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Wednesday, January 09, 2013

It's worse than that

It is belatedly dawning on everyone that not everyone should go to college:
Richard Meeusen, chairman, president and CEO of Racine Federated’s parent company, Badger Meter. “We have presidents and leaders who say every child should have the opportunity to go to college.

“Unfortunately, it sends the message to parents that if they don’t send their kids to college, they’re failing.”

“Now we’re saying, ‘Where are our electricians, auto mechanics, HVAC (heating, ventilation and air-conditioning) workers and CNC (computer numeric control) operators?’” Meeusen said.

He added, “We’ve ripped out all the shop classes and replace them with calculus.”
The problem isn't that we've ripped out all the shop classes and replaced them with calculus.  It's that we've ripped them out and replaced them with diversity classes that teach how Harriet Tubman won the civil war, "science" classes about outmoded evolutionary theory and nonexistent global warming, and "sex-ed" classes about Heather's two mommies and Cho Fong's two daddies.

What we're seeing is nothing less than a complete divorce of education and academic accreditation.  All an academic degree now assures is that the individual has been extensively immersed in the expected ideological and socio-sexual propaganda.

Labels:

112 Comments:

Anonymous JohnR January 09, 2013 9:10 AM  

Vox, First sentence should have an "isn't" instead of an "is."

Anonymous scoobius dubious January 09, 2013 9:14 AM  

"and "sex-ed" classes about Heather's two mommies and Cho Fong's two daddies."

Ultimately the real problem is that people named Heather are being taught that they are (for nebulous unspecified reasons which only Seth and Ari can explain) somehow obliged to share/surrender their entire country and civilization to people named Cho Fong, Mohammed, Pradep, Ching Wang, Mohammed, Malik, Srivantrayavastra, Xojia, Mohammed, Thuc Nguyen, Mohammed, Paco, Flaco, Chaco, Taco, Mohammed, Nkulu, Pedro, Mohammed, Pedro, Mohammed, Pedro, Mohammed, Maria, Maria, Maria, Yolanda, Maria, Maria, Maria, Pedro, Mohammed, X!tungu, Mohammed, Xitajoso, and Mohammed.

All men are created equal! So, meet your new equals!! And guess what -- they all want white girls, too!

Except for Mohammed(5). He just wants to rape underage white girls for as long as he can, then marry his cousin from Pakistan, and then bring her here, along with her entire family/clan/village/political party.

God bless America, land that we------
Call any vegetable, call it by name.......




Anonymous ridip January 09, 2013 9:35 AM  

Scoob you absolutely cracked me up.

After reading the other thread I found myself wondering how long before all the home schoolers come to the same conclusion about college?

For the most part it is malinvestment of time and money with too high am opportunity cost.

People are continually surprised I have no degree and yet know more about my job and my coworkers jobs than anyone around me.

We are finally getting to where I no longer feel bound to a company just to be insured. I make enough we are paying for our own medical care from a provider our insurance doesn't cover and we are in better health than the traditional route ever produced. I completely expect to be

Anonymous ridip January 09, 2013 9:37 AM  

I completely expect to be working for myself with employees within 3-5 years.

Anonymous RINO January 09, 2013 9:37 AM  

Most people go through public school and college without doing calculus either.

Anonymous VryeDenker January 09, 2013 9:40 AM  

I spent two months as an apprentice electrician fitting and maintaining CNC's and PLC's (basically a factory computer, if anyone didn't know). Seeing a machine perform a routine you just programmed into it is way more satisfying than a purely software-development job, but alas, I was too old to start on the 8 years it would have taken me to get a proper qualification. I already had 5 years of IT under my belt.

In short, it was the nicest job ever and I would go back in time and convince a 15 year old me to go to a technical high school and study electrical engineering if it were possible. Not that I don't like being a software developer, mind you. The money's a bit better (but not as much as you would think - maintenance electricians and electrical engineers can earn big bucks if they complete a technical degree).

Blogger redlegben January 09, 2013 9:52 AM  

We are discussing welding with our 16 year old. He could get the certification before heading to college where he wants to go into engineering. I think it's a great idea. It provides the means to pay for the college and a family if need be. You can always find welding work on the nights and weekends. Plus, it's a skill that will always be in demand.

Blogger A January 09, 2013 9:59 AM  

It seems there are a lot of commentators here who have children that are hard workers. My question is, how did you get your children to take advantage of useful knowledge and skills? I was smart enough as a kid to recognize the benefits of such things, but I was terribly lazy and spent my time playing games and watching tv. My parents didn't interact with me, and my dad would get so angry when working on things I never wanted to help him or learn from him because I would be afraid. So, how do you get your kids/selves to work so hard?

Anonymous VryeDenker January 09, 2013 10:00 AM  

Assembling burglar bars, security gates and palisade fences can generate a substantial income in the right area.

Plus, welding looks cool.

Anonymous ZT January 09, 2013 10:01 AM  

Not sure that is a bad thing. Just think of how it lets people compete? I'm in a technical field and my salary keeps going up because there isn't enough of us to go around. I have head hunters that contact me on a near weekly basis because I have skills that are in demand and colleges are not outputting enough students even though every year Government stats keep saying techfields or growing. Yet colleges still cannot produce enough people. Why because not enough people can do the work because they have been lobotomized at the schools.

Blogger Giraffe January 09, 2013 10:06 AM  

Vox, First sentence after the quoted portion should have an "isn't" instead of an "is."

Anonymous Daniel January 09, 2013 10:08 AM  

I had Calculus a couple of times in college. Nice girl from a vibrant neighborhood. Her mom asked the doctor in the delivery room to name her something classy. It was either that or Norepinephrine.

Anonymous Shutup, Tad January 09, 2013 10:15 AM  

Cho Fong, Mohammed, Pradep, Ching Wang, Mohammed, Malik, Srivantrayavastra, Xojia, Mohammed, Thuc Nguyen, Mohammed, Paco, Flaco, Chaco, Taco, Mohammed, Nkulu, Pedro, Mohammed, Pedro, Mohammed, Pedro, Mohammed, Maria, Maria, Maria, Yolanda, Maria, Maria, Maria, Pedro, Mohammed, X!tungu, Mohammed, Xitajoso, and Mohammed.

and Tad.

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother January 09, 2013 10:15 AM  

PLC-Programmable Logic Controller. The PLC replaced the banks of relays that used to turn industrial processes and components on and off. The logic used is called "Ladder Logic" after the physical configuration of the relay setups.

PLC's are now used in almost every industry where automated machinery is present. Automation today is almost completely based on the PLC.

Anonymous Stilicho January 09, 2013 10:16 AM  

ZT, all tech fields are not equal. What is your field?

