ALL BLOG POSTS AND COMMENTS COPYRIGHT (C) 2003-2014 VOX DAY. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. REPRODUCTION WITHOUT WRITTEN PERMISSION IS EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED.

Saturday, January 05, 2013

Spenglerian decline

Robert Merry writes of the decline of the West as prophesied by Oswald Spengler 91 years ago in The National Interest:
But modern Westerners—and Americans in particular—might want to ponder the implications of Spengler’s prediction that the first nation of the West would lead that civilization into an era of imperialism in corollary with serious erosions in its democratic structures. Is it possible that the mystical German thinker was right about that, just as he was right in so many other predictions regarding Western behavioral and cultural patterns? And isn’t the great foreign-policy debate of our time—whether America should continue its post–Cold War policy of interventionism in the name of American exceptionalism and Western universalism; or whether it should abandon that mission in favor of a more measured exercise of its military and economic power—fundamentally a debate over whether Spengler had it right?

What’s interesting about today’s foreign-policy debates is the disconnection between the country’s national leaders and the populace at large. The Republican Party is dominated by a neoconservative sensibility that favors widespread American involvement in overseas places such as Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria and Iran, while the Democratic Party is influenced heavily by a Wilsonian sensibility of moral imperative that often leads to the same interventionist advocacy, though sometimes for different reasons. And yet public-opinion surveys show that the American people harbor strong reservations about such interventionist vigor of either stripe.

Thus, it sometimes seems as if America is on autopilot as it moves haltingly but with seemingly inexorable force toward ever-greater involvement in the world even as discomfort increases within the electorate. But what about Spengler’s corollary prediction that the West’s democratic forms will erode as it fulfills its civilizational push to empire? Certainly, there is no popular sentiment for such a thing. Yet here too we see signs that the country is headed in that direction, reflected in a growing tendency toward arrogation of power on the part of the nation’s executive, at the expense of Congress, and Congress’s supine acquiescence in this trend. It’s seen also in the Federal Reserve’s remarkable power grab of recent years whereby it has circumvented the congressional appropriations process in making funds available to banks to execute its “quantitative easing” policies of loose money. Again, Congress has quietly accepted this incursion into its constitutional domain without so much as a whimper.

And so we come to the truly haunting question that confronts America in these times of growing global instability—whether, as the last nation of the West, America is destined to fulfill Spengler’s vision of hegemonic zeal mixed with a push toward dictatorship. Here’s where the natural aversion to Spengler’s dogmatic determinism will likely come into play. The answer is no, America’s future is in American hands. But Spengler’s audacious work stands as a great warning to Americans bent on protecting the hallowed civic institutions established at the founding of their Republic. The era of Western cultural health is dead, and it died pretty much as Spengler predicted it would. And no doubt his study of previous great civilizations did in fact accurately identify pressures and forces that emerge at particular points in civilizational development and push toward empire and Caesarism. This push can be resisted by a free people dedicated to the protection of their institutions of old. But they won’t be protected if events are placed on autopilot. The American impulse toward imperialism will prevail if it is not rebuffed consciously by the American people and their leaders. And if it prevails it will leave a tattered democratic republic in its wake. Then Oswald Spengler will have the last laugh.
I haven't read Spengler's magnum opus yet, although I intend to do so once I finish the very good Waugh novel that I am presently reading.  (Scoop is, in its own small way, a chronicle of decline too.) However, it will come as no surprise to most of you that I have reached similar conclusions; it is always a little disconcerting to discover that one's legitimately original theses were not only anticipated before one was born, but anticipated by a man who didn't have the advantage of literal decades of events from which to judge.  Spengler was on the other side of the Western civilizational peak from us, and yet from what I read in Merry's long article, many of the conclusions he reached based on logic are quite similar to the observations I and various others have made based on events.

Even the most die-hard feminist should be at least a little troubled by the way a man from the pre-feminist era was able to correctly predict the way feminism has led to increased authoritarianism and concerned that he will be similarly correct about its link to civilizational decline. I doubt this will be enough to cause any of them to rethink their devotion to their poisonous ideology; feminists are not known for their introspection so much as their solipsisim, after all.

And besides, feminism is less the cause than the symptom.  It may happen to be the particular mechanism by which the West falls, but given the fate of the past great civilizations, if it had not been that mechanism, it would simply have been another.

I do find Merry's declaration that "America's future is in American hands" to be more than a little facile, however.  This is manifestly not the case, not with all three branches of government increasingly and disproportionately populated by second- and third-generation immigrants, and an electorate that has never had less cultural and intellectual connection to the American political tradition.  I don't know yet what Spengler has to say about alien governance and mass immigration, but based on my own knowledge of civilizational decline, I suspect the fact that America's future is not actually in American hands will tend to support the applicability of his theory of decline to the present situation.

Labels:

157 Comments:

Anonymous aero January 05, 2013 5:38 AM  

What should I do run, hide or fight?

Anonymous VD January 05, 2013 5:46 AM  

Do what you believe to be right, according to the dictates of your conscience. That is all you can ever do in any situation. Remember, the fall of the West does not mean everything Western will disappear, it will simply be fragmented.

I recommend finding a place where you believe the fragment will be amenable to how you prefer to live. Unfortunately, the homogeneous 1950s-style American suburbia does not appear to be one of the options.

Anonymous scoobius dubious January 05, 2013 5:52 AM  

"What should I do run, hide or fight?"

The answer in such times is always the same: Mao knew it, during the Long March, and so did Fabius Maximus Cunctator back in the days of "Hannibal ad portas!".

Taking a leaf from the literal grammatical construction of a phrase that's popular in these parts, "molon labe" (literally: "coming, take"), I would say what you should do is:

Running, fight;
fighting, hide;
hiding, run;
hiding, fight;
fighting, run...

And so on.

The two most important, non-negotiable things are: a) forbid your children to race-mix, or to abandon their religion, or to be ashamed of their culture; and b) never, ever, ever listen to the political counsel of Jews. A careful study of America's twentieth-century slide will of course reveal... well, you already know in your bones what it'll reveal, don't you.

Anonymous zen0 January 05, 2013 6:01 AM  

The picture of Spengler in the article is disturbingly similar to Peter Seller's President Merkin Muffley character in Dr. Strangelove.

Anonymous aero January 05, 2013 6:02 AM  

Everything I believe is right they have a law against it.
For me the fragment I will look for is those people that put God, Family and friends first

Anonymous aero January 05, 2013 6:31 AM  

Once one finds a fragment, How do you keep it save from other fragments?

Anonymous aero January 05, 2013 6:32 AM  

Save should be safe

Anonymous Rantor January 05, 2013 6:54 AM  

Oh to return to childhood when Saturday morning meant Warner Brothers cartoons and hypersweetened corn-based cereal.

Sobering commentary with my whole-grain cereal. Sounds like a good book to add to the list.

I went by my local WalMart last week, needed some velcro, the ammo section was cleaned out. A few rounds of .22, 12 gauge and 30-06. Nothing else left. Feinstein has people running scared. I don't see how any ban can pass the House, but with Boehner anything is possible. Now it is time to go drive on some back roads and forget about this, before everyone else wakes up this morning.

Blogger Doom January 05, 2013 7:25 AM  

It's in our hands, or was. It was surrendered with the 19th, and that was the purpose of the 19th. Women weren't freed by it, we were all enslaved by it. That was the point. So, you are right, but you were wrong... or something.

Oh, and he wasn't the only writer who saw the writing on the wall back when. I run into it constantly when reading G.K. Chesterton. These men knew. It seems there was not a damn thing they could do about it either though. So, perhaps, you were right and right... Dunno, but I WANT to think otherwise.

As far as the sinking of civilization? If this is civilization, it needs to be destroyed and rebuilt, or simply abandoned as the catastrophe it always seems to become, so... that's a good. This civ. has to be destroyed, in any case, under the weight of the fallacies built into it's foundations, at this point. Dark ages do serve a purpose, no less than ice ages do.

Anonymous scoobius dubious January 05, 2013 7:58 AM  

"This civ. has to be destroyed"

Maybe _has_ to be, but it didn't _have_ to be. The critical period was 1954-1968, when:

1. The whole civil rights farce was enacted in a haphazard, legally bogus, consciously vindictive (Thurgood Marshall said it himself: he wasn't interested in fairness, he wanted payback), and blatantly unconstitutional fashion. Granted, something had to be done about Jim Crow, but we didn't have to do THIS about Jim Crow: build an insane Mecha-Godzilla which would dismantle Jim Crow and then turn right around and aim its radioactive flaming breath-spew on its own creators. (Well, not ALL of its creators: its Jewish co-creators found plenty of loopholes to escape its malignant effects, who could have seen THAT coming?).

2. The Great Society not only destroyed the black family and turned the black community into Thunderdome; it also granted tacit license for full-grown male negroes to wage an outright genocidal war campaign of crime and rape against the white population. Who benefited from the mass stampede of whites out of the burning, rape-happy, useless-schools city and into the suburbs? Why, the real estate developers, of course. And who might they be? It's a question worth asking, now, isn't it.

3. The insane 1965 immigration reform law --the life's work of one Emmanuel Celler, I might add-- guaranteed, through sheer force of mathematics over time, to transform America into a majority non-American, un-American, and anti-American nation.

4. This was the period in which the permament embedding, infestation, and grotesque over-representation of alien treason-minded Jews at the top and mid levels of all our major institutions, legal, political, judicial, financial, academic, journalistic, educational, cultural, became a sine qua non of American (or should I say "American") life.

It coulda been stopped, but it wasn't. All the American frog had to do was tell the Jewish scorpion, "Sorry, but no fucking way." But he didn't. And now the frog, fatally stung, will drown, and his body will be eaten by negroes, Latinos, Asians, and other parasites and vultures. It will be amusing to watch the scorpion try and bullshit its way into hitching a new ride on the back of the Chinese frog. I have the feeling somebody else will drown next time.

Anonymous The OASF January 05, 2013 8:07 AM  

I happen to think that he has a point about American's control over their destiny - Proverbs 28:2 confirms it. It's ultimately in the people's hands "For the transgression of a land many are the princes thereof: but by a man of understanding and knowledge the state thereof shall be prolonged." - KJV.

The elites hate the Bible not because it gets on their nerves or makes them feel bad, but because they FEAR it. Those in the elite circles know that a Godly people can not be openly challenged.

Blogger Nate January 05, 2013 9:10 AM  

I wouldn't quite jump to Spengler worship just yet. I'm not saying he wasn't brilliant. He was.

Just be advised... in a lot of ways reading Spengler is like read Wheeler at his worst.

Anonymous Cryan Ryan January 05, 2013 9:11 AM  

Scoobius,

Here's an analogy for your observation about the nature of Jews.

Imagine a large herd of wolves were living on a mountain range, with limited opportunity. Now imagine the adjacent mountains were populated with large herds of grazing sheep.

