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Saturday, November 24, 2012

Secession enters the mainstream

The New York Times publishes a remarkably balanced article on the topic of Texas secession:
In Texas, talk of secession in recent years has steadily shifted to the center from the fringe right. It has emerged as an echo of the state Republican leadership’s anti-Washington, pro-Texas-sovereignty mantra on a variety of issues, including health care and environmental regulations. For some Texans, the renewed interest in the subject serves simply as comic relief after a crushing election defeat. 

But for other proponents of secession and its sister ideology, Texas nationalism — a focus of the Texas Nationalist Movement and other groups that want the state to become an independent nation, as it was in the 1830s and 1840s — it is a far more serious matter. 

The official in East Texas, Peter Morrison, the treasurer of the Hardin County Republican Party, said in a statement that he had received overwhelming support from conservative Texans and overwhelming opposition from liberals outside the state in response to his comments in his newsletter. He said that it may take time for “people to appreciate that the fundamental cultural differences between Texas and other parts of the United States may be best addressed by an amicable divorce, a peaceful separation.” 
For the record, I am in favor of self-determination.  That is the key, I think, for secession supporters to win liberal/progressive support.  American liberals, for all their ability to double-think, simply cannot permit themselves to oppose self-determination, since it is one of the foundations of their perspective on foreign policy.  While some of them will be able to concoct a convoluted conceptual structure that allows them to vehemently support foreign self-determination while denying it to Americans, most of them will not.  It is too integral to their view of the world.

And for the record, I am entirely in favor of self-determination for Texans as well as the other American states.  Liberals like to point out that the "Democratic" states subsidize the "Republican" states; a fact which omits one extremely relevant point which I shall point out and walk through the math in a future post.  Secession advocates should use this fact and the self-determination argument relentlessly, as encouraging the left to declare "good riddance" will be key to winning their support for the eventual, and inevitable, secession of several American States.

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92 Comments:

Anonymous Idle Spectator November 24, 2012 7:00 AM  

Secession now, secession tomorrow, secession forever!

Anonymous p-dawg November 24, 2012 7:26 AM  

This won't happen peacefully for the same reason as last time. Too many rich people outside of Texas would lose too much money.

Blogger A November 24, 2012 7:40 AM  

Wouldn't nullification be a more realistic way to deal with health care and environmental laws, which the state could declare unconstitutional and refuse to enforce? I can understand the appeal to secession, not having any federal laws to obey or pay would be very nice for all of us, but there are other ways to deal with the disagreement of just a few federal laws.

If Texas did peacefully secede and other red states didn't, we'd have a permanent Democrat executive.

Anonymous Crude November 24, 2012 7:43 AM  

If Texas did peacefully secede and other red states didn't, we'd have a permanent Democrat executive.

I think a successful secession by Texas would simply lead to other states seceding. Not all of them of course, not even all of the red states, but it wouldn't end with Texas.

Anonymous Rosalys November 24, 2012 7:44 AM  

What makes you think they will stand aside and allow, without a fight, a prosperous chunk of the country which they need because the progressive states just cannot and will not produce the kind of wealth necessary to fund their lunatic society (the fact that their isn't enough wealth on earth to fund their crazy welfare state is beside the point). Besides the left just cannot leave people alone to be about their own business. People making decisions without their "guidance" just isn't part of their thought process. Progressives want it all! Of course the divorce may happen anyway, but it won't be amicable!

Blogger TontoBubbaGoldstein November 24, 2012 7:59 AM  

  American liberals, for all their ability to double-think, simply cannot permit themselves to oppose self-determination, since it is one of the foundations of their perspective on foreign policy.

Vox, either you were being sarcastic and I didn't "get it" (admittedly a strong possibility) or you grossly underestimate the liberal/progressive propensity to justify "breaking a few eggs" to achieve their utopian omelet.

Anonymous fnn November 24, 2012 8:04 AM  

...but there are other ways to deal with the disagreement of just a few federal laws.

I think it's more than "just a few federal laws" if you dig deep enough. The NYC-DC-Hollywood Judeo-Puritans who run the empire are fundamentally different people from the Red Staters-even though the latter generally seem to be happy about fighting the wars of the former.

Anonymous Nah November 24, 2012 8:09 AM  

"If Texas did peacefully secede and other red states didn't, we'd have a permanent Democrat executive."

Texas is going Blue soon anyway, so you'll get that permanent Democrat executive whether they secede or not.

Anonymous Crude November 24, 2012 8:11 AM  

I actually wonder if liberals / progressives would truly be willing to make such a move if Texas showed itself determined to secede, to the point of being willing to fire shots. I think that scenario is ridiculously unlikely (on the other hand, my knowledge of Texas' culture and mood is one of complete ignorance, I admit), but I imagine that if someone tried to deal with Texas seceding by using the military against Texas civilians, that would seriously run risk of escalating situations around the country.

Come to think of it, I wonder if *Alaska* would ever secede, or Hawaii. More Alaska than Hawaii, what with it being the home* of Obama and a Democrat lock.

(Yes, yes, I know, birth certificate.)

Anonymous HongKongCharlie November 24, 2012 8:28 AM  

I wonder if this could be adding fuel to the fire? Nahhh.

HKC

November 9, 2012
It’s Friday morning, and so far today, the Obama administration has posted 165 new regulations and notifications on its reguations.gov website.

In the past 90 days, it has posted 6,125 regulations and notices – an average of 68 a day.

Another 4 years or 1460 days will give us a whopping 100,000 new regulations. Or to put it another way, there are around 1,000 babies born in the District of Columbia every year. In those four years, 25 times more regulations than children will come out of DC.

