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Thursday, January 17, 2013

No, don' go

I find it interesting that despite all of the bluster from the pro-EU forces in Britain, which insist that Britain desperately needs the EU and would be little more than the Falkland Islands floating in the Atlantic without it, it is the EU that is betraying precisely who needs whom:
Britain could become a ‘second-class’ member of the European Union under plans floated in Brussels yesterday.  An influential group of European federalists, who want to see Brussels given even greater powers, is suggesting the UK is relegated to ‘associate member’ status.  The move would see Britain remain part of the single market but freed from much of the social legislation and bureaucracy associated with full EU membership....

The Union of European Federalists is expected to set out its plan for Britain in a draft EU treaty in the spring.  British Lib Dem MEP Andrew Duff, who heads the group, said the proposal would create a new category of membership to ensure Britain did not leave altogether. 
It's not about trade, in the end, it's about control.  The EU no more steals the sovereignty of its member states for economic purposes than Nazi Germany invaded Belgium for the chocolate.  It is much the same with the United States.  For all that the left-liberal parasites claim, on the basis of tax revenues, that the big government states are producing a disproportionate share of the national wealth and they would be better off without the small government states, they will quite literally kill large quantities of people to prevent them from leaving the Union.

Whereas the average small government individual would quite happily pay to see New York, California, and the New England states exit it.  This, and not the pseudo-statistical bluster, makes it entirely clear who is parasitic on whom.

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41 Comments:

Anonymous Move Zig January 17, 2013 7:19 AM  

You could have included some mid-west states like Illinois and Wisconsin. Although if it weren't for those state's big cities, they would be red. Southern Ill would love to secede from Chicago.

Anonymous RedJack January 17, 2013 7:32 AM  

Control is rarely given up with out a fight.

One liberal friend keeps telling me that the only reason Iowa exists is because New York pays taxes.

When I ask about where his food comes from, he just gave me a blank stare.

Anonymous DrTorch January 17, 2013 7:44 AM  

So Switzerland was saved b/c the Belgians had better chocolate.

I learn something new here every day.

Blogger mmaier2112 January 17, 2013 8:00 AM  

Except wasn't it shown that when you account for big government (esp. the military) the Southern states become massively tax-producing rather than tax consuming?

Anonymous Godfrey January 17, 2013 8:14 AM  

There is nothing "liberal" about them. They're corrupt power-worshiping totalitarians.

Anonymous Godfrey January 17, 2013 8:20 AM  

@RedJack January 17, 2013 7:32 AM

One liberal friend keeps telling me that the only reason Iowa exists is because New York pays taxes.

When I ask about where his food comes from, he just gave me a blank stare.


Doesn't food come from the Almighty Government? According to Statist dogma didn't the Almighty Government create the heavens and the earth? And didn't it create the sun, the moon and then place all the stars in the night sky? Isn't IT the source of everything?

Blogger LP 999/Eliza January 17, 2013 8:27 AM  

Cali, Washington, NJ and NY should all work to become their own countries.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza January 17, 2013 8:30 AM  

After all the banker fallouts and economic fiascoes Britain endured their attitude of restraint isn't working for them. Then again they have a Nigel Farage other countries don't.

Anonymous MendoScot January 17, 2013 8:34 AM  

So Switzerland was saved b/c the Belgians had better chocolate.

My money is on the Belgian beer.

And the Swiss guns and Alps, but that's just being picky.

Anonymous Bohm January 17, 2013 8:40 AM  

VD is quick to draw comparisons between The EU and the US, (with Hitler inevitably thrown in) but the two aren't that comparable.

For example, Britain is playing political hardball with euroscepticism, with potentially profound consequences, whereas in the US, all this secessionist talk truly is just bluster.

In Britain, the Euro game is being played on many fronts; between Whitehall and Brussels, between opposing factions within the Conservative party, and even between Westminster and Holyrood. All these fronts are impacting on each other and it's impossible to foresee how everything will end up. ( although the effects on Britain of 'associate status' are more predictable)

In the US meanwhile, you have a lot of whiney right wingers convinced they're living under a tyrannical dictatorship (clearly having no clue how living with a real dictatorship would feel like) without thinking through what secession would really mean.

