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Tuesday, January 08, 2013

Fueling the death spiral

Glenn Reynolds notes that homeschools are putting one of America's most enervating evils at risk, the public school:
For "notoriously inadequate" public school systems, as I argue in a new "Broadside" from Encounter Books, The K-12 Implosion, the risk is that the outflow of kids will turn from a trickle into a flood. At some point, it's a death-spiral: As kids (often the best students) leave because schools are "notoriously inadequate," the schools become even more notoriously inadequate, and funding -- which is computed on a per-pupil basis -- dries up. This, of course, encourages more parents to move their kids elsewhere, in a vicious cycle.

Does this mean the end of public education? No. But it does mean that the old model -- which dates to the 19th Century, when schools were explicitly compared to factories -- is at risk. Smarter educators will start thinking about how to update a 19th Century product to suit 21st Century realities. Less-smart educators will hunker down and fight change tooth and nail. Who will win out in the end? Well, how many 19th Century business models do you see flourishing, here in the 21st?
The risk is to be embraced with enthusiasm.  I've been arguing for years that the very concept of "school" is completely and utterly outdated.  It's inefficient, ineffective, and intellectually crippling.  Although there are many ominous signs on the horizon, there are a few bright rays of light shining as well, and one of them is the continued rapid growth of parents deciding to homeschool their children.

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139 Comments:

Anonymous Roundtine January 08, 2013 7:03 PM  

In Antifragile, Nassim Taleb lists fragile and antifragile education. Fragile:Soccer Mom.
Antifragile: Barbell: parental library; street fights

Blogger Laramie Hirsch January 08, 2013 7:04 PM  

As my toddlers get older, and as I weigh the option of homeschooling them, I cannot help but recall how almost every single homeschooled person became socially awkward in their adulthood.

If homeschooling can work, I'm for it. But even if there's extracurricular social activities, these kids still seem to grow up to be strange.

Anonymous scoobius dubious January 08, 2013 7:04 PM  

Public schools are filled with negroes, Latinos, and various types of undesirable shit-colored immigrant mystery meat. Sensible White people don't want their children surrounded by such creatures. Now that mystery meat is officially >50% of the population of children under 3 (all men are created equal! meet your new equals!!), the die is cast. Math, do, etc.

Anonymous MuayTyson January 08, 2013 7:09 PM  

I trained(exercise) a couple of homeschooled kids in the DC Metro area. They were great kids not akward in the least and able to converse with adults and look them in the eye. They had a lot of social interaction with a lot of different people and they were involved in the Boy Scouts as well as sports and group learning enviroments.
It only takes a few good parents and a little creativity to homeschool your kids and not turn them into freaks. Long gone are the days of kids stuck at home by themselves with their nose in a book. I would assume these types of families with there children would be socially akward under any circumstances.

Blogger tz January 08, 2013 7:13 PM  

There are few if any 'public' schools. There are lots of government schools. Long ago, schools were a local community thing. Now it is a creature of supreme court decisions and the federal government bureaucracies. I've seen 'homeschool' groups recreate a schoolhouse experience.

Anonymous Chris Ritchie January 08, 2013 7:13 PM  

It can't happen fast enough. My wife was a kindergarten teacher for two years. It wasn't exactly a 'garden of children. ' Check out John Taylor Gatto's explanation of the Prussian origin of our factory schools.

Anonymous RC January 08, 2013 7:15 PM  

"If homeschooling can work, I'm for it. But even if there's extracurricular social activities, these kids still seem to grow up to be strange." - Laramie Hirsch

Strange as in they can think for themselves; they're not indoctrinated into the PC culture; that they don't give a tinker's damn what fools think of them? Of what do you speak?

Out of our large school home coop there are a handful of kids that are awkward (usually pretty bright), probably about the same percentage as when I attended public school.

This old saw has no teeth and has become laughable. Look at the numbers; look at the accomplishments; celebrate the clear-thinking homeschooled kids that are knocking it out of the park.

And let any dumbass show up at my place intending harm be introduced to a full family of sharpshooters. In my school the kids are armed!

Anonymous JW January 08, 2013 7:29 PM  

"I cannot help but recall how almost every single homeschooled person became socially awkward in their adulthood."

Wow. Really Laramie? Every single homwschooled person. That's just amazing!

Anonymous JW January 08, 2013 7:31 PM  

Opps. Sorry about the misspelling above. I've been homschooled you see and I'm socially awkwared, as well as a bad speller.

Blogger Sleepy January 08, 2013 7:31 PM  

For what it's worth, I came from public school and am fairly awkward. It's not protection; some people are just weird.

Though I think most of the awkwardness is how stunningly mature the homeschooled appear next to their peers, particularly in light of how many adults still give the impression of overgrown children.

What I'm wondering is at what point the shame will come in. How bad do public schools have to get before the conscience becomes bothersome? When are parents gonna feel bad about the places they put their children in?

Blogger Survival Gardener, AKA David the Good January 08, 2013 7:35 PM  

"I cannot help but recall how almost every single homeschooled person became socially awkward in their adulthood."

Oh brother. You should meet my family - it would quickly disabuse you of this notion. I was homeschooled from 1st grade through to college. Jumping in and out of social situations is as easy as breathing (of course... it should be, considering I work in media.)

Yes, there are "awkward" homeschoolers - but sometimes that awkwardness is simple discomfort evoked by close proximity to their more simian peers.

And really - if your kids were homeschooled and turned out "awkward," that wouldn't be because they failed to participate in the degradation, bullying, institutionalization and perversity of the public school system - it would be because you failed to teach them any social graces. You have more influence as a parent than you may think.

-Vidad

OpenID simplytimothy January 08, 2013 7:39 PM  

@Laramie Hirsch

Yep,better to be a bovine in the herd, a product on the assembly line, a number...

But your kids will not do this

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2012-02/boy-who-played-fusion?page=all

now, will they?

but, they will be 'cool'.

oy,

Anonymous Van January 08, 2013 7:47 PM  

Scoobius-

Every few years the Census Bureau loudly declares that nonwhites were a majority of births. And every year, the CDC - using a larger sample and more complete data - quietly corrects them. Nonhispanic whites are still the majority, and have been slightly increasing the last few years.

Blogger Unknown January 08, 2013 7:48 PM  

And scoobius dubious flops out the old tattered and greasy race card.

Anonymous Stingray January 08, 2013 7:55 PM  

We live in one of the *good* school districts in the state. In these schools, there are no doors on the bathroom stalls and the kids are still having sex in them. Drugs are rampant. If homeschooled kids are awkward compared to the kids coming out of these school, color me unsurprised.

Anonymous Stickwick January 08, 2013 7:56 PM  

I cannot help but recall how almost every single homeschooled person became socially awkward in their adulthood.

It would be helpful if you could define for us what you mean by socially awkward. In any case, it's amazing how quickly young adults become socially adjusted to just about any environment. Acclimation can take a little while, but it's relatively easy. What's much more difficult at age 18+ is to learn to think critically and to develop a foundation of useful knowledge.

Anonymous feral1404 January 08, 2013 7:58 PM  

"Awkward" may just have been a poor word choice. My older brother in Wisconsin home schools his three kids, and compared to peer children caught in the "state school sausage machine" (as he calls it), they just seem to me to be like adults in adolescent bodies. It's fun having conversations with them.

But awkward? Well here's a short anecdote: My brother and his wife found a small journal in their oldest child's bedroom drawer and opened it. Unbeknownst to them, she'd been keeping a detailed journal of science experiments that she'd been conducting on her own; stuff like putting different colored yarns in different places around the yard to see which birds would make nests out of which colors, etc. She's five years old.

Maybe that's awkward behavior to some, but to me that just means they've kickstarted her brain into critical thinking... just like education is supposed to do, eh?

Blogger Laramie Hirsch January 08, 2013 7:59 PM  

"Wow. Really Laramie? Every single homeschooled person. That's just amazing!"

-JW

No. I said almost every homeschooled person. Almost.

"I cannot help but recall how almost every single homeschooled person became socially awkward in their adulthood."

-Me

I also cannot help but feel a certain aggression towards my first comment. But I'm not changing my testimony for you people. Just about every homeschooled person I've dealt with has been socially awkward in my dealings with them. And I know I'm not the only one who's seen this.

I say this, because I want answers, not because I'm trying to be antagonistic.

Anonymous Stickwick January 08, 2013 8:00 PM  

FWIW, black families are a fast-growing homeschool demographic. I have some liberal friends who are skeptical of homeschooling, but all I have to do to shut down any unwarranted criticisms is to trot out the fact that homeschooling pretty much closes the performance gap for minority children.