Are the wolves going to stay on their mountain and viciously compete with each other, scrounging whatever mice and insects they can find, (while being preyed on by other wolves)?

Or are they going to spread out, a dozen wolves on each mountain of sheep?

Imbalances will occur, necessitating migrations of Jews er I mean wolves to mountains with few wolves..er Jews.

To cover their tracks (not that the sheep are very clever) the wolves howl long and loud about how they are "persecuted" and "driven from their homelands" by the evil sheep.

The wolves are not driven away. The wolves are merely hunting. Doing what wolves do.

Blogger Nate January 05, 2013 9:15 AM  

" it is always a little disconcerting to discover that one's legitimately original theses were not only anticipated before one was born, but anticipated by a man who didn't have the advantage of literal decades of events from which to judge."

When I was young.. maybe... 14... a friend continually complained that all moral arguments were based on religion. She was pro-choice and said she would ignore all pro-life arguments that were even remotely religion based.

I constructed an argument based on behavior.. and extrapolating that behavior out to the masses. Basically... if everyone did it.. what would the world look like?

I worked the theory out quite a bit... then confronted her with it. Now... it isn't a fairy tale... she didn't change her mind. She likely had no mind to change in the first place. She was a kid like me... and had put no thought into anything. But still I had worked out my little theory and though I considered it childish and simplistic... it was original at least.

Then I went to college and read Kant.

And immediately lost all respect for anyone that thought Kant was anything but childish and simplistic.

Anonymous Rantor January 05, 2013 9:52 AM  

Nothing like driving on some twisty back roads at 80+ mph to wake up the senses and prepare for a Vox posting on TEOTWAWKI... there was even a spot of ice to make it interesting.

Reading the article, it strikes me that Spengler's ideas have similarities with Prechter's socionomics. Both have the premise that US civilization is in decline, that decline means more centralization of power and increased socialism/fascism, Prechter also says it leads to an increase in the number of women in power. If the premise is correct, it seems that societal forces are so large that the decline cannot be reversed, it must be played out.

So, would the best solution be to accelerate the decline so that something new can be started. Hit the giant reset button? If it is cyclical like Prechter and Elliott believe than that would be the best course. On a small scale, that is the approach Iceland took, let the bankrupt go bankrupt, push the reset button, reform some laws and move forward again.

Of course the US problem is much larger and no one is willing to press Ctrl-Alt-Del and work through the difficult issues. Fear prevents many elites from fixing the problems that they and their forefathers created. Corruption keeps almost all the rest of them from even trying. Just as I had to slam on the brakes for some tight turns this morning, so must America if she is to survive. A large, structured bankruptcy is the only economic solution. A 2% climb in interest rates will put debt servicing at a $1T a year rate, nearly $700B more than we are paying now. No one will hit resert until the elites figure out how to profit by it, or the system collapses under its own weight. It won't matter if it is deflation or hyperinflation.

Finally the problem, although most obvious in the economic policies that are failing, is more than budgetary, it is social and cultural. Once we get past this feminized-socialist period, the American people, whatever and whoever they are, will need a return to Christian, masculine, liberty-minded values to rise from the swamp. I fear that kind of change may take a long while.

Anonymous Rantor January 05, 2013 9:56 AM  

@Nate, what I knw about Kant:

"Immanuel Kant was a real pissant who was very rarely stable"

thanks to Monty Python

Blogger Nate January 05, 2013 10:09 AM  

Heidegger Heidegger was a boozy begger who could drink you under the table...

Anonymous fnn January 05, 2013 10:15 AM  

The neo-Spenglerian Francis Parker Yockey writing in 1948:
American “ethical syphilis”
(...)
The instruments of this assault and the weapons of propaganda, press, radio, cinema, stage, education. These weapons are controlled at this moment in Europe almost entirely by the forces of Culture-disease and social degeneration.

The “chief fount” is Hollywood, which “spews forth an endless series of perverted films to debase and degenerate the youth of Europe” after having successfully destroyed the youth of America.[7]

Concomitantly “a vicious literature” promotes the “destruction of healthy individual instincts, of normal familial and sexual life, of disintegration of the social organism into a heap of wandering, colliding, grains of human sand.”

The message of Hollywood is the total, significance of the isolated individual, stateless and rootless, outside of society and family, whose life is the pursuit of money and erotic pleasure. It is not the normal and healthy love of man and wife bound together by many children that Hollywood preaches, but a diseased erotic-for-its-own sake, the sexual love of two grains of human sand, superficial and impermanent. Before this highest of all Hollywood’s values everything else must stand aside: marriage, honor, duty, patriotism, sternness dedication to self to a higher aim. This ghastly distortion of sexual life has created the erotomaia that obsesses millions of victims in America, and which has now been brought to the Mother-soil of Europe by the American invasion.[8]

(...)
Hollywood-feminism has created a woman who is no longer a woman but cannot be a man, and a man who is devirilized into an indeterminate thing. The name given to this process is “the setting free” of woman and it is done in the name of “happiness,” the magic word of the liberal-communist-democratic doctrine.[9]

Anonymous The other skeptic January 05, 2013 10:23 AM  

One group of severely retarded people don't like the Hagel nomination

So, Jews and people who chop their bits off (as well as fudge packers and carpet munchers) don't like him, eh. Sounds like a good choice to me.

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 05, 2013 10:31 AM  

Gee, for all the Jew-hate in a Spengler thread, you'd think that people would recognize that we have been one of the longest-surviving civilizations, if not the longest one.

As "Spengler" (David Goldman) notes in his columns at the Asia Times, a lot of modern anti-Semitism may be rooted in the fact that other civilizations are jealous. As Europeans, Persians, and others are un-breeding themselves out of existence (see the birth rate in Iran now), Israel remains, grows, and prospers.

Anonymous scoobius dubious January 05, 2013 10:33 AM  

Cryan Ryan -- speaking as somebody who, um, knows more than a little bit about the biology and natural history of wolves, I have to tell you that even wolf-packs show more common sense and just concern for their proper place within their environment.

Anonymous scoobius dubious January 05, 2013 10:36 AM  

"a lot of modern anti-Semitism may be rooted in the fact that other civilizations are jealous."

Uh.................. no.

Typical Jewish belittlement tool, number 173-B-14. You can actually look it up in the catalogue.

Snore.

Wake me when you add a new attachment to the standard kit.



Anonymous scoobius dubious January 05, 2013 10:38 AM  

"we have been one of the longest-surviving civilizations, if not the longest one."

The tapeworm, too, has a long and illustrious ancient history. You have a great deal in common. Be proud! Be proud!




Blogger Nate January 05, 2013 10:42 AM  

"As Europeans, Persians, and others are un-breeding themselves out of existence (see the birth rate in Iran now), Israel remains, grows, and prospers."

While I do not number myself amongst the jew-haters... I will note that you certainly have an odd definition of prosperity.

It is a pattern of history that your people have behaved like locusts.

Anonymous Car zealot January 05, 2013 10:44 AM  

"Now it is time to go drive on some back roads and forget about this, before everyone else wakes up this morning."

You mean like this?

Anonymous scoobius dubious January 05, 2013 10:44 AM  

"Gee, for all the Jew-hate in a Spengler thread"

It isn't Jew-hate. Get that through your head. It isn't hate at all. Not. At. All.

Stop trying to steer the terms of free, open discourse into the cul-de-sac of your own particular interest.

Wait, what the hell am I saying? King Canute and what-not.

As you were. There's no changing you.



Anonymous VD January 05, 2013 10:47 AM  

Gee, for all the Jew-hate in a Spengler thread, you'd think that people would recognize that we have been one of the longest-surviving civilizations, if not the longest one.

What is this "Jewish civilization" of which you speak, Sam? Spengler didn't recognize any such thing.

THE EIGHT civilizations he identifies are Western, Greco-Roman, Indian, Babylonian, Chinese, Egyptian, Arabian and Mexican (Aztec). He focuses most deeply on three—Western (which he calls “Faustian”), Greco-Roman (“Apollinian”) and Arabian (“Magian”). Each of the great cultures was utterly distinctive in its worldview, its philosophical underpinning, its approach to artistic expression, its science and technics, and even its mathematics. And each possessed its own concept of space, which provided its prime symbols of perception, shaped its identity and guided its every thought.

Jews are, as they call themselves, a tribe. They're not even a complete people, (see the lost tribes), much less a civilization. Now, the nation of Israel may eventually prove to be the seed of a civilization, and I'd be interested in getting your perspective on whether the Jews of America will attempt the leap to China once the West collapses or whether they'll attempt to build their own civilization in the Middle East.

Also, please stop using the term "Jew-hate" when nothing of the sort has been expressed. Would you consider it hatred for someone to tell the Vikings players not to listen to the coach of the Packers concerning how they should approach the game tomorrow?

Anonymous The other skeptic January 05, 2013 10:52 AM  


and I'd be interested in getting your perspective on whether the Jews of America will attempt the leap to China once the West collapses or whether they'll attempt to build their own civilization in the Middle East.


In the same way that the Jews can pass for white in the Western world, the Chinese can pass for other Asians in much of Asia (although they still remain distinctive) and have experienced quite a bit of blow-back (sometimes called oppression) because they tend to occupy the top niches in host societies and engage in a fair bit of nepotism.

I cannot see such opportunities for them in China.

Blogger Nate January 05, 2013 10:55 AM  

"and I'd be interested in getting your perspective on whether the Jews of America will attempt the leap to China once the West collapses or whether they'll attempt to build their own civilization in the Middle East."

Considering economically China's corpse is already starting to decay... don't you think they would be more likely to go to Russia? Which is where the upswing is actually happening?

Anonymous E. PERLINE January 05, 2013 11:03 AM  

I got a laugh at my Jewish neighbor who laments that his two sons and daughter are as clueless about the world as their contemporaries are. That may account for why they voted for an Arab.

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 05, 2013 11:04 AM  

Vox,

Also, please stop using the term "Jew-hate" when nothing of the sort has been expressed.

Did you see these comments?

never, ever, ever listen to the political counsel of Jews.

alien treason-minded Jews

tell the Jewish scorpion

metaphor of Jews as wolves devouring sheep

your people have behaved like locusts


I'm all in favor of open, full discourse full of reasonable debate based on facts, but simple name-calling is something I abhor.

Nate,

I will note that you certainly have an odd definition of prosperity.

I was referring specifically to Israel the country. We are one of the few places on earth (along with Canada, South America, India, and China) that are seeing good economic growth amid the ongoing downturn. (Not that each economy also has its own issues.)

Everyone,

The stereotype of rich Jews is not based in fact. For most of European history, most Jews were poor. (It was not until after the mass immigration to the United States that Jews became more successful. Partly because they were not systematically ghettoized and forbidden from many jobs and universities.)

The only way for Jews to survive was to loan money at interest since the Catholic Church had forbidden Christians from doing so. And while a few became rich, most were still poor.