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother January 09, 2013 10:17 AM  

PLC-Programmable Logic Controller. The PLC replaced the banks of relays that used to turn industrial processes and components on and off. The logic used is called "Ladder Logic" after the physical configuration of the relay setups.

PLC's are now used in almost every industry where automated machinery is present. Automation today is almost completely based on the PLC.

Anonymous Paul Sacramento January 09, 2013 10:19 AM  

Core basic math - addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, algebra, problem solving, should be learned to the point where a student is high proficient in them because these are the core of math in "real life".
Calculus should be left to those that need it.
Better to drill the basics and make them second nature.
I have a degree in Mechanical Eng. but I also have one in Business and I am a certified ASME Welder ( run a pressure vessel and piping company).
Technical trades are curucial BUT they are beginning to suffer from the same malady as the "other stuff" and that is the "sense of entitlement" that newbies seem to have.

Anonymous ZT January 09, 2013 10:22 AM  

@A, my oldest (14 yrs) has a hard work ethic and with the help of a friend he will be working a pumpkin patch this next summer. He is finding out that work that other people his age are not willing/incapable of doing has value. If the field goes well he could stand to make $100k as his part of the cut. However even if he only make $10k he will have made more money then most college kids. Yes, there is risk but he is taking risks when it is of little consequence (All his needs are met by me) and even if it doesn't work out he already has more experience working fields and this year driving on a farm that he will be ahead of almost everyone in his age group.

There is money in displacing dirt and doing the jobs that many feel they are to educated for. In fact the HVAC guys are starting to hit income levels of entry level tech workers and they have less education to worry about paying for.

My suggestion to young people. Get a vocational job. You can be ready and working by the time you are 20. Make more money and if you really want college, go while you are working your vocational job and still graduate before your 26 with no debt and money in the bank. Plus blue collar jobs have some of the best drinking stores to share.

Anonymous VryeDenker January 09, 2013 10:29 AM  

"Ladder Logic" is also named such because the visual development environment looks as if you are constructing the rungs of a ladder. Especially when you print it out and it's around 100 pages long ;)

Anonymous ZT January 09, 2013 10:30 AM  

@Stilicho, IT systems. I'm a Linux Systems Engineer.

Current big growth Tech areas are, big data, data analytics, cloud engineering (it's a gimic word), software development, system engineers, electronic engineering, datawhare housing, storage administrators, etc.

Anonymous scoobius dubious January 09, 2013 10:34 AM  

"My question is, how did you get your children to take advantage of useful knowledge and skills?"

It may be a changing generational thing, based on class awareness divided by the wrenching changes that have made the USA basically unrecognizable from what it once was, over the past 20 years.

For instance, I grew up in the 70s in a white, blue-collar environment. My father was an electrician, machinist, skilled mechanical tradesman who made a decent but not extravagant living. I showed some aptitude as a kid for electronics and the building trades, but I also had strong academic potential, so my father rather wilfully steered me away from his own areas of expertise, and into more white-collar academic/professional-class pursuits, because he saw it as a species of "moving up" with respect to class. At the time, he wasn't wrong; but things have changed, and now everything is weird.

The white working class is in the process of being completely replaced by Latino immigrants, at the same time that the white managerial and upper-middle classes are being replaced by Asian and subcon immigrants. Who is laughing at all this, as whitey is squeezed into socio-economic oblivion? Why, Ari and Zvi of course, who engineered it.

So now Bob and Nick are being priced out at the bottom end of the labor force by Paco and Chaco, and at the top end by Pradesh and Ching Wang Fong, all courtesy of Noah Rubenstein, who sees it as a species of pest control, so that Bob and Nick can't afford to have hideous blue-eyed children who will magically transform into Dachau guards whenever the moon is full, or whatever pathologies he picked up because his parents traumatized him by making him read The Diary of Anne Frank when he was only nine years old.

So now mid-level whites are searching for those niche-market, value-added professions like high-end artisanal welding and so forth, instead of the old mainstays. Good luck. As soon as the whites identify those sectors and move into them, Noah, Ari and Zvi will find a way to flood those labor markets with immigrants, too. Because racism. Because gun control. Because socialism and Red Diaper camp. Because Leo Frank or something. Because who knows what the fuck goes on in their diseased horrific minds.

Anonymous BillB January 09, 2013 10:35 AM  

It is more saddening that what is taught in universities has suffered. During my 3 decades as a prof, we dropped expectations so much that we barely covered the real science of chemistry. Students are across the board poorly prepared for "higher education" and higher education has simply become nothing. I would place most college educations since 1980 as barely different from a HS diploma of the 50s/60s.

Why? Public schools are filled with folks who don't know the subject matter and couldn't teach it if they tried. Yes there are some good folks out there but the most are inept, useless daycare workers who are so stupid they don't know their own limitations.

And so the expectations are lowered so the children can graduate.

Thus we have a shortage of skilled workers as mentioned above and a group of "college educated" idiots who think they know something but really don't.

Anonymous BillB January 09, 2013 10:36 AM  

Ran on to this just after posting:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/01/08/are-raising-generation-deluded-narcissists/?test=latestnews&intcmp=features

Anonymous dB January 09, 2013 10:41 AM  

If so many of these "students" are taking calculus then why are they so many that don't get that college doesn't always add up? One would think in order to complete calculus successfully a good foundation in arithmetic is necessary. Maybe this is the new calculus where you just need to feel that a derivative is a good thing and integration has to do with getting along with other races.

Anonymous BillB January 09, 2013 10:42 AM  

Narcissism is an outgrowth of the mistaken concept of self-esteem used in schools. What the schools teach is vanity, being stroked by others, and feeling "good" about yourself. True self-esteem comes solely from within, knowing you have done well.

Anonymous Susan January 09, 2013 10:44 AM  

My oldest had to go to college as she wanted to be an RN. Now she makes good money and is supporting herself. My younger learned on the job, starting as a callcenter person then moving to a systems installer position. Makes pretty good money, now is a homeowner and has a steady girl.

Part of the problem as I see it, is that traditional jobs that teens could do to learn a work ethic and money for themselves are being legislated out of existance as being 'too unsafe' for teens by stupid liberal politicians.

ZT, your kid is lucky to get the chance to make that kind of money. One other occupation that takes an extreme amount of hard work is up in Alaska working for a fish processor. In one summer an older teen, 17 or so, can earn enough for not only a car, but can pay cash for any school tuition if he so chooses.

Anonymous BillB January 09, 2013 10:49 AM  

dB,

They don't really do calculus in HS. Usually they perform calculus on a calculator or a computer. It is generally not performed by hand as we did 40 yrs ago. And so the students don't really know calculus even if they can perform the functions on their calculators.

In addition, most teachers today don't have a degree in a field such as math but have an education degree with some extra courses in a particular field. Couple this with the fact that many teachers are the products of these same schools and we have the blind leading the blind.