Blogger GuyStewart January 08, 2013 8:00 PM  

Five words offering an alternative to educating Humans the way it's being done now would have been welcome. (Please note: I am a public school teacher. We homeschooled both of our children for a portion of thier education. One did private high school for a year. One is in private college (GPA = 4.0 on a 4.0 scale). She is not socially awkward in any sense, nor is my son. I have taught public school, private school, charter school and summer school (for Gifted and Talented). I am certified to teach English Languag Learners as well as Special Education students. I am a certified International Baccalaureatte level 4 science teacher and was certified "worthy" by the National Board for Professional Teaching Standards would be worth.

All that to say that I agree that education as we do it today is "the very concept of 'school' is completely and utterly outdated. It's inefficient, ineffective, and intellectually crippling".

But I will say that I came to this site because you often offered suggestion and thoughtful commentary.

This commentary followed by the thoughtless diatribe above, so deeply disappointed me that I won't be back any time soon.

Bye.

Anonymous Sawtooth January 08, 2013 8:01 PM  

When I was in sixth or seventh grade, if it were suggested to me that I would be able to stay at home, let my natural curiosity flourish for learning, follow and develop my own passions, and finally be set free from the spirit crushing mechanisms of the assembly line, conformity factory, I would have wept and laughed simultaneously with joy.

I would never subject a sensitive child to that kind of torturous despair.

Damn you teacher, leave them kids alone!

Anonymous fnn January 08, 2013 8:05 PM  

>Public schools are filled with negroes, Latinos, and various types of undesirable shit-colored immigrant mystery meat.

Well, even more important than that is that every public school in the US is governed by perverted doctrines imposed by a leftist, anti-white, anti-Western elite.

But everyone here knows that

Anonymous Idle Spectator January 08, 2013 8:07 PM  

I've been arguing for years that the very concept of "school" is completely and utterly outdated. It's inefficient, ineffective, and intellectually crippling.

Government schools almost intellectually crippled me. Keyword, almost.

The problem is even the best students like the valedictorians and salutatorians get maimed. The King of the Mountain of Garbage is still covered in putrid garbage. I weep for the students there now in 2013, as it is probably much worse.

The high school diploma has been reduced to a certificate of attendance, and the freshman and sophomore years of university are following suit.

Anonymous Idle Spectator January 08, 2013 8:09 PM  

I am a certified International Baccalaureatte level 4 science teacher and was certified "worthy" by the National Board for Professional Teaching Standards would be worth.

This commentary followed by the thoughtless diatribe above, so deeply disappointed me that I won't be back any time soon.

Bye.



Cool story, teacherbro.

Anonymous 15er January 08, 2013 8:10 PM  

My wife and I are considering a move to homeschooling (3 girl: 4,5,7). We are feeling overwhelmed at the prospect - mostly from a not-knowing-where-to-start sort of thing. What are some resources/materials/programs/curriculum the Ilk would suggest?

Anonymous Stingray January 08, 2013 8:16 PM  

15er,

We use The Well Trained Mind and I couldn't recommend it enough.

Blogger James Dixon January 08, 2013 8:25 PM  

> Just about every homeschooled person I've dealt with has been socially awkward in my dealings with them. And I know I'm not the only one who's seen this.

Have you considered the possibility that if most of the better educated people you meet seem awkward to you, the problem isn't with them?

Blogger James Dixon January 08, 2013 8:27 PM  

> This commentary followed by the thoughtless diatribe above, so deeply disappointed me that I won't be back any time soon. ... Bye.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Anonymous VulpesRex January 08, 2013 8:29 PM  

@Idle Spectator

Judging from the sentence composition and spelling in the first paragraph of your post, you certainly weren't certified as a Level 4 English Teacher.

Having graduated High School in an International Baccalaureate program at a Tier 1 school in Southern California, I can testify from personal experience that the IB program is certainly worthwhile for the few kids who are accepted. Programs of challenging the intellectually capable are almost nonexistent in the public school system. What few programs exist are very limited in the number of children they can accept. The rest of the system is designed (and I use the term "designed" quite deliberately)to churn out mindless little mediocre automatons. Creativity and Independent Thinking are traits to be punished and stamped out, rather than encouraged. To use a well-trod trope: Were Einstein reincarnated and put into America's public school system of today... he would be pumped full of Ritalin and left to drool his way through K-12 as an illiterate slob.

If you are a public school teacher, you are part of the problem. I note you did not say that you actually TEACH in an IB program... merely that you are certified. My wife and I decided against sending our children into the indoctrination factories, and decided to homeschool.

Is it difficult? Indeed it is. But it is the best decision of our lives. My eldest son is merely 5 years old, and already reading at a 3rd grade level... after a mere 5 months of instruction. Had we left the job to people like you, he would still be learning to differentiate letters along with the lowest common denominator in the class.

Anonymous Tad January 08, 2013 8:32 PM  

@Vox Day

It looks like 4% of students nationwide homeschool their kids. Meh! Talk to me when it's a movement.

Anonymous Anonymous January 08, 2013 8:34 PM  

I'm betting that the Newtown incident will be giving a big boost to homeschooling numbers going forward...

Anonymous Anonymous January 08, 2013 8:36 PM  

GuyStewart,


Bye, to you too.

And I hope the door hits your stupid ass on the way out.

Quote< I have taught public school, private school, charter school and summer school (for Gifted and Talented). I am certified to teach English Languag Learners as well as Special Education students. I am a certified International Baccalaureatte level 4 science teacher and was certified "worthy" by the National Board for Professional Teaching Standards would be worth. >end Quote

So in other words you didn't subject your kids to the crap you spew is that it?

You were offended because you are part of the problem.

Here's a solution for you, GET A REAL JOB.

farmer Tom

Anonymous bw January 08, 2013 8:39 PM  

Mass institutional schooling is compelled to follow a corporate model. But since the product it (supposedly) seeks to produce is and educated person, it runs squarely into the dilemma that there is no known collective way to get there, but rather a great many individual ways. A confining curriculum and classroom cuts children off from abstract exercises. This requirement is damaging. The paradox is that the particular kinds of damage inflicted - loss of confidence, loss of independence, the development of certain habits and needs - which have always characterized week and dependent people, are actually useful to all complex management schemes. Management does not wish to have strong minded, independent, critically thinking people to set to task. They simply desire trained ones. JTG

Anonymous Kickass January 08, 2013 8:41 PM  

Funny, homeschoolers are awkward yet the increasing supply of over medicated, morally depraved thugs that the schools turn out are ok with you. Laramie, almost all the homeschoolers you know might just find you awkward to be around.

And hey, teacher of the year, learn to spell.

Anonymous Kickass January 08, 2013 8:45 PM  

I dont know if anyone is willing to share what they do for homeschool, but we are only on our second year and would love to hear.

Anonymous Idle Spectator January 08, 2013 8:46 PM  

It looks like 4% of students nationwide homeschool their kids. Meh! Talk to me when it's a movement.

Tad, you do realize that means... 1/25 students, right? So if I had an average of 25 students per class, one of those students is homeschooled. And the rate is increasing.

I know I've asked you this before, but does your brain touch your spinal column?

Anonymous Anonymous January 08, 2013 8:48 PM  

15er,

My 17 year old twins daughters will graduate this spring, having never darkened the doors of a gubmit edumkashun store. And other than their distrust of government, talent for thinking on their own, and desire to have families and children of their own, they seem to be fairly normal young ladies.

Find a homeschool group in your area, a homeschool family that you know and respect, maybe look for a state wide homeschool group, and ASK LOTS OF QUESTIONS. Most homeschoolers love to help others get started.

Here in Iowa we have a state homeschool group call NICHE (Network of Iowa Christian Home Educators) Don't let the Christian thing throw you, most of us who participate are Christians, but I know several people who are not that homeschool.

Our local group is about 25 to 30 families that meet twice a month for the kids to form friendships, do art and music together, and give the moms some time with other adults.

farmer Tom

Anonymous Kickass January 08, 2013 8:48 PM  

@ Tad

Sure Tad. Btw, what percentage of the population are homosexuals? Surely they must meet a quota too before I have to take them seriously. Quid pro quo and all

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother January 08, 2013 8:52 PM  

Read John Taylor Gatto and Charlotte Iserbyt.

Liberal Arts/Western Civilization: Great Books of the Western World by EB
Math: Saxon
Phonics/Reading: Holy Bible / Mae Carden
Science: Throw them into Junior College. The Foundational science courses are geared for people with no exposure to science at all.

Anonymous Kickass January 08, 2013 8:55 PM  

3.4 percent. I call your gay marriage rights and raise you my homeschool rights.