And far from being "locusts," many medieval kings invited Jews to their countries because the Jews had trade connections and would help their kingdoms economically. Then, after a few centuries, anti-Semitism would flare up, and they would be expelled to somewhere. And then the process would repeat throughout Europe. They'd be invited somewhere, kicked out, invited somewhere else, and then kicked out. And so on.

Vox,

What is this "Jewish civilization" of which you speak, Sam? Spengler didn't recognize any such thing.

I think Spengler missed one.

Now, the nation of Israel may eventually prove to be the seed of a civilization, and I'd be interested in getting your perspective on whether the Jews of America will attempt the leap to China once the West collapses or whether they'll attempt to build their own civilization in the Middle East.

Israel, to me, behaves like a teenager. It's not an entirely-new country, but it's not a mature one by far. There are many internal societal, political, and economic issues that need to be worked out. But it takes generations.

But I've personally met many American Jews (especially twenty-something ones) who, like myself years ago, have moved to Israel because life is better here. There are jobs and universal health-care and government-mandated pensions. They become dual citizens, and a few hard-core Zionist ones even give up their U.S. citizenship.

And even more are coming here from Europe because of the increasing number of Arabs and Arab and European anti-Semitism.

If the U.S. and Europe continue downhill, I would not be surprised to see this trend continue and increase.

Anonymous Rantor January 05, 2013 11:05 AM  

@ Car Zealot,

Not quite, I kept the car on asphalt... didn't want to bring in more gardeners to fix the lawn.

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 05, 2013 11:06 AM  

Oh, random factoid: There is a small community of Jews in China because the country took some refugees as the Nazis rose to power. But I know nothing about them.

Blogger Nate January 05, 2013 11:07 AM  

"I was referring specifically to Israel the country. We are one of the few places on earth (along with Canada, South America, India, and China) that are seeing good economic growth amid the ongoing downturn. (Not that each economy also has its own issues.)"

/facepalm

The fact that you number China as a place seeing economic growth rather invalidates your observations.

Anonymous Rantor January 05, 2013 11:08 AM  

@Scott,

How well funded is Israel's universal health care and pension scheme??? Did they finally crack the nut and make socialism work?

Anonymous The other skeptic January 05, 2013 11:08 AM  


And far from being "locusts," many medieval kings invited Jews to their countries because the Jews had trade connections and would help their kingdoms economically. Then, after a few centuries, anti-Semitism would flare up, and they would be expelled to somewhere. And then the process would repeat throughout Europe. They'd be invited somewhere, kicked out, invited somewhere else, and then kicked out. And so on.


You forgot to mention tax collectors.

Have you looked objectively at the experiences of all parties, including the invited Jews, the ruling classes and the ruled classes? You might find some interesting things if you do.

Anonymous fnn January 05, 2013 11:09 AM  

> don't you think they would be more likely to go to Russia? Which is where the upswing is actually happening?

Is there really any reason for optimism when it comes to Russia?

Is Giant Russia a Dying Bear?

Anonymous The OASF January 05, 2013 11:09 AM  

"Jews are, as they call themselves, a tribe. They're not even a complete people, (see the lost tribes), much less a civilization."

It is amusing to see how Christianity (the nominal American brand, anyway) has been fooled into thinking that America exists only to serve a people who really don't exist in any kind of meaningful way anymore. The "nation" of Israel is a series of lines on a map drawn by the victors of WWII and have since used it as a geopolitical proxy for their entirely failed/immoral escapades into the Middle East.

The paid-actors who pose as Christian leaders on Church TV (Pat Robertson, John Hagee, Van Impee, his "wife", etc. etc. etc.) huff and puff about Jerusalem being conquered by the moslems and turrists. That the Al-Aqsa Mosque harmlessly sits in old Jerusalem and the only turrists of consequence there are the ones who buy post cards, ceramic bells and key chains is a notion has yet to dawn on the crazed denizens-in-their-own-country Americans.

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 05, 2013 11:10 AM  

Nate,

The fact that you number China as a place seeing economic growth rather invalidates your observations.

I said that China is seeing growth, but out of the countries I listed, it is the one that has the biggest potential problems. An aging population and few young people, building cities of empty buildings to "fake" growth, and so on.

China might be even a bigger house of cards than the United States was before 2008. But I was talking about the future, just the observable present.

Blogger Nate January 05, 2013 11:10 AM  

"And far from being "locusts," many medieval kings invited Jews to their countries because the Jews had trade connections and would help their kingdoms economically. Then, after a few centuries, anti-Semitism would flare up, and they would be expelled to somewhere."

Its interesting that you speak of anti-semitism flaring up as if it has a mind of its own... some sentient being that always crashes the party of its own accord... its almost like you think the common thread... jewish behavior... has nothing to do with it.

Blogger Desert Cat January 05, 2013 11:13 AM  

"it is always a little disconcerting to discover that one's legitimately original theses were not only anticipated before one was born, but anticipated by a man who didn't have the advantage of literal decades of events from which to judge."

"There is nothing new under the sun." -- Solomon, c. 950 BC

OTOH it certainly lends weight to your theses to find that they have been explored and validated by prior great minds.

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 05, 2013 11:14 AM  

Rantor,

How well funded is Israel's universal health care and pension scheme??? Did they finally crack the nut and make socialism work?

Israel's health-care system is fueled by higher taxes. (America's flaw is that people want government services but not to pay for them. Either have few services and taxes, or high levels of each.)

Employers are mandated by law to contribute 8% (I think) of the worker's salary to a pension. Workers are mandated to contribute 5% to the pension. Workers choose how to allocate the pension.

(If you are young, you may want a higher percentage in high-risk, high-return stocks. If you are old, you may want all of it in stable, low-risk bonds. There are roughly six allocations from which you can choose.)

If you withdraw from your pension before retirement age (65, I think), you pay a 45% penalty.

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 05, 2013 11:17 AM  

The other skeptic,

Have you looked objectively at the experiences of all parties, including the invited Jews, the ruling classes and the ruled classes? You might find some interesting things if you do.

I haven't really studied European history since college, so I'd love to hear of any quality sources. Note: Quality -- not online essays by random websites with agenda. :)

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 05, 2013 11:20 AM  

Nate,

The causes of anti-Semitism are indeed very complex -- it's why I used the passive voice.

It's different in every case. Nutshell: Sometimes it's fueled by religion ("They killed Jesus!"), sometimes it's ethnic ("Kill the inferior races!"), sometimes it's political ("We hate Israel!), and so on. There is not a single cause that can be named that unites all of the expulsions and pogroms and killings over the centuries in Europe.

Note: I know nothing about the Jewish experience in Arab countries in ancient and medieval times. It might have been different. I just cannot say one way or the other.

Anonymous Orville January 05, 2013 11:22 AM  

"America's future is in American hands".

I think not. The culture that produced the Constitution has been dead for a long time. All that's left are rotted bits of meat on the skeleton. Clearly we are on a path towards totalitarianism, that is if the country doesn't fragment from the coming economic collapse. I have no idea which it will be either.

This whole thing of saying, "if we just did X, we could tough it out and get past the problems" is just useless navel gazing. We all know individuals facing great self-inflicted dilemmas, and have said in our minds, if not to them, if you would just tough it out and do x,y and z, you could solve your problem. But they rarely ever do, for the same lack of character or culture that lead them into the problem, keeps them from making the hard choices to get out of said problem.

So what to do? Run, hide, fight as suggested above? Migrate to culturally acceptable "white christian" areas as some are already doing? Stay local, but form affiliation groups? Any of those would pop you up on a fusion center list and paint a giant bulls eye on your back. I don't know, but it deserves a lot of thought, and is a worthwhile topic apart from "how we got here" or "how we fix it".

I'm interested in what the ilk think on how best to ride this out.

Anonymous scoobius dubious January 05, 2013 11:24 AM  

"simple name-calling is something I abhor."

It's not name-calling. Really, it isn't. It's more like illustrative metaphor. Sort of, you know, like "a righteous gentile" -- as if such persons were so rare, they could be individually named and numbered. You know how it goes.

"many medieval kings invited Jews to their countries"

So you mean, sort of like mercenaries. And we all know how beloved mercenaries are among a given populace.

I'm not going to debate or rebut this gentleman; I want him to just keep on talking. It does my heart good to hear what he has to say.



Anonymous Samuel Scott January 05, 2013 11:25 AM  

By the way, is there an easier way to reply to comments here than to post a new comment and copy the person's name and comment above to include? And I always have to enter my name and website each time.

The functionality here's not that great. :( (No offense, Vox!)

Anonymous VD January 05, 2013 11:26 AM  

Did you see these comments?

Of course. None of that can be characterized as hatred. Correctly or incorrectly, it is descriptive of past and present behavior on the part of some Jews. You can certainly dispute the analogies or the correctness of the historical characterizations, but you cannot reasonably cry "Jew-hate" and expect that to be considered a credible response.

As Spengler himself said: "The means whereby to understand living forms is Analogy."

Complaining about the use of analogy in a Spengler thread is, to say the least, deeply ironic.

I think Spengler missed one.

Very well. If you genuinely think there is a Jewish civilization, what stage of the cycle is it presently in?

Anonymous The OASF January 05, 2013 11:27 AM  

"...the Russian military, which has modernized elements of its armed forces, remains weak. And though Russia's brazen invasion of Georgia demonstrated a willingness and ability to use its military for tactical gains and to send strategic messages, Moscow risks overplaying its hand."

This is priceless. Gotta love the anti-Russian propaganda.

Funny, it's not Russia that is encircling America with useless military bases which serve as little more than target practice for nuclear-armed ICBMs.

Anonymous VD January 05, 2013 11:27 AM  

By the way, is there an easier way to reply to comments here than to post a new comment and copy the person's name and comment above to include? And I always have to enter my name and website each time.

I wish... I'm sorry, but that's how Blogger does it. I tried all the other comment options and found them lacking.

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 05, 2013 11:28 AM  

Rantor,

How well funded is Israel's universal health care and pension scheme??? Did they finally crack the nut and make socialism work?

Israel's health-care system is fueled by higher taxes. (America's flaw is that people want government services but not to pay for them. Either have few services and taxes, or high levels of each.)

Employers are mandated by law to contribute 8% (I think) of the worker's salary to a pension. Workers are mandated to contribute 5% to the pension. Workers choose how to allocate the pension.

(If you are young, you may want a higher percentage in high-risk, high-return stocks. If you are old, you may want all of it in stable, low-risk bonds. There are roughly six allocations from which you can choose.)

If you withdraw from your pension before retirement age (65, I think), you pay a 45% penalty.


Forgot to mention: Pensions are administered by third-party pension companies that are heavily overseen by the government. Your employer sends the payments to them each month. (Salaried workers are paid monthly here.) So there is less chance of an "Enron" happening.

Anonymous Mr. Pea January 05, 2013 11:29 AM  

Ride it out... into... what?