Prior to 1975 a HS chemistry teacher earned a degree in chemistry and then took another year to meet the teacher certification requirements. With affirmative action, that stopped. We can't have high expectations and still get these "people" through. You know college is biased toward the white and the rich.

Agree on last statement!

Anonymous Josh January 09, 2013 10:57 AM  

North Dakota, South Texas. Oil and gas.

Anonymous Ike Willis January 09, 2013 10:58 AM  

"God bless America, land that we------
Call any vegetable, call it by name......."

OMG! an archaic Zappa reference!!

Awesome.

Blogger Ingemar January 09, 2013 11:00 AM  

>The problem is that we've ripped out all the shop classes and replaced them with calculus.

I think there's a "not" missing there.

Blogger Positive Dennis January 09, 2013 11:18 AM  

My son in High school along with another student actually taught the class as the Coach who taught the class did not really get it. He stayed a lesson ahead. He will finish up his doctorate in nano engineering soon. He obviously needed calculus in school. I had it in school 40 years ago, but have never used it.

Anonymous Red Comet January 09, 2013 11:28 AM  

I came to the conclusion that college was a massive scam years ago when my state school had to publish professor salaries on the web and I did some math.

Word to the wise: just follow the money anytime something is suspicious. People lie, but money doesn't.

In any case, most decent sized colleges have the following apply:

-Massively profitable sports programs that run off the backs of unpaid players
-Crappy buildings and old computers/equipment
-Professors paid less than the average wage of the professionals they educate (or rather that basically unpaid graduate assistants educate)
-Tuition that costs tens of thousands and goes up every year
-Tax breaks

So why isn't college free? Why are they hoarding up all this money they don't pay taxes on anyway? Why does Harvard have a warchest so large it would make Mark Zuckersperg blush? Why does the government bitch about oil money all the time but refuse to go after or even discuss the higher education money?

For most people here these are, of course, rhetorical questions. But they are good questions to bring up to low information types that pay all that money to send their kid to the zombie factory. Most people ultimately only care when it starts actively involving their money and toys.

Anonymous Mina January 09, 2013 11:35 AM  

VryeDenker January 09, 2013 9:40 AM:

I spent many years out of college working with the PLCs and MMIs on the shop floor (manufacturing) What a great gig. Generally, folks do not need an Elect. Engineering degree for those positions (I have one but I was not a programmer - I worked closely with a lot of them, though.)

I have several good friends still in that field who graduated with two year technical certificates from local community colleges and had some talent with machinery that have done incredibly well in the field.

I would therefore consider these type of factory floor jobs a type of vocational job like HVAC or Electrician. Certainly a bit higher on the scale but no where near requiring an Engineering degree.

Of course this is just my personal experience and things could be different in your neck of the woods.

Anonymous Mina January 09, 2013 11:39 AM  

It's called Ladder Logic because in the old days before there were PLCs the "programming" was done with REAL relays and motor starters and sensors wired in series and in parallel in complex configurations.

The "Ladder" was a visual depiction, a virtual, of the actual wiring of the physical components.

Nowadays most of that hard-wiring and physical components are replaced by the logic in the PLC program.

Anonymous Mina January 09, 2013 11:43 AM  

Yes I am almost embarrassed to admit that I was around when the first Allen-Bradley PLCs were being introduced.

And, yes I learned real "ladder logic" and watched the control panels being built in our shop for many years before we finally made the "leap" to PLCs.

Am I dating myself? LOL

Anonymous Good Will January 09, 2013 11:50 AM  

Fred writes a humorous essay on this topic this week.

http://www.fredoneverything.net

Anonymous Other Josh January 09, 2013 11:53 AM  

I wish more people did calculus! I'm an engineering manager in the aerospace industry, and right now we have a SHORTAGE of qualified engineers... even with 8% unemployment.

Engineering wages continue to climb simply because of a supply shortage.

Anonymous Mina January 09, 2013 11:55 AM  

If you want to talk about hot IT Fields, Linux is great. Storage is where it's at. Huge, gigantic.

Everything on the planet today needs disk and lots of it. If you can allocate 100GB to host from a VMAX EMC array, you can take home a $100K + paycheck.

The other field is database management, either SQL Server or Oracle. You don't need 4year degrees for these, but just be certified on the technology for which you want a job.

Many hiring companies "like" to see a 4 year degree but in my experience knowledge, certs and enthusiasm for the technology will get you in the door and onto a good job.

Can't tell you how many micro-biologists, anthropologists and psychology majors I have worked with over the years in IT. A LOT. Might as well have had a 2 year certificate AS from the local community college - probably better, as these other fields have zero relevance.

Blogger Herb Nowell January 09, 2013 12:01 PM  

@redlegben
We are discussing welding with our 16 year old. He could get the certification before heading to college where he wants to go into engineering. I think it's a great idea.

I think it will make him a better engineer.

I spent nearly a decade in the Navy as a mechanic before going to college. Something I learned in the Navy is engineers have no clue how to design machinery to be repaired or maintained. If they need a fastener to hold X pounds they go in some book and find the optimal one. That means a HP air compression has not one or two bolt head sized but 16+, each optimized for its specific usage. As a mechanic this got to be a pain in the ass. In reality picking 2-3 sized that might be overkill for some usages while being optimal for others would make repair a lot easier.

Other issues would be failure to move something an inch to allow easier access, over design, not thinking about gravity in placement of access to fluid containers and so on. I don't think these engineers were incompetent in their physicals. I just think most had rarely if every working on machinery in real world (as opposed to lab) conditions.

Your son getting a welding certification and doing a year or two of welding work before college would not only give him time to mature some (and avoid lots of issues with college) via real world living, but would give him real world experience many of his engineering peers lack.

Anonymous physphilmusic January 09, 2013 12:01 PM  

All men are created equal! So, meet your new equals!! And guess what -- they all want white girls, too!

Oh come on now, scoobius doobius, let's be honest. If white men all over the country stop getting yellow fever and taking our own women, we would have no desire nor use for your entitled, feminist cock-carousel riding wite wimmen. The first (and so far, arguably only) race to approve of and even actively seek miscegenation is the white man.

Anonymous Mr. Pea January 09, 2013 12:05 PM  

They're still there. But their names are now Juan, Fernando, Jose...

And by and large, they're nothing but a bunch of grease monkeys.

Anonymous Mina January 09, 2013 12:09 PM  

Agree with Herb Nowell: Nothing is better for an Engineering student than practical, hands on experience in the shop. It cannot be beat nor its value underestimated.

Highly recommended for anyone considering engineering. Doesn't look bad on a resume, either.

Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus January 09, 2013 12:10 PM  

OT, but it looks like it's finally dawning on Obama voters that their taxes are going up too.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/01/08/Obama-Voters-Furious-About-Tax-Hikes

Good. I hope Obama voters feel as much pain as possible, so that they'll learn from their mistakes. In a MPAI world, when reason won't make the case, maybe a cattle prod will.

Anonymous scoobius dubious January 09, 2013 12:14 PM  

"If white men all over the country stop getting yellow fever and taking our own women"

But of course you beg the question, monsieur.

What the fuck are you and "your own women" doing in our country [viz., NOT yours] in the first place?

Well of course we know the answer, it's simply impolite to articulate it.

Anonymous Anonymous January 09, 2013 12:21 PM  

"We are discussing welding with our 16 year old. He could get the certification before heading to college where he wants to go into engineering. I think it's a great idea. It provides the means to pay for the college and a family if need be. You can always find welding work on the nights and weekends. Plus, it's a skill that will always be in demand."

After building ships and commisioning power plants for the last 27 years I will tell you that if your son eventually becomes an engineer after having been on tools for a while as a welder he will have an advantage over his peers. Quite a few young engineers think their job as engineers should be to sit in the construction trailer on their laptops sending emails back and forth deciding where they will go for lunch. In addition having been on tools will give him an appreciation for and understanding of what people that have to fabricate his designs will be dealing with. It is a huge advantage in my view.

-John in Highland Park

Anonymous Mina January 09, 2013 12:28 PM  

"Quite a few young engineers think their job as engineers should be to sit in the construction trailer on their laptops sending emails back and forth deciding where they will go for lunch." - True.

Although I will say those guys usually get weeded out pretty fast, if they work at a gig that requires them to be in close proximity to the trades they are serving.

If an engineer doesn't want to be out on the floor or in the field, working with the things he's designing, learning about what they are like to work with in the real world by real people - then he is not an engineer in my book. I think in most people's book ...

Which means, generally, that the real world, hands-on is much more critical than the classroom and book learning he's also going to get. So again, this speaks volumes as to the importance of kids not running off to college right out of high school. Get some experience, maybe take a few vocational classes, and take a few courses at the local community college.

A much better plan, more efficient and productive than the one being foisted upon us by the MSM.

Anonymous physphilmusic January 09, 2013 12:28 PM  

But of course you beg the question, monsieur.

Amusing. Apparently you want yellow pussy, but you want to complain about it, too.

What the fuck are you and "your own women" doing in our country [viz., NOT yours] in the first place?

I don't know. I didn't have a choice in the matter. I just found myself born into an immigrant family in a Western country, grew up speaking English, can't identify with my own original ancestral culture.

Let's be honest here. Your father gave my father an open invitation and to come over and settle. Then you and I were born, and you don't like me. Well, tough luck. Promises are promises. The only way to evict me (who, by the way, is completely innocent) would be to shoot me, but that doesn't seem to be happening, since most of your own men seem to be more content with chasing and fucking our women rather than kicking them out.

Blogger WATYF January 09, 2013 12:46 PM  

can't identify with my own original ancestral culture.

Come now, that obviously can't be true. As we've been told many times around these parts, children of immigrants are always beholden to their ancestral culture. :Op

WATYF

Anonymous Hathaway January 09, 2013 12:47 PM  

"since most of your own men seem to be more content with chasing and fucking our women rather than kicking them out."

I think you are overestimating the value of "your" women by a significant degree.

Blogger A January 09, 2013 12:49 PM  

@ Mina

"If you want to talk about hot IT Fields, Linux is great. Storage is where it's at. Huge, gigantic.

Everything on the planet today needs disk and lots of it. If you can allocate 100GB to host from a VMAX EMC array, you can take home a $100K + paycheck."

Tell me more, where should I begin my self-education, internships, voluntary work, books, websites, knowledge required to infuse myself with such a useful skill?

Anonymous Daniel January 09, 2013 12:50 PM  

OT, yet somehow related: Man Dies Zorbing Down a Mountain

Anonymous Porky? January 09, 2013 12:50 PM  

He's got a point, Scoob. They are awfully cute.

Anonymous Edjamacator January 09, 2013 12:52 PM  

Hey, c'mon, what better place is there for frustrated writers who couldn't sell their books without being able to force people into buy them?

Anonymous scoobius dubious January 09, 2013 1:01 PM  

"Let's be honest here. Your father gave my father an open invitation and to come over and settle."

Completely dishonest. Your father pounded on the door and whined and pleaded and sued and threatened (literally! look it up!) and moaned and whinged and begged like a bitch.

Stop lying about everything, and then perhaps we can have a discussion. Now back to your precious phys and phil and whatever else, which clearly teach you nothing except how to get a leg up. But we knew that already, hence the precise reason for all the banging and moaning, if you'll recall.

Blogger redlegben January 09, 2013 1:06 PM  

Herb, JHP, and Mina, thanks for the input. I agree it will make him a better engineer. I'm a physics major and grew up on a farm, so I understand the practical applications versus theory issue. When I was ~16, I decided to build a tree stand. I had it all drawn out on paper perfectly. The problem was the tree I was trying to build it around. After I had been gone an hour, my dad showed up. He loved sophomore English so much, he took it three times. Not a brainiac. I had one board up after an hour. He took the hammer from me and had the whole thing up in fifteen minutes. That stand stood for over twenty years.

Anonymous Mina January 09, 2013 1:14 PM  

A January 09, 2013 12:49 PM:

There are many ways one could go about educating themselves on this topic. First check with the local community college for either continuing education or regular curriculum SAN or Storage classes. Take one, or two or a series if they are offered.

Lots of books written on the topic. Start with one that's generally about SAN (the technology), not a specific vendor. And yes you could very easily self-study. It would be great if your community college classes were offering hands-on or lab time - you can use that lab time with the course learning and the self-study to work through example exercises.

If not, many vendors offer "simulation" software that you can install on your home PC to practice allocating disk and destroying disk, creating aliases, etc. so you can still get a hands on even without access to an actual array.

Once you had a minimum competency, someone could very easily apply for an internship or entry-level job on a large team where there were significant opportunities for mentoring. There you get essentially an "apprentice" type education in the real world.

Many times having a basic knowledge of the environment and a ton of enthusiasm as well as a willingness to do the grunt work no one else wants in exchange for the gig and the mentoring will get you the job.

This is in fact how many people get their start into these technical jobs, even if they had 4yr degrees in irrelevant fields like psychology or micro-biology. The path is the same whether you want to program PLCs, MMIs in manufacturing or do Storage/Database management in IT.