Anonymous Noah B. January 08, 2013 8:58 PM  

"I say this, because I want answers, not because I'm trying to be antagonistic."

It's important to consider why a child was homeschooled in the first place. Many parents have chosen to homeschool their children to protect them from bullying, and it is the sky and awkward kids who are probably the most likely to be bullied.

The recognition of the academic advantages seems to be a relatively newer reason for parents to choose homeschooling.

This is just my guess, I don't have any surveys or studies to back this up.

Anonymous Porky! January 08, 2013 9:03 PM  


GuyStewart sez: "I am a public school teacher. We homeschooled both of our children for a portion of thier education."

Lol!

Anonymous Idle Spectator January 08, 2013 9:09 PM  

Judging from the sentence composition and spelling in the first paragraph of your post, you certainly weren't certified as a Level 4 English Teacher.

Thank Non-Denominational Creator for that. That would require me to study that field of "ed-ju" "kasshun" right?

How many great writers even bothered with "writing school"? I know William Faulkner got a D in English. I know Michael Crichton switched from English to Biological Anthropology, and then graduated summa cum laude.

Anonymous Tad January 08, 2013 9:10 PM  

@kickass

Sure Tad. Btw, what percentage of the population are homosexuals? Surely they must meet a quota too before I have to take them seriously. Quid pro quo and all

Who knows how many homosexuals there are. The things is, we take stuff seriously based on the case they make for being taken seriously. Clearly the homosexual community and the morally enlightened set supporting gay rights has won that battle. Get back to me on the homeschooling front.

Blogger Doom January 08, 2013 9:12 PM  

One of the things I am looking at when looking over women in the off chance marriage is possible, is the notion of home schooling. I don't need her to be absolutely onboarad, right at the start. I just need her to have the option as a consideration. My guess is that her natural inclination as mother to give her kids the best, and a little data, will do the work needed. So long as I can give her what she needs to do so.

Further, I think home-schooling will strengthen the family hugely. Why is it that the right thing pays off in so many ways? God's plan, or such, I suspect. But if you aren't into God, I suppose you could go the superstitious way and suggest Karma? I'm not sure how the neo-new-chic-tre-moderns who refuse to consider God try to explain around the obvious these days. Odd how even lip-service/ballot box statists... still want a strong family. I guess they either don't know, or hold, the convictions of their words and actions? It is, however, nice to see God at work, especially among the Godless. *grins*

Anonymous Tad January 08, 2013 9:16 PM  

@doom

I'm not sure how the neo-new-chic-tre-moderns who refuse to consider God try to explain around the obvious these days

Pretty simple really. First we identify the obvious without recourse to superstition, fairy tales, religion and hoaxes. Then we simply say it straight with empathy and resolve. As I said, pretty simple really.

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother January 08, 2013 9:16 PM  

Who knows how many homosexuals there are. The things is, we take stuff seriously based on the case they make for being taken seriously. Clearly the homosexual community and the morally enlightened set supporting gay rights has won that battle. Get back to me on the homeschooling front.

Love those atheist "morals". Tad, the CDC pegs the amount of homosexuals in America at 2%. Looks like you are halfway there!

Anonymous Kickass January 08, 2013 9:45 PM  

Tad, I know. So before you go assigning a percentage standard to a movement ya might want think it through.
Intellectually dishonest deflection.

Anonymous Tad January 08, 2013 9:46 PM  

@stg58

Love those atheist "morals". Tad, the CDC pegs the amount of homosexuals in America at 2%. Looks like you are halfway there!

Maybe. The thing is this...we won. We won our rights. We won on gay marriage. We won entirely. And you know why? It's not because all 2% of us stood up and demanded real civil rights. It's because we convinced the moral and ethical straights to support full rights for homosexuals. So put that in your closet and suck on it.

Anonymous Stilicho January 08, 2013 9:48 PM  

Who knows how many homosexuals there are. The things is, we take stuff seriously based on the case they make for being taken seriously. Clearly the homosexual community and the morally enlightened set supporting gay rights has won that battle.

Amusing. You take your abnormality so seriously that you want the government seal of approval on it. Otherwise, one must conclude that you would not find it to be a completely valid endeavor. Doubly amusing that you folks, who fought so vociferously to get the government out of your bedrooms, turn around and invite the government into your bedroom with open arms in return for a few measly dollars of "life-partner" employment benefits. Your morality is quite inexpensive. One wonders how much it is really worth.

Anonymous Kickass January 08, 2013 9:50 PM  

Further, amazing how serious we are being taken at such a small percentage. And we dont even throw ourselves parades, you Homeschoolphobic.

Anonymous Susan January 08, 2013 10:03 PM  

Funny how teachers like GuyStewart put their kids in either private school or homeschool them. It would be a refreshing change for his profession to admit that they are failures and proud of it.

And to Tad the atheist in regards to your 9:46pm comment, do you understand the old saying that says, you may have won the battle but you sure lost the war? I am sure this comment goes over your head, but I feel very sorry for you and much pity. What I am trying to say, in the grand scheme of things, you and yours have won NOTHING.

Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus January 08, 2013 10:04 PM  

"Just about every homeschooled person I've dealt with has been socially awkward in my dealings with them. And I know I'm not the only one who's seen this."

For some reason, a *lot* of people think a kid is "socially awkward" is he isn't shuffling around like a drunken ape with his pants hanging down to his knees, his baseball cap pulled down over his face, while texting on his "bubble" in quasi-literate "AOL speak."

Anonymous Tad January 08, 2013 10:08 PM  

@Stilcho

Amusing. You take your abnormality so seriously that you want the government seal of approval on it

Actually, in our view the abnormality is in irrational discrimination imposed upon homosexuals and codified into federal and state codes. But we are fixing that abnormality state by state.

I can promise you that eventually, the true abnormality will be easily recognized: it will be seen in those that continue to irrationally denigrate homosexuals. You are on the wrong side of history, the wrong side of morality and the wrong side of ethics.

Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus January 08, 2013 10:08 PM  

"Tad, I know. So before you go assigning a percentage standard to a movement ya might want think it through. Intellectually dishonest deflection."

The funny part, too, is that homosexuals only make up ~2%, while homeschoolers already constitute 4% of students. Homosexuals face some rather stiff barriers to reproduction, while homeschoolers are more like than not to be reproducing rather freely after they get married.

In this particular case, demographics are not the perverts' friend.

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother January 08, 2013 10:09 PM  

Yes, Tad. You "won". You won a lifetime of disease and dead friends because no one dares tell you that you are all committing suicide, one meth fueled orgy at a time. You "won" because you cooked the books on the DOD survey to get DADT repealed. You "won", so now you can instantly ruin any serviceman's career who has a different opinion. You won! You got an openly fag federal judge to thwart the will of the people. Oohhh real covincing win.

Your wins are simply getting cowardly state and federal legislators to support you so no one says calls them mean.

You are the detritus of society. You are like dogshit. A lot of things can happen to dogshit. It can get run over by car tires. It can dry up and blow away in the sun. One of these days you will get HIV, it will turn into AIDS. While you are wasting away into a diseaae ridden husk, we will be loving our wives and treasuring our children. Tell me, Tad, when were you molested? When were yoi turned aside into the behavioral choices of homosexuality.

I pity you.

Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus January 08, 2013 10:10 PM  

"Yes, Tad. You "won". You won a lifetime of disease and dead friends because no one dares tell you that you are all committing suicide, one meth fueled orgy at a time. You "won" because you cooked the books on the DOD survey to get DADT repealed. You "won", so now you can instantly ruin any serviceman's career who has a different opinion. You won! You got an openly fag federal judge to thwart the will of the people. Oohhh real covincing win."

That's okay - after the coming collapse takes place, they won't be "winning" any more, most likely.

Anonymous Tad January 08, 2013 10:12 PM  

@Susan

And to Tad the atheist in regards to your 9:46pm comment, do you understand the old saying that says, you may have won the battle but you sure lost the war? I am sure this comment goes over your head, but I feel very sorry for you and much pity. What I am trying to say, in the grand scheme of things, you and yours have won NOTHING.

Susan, are you gay? I ask because I wonder how you would possibly understand what homosexuals have won or lost unless you have been subject to the irrational and immoral restrictions put on gays and the blatant discrimination and hatred that usually christian men and women have visited on homosexuals. So, I'm just asking, are you gay?

As for your "pity", homosexuals have experienced your brand of pity for far too long. We no longer require it, no longer want it and frankly never did before. So please, keep it yourself and within your circle of Gods.

Anonymous Tad January 08, 2013 10:16 PM  

@stg58

Yes, Tad. You "won". You won a lifetime of disease and dead friends because no one dares tell you that you are all committing suicide, one meth fueled orgy at a time.