Obviously, there is historical precedent for a whole bunch of US states seceding and a lot of bluster and umbrage remains about how that turned out. To imagine the same thing happening now seems to me delusional- but I don't suppose many do, even among Conservatives.

However, some folks clearly wish their own state seceded, usually for quite quixotic reasons, ie. the escape the effects of 'socialism' and propel them toward a right wing paradise. The big one is Texas - how would these Texican patriots really feel living in the new Kazakstan. It's an interesting thought experiment.

Blogger Tiny Tim January 17, 2013 8:47 AM  

They are blood thirsty parasites who worship themselves.

They ride upon a pale horse and if you think they are anyone other than that you are crazy.


They will destroy everything you hold dear.

Like a jaguar, they perch above you in the tree, muscles coiled and ready to release, yellow eyes fixed on the back of your head......

"And hell followed with him............."

Blogger James Dixon January 17, 2013 8:49 AM  

> whereas in the US, all this secessionist talk truly is just bluster.

From http://southernnationalist.com/blog/2013/01/14/rush-limbaugh-us-left-wants-to-finish-off-the-south/

"Polls reveal that a quarter of Republicans across the United States want to secede while half of Georgia Republicans want independence from the US Federal Government."

But that's all just bluster by a very small minority of people, of course.

Anonymous dh January 17, 2013 9:00 AM  

But that's all just bluster by a very small minority of people, of course.
Of course. It's all bluster, or else the shooting would have already started.

If everyone is telling the truth about what they believe and are not willing to compromise about, then the shooting would have started a long time ago. But it hasn't...

Anonymous Azimus January 17, 2013 9:03 AM  

Move Zig January 17, 2013 7:19 AM
You could have included some mid-west states like Illinois and Wisconsin.


Wha? I guess haters gotta hate... did the Badgers screw up your NCAA bracket or sumpin?

Anyway, in WI the problem has a more specific name. We call it "The People's Republic of Dane County."

Blogger Tiny Tim January 17, 2013 9:09 AM  

God Bless Rick Perry.

Many an imperfect man has risen up in times of crisis and come to the defense of mankind.....

God Bless Texas. To hell with the EU.......

Blogger Joshua_D January 17, 2013 9:10 AM  

dh January 17, 2013 9:00 AM

"But that's all just bluster by a very small minority of people, of course."

Of course. It's all bluster, or else the shooting would have already started.

If everyone is telling the truth about what they believe and are not willing to compromise about, then the shooting would have started a long time ago. But it hasn't...


What are you talking about? Shots were already fired in 1775, and 1861. We're way over due for round three.

Anonymous mjb January 17, 2013 9:14 AM  

I read this article yesterday. Basically, it is possible the divide could be more complex than a simple red state/blue state divide, because of states like NH and VT which have a deeper respect for the 2nd then the blue states, and even many of the red states.

Anonymous Move Zig January 17, 2013 9:18 AM  

Azimus, is Dane County include Madison...or is it Milwaukee or both?? I know that is a very left leaning area.

Anonymous dh January 17, 2013 9:29 AM  

What are you talking about? Shots were already fired in 1775, and 1861. We're way over due for round three.
We are only overdue of the armchair rebels aren't cowardly fools who have to much time on thier hands.

Blogger James Dixon January 17, 2013 9:33 AM  

> If everyone is telling the truth about what they believe and are not willing to compromise about, then the shooting would have started a long time ago. But it hasn't...

Violence is the last resort of reasonable men, not the first.

Anonymous VD January 17, 2013 9:37 AM  

We are only overdue of the armchair rebels aren't cowardly fools who have to much time on thier hands.

Keep telling yourself that, sport. And have you forgotten Timothy McVeigh or are you a conspiracy theorist?

Violence is the last resort of reasonable men, not the first.

Precisely.

Anonymous Daniel January 17, 2013 9:48 AM  

We are only overdue of the armchair rebels aren't cowardly fools who have to much time on thier hands.

The shooting has started, dh. Most people today do not comprehend at all what was going on in Nebraska and Kansas in the 1850s, years before the war started. Don't ever forget that the national build-up to war was seventeen years in the making, and still no one (or very few) had any idea that it would end like it did, even though we can see, in retrospect, the writing on the wall.

Employment, economy, politics, the constitution, red state/blue state, violence, voting, citizenship. Those were the issues then. Those are the issues now.

