM  

http://moneymorning.com/ob/bill-gross-normal-economic-growth-impossible-now/

Anonymous jack September 13, 2012 6:07 PM  

Aeoli Pera

Get a life now? Don't count on it.

Anonymous zen0 September 13, 2012 8:33 PM  

Did the dead ambassador knew too much about where it ended up.

I like the way you think, General.

Have you heard of the 3 Saudi Princes that funded the 9/11 attack and how they all got disappeared soon thereafter? One of them owned a horse that won a Kentucky Derby.


Three Stooges Get Wasted

Blogger James Higham September 13, 2012 8:33 PM  

The EU and the nation state leaders propping it up are living in heavy denial.

Anonymous Gen. Kong September 13, 2012 9:27 PM  

ajw308:
He and Markku may be getting ready to release the beta of Evil Cats.

Damn! I was really hoping for Nazi War-Dinosaurs. I guess Eeeeeviiil Cats will be OK.

Blogger James Dixon September 13, 2012 10:08 PM  

> The occupants of the Middle East are historically irrational. I see no indication that will change any time in the near future. Therefore, escalating violence will do nothing to resolve the situation.

Do I really need to point out that killing them all would?

Anonymous The other skeptic September 13, 2012 10:09 PM  

"Such a poor thinker. The correct solution is to lay waste to Benghazi." tos

Aren't there a bunch of innocent women and children that live there?


I wonder who in our first black president's regime thought to say, when Ruby Ridge and Waco were being discussed:

Aren't there a bunch of innocent American women and children that live there? Should we really burn them alive or shoot them in the back?

Anonymous Azimus September 13, 2012 10:37 PM  

James Dixon September 13, 2012 10:08 PM
The occupants of the Middle East are historically irrational. I see no indication that will change any time in the near future. Therefore, escalating violence will do nothing to resolve the situation.

Do I really need to point out that killing them all would


I got a good laugh from that one. Thanks James Dixon, you made my day.

Anonymous Anonymous September 13, 2012 11:29 PM  

I think we need to come up with a scenario to explain Vox's absence.

Here's my theory.

He, the lovely SB and their progeny are currently sneaking back into the US, while trying to avoid being groped by the TSA.

On Sunday, Vox will announce that because of the tremendous void/vacuum of leadership and ideas exhibited by Obummer and Willard, because the USA needs an alternative choice,and because Dr. Paul has decided not to pursue a third party run. Vox will announce that he is running for President as a nationalist Christian Libertarian. He's anti-free trade, anti-immigration, pro-gun, pro-life, and pro-business. He will publicly call out Bernake? and Krugman as charlatans and hacks.

He will push for a return to sound money and radically cutting the size of government by 75 percent, including returning the armed forces to within the borders of the USA.

BTW, SB would be the most smoking hot first lady, evveerrr!!!

That's my theory, what's yours???


farmer Tom

Anonymous Jerome September 13, 2012 11:32 PM  

No new posts in over 24 hours? What a rip off! If I have to pay Vox $49.99 a month to access this dang website then I expect new material daily.

Anonymous Anonymous September 13, 2012 11:35 PM  

That's the problem Jerome. I have not received your check this month, so your connection was turned off.

As soon as I get your check, I'll tell Vox to let you in on the new stuff. Until then, no new stuff for you.


Vox's bill collector

Blogger IM2L844 September 13, 2012 11:51 PM  

That's my theory, what's yours???

I'm hoping it's nothing more serious than Vox experiencing some temporary flabbergastration over the latest QE-3 scheme to steal money from the proletariats and give it to the fraudulent investment banking speculators.

Anonymous rho September 14, 2012 12:37 AM  

"That's my theory, what's yours??? "

He has better things to do.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera September 14, 2012 1:37 AM  

He has better things to do.

Those superviruses don't engineer themselves. Er, wait...

Anonymous Aeoli Pera September 14, 2012 1:39 AM  

If it's serious I'm sure Spacebunny will let us know. That way, we're free to speculate in poor taste.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza September 14, 2012 3:12 AM  

What a ruined week: endless stateside authority worship, more QE, the American media's obsessions with the middle east. This is about as bad as last summer being ruined by debt theatre.

Anonymous Pointy shoe sniffer September 14, 2012 3:16 AM  

*Sniff* goodbye Vox..*sniff*..you were a fine chap..,we'll miss you..I raise an umbrellaed drink in your honor.. sniff..

Anonymous B September 14, 2012 4:25 AM  

@ Okrahead: What are the banking families going to do this time without the US to stop the Germans?

Blogger LP 999/Eliza September 14, 2012 5:27 AM  

Nah, he's probably busy with a big wiring project, goals etc.

