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Wednesday, October 03, 2012

Mailvox: homeschool or die!

A longtime reader writes:
That school in Victorville where they're having the riots is where my kids would go if we didn't homeschool.  So, thanks again.
Happy to help.  And what a succinct response to the inevitable raising of the "socialization" issue that family now possesses.  Although, I suppose it could reasonably be argued that given the current demographic trends, white American children should be educated to expect violent struggles, both political and literal, between the black and brown portions of the population.

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110 Comments:

Blogger Beefy Levinson October 03, 2012 2:38 AM  

Protip: "bad school" is a euphemism for "school with lots of blacks or Mexicans or both."

Anonymous gfdg October 03, 2012 2:50 AM  

Where there are minorities there are bloodstains....and their bureaucratic slave masters which farm them.

Anonymous Greatheart October 03, 2012 5:29 AM  

Homeschooled children should always be taught the 3Rs, as well as practical martial arts training, proper weapons handling & targeting along with a keen sense of situational awareness.

Might help them out in the coming struggle.

Anonymous Greatheart October 03, 2012 5:32 AM  

History would be good, too, so they wouldn't repeat it (hopefully).

Anonymous Shutterbug October 03, 2012 6:32 AM  

We just started homeschooling our 13 yr old son. The "socialization" comments come up all the time. I just show the commentors a video I took with my phone of my son's choir class (I worked as a aid for a student with special needs in his class last year). The teacher had given up teaching and announced a study hall. It was chaos. The kids were doing everything but mating and flinging their poop. I say "There's your socialization."

That shuts 'em up.

Anonymous Luke October 03, 2012 6:33 AM  

Have two infants at home. They'll be homeschooled, and we're proud of it.

Charlotte Iserbyt's free online book covers the problems with gov't schooling nicely IMO:

http://deliberatedumbingdown.com/

Anonymous RC October 03, 2012 6:56 AM  

"We just started homeschooling our 13 yr old son."

In my experience, but for disaffected kids, your son will receive quite a bit of flak from his PS friends and will eventually push back on you. May you can navigate this transition well.

Anonymous DrTorch October 03, 2012 6:56 AM  

Brief history of US public education, and its "socialization" aspect

http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/10/john_dewey_is_a_fraud.html

Haven't checked out the resource linked at end of article.

Blogger Hermit October 03, 2012 6:58 AM  

This is our first year of officially homeschooling them. Of course we've been unofficially homeschooling them since before they could talk. Three kids with three different sleep schedules and (what would have been) school schedules. It is literally easier to school them all morning (and that is all it takes is the morning) than to be shuttling them around all day.

Blogger Spacebunny October 03, 2012 7:29 AM  

Dr. Torch - I very quickly scanned the link at the bottom of the article. I don't necessarily agree that it will be possible to change the schools, I do agree with his model in general about what should be taught, how it should be taught, etc. He also talks about being in favor of diversity of education (homeschooling, private, charter, etc) which is great. I'm going to take a longer look at his site when I have a bit more time.

Blogger Nate October 03, 2012 8:11 AM  

Apparently there has been an epic drop off of hispanic childbirth in the US. It used to be 3 kids per hispanic woman. Its down to 2.2 now.

As always... about the time a demographic pattern is spotted... it changes.

Blogger Nate October 03, 2012 8:14 AM  

"In my experience, but for disaffected kids, your son will receive quite a bit of flak from his PS friends and will eventually push back on you. May you can navigate this transition well."

interesting. Our experience is quite the opposite. If anything kids are jealous and want to be homeschooled as well.

Regardless... who cares if a 13 year kid "pushes back"? He's to ignorant to make decisions about his education. That's a parent's job.

Blogger Joshua_D October 03, 2012 8:15 AM  

The last time we had a family get together, homeschooling came up. Out of nowhere, my cousin asked, "Are y'all going to homeschool?" Of course we said, "Yes." There was a bit of discussion and my cousin claimed that she "couldn't teach." My wife encouraged her saying, "If you want to teach, you can. It's really not that difficult." Then my dad shared some of his concerns with homeschooling saying, "If concerned about them being isolated." I said, "Isolated? They are not isolated. They are around people all the time." I guess he meant isolated from a large group of misbehaving children the same age. Meh. Overall, I think it was a good bit of conversation. Funny thing though, as soon as my cousin brought up homeschooling, her two children started begging her to homeschool them saying they hated public school. I felt sad for her kids.

Btw, we are having another baby! It's due April 7, 2013. That'll make three.

Anonymous Greatheart October 03, 2012 8:20 AM  

Joshua_D October 03, 2012 8:15 AM: "Btw, we are having another baby! It's due April 7, 2013. That'll make three."

Congratulations!

Anonymous Blech October 03, 2012 8:26 AM  

"Socialization" means your kid adopting the same values, attitudes, and behaviors as the other kids.

In my world, this is something to be avoided at all costs.

Blogger Nate October 03, 2012 8:39 AM  

"Btw, we are having another baby! It's due April 7, 2013. That'll make three."

Congrats mate!

Blogger Nate October 03, 2012 8:40 AM  

the "I can't teach" objection is always amusing to me. So you can't teach... how did your kid get out of diapers then? How did they learn to walk? How did they learn to talk?

By the way... when you sit down and do homework with them at night... and help them through stuff... What exactly are you doing?

Blogger Joshua_D October 03, 2012 8:50 AM  

Nate October 03, 2012 8:40 AM

the "I can't teach" objection is always amusing to me. So you can't teach... how did your kid get out of diapers then? How did they learn to walk? How did they learn to talk?

By the way... when you sit down and do homework with them at night... and help them through stuff... What exactly are you doing?


Right?

You're can't teach, but you can be totally and fully responsible and accountable for the lives of other people, a.k.a. your children? Keeping two young people alive from birth to at least 18 is "doable," but you can't teach them math, or reading comprehension?