Well, I suppose when you have millions of AmeriKans who are willing to be groped, probed, and irradiated, there is no measure to how many injustices they will grudgingly and/or happily cower to.

Riding it out means you are accepting what is at the end of the road.

Blogger Nate January 05, 2013 11:29 AM  

" But I was talking about the future, just the observable present."

yes. That is my point. At present... china isn't growing. Its dying. That miss... combined with the omission of the real economic superpower growing in the world... Russia... is a problem.

Anonymous Move Zig January 05, 2013 11:30 AM  


China is having economic difficulties? I thought they were going strong. Aren't they the ones lending us all that money?

Anonymous The other skeptic January 05, 2013 11:32 AM  


The causes of anti-Semitism are indeed very complex -- it's why I used the passive voice.

It's different in every case. Nutshell: Sometimes it's fueled by religion ("They killed Jesus!"), sometimes it's ethnic ("Kill the inferior races!"), sometimes it's political ("We hate Israel!), and so on. There is not a single cause that can be named that unites all of the expulsions and pogroms and killings over the centuries in Europe.


A long time ago when my code failed to compile or crashed I used to blame the compiler or the computer.

Now I am wiser and I acknowledge my own mistakes. It is very rare to find problems in the compiler or the computer, although I have hit one problem with the compiler and libtool used to do crazy shit is a cross-compiled situation.

Anonymous The OASF January 05, 2013 11:33 AM  

But Nate... you failed to realize that the Russian military, which has modernized elements of its armed forces, remains weak. And though Russia's brazen invasion of Georgia demonstrated a willingness and ability to use its military for tactical gains and to send strategic messages, Moscow risks overplaying its hand.

yeehahahaha... this is sucking the joy from my BVA Compass Bowl hype.

Anonymous CrisisEraDynamo January 05, 2013 11:33 AM  

Wouldn't artificial wombs alleviate the "not enough children" problem somewhat?

Think about it. A woman can freeze her eggs when she is young, work at her career to build up some savings, then dip out and become a mother at 45, with as many children as she wants. Granted, she'll have a hard time finding a husband at that age, and she will be raising multiple children (and spending money on them) as an aging single mother, but it allows for feminist women to be more fertile.

Then again, if sperm banks dry up as a result of donors being forced to pay child support, waiting until one's late thirties or forties may still be an unwise idea.

Anonymous Rantor January 05, 2013 11:33 AM  

@Scott,

Just googled twoa rticles on Israel's system. Looks like pensions are means tested, so more socialistic, and despite this, reforms will be needed to keep the system solvent.

The Israeli medical system, as the article concludes:

"Israel’s system of socialized medicine is often held up as an example of “it can work”. However, one should consider the conditions are uniquely favorable (sound population pyramid, high social prestige enjoyed by doctors, basic absence of a tort litigation/malpractice insurance cost spiral,…) — yet still the system is showing cracks. If it isn’t sustainable in Israel, it probably isn’t gonna work anywhere."

Hmm. Socialism continues to require the population growth ponzi effect or it runs into trouble. So, like in America, where it will work for a while, and benefit a generation or three, it will eventually collapse as unaffordable. So maybe the timing is good and your system will take care of you through death... but will it take care of the grand children?

Of course we have no tort reform in America and as lawyers make the laws we never will. The overly corporate medical system also leaches off a ton of money followed by the government bureaucracy overseeing it. I for one would never boast of a government run pension or medical insurance scheme, in the end they depend on passing bills to future generations. The problem with your statement is that you are a socialist living in the early generation of a socialist state and refuse to accept that the system can not go on forever.

WHich brings us back to the problem at hand, the corrupt, over-reaching, imperial government of the US has hit a point of no return on finances. some type of economic collapse is bound to happen, and as spengler points out, the west invented the idea of infinity along with that we tend to think we can kick the can pretty far before accepting the just desserts for living out an unjust economic fantasy.

Anonymous VD January 05, 2013 11:33 AM  

And far from being "locusts," many medieval kings invited Jews to their countries because the Jews had trade connections and would help their kingdoms economically. Then, after a few centuries, anti-Semitism would flare up, and they would be expelled to somewhere. And then the process would repeat throughout Europe. They'd be invited somewhere, kicked out, invited somewhere else, and then kicked out. And so on.

This did happen. But just as often, the Jews infiltrated when they were not legally permitted to enter or reside in the kingdom. I went over this with Chelm Wiseman a while back, if you recall. I have not, however, seen any methodical study of this. It would actually make for an interesting paper: invited guests or unwanted invaders?

After all, is not one of the great complaints about the WWII era the fact that neither the USA nor the UK were willing to take European Jews in? With the exception of the rocket scientists, they certainly weren't invited here... and yet only 60 years later, they made up 6.4% of the House and 12% of the Senate.

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 05, 2013 11:34 AM  

Nate,

the real economic superpower growing in the world... Russia... is a problem.

Not so sure about Russia.

Russia's great economic advantage is its plenty of natural resources. But they also have a severe demographic and corruption problem. Most Russians I know want to get out -- and many of them come to Israel, as it turns out.

(Random factoid: Anyone who has at least one grandparent who was Jewish, even if he is not Jewish himself, can get automatic Israeli citizenship. Israel uses the Nazi definition of Jew -- and some in Israel want to limit the law now only to people who are Jews themselves. It's a big controversy.)

Anonymous Orville January 05, 2013 11:35 AM  

Mr. Pea, ride it out or fight it out is part of the question, and I'm currently of the opinion that I should submit to the powers that God set over me, except when it concerns denying Christ. That said, I'm actually struggling with this, as I have numerous firearms that I'd prefer to not have confiscated. This is one of those real life biblical questions that we are going to be faced with.

Que Nate and the others... :-)

Blogger Nate January 05, 2013 11:38 AM  

"It's different in every case. Nutshell: Sometimes it's fueled by religion ("They killed Jesus!"), sometimes it's ethnic ("Kill the inferior races!"), sometimes it's political ("We hate Israel!), and so on. "

and here again.. we see that your in your view any time someone disagrees with the jews... it is represented as something wrong with them... and the jews are entirely innocent.

This brings to mind the way homosexuals are incapable of being assholes... because if you think a homosexual is an asshole... you're a homophobe.

Anonymous Orville January 05, 2013 11:39 AM  

Oh well, I think Nate is too busy chasing Jews,Queers and Squirrels.

Anonymous Stilicho January 05, 2013 11:41 AM  

And even more are coming here from Europe because of the increasing number of Arabs and Arab and European anti-Semitism.

If the U.S. and Europe continue downhill, I would not be surprised to see this trend continue and increase.


This trend makes large-scale warfare inevitable.

Employers are mandated by law to contribute 8% (I think) of the worker's salary to a pension. Workers are mandated to contribute 5% to the pension. Workers choose how to allocate the pension.

While interventionist, this isn't socialist. Rather it is forced savings.

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian, King of Aquilonia January 05, 2013 11:44 AM  

Samuel Scott,

If I may...
Is Scott your surname? Is your handle just a nom de plume?

I ask because you self identify as jewish. However, if your surname is Scott then it would seem to indicate that you have Scottish (ulster scot) lineage.

Just curious as it always struck me as odd considering your very Scottish surname (if in fact it is a real name or your surname).

Blogger Nate January 05, 2013 11:47 AM  

"Mr. Pea, ride it out or fight it out is part of the question, and I'm currently of the opinion that I should submit to the powers that God set over me, except when it concerns denying Christ. That said, I'm actually struggling with this, as I have numerous firearms that I'd prefer to not have confiscated. This is one of those real life biblical questions that we are going to be faced with."

Biblically speaking.. the notion that God puts people in power over you that you should submit to is simply idiocy.

You. Read. Romans. Wrong.

Period.

Fighting against Tyranny is obedience to God.

As for how one should respond... I cannot tell you that. I can tell you what I am going to do. I am leaving. I do not love america enough to fight for it.

I believe all governments are corrupt and have a will to power... so I will choose one that doesn't have the means to enforce that will. I will find some poor second world country that can't afford drones and high tech military enforcers... and I will make a life for my own self... and I will be responsible for my own fate. I will defend myself and my property if I can.. and if I cannot... I will die.

But it will be on me. Not anyone else.

Anonymous scoobius dubious January 05, 2013 11:48 AM  

"The causes of anti-Semitism are indeed very complex"

Are you quite sure that there really is such a thing as the phenomenon you label "anti-Semitism"? Are you quite sure that it isn't really just a cat's-paw, a weapon of convenience, to be used at whim for the advantage of interested parties? If the anti-Semitism in, say, Lithuania for a random example, was really so terrible, then, um... why did the Jewish population remain in Lithuania? Wait, no, don't tell me, I think I can guess. I can tell you why the Irish remained in Ireland in spite of English persecution. I cannot for the life of me tell you why a Semitic Mediterranean people who despised Poles and Polish Catholicism remained in Poland. Oh wait, of course I can, it's just not considered polite to say why.

For instance, you might object, "If there were no such thing as anti-Semitism, then why were so many Jews murdered in the Nazi prison camps?"

To which I might reply, with utmost calm, "Well, what do you call the insane bloodthirsty animus that led the Bolshevik Jews to murder millions of Russian and Ukrainian European Christians, in a systematic manner that pre-dated the Nazi death machine and served as its model?"

What shall we call it, the murderous impulse that led your people to mold and fashion the very model of their Nazi imitators? Anti-what-ism?

Anonymous zen0 January 05, 2013 11:49 AM  

The causes of anti-Semitism are indeed very complex -- it's why I used the passive voice. Sam Scott

You forgot to mention the leftist Jewish dominance of the progressive agenda that is in the process of destroying the social fabric of America.

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 05, 2013 11:50 AM  

Conan,

My family name was actually Schott (German) back in the day. They changed it to Scott when my father's side came here. I don't remember if it was just before World War I, but that would seem to be a good reason to change it.

Here's the kicker (which I don't think I've ever said here): I converted to Judaism ten years ago. I was raised Roman Catholic, then evangelical when I was a teenager. In high school, I realized that I didn't believe in Christianity, so I began researching all the religions.

(In high school, I was a writer who was naturally curious about everything, so I was interested in journalism. My old career was as a Boston newspaper editor before moving to Israel and getting into global, high-tech, online marketing.)

After studying religion in high school, college, and after college, I chose Judaism. And the exact reasons are FAR too lengthy to mention in the comments. :)

No, that's my real name. My name here even links to my real website. I believe is using my real name everywhere. I don't write anonymously because I think people should stand by whatever they think.

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 05, 2013 11:50 AM  

^ when my father's side came to America

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 05, 2013 11:53 AM  

Vox,

Very well. If you genuinely think there is a Jewish civilization, what stage of the cycle is it presently in?