Anonymous Luke September 14, 2012 6:56 AM  

Highly OT but interesting... Chart showing evolution of wives' share of income in marriage in the US since 1970:

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2012/09/chart-says-no-it-not-end-men-yet/56847/

Anonymous jack September 14, 2012 7:15 AM  

The Missing Vox:

Look on the positive side: We, the Ilk and near-ilk, get to use this posting as we please. Apparently no monitoring is going on. What a deal? I expect the comments to get over a 1000. I'm racking my brain to come up with all the things I could never say before.

Pure speculation:
VD has many contacts. He and the family are hunkered down in their prepared 'safe' place. He has heard very reliable intel that the time has come for the final solution to the USA problem. The Manchurian candidate has done his work; the PTB are all ready to go somewhere they think is safe, where they can enjoy their promised rewards for destroying us. I suspect, like most if not all, persons that pull off the really big frauds and political nastiness they will be disposed of to avoid any future embarrassments.

Lets see; what else?

Anonymous Anonymous September 14, 2012 7:40 AM  

A massive Warmouse recall?

Blogger Nate September 14, 2012 7:51 AM  

He totally should've left me the keys before he left. We could spruce this place up a bit...

Anonymous pdimov September 14, 2012 7:51 AM  

Consulate attack planned as 2-part militant assault, Libyan official says

Anonymous VryeDenker September 14, 2012 8:02 AM  

Buy nice shoes at www.totallynotgonnaripyouoff.com

Anonymous Josh September 14, 2012 8:17 AM  

Cheaprussianwives.biz

Anonymous Anonymous September 14, 2012 8:30 AM  

www.littlepaperumbrellas.com

Anonymous IHeart45s September 14, 2012 8:31 AM  

Gun question.
Is there any round gayer than the .25acp?

Anonymous tdm September 14, 2012 8:33 AM  

voxday has become a part of my life I don't want to lose. It counters almost all of the idiotic speech I see and hear. Vox is the one site that never bores.

Anonymous jm September 14, 2012 8:37 AM  

Perhaps he is occupied with certain recent photographs of Princess Catherine.

Anonymous Mrs. Pilgrim September 14, 2012 8:39 AM  

My theory is that SB was kidnapped and taken to an alternate dimension. Vox and Markku were hard at work on Wednesday to build a teleporter, and yesterday, Vox proceeded to follow her. There he discovered a land straight out of an LSD trip, a hellish place full of carnivorous reptiles and fungal horrors, all desirous of nothing else but consuming any human being they encountered.

Spying a fortress in the distance, Vox bravely battled his way to it. Therein he discovered a loathsome dragon, whom he slew, and raced into the prison room--but only to discover that his deductive skills led him amiss; it was not SB, but another poor soul, one wearing an incredibly stupid hat. The liberated prisoner advised him of a more likely location where SB was held, and Vox set forth again.

Seven times has he met with disappointment, and now he is approaching the eighth stronghold of evil--yet ringing in his ears are the repeated refrains of freed prisoners, words that have frustrated and enraged him:

"Thank you, Vox! But your princess is in another castle!"

Anonymous DonReynolds September 14, 2012 9:21 AM  

Whew! There is nothing wrong with my computer. Homeland inSecurity has not blocked me (yet). Vox has simply stepped out of his room. That would be good actually. He should come up for some fresh air and sunshine this time of year.

I am sure we all hope he has not been in an auto accident, which can happen to even the brightest and best drivers in Italy. We all hope he is well and those around him are equally fortunate. When he starts posting again, everyone will be glad. If he is too sick to type, all I can say is....get well soon.....we need you.

Blogger IM2L844 September 14, 2012 9:27 AM  

Probably just one of his behavioral observation experiments. I'm not getting worried yet, but I think I'll go ahead and send a prayer anyway...just in case.

Anonymous Josh September 14, 2012 9:34 AM  

Vox has simply stepped out of his room. That would be good actually. He should come up for some fresh air and sunshine this time of year.

I'm highly skeptical of that...

Anonymous Curlytop September 14, 2012 9:39 AM  

I'm detecting an air of mild panic sweeping this blog. If he doesn't surface to comment on the Vikings, we may have a problem, people. Perhaps Vox's original absence has been trumped w the latest global developments and the Day Clan has initiated their SHTF Bug Out plan. We would be wise to follow suit...

God Speed, our intrepid AWCA!!!

Blogger Nate September 14, 2012 9:41 AM  

"Gun question.
Is there any round gayer than the .25acp?"

Yes.

9mm

Blogger Vidad, AKA David the Good September 14, 2012 9:54 AM  

You know... this would be a good time to talk about gardening again. Anyone got something planned for Fall?

I'll be giving a talk to a Ladies Organic Gardening Group about long-term perennial food crops at the beginning of next month.

And... I re-launched (at long last, and seriously this time) my survival gardening site here: www.floridasurvivalgardening.com

(This post will self-destruct in 3...2... )

Anonymous RINO September 14, 2012 9:58 AM  

If he misses his column and fantasy football post on Monday then we can worry.

