Mortality
You know you've officially reached middle age when people you knew in your youth start dying of adult things like heart attacks and cancer. I got an email from a friend today; a man who'd graduated with him, with whom I'd ridden to school from 7th through 9th grade, died recently of cancer.
He wasn't a friend and I never really knew him, even though we were sitting next to each other practically every day for three years. (In other words, there is absolutely no need for expressing any condolences.) I didn't dislike him, but I didn't like him either. I can't say I'd even thought about him one single time since he graduated the year before me more than 25 years ago. But, by all accounts, he turned out to be a good man, a good Christian, and a good father.
And yet, it seems impossible that he could be in his forties, lead alone dead. When I think of him now, I still picture a slightly overweight blond guy, 17 years old and of average height, wearing a t-shirt that is a little too tight and an air of calm superiority. Of course, when I look in the mirror, I wonder who that weary-eyed Lovecraftian monster staring back at me could be.
Our time here is short. Make the most of it, in the knowledge that one day you'll be accountable for it.
He wasn't a friend and I never really knew him, even though we were sitting next to each other practically every day for three years. (In other words, there is absolutely no need for expressing any condolences.) I didn't dislike him, but I didn't like him either. I can't say I'd even thought about him one single time since he graduated the year before me more than 25 years ago. But, by all accounts, he turned out to be a good man, a good Christian, and a good father.
And yet, it seems impossible that he could be in his forties, lead alone dead. When I think of him now, I still picture a slightly overweight blond guy, 17 years old and of average height, wearing a t-shirt that is a little too tight and an air of calm superiority. Of course, when I look in the mirror, I wonder who that weary-eyed Lovecraftian monster staring back at me could be.
Our time here is short. Make the most of it, in the knowledge that one day you'll be accountable for it.
Labels: philosophy
143 Comments:
Sorry for your loss Vox... Young Vox was so strong and cool
Amen. Also, spend your life as physically fit as you can.
Amen, Vox.
Who's 'weary eyed'?
Live until you die.
Give an account, wow. Those are sobering words. Someday we stand before God, all alone, talking to the Master and the Creator. I hardly know of anything more frightening. Thank God for Jesus!
Another thing. You never know when it is the final time that you will do a particular thing. Not necessarily because of mortality, perhaps just changes in your life/lifestyle. Always keep in the back of your mind, when you are doing something that you enjoy---it might be your last time.
A local author (Ken Burger) wrote, that as a kid, he remembered his mother complaining about himself and all the neighborhood kids playing in their yard and tearing up the grass. His dad, a man of few words, responded, "The grass will always cpme back, one day the kids won't."
What’s strange to think about is that I vividly remember the promos for this show which, aptly named, is about people in their 30s raising children and dealing with life. Before I rose from bed this week to see to my child I realized it was now me. I lost my first high school acquaintance to crohn's disease about three years ago. Life rolls on…
Yep. I had a very similar experience a few years back when I learned that one of my high school girlfriends had recently died of breast cancer after giving birth to her third child.
It is always a sobering thing to realize you are no longer in your prime, and have started your decline.
I am now the same age my father was when I was born. I look at him now, with all of his health issues, and can see some of the path ahead.
All in all, I am content with that. I have my own family now, and have adjusted my life because of it. I will not reach the goals that I had for myself in my 20's, but I don't want to any more.
I'm glad the best is still yet to come.
I love the last book of the Narnia series when the crew sees the new Narnia and the friends they have been separated from - and experience an energy and vigor not known in the previous life.
When the mortal is exchanged for the immortal - that's going to be AWESOME!
> I will not reach the goals that I had for myself in my 20's, but I don't want to any more.
Here here to that. What a nice thought. I have been there as well and it's a sobering moment. I found myself widowed with two small children by the time I was in my mid-twenties. At the dawn of my 30's I was thinking the same thing - what I had planned in my 20's seems very quaint, and also, wholy un-missed.
You know... you never know how these things are going to hit you. A while back I learned that one of my best friends from childhood died. He got hit by a car that blew a stop sign. I hadn't seen him in two decades... and I can't honestly say I even thought about him that often... though I did think of him and tell stories he was involved in.
Then out of the blue... I learn he's gone... and things are all the suddenly slightly different. Like life just turned a page on you and you weren't expecting it.
Accountability? What the frik is that?
Amen. Also, spend your life as physically fit as you can.
Amen. Also, spend your life as physically fit as you can.
At the age of 41, I am having a similar experience every few months now, with Facebook acting as a modern obituary section of the newspaper.
Our time here is short. Make the most of it, in the knowledge that one day you'll be accountable for it.
I struggle with this all of the time. I am quite sure that more is expected of me, but I struggle with determining what exactly I should do. Quite sobering.
This is why since my kid was born I barely do anything else but spend time with him. I don't want to regret having missed time I could have spent playing around with him (as he's only just turned 3 now) having done stuff that is ultimately trivial. Sure, some things around the house don't get done as fast as they could (or in some cases at all), but years from now, I figure I won't ever say "wow, I sure wish I spent less time with the kid and put more effort into that deck."
This is why since my kid was born I barely do anything else but spend time with him.
I have passed on a few opprotunities which would have been very financially rewarding, but would have involved traveling 50% or more.
The cost wasn't worth it. I want my child to know who I am, and to be there to form her worldview.
Tempus fugit memento mori. A good friend died at 35 doing something stupid while drunk. I still miss him.