Screaming "doughface! doughface! doughface!" did nothing then, and will do nothing now, to alter the course of history or reality.

The guys you are convinced won't ever shoot, will, indeed, shoot.

Blogger The Anti-Gnostic January 17, 2013 9:48 AM  

The USG still has a store of credibility and a lot of people still have too much to lose. The US won't break up until the system loses its credibility and people start losing stuff. We're not at that point yet, but we're sprinting hard and rounding second. You can't print money to buy your own debt indefinitely. You can't add 1.5M immigrants a year indefinitely. You can't not reproduce and push the boundaries of deviance indefinitely. I don't know how much gas is left in the tank but what we're doing is not sustainable.

The game-changer is the huge amounts of leveraged finance that are supporting entire sectors of the economy. Too many people are employed in jobs that wouldn't exist without the Fed as buyer of last resort. It wouldn't take much to start events accelerating.

Anonymous GWst January 17, 2013 9:55 AM  

It's great fun going to a lefty site where secession is being discussed, and seeing all of the posts dissing the red states/citizens and claiming that the blues would be better off without them. When one enters the fray and calls their bluff by agreeing with them that secession should indeed happen, even getting down to specifics over *how* it could happen, peacefully, their mask comes off, and the raging begins.

They are deeply, deeply afraid that this could actually happen, although they'd *never* admit their fear. They are enraged by it, and by us, our very existence.

Anonymous Red Comet January 17, 2013 10:30 AM  

The libs at the common level have as much independent thought as any given neocon at the same level.

They are programmed to think "RED STATES BAD" and "SECESSION BAD," which is why when you bring up secession as a way of getting rid of said red states the first belief collides hard with the second.

Cognitive dissonance is the divide by zero error of the human brain and they need a quick reboot to restore stable doublethink. Hence the moments of blank stares or incoherent rage when the topic is brought up.

As far as the squids and their bought politicos go, they want the red state resources, not the least of which is young men who are still masculine enough to fill the ranks of the military.

Anonymous Azimus January 17, 2013 10:39 AM  

Move Zig January 17, 2013 9:18 AM Azimus, is Dane County include Madison...or is it Milwaukee or both?? I know that is a very left leaning area.

Madison, Middleton (Feingold's home), Verona, Stoughton, McFarland, Waunakee, the whole fetid swamp of ivory tower socialists drinking the sweat equity of an otherwise productive and decent people. But mostly the University and the bureaucrats.

Milwaukee is OK as bigger cities go...at least the metro area as a whole.


Anonymous DonReynolds January 17, 2013 12:01 PM  

As you know from EU history, the only country to have a popular vote on EU membership, was the Republic of Ireland, which was unavoidable since it was required by their constitution. The Irish voted the EU down, but the response of the EU bureaucrats is to have yet another election on the same questions. (I understand the Irish have rejected the EU three times already.) But the EU is patient, they simply need to keep having elections until the damn EU wins.....after that, there will be no more of these pesky popular elections.

The Brits very much want to vote on the EU membership, as do the people of many countries. They were all sold into EU slavery by their elected governments for the benefit of thirty pieces of silver and a couple of photo ops. The EU position, as always, is that no elections are necessary....after all, the EU is here already and you certainly cannot turn back the clock, can you? But when given an opportunity to vote on the EU, it will likely fail every time....so the EU says that proves the common people are too stupid to know what is best and it proves that the EU is more important than ever. (Sounds like both political parties in this country.)

Anonymous Mike43 January 17, 2013 12:22 PM  

"Except wasn't it shown that when you account for big government (esp. the military) the Southern states become massively tax-producing rather than tax consuming?"

I have had this argument with my liberal siblings. What they fail to account for is not only the military stationed there but the Border, ICE, DOT, and all other types that regulate borders. I live in Texas, and can tell you their footprint is pretty big.

But as one pointed out; "hey, Texas left once, maybe troops should be there." Hmm. Can't really argue that except I was once a troop stationed in Texas. After a year, I knew where my future was, and it wasn't in a blue Midwestern state. So, I stayed.

Anonymous DonReynolds January 17, 2013 12:26 PM  

The South will at some point be an independent country...period.

The only question is how to get there obviously.