But 1 day?

Anonymous duckman September 14, 2012 9:59 AM  

Josh
September 14, 2012 9:34 AM

Vox has simply stepped out of his room. That would be good actually. He should come up for some fresh air and sunshine this time of year.

I'm highly skeptical of that...


Fresh air and sunshine? Internet superintelligences don't need no stinkin' fresh air and sunshine.



I do hope and pray he is okay.

Anonymous Josh September 14, 2012 10:00 AM  

The royal boobs are terrible. She needs a boob job

Anonymous Stilicho September 14, 2012 10:01 AM  

He totally should've left me the keys before he left. We could spruce this place up a bit...

Doesn't Markku have keys...and a price?

Anonymous The other skeptic September 14, 2012 10:05 AM  


Highly OT but interesting... Chart showing evolution of wives' share of income in marriage in the US since 1970:

The lowdown on women's vs men's wages


This infatuation with affirmative action for women will end at some stage.

Blogger Joshua_D September 14, 2012 10:06 AM  

Vidad, AKA David the Good September 14, 2012 9:54 AM

You know... this would be a good time to talk about gardening again. Anyone got something planned for Fall?

I'll be giving a talk to a Ladies Organic Gardening Group about long-term perennial food crops at the beginning of next month.


Have you heard of Back to Eden. I would recommend everyone take time to watch this film. I hope to get preparations underway this Fall to be ready for planting in the Spring.

http://backtoedenfilm.com/

Anonymous The other skeptic September 14, 2012 10:07 AM  


"Gun question.
Is there any round gayer than the .25acp?"

Yes.

9mm


You mean 9mm Kurz?

At the end of the day, to a dead person, it does not matter how gay the round was.

Blogger Vidad, AKA David the Good September 14, 2012 10:12 AM  

@ Joshua_D

Yes - Back to Eden was impressive. Deep mulching creates amazing soil. I did something similar in TN and had great results. That is, before the Great Flood tore out my back yard.

Blogger Vidad, AKA David the Good September 14, 2012 10:15 AM  

What zone are you in, Joshua_D? What's your rainfall look like?

If you start right now, you can get a really good start on spring. Stack the organic matter. Mow a patch of lawn or use your existing garden space, drop a thick layer of cardboard/newspapers, then wet it really well. Then put gras clippings, wet leaves, rotten straw, manure, etc., with a layer of mulch on top. That kills all the weeds beneath and encourages worms to come in and till for you. The soil gets really, really soft and workable... and the dirt beneath it all will be transformed into incredible loam over a couple of years. This is the "lasagna gardening" or "Ruth Stout" method and it works like a charm. Just don't ever till it all under. That takes you back to ground zero.

Blogger Vidad, AKA David the Good September 14, 2012 10:16 AM  

And boy... it is weird not to hear from Vox. I pray the family is okay.

Blogger Giraffe September 14, 2012 10:27 AM  

@ Vidad: I planted some blueberries that walmart had on clearance. Don't know if they will make it or not, but a couple are greening up and a couple look pretty weak. My cherry three has about three leaves. Thinking I should build a few raised beds every year.

As for the .25 acp, this quote is often attributed to Colonel Cooper "... carry a 25 if it makes you feel good, but do not ever load it. If you load it you may shoot it. If you shoot it you may hit somebody, and if you hit somebody - and he finds out about it - he may be very angry with you."

Anonymous jack September 14, 2012 10:28 AM  

Gun question.
Is there any round gayer than the .25acp?

I vote for .22 short

Anonymous jack September 14, 2012 10:34 AM  

I just finished tilling up the garden from the spring and summer crops. The only thing left producing are the okra plants. Here in the south okra grows about like cudsu.

Now, for the fall planting. The other half has already purchased the some of the fall Brussels sprouts, carrots, broccoli, an experiment with rhubarb, and how could we forget the chard.

I have dutifully collected the chicken do do all summer and spread it so everything should be really happy.

Blogger Vidad, AKA David the Good September 14, 2012 10:36 AM  

@Giraffe

Blueberries are hard to kill, provided the soil is acid enough. They really don't like weeds, though, since the roots are really shallow. Don't let grass get close to them. Mulch 'em like mad.

I like raised beds in general. I think I may soon cut a few 55 gal drums in half and make some tall circular containers for bigger plants. If I fill the bottom with all our paper and cardboard trash for a month or so, soak it down, then make a planting layer on top of that it'll save buying expensive amendments or using too much precious compost...

Blogger Vidad, AKA David the Good September 14, 2012 10:38 AM  

@jack

Yeah... okra is incredible here. Wish I liked it. I do plant its little-known cousin - "Florida Cranberry." My wife uses the calyxes for cranberry sauce at Thanksgiving. Bonus: the leaves are edible in salads or as a cooked green. I need to do a post on that plant before too long.