Anonymous Conrad The Crazed November 24, 2012 8:52 AM  

I wish the great state of Texas all the momentum in the world on this. If by some divine miracle they go through with it, the amount of Americans trying to move to the new republic will be massive. It is my hope that my own state (Virginia) would pursue a similar initiative, but alas I'm afraid the metastasizing cancer of the District of Corruption has spread too far south into the former Old Dominion. To wit, we've voted blue in the previous 2 general elections, and currently have 2 blue senators. Not that I buy into the Team Red vs. Team Blue game anymore (awake since 2006), but still a good indication that VA is rapidly becoming a lost conservative enclave.

Having said all that, I can already imagine the comical intellectual contortions the 'staat uber alles' progressives will twist themselves into, in order to justify forcing Texas (and others)...at gunpoint...to remain in the USSA. Oh, the comedy.

Anonymous Roundtine November 24, 2012 8:55 AM  

Shots may be fired, but there won't be a war. What's already happening in California (see VDH articles) is some areas are not following federal regulations. There will be defacto secession first and a formal secession will formalize the reality on the ground. Fighting is more likely to occur in "Bleeding Kansas" areas, where red and blue are mixed together and there's no way to geographically separate the region.

Who is going to be doing the fighting? The secession movement will be non-violent, appealing to self-determination. This is the best course politically because it increases the odds that the other side will agree to reduce federal control in order to preserve the union. But also, I don't see the left winning military support. And the secessionists *should* have learned from history and will not fire the first shot.

Anonymous zen0 November 24, 2012 9:04 AM  

And the secessionists *should* have learned from history and will not fire the first shot.

What one learns from history is that if one requires the rival to fire the first shot, a first shot can be arranged.

Anonymous Stilicho November 24, 2012 9:06 AM  

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal in the eyes of their creator and endowed by Him with certain inalienable rights; among these are life, liberty, and property.

To be fair, it didn't need much fixing and a certain nostalgia leads me to just accept the original anyway. At any rate, as Yeats said, the center cannot hold, things fall apart. It's the entropy of nations.

Roundtine, you're such an optimist. That's how it started last time and soon escalated. Let's hope it's different this time.

Vox, you are being incredibly optimistic with your belief that many (if not most) liberals will accept the sef-determination argument. I suspect it will be more akin to the reaction you'd get from a bitter divorcee who is told that the alimony is ending. Hell hath no fury and all that. I think most liberals will construct the convoluted conceptual structure you wrote of in order to rationalize keeping the serfs under the yoke.

Anonymous HongKongCharlie November 24, 2012 9:14 AM  

"I don't see the left winning military support. And the secessionists *should* have learned from history and will not fire the first shot."

Learn from History, absolutely not. History has not been taught in our bestest in the world, edumajaction sistem going back several years.

This situation would just scream for a black ops. from the gubmint.

HKC

Anonymous Kickass November 24, 2012 9:19 AM  

NJ just requested a massive amount of money from the Feds for Sandy. I doubt they will be doing this anytime soon. As for Texas, it is my understanding (because I haven't been there in quite some time)that they are quite Hispanic and I would see this as being a conflict with wanting to do this due to your conclusions regarding the election.

I have a hard time seeing the states turn off the iv drip from the feds. But hey, I have been wrong before.

Anonymous Cheddarman November 24, 2012 9:23 AM  

Evangelical Christians should be strong supporters of secession, as the federal government has been the greatest tool of the left in the cultural war being fought in the U.S.

Anonymous Cheddarman November 24, 2012 9:28 AM  

If China stops buying U.S. debt, the process will accelerate. The federal govt. will have 1/3 less money to spend on buying off various constituencies in the red states.

Anonymous Stilicho November 24, 2012 9:33 AM  

N.B. The liberals and neo-cons quickly, and withoout any coherent justification, rejected the concept of self-determination for Iraq when the Kurds and Shia wanted to form their own nations, separate from the Sunni Arabs who had dominated under Hussein.

Anonymous Stilicho November 24, 2012 9:39 AM  

If China stops buying U.S. debt, the process will accelerate. The federal govt. will have 1/3 less money to spend on buying off various constituencies in the red states.

Haven't you heard? That's why we have the Federal Reserve, and, according to Krugman et al., debt that we owe "to ourselves" simply does not matter in the aggregate. Counterfeiters are not criminals, they are "loan-disadvantaged" people who have to lend to themselves.

Anonymous Battlefield USA November 24, 2012 9:45 AM  

No one needs to secede. They need a governor, legislature, and local city councils with the balls to tell the feds to take a hike. And the people of the various states are perfectly capable of electing their own governor, legislature, and local city councils to do just that... but they don't. The peoples are electing their own little state versions of Obama and O'Romney, who gyrate to the feds, and then try to convince themselves there is a difference.

Blogger W.LindsayWheeler November 24, 2012 9:46 AM  

Before you jump on the bandwagon, people should consider what Richard Evans had to say on Dr. Makow's website: Secession talk is a hoax

I kind of agree with Richard Evans and a reader from Catalonia has some good comments on what is going on in Spain with their secession movements over there.

Blogger tz November 24, 2012 9:49 AM  

Ron Paul for Governor, then secede as of the day of his inauguration. I'd move there so I could vote for both him and whatever else necessary to complete the divorce.

As a pro-lifer, if the Federal Government is murdering children, a divorce is in order as it would be for any abusive spouse. The Texas Rangers have a much better reputation than the Feds.

Or perhaps the Lakota nation - ND is energy independent, probably can be extended to SD. Add MT and WY...

The Federal Government is broke. This will affect the military. They had to call up the National Guard to go to Iraq and Afghanistan. Fighting war on more than one front is stupid, especially when the next front may be the homefront.

Anonymous Battlefield USA November 24, 2012 9:52 AM  

Evangelical Christians should be strong supporters of secession, as the federal government has been the greatest tool of the left in the cultural war being fought in the U.S.