Hey, don't accuse me of taking part in those traditions of the American south, where christianity runs rampant.

Your wins are simply getting cowardly state and federal legislators to support you so no one says calls them mean.

Actually, the most recent wins have been the kind of wins you are going to see happen across the country: voter initiatives. Sure we might lose in the Christian/Meth fueled south, but eventually the moral and upstanding kids of the current crop will vote.

Anonymous JartStar January 08, 2013 10:17 PM  

I'd like to see the demographics of the average homeschool family and compare the outcomes of homeschooled kids to public school kids who have the same demographics. I remember a few years back looking at US public schools compared to other Western public schools and the results were poor as a whole, but if the students were of the same demographic (white and middle class and up) the results were nearly identical.

There's excellent evidence that an intact, two parent family who worships weekly produces kids with the best grades in public schools. I haven't looked but I bet this is the most common homeschooled demographic. How much better will the kids fare from being homeschooled? (If you answer this question beyond anecdotal please provide the evidence with the demographics if you can.) I don't doubt they could do better, but how much is difficult to say when what you compare it what's left in the public schools.

Anonymous Shawn January 08, 2013 10:23 PM  

Schooling for the first few years isn't terribly bad in some places. It's when they hit about 4th grade that things start to deviate. That allows several years to get them involved in Girl Scouts, music, gymnastics, church to build that ever evolving group of friends.

We found a good Baptist school that only goes up to 5th grade, then we plan on homeschooling. We're in the top tier for schools in Louisiana, but it still isn't good enough.

Teachers at the local public schools inform us that a few are pregnant by the 7th grade and the middle school is quietly becoming infested with vermin. Just a few years ago those same teachers were telling us how good the school was. It is surprising just how quickly a place can turn.

For those worried about homeschooling...we were sending our daughter to Kindergarten at one of the most expensive schools in the city. Towards the end of the year they tell us that we need to hold her back as she is behind. After testing her myself, I find that it is true.

We discuss it with her teacher and we all decide that if we can't get her tutored and up to speed within the month, we'll hold her back. We research the hell out of everything, find a computer problem to help, and within three weeks she is up to speed and plus ultra. Back to school and the teachers and principal inform us that even though she is up to speed they are going to hold her back anyway.

It was horrible, but we learned that we could teach our children through that experience. Most schools cannot prepare your children anymore and maybe they never could.

Anonymous Tad January 08, 2013 10:24 PM  

@stg58

Tell me, Tad, when were you molested? When were yoi turned aside into the behavioral choices of homosexuality.

You know darned well when I was molested. Hell, I practically had to break your wrist to get you and your smell off me. That will teach you to not engage in an uninvited reach around. But what's really spooky is I can't get that image out of my head of you on the floor, in the fetal position, with your hands down your pants and whimpering "I'm not gay, I'm not gay!"

Anonymous scoobius dubious January 08, 2013 10:28 PM  

TAD: "Talk to me when it's a movement."
LACEDAEMONIANS: Okay.

Anonymous Curlytop January 08, 2013 10:31 PM  

Susan January 08, 2013 10:03 PM
"Funny how teachers like GuyStewart put their kids in either private school or homeschool them. It would be a refreshing change for his profession to admit that they are failures and proud of it."


If you look at the numbers, they pretty much do. ;-) The last Statistic I saw cited that around 40% of those in education send their kids to private schools or home educate. When Greenville County SC implemented Outcomes Based Ed back in the mid-80s, the teachers started yanking their kids out and sending them to area private schools. The County Board tried to pass a law that public school teachers were required to send the little tikes to the government training camps to keep employment. It was overwhelmingly defeated.

Given that I know more than a handful of educators trapped in the system— to one degree or another who home educate, I don't think the trend is waning...


@ stg58/Animal Mother January 08, 2013 8:52 PM
Read John Taylor Gatto and Charlotte Iserbyt.

Liberal Arts/Western Civilization: Great Books of the Western World by EB
Math: Saxon
Phonics/Reading: Holy Bible / Mae Carden
Science: Throw them into Junior College. The Foundational science courses are geared for people with no exposure to science at all.

I second this though we use a different phonics/language program in conjunction to Scripture(KJV).

Bauer's "Well-trained Mind" is a must for the beginner who favors the Classical Model.

There are so many great resources out there these days. Nothing like those intrepid pioneers who did this in the 70s and early 80s.


Blogger Laramie Hirsch January 08, 2013 10:38 PM  

"Funny, homeschoolers are awkward yet the increasing supply of over medicated, morally depraved thugs that the schools turn out are ok with you. Laramie, almost all the homeschoolers you know might just find you awkward to be around."

-Kickass

Golly gee. I'm so sorry I ever dared to mention an observation. You're right. Homeschooled people are bar none the best people ever, and I've never ever seen anything odd about them ever--even if I think I have. They're the bee's knees, and I should have known that my question would mean automatic insult.

Thank you all for teaching me not to dare to ask the Ilk's opinions on this. How dare I present some observations and ask advice.

Anonymous Anonymous January 08, 2013 10:40 PM  

Sounds great, now where do I go to get my property taxes back?

Anonymous scoobius dubious January 08, 2013 10:54 PM  

UNKNOWN: "And scoobius dubious flops out the old tattered and greasy race card."

Oh, hey, look everybody! It's insults and old-timey leftist shaming techniques, instead of reason, evidence, and argumentation.

Here's an idea, Unknown: no matter how uncomfortable it makes you, I am right and you are wrong, and we both know it, but you're too much of a coward to admit it. Prove otherwise, with recourse to something other than name-calling. If you can.



Anonymous CrisisEraDynamo January 08, 2013 10:54 PM  

Getting back on topic, why, Tad and Laramie Hirsch, do you find public schooling to be superior to homeschooling?

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother January 08, 2013 10:58 PM  

You know darned well when I was molested. Hell, I practically had to break your wrist to get you and your smell off me. That will teach you to not engage in an uninvited reach around. But what's really spooky is I can't get that image out of my head of you on the floor, in the fetal position, with your hands down your pants and whimpering "I'm not gay, I'm not gay!"

Ha ha I love when gay people tell me I must be gay. That is why I married a damn fine woman. Because. I. Am. Gay.

Anyway, Tad I thank you for the validation. I can now add you to my mental list of homosexuals I know who were molested at young ages. It is amazing how common that is. Tad, it is refreshing to hear you admit that you weren't born homosexual. I applaud your honesty.

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother January 08, 2013 10:59 PM  

Getting back on topic, why, Tad and Laramie Hirsch, do you find public schooling to be superior to homeschooling?

Tad loves the public schools, I mean hunting grounds.

Anonymous CrisisEraDynamo January 08, 2013 11:01 PM  

@ stg58/Animal Mother

Don't sweep me up in this stupid anti-gay red herring tangent.

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother January 08, 2013 11:01 PM  

Golly gee. I'm so sorry I ever dared to mention an observation. You're right. Homeschooled people are bar none the best people ever, and I've never ever seen anything odd about them ever--even if I think I have. They're the bee's knees, and I should have known that my question would mean automatic insult.

It's not that you made an obervation, just that you made one that you either can't back up or is so anecdotal as to be of little to no value for the purposes of our discussion.

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother January 08, 2013 11:02 PM  

Don't sweep me up in this stupid anti-gay red herring tangent.

Sorry. No more.

Anonymous Shutup, Tad. January 08, 2013 11:03 PM  

Tad likes the public school system because it was his best chance to get molested as a child. He knew if someone found out he could squeal rape and be absolved of all responsibility.

So, shutup, Tad.

Anonymous JohnR January 08, 2013 11:03 PM  

Laramie: I reread your post. You do not ask for anyone's opinion or ask for advice.

If you need advice, you have to ask for it.

Blogger Laramie Hirsch January 08, 2013 11:05 PM  

"Getting back on topic, why, Tad and Laramie Hirsch, do you find public schooling to be superior to homeschooling?"

Amazing. Absolutely amazing.

I am not saying that. I was asking for opinions and advice. Perhaps the way I typed it came off unintentionally offensive. That's all I can guess from this.

My observations are this. Academically, homeschoolers are just pure genius. But the world does not work based on your grade point average. In the business world, it all also depends on who you know and how well you get along with people. And I've noticed that homeschooled adults--people in their twenties and thirties--often seem to struggle with the rest of the working world.

Now, I am asking for opinions on these observations. I'm not drawing a line in the sand, making any declarations against homeschooling, or anything like that. I'm looking for other people's observations and testimonies that might prove hopeful.

In my first comment here, I said "...as I weigh the option of homeschooling them..." This means that I've been considering homeschooling my kids.