Now that I think more about it, I think that Jewish/Israeli civilization might be one of the few (or even the only) that does not fit into Spengler's paradigm. That civilization's history is so vastly different than any other, so it might be the exception that proves rule.

But I don't know. I'd need to give it some more thought and research...

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian, King of Aquilonia January 05, 2013 11:53 AM  

Thanks for the answer Samuel.

Blogger Desert Cat January 05, 2013 11:55 AM  

Move Zig January 05, 2013 11:30 AM
China is having economic difficulties? I thought they were going strong. Aren't they the ones lending us all that money?


"That money" is the Federal Reserve Notes (paper) we gave them in exchange for real manufactured goods. They lend (return) this paper to the US by their purchase of US treasuries. Said paper is then spent by the US government, largely returning it into to the US economy.

In return they are given a promise of future repayment at interest (T-bill), said interest being held very close to zero by the very Federal Reserve that created the paper out of thin air in the first place.

They've got a tiger by the tail and are not particularly happy about it...

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 05, 2013 11:55 AM  

Rantor,

Just googled twoa rticles on Israel's system. Looks like pensions are means tested, so more socialistic, and despite this, reforms will be needed to keep the system solvent.

The Israeli medical system, as the article concludes:


You might be confusing two things.

1. The pension system is entirely paid from employers and employees. Not the government.

2. The universal health-care system is something else entirely. But I honestly don't know enough to comment. I don't want to say something that's factually inaccurate.

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 05, 2013 12:01 PM  

Vox,

I have not, however, seen any methodical study of this. It would actually make for an interesting paper: invited guests or unwanted invaders?

That would actually be very fascinating to read, if something exists. But it would need to be based on sound, objective premises. And that is rare on such a topic.

I imagine the answer depends on perception.

Say a company invites some consultants, who advise on how to grow a company. The consultants get rich, and the company is able to hire more people over time. The company's owners see the benefit of the consultants immediately, but the common workers might not realize it. All they see is the consultants getting rich in the short term without realizing that the workers will benefit as well in the long term.

So, the worker might think they are "unwanted invaders," but the company owner considers them to be "invited guests."

Might be a bad analogy. Who knows.

After all, is not one of the great complaints about the WWII era the fact that neither the USA nor the UK were willing to take European Jews in? With the exception of the rocket scientists, they certainly weren't invited here... and yet only 60 years later, they made up 6.4% of the House and 12% of the Senate.

Nearly all Jewish immigration occurred decades before WWII, so most American Jews are descendents of that population.

Anonymous Mr. Pea January 05, 2013 12:03 PM  

...I'm currently of the opinion that I should submit to the powers that God set over me...

Meh. I'm currently of the opinion that I should submit to the rapist (powers) that G-d set over me and my family who is sodomizing my wife, daughter, and son.

Submit to evil then. G-d certainly has given you that choice. After all, rather than occupy, we have chosen where we are because we have submitted to another power.

Blogger Doom January 05, 2013 12:14 PM  

They've got a tiger by the tail and are not particularly happy about it...

I love perspective.

Actually, much of the world is wiping the industrial nations' asses with the silk toilet paper of their work for the leisure of their betters, scratching their heads trying to figure out... just how this came to pass. It's that f'ing capitalism! Of course, what is good for the goose isn't good for the gander, and so even most Americans are being cut out of the game. It's that f'ing socialism! Hehe.

Vox was right, this is sort of fun to watch. Albeit it is like watching your children on a roller coaster you know is not safe but have no means of interfering with it now that it is rolling. It ain't going to end pretty, soon or late.

Anonymous Alice Finkel January 05, 2013 12:19 PM  

It sounds as if a lot of people are worried about their civilizations, societies, and cultures, when they might be more properly concerned about themselves.

As Tom Delaney wrote in his classic song, "Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die." In other words, everybody wants to thrive and survive, but nobody wants to make the tough changes and the tough decisions he would have to make to reach that goal.

Change yourself and your circle of influence in the right ways, and your job is half done.

The west may be doomed, but you don't have to be unless you keep drinking the koolaid.

Anonymous The other skeptic January 05, 2013 12:20 PM  


Say a company invites some consultants, who advise on how to grow a company. The consultants get rich, and the company is able to hire more people over time. The company's owners see the benefit of the consultants immediately, but the common workers might not realize it. All they see is the consultants getting rich in the short term without realizing that the workers will benefit as well in the long term.

So, the worker might think they are "unwanted invaders," but the company owner considers them to be "invited guests."

Might be a bad analogy. Who knows.


Do you think that the workers in the UK have benefited more than they might have? How about the workers in the US currently?

It could hardly be claimed that the "consultants," to use your term, have been kicked out of the US or the UK (for a long while).

Anonymous DonReynolds January 05, 2013 12:21 PM  

Oswald Spengler had no reason to believe that mass ILLEGAL immigration would be unchecked. American history up to that point had been controlled and limited, at times in the extreme. What nation would throw open their borders to anyone and everyone from the Turd World, without qualifications of any of the kinds we had seen in the past? No public health checks. No trade/profession or financial ability. No criminal background check. No Attorney Generals list. Everyone welome to invade the USA, including Communists, terrorists, and psychopaths. Maybe the Grand Strategy is to get them here, so we do not have to fight them everywhere else.

Anonymous kawaika January 05, 2013 12:21 PM  

"If you genuinely think there is a Jewish civilization, what stage of the cycle is it presently in?"

Spin cycle.

Anonymous The other skeptic January 05, 2013 12:22 PM  


To which I might reply, with utmost calm, "Well, what do you call the insane bloodthirsty animus that led the Bolshevik Jews to murder millions of Russian and Ukrainian European Christians, in a systematic manner that pre-dated the Nazi death machine and served as its model?"


There are very few new ideas, however, do you have links to documents that establish these claims. I would like to read them.

Blogger Doom January 05, 2013 12:24 PM  

scoobius dubious,

Maybe _has_ to be, but it didn't _have_ to be. The critical period was 1954-1968, when:

Aye, but what brought that into contention? The 19th amendment, among others, allow people who had not reason to vote, and nothing to lose or offer, into affecting the political. Again, I suggest that it started with the 19th, though turning the senate into another congress by making the senate a direct popular, not state/governor allotment, was part of it. As was creating voter equality through the removal of regional weighting (land mass versus popularity). Those were what culminated in the "civil rights" debacle. Direct line to drunken idiocy of the political. Mostly the 19th, though.

Blogger Nate January 05, 2013 12:27 PM  

"That civilization's history is so vastly different than any other, so it might be the exception that proves rule."

A snowflake civilization.


Brilliant!

Anonymous scoobius dubious January 05, 2013 12:30 PM  

"Say a company invites some consultants, who advise on how to grow a company."

I've got a better analogy. Say a company invites an in-grown nepotistic self-serving cabal of hostile, hate-filled gangsters with a permanent grudge against the employees of their new "company," and an abiding if unsubstantiated faith that they are somehow "better" and more entitled than the employees, and that the new gangsters then lustily set out on a well-established pattern (that's what they were invited for!) of usury, extortion, swindling, tax-farming and slave-trading (yes, you heard me, Jews, that's right, rampant Jewish SLAVE-TRADING!). How are the 'employees' to justly view the gangsters? In fact, how is ANYBODY to justly view the foreign gangsters? I suppose we'll have to make "anti-gangsterism" a terrible sin, and a matter of much academic study... funded, of course, with profits from the gangsters.

Yawn. It never, ever stops, does it.

Stop spinning the narrative to suit your interests, and lying about it in the process.

Anonymous The other skeptic January 05, 2013 12:32 PM  


Do you think that the workers in the UK have benefited more than they might have? How about the workers in the US currently?


Also, do you think those workers are happy with the continual destruction of their cultures?

It cannot be denied, I think, that there are a good many Jews who think that Christian-based Western culture must be torn down and remade into something that the Jews are happy with.

This culturocide has to stop.

Anonymous CatDog January 05, 2013 12:32 PM  

Most of the rocket scientists kidnapped by the American government after World War II were ethnic Germans (such as Wernher von Braun).

Anonymous Mr. Pea January 05, 2013 12:36 PM  

...for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him.

Or,

...how can anyone enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house.

Good day.

Anonymous scoobius dubious January 05, 2013 12:39 PM  

With all the biased yapping of "they killed Jesus!" it is very often forgotten that the original theological Us-Versus-Them grudge match was that of Jews against powerless Christians. Saint Stephen, the first Christian martyr, was of course stoned to death by a mob of psychotic Jews. Check your Talmud. You have one, right? Christians were persecuted with great glee in any polity where Jews held sway, and in fact what is called "anti-Semitism" pre-dates the advent of Christianity by several centuries, and is the product of the observations of Hellenistic Greeks, primarily in Alexandria and Hellenistic Egypt. We won't get into the shenanigans in Islamic Spain, which resulted, some 700 YEARS LATER, with the terrible, unjust expulsion of those all-so-innocent Jews.

But keep those tears flowing, Jews. They serve their purpose, don't they.

Anonymous A Visitor January 05, 2013 12:39 PM  

I just read the entire linked article, as well as your take, Vox. The man had great foresight. It's amazing how accurate his views were (albeit unfortunate for us).

Anonymous Philalethes January 05, 2013 12:40 PM  

Interesting to compare Spengler's thoughts (as filtered through this writer) with those of Sir John Glubb in his 1976 booklet The Fate of Empires and Search for Survival. A couple of articles:

John Bagot Glubb
The Fate of Empires

The booklet itself can be found in PDF form on the 'Net, though it takes a little searching as apparently Glubb's heirs are being stingy with permission to circulate it.

Anonymous fnn January 05, 2013 12:44 PM  

To which I might reply, with utmost calm, "Well, what do you call the insane bloodthirsty animus that led the Bolshevik Jews to murder millions of Russian and Ukrainian European Christians, in a systematic manner that pre-dated the Nazi death machine and served as its model?"

There are very few new ideas, however, do you have links to documents that establish these claims. I would like to read them.


Jewish Communist cadres allegedly played a major role in implementing the Ukrainian Holodomor:
http://desip.igc.org/HolocaustAndHolodomor.html
(...)
Jews among the Bolsheviks who imposed the holodomor of 1932-33 would have relished settling scores after the 40 years of bloody pogroms that followed Czar Alexander II’s assassination in 1881—especially the still-recent massacre of 50,000 to 100,000 Jews, mostly in the Ukraine, during the Russian civil war of 1918-21. (Far greater numbers of gentiles, of course, also perished in that war; estimates run well into the millions.)