Evangelical Christians are some of the biggest supporters of the feds fake war on terror. What are they going to do when they secede? Create a global war on terror Crusader Army?

Anonymous Battlefield USA November 24, 2012 10:08 AM  

Face it. Even if Texas, or any other state were to secede, there would have to be a internal civil war within those states... and then the feds would come in to put a stop to the... genocide.

It ain't going to happen.

Anonymous Stilicho November 24, 2012 10:09 AM  

Before you jump on the bandwagon, people should consider what Richard Evans had to say on Dr. Makow's website: Secession talk is a hoax

Do not doubt for a second that the usual suspects (DHS, Justice Dept., and proxies like the SPLC, ACLU, NAACP, etc.) are carefully tracking everyone who signs petitions or publicly proclaims support of secession. What they fail to appreciate is how little good that will do them should the genie ever get out of the bottle. The rabbit people always fear and try to manipulate the hunters, but that sort of manipulation only works when the hunters are quiescent and not actually hunting. It is rather foolish of the rabbit people to sponsor a fake hunt in the hopes of identifying potential hunters because there is a very real risk of it turning into a real hunt. This is especially true if the hunters don't realize it's supposed to be a fake hunt.

Anonymous Susan November 24, 2012 10:12 AM  

tz, they have been calling the National Guard to fight wars since Viet Nam. Nothing new here.

OT Did you guys see the link on Drudge today about the guy in Maine sent to jail for smacking his wife with his penis after she told him she was leaving him for a guy from Pakistan she met online? This is not a joke from the Onion.

Anonymous Godfrey November 24, 2012 10:15 AM  

but what about the... USA! USA! USA! crowd? Most of whom are evangelical Christians?

Isn't interesting that just as recently as eighty years ago some, if not a majority of, Protestant Christians were pacifistic? Now the flag, along with the military, is a sacrement. It just goes to show the enormous amount of power the cultural elites have to sway and manipulate public opinion.

There actually used to be a large anti-war sentiment in this country. Especailly after WWI. It is hard to believe now with the literal military worship that goes on in this country.

Blessed be the peace-maker?... what?...who is that?...

Shout him down! USA! USA! USA!...

Anonymous Stilicho November 24, 2012 10:16 AM  

Face it. Even if Texas, or any other state were to secede, there would have to be a internal civil war within those states... and then the feds would come in to put a stop to the... genocide.

It ain't going to happen.


Completely wrong, because you fail to appreciate the fact that it is inevitable. Only the timeline and the exact form are debatable at this point. Collapse is baked into the cake. It is highly unlikely that any conflict would follow the same format as the last time (large opposing armies). Insurgent style revolts have a better record against modern armies. Of course, the most effective way to fight such an insurgency is not strictly militarily, but with a brutal, totalitarian police state.

Anonymous Roundtine November 24, 2012 10:34 AM  

Roundtine, you're such an optimist. That's how it started last time and soon escalated. Let's hope it's different this time.

Last time the union side also had religious fervor. Unless global warming becomes a truly religious cause (which it might!) I don't see the union side having the moral push to war.

Anonymous Cinco November 24, 2012 10:50 AM  

Who fires first is so much less important than who wins.

Anonymous Anonymous November 24, 2012 11:08 AM  

"Liberals like to point out that the "Democratic" states subsidize the "Republican" states; a fact which omits one extremely relevant point which I shall point out and walk through the math in a future post. "

Lemme guess. Cities in blue states with piles of NAMs.

Anonymous Anonymous November 24, 2012 11:14 AM  

Ahem. Speaking as a conservative Texan who is absolutely certain that we are the best state with the prettiest girls and collectively cut from superior moral cloth than the other 49 states......

Secession is a dumb idea. Texas is better as part of the US, for many reasons, including we get to look down our noses at the rest of ya'll. And the US is better with Texas as a part of it, because Texas swagger is part of our shared cultural heritage.

And, yeah, there are a bunch of valid economic reasons, but those are boring.

While a certain slice of Texans support secession, and another slice pays lip service to supporting secession, the vast majority of us think its a silly idea and want no part of it.

Sorry, Vox, but you were wrong from the get-go, when you said the NYT published a balanced article about ANYTHING, much less the top state in the union.

Anonymous Mike M. November 24, 2012 11:25 AM  

I'm sorry, Vox, but I have to disagree with you on liberals accepting self-determination. They will oppose it, just as they did in the 1860s.

Snobbery and sanctimonious self-righteousness are two of the cornerstones of modern liberalism. There is NO horror to which a liberal will not stoop if he can feed his arrogance by doing so. Self-determination deprives the Left of serfs to be ruled by Leftists. And they will do anything to keep their serfs in shackles.

Now, there is another issue nobody has mentioned. There are very, very few Blue states. Merely states dominated by Blue counties. Maryland, for example - considered a fanatically liberal state. Obama carried 6 of 24 counties. You'll find most other "blue" states are the same way - and the disenfranchised in those states are furious. We've got to live with the Left in our faces every day.

Anonymous Krul November 24, 2012 11:32 AM  

I'm sorry, Vox, but I have to disagree with you on liberals accepting self-determination. They will oppose it, just as they did in the 1860s.

The only reason they opposed it back then was because they would have lost all the revenue from tariffs to the CSA. I don't think there's such a pecuniary motive to keep Texas in the Union at present, though I could be wrong. I'll bet Nate knows.

Anonymous p-dawg November 24, 2012 11:39 AM  

Hey Anonymous, I have an idea: Speak for yourself. Have you conducted a survey of all Texans? No? Then how could you possibly know what "the vast majority" of us believe or think? Go ahead and state your own opinion, but I'll thank you not to state mine for me.