I don't see how people haven't understood that.

Blogger ajw308 January 08, 2013 11:07 PM  

We won our rights. We won on gay marriage. We won entirely. And you know why?

Yep, judges. You lose every election on gay marriage and gay rights, then a judge comes along and gives them to you. You've won nothing. Quit your bragging. Every gain has been handed to you by an activist judge.

Blogger ajw308 January 08, 2013 11:09 PM  

We won our rights. We won on gay marriage. We won entirely. And you know why?

Yep, judges. You lose every election on gay marriage and gay rights, then a judge comes along and gives them to you. You've won nothing. Quit your bragging. Every gain has been handed to you by an activist judge.

Anonymous Dan in Tx (bringing sunshine and joy even to the likes of Tad) January 08, 2013 11:10 PM  

Tad said: "I ask because I wonder how you would possibly understand what homosexuals have won or lost unless you have been subject to the irrational and immoral restrictions put on gays and the blatant discrimination and hatred that usually christian men and women have visited on homosexuals"

Well, I have good news for you then! As Christianity is replaced with Islam, things should be getting much better for you in the future! So turn that snarky frown upside down!

Anonymous Edjamacator January 08, 2013 11:10 PM  

It looks like 4% of students nationwide homeschool their kids. Meh! Talk to me when it's a movement.

Wait a second....4% of STUDENTS nationwide homeschool their kids? Sorry, but chances are if a student has a kid, they aren't homeschoolers. Students with kids is pretty much a public school thing, dontchaknow?

Anonymous CrisisEraDynamo January 08, 2013 11:12 PM  

@ ajw308

Yep, judges. You lose every election on gay marriage and gay rights, then a judge comes along and gives them to you. You've won nothing. Quit your bragging. Every gain has been handed to you by an activist judge.

No.

Anonymous The other skeptic January 08, 2013 11:12 PM  

Speaking of abortion perhaps we will see this as the next move on the part of welfare recipients.

Anonymous Edjamacator January 08, 2013 11:12 PM  

And I've noticed that homeschooled adults--people in their twenties and thirties--often seem to struggle with the rest of the working world.

And what's your sample size? How many homeschooled people do you know? And what is your definition of "struggle" concerning the rest of the working world?

You know, it could just be you, too.

Anonymous Edjamacator January 08, 2013 11:14 PM  

Speaking of abortion perhaps we will see this as the next move on the part of welfare recipients.

It will only be a matter of time. They just aren't smart enough to have figured it out yet. Plus, they seem to do a good job disabling kids all on their own.

Anonymous Edjamacator January 08, 2013 11:17 PM  

@ ajw308

Yep, judges. You lose every election on gay marriage and gay rights, then a judge comes along and gives them to you. You've won nothing. Quit your bragging. Every gain has been handed to you by an activist judge.

No.


And in other news, in a recent poll, 100% of people find Obama to be a great president. Let's not mention that the poll was taken among black welfare recipients.

Anonymous zen0 January 08, 2013 11:18 PM  

@ Laramie Hersch

I say this, because I want answers, not because I'm trying to be antagonistic.

Maybe they have not been properly taught how to socialize with degenerate retards? I guess one might see this IS a failing of the homeschooling movement, or one might think, "what's the upside?"

Anonymous zen0 January 08, 2013 11:23 PM  

@ Laramie Hirsch January 08, 2013 11:05 PM

And I've noticed that homeschooled adults--people in their twenties and thirties--often seem to struggle with the rest of the working world.

See zen0 January 08, 2013 11:18 PM

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother January 08, 2013 11:25 PM  

And I've noticed that homeschooled adults--people in their twenties and thirties--often seem to struggle with the rest of the working world.

Laramie, this guy right here was home schooled most of his life, was a platoon sergeant in Iraq and is now middle level sales management. "Socially awkward" and I don't live on the same planet. My four other siblings are equally socially well adjusted.

In looking at a home schooled kid you consider to be socially awkward, you really have to step back and evaluate why you think the kid is socially awkward, then look at the parents. The problem is the same with kids in public school. Look at the parents. Jocks probably have parents who are jocks themselves.

Look at the atmosphere in the school. Why are so many kids being bullied to the point of suicide? Why are so many kids leaving high school as emotional cripples from the abuse? Why is the violence so endemic, the drug use and alcohol use so high? Why don't they know anything?

How many home schooled kids have the above problems? How many can hold adult conversations with adults? Ask yourself, Laramie, what you want for your children? To be cool, or to be well educated, fully functioning citizens?

But the world does not work based on your grade point average. In the business world, it all also depends on who you know and how well you get along with people.

You just made the case for home schooling. You are exactly right, the business world doesn't work on your GPA, to a point. I was sitting in a hiring conference today with the top hiring managers in my company. We were being shown a presentation by a company called Orion International about their placement process. They only place military personnel, either in or out of the military, in the biggest and best companies in the country. They have a special hiring conference, called the DCC, Distinguished Candidate Conference. The ticket to be considered for that Conference is GPA, among other things.

The most unrealistic aspect of public education is the social structure. Where else in life will you be grouped with 30 people your own age for eight hours a day? Which company operates in such a manner? None. This is why home schooled kids who can converse with adults do well in the business world. Apparently, they also do well enough for Harvard, who has a group of recruiters whose sole mission in life is to recruit home schooled kids to go to Harvard.

Anonymous Anonymous January 08, 2013 11:25 PM  

Laramie Hirsch,

You asked a question. Now, you may not have liked the response, but you have to admit that the question was provocative.

Further more, the question was ambiguous, define socially awkward.

Seriously, you said that homeschool kids grow up to be strange. Did you really expect us to say, yeah, my kids are strange? Strange how?

They don't dress like sluts in training? They don't act like gang bangers? They read books and talk intelligently?

Your free to send your kids to the gubmit edmukashun store, nobody is demanding you homeschool your kids. But, when those kids get knocked up at 15 or start a budding criminal career as a drug pusher or vandalism. Make sure you celebrate the fact that they didn't grow up to be socially awkward or strange.

farmer Tom

Blogger Survival Gardener, AKA David the Good January 08, 2013 11:26 PM  

Shawn: "For those worried about homeschooling...we were sending our daughter to Kindergarten at one of the most expensive schools in the city. Towards the end of the year they tell us that we need to hold her back as she is behind. After testing her myself, I find that it is true."

My parents took me out of school for the same reason. I was "behind" and "not emotionally ready" for the next grade, etc., etc., etc.

Mom got me reading at home in a matter of months, then I devoured every book I could get my hands on. By third grade I had read through the "Lord of the Rings" and most of Dad's set of encyclopedias.

Turns out I was simply high IQ and bored to death in the classroom.

Anonymous Pericles January 08, 2013 11:28 PM  

Tim Tebow was home schooled. Although his throwing motion could use some improvement, he doesn't see at all socially awkward.

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother January 08, 2013 11:30 PM  

Tim Tebow was home schooled. Although his throwing motion could use some improvement, he doesn't see at all socially awkward.

Exhibit 1: Camilla Belle.

Anonymous Curlytop January 08, 2013 11:40 PM  

"Now, I am asking for opinions on these observations. I'm not drawing a line in the sand, making any declarations against homeschooling, or anything like that. I'm looking for other people's observations and testimonies that might prove hopeful."

Well, Laramie...

Socially, my experiencing spanning dealings with home-educators from multiple states is that the kids are very well-adjusted. Our family is personal friends with at least a half a dozen adults who were home-educated and wow, is it amazing to see the trend span to their children. One has a Bachelors in AgriSciences and a Masters in Toxicology, the other is our Dentist, one is a college roommate...who I might add was the best one I had out of my whole college experience.

One family who we looked upon as mentors, have 7 children spanning adulthood into marriage/kids, all the way down to a preschooler. None of my experiences have led me to conclude that "almost, or most" home-educated kids grow up to be "socially awkward." I can think of maybe 2-3 families I thought were a bit off, but that's a far cry from the first-hand accounts I see when dealing with public schooled children/adults. In those 2-3 cases, it was squarely on the parents so public education would most certainly acerbated the problem.

Furthermore, the stats don't measure up to the "socially awkward" label either. Home-educated people tend to be more civic-minded and function quite well with a variety of people. They have less drug and alcohol problems and suicide. You tell me where you will find 60 kids playing on a playground for an hour or so, ranging in ages 6-16 without ONE SINGLE ALTERCATION other than this one boy flipping off the bars and breaking his arm. ;-)

We live in a descending society and what passes as normal drops lower and lower by the passing day. That's NOT something to imitate.