Anonymous JohnR October 03, 2012 8:55 AM  

And by the time the children are around 8 or 9, they can teach themselves. A lot of material (Saxon Math, IEW writing program) is self teaching. I don't teach any more, I just check their work.

Socialization: We're the only homeschooling family in the neighborhood.

Guess where the neighborhood children hang out?

Anonymous VectorSpace October 03, 2012 8:56 AM  

I homeschooled my son. His homeschool curriculum consisted of mathematics, reading, writing, history, politics, music, tactics and physical training. He is now 15 and starting his second year in college for a major in mathematics. He is a socially mature Christian libertarian. We have definitely had our conflicts as he pushes hard against authority; I have always encouraged this defiance provided he can defend his position with sound logic. My point to all this is that dedicated homeschooling works, and the "socialization" arguments against it are without merit. On a side note, it is rather funny that I also refer to my son as "Ender" at times.

Anonymous Blech October 03, 2012 8:57 AM  

"Can't teach" means "can't transmit all the so-called knowledge that the state has decided 'teachers' must impart as part of their brilliant 'employing the useless to babysit the useless' program."

Anonymous daddynichol October 03, 2012 8:57 AM  

"Btw, we are having another baby! It's due April 7, 2013. That'll make three."

From out family to yours, congratulations!

Blogger SarahsDaughter October 03, 2012 9:07 AM  

The "can't teach" excuse doesn't sadden me as much as the "I don't have the patience it would take to teach my kids" excuse.


Congratulations Joshua_D and family!

Anonymous fnn October 03, 2012 9:13 AM  

Apparently there has been an epic drop off of hispanic childbirth in the US. It used to be 3 kids per hispanic woman. Its down to 2.2 now.
As always... about the time a demographic pattern is spotted... it changes.


Demographic Momentum

Anonymous Josh October 03, 2012 9:19 AM  

Btw, we are having another baby! It's due April 7, 2013. That'll make three.

Congrats dude!

The ilk are multiplying.

Blogger Joshua_D October 03, 2012 9:19 AM  

Thank you for the congrats everyone.

Anonymous Otherwise Silent Observer October 03, 2012 9:22 AM  

"Although, I suppose it could reasonably be argued that given the current demographic trends, white American children should be educated to expect violent struggles, both political and literal, between the black and brown portions of the population."

Just another part of The New Normal, perhaps?

On the subject of home schooling, what is everybody's opinion on Khan Academy? (http://www.khanacademy.org/)

Anonymous Shutterbug October 03, 2012 9:25 AM  

There hasn't been any pushback from PS kids. In fact, when I pick my son up from football practice his friends run up to my vehicle and tell me all the stupid things going on in their classrooms, how much they hate it and would I please homeschool them too.

Right now, the 8th grade english class is tracing letters of the alphabet in an effort to improve the kid's handwriting.

As for being able to teach, I was a bit worried about algebra but it hasn't been a problem. My son just reads the lesson in the text book and does the work. He's teaching himself for the most part and I'm more of a guide. He's getting A's on all his tests. Plus, we were able to start in the middle of the textbook rather than review a everything he already knows with the whole class.

My biggest challege, and even that hasn't been a huge issue, is getting his writing up to where it should be. Last year his english teacher (the same one having the kids practice their handwriting right now) would have the kids read while he worked on his masters online. I sat there and fumed and documented everything for my husband to convince him we need to homeschool. Only a week of grammar was taught. Writing lessons were passing a paper around and having each kid add a sentence to make a funny story. Another writing lesson was creating fortune for fortune cookies.

He's not only doing "book learning," he's building himself a power rack for his weights in the garage. I had him research plans, the cost of building materials and doing the work himself vs. the cost of buying one. He had to write up a proposal for his idea to present to his father. It was approved, so I took him to the lumberyard and told him to go in and get his materials like a man. He did. He's working his ass off in the garage when he's done with schoolwork and working his calves. He's using power tools all by himself. Dad & I just check in to make sure he's wearing his safety glasses and getting along OK. He's so proud of himself and is doing a great job.

Actually, it feels a little weird to him to be learning in such a relaxed setting here at home. He feels like it should be harder and more stressful. How sad that it feels strange to my son to ENJOY learning. We thank God every day that we are able to do this and my boy has thanked us multiple times for giving us this opportunity.

Anonymous hood October 03, 2012 9:31 AM  

Joshua_D
Congrats!

Anonymous scoobius dubious October 03, 2012 9:32 AM  

"A longtime reader writes..."

You have a reader who still lives in Victorville?!?

?!?!?!?!?

What am I missing here?

Anonymous scoobius dubious October 03, 2012 9:39 AM  

"Homeschooled children should always be taught.... martial arts training, proper weapons handling & targeting along with a keen sense of situational awareness."

Unfortunately though, the best way to learn 'a keen sense of situational awareness' is to actually live in the, um, 'situation' itself, and let all its gloriously vibrant sights and sounds sink into your nerves.

I speak from unpleasant experience. I have eyes in the eyes in the eyes in the eyes in the back of my head, but I'm not particularly happy or proud of the achievement. All that effort could have been channelled into something far more satisfying and/or productive, had it not been for gloriously enriching vibrancy. Diversity is our strength! ---- but only because when diversity doesn't kill you it makes you stronger! But not happier or wiser.


Blogger Nate October 03, 2012 9:39 AM  

Shutterbug... just wait until you've been doing it for a while... and you realize that he's just handling it all himself... and when it comes to his learning... your main job is to get out of the way.

its almost shocking how fast they pick up things.. how fast the material is digested.

Blogger Nate October 03, 2012 9:40 AM  

"Unfortunately though, the best way to learn 'a keen sense of situational awareness' is to actually live in the, um, 'situation' itself, and let all its gloriously vibrant sights and sounds sink into your nerves."