Anonymous Mina January 09, 2013 1:21 PM  

Mina January 09, 2013 1:14 PM:

To add onto my post, I forgot the very valuable certification course work in your chosen technology/vendor and getting the certs themselves. After gaining your practical skills and understanding and hopefully getting your hands on a variety of vendors versions of your chosen technology it's an excellent idea to get your certifications.

Once certifications are won, the need to show a 4 yr degree to a hiring company becomes more of a "nice to have" than a "have to have" for the big, highly paid jobs in IT.

Anonymous bw January 09, 2013 1:22 PM  

"Dramatic changes in the way we will raise our children in the year 2000 are indicated, particularly in terms of schooling...We will need to recognize that the so-called "basic skills" which currently represent nearly the total effort in elementary schools, will be taught in one quarter of the present school day....when this happens - and it is near - the teacher can rise to his true calling. More than a dispenser of information, the teacher will be a conveyor of values, a philosopher....we will be agents of change."
NEA president Catherine Barrett, 1973

(* note the proper grammar still in use - "his true calling" - shem needed to get with the program)

Blogger A January 09, 2013 1:37 PM  

Thank you for your response Mina, I will definitely work towards this goal. I graduated with an education degree (lol no jobs!) before I realized everything that is talked about here on Vox about teachers, schools, etc. I want to do something productive and positive for society that will also pay my bills, and I realize that it is never too late, especially if your initial career hasn't even started (and teachers have told me that I will have to volunteer at schools and network with principals just to get a substitute teacher position once in awhile. So, if it's going to take me 5-10 years to be a teacher anyway, why not just change my career before I even start?).

Blogger A January 09, 2013 1:43 PM  

Also, a follow up question; what, in your opinion, would be good base knowledge to have before sinking deep into SAN, if any is required. Anything that could be brushed up on say, the Khan Academy, like specific forms of math, logic, and so forth?

Anonymous Mina January 09, 2013 1:44 PM  

A January 09, 2013 1:37 PM: It works. I have a bunch of people I have given this same advice to over the years and they all got where they were going.

Allocate your "work day" to your "new job" learning your new career and you will succeed. Go get 'em!! Lots of people have done it before you, and will do it after you. No reason for you to be left behind. :-)

Since this is something you're really interested in pursuing for yourself you'd really help yourself out by doing some networking and find someone in the field you want to get into who would be willing to kind of guide you along and then point you in the right direction when its time to find your internship/entry level job. Having a real person you can pick up the phone and call or send a quick email to is super helpful. Someone local who knows the jobs/needs/resources in your area.

Good luck!!

Anonymous Mina January 09, 2013 1:46 PM  

To answer your 2nd question: SAN is just disk, it's pretty simple. If you understand computers and how they work with disk you are 1/2 way there. If not get yourself a junker PC and dis-assemble and assemble it. If you can find a cheap "array controller" online and a bunch of disks to hook to it, even better.

Learn how to work with the disk. Learn what disk is, its science and functionality. That will smooth the road to SAN for you very much.

Blogger A January 09, 2013 1:52 PM  

Really appreciate the advice and information. I will take this information and apply it to my life immediately, I know it takes time, hard work, and lots of practice to get to where you're going, but to become marketable in a knowledge/skill that is valuable and not be a part of the unseen masses of unemployable junk degree graduates is a like breaking the surface of the ocean for some fresh air.

Anonymous DonReynolds January 09, 2013 1:56 PM  

I have always drawn a distinction between education and training. Education is not directly associated with a job skill, whereas training is preparation for a vocation or occupation.

I have taught at several Christian colleges where the fearful spectre in the room was always "knowledge for knowledge sake". (Somehow this is a bad thing for some people there, since a Christian education is supposedly ONLY for Christian service. Of course, I disagree and did at the time.)

I do not know why anyone should ONLY be taught knowledge that only rarely helps them to make more money. At the same time, I know of no reason why people should ONLY be taught how to make a living. Why do we have to choose? Why would they be mutually exclusive?

The classical educators say they do not teach you how to do work, they teach you how to think clearly. (Somehow, our electricians, plumbers and computer programmers pick that up through OJT.) But what seems a more likely hazard these days, are those people with perfectly good technical skills for doing their work, but have none of the positive personality traits, ethics, aesthetics, or morality (there, I said it) that once was provided by a Christian upbringing and encouraged in society.

I will skip my usual sermon in favor of a short note on the way children are raised, which is much like potty training dogs. When they do something good, they are rewarded and when they do something bad, they are punished. Unfortunately, this is very poor preparation for adulthood. As adults, the choices are often reversed, i.e. do the right thing and be willing to face the consequences OR do the wrong thing and make it easy on yourself. In the absence of morality, these children will carry their early training forward.....if I get rewarded, it must be the right thing to do....if I get punished, it must be the wrong thing to do. AND THAT, boys and girls, is how we get into the present circumstances of pleasure and profit seeking and the avoidance of ethical and moral obstacles. Courage is for fools and idiots, the clever ones never get in those situations.

(The Republicans and Libertarians I have known have been able to justify any activity if it is profitable. "If you can make money doing it, then it cannot be wrong." The Democrats I have known believe "it must be wrong if you can profit by it." I have not decided yet which is worse.)

Blogger tz January 09, 2013 2:09 PM  

There are vocational schools, and some aren't merely student loan rip-offs, but some are community colleges, and the corollary to going to college is going to the most vapid party school with the grade-A credential.

If you look at the maker movement, you see all kinds of skills, education. hackaday, adafruit.com (from sewing - circuits!) to welding, and all the resources on the internet.

Sex-ed is not about Heather has two mommies, that is social studies. Sex-ed is probably the only practical, hands-on (pun intended) thing taught in public schools.

Illiteracy, innumeracy, and other forms of ignorance are easily and simply corrected. Unlearning deeply drilled in errors is much harder. If a child was not in school from the age of 7 to 12, by 15 he could pass most high school graduates if he was merely tutored properly. The 12 year old getting above a 3.5 in government school is nearly ruined for life.

A properly taught homeschooled pupil will know to "maintain custody of the eyes" so won't need a net-nanny and be as or more offended at a wrong link than his parents (this morning on the radio, a grandchild was working on a rocket and mistakenly googled "thrusters"). The rest is give him a budget for supplies and turn him loose on the MIT, Stanford, Instructables, or any of the other dozen sites. Just make sure he or she doesn't neglect things like spelling and grammar (with the checkers turned off).

The government still says you must pay to be in a class-room with someone who probably isn't as smart as you, and buy a monopoly priced textbook that will remain basically unused, and regurgitate the proper words on the exam whether you have any understanding or not to get a piece of paper.

In the Wizard of Oz, the only evidence I can think of that the Scarecrow lacked a brain was his accepting a "degree" in reward for his personal Farenheit encounter.

There is a lot of evidence that many with degrees have no evidence of having a brain. They walk, they talk, but seem to be in a persistent vegetative state - ambulatory couch potatoes.