Blogger SolemnSentinel November 24, 2012 11:50 AM  

Interesting thoughts here, but it's all moot. Texas will never be able to secede primarily due to it having two of the largest military bases in the world (Bliss and Hood), and many other high use military installations. The USSR would never let Texas go or even try to go.

Anonymous zen0 November 24, 2012 11:51 AM  

The Quebecois got as far as a secessionist vote in 1995, but their grievances were based on ethnic considerations of French cultural nationalism, which is a more cohesive force than vague concepts like liberty or constitutionalism.

The way they did it was to establish a States-rights type of party that eventually won provincial government, plus an auxiliary Quebec-first unit in the federal parliament.

In the end, they were defeated (by 1% in the referendum) due to wads of federal campaign cash and the "ethnic" (Jewish) vote.

[ I know a lot of people here are not to happy about THAT scenario ]

Anonymous Good Will November 24, 2012 12:06 PM  

Once the successionist movement (in Texas) gets going, liberals who want to leave will find ample conservative buyers willing to pay a premium for their property (if they'll just get out of Texas!). Hence, who will complain about moving? The entire state could go Red in quick succession.

Of course, that's until demographics kick in and the brown children of South Texas formally appeal to the Northern Union to welcome its prodigal son back into the socialist fold.

Anonymous Enoch Powell November 24, 2012 12:11 PM  

The problem is that we are not talking about self determination for Texas. We are talking about self determination for White Texans. If Texas succeeds, the immediately follows the White/Hispanic civil war in Texas. Taking Texas out of the U.S. solves no problems at all since one of our most deadly problems as a country is nonWhites. We also do not want the support of Leftists. If they support us on any one thing, they will expect us, spoiled brats that they are, to support and surrender to them on EVERYTHING ELSE.

Anonymous Josh November 24, 2012 12:20 PM  

If Texas succeeds, the immediately follows the White/Hispanic civil war in Texas.

Do you know anything about Texas? White Texans have been living with hispanics for 400 years.

Same thing with blacks in the South. We're not going to see massive race wars in the south between blacks and whites.

Anonymous Jack Amok November 24, 2012 12:22 PM  

American liberals, for all their ability to double-think, simply cannot permit themselves to oppose self-determination, since it is one of the foundations of their perspective on foreign policy. While some of them will be able to concoct a convoluted conceptual structure that allows them to vehemently support foreign self-determination while denying it to Americans, most of them will not. It is too integral to their view of the world.

Vox, you're flat-out wrong here. Liberals will most certainly find a way to oppose self-determination at home. They do it on a yearly basis. I live in the rural part of King County, WA. Seattle is in King County. 7 of the 9 county commissioners come from metro Seattle. We've wanted to secede from Seattle for years, but the libs who run the place oppose it at every turn. If they can't impose any of their liberal do-gooding on us, they'd have to impose it all on themselves.

No, liberals would oppose state self-determination, likely by claiming self-determination by white, conservatives was just some raciss plot to oppress the NAMs living in the urban areas. Texas self-determination is illegitimate you see, because the blacks living in Houston don't want it.

I suspect the blue-within-red (and red-within-blue) urban-nonurban divide also factors high in your " one extremely relevant point which I shall point out and walk through the math in a future post."

Oh, Rountine, as far as learning from history goes, if people learned from history we wouldn't have to worry about this because we wouldn't have conservatives that supported big government, and we wouldn't have "Progressives" of any sort, neither philosophy having a good track record.

Anonymous AXCrom November 24, 2012 12:28 PM  

We have the same problem here in Texas that Colorado and Washingston State are having, from my POV the majority of people that seem to be moving here are from 1. California, 2. New York and 3. Illinois. They come here for the jobs, and bring their failed politics with them. Houston ten years ago I would see "Don't Mess With Texas" bumper stickers all over the place, nowadays I see three times the "Coexist" and "Obama2012" for every "Molon Labe" or Texas flag sticker. If I am not mistaken, Austin TX currently has a petition to secede from Texas...

If even the Union lets Texas go peacefully, we will still have to deal with a militant Mexico and the narcotraficantes backing the Federales on this one. Plenty of enemies are inside the gates already, the front line will be everywhere. Secession will be bloody.

Anonymous cheddarman November 24, 2012 12:53 PM  

We are only now hearing the rumblings of the comming storm, the tornado has not yet even formed.

Wait and see what happens after

1) we unable to continue the game of extend and pretend with the banks, and they come tumbling down (again), and are bailed out (again) by tax payers
2) the U.S. Dollar looses its status as the world reserve currency, and we can no longer export our inflation and subsidize our debt by selling t-notes to Korea, Japan, China and other countries
3) the state gets more agressive in consolidating its power

Anonymous Bob November 24, 2012 12:55 PM  

The Left will NEVER support seccesion. They may not admit it but they know they would become immediate minority magnets.

Anonymous paradox November 24, 2012 12:56 PM  

That is the key, I think, for secession supporters to win liberal/progressive support.

Conservatives secessionist need to start making liberal author, Thomas Naylor's book*, Secession a focal point.



*Written 4 years ago.

Anonymous Anonymous November 24, 2012 1:16 PM  

American liberals, for all their ability to double-think, simply cannot permit themselves to oppose self-determination, since it is one of the foundations of their perspective on foreign policy.

American liberals engage in unprincipled exceptions on a regular basis. One more won't bother them a bit.

Another foundation of the liberal world view is integration. Liberals are hugely in favor of it, so long as they themselves do not have to participate. Has this multi-generational hypocritical unprincipled exception caused the least bit of trouble? No, it has not.

Liberals are in favor of self-determination in the abstract, for quaint ethnics half way around the planet. Not for bitter-clinger whites in Texas, or Pennsylvania for that matter. (Not for Cubans, either, but that is a somewhat different matter)

Borderline Anonymous

Blogger The Anti-Gnostic November 24, 2012 1:23 PM  

Do you know anything about Texas? White Texans have been living with hispanics for 400 years.