N5
How true. I'm 43 and I find myself taking more names out of the Rolodex than I put in. Eternity will sneak up on all of us.
I have passed on a few opprotunities which would have been very financially rewarding, but would have involved traveling 50% or more.
Good for you, RedJack (that phrase sounds sarcastic, but I'm serious). Too many people would have taken the money, and then wonder why their kid doesn't bother with them.
Ecclesiastes 7:2: "It is better to go to a house of mourning than to go to a house of feasting, for death is the destiny of every man; the living should take this to heart."
Good to be reminded to make the most of our few days under the sun. . . .
A classmate of mine passed away the day before Thanksgiving of a heart attack. We had previously lost a classmate in a car accident a year or so after we graduated, but otherwise this is the first one....
Omne capax movet urna nomen.
Horace
(All names are shaken in death's great urn)
Crossing the threshold of 40 was a bit challenging to me. Now I'm at the cusp of 50 and seriously think about laser treatments to adjust that horror in the morning mirror to what it is supposed to look like. :P
It's ok though. I've lost 35 pounds and gained noticeable strength in the past year, and plan to continue to improve what is within my grasp to improve. I figure it's now or never if I'm going to reclaim some of the fitness I had 20 years ago, in order to carry it forward for another decade.
So, no. I'm not really coming to grips with getting old, yet. Still fighting it with all I have.
Still, were that eternity door to silently slide up next to me, I like to think I'd be ready to step through.
Perhaps it's just me, but losing a parent will do it if losing a peer doesn't first. I'm merely 35 but losing my father this year has propelled me into mid-life I suppose. My whole outlook is different. I'm in great shape, kids are still moderately young and yet, I feel old. I'm haunted by that old Alabama song: Christmas Memories now and I knew I would be because so much of who my father was is wrapped up in that song. His chair sits empty now and I've been moved to the front of the line...
Christmas Memories lyrics
There's a blanket of snow coverin' up the old road to the house where I was
raised
Through the window I see the lights on the tree and a glow from the old
fireplace
Though it all looks the same so much as changed from the way it used to be
Christmas memories of happy years gone by
They come back to me and keep me warm inside
Still those Christmas memories make me cry
Now the stockings are filled; the house is still and the kids are dreamin' away
There's that old easy chair, me and Daddy sat there waitin' for Santa's sleigh
Now Daddy's gone but we carry on 'cause the little ones will need...
Christmas memories of happy years gone by
They come back to me and keep me warm inside
Oh they mean so much to me
Those Christmas memories make me cry
As a Christian, I look forward to being remade in God's image. Not sure what all of that entails, but it will be (looking for a word to communicate "awesome" in the classical meaning of the word before "awesome" was it was trivialized).
sincerely
cheddarman
Eventually you get more used to it.
I was looking at my Pop Warner Football picture from the 6th grade, I'm 41 now. One teammate died several years ago and it just seemed strange that that was the case.
In my last week in High School I was shocked that a kid two classes ahead of mine died (almost instantaneously) of meningitis.
My father was shaken when his YOUNGER sister was the first sibling in the family to die, of cancer.
Death sucks, man...
It's not like we get a choice. I just hope my body gives out before my brain does.
Our time here is short. Make the most of it, in the knowledge that one day you'll be accountable for it.
Amen!
"Physical training has some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present and the age to come." 1 Tim. 4:8
I've often wondered if you are part of a group if it is better to go towards the beginning, the middle, or the end? For instance the last of the WWI veteran are now dead. Would you want to be in the last few?
To me the chief reason to live a long life would be to enjoy as much time possible with your children, but if they are grown and doing well, your spouse has died, all your friends your age are gone as well, old age limitations abound, will you still rage against the dying light or be weary with grief over seeing so many go before you, and be looking forward to seeing the Lord?
"Physical training has some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present and the age to come." 1 Tim. 4:8
I've often wondered if you are part of a group if it is better to go towards the beginning, the middle, or the end?
It's an interesting question. My grandmother was 96 when she passed away. She had lost her husbands 13 years earlier, but all of her children (15) were still alive as well as a multitude of grandchildren, she always had visitors and someone to take her somewhere and that sort of thing. That being said, in the last few years of her life she would occasionally mention that it was lonely to out live so many people. Basically all of her peers (friends, siblings, husband) had all gone before her and it is lonely in it's own way to be the last of your peers even when surrounded by people who love you dearly.
I've often wondered if you are part of a group if it is better to go towards the beginning, the middle, or the end?
If you've been to an old age home, and seen five female names on the door for every male name, and you're a guy, you realize you don't have to worry about it. Most likely, you will go first!
One thing about age that I like is that, relative to other people, I'm losing less because, as an extremely ugly person with an short, scrawny body, I am losing nothing with age. Becoming just another bald, wrinkled, grey nebbish is a relative improvement for me.
Most likely, you will go first!
I suppose leaving my wife behind will be "easier" than burying her...
Reminds me of a line from Steel Magnolias, Time marches on, and pretty soon you'll find it's marching across your face.
The reality of finding that you too are getting older is a tart bite of sandwich.
Amen
Quick, pass me a bottle of something strong to drink so I can put this out of my mind.
The Hourglass Eyes of Raistlin Majere. Tempus Fugit
Spacebunny: "That being said, in the last few years of her life she would occasionally mention that it was lonely to out live so many people. Basically all of her peers (friends, siblings, husband) had all gone before her and it is lonely in it's own way to be the last of your peers even when surrounded by people who love you dearly."