Hunting is an excellent means of teaching situational awareness. I recommend it.

Anonymous jack October 03, 2012 9:40 AM  

Otherwise Silent Observer

On the subject of home schooling, what is everybody's opinion on Khan Academy? (http://www.khanacademy.org/)

Been there and looked. Watched a few of the lessons. Interesting. The story of how it came to be is interesting as well. For those that don't know...

Seems Bill Gates daughter, so I have heard, was having some trouble with math, I think. She happened upon Mr. Khan's you tube or two or three videos where he was trying to help his [niece?] Gates daughter was impressed enough to mention it to Bill. He was impressed enough to contact Khan. Gave him some 3 million to expand and there it is today.
I assume this story is true.

Blogger JDC October 03, 2012 9:43 AM  

I've had a few friends / parents at church try the socialization angle on me. It bugs the wifey, but it actually makes me laugh. I have a simple, 2 step response to their concern that a home schooled child will not be socialized properly. My first question is to ask them to define socialization (or their idea of what it is). It usually ends up being a concern that their child will be popular, admired by his/her peers and get a good prom date when the are in high school. Then, I invite them to meet my children.

They only refer to adults by a proper title (Mr. Mrs, Dr.). They say please and thank you often. They don't interrupt when someone else is speaking. When we visit the nursing homes / orphanages / they engage others in discussion, asking questions and showing genuine interest in what people are saying. Inevitably, an adult will say how well behaved and smart they are - as if this is an anomaly. Internally I laugh, because that's the way it's supposed to be. Funny how well adjusted children can become when they actually spend time with their parents.

Anonymous rycamor October 03, 2012 9:44 AM  

When parents say they "can't teach", they really mean they can't manage their children at all, for any sizable length of time and they look at school as a blessed respite from the stress and responsibility. The parents we have known who give up on homeschooling (usually the mothers) always have some sort of personality conflict with the child and don't know how to fix it.

I find it interesting that the concept of "frame" in Vox's game discussions can apply quite well to children also. If you approach something from a supplicating, anxious point of view, you are putting the other person in the driver's seat.

Parents who say "I can't get my kid to eat anything healthy" are generally doing the same thing. They ask their son to eat broccoli, and when he refuses, they sigh, express frustration, and then hand him the Tater Tots. Gee, which side of that conflict got reinforced? Whose bluff got called?

Ditto with homeschooling. If you throw up your arms and say "OK, fine. Don't do your math. I give up! Go ahead and play video games." Who have you put in the driver's seat?

In both cases your mistake has been to a) express frustration, b) convey impotence, and c) reward intransigence. So now the kid knows you are emotionally invested but don't have the authority to make it stick, AND that if he stands up to you, he will win. Bad recipe for a happy child. Must do the exact opposite of a,b, and c.

Anonymous Curlytop October 03, 2012 9:48 AM  

Joshua_D October 03, 2012 8:15 AM

Btw, we are having another baby! It's due April 7, 2013. That'll make three.

Excellent news! Congratulations and sending prayers for a happy, healthy pregnancy and arrival. Lots of Ilk babies on the horizon. :-)

On the thread topic:
We have the same experience as Nate and others. Our children's non-home educated friends from church and extracurricular activities tell them all the time how lucky they are and there have been several occasions that the poor kids have begged their parents to home educate right in front of us. Mostly the parents look uncomfortable and ignore the pleas. Sad.

Shutterbug,
Excellent way to shut down the dumb "socialization" remark.

Blogger JDC October 03, 2012 9:49 AM  

Hunting is an excellent means of teaching situational awareness. I recommend it.

My 8 y/o cannot wait to go through hunter's safety and receive her Mentored Youth Hunting License. We were out setting the scope on my crossbow, and she could barely contain herself. Hunting, IMO, is much better than self-defense training. Not to kill the perpetrator, but to develop a healthy understanding of one's surroundings. (BTW - saw a 10-pointer in my deer cam this AM - cannot wait to get out to my stand this weekend).

Anonymous scoobius dubious October 03, 2012 9:51 AM  

"Hunting is an excellent means of teaching situational awareness."

Oh, what I went through as a lad was very much a species of "hunting." But just not the sort of thing you had in mind.

Blogger JDC October 03, 2012 9:58 AM  

@scoobius - Are you talking about the ladies??? Well, the comparisons abound. When hunting you need to look for signs of animal activity (scrapes, rubs, droppings) and set up in the appropriate spots. You need to be wary of your scent (or lack thereof). You need to choose the appropriate weapon (whether you are shooting through brush, or taking a long distance shot). You need to wear the proper clothing. You need to spend time drinking whiskey with your hunting buddies, and brag about the one you saw, but couldn't take a shot at. You need to have patience. You need to listen and be aware. If your state allows baiting you need to choose the appropriate tease (I prefer corn, alfalfa and sugar beets). You then need to know how to gut them when the hunt is over, and have the strength to carry them back to your truck.

I could go on and on....happy hunting.

Anonymous Josh October 03, 2012 9:59 AM  

How to homeschool:
Step one: teach kid to read
Step two: throw books at them and leave them alone to read

Anonymous RC October 03, 2012 10:11 AM  

Regardless... who cares if a 13 year kid "pushes back"? He's to ignorant to make decisions about his education. That's a parent's job." - Nate

I agree but I'm just giving her a heads up in case she encounters it; some things are easier to deal with when you're prepared.

As to the hunting suggestion, a hundred amens; nothing better to help with situational awareness in kids and helping them learn to cope with their fears.

Anonymous Blech October 03, 2012 10:15 AM  

Unfortunately though, the best way to learn 'a keen sense of situational awareness' is to actually live in the, um, 'situation' itself, and let all its gloriously vibrant sights and sounds sink into your nerves.