Same thing with blacks in the South. We're not going to see massive race wars in the south between blacks and whites.


I think you mistake the reasons for that. Texas settled the disputes by the whites kicking ass. South did it via Jim Crow. Currently, a nuclear-armed central government tells everybody get along or else.

Blacks voted 90% for Obama; Hispanics 70+%. The mean differences in time-preference and IQ are at least a standard deviation. The resulting cultures are beyond merely different--they are antithetical. Blacks in America are largely unassimilable, and Meso-Americans/mestizos are really no better.

Maybe in a devolved USA some blacks and hispanics will be content to be peasant-class in the white nations. Perhaps even generate a few outliers with upward mobility. But then you've got the old problem of r-selection eventually overtaking and threatening the groups which practice K-selection.

In sum, multi-ethnic polities are really hard going. To remain stable, one group has to be market-dominant and the others have to be content with their lot in life. Has that worked anywhere? The better arrangement seems to be homogenous patriarchies like the Amish and Orthodox Jews. Can you imagine either group inviting blacks or hispanics on board?

Blogger Unknown November 24, 2012 1:24 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Satisfied November 24, 2012 1:26 PM  

When I mentioned this to a very liberal team-mate, his candid response was: Yep! Go on ahead and see ya!

The sad reality is that many liberals want ownership of this country, any way they can get it, and as quickly as they can get, so that they can run it exactly as they want it. An envisioned shining utopia, where all the naked, sex-crazed citizens are fed from the teet of government. And where all Christians and Jews are outlawed.

Anonymous Mike M. November 24, 2012 1:36 PM  

The one option that I think could be made to work, albeit at great cost, would be something along the lines of what the Swiss did over religion. A mandatory cleansing. If your state votes to be part of the Demofascist Utopia, every conservative is REQUIRED to leave in six months. And if your state votes to be part of the Republic of Liberty, every liberal is likewise required to depart.

It would be damned expensive. But might well be worth it.

Anonymous Azimus November 24, 2012 1:37 PM  

All that secession will do, of Texas or any other state, is make it abundantly clear that the civil governments the world over are firmly in the pocket of corporations. If the corporations stand to gain by secession, it will happen. If they stand to gain from NAU- type agglomerated mockeries of sovereign states, it will happen. There are no nations, there are no peoples, Mr. Beale - am I getting through to you? (quoting the movie, not addressing VD)

Anonymous dh November 24, 2012 1:38 PM  

> When I mentioned this to a very liberal team-mate, his candid response was: Yep! Go on ahead and see > ya!

Without Texas, the the GOP minority becomes a GOP road-bump. A huge chunk of the GOP House Caucus is gone, and a huge electoral vote chunk is gone forever.

It will be interesting to see VD's math. Texas extracts a lot of natural resources, so there is likely a scenario to do with that.

But on the other hand, Texas receives a huge chunk of change from the Federal government - military bases and pay, Federal prisons, education money in the form of grants and then of course student loans, health care dollars in the form of Tricare, Medicare, and Medicaid, and of course direct transfer payments like Social Security, food stamps, WIC, and TANF. That's not counting border patrol, disaster relief, USDA financing for ranchers and farmers, etc et all.

It will be interesting to see how it all balances out.


Anonymous 11B November 24, 2012 2:41 PM  

The NYC-DC-Hollywood Judeo-Puritans

Thanks for the new term. There has been a movement recently to put all blame for our current multiculti, PC mess of a world on the backs of Puritans when we know who disproportionately engineered this mess.

The problem is that we are not talking about self determination for Texas. We are talking about self determination for White Texans.

That to me is the biggest issue whether we are talking about Texas or any other state seceding. Clearly there is a division in this country between liberal whites and us. But the major division is between nonwhites and us. Most whites who are agitating for separation have gotten their full of diversity. They are the ones who are tired of moving when their neighborhoods and schools change overnight. So any states that breakaway have got to be whitopias or there is no point in creating them. And they have got to have tight immigration policies that allow in only those who would not become wards of the state.

As in a divorce another big issue is going to be on the division of the marriage partner's assets and LIABILITIES. There has to be some formula that will give Texas or any other state leaving its fair share of the Federal obligations.

Without Texas, the the GOP minority becomes a GOP road-bump. A huge chunk of the GOP House Caucus is gone, and a huge electoral vote chunk is gone forever.

I don't think you understand. People here are not the GOP. We are conservatives and libertarians who wish to live in a state with a small, unobtrusive central government. We also want to live in a state that is culturally friendly to us. We don't want to have no-go zones, rampant crime and social dysfunction. We don't believe that diversity is a strength and don't wish to live cheek by jowl with the third world. That is out of the question now for life in the USA. So rather than staying captive in a system we no longer support, we'd rather separate. I would think you and your allies would be thrilled by this as it would give you a free hand in DC.

If this were to happen, both of us would be happy. Your folks would own DC and what remains of the current system, and we'd be right next to you with control of our own system.

In fact there doesn't even have to be a bad relationship between us. Look at Canada and the USA. We share the same language, drive the same cars, have the same suburban lifestyle, watch the same entertainment, and are the two largest trading partners in the world with the longest uncontested border. Yet, we are separate countries with completely different political and legal systems.

I see no reason why two or three pieces of the formerly USA can't live side by side in the same manner.

Given that our potential population is around 60% of the white population, that would put our numbers at 120 million, making us the thirteenth or fourteenth most populous nation on Earth.