We hear the same thing from my husband's great Aunt, who has classic Alzheimer's. She's 90 and has outlived all 11 siblings, friends, etc. My MIL is her prominent caregiver now and while she's much beloved by us all, you can tell she's ready to meet her Lord.
The pagan annually celebrates his birth. The Christian celebrates his mortal end.
I lost two childhood friends as a teen. (one suicide, the other an accident). I lost another (heart attack) when both 37. We both competed for the same girl at one time. We almost lost my dad, in 2010. He now has a pacemaker-defib regulated by a microchip. Technically, he's a cyborg. My mom's (70s) mother is still alive approaching 100.
I'm approaching mid-50s myself, and I'm not certain I have experienced mid-life yet. (although I certainly do feel it at times) Have yet to get my Corvette, or Harley. Lost my boat 10 years past, trying to get that back. No kids of my own, and now I'm a great-uncle. Life sure is weird, and God has a terrible sense of humor at times...
One thing about age that I like is that, relative to other people, I'm losing less because, as an extremely ugly person with an short, scrawny body, I am losing nothing with age.
Unlike some guys, it did not bother me, in my 30s, that I had become invisible to teenage girls, because I had always been invisible to teenage girls.
Conversely, you can always die choking on roaches in an attempt to win a free pest.
Got to be a Darwin Award in there somehow...
At 53, I have buried both of my parents and an older brother. My dad was not a man of faith. The night he died of cancer at home, at 84 years of age, he had fallen and my mom had to call the Hospice nurse to help get him back into bed. His last words before the nurse gave him a shot of morphine were: Let's get this over with. I am the only born again Christian in my family. I was 21 when I started reading the Bible of my own accord and as I read the words of Jesus I realized I most certainly was going to give an account and it was the most frightening thing I had ever experienced. I had no rest until I contacted the pastor of a little Baptist church where the gospel was explained to me for the first time. I am still amazed at His incredible mercy.
My parents, and especially my father are getting many of those characteristics that old people get. Characteristics that many younger people find exasperating and even irritating.
Stuff like being set in your ways, being uninterested in any idea or concept that has emerged in the last 30 years, and dismissing anything disagreeable as "stupid".
I tell my siblings to savor each and every minute of my parents company for I'm afraid that Mom and Pop's time is winding down.
Me? I'm a middle aged man. Sometimes when the moon is full, I can see that Grim Reaper way off in the distance.
@VoxDay Our time here is short. Make the most of it, in the knowledge that one day you'll be accountable for it."
The really important accountability happens while you are living, not after you die. Once can't make amends, set things right, do the right thing, be a good person or anything else once worm food.
Stuff like being set in your ways, being uninterested in any idea or concept that has emerged in the last 30 years, and dismissing anything disagreeable as "stupid".
Just have to wonder how much of that stems from simply having "seen it all" to a degree and recognizing that a lot of stuff simply IS stupid. I'm nowhere near that old and yet I see quite a bit of stuff as stupid that's done by people today.
Not saying they're right about any particular thing, just curious if that's the mindset behind it or is it just easier to dismiss certain things like that.
I expect to pass through this world but once. Any good, therefore, that I can do or any kindness I can show to any fellow creature, let me do it now. Let me not defer or neglect it for I shall not pass this way again.
Stephen Grellet (attributed)
The really important accountability happens while you are living, not after you die. Once can't make amends, set things right, do the right thing, be a good person or anything else once worm food.
While denying any real reason to care.
The really important accountability happens while you are living, not after you die.
Hardly. Eat, drink, be merry, take advantage of everyone and everything without fear! Create your own morality and live by it, no matter what it does to others. In fact, ignore the entire concept of "accountability" at all as it's just a man-made term created by the weak to hold back the strong from taking what they want from them.
No, when you stand before God and have every iota of falsehood stripped away from you and the dead-certain knowledge that there's nothing you can say or do that will fool Him and that you are totally at His mercy, you will know what accountability really is. And it won't be a tossed-off platitude designed to make you feel good about yourself and give you a little pat on the back for being such a great person.
VD and I are about the same age and I have begun to notice recently that the dead and dying of this mid-forties age group are passing by like mile markers on the turnpike in a car that is gradually, yet surely accelerating.
Our time here is indeed short. Thanks for the reminder of being accountable someday. May we endeavor to do good till the last.
@Edjamacator
An example: My father apparently finds the notion that their may be intelligent life elsewhere in the universe to be wrong. I personally believe that there is a strong possibility. My father, bless his heart thinks it a silly, dumb notion. We are both Christians by the way.
I don't bring up the subject because my tongue hurts when I have to bite it so hard.
> The really important accountability happens while you are living, not after you die.
I'm sure a lot of people will wish that were true.
There's no reason to fear death unless there is a judgment.
My father, bless his heart thinks it a silly, dumb notion. We are both Christians by the way.
Ok, well, that's something currently unprovable either way. I see what you're saying but was thinking more along the lines of "fads" and ways of thinking that are provable.
We all suffer, you don't have to be hit in the nose or have an illness. Most suffering comes internally. Death, is the end of that, life is just a fight with our demons. We all have them, and pain is real but most of it sufferable. I don't think death is a thing to fear but a place to be reborn. That's my opinion, take it for what it is worth.