Sure, you'll be too busy fearing for your life and trying to prevent your stuff from being stolen to learn anything, but you'll have great situational awareness.

Anonymous scoobius dubious October 03, 2012 10:28 AM  

"Sure, you'll be too busy fearing for your life"

Or not.

Anonymous RC October 03, 2012 10:30 AM  

Btw, we are having another baby! It's due April 7, 2013. That'll make three."

Congrats. Three is a good start!

Anonymous scoobius dubious October 03, 2012 10:31 AM  

"@scoobius - Are you talking about the ladies???"

No. No, I am not.

Hey --- where's Perry?

Blogger Bob Wallace October 03, 2012 10:41 AM  

The only thing I learned in middle school was how to fight, and in high school how to make a bong out of a coffee pot.

I regret every day I spent in the public schools.

Anonymous RC October 03, 2012 10:42 AM  

I could go on and on....happy hunting." - JDC

Excellent. I would add tracking to your list. Completing the cycle is important too, processing and eating them. There is a deep satisfaction in eating something you killed and brought home.

Blogger IM2L844 October 03, 2012 11:04 AM  

Where there are minorities there are bloodstains....and their bureaucratic slave masters which farm them.

gfdg, you need to put a little more thought into exactly which specific segment of society is being exploited the most by TPTB to keep the machinery churning along. Here's a clue: It's not the minorities who generally benefit from said exploitation.

Anonymous hood October 03, 2012 11:05 AM  

"I regret every day I spent in the public schools."

I really did not enjoy any schooling I received after about 5th grade. Had I realized the waste of time that it was, I would have gone the GED route and been out by my 16th birthday.
My distaste for PS is only surpassed by my distaste for college. I've currently got a sister in her final year at a large university. She is studying marketing, and has to take several business classes. One of which is accounting. So, I asked her to teach me some accounting; she hadn't been taught (or learned) anything past Assets-Liabilities=Equity, and FIFO/FILO.
I was dumbfounded.

Anonymous a good ROI October 03, 2012 11:10 AM  

...implying that only white children are homeschooled.

Really?

Anonymous Stilicho October 03, 2012 11:15 AM  

Btw, we are having another baby! It's due April 7, 2013. That'll make three.

Congrats!

Anonymous scoobius dubious October 03, 2012 11:17 AM  

"The only thing I learned in middle school was how to fight,"

Yeah, the only things I learned in middle school (i.e. from the actual school, and not on my own) were:
a) how to fight, and
b) that there are mysterious places in the world where if you go there, then you no longer have to fight all the time.

So, I worked my ass off and got into a private high school as a Scholarship Boy, where I didn't have to fight all the time, and where I then learned:

a) that it's kind of nice, but also kind of weird, to be around people who have a lot of money but who never had to fight all the time, and

b) you can really push their buttons if you know all about their academic subjects, and you also know how to fight all the time. You don't even have to be very good at fighting (I wasn't), since they know nothing at all about it and can't judge; you just have to demonstrate basic competence and a will to do it, and then they kind of soil their chinos, throw money at you, and retreat. (See also under HISTORY OF TWENTY-FIRST CENTURY AMERICA / IMMIGRATION POLICY)

From there, it wasn't very hard to piously say All The Right Things and therefore get into a top-notch posh university. There, among other actual academic things, I learned that:

a) Actual fighting was no longer a particularly relevant skill at Posh University,
but that

b) Extremely fuckable high-class chicks could sort of smell it off you, and dug your scars,

and

c) All things considered, that made for a very nice time at Posh University.

I also learned that Extremely Fuckable High-Class Chicks aren't generally all that marriageable, unless you want your marriage to self-destruct in five years time. (This datum may have been an outlier on my part, and not a general principle: if so, I salute anyone who's actually made a successful marriage with an EFHCC.) So now I am with a chick who, you guessed it, also comes from a middle school where people had to fight all the time. We're happy, and probably properly evenly matched... but then again, we're also not unaware of the Gods of Irony.



Anonymous Edjamacator October 03, 2012 11:24 AM  

My sister gives me grief about not just the "socialization" nonsense when I mention my wife will homeschool our toddler when he gets old enough (not that we're not doing anything now), but she also tacks on a "he won't learn how to deal with bullies" comment as well. She believes that unless a kid gets bullied in school and learns how to handle it he'll be a mushy mess that can't stand up for himself and will cry the instant "his boss or someone else" pushes him later in life. As if as an adult a homeschooled kid has no emotional strength.

Then she mentions later how she can't wait for her other kid to start school so she can get some peace and quiet. Justification central with her, I do believe.

Anonymous Lysander Spooner October 03, 2012 11:53 AM  

I did home school my twin boys up until third grade, they are now 23.

It was more of an un-schooling approach, no basement classroom with Mom pretending to be teacher.

After my Churchian wife got religion, and began studying the Bible in earnest, she found a 'nice' Churchian lawyer, and that was that.

Church wife, enrolled my sons in Parochial school. After that, they moved to Colorado, did the ski/snowboarding patrol at Vail for three years, I like to think of it as a period of growth and un-schooling.

The boys are back, living with me, and have announced they are going to tryout for a DI Hockey program close to home, and pursue their education in medicine also. I said to them, "What have you done with my children".

Funny thing, they asked me why I went to college, I replied "To play Soccer". I had a DI scholarship, and eventually went to medical school. So, they asked what do you think of us going to Colorado? I retorted, it may be a great path to becoming a plastic surgeon !! My Churchian "X" now married to a limp wristed Churchian quasi male was aghast !

Goes to show, sometimes the best parenting is leave 'em be, provide them a good example, the apple often does not fall far from the tree.

Anonymous 11B October 03, 2012 11:55 AM  

Here is the latest ad campaign from our government. It celebrates the 40th anniversary of the affordable housing act and encourages us to make our neighborhoods more diverse.

