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Wednesday, January 30, 2013

Triple-dip

Not that the BEA figures actually matter any more than any other fiction being published these days, but now that Obama has been safely re-elected, the economic bad news can be released again:
A stunner out of the BEA which just reported a Q4 GDP of -0.1% that was leaps and bounds below the 1.1% estimate, and a plunge from Q3's 3.1%. The factors: Private Inventories, Exports and Government Expenditures all of which contracted, by -1.27%, -0.81%, and -1.33%. The silver lining was in Personal Consumption Expenditures which added 1.52% to the negative print, most of it however driven by a surge in spending ahead of the fiscal cliff. Ironically, this was the biggest government-driven detraction from growth since Q1 2011, when GDP led to a -1.49% cut in the GDP, same in Q4 when government spending on defense fell the most since 1972. The solution is simple: print moar drones. Enter Mali. And since everything is now AMZN-ing, we can't wait for the spin that the GDP's margins were actually better than expected, leading to a 200 point surge in the DJIA.
How many recessionary dips will it take before the mainstream financial media admits that we've been in a depression since 2008?  My guess is five.

Labels:

73 Comments:

Blogger Giraffe January 30, 2013 3:09 PM  

My guess is five.

I'm guessing more. Unless by some miracle a Republican is elected president. Then the depression will start on the date of his inauguration.

Anonymous RINO January 30, 2013 3:14 PM  

Are there any estimates out there regarding what the GDP "growth" numbers would be if the government wasn't running record deficits?

Anonymous Lysander Spooner January 30, 2013 3:16 PM  

From the WarStreetJournal: Analysis: GDP Contraction No Reason to Panic.

LMAO

Send in the clowns.

Anonymous Cryan Ryan January 30, 2013 3:21 PM  

There once was an economist who said,
I will put all my trust in the Fed,
As long as they keep printing money,
It will be all milk and honey,
But he had a big tumor in his head.

Anonymous JartStar January 30, 2013 3:22 PM  

@RINO

I think that the Market Ticker had a chart going like that.

--------------

It is almost inevitable that we will see a decline in GDP as there's good evidence that markets correlate in downturns (thanks Europe!). Other the other hand they do not during bull markets.

Anonymous Mina January 30, 2013 3:28 PM  

"How many recessionary dips will it take before the mainstream financial media admits that we've been in a depression since 2008?"

Never, they will never admit to it. Maybe 10-15-20 years from now as a "how did we miss it?" hindsight thing.

Anonymous Thales January 30, 2013 3:33 PM  

"The private sector is doing fine!"

Anonymous DT January 30, 2013 3:39 PM  

"Economy sucks...Democrats blame Republicans."

What else is new?

Anonymous Noah B. January 30, 2013 3:43 PM  

Just think of what the GDP numbers would look like if people hadn't been buying guns and ammo by the pallet.

Blogger Amy Haines January 30, 2013 3:45 PM  

People still have food on their plates, clothes on their backs, heat, hot water, and the ability to buy cars and gasoline. No depression to be seen here!

My grandmother was born in 1928 and remembers the late years of the GD and having to scrimp and save every scrap and penny. She hunted pigeons with her brother on the streets of Newark to bring home dinner on many occasions. Some of the more famous images of the GD show people visibly miserable, downtrodden, unemployed, hungry, homeless, cold, and desperate.

In contrast, with this current depression, I don't see too many images of people in a similar state, at least on a grand scale. It's easy to not acknowledge it when no one seems to be suffering. I think it's a fear of the chaos that might ensue if someone actually reveals the emperor's dishabile.

Blogger Amy Haines January 30, 2013 3:47 PM  

Of course, now instead of bread lines and shelters there is WIC/SNAP and Section 8, HAMP, etc.

What was visible charity or gov't assistance in the '30s is now hidden in the EBT card way of paving over holes in the income.

Blogger Giraffe January 30, 2013 3:47 PM  

People still have food on their plates, clothes on their backs, heat, hot water, and the ability to buy cars and gasoline. No depression to be seen here!

How many will not have these things when the government is no longer able to provide them?

Anonymous Josh January 30, 2013 3:59 PM  

Are there any estimates out there regarding what the GDP "growth" numbers would be if the government wasn't running record deficits?

You'd probably see a contraction of 10-20%.

If not more.

Anonymous JartStar January 30, 2013 4:03 PM  

How many recessionary dips will it take before the mainstream financial media admits that we've been in a depression since 2008?

I think Ed Dolan counts as mainstream and while he hasn't admitted to the former he is about ready to call a new recession.

The bottom line: There is really very little good news in today’s GDP release. A month ago, when Washington was fixated on the drama of the fiscal cliff, economists were warning that a sudden dose of fiscal restraint could cause renewed recession in early 2013. If we take today’s data at face value, there is reason to worry that a recession may already have started. That is all the more reason to avoid administering a heavy dose of front-loaded fiscal consolidation during the next round of budget negotiations

Anonymous Anonymous January 30, 2013 4:05 PM  

Dont worry it will still be Bush's fault.

Blogger Joshua_D January 30, 2013 4:10 PM  

And we were so close to Dow 14,000!

Anonymous Lysander Spooner January 30, 2013 4:14 PM  

May 2013-End of the Road-John Williams

http://usawatchdog.com/may-2013-end-of-the-road-john-williams/

Anonymous Porky January 30, 2013 4:16 PM  

Who cares. My free Obama phone still works.

Anonymous A Visitor January 30, 2013 4:43 PM  

I'm guessing more. Unless by some miracle a Republican is elected president. Then the depression will start on the date of his inauguration. Lolz.

How dare you question Dear Leader's glorious BEA stats, Vox?!?