Anonymous Curlytop January 08, 2013 11:45 PM  

Aaaaaand, I see Zeno and Stg58 made similar but sharper points without as many grammatical errors that I can't edit out now. My lack of sleep is showing. Carry on. I'm off. :-)

Anonymous Reallist January 08, 2013 11:55 PM  

We have enrolled our son in a private Christian school and we're pleased with how things are going. We had him in private school for grades one through five and public for grades six through nine. We considered homeschooling him but it's just not a practical alternative right now. These discussions usually come down to homeschooling versus public schooling but in many communities there are private schools that are excellent alternatives.

Anonymous RC January 09, 2013 12:02 AM  

"In my first comment here, I said "...as I weigh the option of homeschooling them..." This means that I've been considering homeschooling my kids." -- Laramie

If you're being genuine here, then ask questions. Why would anyone state that everyone that has "Xed" is weird. Can someone give me advice on how to X my own kid?

Bottom line: Your question, as it were, is just a tad awkward and a bit strange.

Anonymous Aeoli January 09, 2013 12:06 AM  

I was homeschooled (K-7) and turned out awkward (coincidence, probably). Then I read Heartiste for a couple of months and I wasn't awkward anymore. Turns out that social skills are very easy, given the correct framework.

Too bad about two decades of lies and delusions and all, which left me pretty neurotic. Knowledge doesn't make pain go away. Homeschoolers: Teach your sons Game and start early.

(Funny story about the neuroses: a coworker mentioned today that she had a dream wherein I shot up the workplace. Looks like the nonverbal signals need some routine maintainance. Omega's a persistent bitch.)

Blogger Frank Brady January 09, 2013 12:18 AM  

Shut up, Tad.

Blogger Laramie Hirsch January 09, 2013 12:32 AM  

I've been railroaded into defending my observations. Meh.

It is argued to me: "What? You WANT to send your kids to school to be able to communicate with a bunch of degenerate retards?"

Yet, the world is made up of degenerate retards.

Is it not irresponsible to just blame everyone else, rather than to learn how to function with society?

I sometimes see these academically brilliant people with social problems as players coming to a game without the right equipment.

Being able to function socially is not about being cool or trendy. It's about communicating, which is important.

People are asking me for specific examples of "socially awkward" homeschooled kids. Okay.

I have an engineer friend who is in Research and Development. He's told me of many stories where he works with other engineers who are academically functional, but they are socially worthless. These homeschooled engineers are unable to work on a team. They are often so bad to deal with, that you cannot get any actual work accomplished. Serious engineering and development problems are bigger than one man, and teamwork is often necessary.

Other issues?

I have a colleague who tutors kids at a center. It is so easy to pick out the homeschooled kids. One issue is that they lack their place when adults are talking. Often, the homeschooled kids will interrupt the talking adults and try to converse in the adult conversation as an adult--even though they are 10 years old. Meanwhile, they cannot interact well with the other children at all. It appears as if they are put a generation behind if communicating with adults is all that they can do.

Not to say that homeschooled kids cannot develop good social skills; it's just that they seem insulated from reality.

@ stg58/Animal Mother
"Apparently, they also do well enough for Harvard, who has a group of recruiters whose sole mission in life is to recruit home schooled kids to go to Harvard."

Again, I'm talking about real life. Harvard is just academia. Besides, they also have recruiters who look out for kids educated in private school. And public school. Recruiters for all of these types.

@ farmer Tom

They don't dress like sluts in training? They don't act like gang bangers? They read books and talk intelligently?...
those kids get knocked up at 15 or start a budding criminal career as a drug pusher or vandalism.


You are picking extreme outliers. The extreme examples. I'm basing my observations on people I know and people I've seen.

Blogger papabear January 09, 2013 12:41 AM  

"I have an engineer friend who is in Research and Development. He's told me of many stories where he works with other engineers who are academically functional, but they are socially worthless. These homeschooled engineers are unable to work on a team. They are often so bad to deal with, that you cannot get any actual work accomplished. Serious engineering and development problems are bigger than one man, and teamwork is often necessary."

I know of socially worthless engineers who went to public schools. Maybe it's an problem for engineer personalities and not homeschooling.

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother January 09, 2013 12:42 AM  

Off topic, but someone suggested the Texas members start a Meetup. Well, here it is!

The Texas Ilk!!

Anonymous The other skeptic January 09, 2013 12:43 AM  

Not to say that homeschooled kids cannot develop good social skills; it's just that they seem insulated from reality.

And yet, the public school system is doing so well at socializing people

Anonymous The other skeptic January 09, 2013 12:45 AM  

These homeschooled engineers are unable to work on a team.

You mean, a team that includes worthless touchy-feely people? A team that includes people who don't know their shit?

Anonymous Soga January 09, 2013 12:51 AM  

I'd rather bridges were built by socially awkward engineers than public-schooled engineers who don't know how to add or subtract.

Anonymous The other skeptic January 09, 2013 12:54 AM  

More examples of public school education perhaps.

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother January 09, 2013 12:55 AM  

Engineers have been notorious for decades as being socially awkward. Reference the scene in Office Space where the "people person" defends his existence to the efficiency experts as the vital conduit between customers and engineers, because the engineers aren't people persons.

Haven't you heard any engineer jokes? They have been around for decades. A Canadian coworker told me the difference between an extroverted engineer and an introverted engineer is the extroverted engineer looks at your shoes when he is talking to you.

I guarantee the basis for that joke was not a home schooled chemical engineer. Engineers are universally regarded as socially awkward, but the more awkward they are, generally the better their work, which is what counts.

Anonymous Roswitha January 09, 2013 12:59 AM  

You are picking extreme outliers. The extreme examples. I'm basing my observations on people I know and people I've seen.

Really? The only examples you've given are things you have been told by others.

Blogger chu January 09, 2013 12:59 AM  

15er,
I just started homeschooling my children (oldest is 6) this year and we are loving it. We are doing Classical Conversations. It was very daunting and there are TONS of curriculum out there. I was fortunate to find a big community of homeschoolers in my area and they helped me immensely. Just to help you get your feet wet, get the book "For the Children's Sake": http://www.amazon.com/For-Childrens-Sake-Foundations-Education/dp/1433506955/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1357710667&sr=8-1&keywords=charlotte+mason+sake+of+the+children
Because I went thru public education, that book helped me redefine what is education

Anonymous Lulabelle January 09, 2013 1:12 AM  

"My wife and I are considering a move to homeschooling (3 girl: 4,5,7). We are feeling overwhelmed at the prospect - mostly from a not-knowing-where-to-start sort of thing. What are some resources/materials/programs/curriculum the Ilk would suggest?"
15er, you and your wife may want to look around at this website:
www.homeschoolshare.com

Blogger Laramie Hirsch January 09, 2013 1:14 AM  

@ Roswitha

The only examples you've given are things you have been told by others.

Well, I could mention this one friend I had. She was homeschooled. She couldn't understand many jokes and things that our college study group discussed. Ninety percent of our group would be discussing something that has to do with other people, talking about something we were able to catch on to--such as how our instructor was treating us in class, or how one group in the college class was trying to screw our group over, or something like that--yet she constantly clueless.

She desperately wanted to fit in with people. She got her nipples pierced and a few tattoos, and she showed them off to everyone she met...at school and work.

She got married shortly after college. Divorced less than a year later. Last I checked, she's drastically lopped off all of her hair.

So, there's one person I know. :)

Anonymous The other skeptic January 09, 2013 1:16 AM  

Psychiatric drugs and killings

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother January 09, 2013 1:16 AM  

People of all types do all types of strange things.

She got her nipples pierced and a few tattoos, and she showed them off to everyone she met...at school and work.

Pics or GTFO. Just kidding!

Anonymous Mr. Pea January 09, 2013 1:19 AM  

But even if there's extracurricular social activities, these kids still seem to grow up to be strange.

A peculiar people.

You get it, or you don't.

Anonymous The other skeptic January 09, 2013 1:36 AM  


She got her nipples pierced and a few tattoos, and she showed them off to everyone she met...at school and work.


I must be old fashioned, but piercings other than in the ears turn me off. Especially those in personal places. And even then, I don't expect males to have pierced ears, especially at work.

Anonymous Chromoly Man January 09, 2013 1:47 AM  

Yay the homeschooling revolution!