It is amazing to see this propaganda as we are treated to story after story, day after day, of diversity being not quite what it was cracked up to be.

Anonymous Curlytop October 03, 2012 12:17 PM  

Edjamacator October 03, 2012 11:24 AM
Then she mentions later how she can't wait for her other kid to start school so she can get some peace and quiet. Justification central with her, I do believe.

Bingo! Which is the reason they retort: "I could never teach MY children!" I heard this from a Churchian, who taught school for many years before they used artificial means to get pregnant with said children.

One home educating mother I know(VERY affluent) lamented that the women in her posh neighborhood gather at the pool w wine on the first day their children are back in school to celebrate the occasion. I honestly can't fathom it. :-( However, Karma's a B! These same women will be the ones whose children will dump them into nursing homes without batting an eye later on. Can't say I blame them either.

Our children are some of the coolest people I know and I far prefer spending time with them than 90% of the adults out there.

Anonymous Mrs. Pilgrim October 03, 2012 12:18 PM  

People pull that on me all the time, too, but usually different angles, such as "wasting your education" or "who will teach them chemistry/foreign languages/art/pickle-ball?" Sometimes in the same breath.

I usually mention that I like their assumption that education is that specialized. Then I thank them for their concern, but "we'll be just fine."

Blogger ajw308 October 03, 2012 12:29 PM  

Joshua_D: Congradulations and prayers to you and your growing family.

VectorSpace: Once tempered and ground to a fine edge that pushing back against authority trait will be called leadership.

Anonymous ThirdMonkey October 03, 2012 1:10 PM  

A friend of mine sent me this quote. I was unable to verify it's accuracy, but thought the content was spot-on:

"Once you've accepted socialized education you have no leg to stand on in opposing socialized healthcare. If the government can be trusted with the precious and all-important task of care, discipleship and education of our children, it can be trusted with practically anything else, including a lesser task such as healthcare." ~Tait Zimmerman

When my mom homeschooled my sister 20 years ago, she was constanly defending her decision. Now, with the explosion in homeschooling, government school parents have become somewhat defensive, i.e. "what's wrong with public school?" I and my wife operate on the premise that homeschooling should be the default, and make them defend their decision. We've lost a few friends over it. But it wasn't much of a loss, as I don't want my kid's "socializing" with their rotten-ass kids, anyway.

Anonymous rycamor October 03, 2012 1:46 PM  

ThirdMonkey,

I've noticed that too, recently. These days when the subject comes up, I get at most a token objection about socialization that I barely have to refute, and then a sigh... "I wish I could do what you're doing, but..." [insert standard reason here] and then they make a half-hearted defense of public school, seemingly more to console themselves than to really convince me.

I'd say within the conservative middle-class population, we're at most a decade away from homeschooling being regarded as the gold standard for education. As the economy continues downward, expect this to hasten.

Anonymous Ten41 October 03, 2012 1:58 PM  

RC
“In my experience, but for disaffected kids, your son will receive quite a bit of flak from his PS friends and will eventually push back on you. May you can navigate this transition well.”

We have not had that issue. In fact it is the other way around. His friends are jealous, and one close family recently converted to the homeschool way of life because of us.

DrTorch
Brief history of US public education, and its "socialization" aspect...

Another good resource is John Gatto’s The Underground History of American Education

Joshua_D
There was a bit of discussion and my cousin claimed that she "couldn't teach."

One of the most interesting studies that I have seen is from the Home School Legal Defense Association. It should put to rest any qualms that she may have as to teaching her children.

We also have found that once a child finds out something that interests them, then you have to get out of their way or they will run you over! We get to the point where we just facilitate getting materials, not the actual teaching. Sure there may be difficult times, but those are fewer and farther between than most people realize.

JDC
They only refer to adults by a proper title (Mr. Mrs, Dr.)…

We have found the same with our children. It is strange (because it is not the new normal?) to have complete strangers come up to my boys in Cracker Barrel and give them candy or presents for being so well behaved. That is when it really hits home how different my boys have ended up being from their public school counterparts.

Anonymous bw October 03, 2012 2:03 PM  

put a little more thought into exactly which specific segment of society is being exploited the most by TPTB to keep the machinery churning along. Here's a clue: It's not the minorities who generally benefit from said exploitation.
IM2L844 11:04 AM

In other words, Religious-Fundamentalist-Progressive-Statists have failed to note the amount of Capital and Production needed to fund and implement Marxist Socialism...and from whence cometh it in this country (the FED notwithstanding). Of hosts, parasites, death, and all that...

as I don't want my kid's "socializing" with their rotten-ass kids, anyway. Third Monkey

+1

Anonymous Anonymous October 03, 2012 2:19 PM  

@ shutterbug,

check out Kahn Academy(www.kahnacademy.org). it's free and much of what you need. . .sounds like it's there.

rick

Anonymous bw October 03, 2012 2:22 PM  

Plethora of JT Gatto audio files for download, transfer, and easy listening on-the-go. (scroll down the page; they are scattered about)

True. American. Hero.

http://www.altruists.org/downloads/audio/

Anonymous E. PERLINE October 03, 2012 2:24 PM  

When I went to school there were no computers. We learned everything from our teachers because in those days it wasn't cool to be militant. The teachers referred to text books for home work. No one thought of making back packs, so we constantly carried heavy books in our arms.

Now I see there more and more parents doing "home schooling." But some parents don't have confidence in their ability to be teachers.

I'm a great believer in educational television. I also believe that tutorials can be delivered on the computer. Every subject and grade can thus be covered.

It's true that achieving constant improvement in these mediums would be expensive, our present way of schooling is far more expensive. If parents need time for working, etc. the school buildings can be used for this kind of education. The few professional monitors needed would be far cheaper than an often dissatisfied army of teachers.