Blogger Vidad, AKA David the Good September 14, 2012 10:39 AM  

Florida Cranberry: http://floridagardener.com/DNN/FGGardenBlog/tabid/59/EntryID/53/Default.aspx

Anonymous Josh September 14, 2012 10:41 AM  

Question for the gardening/farming/Hobbit ilk:

I will probably be looking to buy a house with some land in the next three years.

How much acreage will I need to raise a couple of cows, maybe a dozen chickens, and some gardens?

Also, what are important criteria for site selection?

Anonymous George September 14, 2012 10:42 AM  

Skeptic Wrote:

"This infatuation with affirmative action for women will end at some stage."

Why would anyone employer (or economy) in their right minds want to see a diminishing of the talent pool?

Anonymous Salt September 14, 2012 10:46 AM  

I bet Vox is patiently still waiting for his order at the KFC.

Anonymous Josh September 14, 2012 10:50 AM  

Why would anyone employer (or economy) in their right minds want to see a diminishing of the talent pool?

What talents do the majority of women bring to the labor force?

Anonymous Jerome September 14, 2012 11:01 AM  

"I have not received your check this month, so your connection was turned off." - Vox's bill collector, Sept. 13, 11:35pm


But I have my receipt right here. Though I admit I thought it was a little odd that Vox's subscription service runs off some internet address in Kyrgyzstan, and that I had to provide two credit card numbers, primary and secondary bank account numbers, my Social Security number, and sign a digital power of attorney. But I figure it's for Vox so it has to be legit, right?

Blogger Vidad, AKA David the Good September 14, 2012 11:10 AM  

@Josh

If you want cows, the acreage certainly goes up. It depends on climate, though. If you were in Costa Rica you'd have constant year-round pasture. If in New Hampshire... forget that. You'd be having to store half the year's feed at least. We had goats for a while and found them easy to care for... but a pain to feed without more greenery. Not enough land to properly manage them and all the fruit trees, etc.

My top criteria would be:

Water access (good rainfall for cisterns or a creek/pond on site)
Mild climate (year-round growing FTW)
Purchasable flat-out (debt is a curse)
Safety from flooding
Good surrounding demographics
Closeness to family/very good friends
In a home-school oriented state

After that, I'd want decent soil. If uncleared land locally is loaded with a variety of trees, that's a good sign. If it's just pines and palmettos, you're probably dealing with nutrient-deficient soil.

I actually like small plots of land because they're workable. I have one intensively-managed acre and it's barely touching its potential at this point. Creating food forests is a the long-term way to have food security and avoid the toil of annual gardening.

Check out this wild system in Vietnam: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5ZgzwoQ-ao

Someone else may know more about cows.

Anonymous Noah B. September 14, 2012 11:12 AM  

@Josh

Where are you located and how many people do you expect to be providing for?

Anonymous Josh September 14, 2012 11:14 AM  

I'm in middle Tennessee

Anonymous patrick kelly September 14, 2012 11:15 AM  

Someone could start breaking the blog rules all willy nilly or push some of SB's buttons to lure her out, but I'm not volunteering.

Anonymous Josh September 14, 2012 11:15 AM  

Probably just myself and my future wife, with plans for five kids.

Anonymous jay c September 14, 2012 11:15 AM  

Question for the gardening/farming/Hobbit ilk:

I will probably be looking to buy a house with some land in the next three years.

How much acreage will I need to raise a couple of cows, maybe a dozen chickens, and some gardens?

Also, what are important criteria for site selection?


Hi, Josh.

Cows take a lot of space. If you want a couple of cows, then I'd say you need at least 5 acres unless you plan on using a lot of fertilizer and herbicides and/or feeding hay. You might want to consider goats or sheep instead. You don't need much space at all for chickens. As for gardening, you can grow a lot of food on a 1/2 acre.

Good soil is necessary for effective gardening. Less so for cows. Much less so for chickens. Fortunately, if you rotate crops and livestock without a lot of chemicals, chickens and cows both improve the soil.

Disclaimers: I'm not a farmer or rancher, but I've worked on a ranch and currently live on one. I have a garden most years, but usually just to supplement the groceries.

Anonymous Daniel September 14, 2012 11:16 AM  

Josh
How much acreage will I need to raise a couple of cows, maybe a dozen chickens, and some gardens?


Also, what are important criteria for site selection?


Dairy cows, beef or hybrids? Chickens are irrelevant to acreage - you can raise 'em on a half acre lot if you really want to. But if you are going to do a dozen, just order 50 from Murray McMurray (if you are in the states) or a place like that. There's really no difference except for the number of nesting boxes, esp. if you let them forage to reduce feed costs. The company you order from should be able to give you a lot of good ongoing advice on raising, feeding and housing them.