Albert S. Lindemann, Esau’s Tears, pp. 442-43 (Cambridge University Press, 1997) says that “[i]n. . . the Ukraine, the Cheka leadership was overwhelmingly Jewish”; that “the high percentage of Jews in the secret police continued well into the 1930s”; and that “[c]omparisons to the secret police in Nazi Germany have tempted many observers.
. . . [T]he extent to which both. . . prided themselves in being. . . willing to carry out the most stomach-turning atrocities in the name of an ideal. . . is striking.” Lindemann adds that:

George Leggett, the most recent and authoritative historian of the Russian secret police, speculates that the use of [non-Slavic ethnic minorities in the secret police] may have been a conscious policy, since such ‘detached elements could be better trusted not to sympathise with the repressed local population’.[2] Of course, in the Ukrainian case that population had the reputation of being especially anti-Semitic, further diminishing the potential sympathies of Jewish Chekists in dealing with it. [Citing
Leggett, The Cheka, Lenin’s Political Police, p. 263 (Oxford University Press, 1981).] . . . . Cheka personnel regarded themselves as a class apart
. . . with a power of life or death over lesser mortals. (Emphases added.)

Yuri Slezkine’s The Jewish Century, above, illustrates the attitude of Jewish Bolsheviks toward dying Ukrainians. See Kevin MacDonald’s review of Slezkine, entitled “Stalin’s Willing Executioners?”, www.vdare. com/ misc/051105 /macdonald _stalin.htm (a much fuller version of which appears in the Occidental Quarterly, fall 2005, also available online):

Lev Kopelev, a Jewish writer who witnessed and rationalized the Ukrainian famine in which millions died horrible deaths of starvation and disease as an “historical necessity,” is quoted [on p. 230 as] saying “You mustn’t give in to debilitating pity. We are the agents of historical necessity. We are fulfilling our revolutionary duty.” On the next page, Slezkine describes the life of the largely Jewish elite in Moscow and Leningrad where they attended the theater, sent their children to the best schools, [and] had peasant women (whose families were often the victims of mass murder) for nannies. . . .

Kopelev did not offer his opinions from a distance. In his words, “I saw women and children with distended bellies, turning blue, with vacant, lifeless eyes. And corpses. . . . I saw all this and did not go out of my mind or commit suicide. . . .” Moynahan, The Russian Century, above, p. 149. Moynahan, by the way, gives a high-end estimate of the death toll as “probably. . . 14 million.” Id. at 130.

(...)

Blogger Nate January 05, 2013 12:47 PM  

"...for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him.

Or,

...how can anyone enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house.

Good day."

Preach it darlin'

Anonymous A Visitor January 05, 2013 12:47 PM  

Call me crazy but maybe settlement of planets in our solar system could be the beginning/continuation of Western civilization in the years to come.

Anonymous CMC January 05, 2013 12:51 PM  

Yes, the 'future is in our hands' line was a bit facile. But I also found his phrasing to be a little cute when he wrote about a Republican party being "dominated" by Neocons and the Dem party being "influenced heavily" by Wilsonianism while "yet public-opinion surveys show that the American people harbor strong reservations about such interventionist vigor...." Seems to me that phrasing subtly and suggestively overstates the situation in favor of the elites by comparing the apples of domination and influence (money, power, etc.) to the oranges of opinion polls (numbers of voters).

Anonymous antonym January 05, 2013 1:05 PM  

To expand on the bit about Israel's finances: Israel's total debt levels are very low for a developed economy, something like 125% of GDP. Worldwide economic depressions obviously cast a long shadow, but Israel in particular seems likely to fare much better than other advanced nations.

Blogger WATYF January 05, 2013 1:22 PM  

Philalethes, I was about to post a similar comment comparing this to The Fate of Empires. They seem to draw conclusions along the same vein.

I host a copy of the pdf (due to the aforementioned stinginess on the part of Glubb's heirs), in case anyone is interested in reading it.

http://www.musicalnerdery.com/files/temp/tfoe.pdf

WATYF

Blogger joetexx January 05, 2013 1:24 PM  

http://people.uncw.edu/kozloffm/glubb.pdf

This is a link to the Fate of Empires pdf, 26 pages long.

I am not certain this is the complete version

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 05, 2013 1:30 PM  

Vox,

If you're still reading this thread, I just sent you an e-mail to your Gmail address on something that might interest you...

Anonymous CrisisEraDynamo January 05, 2013 1:37 PM  

Now, about those artificial wombs I mentioned upthread...anyone willing to take me on?

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 05, 2013 1:38 PM  

Scoobius,

But keep those tears flowing, Jews. They serve their purpose, don't they.

Personally, I hate that so many Jews and Israelis always bring up anti-Semitism and the Holocaust. In fact, whenever a world leader visits Israel here, one of the first things the prime minister or president does is to give him a tour of the Holocaust Museum in Jerusalem.

And I hate that. The underlying premise of such an action is basically one, gigantic guilt-trip. As someone who works in marketing in his day job, I'd much rather be known for something positive rather than something negative.

If I had my way (speaking realistically and pragmatically):

1. Forget about the Holocaust and the past. With each generation, the Holocaust is increasing less relevant to people throughout the world. It's a losing bet.

2. Bring up the topic when necessary (to demonstrate the inherent hatred of Jews that has always existed), but focus on the positive.

3. Show the world the ways that Israel benefits the world. Bring up how we made the desert bloom and how we could help other Middle Eastern countries to do the same -- if only they would make peace and let us. Showcase how Tel Aviv is the Silicon Valley of the Middle East and how our technologies are present in the computer you are using right now and how our high-tech, bio-tech, and clean-tech sectors benefit the world.

I could go on, but I think people get the point. Whining about anti-Semitism is so a trademark of the "galut" (exile). Israel needs to show the world that we are strong, confident, and successful in our own country and land now.

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 05, 2013 1:43 PM  

OK, everyone. Thanks for the interesting discussion. I'm taking a break from Internet commenting and going to watch the new episode of the Israeli version of "The Voice" that's starting in fifteen minutes. I'll check back here tomorrow.

Cheesy, yes. But everyone needs time to relax and decompress once in a while and not think of serious things. :)

Anonymous Jack Amok January 05, 2013 1:46 PM  

As "Spengler" (David Goldman) notes in his columns at the Asia Times...

Just to be clear, David Goldman is not the author of the work Vox references in the original post. Goldman writes under the pen-name "Spengler" out of some apreciation for the works of Osvald Spengler, but they are two different men.

Further, Goldman's writing tend to point out the weakness of tribal politics. In the end, tribes die, and the threat of one's tribe passing away can cause people to do very nasty things, because in the pre- (and post-) Christian world, immortality is only available through the continued memories of one's tribe. So tribal death is the denial of immortality, which is something nearly all men desire.

Goldman suggests Christianity, by offering a personal route to immortality, offers an escape from tribalism and the bitter struggles it encourages.

Since we were arguing about tribes and all that...

Anonymous Hood January 05, 2013 1:57 PM  

Now that I think more about it, I think that Jewish/Israeli civilization might be one of the few (or even the only) that does not fit into Spengler's paradigm.


Spengler, by contrast, embraced a view of history as the story of various discrete civilizations, each with its own distinct culture, that emerged, developed, flowered and then declined.

Seems basic to me.. emerging, developed, or declining?

Blogger Shimshon January 05, 2013 1:57 PM  

I would not say Israel (the state) is a distinct civilization in the way the the others are. It's very clearly a spin-off of Western thought with some Jewish flavor added.

However, I would say that ancient Israel did indeed comprise a distinct civilization. I am going to avoid getting into my opinion of the Jewish people and its relation to the state of Israel today.

Anonymous Full Fledged Fiasco January 05, 2013 2:01 PM  

"The causes of anti-Semitism are indeed very complex"

Bernard Lazare's opinion:

"Wherever the Jews settled after ceasing to be a nation ready to defend its liberty and independence, one observes the development of antisemitism, or rather anti-Judaism; for antisemitism is an ill chosen word, which has its raison d’etre only in our day, when it is sought to broaden this strife between the Jew and the Christians by supplying it with a philosophy and a metaphysical, rather than a material reason. If this hostility, this repugnance had been shown towards the Jews at one time or in one country only, it would be easy to account for the local causes of this sentiment. But this race has been the object of hatred with all the nations amidst whom it ever settled. Inasmuch as the enemies of the Jews belonged to divers races, as they dwelled far apart from one another, were ruled by different laws and governed by opposite principles; as they had not the same customs and differed in spirit from one another, so that they could not possibly judge alike of any subject, it must needs be that the general causes of antisemitism have always resided in Israel itself, and not in those who antagonized it."

Antisemitism: Its History and Causes, The International Library Publishing Co., 1903.

Anonymous Jack Amok January 05, 2013 2:06 PM  

For my part, I have no hatred or even mild dislike for individuals because of any involuntary membership they may have in any particular group - race included. I am willing to treat each and every person I meed as an individual.

Provided they are willing to act like one.

Cappy Cap (Captian Capitalism) has a post up about why people hate feminism, and the #1 reason is that feminism is a profoundly selfish movement. Feminists don't give a damn about the consequences of their actions on other people. They want what they want and the hell with anyone else. Solipsism as a political movement. Groupism for bitter women.

I hate groupism. Groupism is you and him getting together to screw me over. It's the refuge of the parasite, unable to produce value as an individual so needing to band together to hide among the masses. Tribalism is just another form of groupism.

People who engage in groupism earn a lot of animosity. Other groups hate you because you're their rival. Individuals distrust you because you're a threat. And probably more than a few people in your own group dislike you too, since backstabbing and sharp elbows are the way to position within the group, and position within the group is the path to wealth.

Anonymous Sleepy January 05, 2013 2:08 PM  

Just something to cheer everyone up.

After reading some of the NT, it would seem that the saints view of death was one of happy anticipation. Not so much that they actively sought it, but to the point where leaving the world was a tantalizing prospect.

So, even in the very worst case scenarios where Big Brother blows people's brains out, take heart. Death, with God's grace, might be fun. Plus, according to the Screwtape Letters, death by gun is not a bad way to go. Not as good as drowning, but close.

Anonymous Rantor January 05, 2013 2:37 PM  

@ Sam,

To relax, I recommend driving like a madman, much better than watching television...

Anonymous Loki of Asgard January 05, 2013 3:17 PM  

Call me crazy but maybe settlement of planets in our solar system could be the beginning/continuation of Western civilization in the years to come.

You are crazy. Next request?

Now, about those artificial wombs I mentioned upthread...

I understand those are best made with the hides of pink unicorns, but perhaps once you get the replicators on your death-star stations operating at full capacity...

Blogger James Dixon January 05, 2013 3:26 PM  

> The causes of anti-Semitism are indeed very complex...

You know Samuel, I really appreciate your comments here. You provide a unique and valuable perspective. But when I read that, the only response that comes to mind is this one:

http://www.motifake.com/acceptance-loss-demotivational-posters-46929.html

Please think about it, and realize that it isn't directed at you personally.

Anonymous rubberducky January 05, 2013 4:01 PM  

Fyodor Dostoyevsky saw it all coming before Oswald Spengler was born. I suppose his advice to those asking, "What do we do?" would be this: concentrate on strengthening your family. It's going to be a long haul.