Anonymous scoobius dubious January 09, 2013 2:19 PM  

"The classical educators say they do not teach you how to do work, they teach you how to think clearly. (Somehow, our electricians, plumbers and computer programmers pick that up through OJT.)"

Not so. Or at least, not necessarily so. (See what I did there?) It depends a lot on what you mean by "thinking clearly," and about what. Lookit, I am a dyed-in-the-wool Mandarin, stuck-up as all get-out about the few things which I can claim to be stuck-up about, but not about any other things(!), who was explicitly trained to become a Mandarin, but who is directly descended from the ranks of plumbers and electricians. The world is funny. I can tell you from long experience that Quince & Co. can think quite clearly about certain things; but about other things, not at all. In fact they can be pretty embarrassing about plenty of things. Not that they wouldn't embarrass me about other stuff as well, in the course of a day's work. Such is the division of labor, and such is life. It's good to recognize it, whether we agree or not.

Which is a long way of saying that I dislike reverse-snobbery as much as I dislike snobbery. Like many a man I have my tricks for sounding out a fool in the course of a conversation, learnt at long length and with great pains, and I don't mind making use of 'em. Eh, whatever then, [burp], pass the port.

Anonymous A Visitor January 09, 2013 2:53 PM  

"Maybe this is the new calculus where you just need to feel that a derivative is a good thing and integration has to do with getting along with other races."

I LOLed at that. Even though I switched majors, I did finish my engineering core (save physics). I still remember the derivative of sin is cos and tan is sec.

I think the "you have to get a college degree for a good job" is a result of three reasons: 1) As other comments have noted, libs and their bs equality; 2) our "free trade agreements" with other countries that move production out of the U.S.; 3) the trades not being explained or shown to be a real possibility.

I maybe have a bit of skewed perspective since I come from an upper class family and going to college was pretty much expected. I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I enjoyed earning my degrees (and my recently acquired graduate degree) and wouldn't change it for the world. Now, if I could just get a job...

Anonymous A Visitor January 09, 2013 2:54 PM  

I also think it's absurd that most teachers in primary and high school do not have degrees in their fields, just a "primary (or secondary) education" degree, whatever that is.

Blogger ajw308 January 09, 2013 3:02 PM  

Any engineer that doesn't have hands on experience in his field will have trouble if his manager has ever turned a wrench. I'm a ME, but tinker with electronics because electronic projects can constructed for cheap. You can breadboard up a all sorts of things for $10-$40 over a weekend where a mechanical project is orders of magnitude more expensive and requires machining, parts, etc. Though I'm looking to purchase a 3-D printer in the next 2-3 months and that may change what I work on.

One of the things I know the 3-D printer will end up doing is printing lots of little mechs and armour my 10 year old son will be creating in SolidWorks. It's so easy to teach kids when they think they are having fun.

But back to the EE stuff, professionally I can talk to EE's and ask intelligent questions. You wouldn't believe how they appreciate that. Give them room for wiring on a machine and ask them where they'd like to put the electrical enclosures and how big they'd like them to be. Give them buy-in on a machine rather than throw a crisis in their lap. Projects go faster, are fun to work on and there's a potential for new friends.

Welding though, that's a manly skill where you get to be an artist. We all see the choppers on the reality bike shows, OC seems to buy most the parts out of a catalog and are quite proud if they make a bracket to hold something together. Jesse James'll bend tube and weld things from the ground up. That's skill and creativity and his success shows how far you can go.

Here in Anchorage is a huge aviation culture. A good welder can make over $50/hr. I've seen huge Somoan's, bigger than me, welding tiny little 0.049" thick tabs onto aircraft tube steel. It's thin walled stuff that I'd melt into a puddle if I tried. He was only able to work part-time, but his employer had to show him off to me. He was proud to have him working for him.

Anonymous Tallen January 09, 2013 4:09 PM  

The Republicans and Libertarians I have known have been able to justify any activity if it is profitable. "If you can make money doing it, then it cannot be wrong."

Did you ask them about abortion?

The Democrats I have known believe "it must be wrong if you can profit by it."

Did you ask them about Hollywood?

I'm cherrypicking examples here but you get my drift.

Anonymous Tallen January 09, 2013 4:14 PM  

Though I'm looking to purchase a 3-D printer in the next 2-3 months and that may change what I work on.

One of the things I know the 3-D printer will end up doing is printing lots of little mechs and armour my 10 year old son will be creating in SolidWorks.


I did some of that in college; sure wish I'd had the tools to do it beforehand. That's one lucky kid!

Anonymous The One January 09, 2013 4:30 PM  

Kind of on topic. To all the ILK in the South, was thinking of leaving finance/NE since it is filled with thieves. Heard IT and oil is booming in the South. Any recommendations on how to start in one of these fields? Also what is the pay range for entry level, I do have a wife who wants kids eventually.

Anonymous The One January 09, 2013 4:35 PM  

@A, I reccomend cbtnuggets.com. I have been taking some courses over there looking to swtich careers.

Anonymous The One January 09, 2013 4:42 PM  

Thanks Mina, even though your posts weren't directed at me, they helped greatly

Anonymous WaterBoy January 09, 2013 4:45 PM  

ajw308: "Though I'm looking to purchase a 3-D printer in the next 2-3 months and that may change what I work on."

It's useful for prototyping and for making custom replacement parts that just aren't available even on the Internet. Also will be useful for making your own gun parts, should it ever come down to that.

Blogger James Dixon January 09, 2013 5:02 PM  

> Heard IT and oil is booming in the South.

If you can get a commercial drivers license you can almost guarantee a job in oil and gas. Now, how much it will pay may vary widely.

Anonymous FUBAR Nation Ben January 09, 2013 5:06 PM  

Mina, thanks for the information. As a recent graduate student in accounting only able to find part time and temp work, I will definitely look into what you are saying.

Would a master's degree in accounting be good enough for IT firms?

Anonymous WaterBoy January 09, 2013 5:13 PM  

James Dixon: "If you can get a commercial drivers license you can almost guarantee a job in oil and gas."

Definitely. You can't hardly drive through any town in Oklahoma without seeing a "Drivers Wanted" sign in some window. Just be careful which company you sign on with....

Anonymous The One January 09, 2013 5:13 PM  

I found this for anyone interested.

http://www.npr.org/2012/05/09/152366886/booming-oil-industry-struggles-to-fill-jobs

"Straight out of high school, no skills, we pay you $55,000 a year with full benefits, 401k, health care coverage, et cetera. And we're still struggling to attract workers here at Hercules."