Ah gee, facing one's mortality is depressing, but I guess it is necessary. I look forward to eternity with the Father, but feel sadness for those who have already left us.
The worst is when I doubt a person's faith. If they denied Christ, the life was a waste, one good is it to gain the whole world yet forfeit your soul?
In the end, only one can judge. Posts like these inspire me to remember to trust God, and to be a witness, salt, light.
Vox,
Great post. Sounds like this guy has had a greater impact on your life than you expected.
It reminds me that, while I was very busy thinking of my life, God had people around me who were pretty good people. Liking them or not had more to do with "my progress" than their goodness.
I wish i were less selfish.
As I age, I still feel pretty good. I'm not, uh, I'm not scared at all. I just feel kind of... feel kind of invincible.
Ecclesiastes 1
1The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.
2Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
3What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?
4One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
5The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.
6The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.
7All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.
8All things are full of labour; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.
9The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
10Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
11There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.
12I the Preacher was king over Israel in Jerusalem.
13And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.
14I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.
15That which is crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered.
16I communed with mine own heart, saying, Lo, I am come to great estate, and have gotten more wisdom than all they that have been before me in Jerusalem: yea, my heart had great experience of wisdom and knowledge.
17And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit.
18For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
Zek, been there. One day your warranty will expire. You'll know it when it happens.
I just got back from lunch with a friend and he was talking about his dad and how his dad used to say "If I knew I was going to live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself."
Good words there. Apply that guideline to the eternal as well as the physical world and it's excellent advice.
Zek, been there. One day your warranty will expire. You'll know it when it happens.
I just got back from lunch with a friend and he was talking about his dad and how his dad used to say "If I knew I was going to live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself."
Good words there. Apply that guideline to the eternal as well as the physical world and it's excellent advice.
@Edjamacator
The fact that you can't, in the absence of a God, think of any good reason to live your life in such a way that the interests of others are taken into account only reflects your own lack of imagination, compassion and moral instincts.
@James Dixon: > The really important accountability happens while you are living, not after you die.
I'm sure a lot of people will wish that were true.
It's not a matter of people wishing it were true. It's a matter of people living their lives knowing it is true.
One of my classmates was diagnosed with cancer our junior year of high school. She went through the whole treatment thing, and was in full remission by the time we graduated.
She got married right out of high school, started working as a secretary locally, had a couple of kids, divorced, became manager of the local business, ....
This summer, weeks before our class was supposed to have a thirty year reunion, she found out the cancer was back. I don't think she lived 60 days after that.
Kind of pulls you up short.
farmer Tom
At 47 (as of exactly today, in fact), I do feel blessed, because I have not yet lost anyone in my immediate or extended family except my grandparents (the last two of them only recently). In that sense, I still feel young, especially since getting fit and healthy again. I think God does bless extended families who serve Him. My wife and I both come from 3 generations of devout Christians, including missionaries, preachers and teachers.
At 44, my wife still has two surviving grandparents, both in their 90s. We both come from long-lived stock, and I intend for us to make the most of it in order to be there for our children, since we didn't start having kids until our 30s. Our youngest is only 4. I shudder at the thought that one or both of us would not be there to see all of our grandchildren. Even more so, I shudder at the thought of the world my children will have to deal with over the next 3-4 decades. As some of the Ilk might have noticed, I recently became a little obsessed with health, nutrition and fitness. I'm trying not to go overboard, but I fully intend to be active up into my 90s, Lord willing, and I fully intend to be reading the Bible to my grandchildren, and maybe even great-grandchildren, as I do with my children around the supper table.
May Lord Yama visit you soon, Vox.
"...only reflects your own lack of imagination, compassion and moral instincts."
Purposeless Driven Life. Or, Soapbox To... well, we can't say Heaven now can we... Let's just go with Utopia and forget about Uncle Joe's try at it.
I skipped to the bottom of the thread and I'm a bit disappointed... nobody is arguing RC v Protestant or Arminian vs Calvinist.... what's the matter with you guys? There aren't even any pedantic, hubris-saturated rips to indulge in. I guess I'll have to wait for the George Noory crowd in the small hours this time...
A poignant post from a man who obviously has come to realize the fleeting nature of this life.
Although I will say that this circumspection is hardly befitting the Award Winning Cruelty Artist.
I tell my family that steering clear of disease depends on 2 well-practiced trains of thought.
1. Forgive everyone in who mistreated you in your formative years and don't let memories of their past actions affect you now.
2. If people insult or threaten you in the present, forgive them on the spot, but humbly consider if their criticism is justified. If it is, apologize, but never blame yourself emotionally.
Given time, anger undermines the immune system, which is how all auto-immune diseases get started in th first place.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J36CRZzm9vg
I tell my family that steering clear of disease depends on 2 well-practiced trains of thought.
1. Forgive everyone in who mistreated you in your formative years and don't let memories of their past actions affect you now.
2. If people insult or threaten you in the present, forgive them on the spot, but humbly consider if their criticism is justified. If it is, apologize, but never blame yourself emotionally.
Given time, anger undermines the immune system, which is how all auto-immune diseases get started in th first place.
I understand what you are saying, but remember the words of Jesus even if you do or don't believe in the Son of God. "Love one another as you love yourself."
Most people don't love themselves, therefore I say love one another as you should love yourself. The demons are strong in the mind of men therefore how can you love anyone when you hate yourself? Look in the mirror and ask what you see. Then understand why. Evil seems to comes from the fact we don't think much of ourselves only our ego. Lose the ego and the love flows.