Blogger Son of Brock Landers November 24, 2012 2:51 PM  

I fully support the reverse psychology or 'you'll get all the good euro weenie stuff you've always wanted' approach. Those of us wishing for some retention of 'old america' should try this approach when people tease red staters about secession talk. Metternich was a master of knowing how to present an outcome to a rival or negotiating partner as if it was desirable for that rival and not purely for Austria.

We are having nationwide secession discussions and the worst part of our debt deleveraging crisis has not even started. 2025 is my new date for a 1st move. In 10 years or so, a smart red state governor will be looking for international regimes which would benefit from a break up for outside sponsorship when said break happens.

Anonymous Outlaw X November 24, 2012 2:57 PM  

As a Texan, first Texas needs to establish State banks, it is not time yet.

Anonymous The other skeptic November 24, 2012 2:57 PM  

I think you are mistaken about Liberals and self determination. Racist white rednecks do not deserve self determination and browns must not be deprived of access to the liberal utopia of America.

Anonymous Good Will November 24, 2012 2:58 PM  

Those who think they will "profit" more by remaining on the federal government teat will LEAVE Texas (should it sucede); those who think they won't (or don't care if they don't) will STAY (or move to Texas).

Many of course (like me, in line to receive a California pension) will move to Texas upon retirement, as will those eligible to receive SS.

Blogger Good Will November 24, 2012 3:06 PM  

There has to be some formula that will give Texas or any other state leaving its fair share of the Federal obligations (if it secedes).

No, it doesn't. The U.S. is unwilling and incapable of fulfilling its present obligations now. Why should the "child" be obligated to pay for the sins of the "father"?

Blogger Good Will November 24, 2012 3:12 PM  

Given that our potential population is around 60% of the white population, that would put our numbers at 120 million, making us the thirteenth or fourteenth most populous nation on Earth.

Texas is large enough to hold about six billion people, all housed in typical subdivisions, with roads, sidewalks, etc., that we normally see, with 4 people per typical home. (This, of course, does not include land set aside for farming or other purposes.)

Our earth, remarkably, is WAY underpopulated.

Anonymous Gen. Kong November 24, 2012 3:14 PM  

Vox:
American liberals, for all their ability to double-think, simply cannot permit themselves to oppose self-determination, since it is one of the foundations of their perspective on foreign policy. While some of them will be able to concoct a convoluted conceptual structure that allows them to vehemently support foreign self-determination while denying it to Americans, most of them will not. It is too integral to their view of the world.

You considerably underestimate the double-think abilities of the left. When the idea of ending the old South African regime was first under serious consideration in the late 80s-early 90s, the initial proposal was a for a confederation - a weak central government over several autonomous regions, one of which would have been majority white, a Zulu one, etc. It was shot down immediately by the squids' houseniggas in Londonistan and DC. Note also how all efforts of Greece and other provinces of the EUSSR have been derailed. Liberals support self-determination when it serves their agenda to do so, the oppose it for any who do not serve their agenda. The only secession leftists would support would be a Neuvo Atzlan in the SW.

Anonymous JI November 24, 2012 3:44 PM  

I also am in favor of self-determination, with one caveat - first send all the Mexicans back to Mexico, and all the liberals to California and Massachusetts, at gun-point of course, and then let self-determination run its merry way.

Blogger ajw308 November 24, 2012 4:26 PM  

...and overwhelming opposition from liberals...
Liberals opposed to choice? I'm shocked, shocked, I tell you.

Anonymous Mike M. November 24, 2012 4:51 PM  

Hold on there, JI. California liberals are imported from elsewhere. And have damn near driven native Californians (who run conservative) out of the state.

Unfortunately, the Leftist vermin followed.

Anonymous Mike M. November 24, 2012 4:56 PM  

WRT secession, I'm reminded by a comment about co-existience written in the late '70s by the Soviet defector "Viktor Suvorov".

He stated that co-existience was impossible. The Soviet system was so horrible that ANYTHING else was better...and a dangerous contrast. A Leftist fantasyland would quickly devolve into a Third World kleptocracy which would find a civilized state right next door a mortal peril.

Blogger ajw308 November 24, 2012 6:45 PM  

The entertaining part will be watching the liberals defend the Azatlantian annexation of the Southwest while arguing against Texans doing the same.

Anonymous 11B November 24, 2012 7:02 PM  

The entertaining part will be watching the liberals defend the Azatlantian annexation of the Southwest...

The Mexicans are not going to secede from the USA. They get too many benefits from our tax dollars. If they secede they will just become another Mexico. By remaining part of the USA, they are on course to get the best of both worlds, tax money from the gringos while gaining cultural hegemony.

And they might turn out to be some of the most vocal critics against the whitopias seceding from the Union. That would be like white flight on steroids to them. They would probably fight tooth and nail to keep those tax paying sheep in the flock.

Blogger Robert S. Oculus III November 24, 2012 7:26 PM  

@Anonymous November 24, 2012 11:14 AM: our shared cultural heritage

Ah ha ha ha ha. Oh, ho ho, hee hee hee ha ha ha. Oh, my. Oh, my aching sides. I fear I shall never stop laughing.

Anonymous Tad November 24, 2012 8:27 PM  

"...the eventual, and inevitable, secession of several American States."

Another political prediction from the man who can predict straight.

Anyone who thinks there will be any legs to the secession movement simply doesn't have a handle on American politics. The secession game was played out over a century ago and put to bed legally and politically.

The crackpots that are calling for secession are pissing into the wind. And those who think they will succeed have their mouths wide open and are catching the stream.

Anonymous Roundtine November 24, 2012 8:55 PM  

Many of course (like me, in line to receive a California pension) will move to Texas upon retirement, as will those eligible to receive SS.

If there's secession, you'll lose your SS. They'd change the law to cut off all foreigners from receiving SS payments. This is completely ignoring the financial impact of a breakup. This will also be used to stop secession: fine, you can leave, but kiss Medicare, SS, and all other welfare good-bye.