Doesn't mention the postion, might be drilling

Anonymous The One January 09, 2013 5:14 PM  

@James Dixon

Thanks

Anonymous The One January 09, 2013 5:23 PM  

@Fubar Nation Ben

I had an interview with DELL monday, didn't get it. It was for SAN.

I was asked about subnetting, iscci intiator, raid, personal questions. Even though I knew the answers, the fact that I didn't have my own array, swtich and hadn't acctually used the intiator made me not get the job.

I wasn't even aware there were simulators till MIna mentioned it in this thread, I would look into those before applying anywhere.

Blogger A January 09, 2013 5:42 PM  

@ The One

Thanks for the website plug, bookmarked it. Sorry to hear about your interview experience, but enlightening none the less. You fell, but get back up, always get back up.

Anonymous Mina January 09, 2013 5:49 PM  

If you're a newbie looking to get into a field can't stress enough looking for Internship / Entry Level and make clear you are willing to mop the floors if necessary in exchange for mentoring and real-world experience (i.e. actually getting to touch and interact with stuff - production is optimum but even DEV/QA is good)

My company hired no less than 4 entry level SAN guys in the past year. One of them used to be an 18-wheel OTR driver.

You gotta find the right situation and be willing to take the dregs (pay your dues!!) to get in the door.

HTH

Anonymous Mina January 09, 2013 5:50 PM  

It also never hurts to get certified if you have time and $$ to do it. Never hurts!! even if you have zero real-world experience.

Blogger Justthisguy January 09, 2013 6:33 PM  

I think some knowledge of the calculus would be helpful to a sharp machinist. Trig would be good, too.

Blogger Justthisguy January 09, 2013 6:35 PM  

P.s. There is a lathe accessory called a sine bar, used for cutting tapers. Yes, machinists need to know some trig.

Anonymous Athor Pel January 09, 2013 6:45 PM  

If you want to work in oil and gas there a lot of jobs to be had. Remember that oil companies have the same core business departments in them, accounting, finance, purchasing, sales, IT ... so if you can do one of those things you can work for an oil company just as easily as some other consumer product company.

As far as those jobs related to the newly opened oil and gas fields then think about what goes into getting that stuff out of the ground and transported to a refinery.

All the infrastructure has to be designed. That takes engineers, surveyors and draftsmen/designers. The easiest to get into is drafting. Learn some CAD software. Get an entry level position and learn about that field. It's how I got into the petroleum business. I started as a map designer.




I've done some looking at the North Dakota oil field jobs. The problem is housing, not the jobs. There are plenty of jobs. There is a definite shortage of housing. At any price. The long commutes and high housing costs imposed because of the housing shortage eats up all your pay. One piece of advice here, if you want a job in North Dakota make them provide housing. Otherwise it won't be worth the hassle.

You might be thinking that a travel trailer would obviate the need for a house or apartment. Sounds good. One problem. All the hookups are already taken.




Some people have mentioned online education resources. I got told about one the other day by a friend of mine that is currently using it and he likes it a lot.

http://www.udacity.com/

Blogger Justthisguy January 09, 2013 7:01 PM  

The woman I refer to as my semi-sweety makes a very good living as a draftsman. She was trained the old-fashioned way, with pencil and paper. She is amazed from time to time, to see some kid who only knows AutoCad or suchlike, produce a drawing which shows something physically impossible.

Anonymous Tad January 09, 2013 7:23 PM  

I can say this much, my career success can be directly tied to my time at universities. There is no question of this. The training I got, the contacts I made and the strong introduction to the fundamentals and details of my field were critical to the the success I enjoy.

I can't imagine how I would enjoy the life I currently do without a university education.

Anonymous The One January 09, 2013 7:30 PM  

Here we go, no matter what Vox says Tad has to come in and disagree with it. For once in your life can't you exhibit some self control and not comment.

Thanks to all the ILK for the great advice.

Anonymous Mina January 09, 2013 8:56 PM  

WTF Tad ... this guy is the most studiously obtuse I have EVER seen.

does anyone have any idea what his agenda is?

Anonymous Josh January 09, 2013 9:35 PM  

Tad,

What field are you in?

Anonymous Anonymous January 09, 2013 9:56 PM  

Tad, What field are you in?

Internet troll.

Anymore questions?

A smart ass.

Anonymous Maiken430 January 09, 2013 9:56 PM  

Interesting diavlog from people in the college industry recognizing the issue...

http://bloggingheads.tv/videos/14211

Anonymous catahoula January 09, 2013 10:40 PM  

Our youngest son was homeschooled, no ged, no college, studied and took the A+ test, passed it the first time, is doing IT/networking something or other for a big hospital complex in Maryland, married, baby, and turned 21 on Christmas eve.

( Y'all leave that sentence alone...I'm tired and it's late)

Anonymous zen0 January 09, 2013 11:01 PM  

Mina January 09, 2013 8:56 PM

WTF Tad ... this guy is the most studiously obtuse I have EVER seen.

does anyone have any idea what his agenda is?


Very astute. There is a commenter at Zero Hedge called Million Dollar Bonus that has the same schtick. Its a contrarian parody.

Can be entertaining, but still a form of trolling.

Anonymous Shutup, Tad January 09, 2013 11:03 PM  

Parody or not, it has become irrevocably lame.

Ergo, shutup, Tad.

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother January 09, 2013 11:15 PM  

I am about to start school to get my first educational degree at the age of 36, after I landed the 180k/year job.

Anonymous whatever January 09, 2013 11:50 PM  

Anonymous said:

After building ships and commisioning power plants for the last 27 years I will tell you that if your son eventually becomes an engineer after having been on tools for a while as a welder he will have an advantage over his peers. Quite a few young engineers think their job as engineers should be to sit in the construction trailer on their laptops sending emails back and forth deciding where they will go for lunch.


I've never encountered this ever. What is this animal rambling about?

Mina said:

If you're a newbie looking to get into a field can't stress enough looking for Internship / Entry Level and make clear you are willing to mop the floors if necessary in exchange for mentoring and real-world experience (i.e. actually getting to touch and interact with stuff - production is optimum but even DEV/QA is good)

My company hired no less than 4 entry level SAN guys in the past year. One of them used to be an 18-wheel OTR driver.

You gotta find the right situation and be willing to take the dregs (pay your dues!!) to get in the door.


OH. He means young engineers don't like working without pay(internship) and be wiling to "mop the floors"... 60 hour work week and having to be a janitor to.

Mina is what I like to call a modern lying whore. Whenever I hear "pay you dues" I have to giggle. It's like when some whore says "Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?"

So, Mina, if I "pay my dues" does that mean I'm going to get that better job? No? More of an implied sorta maybe not, you know like modern marriage. But the IMPLICATION is there. THE IMPLICATION. And that dream is certainly worth working 60 hour weeks as a janitor without pay. It's funny that whores like you don't even need to lie outright, cause the animals no better than to ask. Cause they already know the answer. You are lying.