I sometimes think that a touched person is full of love because he doesn't know enough to have an ego. And when he is placed in the prison that is called public school he gets used to being called a "retard". But he exemplifies the better nature of man, and it is up to us to see that some gifts are not what they seem. Just as death is nothing to fear.
> The fact that you can't, in the absence of a God, think of any good reason to live your life in such a way that the interests of others are taken into account only reflects your own lack of imagination, compassion and moral instincts.
The fact that, absent God, you think any of the ones you come up with are meaningful reflects your inability to reason.
> It's not a matter of people wishing it were true. It's a matter of people living their lives knowing it is true.
Well, if you know it, then you should be able to prove it to someone who doesn't, shouldn't you? So why don't you present your proof. We'll wait.
Images in the mirror appear more unfamiliar as time passes.
The fact that, absent God, you think any of the ones you come up with are meaningful reflects your inability to reason. James Dixon
Its so perfect. Tad just demonstrated that he does not take the interests of others into account, a lack of imagination, compassion, and moral instincts.
Its that age old atheist autism that just has to come out, kinda like the pox.
Genuine question: Is there a reason to continue living?
I really don't get it. Maybe I never did. I don't remember any time when I understood why people don't kill themselves. I wish I could say it was the alcohol, but I think it's just a catalyst.
So from a nonchurchian Christian perspective, what's the point?
As a Christian, I look forward to being remade in God's image. Not sure what all of that entails, but it will be (looking for a word to communicate "awesome" in the classical meaning of the word before "awesome" was it was trivialized).
The word is...Radical!
"We're all going to die; we just hope, not before Christmas."
-- Irish proverb
@JamesDixon The fact that, absent God, you think any of the ones you come up with are meaningful reflects your inability to reason.
You set a low bar by asking me to demonstrate any meaningful reasons to live a life that takes others into account. It's pretty clear that "meaningful" can mean different things to different people. You can do better....Right?
Genuine question: Is there a reason to continue living?
I really don't get it. Maybe I never did. I don't remember any time when I understood why people don't kill themselves. I wish I could say it was the alcohol, but I think it's just a catalyst.
So from a nonchurchian Christian perspective, what's the point?
It's like asking what the point of creation is. God assigns the value. Don't make the mistake of thinking creation is past event. God is still in the process of creating. God is imparting his divine life into us in order to make us like himself. This life is part of that process. If that doesn't seem valuable you aren't paying attention.
@Anonymous Genuine question: Is there a reason to continue living?
Really? Because it's fun. And likely far more fun than non existence.
"So from a nonchurchian Christian perspective, what's the point?"
Call it a test or what ever you want, but I will guarantee you one thing. At the lowest point in my life I told someone something (Ready to end it all) and they came back later and said I understand. Do you really think Jesus (As non Curchian) took the whipping he did and the crucifixion for nothing? Of course you do not, stay the course and be a good soldier and let the suffering be the outlet to a world full Of madness.
Tad, I suggest you get off this ride now as you are way too short for it.
Tad, get a real life, won't you? You could care less if people are hurting and you know it.
Why do you hate yourself?
@Jartstar
Then why am I constantly looking down at you?
@Outlaw
It's not myself I hate as much as it is that hate that fools like you who haven't figured out the most basic principles of life yet need to be schooled.
"What's the point?"
"Where I am, I don't know, I'll never know, in the silence you don't know, you must go on, I can't go on, I'll go on."
-- Samuel Beckett
Just to let you know you're in good company.
Not to be glib, but try to think of it this way: God made the universe, the heavens and the earth, all things seen and unseen. And we are part of what He made. And since He made it from nothing, as it were, He made it from Himself.
There is a very real sense in which we are literally made of God.
When you think of it that way, maybe you are less ready to discount the importance of what and who you are, and what and who you're made of.
"the kingdom of your self, sailing"
-- Frank O'Hara
Do yourself a favor, go read Frank O'Hara's great, joyous poem "A True Account of Talking to the Sun at Fire Island".
Reading it is a bit like talking to the sun yourself. You get a nice tan afterwards.
"It's not myself I hate as much as it is that hate that fools like you who haven't figured out the most basic principles of life yet need to be schooled."
Well, Tad, not to be ego centric, but would you define life?
Speaking of getting old...
How 'bout this thread?
I think I will be waiting a long damn time for Tad to define life. Oh, and Vitus, what is new is always old.
My husband and I have buried both our Mothers in the last two years. They were both born the same year. His Mom had a muscular degenerative disorder which is inherited, killed his grandfather and is currently killing his uncle. He's got a 50/50 crap shoot. My Mom had breast cancer in 1989, beat it (although her older sister did not), and it came back 18 months ago. Both their husbands, older than their wives, believed they would die before their women and planned accordingly. Funny thing, plans.
My sister and I were sitting in a waiting room. One among the many, many, many days we sat in waiting rooms and hospitals knowing without a miracle our Mom was not going to make it this time and she said something like this: We need to make sure we get checked, stay healthy, eat right, exercise, and do everything we can to make sure.....As if we can "make sure"! And I said, Hey. I've been planning since 1989 to die of breast cancer. It's not if, it's probably when. There isn't a damn thing I can do about genetics. I might spend some time doing those things, but what I'm not going to do is spend a second worrying about it or putting my time into things that are not important.
Where I have gone wrong is those times I didn't remember that.