Anonymous Stilicho January 05, 2013 4:03 PM  

As for how one should respond... I cannot tell you that. I can tell you what I am going to do. I am leaving. I do not love america enough to fight for it.

So much for Round 2.

I will choose one that doesn't have the means to enforce that will. I will find some poor second world country that can't afford drones and high tech military enforcers... and I will make a life for my own self

Low tech methods have been used quite effectively as well. It's usually a matter of willingness to use whatever force is needed, with brutality replacing technology. Good luck.

Anonymous Orville January 05, 2013 4:09 PM  

Mr. Pea says. "Meh. I'm currently of the opinion that I should submit to the rapist (powers) that G-d set over me and my family who is sodomizing my wife, daughter, and son."

And.Nate.Says.I.Misinterpret.The.Bible.

So to Mr. Pea I say that a run of the mill rapist is not the same thing as a political ruler, though I concede some do the same activity (Bill Clinton). Plus your quote of Matthew 12 regarding "binding the strong man to spoil his house" is totally out of context to the idea of submitting to governments.

And to Nate, I say put up or shut up. If you are up to it we can both take an exegetical approach to Romans 13 and related incidents in the Bible such as Daniel,and his com padres Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah, Nehemiah, Jesus on tax authority, etc. Not dribs and drabs spread across comments.

Anonymous Van January 05, 2013 4:37 PM  

Legitimate question: how does one logically square the belief that Jews are, by their nature, evil/parasitic/destructive/whatever with Christianity seemingly being rooted in Judaism?

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis January 05, 2013 4:37 PM  

Agree with this 100%. Spengler didn't need decades of observational evidence that we benefit from today, he could look two thousands years to ancient Rome for examples.

Anonymous Loki of Asgard January 05, 2013 4:58 PM  

Legitimate question: how does one logically square the belief that Jews are, by their nature, evil/parasitic/destructive/whatever with Christianity seemingly being rooted in Judaism?

I believe Wheeler would say, "Judaism? This is not Judaism! THIS IS SPARTA!"

Now, should he not materialise, the requirement for this thread is fulfilled nonetheless.

Anonymous Van January 05, 2013 5:17 PM  

I'm not familiar w/ this Wheeler character, although he is referenced often. I don't want to divert the thread - links would be welcome

Anonymous The Gentile Truth January 05, 2013 5:24 PM  

"The causes of anti-Semitism are indeed very complex..."

No they aren't. They can be summed up in a single paragraph.

Jews believe to the core of their being they will be the last tribe standing in God's creation. They believe also that the Goyim (Gentiles) are the enemy - to be destroyed, enslaved and plundered in perpetuity. Further, they believe the Gentile should know that nothing they themselves can do except becoming a Jew themselves will ever change their destiny. Whether or not this turns out to be correct - which it well may, given that "plundering" also includes their genetic products (eugenics) - the license this gives the Jews is limited only by God's displeasure (which their Scriptures determine is destruction). They believe, with utter intractability, that they are superior to the Gentile and that the Gentile will always hate them for it. In other words, the Jews themselves are the cause of Anti-Semitism.

Blogger Nate January 05, 2013 5:32 PM  

"I'm not familiar w/ this Wheeler character, although he is referenced often. I don't want to divert the thread - links would be welcome"

W. Lydsay Wheeler.

He's a jackwagon that comments here regularly. He seeks desperately to redirect every thread to his favorite topic... spartan sodomy.

Blogger Nate January 05, 2013 5:37 PM  

"
And to Nate, I say put up or shut up. If you are up to it we can both take an exegetical approach to Romans 13 and related incidents in the Bible such as Daniel,and his com padres Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah, Nehemiah, Jesus on tax authority, etc. Not dribs and drabs spread across comments."

Do you have ANY idea how many times that debate has been had here? I'm sorry you missed them. You're wrong. Educating you is of little interest to me... and generally speaking... its my experience that there is no curing someone that believes what you believe... because they do not believe it intellectually. They believe it emotionally because it comforts them appealing to their cowardice.

Anonymous Loki of Asgard January 05, 2013 5:40 PM  

He's a jackwagon that comments here regularly. He seeks desperately to redirect every thread to his favorite topic... spartan sodomy.

And yet I hear no gratitude for my having made his inevitable contribution redundant.

It is burdensome, my lot in life, forever to be doing thankless services and then to be reviled.

Blogger Nate January 05, 2013 5:50 PM  

"And yet I hear no gratitude for my having made his inevitable contribution redundant."

Sadly. For you see... redundancy has never been enough to ward off the imbecile.

Blogger WATYF January 05, 2013 5:51 PM  

its my experience that there is no curing someone that believes what you believe... because they do not believe it intellectually. They believe it emotionally

Oh, the irony. :^D

WATYF

Blogger Nate January 05, 2013 6:13 PM  

WATYF

if you agreed with me... I would reconsider my position.

Anonymous The other skeptic January 05, 2013 6:21 PM  

I have a suspicion that Obama will come to be regarded as Satan by the consultants.

Anonymous Orville January 05, 2013 6:22 PM  

Do you have ANY idea how many times that debate has been had here? I'm sorry you missed them. You're wrong. Educating you is of little interest to me... and generally speaking... its my experience that there is no curing someone that believes what you believe... because they do not believe it intellectually. They believe it emotionally because it comforts them appealing to their cowardice.

Educating you, or converting you to my point of view is of no interest to me either. I come to this blog because of the exposure to different points of view.

I've been here for at least 5 years. Since I can't seem to find a search function for old comments, and don't recall you making any serious exegetical argument, I'll give you the benefit of doubt. Just point me to that one post where you made your best argument.

Believing what I believe on Romans 13 is based in intellect, not emotion. It is actually uncomfortable to hold that position. But if you want to get all emo and call me names and stuff, then have at it. Just know that I don't take anything you say seriously.

Blogger WATYF January 05, 2013 6:23 PM  

if you agreed with me... I would reconsider my position.

Just another great example of your terrible approach to logic and knowledge.

If you agreed with me, it wouldn't factor in at all to my conclusions because they would already be based on dispassionate and objective study of the evidence and sound logic.

WATYF

Anonymous The other skeptic January 05, 2013 6:26 PM  

Has anyone seen the Brady Campaign Rape vs Murder comparison on twitter yet?

Blogger Nate January 05, 2013 6:28 PM  

"If you agreed with me, it wouldn't factor in at all to my conclusions because they would already be based on dispassionate and objective study of the evidence and sound logic."

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Anonymous Johnycomelately January 05, 2013 6:31 PM  

I am not well versed in sociology but there seems to be a category of people that sets itself apart from the host population via some special exceptionalism, whether it be bloodline (Jews, Gypsies, European nobility, Hindu castes), adherence to revelatory truth (Catholics, Mormons, Muslims, communists) or financial standing (bankers, corporate elite, politicians).

This exceptionalism seems to permit this exceptional class to abrogate its moral behaviour towards the host class for the material betterment of the special class, which is probably why the European nobility worked hand in glove with the Jews.

I wonder if this is an evolutionary adaptation, corporate psychopathy or the natural consequence of hierarchicies.

Anonymous Full Fledged Fiasco January 05, 2013 6:34 PM  

"The causes of anti-Semitism are indeed very complex -- it's why I used the passive voice.

It's different in every case. Nutshell: Sometimes it's fueled by religion ("They killed Jesus!"), sometimes it's ethnic ("Kill the inferior races!"), sometimes it's political ("We hate Israel!), and so on. There is not a single cause that can be named that unites all of the expulsions and pogroms and killings over the centuries in Europe."

Everyone on this thread should read this post.

Anonymous Loki of Asgard January 05, 2013 6:47 PM  

Has anyone seen the Brady Campaign Rape vs Murder comparison on twitter yet?

And they call me evil.

Blogger Nate January 05, 2013 7:24 PM  

"And they call me evil."

That has to be fake right? I have a hard time believing they would be THAT stupid.

Blogger Nate January 05, 2013 7:32 PM  

"Just point me to that one post where you made your best argument. "

Unfortunately as you can see... the comment sections have all been deleted.

Your claims to have been reading here that long fall on deaf ears. Those debates literally went on for days on several different posts. And regardless it would be profoundly off topic here.

Anonymous realmatt January 05, 2013 7:42 PM  

Wheeler is the real life version of Ignatius J. Reilly from "A Confederacy of Dunces". There's no doubt in my mind he wears a cape and beret and has a 1000000000 page behemoth sitting on his desk. He loves Ancient Greece and Rome and believes Roman Catholicism is to blame for many of this country's ills.

I hope I'm wrong about one of those claims just so it brings him out of the woodwork.

Anonymous The other skeptic January 05, 2013 7:52 PM  

Nate said:

That has to be fake right?

Assuming you are referring to the alleged Brady Campaign Graphic, I assume that it is Fake but Accurate. [1]

That is, it is fake, but accurately represents the Brady Campaign's, and indeed, the progressive, mindset.

Deliberate use of the term once applied to a document supplied by one flake about another flake.

Anonymous realmatt January 05, 2013 7:52 PM  

Sorry to be off-topic twice in a row but Vox I just read the poem you wrote for Bane, and it's one of the best I've ever read. I am not a fan of rhyming but the last 2 stanzas especially are great. I though you could have ended it with the first to last, but the smile on my face after reading the last line proved me wrong.

Bane, If you're in Hell, I hope it's to exact terrible justice and vengeance, O Saint of Killers.

Anonymous The other skeptic January 05, 2013 7:59 PM  

I am not a fan of rhyming but the last 2 stanzas especially are great.

Then you will fail to appreciate the Bard, or indeed William Blake or indeed Rudyard Kipling

Note that Gunga Din is pronounced Gunga Deen by Indians. Kipling knew that (as he was born there) and the poem depends on that.

Anonymous realmatt January 05, 2013 8:02 PM  

But I've personally met many American Jews (especially twenty-something ones) who, like myself years ago, have moved to Israel because life is better here. There are jobs and universal health-care and government-mandated pensions. They become dual citizens, and a few hard-core Zionist ones even give up their U.S. citizenship.

What kind of Jews are they? I don't know how many of you know, but in the Orthodox communities, the vast majority of them collect welfare and are on medicare. They pay ZERO income tax because they become rabbis when they're of age, their sources of income are top-secret and they'll go to the doctor for a band-aid and some neosporin just to avoid paying for it.

Anonymous Orville January 05, 2013 8:18 PM  

Nate are you a tard, or just drinking too much of your moonshine?

Your claims to have been reading here that long fall on deaf ears. Those debates literally went on for days on several different posts. And regardless it would be profoundly off topic here.

This post is on the decline of western civilization, and the US in particular falling into some form of imperial tyranny, and you say that the topic of civil disobedience is off topic?