Some lunatic:

We are discussing welding with our 16 year old. He could get the certification before heading to college where he wants to go into engineering. I think it's a great idea. It provides the means to pay for the college and a family if need be. You can always find welding work on the nights and weekends. Plus, it's a skill that will always be in demand.


Wow, he can work part-time as a welder in the same town his college is located in! Pulling 16 credit hours in a real degree and welding to boot! How he will accomplish this without physical breakdown I don't know, but heh, who the f' cares about reality! Not you, kiddo, not you. No doubt those 20 hours a week welding will fully pay for his college and living expenses. I did not know that welding paid fifty dollars an hour, but I guess it does.

Blogger redlegben January 10, 2013 12:11 AM  

Well I worked 30-40 hours per week while getting my physics degree, so I'm pretty sure he could work 20. I'm not sure you need to make $100k/yr($50/hr) in order to pay for college. And yes welding does pay pretty well. So does waiting tables and a variety of other ways to pay for college and not go into debt. You apparently have quite the fragile breakdown point.

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother January 10, 2013 12:11 AM  

Who let the dogs out?

Anonymous The other skeptic January 10, 2013 12:18 AM  

Also try Coursera although there are some crap courses in there.

At the end of the day it depends on what you want to do. If your thing is writing software, then get involved with an open source project, contribute some small change that you can point potential employers to.

One potential employer made me write a bunch of code that I had never written before but it is all doable. (I didn't take the job, BTW.)

Anonymous Mina January 10, 2013 12:57 AM  

not really sure about the little picture you're sketching out but the big picture I'm looking at shows that if someone wants a good paying IT job and they have very little experience coupled with no 4 year degree, they'll have to start with a crappy paying IT job doing shit work for a few years first.

I don't usually waste my time with little thinkers so I'll just leave it there. everyone else already "gets" it.

Anonymous VryeDenker January 10, 2013 2:07 AM  

My first IT job paid Less than $1000/month. It would probably have been more if I lived in the US, but to give you an idea: it was about the same as a sales assistant makes at a store in a mall. After gaining some experience and proving myself, I've managed to multiply that figure quite considerably in the span of five years. So much so that I can afford a nice car, I paid for our wedding and we're renting a nice apartment in a decent neighborhood. And this in a country where it is against the law to hire whitey if you haven't offered the job to 9 other shades of brother. It really is a good field at the moment. And I believe that it will be so for some years to come.

Blogger Hamilton January 10, 2013 8:35 AM  

I've been well educated. Probably have more professional designations after my name than your average MD or plastic surgeon. That's what people told me I need to make money and blah blah blah. If I could do it all over again I would have just been a mechanic.

People in my office are shocked when I tell them that their kids who want to skip college are probably making a great decision. Well, they used to be. Now people in my office think I am batshit crazy because I tell them all kinds of counter-cultural things.

Anonymous E. PERLINE January 10, 2013 9:28 AM  

I guess I'm a Libertarian. I don't like the licensing of trades. The test for a trade isn't usually given for skills. It's given for knowledge of the rules and laws. But such an exam costs a substantial fee. If you pass the test, you must pay a substantial fee yearly. You will also be given instructions about how much insurance you must carry. if you take a state test a city county, or federal government may go after you too.

I don't like licensing of trades because it gives the government someone to pass the responsibity to without getting involved itself. And if it witholds an honest citizen's right to make a living, it is going against the constitution.






Anonymous whatever January 10, 2013 9:44 AM  

Mina is a wily slut:

not really sure about the little picture you're sketching out but the big picture I'm looking at shows that if someone wants a good paying IT job and they have very little experience coupled with no 4 year degree, they'll have to start with a crappy paying IT job doing shit work for a few years first.

I don't usually waste my time with little thinkers so I'll just leave it there. everyone else already "gets" it.


I get that unemployment is high so you feel you can demand absurd things and get them. You like stealing. You can steal. So you will. You said "for mentoring and real world experience" in your last drivel. So yes, you did mean college graduates. You can try to back out now, but that's just the typical wily moving of goalposts I've come to expect. "Pay your dues" is a just a code-word for "we like stealing". And like I said, everything you "promise" comes with a strict "no guarantees" and with the solemn promise "we will do whatever the hell we want, no money back!". And yes, everyone gets that. You wouldn't even dare demand it if unemployment weren't so high or 90% of people would tell you to f' off.

VryeDenker said:

My first IT job paid Less than $1000/month. It would probably have been more if I lived in the US, but to give you an idea: it was about the same as a sales assistant makes at a store in a mall. After gaining some experience and proving myself, I've managed to multiply that figure quite considerably in the span of five years. So much so that I can afford a nice car, I paid for our wedding and we're renting a nice apartment in a decent neighborhood.


Well, if you don't live in American, you are certainly qualified to comment on what goes on in America.

Blogger JaimeInTexas January 10, 2013 10:19 AM  

Mina: Your comments relating to PLC's, ladder logic and Allen Bradleys brings up memories. I moved to Houston, in 1985, where I found a job with a small company, writing communication drivers for (ahem) 8086 PCs, to communicate with PLCs. I actually developed an Allen Bradly programmer emulator (I think that my employer called it Simwire or softwires). The emulator, if fed live data, would turn the PC into a PLC, if connected to relevant hardware. The first of its kind.

Anonymous Mina January 10, 2013 11:35 AM  

JaimeInTexas January 10, 2013 10:19 AM:

Wiring communication drivers for 8086s huh? let me guess ... in assembler, right?

Your idea for a software-based PLC took off big time in about 1993 (I think.) Several companies that I was very close to developed the s/w and marketed it heavily. The problem as I remember it was that the s/w was never able to keep up with the I/O frequencies or response times as compared to a "hard" PLC and I don't think it ever made any real inroads to the manufacturing world.

This is not to say it hasn't found other applications though.

You were really ahead of your time, propeller-head :-)

Anonymous Mina January 10, 2013 11:35 AM  

wiring .. should be "writing" (sorry)

Anonymous Mina January 10, 2013 11:51 AM  

stg58/Animal Mother January 09, 2013 11:15 PM: I'd love to know what field you're in ... you did say engineering or IT right? I sort of lost track yesterday.

Blogger JaimeInTexas January 10, 2013 2:29 PM  

The year was mid to late 1986. The programming language was "C" Yep, I guess we were ahead of our times. If I remember correctly, we talked about it being used for controlling things at home. It was mostly marketed as a way to show relevant government agency that a contingencies were properly handled. Collected the state of the system, introduce whatever failure scenario and then single step through the logic to see the behavior. Looking back, we should have gone to education institutions and companies to teach logic programming. Oh, well.

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