You set a low bar by asking me to demonstrate any meaningful reasons to live a life that takes others into account. It's pretty clear that "meaningful" can mean different things to different people.
So who judges whether you have met your relative goals in this area, Tad?
O well for him who lives at ease
With garnered gold in wide domain,
Nor heeds the splashing of the rain,
The crashing down of forest trees.
O well for him who ne'er hath known
The travail of the hungry years,
A father grey with grief and tears,
A mother weeping all alone.
But well for him whose foot hath trod
The weary road of toil and strife,
Yet from the sorrows of his life.
Builds ladders to be nearer God.
Oscar Wilde
At the ripe young age of 74 I have seen a great deal of what this world is and has to offer. I know beyond a doubt there is a God. I definitely believe in the Lord Jesus my Redeemer. How anyone could believe in the innate goodness of man certainly hasn't observed the would be gods I have
Many have gone by, my parents, sister, many, many acquaintances, but God has me here for a purpose. You know the scale has tipped when you attend more funerals than weddings. Oh, yeah-don't recognize that old man in the mirror, but still enjoy working (all four full time jobs). Enjoy what God has for you, this life is just a vapor.
So from a nonchurchian Christian perspective, what's the point?
There is no point to living. Really, though, why does there need to be a point?
And I said, Hey. I've been planning since 1989 to die of breast cancer. It's not if, it's probably when. There isn't a damn thing I can do about genetics. I might spend some time doing those things, but what I'm not going to do is spend a second worrying about it or putting my time into things that are not important.
Where I have gone wrong is those times I didn't remember that.
This wasn't directed at me, but I maybe it's the mustard seed I needed. The truth is that we all die and there's no escaping it. Every obnoxious, retarded day we don't kill ourselves we're just waiting for death. So maybe it's also true that being alive right now is more than nothing. Even if it's just a tiny bit more, and that tiny bit is just shit. Might as well make a little shit castle out of it.
Still nothing Christian about that. I'll sleep on it. (The O'Hara poem was nice.)
There is no point to living. Really, though, why does there need to be a point?
Because if there isn't a point I believe I'd start killing people. Or maybe not, I dunno.
(Really oughta anonymize my IP before saying stuff like that. Damn liquor.)
"(Really oughta anonymize my IP before saying stuff like that. Damn liquor.)"
I wouldn't worry about it you are no threat to me. People seem to miss that the difference between the words and the ability. I am sure not dialing 911 in a frantic liberal fashion, but merely musing at your day dreams. Don't worry. They are not coming for you.
Because if there isn't a point I believe I'd start killing people. Or maybe not, I dunno.
I got an idea. Why don't you practice on yourself first? If you find you like it, you could take it up as a hobby.
Remember the motto of the Church of Euthanasia:
SAVE THE PLANET
KILL YOURSELF.
Tad, if you are still checking in, you could use some of that Church. Nobody likes you, and deep down, you know you are bewildered by your reflexive moronity. You know there is only one way out for you. I am sure your relativist, make-it-up-as necessary morality can be adjusted to ease your path to secular enlightenment.
Do it for the children, Tad, do it for the children.
Zen)
He is drunk, let it be and just be amused. Most people don't think it is funny but they don't live in Texas, I find it quite amusing as a I do a drunk Texan. And now he is worried, just leave him be. Ha!
I figure he is not a Texan since he is worried.
Zen0 I meant.
@ Anonymous
The first verse that comes to mind is "you are not your own, you were bought for a price." If you are a Christian you live for Him and to serve Him. As His bride, He chose YOU to spread His gospel and go into all the world. That is the point. You already are dead, now Christ lives in you man.
When I turned 40 I felt a sense of accomplishment- I thought "Wow. I managed to NOT get myself killed! Well done sir."
Most of us will be forgotten before 2 or 3 generations pass. Ask yourself - do you know your great grandparent's names? How about your great great grandparents. Your genetic endowments are diluted before long as well.
There is NO hope outside of God the Father and His son Jesus Christ. The older I get the more I understand the utter corruption of humanity and the unfathomable mercy of God manifest in His Son.
Now the thought of what awaits the children of God in the next life is very exciting!
"However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" 1 Cor 2:9
Anyway..
The world will spin on without us. We'll be forgotten soon enough. Expand the Kingdon of God where and when you can.
"This wasn't directed at me, but I maybe it's the mustard seed I needed. The truth is that we all die and there's no escaping it. Every obnoxious, retarded day we don't kill ourselves we're just waiting for death. So maybe it's also true that being alive right now is more than nothing. Even if it's just a tiny bit more, and that tiny bit is just shit. Might as well make a little shit castle out of it.
Still nothing Christian about that. I'll sleep on it. (The O'Hara poem was nice.)"
Anon when you feel the courage to talk to a dying man you are welcome if you ever come to the DFW area (KD5BGO) startpage (www.startpage,com) it and look me up I will be glad to sit down and talk to you.
Use Google startpage returns a null.
zen0,
Yeah, that's the other way out. And I've always been kinda chickenshit, to be honest. But he did ask.
Outlaw X,
I wish we could talk about this stuff in church. Doesn't it seem important? Right now it seems like the sort of thing we should talk about in church. DFW seems so far away right now.
Lookit me working out my problems over the internet. What a fucked up world.
Come on. Dance, Thaddeus.
"Lookit me working out my problems over the internet. What a fucked up world."