Anonymous rubbermallet October 03, 2012 3:05 PM  

just the other day, after fending off "socialization" comments, this one came up and had me floored as it came out of the mouth of a generally intelligent person. "if all the smart people are pulled out of the public schools and home schooled, this takes away a positive learning experience/incluence for the impoverished students, and takes dedicated parents out of the pool of helping out with things like PTA and such. just imagine how effective the both of you would be in such a setting!"

so i'm supposed to sacrifice the education and future of my child for the greater good of society? Not only do I feel that this is a totally flawed evaluation of the situation, but even if it was true, I could care less about the greater good if it comes at such a high price.

Anonymous rubbermallet October 03, 2012 3:08 PM  

don't let my awful grammar dissuade you. my primary teaching position with my children is gun assembly, charcuterie, and breaking down sides of swine and beef.

Anonymous Josh October 03, 2012 3:30 PM  

When I went to school there were no computers. We learned everything from our teachers because in those days it wasn't cool to be militant. The teachers referred to text books for home work. No one thought of making back packs, so we constantly carried heavy books in our arms.

Walking to school uphill both ways, right?

I'll get off your lawn now.

Blogger Nate October 03, 2012 3:33 PM  

"When I went to school there were no computers. We learned everything from our teachers because in those days it wasn't cool to be militant. The teachers referred to text books for home work. No one thought of making back packs, so we constantly carried heavy books in our arms."

Go to bed old man.

Anonymous Stingray October 03, 2012 3:38 PM  

Josh and Nate,

Whippersnappers!

Joshua D,

Wonderful news. Congratulations.

Blogger Joshua_D October 03, 2012 3:39 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger IM2L844 October 03, 2012 3:41 PM  

In other words, Religious-Fundamentalist-Progressive-Statists have failed to note the amount of Capital and Production needed to fund and implement Marxist Socialism...and from whence cometh it in this country (the FED notwithstanding). Of hosts, parasites, death, and all that...


Both the equitable income distribution globalists masquerading as socially responsible democrats and the equitable resource distribution globalists masquerading as capitalist loving republicans know precisely which demographic to exploit in order to further their globalist agenda.

EDIT:
gfdg, put a little more thought into exactly which specific segment of society is being exploited the most by TPTB to keep the machinery churning along. Here's a clue: It's not the minorities! They are the ones that generally benefit the most from said exploitation.

Blogger Joshua_D October 03, 2012 3:42 PM  

Josh October 03, 2012 3:30 PM

Walking to school uphill both ways, right?

I'll get off your lawn now.



Nate October 03, 2012 3:33 PM

Go to bed old man.



Lol. I thought EP was going to maybe point out that education was simpler in the old days, and then he went on to promote video learning en mass!

Anonymous Josh October 03, 2012 3:46 PM  

Video good
Computer bad

Anonymous mjb October 03, 2012 5:22 PM  

Homeschooling is a commitment, but it just seems natural, like, "why wouldn't you do this?" Anyway, just chiming in to say that we'll be having kid number 4 due 11/3.

We may as well do like Nate, and mommy blog comment on VD's post.

Blogger Joshua_D October 03, 2012 5:52 PM  

Congrats!

Anonymous George October 03, 2012 6:06 PM  

Bob Wallace Wrote:

"The only thing I learned in middle school was how to fight, and in high school how to make a bong out of a coffee pot. I regret every day I spent in the public schools."

Hmmm...My public school education got me prepared me for and got me into a good university. I guess it's all about what you want to put into it.

Blogger WarKicker October 03, 2012 6:21 PM  

Joshua_D and mjb, that's great new! Congratulations to both. We are expecting our fourth in 2 weeks.

My first post on this blog was about a year and a half ago. At that time my wife and I knew we needed to make changes to exit the proverbial rat race. On the surface, we had successful careers as physicians, three great kids, a beautiful home, fancy cars, and more than enough material wealth, but our walk with the Lord was stagnant. Through prayer as well as encouraged partly by what I have witnessed in the exchanges by Vox and the Ilk in this blog, we have taken a leap of faith. Fancy cars are gone, house is for sale, my wife retired back in June to stay at home and we are transitioning into homeschooling the kids. I will be traveling on medical missions with like minded colleagues and starting an apologetics class at my local church.

I have been educated, humbled and encouraged by many on this blog. For that, I will always be grateful.

Anonymous ODG October 03, 2012 6:21 PM  

"if all the smart people are pulled out of the public schools and home schooled, this takes away a positive learning experience/incluence for the impoverished students, and takes dedicated parents out of the pool of helping out with things like PTA and such. just imagine how effective the both of you would be in such a setting!"

I've been told this by many well meaning Christians, but they added in that their own kids are
also in public schools to be positive spiritual role models. From what I've seen, it isn't working out that way. So not only are their academic futures compromised, but their eternal souls as well.

Anonymous ODG October 03, 2012 6:24 PM  

George wrote: "Hmmm...My public school education got me prepared me for and got me into a good university. I guess it's all about what you want to put into it."

BS, George. Your intelligence, or what remained after public school, is what got you into the university. By your comments here, the university removed what the public school left.

Blogger Bob Wallace October 03, 2012 6:25 PM  

@ George,

"I guess it's all about what you want to put into it."

Hard to "put anything in it" when you spend your time avoiding being beaten to a pulp by three guys.

Anonymous Josh October 03, 2012 7:06 PM  

Congrats mjb!

Anonymous Daniel October 03, 2012 7:10 PM  

Hmmm...My public school education got me prepared me for and got me into a good university. I guess it's all about what you want to put into it.

Really? 7.5 hours/day of mass education migrated into 5.5 hours/day of mass education that you got to pay for out of your own bank account?

Wow, George, that's amazing.