For cattle, a half acre lot is way plenty if you are serious about keeping it two or three cows. Egads, the big lots cram those puppies in like sardines nowadays.

What might be nice, though, is to self-contain the acreage: have enough land to cut, rake and bale your own hay and if you are talking about just the two cows, a half acre will get you through the winter if you have them. If you don't, just have an alfalfa field that you can keep them out of on a rotational basis, to keep it fresh.

I recommend a lot for a few hogs and another for goats. That way what you don't mulch can get eaten for fertilizer - plus you have meat and cheese (if you like goat cheese: I do.) On septic, you really don't want a garbage disposal.

Anonymous Curlytop September 14, 2012 11:16 AM  

Josh September 14, 2012 10:50 AM
Why would anyone employer (or economy) in their right minds want to see a diminishing of the talent pool?

What talents do the majority of women bring to the labor force?


Being a quiet observer of office dynamics during my brief job history before marriage, I noted that most women tended to serve one or a combination of three roles in the workforce: The "mommy," "The Bitch", or the "whore."

Anonymous Anonymous September 14, 2012 11:23 AM  

Nate, even a 9mm +P?

Anonymous No_Limit_Bubba™ September 14, 2012 11:23 AM  

It is strange for Vox to break from regular posting...especially after a Vikings win.

Anonymous Anonymous September 14, 2012 11:29 AM  

I was hoping Vox would comment on the new Spielberg movie about Lincoln.

Anonymous jack September 14, 2012 11:31 AM  

Josh
How much acreage will I need to raise a couple of cows, maybe a dozen chickens, and some gardens?

We maintain a flock of about 25 to 30 chickens. They are let out each morning to free range in the yard and within the first several yards of the woodline and down to the creek. They put themselves up at night and we close and lock the hen house to keep out the predators. We are lucky to have a dog that gets along well with the chicks [won't eat them] and she barks a good game [otherwise a total coward and she is part pitbull...go figure].
McMurray is a good hatchery. They ship via the postal service. Note that fresh hatched chicks are good on food for about three days; a bit less on water. When the post office calls you go right then, get them and have their tub or whatever ready with plenty of water and feed. Try to use non medicated chick starter for the first several months. Its sort of OK to have them vaccinated for cocci, mareks and maybe bronchitis. Now, that bronchitis stuff can sometimes cause more problems than it helps. We've decided to not vaccinate for bronchitis again. By all means let the chickens free range if you can. You end up with near organic birds [eggs etc.] that way. And, happy chickens. Plan on about one nest box per 5 birds. And be sure they always have a lot of clean water. Lack of water can kill a bird very quickly.

More info...plenty on net.

We are thinking about goats and maybe a cow. The holdup is not acreage, rather the cost of fencing. Around here there are coyotes and fox and some disreputable dogs so fencing is almost mandatory.

Anonymous Wendy September 14, 2012 11:41 AM  

Woohoo gardening talk! All we have right now is our second story deck, but I've been having fun growing tomatoes and flowers and experimenting/practicing collecting seeds. And the in-laws just bought 20 acres so I can pass info on to them.

Anonymous RINO September 14, 2012 11:43 AM  

His last post was about banks and courts.

They probably came for him finally.

Anonymous Wendy September 14, 2012 11:45 AM  

Oh, and if you see decent prices on meat in the coming months in colder climate areas (I don't know how it is in warmer climates), stock up now. It's because feed is going to be really expensive because of the drought and farmers aren't keeping much stock over the winter. So meat's going to get more expensive in the near future - more so than it already is.

Anonymous Noah B. September 14, 2012 11:47 AM  

@Josh

I don't have any experience with farming or ranching in Tennessee, but in Oklahoma and Texas, 1 acre per head of cattle is a good rule of thumb.

You're either talking about spending a lot of money to get set up to care for cattle or doing a ton of work. You'll need to build and repair fences, seed seasonal grasses, irrigate, buy hay (or bale it, for which you'll need a tractor and baler), and keep them provided with fresh drinking water.

For chickens, I recommend a chicken coop rather than trying to let them free graze, unless you have someone to stand guard constantly against coyotes, birds of prey, snakes, etc.

For gardening, I like David's forest permaculture approach but am hesitant to rely on it completely. A few drawbacks: it takes years to establish, the trees can't be moved with you if you are forced to relocate, and from what I can tell, the productivity is less than that of traditional grain farming. A mix of the two methods is probably a good way to go for long term sustainable farming.

Anonymous Kickass September 14, 2012 11:47 AM  

Ok, calvists rule, free trade is awesome and equal right for women and some breeds of cats. Do....not...panic....head.to bunker.......stop.checking blog...

Blogger Laramie Hirsch September 14, 2012 11:48 AM  

No daily post for two days...hope all is well.