Anonymous The other skeptic January 09, 2013 1:48 AM  

You too can learn all about the suffering of those with AIDS

Anonymous bw January 09, 2013 2:04 AM  

"[Administration] covers the surface of society with a network of small complicated rules, minute and uniform, through which the most original minds and the most energetic characters cannot penetrate, to rise above the crowd. The will of man is not shattered, but softened, bent, guided; men are seldom forced by it to act, but they are constantly restrained from acting; such a power does not destroy, but it prevents existence; it does not tyrannize, but it compresses, extinguishes, and stupefies a people, till each nation is reduced to be nothing better than a flock of timid and industrious animals, of which government is the shepherd." - Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America (1835)

Anonymous elmer January 09, 2013 2:28 AM  

Some here have mentioned JTG. I believe the following is the most profound admission, in entire human history:

One of the most interesting by-products of Prussian schooling turned out to be the two most devastating wars of modern history. Erich Maria Remarque, in his classic All Quiet on the Western Front, tells us that the First World War was caused by the tricks of schoolmasters, and the famous Protestant theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer said that the Second World War was the inevitable product of good schooling.

So, anyone for more schooling ? I mean, we do need another war. It's like, we don't have enough as it is...

Anonymous JohnS January 09, 2013 4:37 AM  

Schools are obsolete. Check this out:

http://dvice.com/archives/2012/10/ethiopian-kids.php

Kids teach themselves English with zoom tablets running "Nell" narrative teaching software explicitly based on Neal Stephenson's "Diamond Age" book.

Apologies, using html doesn't seem to want to work using my DROID razr.

Anonymous Chromoly Man January 09, 2013 4:42 AM  

Kickass: Further, amazing how serious we are being taken at such a small percentage. And we dont even throw ourselves parades...
-
You should.

Anonymous Greatheart January 09, 2013 5:44 AM  

Tad January 08, 2013 10:12 PM: "...I wonder how you would possibly understand what homosexuals have won or lost unless you have been subject to the irrational and immoral restrictions put on gays and the blatant discrimination and hatred that usually christian men and women have visited on homosexuals...We no longer require pity], no longer want it and frankly never did before. So please, keep it yourself and within your circle of Gods."

The main reason for these victories you tout is that enough brain-washed degenerates got into the government workforce and academia and have convinced those mislead public school attenders that you are such nice people that how could you be bad?

The restrictions "placed" on you were for the betterment of societies as a whole. Your lifestyle is destructive, as well as deviant, and has no lasting value for future generations.

Most people who dislike home-schooling do so because the home-schoolers don't learn the same "values" as public attenders, so they cannot be recruited as easily into "alternate" lifestyles. Since those who choose homosexuality cannot reproduce, naturally, they must recruit; it hurts the effort when young, impressionable targets are removed from that influence.

Those who follow the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob don't hate you. God doesn't even hate you, personally. He can't stand the life you've chosen, and because you know that, your heart is full of hate. The only people who truly hate are those who hate the truth, and the truth is you are nothing more than a rebellious-hearted child who wants to do what he wants with no regard to consequences.

The only morals atheists exhibit are those from religious influences. Without a just God there can be no morals; the ends always justify the means in their minds, where lies and deceit churn in order to further their agendas. Home-schoolers learn healthy morals in addition to self preservation, self control and self awareness.

And I believe that is what people, who think like you, really hate the most.

Blogger James Dixon January 09, 2013 6:46 AM  

> And I've noticed that homeschooled adults--people in their twenties and thirties--often seem to struggle with the rest of the working world.

>> There are so many great resources out there these days. Nothing like those intrepid pioneers who did this in the 70s and early 80s.

2013-30=1983. Do you see a connection here?

Or, as I and others noted, the problem could be you.

> He's told me of many stories where he works with other engineers who are academically functional, but they are socially worthless.

They're engineers, Laramie. You're talking the career designed for the socially awkward. Being one, I should know. And no, I wasn't home schooled.

> One issue is that they lack their place when adults are talking. Often, the homeschooled kids will interrupt the talking adults and try to converse in the adult conversation as an adult--even though they are 10 years old.

And this is a problem how? Perhaps they know the material better than the adult speaking?

> Meanwhile, they cannot interact well with the other children at all. It appears as if they are put a generation behind if communicating with adults is all that they can do.

They interact with the tutor but don't interact with the children? Why exactly are they there? Since you say he's a tutor, I assume to learn something. So how do you expect them to do so if they don't interact with the person trying to teach the material? It sounds to me like they're behaving the way you would want an employee to behave.

And this would affect the workplace exactly how? Do you have a lot of children at your workplace.

> You are picking extreme outliers. The extreme examples. I'm basing my observations on people I know and people I've seen.

First, they're not outliers any more. You're the one who is out of touch with reality in that regard. Second, the observations of others here disagree with yours.

Educating your children is your responsibility. How you choose to do so is entirely up to you. Obviously, if you think social interactions are the be all and end all of the workplace and life, then you'll want to have your children having as many social interactions as possible, and the public school system might very well be your best option. Don't expect them to learn much though, and don't be surprised if many of those social interactions have undesirable results.

Anonymous RedJack January 09, 2013 7:04 AM  

I guarantee the basis for that joke was not a home schooled chemical engineer. Engineers are universally regarded as socially awkward, but the more awkward they are, generally the better their work, which is what counts.

Had a boss who desperatly wanted all the engineers to go drinking with the sales staff one night. We did, and the sales girls started to complain to their manager that the engineers "looked mad" the whole night. We were. It was like being caged with a loud bunch of hens who kept picking at you all night long. They were trying to "sales flirt" with us (most of the sales team was women for a reason) and we just kept getting more annoyed.
Engineers are odd ducks. They are no matter what country they come from. Most US companies introverts very well. And it isn't just that we are socially ackward. There is a strong trend "I don't care" there also.

Anonymous scoobius dubious January 09, 2013 7:22 AM  

Children who have a decent IQ, a fairly healthy home life, an emotionally healthy connection to their parents and siblings and neighbors, and who are relatively free of exposure to the more egregious sociopathic trends (so, in other words, most middle-class white people) are in my experience able to make much faster educational progress on their own, with a bit of guidance, than they are in the mass-education factories.

I went to a grade school that was about 30% kids from normal but unambitious families, 30% kids from families which should have been normal but were too lazy or unfocused to raise their kids right, and about 40% untermenschen. Basically it was a giant holding pen/storage area, with daily meetings of Fight Club, membership in which was mandatory. I started school already having been taught to read by my parents circa age 4 or 5, then sat stupefied through grades 1-3 while the slow types, roughly half the class, learned to read. At school I read retarded selections from those Dick and Jane readers. Then I went home and read Coleridge and H.G. Wells without telling anybody. The curriculum from grades 4 through 8, which took 5 f#cking years to plow through, could have been mastered by a non-retard in a matter of months. At age 11 I built a sort of robot, using parts from my father's workshop and books from the local library. I brought it in to school to impress the other kids, which succeeded. The robot drew a lot of attention because it was inventive and fun. Not a single teacher ever made a note of such a thing, or drew me aside to give further robot encouragement. Well at least that was one time when I didn't get the shit kicked out of me for doing something interesting.

Children have a tremendous amount of mental energy at a young age; coupled together with their natural curiosity, it can be a remarkable force. Looking back I am furious at the way my time and energy was wasted, mostly in trying to find ways to avoid being stomped by retarded savages. I could have been learning multiple foreign languages and actual science and math that wasn't simple arithmetic and what-not, [JOHN BELUSHI VOICE] But NOOOOOOOO!! I had to spend that time learning to walk in orderly lines during bathroom break, and learning how to do different styles of graffiti in order to form strategic alliances with worthless thugs.

Well I'll admit graffiti can be fun when you're 12. But it's not THAT fun.

Anonymous Shutterbug January 09, 2013 8:30 AM  

I'm going to chime in and add as well that the social awkwardness is a trait of the kinds of people who work in engineering rather than a homeschool trait. The engineers I know are rather shy and introverted. But why is shyness and and a lack of interest in being part of the crowd considered a bad thing?

My son is 14 and we've been homeschooling since August. Best thing we ever did. I worked as a special ed associate and was in my son's classes with him working with another student during my son's 7th grade year at public school. I saw first hand what my son was "taught" and how his peers behaved. Literally HALF of the kids in his math class failed the class. I saw the list. The teacher dumbed down the curriculum and finally (and illegally) gave the kids 100% on any assignment that was simply completed and turned in whether the problems were done correctly or not.

In english, the teacher worked on his masters online while the kids were "read to" by an audio book. Writing assignments consisted of writing fortunes for fortune cookies, or writing stories by each student writing a sentence on a piece of paper, then passing the paper to the person behind him who would add another sentence and so on until a "story" was written. The stories were about farts, puking, unicorns, sports, etc. About 1 week of the entire school year was spent on grammar.

His science teacher did a pretty decent job. I have no complaints there. His social studies teacher was notorious for losing homework papers then blaming the students. We alleviated this problem by making photocopies of all assignments prior to turning them in.