In other news, former child soldiers sometimes become violent as adults.

Anonymous Sensei October 03, 2012 7:11 PM  

I had a surreal discussion once in which the other guy got visibly angered when I suggested homeschooling was generally preferable to public schooling in America. He responded paradoxically that public schools in America are excellent and also that the reason schools are failing is that Christians and well-off Americans are pulling their kids (and involvement) out.

If parents want to sacrifice their kids to some naive concept of responsibility to the greater good of what is set up to fail, I suppose they have that right as parents. But I grieve to see kids have their natural abilities dulled and stunted by a system designed to make them obliging pawns. It would be better to simply not have any formal education than to be force-fed stupid pills for nearly all your formative years.

Blogger Nate October 03, 2012 7:17 PM  

"Hmmm...My public school education got me prepared me for and got me into a good university. I guess it's all about what you want to put into it."

Didn't Jerry Sandusky say the same thing?

Anonymous Cat McClusky October 03, 2012 7:19 PM  

Just be careful about touting how successful homeschooling is compared to public schooling.

Big Brotherment takes a dim view of being upstaged.

Brotherment also has a particular fear and loathing for those who opt their kids out of the PC indoctrination gulags.

Blogger Christina October 03, 2012 8:02 PM  

People pull that on me all the time, too, but usually different angles, such as "wasting your education" or "who will teach them chemistry/foreign languages/art/pickle-ball?" Sometimes in the same breath.

Pickel Ball? Why grandma, of course. My 3 year old already knows how to play!

I want to homeschool my kids. My husband and his family are all about the "socialization." So I get a compromise - if I get a job in a private school, they can go to private school.

Oh. Joy.

Anonymous MaMu1977 October 03, 2012 8:48 PM  

@rubbermallet

Everyone in my family (even prior to the dumbing down of America's educational system) sent their children to public school. In 1998, one of my relatives transferred her youngest son to a private school (after learning that most of his classmates though that being able to write simple sentences at the age of six was "acting white". She's a liberal.) When the principal asked for a reason, my cousin said, "I don't want to be a grandmother at 40, and I don't want to bury him before I turn 50." Twelve years to the day, her ex-husband ran into the principal at an Arby's. Result- out of the 18 boys of Class 138 (his son's former class), 10 of them were fathers, 6 of them had been shot, 3 of them were dead (2 of the shot students died, a separate student was stabbed for his Air Jordans.) But, the principal crowed, three of the boys were admitted into state colleges! My cousin's husband told him that his former student was an 18 year old sophmore (as of a few weeks ago, a 19 year old junior) majoring in Civil Engineering. "And we never had to worry about which hooligan was going to use our son to earn his stripes.", my cousin's ex said before walking off.

Anonymous Curlytop October 03, 2012 10:23 PM  

Cat McClusky October 03, 2012 7:19 PM
Just be careful about touting how successful homeschooling is compared to public schooling.

Big Brotherment takes a dim view of being upstaged.

Brotherment also has a particular fear and loathing for those who opt their kids out of the PC indoctrination gulags.


So? Our job as parents isn't to worry about how government or anyone else thinks of our choices to "train up our children in the ways he should go and when he grows old he shouldn't depart." Proverbs 22:6

Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. ~ Thomas Jefferson

We'll take our chance as we are less concerned about fitting in than their eternal souls.

Anonymous p-dawg October 03, 2012 11:00 PM  

"got me prepared me for"

Public-school-graduate-like typing detected.

Anonymous Noah B. October 04, 2012 12:18 AM  

Looks like Romney won the debate.

yay...

Blogger IM2L844 October 04, 2012 1:25 AM  

Looks like Romney won the debate.

yay...


I guess I would give Romney the edge if there were an edge to be had, but I would have preferred a real debate to the contest of who could be the most conciliatory that I saw. Too many missed opportunities on both sides made it feel a little too phony.

Anonymous Thomas Mann October 04, 2012 1:58 AM  

“There is no neutral education. Education is either for domestication or for freedom.”

Anonymous VectorSpace October 04, 2012 8:12 AM  

This thread is very encouraging. So many people homeschooling, and adding to their families (congratulations to all expecting incoming).

Just be careful about touting how successful homeschooling is compared to public schooling.

I enjoy touting. Doing so has convinced some other families around me to homeschool.

But some parents don't have confidence in their ability to be teachers.

All you really need to teach a child (academically, mind you) is reading, writing, arithmetic, and some problem solving skills. Otherwise, give them independence, interest, and responsibility and you will be amazed at what children can do mostly on their own, under mature guidance; especially with the ease of access to information we enjoy. Homeschooling is the intersection of academics, morality, ethics, and first principles.

Anonymous RC October 04, 2012 10:15 AM  

Fancy cars are gone, house is for sale, my wife retired back in June to stay at home and we are transitioning into homeschooling the kids. I will be traveling on medical missions with like minded colleagues and starting an apologetics class at my local church." - WarKicker

I love hearing about people gathering the courage to make such decisions. Enjoy the deep and peaceful sleep that comes from doing what's best.

Anonymous George October 04, 2012 10:16 AM  

Daniel wrote:

"Hmmm...My public school education got me prepared me for and got me into a good university. I guess it's all about what you want to put into it.

Really? 7.5 hours/day of mass education migrated into 5.5 hours/day of mass education that you got to pay for out of your own bank account?

Yes really. The fact is public schooling gave me a fairly strong foundation in Algebra and Calculus, History, English and Composition, basic science, as well as left me with excellent typing skills and a better understanding of how discipline yields results. This public school education got me into a good university that led to post-graduate work and this in turn led to a successful career.

Diss public schooling all you want. But it works. It depends on whether you've got the basic chops to benefit from it and what you put into it.

Anonymous RC October 04, 2012 10:25 AM  

Go to bed old man." - Nate

Come on Nate. Be nice to the oldsters. He's harmless and this blog occupies him well, time better spent than most his age.