-LaramieHirsch

Blogger Vidad, AKA David the Good September 14, 2012 11:50 AM  

@Wendy

Have them plant fruit/nut trees ASAP. They're the best long-term food investment you can make.

@Josh

I used to live in Middle TN. Smyrna, specifically. Good dirt there, though full of rocks. People complained a lot about the clay but it softened up and became amazing when I sheet mulched it for a couple of years.

Are you familiar with a church called "Priest Lake Christian Fellowship" in Antioch? That's where I used to attend... and I'll be back to visit next month for their yearly bonfire party. (Which takes place at one member's organic blueberry U-Pick.) Good church, for the most part. A lot of homeschoolers. As for 5 kids, that's a good start. I'm at 6 now and I think we've easily got time for another 6 yet.

I think if I had my choice of TN land, I'd move further out into the foothills towards the East side. The floods, the deteriorating demographics and the lack of rainfall during key times were all a pain.

Anonymous Noah B. September 14, 2012 11:50 AM  

"They are let out each morning to free range in the yard and within the first several yards of the woodline and down to the creek. They put themselves up at night and we close and lock the hen house to keep out the predators."

I used to do that, too. Now if I let the chickens or quail out, there is a hawk there eating them in minutes. In a survival situation the solution to this problem is trivial, though.

Anonymous Noah B. September 14, 2012 11:52 AM  

Another tip -- anyone into farming things like tomatoes should check into a drip irrigation system. Even if you only have a dozen or so plants, putting in a trip system will save you a ton of time over the course of just one season.

Blogger Vidad, AKA David the Good September 14, 2012 11:52 AM  

@Noah B.

"it takes years to establish, the trees can't be moved with you if you are forced to relocate, and from what I can tell, the productivity is less than that of traditional grain farming. A mix of the two methods is probably a good way to go for long term sustainable farming."

The inputs are also a lot less than traditional grain farming. The system becomes self-sustaining over time as a closed loop, provided you plan well by adding the right balance of trees. I still grow corn, though - but old grain corn varieties. Hickory King dent corn did killer well in TN. And the stalks were huge: plenty of compost.

Anonymous Noah B. September 14, 2012 11:58 AM  

Don't get me wrong, I love fruit and nut trees. But like investing, it's best to diversify a bit.

Ironically, I had the best corn crop this year that I've ever had. I fed it all with a drip system, changed to old grain varieties as well, and totally avoided using Seven on it, and I still had far fewer worm problems than in the past. Yellow Dent is just too susceptible to pests for it to be a good choice for most small growers, I think.

Anonymous Noah B. September 14, 2012 12:00 PM  

Oops... Sevin

Blogger Good Will September 14, 2012 12:14 PM  

Wow. No Vox. No Spacebunny. For two days. Makes one wonder.

Has Vox finally run out of important things to say?

There are not many people I'd give a damn about if they died. (Even in my own extended family!) For all the good he does, Vox is one of few I'd really hate to see go.

My prayers are with you and yours, Vox (just in case).

Anonymous jack September 14, 2012 12:14 PM  

Josh
How much acreage will I need to raise a couple of cows, maybe a dozen chickens, and some gardens?

More thoughts: Ref. to coops above. Yes, predators can be a problem. We had one chicken killed by a hawk. Chigger, the dog, actually ran off the hawk before it could dine. The chicken lived for about two hours but our best efforts could not save her. Our best layer, too.

With our dog predators are almost not a problem. We're not fools about it, though. The hen house is overbuilt and the containment runs are protected by shock wire and overhead netting. I say containment with qualifications. You have to sometimes lock up chicks in a contained area. Free range as much as possible. Our contained areas are spacious indeed. Most people that see the setup wonder why we even free range. The reasons are obvious. Animals are not meant to be locked up. They are much happier on the range and far more healthy. Of course, your situation may not allow that.

Notes on chicken health:

We use, almost always, natural remedies with the exception of the initial vaccinations as young chicks. By the way, if you should have to use human made medi's after a layer is laying always wait at least three weeks after ending those meds before eating the eggs again or the chicken.

Apple cider vinegar in their water...boosts the immune system. Use
about ore or two caps per 1 gallon waterier.

Powdered Garlic for worming. Worm about twice a year. Mix the
garlic in chick starter to get the birds to ear it.

Powdered olive leaf for viral issues; mix with starter.

Black walnut powder for more serious infections. Order off net.
Use sparingly. Mix with starter.

Diatomaceous earth for mites. Use food grade only. Get at the
co-op and spread on their earth bath areas that they dig.
Also, this same earth sprinkled on the hen house straw
does a fine job of fly control. If needed, hand dust each
bird with this.

A chicken should have a medium deep red cone without any pale areas. Anything else is a sign of problems. They should also not look scruffy and should seem alert with tail feathers perked up.