Overall, discipline in the school was non-existant. Simian is a great word to describe the kids' behavior. I finally used my cell phone to record the behavior of the students, and that was the final straw that convinced my husband that we need to homeschool.

My son is much more relaxed and happy learning at home away from the chaos where he can focus and long and as deeply as he needs on a subject. He hated to read when at public school. I began to despair that he would ever like to read as he was lukewarm about every book I introduced to him: until I gave him "The Hobbit." He fell in love with Tolkien. He says it's because the writing is so good. Now, he's reading "The Lord of the Rings" and enjoying it even more than "The Hobbit."

For my family, the freedom homeschooling affords is very important. If we want to travel or do something other than lessons, we do it. The computer goes with us, or lessons are done on Saturday or in the evening. Sports and 4H are still a big part of our lives and we make sure he spends time with his buddies when he wants. He actually gets along better with his friends because he's not involved in the drama, and he hasn't been annoyed by stupid behavior and boring lessons all day.

Anonymous scoobius dubious January 09, 2013 8:43 AM  

@Shutterbug: out of curiosity... what was the racial/ethnic makeup of the school you took your son out of?

There was a point in my elementary school, um, experience (I won't say "education") where the teachers gave up teaching me anything further and basically assigned me to unpaid work as a full-time private tutor to some of the more backwards savages.

I still wonder if I could sue them for back pay and benefits.

OpenID simplytimothy January 09, 2013 9:22 AM  

@LaramieHirsch, my initial comment should have been more thoughtful. My gut reaction was 'socialized into what!' and I replied with a touch of snark.

I am amazed that anybody finds our current culture as anything to be socialized into. It is Godless, depraved, immoral, in-humane, soul-killing and empty. I hate it and I am happy that the home-schooling movement is there so that kids can be happy, raised in a Godly culture--and better educated as well.


Anonymous Godfrey January 09, 2013 9:37 AM  

Government controlled schooling was founded by the Prussians in order to create more obedient soldiers.

Anonymous Redjack January 09, 2013 10:31 AM  

Just read my post.

I need to stop typing on my phone. It never comes out right.

Anonymous Daniel January 09, 2013 11:04 AM  

Public Schools are flashpoints for social cult worship. 9/11 has been institutionalized, but it now lacks the spiritual verve of current violence - it has calcified into arcane symbolism, but needs supplementation with current political sparking (Aurora, Sandy Hook). See also the role of Priest taken up by the Commander-in-Chief following Sandy Hook.

“Of course, many serial murders are nothing more than the work of a single individual acting out a graphic horror movie he saw, or responding to powerful “psychotic” impulses for aggression and predation. But many other serial murders involve a cult protected by the U.S. government and the corporate media, with strong ties to the police. These murders are actually intricately choreographed rituals; performed first on a very intimate and secret scale, among the initiates themselves in order to program them, them on a grand scale, amplified incalculably by the electronic media. In the end what we have is a highly symbolic, ritual working broadcast to millions of people, a Satanic inversion; a Black mass, where the “pews” are filled by the entire nation and through which humanity is paganized, brutalized and debased in this, the “Nigredo” phase of the alchemical process.

The French adept Antonin Artaud, architect of the theory of the “Theater of Cruelty” with its transformative power, and the inspiration for the extreme sex-and-death media of our time, had this to say about the processing of the Group Mind: ‘Aside from trifling witchcraft of country sorcerers, there are tricks of global hoodoo in which all alerted consciousnesses participate periodically… That is how strange forces are aroused and transported to the astral vault, to that dark dome which is composed above all of… the poisonous aggressiveness of the evil minds of most people… the formidable tentacular oppression of a kind of civic magic which will soon appear undisguised.’

The issue of controlling humanity with esoteric words and symbols encoded within a play, a media spectacular or a ritual is one of the most difficult for people to comprehend. That is why most people are viewed with utter contempt as “cowans,” “the profane,” the “gentiles” and the “goyim” (cattle) by secret society initiates. “I think we are farmed,” Charles Fort said of humanity. It was Fort who also suggested that man deliberately invented the dogma of materialism in order to shield himself from the evidence of what was being done to him by means of psycho- spiritual warfare methods hyped by “coincidence,” symbolism and ritual.”
- Michael A. Hoffman, Secret Societies and Psychological Warfare

Anonymous JW January 09, 2013 2:44 PM  

"The other skeptic "

Thanks for the link...very interesting. I wonder if any of this will end up in the White House discussion of firarms and mass shootings.

Anonymous Kickass January 09, 2013 4:40 PM  

@ Greatheart
A truly awesome comment

Anonymous Shutterbug January 09, 2013 5:43 PM  

@Scoobius: the school is 99.9% white and rural. There is one black family who relocated here when they lost everything in Hurricane Katrina. There are about 30 kids per grade. We moved to rural Iowa 3 years ago thinking a small, rural school like the ones my husband and I grew up in would be in improvement over the drugs, sex, political correctness, and drama of the affluent suburban school the kids previously attended. WRONG.

Blogger Justthisguy January 09, 2013 7:42 PM  

When they skipped me from the first half of the third grade to the second half of the fourth grade, my Mom was able to catch me up over the Christmas vacation. I was able to skate through fourth grade, reading Clarke's SF instead of paying attention, because I got straight As. It didn't hurt that I sang next to Mrs. Cooper, my fourth-grade teacher, every Sunday. (I was a soprano back then, being a little kid.)

Blogger The Anti-Gnostic January 09, 2013 8:40 PM  

the abnormality is in irrational discrimination imposed upon homosexuals and codified into federal and state codes. But we are fixing that abnormality state by state.

The abnormality is that it's unhygienic and infertile. Biology has a way of dealing with this even if you think there is no God.

No species can survive more than a very small minority engaging in homosexual behavior. It is not "normal" in any sense and there is an instinctive revulsion to homosexual acts in the vast majority of homo sapiens. Children are naturally repulsed by effeminate males and masculine females. It's funny how the supposed rationalists swerve around evolution when it's politically incorrect.

Recall too that from the time we allowed unchecked homosexual activity, it took them ten years to spread AIDS through their ranks. It takes costly therapies to keep a lot of them alive, and now they're spreading antibiotic-resistant venereal diseases. As the anti-retrovirals get ramped up, viruses will follow the same course. Thanks, gays.

Blogger James Dixon January 09, 2013 8:56 PM  

> We moved to rural Iowa 3 years ago thinking a small, rural school like the ones my husband and I grew up in would be in improvement over the drugs, sex, political correctness, and drama of the affluent suburban school the kids previously attended. WRONG.

Shutterbug, I graduated in 1976 from a rural school with a total enrollment of about 140. Of my graduating class, two of the girls graduated pregnant. I never bothered to keep track of the drug use, but I'd guess it was equivalent.

Anonymous Shutterbug January 09, 2013 9:39 PM  

James, the problems are more profound now than when we grew up (I graduated hs in 1986). In my class of 52, 4 girls had become mothers by graduation. And those are the ones who didn't have abortions. In spite of the promiscuity which was practiced OUTSIDE school hours and was embarrassing for those caught, I still think I got a decent education and in the classrooms and hallways the kids, other than a couple known troublemakers, behaved. The teachers didn't put up with crap and if parents got a phone call about bad behavior at school there was hell to pay at home.

Now, the kids run wild, don't turn in their homework and don't care. You can't embarrass them.

Anonymous DonReynolds January 09, 2013 10:31 PM  

Just another excuse for the failure of public education. First, it was "white flight" as those who could afford to move out of the big cities did so as fast as they could. (This was the period of forced integration in large cities.) Second, it was "private schools" that were taking away all the good teachers and students, leaving the dregs to the public schools. Those no-good Roman Catholics were first on the list, but pretty soon the other churches followed with their own schools. Third, then it was voucher programs, which enabled the low income individuals to go to private schools. That was starving the public schools of badly needed money and taking away those promising low-income kids (and any teachers worth a flip). Now, they want to blame home schooling as the reason why public schools really stink. No one wants to talk about the real reason why public schools are the worst and to be truthful, not many give a damn either way. So few graduate anyway. Who cares if they do not produce model citizens?

Blogger Galt-in-Da-Box January 13, 2013 11:54 PM  

"As my toddlers get older, and as I weigh the option of homeschooling them, I cannot help but recall how almost every single homeschooled person became socially awkward in their adulthood.

If homeschooling can work, I'm for it. But even if there's extracurricular social activities, these kids still seem to grow up to be strange."

Funny, I was raised a government-indoctrinated mind-numbed robot just like you obviously are, and I turned out to be as "strange/socially awkward" as the people you are labelling.

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