It seems the majority of Southern patriots are convinced that the Federal government is headed for an iceberg and cannot (or will not) change course to avoid it. The Federal government is unsustainable and it will not take long to fail. At that point, the Southern states reform themselves and move forward.

It seems a minority of Southern patriots are equally convinced the Federal government will fail, but we should not go down with them. It seems there will be a moment in history, when the Federal government has not yet sunk, that we need to take to the lifeboats and push away. Yeah, there will be rebellion by the states, but no, by then it won't be a big surprise or a big deal. When the time comes, it will be considered a rational act...just like last time.

Then there is a third way that does not depend on the failure of the Federal government or rebellion. The states will leave as a matter of constitutional amendment, negotiation, agreement, and compromise....pretty much the same as created Norway, a little over a century ago. We have a third of the land and a third of the population so we will take a third of the national debt with us and a third of the assets of the US government. We all call it square, all accounts are settled, and the poker game is over. We all shake hands and business continues undisturbed. (Sounds like something the Chamber of Commerce would get behind.) People naturally prefer peaceful solutions to shooting wars.

Anonymous The Anti-Gnostic January 17, 2013 1:27 PM  

We have a third of the land and a third of the population so we will take a third of the national debt with us and a third of the assets of the US government.

That would be the civilized way to settle things. However, I think one precipitating event will be when we find out all the new Americans aren't reporting income and pay taxes for all that debt they didn't incur. In other words, when the break-up comes, I'm not sure 'how to divvy up the debt' will be on the agenda.

As I'm sure you'd agree, the idea that all the current sovereigns were set in stone after WW2 is ridiculous. Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, the USSR, Greater Ethiopia, Greater Sudan, East/West Germany are all gone. Great Britain, Belgium, Spain, Italy are all headed for devolution. Revolutions and coups can't be ruled out either. The Greeks are about one pay period from open revolt. There are also a lot more conservative Catholic French than people think, and they're beginning to organize. Then there's that gasoline-soaked powder keg of bitter enemies known as the Middle East who live in each other's faces and have about half the jobs they need to keep their young men gainfully employed. And lots of Gulf Arabs beginning to wonder just what their fat, corrupt, stupid Emirs are doing with all that oil money.

Point being, change is about to sweep the planet and the idea that the US will just continue on its merry, multi-cult, progressive way is downright silly.

Anonymous Asher January 17, 2013 1:53 PM  

@ Bohm

The big one is Texas - how would these Texican patriots really feel living in the new Kazakstan. It's an interesting thought experiment.

Where in the world is your evidence that white men create third world societies for themselves??? Brown and black men ... that's another matter.

Anonymous Asher January 17, 2013 1:56 PM  

@ DonReynolds

The South will at some point be an independent country...period.

When that happens millions and millions of blacks will head north and foist their tender mercies on the "good" liberal white people. THAT is what they fear. For white liberals "diversity" is great so longg as they don't have to be around it.

Anonymous Asher January 17, 2013 2:46 PM  

Isn't "associate member" the guy who pours the coffee at club meetings? Maybe they could add a clause into the EU constitution stating that associate members shall receive annual hazing, and one weekend every summer Germans and French will run around London giving atomic wedgies. If you think that middle schoolers giving each other wedgies is funny imagine when it's seniors doing it. Adult diapers + atomic wedgies = maximum hilarity.

If it all works out they could offer assistant associate member status to Ireland and then they pour the Brits coffee and the population of Manchester will vacation in Dublin handing out the wedgies.

The EU will become an infinite regress of coffee pouring and atomic wedgies. Wait, are discussing the future or the present of the EU?

Anyways, Paul Krugman will get another Nobel Prize for claiming that cleaning up the mess from giving seniors atomic wedgies is 'fiscal stimulus'!!! In they end, Keynsianism will have been proven (sic) right and the only missing ingredient was atomic wedgies.

Ewww ... I just called wedgies the missing ingredient while making lunch. Well, there goes my appetite.

Anonymous Signe January 17, 2013 4:45 PM  

Asher...You win this thread.

Anonymous DonReynolds January 17, 2013 5:34 PM  

Yes....Asher wins it. Texans do not know how to create such a society...ha ha....guess what they do know.