Chickens love water melon. They also love bits of bread thrown at them. But go light on the bread, particularly with active layers.
They love crushed crackers. They will eat frogs, lizards, rats, etc.
Yeah, I did not believe it either till I started keeping chickens.

I may post more as it occurs to me....

Anonymous George September 14, 2012 12:15 PM  

Josh asked:

"
What talents do the majority of women bring to the labor force?"

The same as men, at least where certain physical requirements are of no concern.

Anonymous Femme Fatale September 14, 2012 12:17 PM  

Josh asked:

"
What talents do the majority of women bring to the labor force?"

The same as men, at least where certain physical requirements are of no concern.
- George

You make me laugh George.
Keep it up!

Anonymous Dan in Tx September 14, 2012 12:25 PM  

"Notes on chicken health..."

Words I would have never imagined being a topic on Vox Popoli

Anonymous Mrs. Pilgrim September 14, 2012 12:36 PM  

Oh my gosh, I'm going to be cutting and pasting from this thread later.

Oh, for those interested in growing pecans more northerly: My research indicates they don't fare well. However, there's a hickory-pecan hybrid (the hican) that should work a treat; it just takes several years to mature.

I'm just vexed that the Pilgrims aren't going to be migrating back to Pilgrimville, Pointsnorth, for a couple of years. Nobody there hires people from out of state, even if it's made clear that we're not looking for relocation assistance.

Anonymous RC September 14, 2012 12:45 PM  

"For cattle, a half acre lot is way plenty if you are serious about keeping it two or three cows. Egads, the big lots cram those puppies in like sardines nowadays."

Though it depends on the area, fertility, and so forth, this is not good advice. I run a 120 cow/calf operation using rotational grazing on 400 acres in NW Missouri and it's at capacity. If you're just wanting a milk cow, you might be okay on less but keep this in mind: Milk cows must be milked every day. When you get animals like this, you really tie yourself to the land and it makes it very hard to vacation.

Hay equipment is very expensive as is hay. You'll be better off buying it and, hopefully, in TN you won't have too much of a feed window.

If you want to raise your own beef, just go to a livestock auction or a local rancher and buy a young steer or heifer. You can often get a young imperfect animal (or one where the cow died at birth or just abandoned her calf - it happens) for almost nothing. Bottle feed it and supplement ASAP. Feed it out to 1200 pounds and then you're done with about 550 to 600 pounds of beef. It'll last you a year or more. If you need to leave for a few days, no big deal as long as you have a strong fence.

Still, this is more of a food quality decision than a cost-savings decision.

Blogger Vidad, AKA David the Good September 14, 2012 1:01 PM  

@jack

Could I post your "chicken health" comment on my site?

If yes, and if you want better crediting or a link to a site of your own, e-mail me: david (at) goodmanshow.com.

Anonymous RC September 14, 2012 1:02 PM  

"We are thinking about goats and maybe a cow. The holdup is not acreage, rather the cost of fencing. Around here there are coyotes and fox and some disreputable dogs so fencing is almost mandatory."

No fence that's cost-effective will keep predators out of pasture. On the other hand, a cheap electric fence will keep the cattle in if it's installed correctly and you have sufficent food inside the fence, at least for all but a hard-nosed bull or really stubborn cow. There is no need to worry about small-fry predators with cattle unless you're raising a small calf without its mama. Coyotes will sometimes attack a small calf if it gets separated from its mama by getting through a fence that the cow can't get through, but that's rare. Mountain lions are a different story but if you have mountain lions, there's nothing you can do anyway.

Anonymous Mrs. Pilgrim September 14, 2012 1:13 PM  

Feed it out to 1200 pounds and then you're done with about 550 to 600 pounds of beef.

What would you recommend as a storage method? I've never had much luck freezing beef for more than three months.

Anonymous hood September 14, 2012 1:13 PM  

"What talents do the majority of women bring to the labor force?"

The same ones on display when you go on a date.

"Is there any round gayer than the .25acp?"

Any caliber that you don't have with you.

Blogger Giraffe September 14, 2012 1:14 PM  

@Josh.

If you are doing it for meat goats or rabbits are another option. Almost no space requirements, and rabbit meat is very healthy. They don't take heat well, though.

I have 15 acres. I have my own 100 yard rifle range, my own bowhunting spot, a garden, chickens, and enough unused space to have a few cows, if I ever get around to it.

Jack, have you ever tried fermented feed for chickens?

Anonymous Mrs. Pilgrim September 14, 2012 1:23 PM  

Josh: "What talents do the majority of women bring to the labor force?"

George: "The same as men, at least where certain physical requirements are of no concern."


That's exactly right. In those jobs that require no physical labor, no use of the brain, and no corporeal presence, women are equal in performance to men.