It may be but you're not, I just gave the my address, with my HAM call sign. But I do it every time as required when I talk on the radio. You don't need a church you need God, we all do and when you are low and feeling bad remember I am here as you are, and welcome you. If I being the bastard I am welcome you to sit down and talk how much less will God do?
Anonymous, are you familiar with the Butterfly Effect, and the now proven Seven Degrees of Separation theory?
It's not always clear or easy to know exactly how important you or anyone else just might be in the grand scheme of things. Something to think about.
Anonymous,
If you're looking for Christian reasons not to kill yourself, the simple answer is because God doesn't want you to. He has demands of you, and one of them is a life of sacrifice in service to His will.
If you're looking for a human answer, my first is "curiosity". You'll get eternity anyway, and then any suffering you undergo here will be trivial, so why rush it? Meanwhile, see where life can go. What is there to fear?
You don't need a church you need God
This.
Do it for the children, Tad, do it for the children.
+1
If you're looking for a human answer, my first is "curiosity". You'll get eternity anyway, and then any suffering you undergo here will be trivial, so why rush it? Meanwhile, see where life can go. What is there to fear?
I don't remember who said it but "living is hard, dying is easy." want to die a coward? It is a easy as falling off of a log.
(Really oughta anonymize my IP before saying stuff like that. Damn liquor.)
You wouldn't believe the number of times I've heard the same sentiment expressed about living in a universe that supposedly lacks sufficient purpose. (In other words, at this point, nobody is going to try to track you down and cuff you.) Attempting to analyze the statement philosophically though, since killing is about as arbitrary a response as either suicide or becoming a selfless love machine, there is really no sense in choosing one over another. This kind of approaches both a Zen and Existentialist view of reality. Existentially, since there is no reason or purpose to life, the same freedom that might allow you to go on a killing spree also frees you to do anything else that suits your fancy. In a certain sense, once you accept that life is meaningless, everything becomes meaningful.
By anyway, you schmucks can die if you want. I'm going to live forever, and I don't mean through my art. :)
A lie begets a lie
i have enjoyed my life and was always active and in good shape. i now find myself suffering from ailments that i never thought would effect me. bad hips, mild heart problems, arthritis, jeez seems to be no end to it. Christ will indeed judge me. i hope golf has some redeeming qualities.
I have decided getting old indeed sucks, but so far, it beats the alternative...
> It's pretty clear that "meaningful" can mean different things to different people.
In your case, I guess so.
> You can do better....Right?
Probably. But in your case, why would I bother?
So true...
One thing I liked about living in Charlotte versus the northeast was that it was like a mecca of youth, no graveyards and no real reminders of death. All around us were money, concerts, pretty clothes, hapless colors to throw on a canvas...Moving back to the rustbelt its more boomers, more elder care stores, graveyards are the best places to run in and pray at...Places like this constantly remind you to be thankful as God keeps your foot from slipping. Yet remain aware of making the best choices to attempt to keep in good health. To bottom line it, even when I've made all the right decisions, played the right moves and bodies still break down.
We simply never know how life is going to turn out but God's promises stand for eternity. In recent months its been disturbing and utterly morbid to watch loved ones be struck down with stroke, cancer and other aliments in their relative youth. Somehow, someway, I play the optimism card and keep the helm or household encouraged.
Anyways, this month we've dealt with the "I don't want to live anymore b/c the stroke has weakened me." These are normal feelings/moods that everyone might experience, we simply walk through them, wait them out, talk about it and the next day is usually better.
A classmate of mine died a few years ago. She was the student council president, had an outgoing personality that shown like a miniature sun, a fun person to be around. Little did I know at that time in high school that she was already on the road to becoming an alcoholic.
Last time I met her it was by accident, we were both in the same college town. She had just scored some weed and the only thing she could talk about was what booze she liked the best. I left without making any future plans to see each other again.
Not too many years later I heard she did some years in prison for dealing and/or possession of cocaine.
A decade and a half passed and then I heard that she was dead. Basically she died from the accumulated effects of years of drug and alcohol abuse. At the time she died she had straightened up and had a steady job. The way it was told to me, her heart just stopped.
@Tad
The fact that you can't, in the absence of a God, think of any good reason to live your life in such a way that the interests of others are taken into account only reflects your own lack of imagination, compassion and moral instincts.
Nice, but I wasn't talking about myself. I was illustrating the complete lack of true morality and meaningfulness in your viewpoint. I'm sorry that you can't stand to face the total emptiness of your mindset, but that's something you have to work through.
You can delude yourself into thinking your life has any meaning or value apart from God if you want, but it doesn't. You're just another speck of dust impotently screaming into nothingness that neither has the will or ability to hear you. You can build up whatever false ideas of meaning, accountability, and value you wish, but they are just as pointless as your entire life and the lives of all you love. You are nothing in nothingness and will be forgotten forever once everything you consider yourself to be gets snuffed out and rots away.
Those of us who know God, however, have meaning in life. We don't have to make it up ourselves and convince ourselves about it. But feel free to keep engaging in your mental masturbation vainly struggling to give your pitiful existence some kind of meaning. It's cute.
Look at the bright side; at least we won’t be stuck in this lunatic asylum forever.
Sorry about hijacking the thread guys. It's morning now and I'm sober.
Still, it's a really important question to me. I'm going to look at it as a writing project, if for no other reason than because trying to figure out if killing oneself is bad is a reason not to kill oneself.