@EP - Being an atheist at 90 is walking a tightrope over the Grand Canyon.

Anonymous Ten41 October 04, 2012 10:54 AM  

George
"Diss public schooling all you want. But it works. It depends on whether you've got the basic chops to benefit from it and what you put into it."

Isn't this assuming that public school has the ability to give you what you need to begin with? I went to high school late 70's early 80's, but even since then, things have gone down hill. So much so that my old school teachers commend us on homeschooling. When you have school's rated as "D" by the state, there is something wrong that no amount of "basic chops" is going to change.

So, yes, I diss public school. At least ours.

Anonymous Athor Pel October 04, 2012 12:08 PM  

" George October 04, 2012 10:16 AM
...
Diss public schooling all you want. But it works."



This is true. It was designed to produce people like you. You should be proud.

Anonymous bbtp October 04, 2012 12:32 PM  

Homeschooling lawyer checking in here. My kid is 3-5 grade levels ahead in every subject, but that doesn't really capture the depth of subject immersion that's possible when you homeschool.

For instance, the math we do is "third-grade math" in the sense that the topics covered are multiplication, division, and simple geometry, but his books go into those subjects in depth in a way that public school could never match; ever see a public school textbook where kids learn to calculate 7999*8001 in their heads or deduce the function giving the number of diagonals of an n-gon? Similarly, his history and science programs allow him to move at his own extremely rapid pace. Unlike any schooled kids I've ever heard of, he does experiments a few times/week (e.g., isolating DNA from a cheek scraping by (1) dissolving the cell membranes with a bit of dish soap and (2) separating the proteins by carefully pouring the solution through chilled alcohol.) There are unbelievable resources out there for homeschoolers now. If you haven't taken the plunge -- take it now!

As far as "socialization," my kid spends 2 hrs+/day playing sports. Constant teamwork and friendly competition mean he's far better "socialized" than a kid who sits in a classroom for 8 hrs/day and watches TV for 2 hrs/night. It's really depressing to see schooled kids at the park on the rare occasions that their parents let them out -- half of them are so feeble from being indoors most of the time that they shuffle like they have Parkinson's. Also, they're glued to their phones and PSP's and they don't know how to talk to adults.

--bbtp

Blogger Bob Wallace October 04, 2012 12:58 PM  

@ George,


"The fact is public schooling gave me a fairly strong foundation in Algebra and Calculus, History, English and Composition, basic science,"

My high school had none of those things. My middle school forced all the boys to take Shop and all the girls Home Economics.

You're pretty dense, aren't you? Can you actually understand that so many kids are pulling out of public schools are a sign they are in terrible trouble?

By the way, in the area I grew up, a student was transferred to another high school because he was troublesome, and the first day went into the girls' bathroom and drowned a 15-year-old girl in a toilet.

If something like that happened to you, you would change your mind pronto about the wonders of public schools.

What's that old saying? There are none so blind as those who will not see?

Anonymous George October 04, 2012 2:21 PM  

"This is true. It was designed to produce people like you. You should be proud."

People like me aren't too bad, Arthur. We raise children. We support families. We help others. We are involved in the community. If the public schools had a role in this, then a certain amount of pride in the schools system is warranted indeed.

Anonymous Edjamacator October 04, 2012 3:31 PM  

People like me aren't too bad, Arthur. We raise children. We support families. We help others. We are involved in the community.

Huh. All the things people like Obama would claim, too. We all see how well that's working out.

Now, George, have you once asked yourself during this thread "if public school helped me so much, maybe homeschooling would have helped even more?" How do you know you wouldn't have achieved much more not being held down to the lowest common denominator or treated like a product on an assembly line?

Anonymous George October 04, 2012 4:28 PM  

Edjamacator:

But you see, I was not held down. Nor was I treated as a product line.

However, it is possible that had I been home schooled or had I been schooled by Christian Aliens on their mothership that I may have acheived more.

Blogger Campion October 04, 2012 9:12 PM  

I have a lot of respect for home schoolers but I have some reservations. In some respects I might have done better at home. My father was a math professor and well read in History and Literature but he was working full time and therefore my mother would have been teaching me. Regrettably, she had a personality disorder that made her anxious and extremely obstreperous. I would have been driven mad studying with her.
I believe community schools, based on correct principles, with other people responsible for the student's education is still the best model.

Anonymous Luke October 05, 2012 12:25 PM  

George, if someone ended up as a political liberal, their education sucked.

Anonymous Joe Winpisinger October 07, 2012 12:57 PM  

Homeschooling tends to produce atheists. 80 percent of the kids that grow up in church(many of which are homeschooled) end of being atheists within 6 months of college... Though I did find a hybrid model based on reviving classical education here in Southwest Florida that is the best idea I have seen in education in my 15 years in and out of the teaching profession...

Anonymous Gatto October 07, 2012 1:32 PM  


therefore my mother would have been teaching me

You do not understand the basic, historical, and scientific (the real kind) methods by which average human being Learn.

I believe community schools, based on correct principles, with other people responsible for the student's education is still the best model.

Against all historical evidence, including that of the founders of the united states of America.

You - and you are hardly alone - believe in a Religious Myth concerning schooling and the education of a human being. It has been trained into you. Those who have administered that (false) Pavlovian training have much to lose if the masses were to shrug off that training and Belief system.

Anonymous bw October 07, 2012 1:45 PM  

Brotherment also has a particular fear and loathing for those who opt their kids out of the PC indoctrination gulags.

Which tells the average thinking person, practicing even a modicum of observational power, what the real goals of the State are.

An educated and independent populace cannot be coerced and dominated.
So the State seeks to ensure the masses are not educated, critical thinking, questioning, inquisitive, independent seekers.


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