Anonymous Stingray September 14, 2012 1:24 PM  

I'm sorry to ever take the subject away from farming and gardening, but I just was sent this over email and since this has turned into a bit of an open thread:

And all y'all thought that churches were losing their touch with the bible. Psssh.

I, too, send out well wishes and concern for Vox and the family. Hope every one is well there.

Anonymous JohnS September 14, 2012 1:31 PM  

David, you ever check out Paul Wheaton's permaculture site? He's got a youtube channel too, with a bunch of related topics: building rocket mass heaters, raising chickens, building cheap (really cheap) homes, hugelkulture garden beds, ect...

Jack Spirko's Survival Podcast is a really good gardening resource, too. It's where I first heard of permaculture (and 1st heard Wheaton interviewed). I'll admit to having done a lot more listening and reading than actual hands-on work, but the topic is really interesting. Currently most of our gardening is in self-watering containers from Lowe's :)

Anonymous Anonymous September 14, 2012 1:32 PM  

Mrs. Pilgrim,

"What would you recommend as a storage method? I've never had much luck freezing beef for more than three months.

We get a beef and two hogs as part of my wages.

We have never had freezer issues unless we go past a year.

So I'm not sure what you mean.

My bosses wife pressure cans a lot of meat each year. Cut the meat into pieces, put in jars, and pressure can it.

She like is because it is not frozen, so meal prep time is virtually nothing. Dump a jar of already cooked meat into a pot with a few vegetables, and stew takes only as long as cooking the fresh vegetables.

farmer Tom

Anonymous Anonymous September 14, 2012 1:32 PM  

Josh, I'll address your question later.

farmer Tom

Anonymous Wendy September 14, 2012 1:32 PM  

Have them plant fruit/nut trees ASAP. They're the best long-term food investment you can make.

They plan to, especially since around here an apple orchard can also fill the freezer with venison.

Anonymous RC September 14, 2012 1:35 PM  

"What would you recommend as a storage method? I've never had much luck freezing beef for more than three months."

With a good chest deep freezer, you should be fine for a year+, especially for large roasts. The freeze/thaw cycle on auto-defrost refrigerator/freezers is hard on anything. We just had a crockpot roast that was harvested 2 years ago (the wife overlooked) and it was excellent.

Anonymous Stingray September 14, 2012 1:36 PM  

Mrs. Pilgrim,

I hear wonderful things about FoodSavers.

Anonymous RC September 14, 2012 1:41 PM  

"They plan to, especially since around here an apple orchard can also fill the freezer with venison."

Pear trees are also excellent venison producers. I recommend one with a clear shooting lane at 150 yards.

Anonymous Mrs. Pilgrim September 14, 2012 1:42 PM  

The freeze/thaw cycle on auto-defrost refrigerator/freezers is hard on anything.

This might be causing the problem. We may have to replace ours.

Of course, it could also be the incredibly poor-quality meat that was (is?) being foisted on us recently. But I'll look at the book on my freezer and see if the auto-defrost function applies. Thanks!

Blogger Kentucky Packrat September 14, 2012 1:55 PM  

What would you recommend as a storage method? I've never had much luck freezing beef for more than three months.

The rest have already mentioned turning off auto-defrosters. A good chest freezer with no defroster makes a big deal here.

Also, look at vacuum-packed meat, instead of plastic tubing or freezer paper. A good vacuum bag in a chest should last a year or more without too much problem.

Anonymous MendoScot September 14, 2012 2:16 PM  

Bookmarked your site, Vidad.

Being antipodal I've just finished with the winter lemon harvest, and I'm watching my tomatoes, peaches and raspberries set while the herbs are coming along just nicely. I lost the basil (and a couple of the tomato plants) to an unexpected hard freeze late last autumn, and I'm trying parsley, peppers and rucula (the wife's a fan) for the first time. What I've repeatedly failed to get going - from clippings - is rosemary.

For the beef- outsource. Friends here get together and buy an animal for splitting between three or four people. For a small share, the farmer will usually do the butchering for you and, believe me, the gauchos leave very little unused.

A question for those who use drip irrigation - above or below ground? At 33°S and 2000' our summer sun is pretty intense.

Anonymous MendoScot September 14, 2012 2:20 PM  

And ditto the comments on the auto-defrost. Serious problems with preservation and health risk. I'm looking at solar panels to keep the freezer running.

Anonymous hood September 14, 2012 2:32 PM  

finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target!

Blogger Vidad, AKA David the Good September 14, 2012 2:35 PM  

@JohnS

Yes - permies.com has a lot of good stuff. I post over there occasionally and keep up on the forums.

@Mrs. Pilgim

We dry and can stuff. Then there's no relying on the freezer. Doing a lot of jerky would be a pain but would certainly keep it around for a long time. Not as nice as pot roast, though.

@MendoScot

I need to figure out how to add some solar. I'm wicked good with plants, not as good with electric.

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