Anonymous Asher January 17, 2013 5:47 PM  

@ DonReynolds

Reality is the harshest debt collector. Sure, one can ignore reality for a while, but when that bill comes due the interest is a real bitch. Liberals can only ignore the realities of racial differences for so long; that which cannot last will not.

Woman hath no fury like reality scorned.

BTW, any takers still out there for the proposition that I am just a Tad sock puppet?

Anonymous DonReynolds January 17, 2013 6:55 PM  

Asher....I never noticed anyone say you are just a Tad sock puppet, but you can be one if you like. I never try to imagine which of the regulars is using a new name. No doubt these things do happen, but I take everyone as they come and they can use any name they like. I use my own name and always have. Your posts are always interesting.

I do not worry too much about Tad. He is noisy and not very bright. He reads like he is retyping the latest issue of either People magazine or Time magazine, I am not completely sure which. Anyway, he is as predictable as he is politically correct, which does not mean much to me or anyone else here.

Anonymous Johnny Caustic January 17, 2013 7:37 PM  

dh: If everyone is telling the truth about what they believe and are not willing to compromise about, then the shooting would have started a long time ago.

dh, have you heard of Generational Dynamics? It's the historical observation that societies go through cycles, and existential crises (often involving economic collapse and total war) happen about once every human lifetime (70-100 years), when all of the survivors of the previous Crisis Era die off.

So the Civil War happened when there were few survivors of the Revolution left to restrain them, the Great Depression happened when there were no active traders left who remembered the causes of the Panic of 1873, and both the US and Germany fought WWII much more savagely than WWI because there were few survivors of the Civil War and the Wars of German Unification, respectively, to restrain them.

There are still people (like my father) alive who remember clearly the hardships of World War II. When those people are gone, the United States will go through another Crisis Era, probably marked by economic collapse and/or unrestrained bloodshed (probably in that order). It might be another civil war, it might be World War III against China, it might be a war against the Muslim world, it might be all three. But history teaches that another wave of unrestrained violence will happen, and also teaches that at the very moment it is starting there will be reams of people saying it could never happen.

Check it out: http://www.GenerationalDynamics.com/cgi-bin/D.PL?s=hYYFBR&d=ww2010.book.booktext

Anonymous Asher January 17, 2013 8:04 PM  

@ DonReynolds

Asher....I never noticed anyone say you are just a Tad sock puppet ...

A few have. What bothers me is not that I am personally hurt or offended but that it represents a grave tactical error. It's worse than a crime, it's a blunder.

I do not worry too much about Tad. He is noisy and not very bright. He reads like he is retyping the latest issue of either People magazine or Time magazine, I am not completely sure which. Anyway, he is as predictable as he is politically correct, which does not mean much to me or anyone else here.

You should be worried about Tad. Guys who think like him run all the elite institutions and control the language of discourse. If an idea is intellectually sound but not capable of being implemented then it is pointless.

The fact is that Tad gets gun rights people to come on here and support the rights of schizophrenics to own nuclear weapons. I know this may come as a shock, but that makes gun rights something advocated only by fringe-y loons. If gun grabbers can direct the conversation to whether or not schizophrenics should be allowed nukes then we have a serious problem.

That is what's known as a losing strategy - getting one's opponents to blunder is what's known as a feather in one's cap.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis January 17, 2013 8:27 PM  

I dont see the south breaking away, the dynamics of the nation have changed far too much. The issue isn't south versus north, thrall versus urban, or even conservative versus liberal. It's those who believe they should be supported by the government versus those who don't. And even then, the degree isn't that great. It's like the optios versus the populated of ancient Rome. Scrupuless leaders are taking advantage if this division and are using that to acquire wealth. There wil come a point were Indonesia will face a blagoveich moment but they don't go quietly. Rather than secession or revolution you will see a civil war over who wants control. I expect us to have a first cítízen of our own one day.

Anonymous Luke January 19, 2013 3:39 PM  

Anyone who thinks that the U.S. South is parasitic upon the nation as a whole (and the rest could dispense with it, and be better off in all eventualities) should consider where close to half of U.S. quality combat troops (especially worth a &*%$ combat officers) have come from. Likewise, there's a LOT of petroleum that's come out of the South the past 70 years, albeit this dependence is relatively weakening with drilling elsewhere. (I'm working these days on an oil rig in OHIO, for crying out loud.)

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