Outlaw X,
I will definitely take you up on that if I'm ever in TX or get into HAM.
Great Martini,
Your worldview is silly.
rycamor and Azimus,
Part of my new research project is to determine whether that's true and/or biblical. God's will turns out to be rather difficult to pin down with educated guesses.
IM2L844,
You appeal to unknown consequences of possible importance, but understand this is fundamentally an existential question. To answer it satisfactorily I'll need something more than a subjective value judgment, which can change with time (or under the influence of alcohol).
Tad,
Get a life. What's the point in typing the first thing that comes into your head? That's not even good trolling. If you're hell-bent on ruining a thread, at least take some artistic pride in your work.
The classmate of mine was in her early forties when she died. Left that part out.
It's true I'm an atheist but I do give Jesus credit for the his forgiveness message.
I'm just trying to clarify the idea in the light of today's technlogy. We have a program in our advanced brain that for want of a better name, we'll call "anger." Anger is behind today's depression, anxiety, hatred, and so on. In order for us to live a full healthy life, anger must be deleted as much as possible. It will improve our relationships with others too.
IM2L844,
You appeal to unknown consequences of possible importance, but understand this is fundamentally an existential question. To answer it satisfactorily I'll need something more than a subjective value judgment, which can change with time (or under the influence of alcohol).
I wasn't really trying to directly answer your question "Is there a reason to continue living?" with a simple concrete reason. I was merely pointing out that objective reasons can exist in a fluid way without us being aware of exactly what they are. From my Christian perspective, Romans 8:6-10 answers the question to my personal satisfation.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
So, a more direct answer to your question is that there is no good reason to continue living for the humanists (the species will survive without them) except that it is God's desire that all men become saved and more spiritually minded before their body dies (1 Timothy 2:4).
Still, it's a really important question to me. I'm going to look at it as a writing project, if for no other reason than because trying to figure out if killing oneself is bad is a reason not to kill oneself.
If there is no Creator, then the pro-choice argument applies equally to killing yourself. It is your body, do whatever you want with it.
If there is a Creator, and he is the Christian God, then he owns your body and soul. That's the reason not to kill yourself; you don't have that right.
If there is a Creator, and he is the Christian God, then he owns your body and soul. That's the reason not to kill yourself; you don't have that right.
Not to mention that you're pretty screwed if you do kill yourself without knowing him. You'd have eternity to beat yourself over the head about it, though, so there's that, I guess.
@ Anonymous
I am glad that you are doing this research; I think you will be a better person for it. I could give you all sorts of platitudes, metaphors and one-off verses, but clearly you're looking for a deeper treatise than a blog thread can provide. When you do read the Word, remember to let the clearer verses explain the less clear ones. Someone gave me that advice and it has helped me immensely in my studies.
You co-bloggers from Vox are smart, but compared to me you are youngsters. I think it's time to shake you up a little bit. (I never actually dared to say this to anyone else.) Let's say you have a beloved friend or relative, and he or she dies.
I say there is no use grieving for them. You have your memories but grieving for them won't bring them back. In fact, your grieving won't do anyone any good at all! And it will only confuse your regard for the living.
The point is--do not blame yourself. If your thinking about the hereafter is confused, take some solace in that, but there is no justification for your extending grief. Sorry to allow some reality to intrude.
E. PERLINE: "I say there is no use grieving for them."
And I say there is. So what?
Age makes a difference. Though not as old as you, I have lost many a close family member over the years, on both my side and my wife's. The first one -- my sister -- was the hardest; it took a long time to get over that. But as more and more of them passed on, it got easier to handle.
And that's probably why you feel as you do -- at your advanced age, you've probably lost many close family and friends by now, so have had the opportunity to experience grief many times to the point where you're apparently inured to it.
But don't try to apply your circumstances to everybody else. These "youngsters" may not have had to live through that experience yet.
Little hamster spin, forgive me in advance...
(@ perline;
"In fact, your grieving won't do anyone any good at all! And it will only confuse your regard for the living. "
I am currently experiencing that, your comment was helpful.
It isn't that I'm in denial or heartless but there is no time to grieve. There is work to do, decision to make and they are not easy decisions. I am hated for them. I weigh the hatred over the grief wondering which is worse for others to hate me for making the best family decisions as the acting medical and legal POA or grieve? I do not have the time or interest in either in return for those who hate me. I just wish they'd leave me alone.)
Anyways, to anonymous, don't end your life, stick around and make it interesting. I don't know, there are some insurmountable situations that life can hand us, suffer it out the best you can. Hang in there...
"Water Boy" says the less experienced we are, the harder we take losses. I say that taking things hard does no one any good, least of all ourselves. If we believe in a God, we are supposed to acccept God's will, aren't we?
I'm surprised to see so much depression coming from intelligent people. Some will nurse a grudge for some real or imagined offense in the past. Others will grieve for a loved because they feel they did not show enough love for them in the past.
To avoid guilt trips and to lessen your grief, show appreciation for the uniqueness of people who are still alive. You will then become a pillar of strength for yourself and everyone else.
I thought I was done with the subject, but I must explain that like an old advertising and tutorial writer, I am trying to make biblical wisdom as clear as possible.
"Love yourself" is very poetic but for general understanding, it needs better clarification and clarification than the bibile provides.
"Love yourself" is not humility--it is pride. Pride is an offshoot of anger. If you don't believe pride is anger, try poking a hole in someone's pride.
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