Anonymous Bernays November 24, 2012 9:05 PM  

Another controlled meme

Anonymous fnn November 24, 2012 9:53 PM  

"If there's secession, you'll lose your SS. They'd change the law to cut off all foreigners from receiving SS payments."

The Filipino Lobby won't allow this to happen.

Anonymous stg58 November 24, 2012 9:54 PM  

Tad,

Legally and politically? Don't you mean at gunpoint? We will never forget Sherman and his March to the Sea.

Anonymous fnn November 24, 2012 9:58 PM  

How the "international community" views those Americans not fully on board with the leftist project:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/commentary-total-capitalism-and-the-downfall-of-america-a-865437.html
(...)
"We want to believe that Obama failed because of the conservatives inside his own country. Indeed, the fanatics that Mitt Romney depends on have jettisoned everything that distinguishes the West: science and logic, reason and moderation, even simple decency. They hate homosexuals, the weak and the state. They oppress women and persecute immigrants. Their moralizing about abortion doesn't even spare the victims of rape. They are the Taliban of the West."
(...)

Anonymous zen0 November 24, 2012 10:19 PM  

crackpots that are calling for secession are pissing into the wind. And those who think they will succeed have their mouths wide open and are catching the stream.

Tad, you are projecting again. Civilized people keep their special behaviors behind closed door. We really do not want to know what you can't live without.

Anonymous john November 24, 2012 11:59 PM  

Secession has many practical problems like getting a lot of people killed. But it would offer a chance at real power for a lot of politicians currently in the lower tier of.

If some governor tried to take the 10th amendment seriously to fix his own internal problems. For example by closing down some local EPA offices and concomitantly opening a few oil fields.

We could have our second civil war with lawyers. its a dream but its possible. the big issue with the fed is it is breaking the law. its not anything else.

Anonymous bw November 25, 2012 12:05 AM  

They hate homosexuals, the weak and the state. They oppress women and persecute immigrants. Their moralizing about abortion doesn't even spare the victims of rape. They are the Taliban of the West.

It is actually secular humanist, so-called "Progressives" that hate all of the special interest groups mentioned. They consider them INFERIOR and in need of special protection by the murderous, bankrupt STATE.
They love spiritual and psychological murder - as well as material.
Uneducated, religious fundamentalist Collectivists are easy to rule over, which is why they are given every advantage.
And yet, still will fail.

Blogger W.LindsayWheeler November 25, 2012 8:59 AM  

Richard Evans ends his article with this statement "And we Can't".

You can't. Do you know how Apartheid was crushed in South Africa? Serbia crushed? Iraq crushed? Iran now being crushed?

Thru economic sanctions. The Federal Government will starve you to death.

Secession is not going to go anywhere. Anyone stupid to sign those petitions have put themselves on the list to be emprisoned.

You don't own the propaganda machine in this country. You simply going to loose because you can't propagandize.

Furthermore, the whole younger generation is PeeCee. You ain't goin to go anywhere. They have been indoctrinated to believe that your views are evil.

Richard Evans is right--you are NOT going to secede ever. You'll be crushed immediately. The South in their states were united. There is not one single state now united philosophically, nor racially. Your goose is cooked and your are too dumb to recognize it. You were dumb to get in this situation in the first place.

Blogger Son of Brock Landers November 25, 2012 9:36 AM  

The scaremongring about losing SS and medicare is fantastic. Think about those programs and how the transer of money actually happens. It's doable.

But but but what about national defense? Please start scaring people about this one, too. We need to sort the people committed to making a break and those who will just stand on the sidelines.

Anonymous Tad November 25, 2012 11:00 AM  

@STG "Legally and politically? Don't you mean at gunpoint? We will never forget Sherman and his March to the Sea.

Of my goodness...Sherman references? Nearly 150 years after the fact?

However, yes, there is the gunpoint response as well as the legal and political.

It's the political realities that are most important here. In Texas over 40% of the voters chose Obama. They probably would oppose secession if they were high enough or drunk enough to give the idea the time of day. Then there are the Romney voters, the vast majority of which would never support secession, primarily because they don't drink or do drugs to excess.

This leaves us with the people who dwell on Sherman's march to the sea.

Anonymous Teacher November 25, 2012 11:31 AM  

When an opponent declares, "I will not come over to your side," I calmly say, "Your child belongs to us already… What are you? You will pass on. Your descendants, however, now stand in the new camp. In a short time they will know nothing else but this new community." – Adolf Hitler

You are not the future. Your children are. Pray for them for your sins.

Anonymous Svigor November 25, 2012 6:33 PM  

I see absolutely no evidence that the left holds self-determination dear.

And where all Christians and Jews are outlawed.

Oh please. Centralized power is mother's milk to Jews. And btw, they are the brain trust running the left. They operate according to "who-whom?" (AKA, Is it good for the Jews?); self-determination means nothing to them otherwise. Kong has it right - leftists support Kosovo-style self-determination, and nothing else.

He stated that co-existience was impossible. The Soviet system was so horrible that ANYTHING else was better...and a dangerous contrast. A Leftist fantasyland would quickly devolve into a Third World kleptocracy which would find a civilized state right next door a mortal peril.

Absolutely correct. I've been saying the exact same thing for years about leftists in the west, and this is the first time I've ever seen that Suvorov quote. Jewish ethnic supremacist leftists and white leftists are of one mind on this.

The Filipino Lobby won't allow this to happen.

Filipinos would be just fine with cutting off welfare payments to seceded Texans.

They are the Taliban of the West.

And we shalt prevent them from seceding, deny them self-determination or separation, and follow them wherever they go, unto the ends of the Earth, forever more, Amen.