Anonymous Drive-by Pedant January 05, 2013 8:49 PM  

"Note that Gunga Din is pronounced Gunga Deen by Indians. Kipling knew that"

The name is interestingly well chosen by Kipling. "Gunga" in the indigenous parlance is the River Ganges, the sacred river of the Hindus, and thus a metonym for Hinduism. "Din" or "deen" is the Arabic word for religion or faith, meaning (to them) Islam itself, and is thus a metonym for Islam. So the name Gunga Din is a merging of the two great cultural forces shaping the subcontinent. In other words, "Gunga Din" is India herself.

Blogger Nate January 05, 2013 8:59 PM  

"This post is on the decline of western civilization, and the US in particular falling into some form of imperial tyranny, and you say that the topic of civil disobedience is off topic?"

The religious debate is unrelated. Yes.

Anonymous PJ ORourke January 05, 2013 9:02 PM  

the name Gunga Din is a merging of the two great cultural forces shaping the subcontinent.

'Sub-' is no idle prefix in its application to this continent.

Anonymous The other skeptic January 05, 2013 9:23 PM  

'Sub-' is no idle prefix in its application to this continent.

Possibly.

As a young person of Anglo-Saxon origin (although some of my ancestors are from Wales) who went through a cyclone, I observed individuals of Mediterranean provenance attempting to steal things from a mall. I would never have thought to do so, perhaps betraying my Anglo-Saxon genes.

It is clear, of course, that Kipling's poem is about British prejudice against Indians, and I have met many Indians, some good, some completely worthless ... and some who might have deserved the claim "you are a better man than I am Gunga Din," however, I don't think you can apply the epithet "Sub" to all of them, and, indeed, the legacy of the British occupation might be their biggest problem and it is probably a result of their experience in the colonies.

Anonymous Mr. Pea January 05, 2013 11:08 PM  

Orville says: So to Mr. Pea I say that a run of the mill rapist is not the same thing as a political ruler, though I concede some do the same activity (Bill Clinton). Plus your quote of Matthew 12 regarding "binding the strong man to spoil his house" is totally out of context to the idea of submitting to governments.

Really? So when government goons come crashing through your door, it is your duty to watch your wife, daughters, and sons sodomized?

And let's see here: When the government goons enters the strong man's house to carry off his possessions... like wife, daughters, and sons... it is his duty to let them bind him... then sodomize his wife, daughters, and sons, before they carry them off.

Gotcha.

The government says...

Carry on Orville.

Resist Orville. Resist. Stop worshiping the Beast. You can do it Orville.

Anonymous Mr. Pea January 05, 2013 11:15 PM  

A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring. - Proverbs 25:26

Anonymous Orville January 05, 2013 11:38 PM  

Reading challenged Mr. Pea? Regardless of what you have to say about government goons breaking into your house and sodomizing your daughter (btw you certainly have a thing for rape and sodomy), the passage you quote has nothing to do with your fear of rape and sodomy.

Anonymous elmer January 06, 2013 1:08 AM  

As an indication of the decline of the West. Answer the following questions:

Why do we get better quality news from RT and PressTV? That is, the TRUTH! That, we can't fully get here in America, from some of the so-called best of the alternative media. When our sources of truth come via our so-called former enemies, when our own local sources refuse or neglect to provide same, then just whose is the enemy?

RT, also known as Russia Today, is an international multilingual Russian-based television network. It is registered as an Autonomous Non-profit Organization funded by the Federal budget of Russia through the Federal Agency on Press and Mass Communications of the Russian Federation.

Press TV is a 24-hour English language news network owned by the state-owned media corporation Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting (IRIB). Its headquarters are located in Tehran, Iran.

NeoCon Zionism - America's 5th Column
By Jim W. Dean

Jim W. Dean comes from an old military family dating back to the American Revolution. His father was a WWII P-40 and later P-51 Mustang fighter pilot. Jim's mother was a WWII widow at 16, her first husband killed with all 580 aboard when the SS Paul Hamilton, an ammunition ship with 7000 tons of explosives aboard, was torpedoed off the coast of Algiers. He has appeared on PBS most recently on the Looking for Lincoln documentary with Prof. Henry Lewis Gates and lectured at the Army Command and General Staff School at Fort Gordon. His current writing focus is on national security, intelligence, black and psyops, military/Intel history including personal video archives, and the current wars. Jim Dean is the managing editor of Veterans Today.

It is as though things have turned 180 degrees. Depardieu becomes a Russian citizen, and now enjoys 13% tax on his millions. It would seem that the American Dream, is to move to Russia, and start a business, or work for a good company in that region. I say for America to regain its status, as a true leader, needs to beat that 13%. How about 10%? How about -- 0%! And we can feed Feinstein et al to the wolves...

Blogger Shimshon January 06, 2013 1:21 AM  

@realmatt,

"I don't know how many of you know, but in the Orthodox communities, the vast majority of them collect welfare and are on medicare."

Seriously? The VAST MAJORITY? I do admit that there are entire communities that play fast and loose with legal niceties. Practically the entire community of New Square went solidly for Hillary for Senate in 2000. Even without knowing the details, there was obviously a payoff involved. But the vast majority? I think not.

Anonymous elmer January 06, 2013 2:27 AM  

RE: to my previous...

This is a most revealing exchange:

Proud American
Dec 24, 2012 5:23 AM

A very good synopsis of the root problems facing us in America now Mr. Dean. I would appreciate a future article on practical ideas we as a society can put in place to reverse this trend and try and save our country.


Proud American
12/24/2012 7:04:59 PM

Mr. Dean, thank you for all your work for us here in the states. I would like to ask that in the future could you or Veterans Today publish names of candidates to support? I think with the internet many people would financially help candidates with America's true interests at heart. Then maybe we can begin to take back our country.


Jim W. Deanin reply to Proud American
12/24/2012 1:01:27 PM

Proud, We are already doing it. Our alternative media strength is growing every day. And we are exposing how high up the corruption goes and it's international structure, which is all far away from the intended victims to reach. Where we are blocked now is getting criminal prosecutions on the real high up crooks. The effectively cannot be prosecuted now. We have talked quietly to the highest honest people here. No one knows what to do, not even Supreme Court justices. The crooks have their pilitical fixes in the political system. That is the sad news.


Two Americans here. One the author of the article, and a former combat veteran. Having a serious and critical exchange, about the future of their own native land, courtesy of the Islamic Republic of Iran! What is wrong here? Talk about "black is white, white is black." We are truly in the Twilight Zone...

Anonymous elmer January 06, 2013 3:34 AM  

And this is equally interesting, if not more revealing, being that it is apparently a conversation between a non-American (Muslim) and an American (the author of the article):

Muslim
Dec 23, 2012 6:37 PM

Jim, barring Iran, Lebanon and Syria, leadership in rest of the muslim world is pseudo-zionist. It bothers and cares about the security of its "CHAIR". It gives all those things to the masses which will not create threat to its "CHAIR". Most of the masses understand this leadership but don't dare to raise their head for two reasons. 1. Natural leaders are beheaded before reaching the masses. 2.Zionists provide deadly weapons to the pseudo-zionists to crush the fight for righteousness. At the moment not all of the literate muslim world is facing the kind of sufferings Egyptians or Tunisians have faced. Illiterate muslims(a majority among muslim masses) do not understand dynamics and social structure of the modern world. All this is working to the full advantage of Zionists and they are making full use of it. MUSLIM WORLD NEEDS MORE IMAM KHOMENIEs(RA)who will lead us to lead the life without losing our identity and yet being friends of Jims, Gordons, Shakespears. Surely the day will come.

Jim W. Deanin reply to Muslim
12/24/2012 1:54:30 AM

Muslim, The divide and conquer game is a very old one. The Middle East has always offered the fight over limited resources, but also religion and tribal affiliations. The outside enemy has often been used not only as a diversion, but a uniter. And it seems to work very well on the well educated. The Israeli elites play their people like an fiddle. It's a very tough thing to overcome. But the good news is that without an Internet we would have no chance at all.


I just learned something, from the mind of an educated Muslim. A non-westerner. One wonders if Saladin [1] and Richard I had similar conversations/correspondence, that is not recorded (or available) in written history...



-----------
[1] One interesting note. Ṣalāḥ al-Dīn Yūsuf ibn Ayyūb was Kurdish.

Anonymous elmer January 06, 2013 4:52 AM  

@realmatt January 05, 2013 7:42 PM

How does one start here?

...believes Roman Catholicism is to blame for many of this country's ills.

This is the FACT of the matter. Begin by going here, and read the Fleming post. Then get the book he cites, and read the Foreword by Shannan. The Fleming post is the second Foreword, and probably the only one you will ever witness by an author's literary agent.

We say we are a democracy. No, say others, we are a republic. Here is the unmitigated truth. America is the very first, [and hopefully] the very last Febronian, Bellarminian democratic republican
Church-State.


Now, for one to believe or disbelieve such a notion. There is no option. Especially when the evidence stares one in the face, every single day of his life. Sooner or later, one will come to this realization.

Now on the subject of Jewry. I recommend one read this entire dialog. It is most educational. Do pay special attention to the subject of Jewry, when it is discussed. Now we see and comprehend the relation? This puts my previous, in this thread, in even tighter focus...



-----------
* The very current proof of the matter, I believe, is Exo-Vaticana. Mesh that in context with the Third Force. Now we are getting somewhere.

Anonymous Fie January 06, 2013 8:37 AM  

the legacy of the British occupation might be their biggest problem

Oh fie. India would not even exist if not for the British. They would be a geographic expression for a collection of hundreds of statelets, not a united nation.

Anonymous cherub's revenge January 06, 2013 12:21 PM  

Samuel Scott: Nutshell: Sometimes it's fueled by religion ("They killed Jesus!"), sometimes it's ethnic ("Kill the inferior races!"), sometimes it's political ("We hate Israel!), and so on. There is not a single cause that can be named that unites all of the expulsions and pogroms and killings over the centuries in Europe.

Of course you couldn't seem to list any where Jewish behavior was the impetus.

Anonymous cherub's revenge January 06, 2013 12:27 PM  

Samuel: For most of European history, most Jews were poor.

The only way for Jews to survive was to loan money at interest since the Catholic Church had forbidden Christians from doing so.

I haven't really studied European history since college...

Of course you really haven't studied it at all. All you know or claim to know is a "just so" self-contradicting Jewish narrative, where the Jew is always a victim.

"The Jew cries out in pain while he's kicking you" - some long dead Slav.

Anonymous Emperor of Icecream January 07, 2013 12:39 AM  

Spengler wasn't an anti-Semite, especially not a crude anti-Semite of the kind in the comments here. What he believed is that the Jews were a Magian people and that much of the Western hatred for the Jews living among them was because the Jews were Civilized whereas Westerners were still partly Cultured.

Myself, I'm an admired of Israel because its the last Western settler state.

Post a Comment

NO ANONYMOUS COMMENTS. Anonymous comments will be deleted.

Links to this post:

Create a Link

<< Home

Newer Posts Older Posts