Anonymous Tad November 25, 2012 6:45 PM  

@Svigor Oh please. Centralized power is mother's milk to Jews. And btw, they are the brain trust running the left.

I thought Obama was Muslim..or Christian?

Yes yes. The Jeeeewwwws are the problem. This canard is as old as ignorance masquerading as concern.

Next thing you know, you'll be saying the blacks are a sub race and ought to be segregated, gays are bad because some skyGod says so and the Rosecrucians are steering us all toward a one-world government.

Blogger Robert S. Oculus III November 25, 2012 8:47 PM  

I have other thoughts on this issue, but they are lengthy, and I don't want to clog this site with my ruminations. I do think today's vote in Catalonia bodes well for our side.

Anonymous Svigor November 25, 2012 9:47 PM  

I thought Obama was Muslim..or Christian?

What his religion has to do with the topic, I don't know.

Yes yes. The Jeeeewwwws are the problem. This canard is as old as ignorance masquerading as concern.

If I had a dollar for every loonie who started in with the "aaarg the Jooos are the problem" thing, I could start a bank. Protip: note how the reflexive philo-Semite brought this in as his straw man. I didn't bring it up.

Next thing you know, you'll be saying the blacks are a sub race and ought to be segregated

Segregation is merely the flip side of the integration coin: first big gubbmint enforces segregation on the public, then it switches sides and starts forcing integration on the public. Both sides are illegitimate uses of gov't power.

gays are bad because some skyGod says so

Bla bla bla. When people try to change the subject by dragging their pet straw men into the equation. Who was talking about segregation or integration? Who brought up sodomy? Who brought up conspiracy theories? A man who can't argue with the guy in front of him, but has to drag in straw men instead, is a man with weak arguments.

Nobody was talking about sodomites, blacks, segregation, or conspiracy theories until you dragged them into the conversation.

Anonymous rubberducky November 26, 2012 1:24 AM  

I'm a Texan, born and bred inside the city limits of Dallas itself, and from that age where, even within the city limits of Dallas, I grew up in farm country. Took cowpaths to school. Looked out at recess and through the fence at grazing herds of longhorns. All within the city of Dallas. Been to Dallas recently? Yes, and I'm not that old. Still have mom and pop around to tell me of older days. So much as has changed so fast in Texas.

But one thing: this idea that Texas secession was ever a "right wing" idea just isn't true. Every native Texan has always reserved the right to secession, and most of us have always itched for it. We were all told, and most still believe, that Texas has a right to do it as part of the agreement of joining the States. Oh sure, you can point out how badly that went the first time, circa 1860-65, but Texans ain't hearing you on that. Fact is we all still believe it's true.

This crazy rate of change that happened to our society in Texas got started with a vengence during the 1970's, when everybody fleeing the Rust Belt showed up in Texas and in California or so it seemed. And they immediately began trying to fix up the place to more like the back home they fled, ruined. I remember well the bumper stickers all over town which read, "Will the last ones out of Detroit kindly turn out the lights." Seeds of resentment found soil then, and have grown over the years. Most oldtimers want out of the States. Badly.

Blogger James Higham November 26, 2012 10:38 AM  

Liberals like to point out that the "Democratic" states subsidize the "Republican" states

Really? One learns something every day.

Anonymous Stilicho November 27, 2012 8:43 AM  

fine, you can leave, but kiss Medicare, SS, and all other welfare good-bye.

That's a feature, not a bug. Plus, it's all gone anyway, the masses simply haven't realized it yet. I know, MPAI, but still, one would think that repeatedly getting smacked in the face with a 2X4 would get the attention of a few of them.

Wheeler: get your mind out of 1860. I have not seen a single argument that the collapse will follow that path. You are refuting an argument that really isn't being made. The forces for the breakup of the Union are too large to write off though. Call it secession or de-facto collapse, or balkanization, or whatever, the trend is clear and growing.

Blogger Galt-in-Da-Box November 29, 2012 3:19 AM  

"NahNovember 24, 2012 8:09 AM
"If Texas did peacefully secede and other red states didn't, we'd have a permanent Democrat executive."

Texas is going Blue soon anyway, so you'll get that permanent Democrat executive whether they secede or not."

Judging from the wetbac...I mean "undocumented moocher" influx & the willingness of allegedly-conservative Papist altruists to cater to them to earn "a hope of heaven", Nah's diagnosis would be correct.

Blogger Galt-in-Da-Box November 29, 2012 3:23 AM  

USSA is precient, Conrad: it's what we'll have if we're stupid enough to be disarmed - a Unitet Schtaat auf South Africa where no white man's life, liberty or property is safe.

Blogger Galt-in-Da-Box November 29, 2012 3:28 AM  

"Yes yes. The Jeeeewwwws are the problem. This canard is as old as ignorance masquerading as concern."

It's not Jews that are the problem, just their love for money & absolute power.

Blogger Galt-in-Da-Box November 29, 2012 7:50 AM  

"Isn't interesting that just as recently as eighty years ago some, if not a majority of, Protestant Christians were pacifistic? Now the flag, along with the military, is a sacrement. It just goes to show the enormous amount of power the cultural elites have to sway and manipulate public opinion."

BFD...There was a time when American Catholics were vehemently anti-Khazar, seeing modern faux-Judaism for what it is. Try getting the rank-and-file Parishioner to speak ill of "Christ-killers" today! That has gone out the window also with the indebtedness of Rome to the Rothschilds & the BUSHevik "War On Terr-r!"
The name of the game with religion - as with OTHER FORMS of politics - is follow the money trail - especially the dispensationalist/fatalist ("iffith it beeith Thy Willith O Lordith") COMMUNE-ity.
Most people prefer a just master to genuine liberty, because it relieves them of responsibility & gives them someone to blame for their own incompetence.

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