On a personal note, I remember I pissed off one of my prof's in grad school shooting holes through her and the BEA statistician's stats we had speak to us in medicine (that's what happens when you get a medical family, you learn things by qualitative reasoning; not saying quantitative doesn't have its place but in this case they were dead wrong).

I think I asked you this once before Vox and, to my knowledge, you never did answer. How many quarters with what % of negative growth make a depression? I ask because I remember learning in it high school and have since forgot. I just want a quick refresher, honest!

My grandmother was born in 1928 and remembers the late years of the GD and having to scrimp and save every scrap and penny. She hunted pigeons with her brother on the streets of Newark to bring home dinner on many occasions.

Just stop and reflect on that for a second: hunting pigeons on the streets of Newark. Were they using firearms or some other means? If the former, it's amazing to think how far our republic has slid in terms of individual rights (population increases in areas, aside (obviously, you don't want to accidentally grease somebody with bird shot)).

My grandpa remembers playing in pigeon milk (a mixture of industrial bi-products dumped from factories into rivers during the '20s) as a kid.

Anonymous A Visitor January 30, 2013 4:43 PM  

On medicine, not in.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis January 30, 2013 5:00 PM  

I know this post dosen't concern firearms, but I wanted to spread this news. A decorated combat vet faces prison in NY due the fact that he unknowingly carried AR magazines that were banned. This man is not David Gregory so I doubt the authorities would let him off. His brother has instituded a fundraising page for his defense, more details inside:
http://www.gofundme.com/1tkukc

Incidently the Sheriffs department is under investigation:
http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/article/20130130/NEWS07/701309850

The words 'Molon Labe' mean nothing if we don't stand by our fellow citizens. I have already donated, and if you have any money to spare I urge you to donate as well. Or will we let double standards prevail?

Anonymous Russell January 30, 2013 5:00 PM  

Hey, at least with Obama winning the last kabuki theater election, they can release numbers closer to the truth. Should provide hours of fun for those keep score at home.

Anonymous Zion's Paladin January 30, 2013 5:01 PM  

"How many recessionary dips will it take before the mainstream financial media admits that we've been in a depression since 2008?"

I'm going with lucky number seven. I have no basis for this, other than my gut.

Anonymous Salt January 30, 2013 5:08 PM  

The BEA should just say "We're in full recovery mode. To the rear, march!".

Anonymous 11B January 30, 2013 5:14 PM  

But the stock market is at or near record levels. It's all good.

Anonymous Gen. Kong January 30, 2013 5:19 PM  

OT but It just gets better and better. All you proles, zeks and helots ust hand in those guns and magazines, 'cause D'Won Mocha Messiah gonna take nice care of you.

BTW, it's encouraging to see the group Anonymous come out against Housenigga Hussein's gun-grab. Interesting times when you see folks such as Anonymous doing more for the 2nd amendment than the bulk of the Repubelickin' Party. I hope they hack all the regime's files - including plans for all the weapons - and make them available for free.

Anonymous Mina January 30, 2013 5:43 PM  

The only thing I didn't see in the Anonymous video was any sort of "if you do this ... we will respond by doing this"

They are a hacking org - and if they are as good as they say they are they could say exactly what they were going to hit and still no one could stop them.

Anonymous The other skeptic January 30, 2013 5:46 PM  

"The private sector is dying fine!"

There, fixed it for you.

Anonymous Vae Victus January 30, 2013 5:51 PM  

@ A Visitor:

How many quarters with what % of negative growth make a depression?

The NBER has a guideline that more than 2 consecutive quarters of negative GDP growth is a depression. Of course, we had 4 consecutive quarters of negative GDP growth from Q3 in 2008 to Q3 in 2009.

Don't bother looking up the numbers, as they changed...erm, 'adjusted' the GDP numbers in 2010.

Of course, they still won't call it a depression, just the 'Great Recession"...

Anonymous The other skeptic January 30, 2013 6:09 PM  

I expect that they will revise the numbers downward to -0.5% or more, and that Q1 will come in with negative growth as well.

The sale of firearms and ammo could well be the only bright point.

Anonymous A Visitor January 30, 2013 6:10 PM  

@Vae Victus

Thanks!

Anonymous The other skeptic January 30, 2013 6:39 PM  

OT, but why do those Massively Online Open Courses believe they should have female TAs? Their voices just grate!

Anonymous The other skeptic January 30, 2013 7:04 PM  

The state of the economy is going to lead to more home invasions by vibrant people, so don't give up your guns

Anonymous Lysander Spooner January 30, 2013 7:09 PM  

@ The other skeptic

Because it's like the NFL, teh wimminz must invade the man spaces, it is a feminist bot directive, teh wimminz, IOW, ruin everything. The fake man-voices that they come with are astonishingly annoying, but if ur smart turn on the am radio and turn the TV off, my Pops taught me that one.

Blogger hadley January 30, 2013 7:11 PM  

There. Fixed that:

"There was a big boffin who said,
I will put all my trust in the Fed,
If they keep printing money,
'Twill be milk and honey,
But he had a big lump in his head"

Anonymous The other skeptic January 30, 2013 7:13 PM  

@Lysander Spooner

Yeah. I think Abbie on NCIS should be eliminated from the show, but then so should Mark Harmon. It seems to be full of angst about who is teh most ghey.

Anonymous jack January 30, 2013 7:16 PM  

@Gen Kong
folks such as Anonymous doing more for the 2nd amendment than the bulk of the Repubelickin' Party. I hope they hack all the regime's files - including plans for all the weapons - and make them available for free.

Anyone heard anything more about the justice dept. hack and when/if Anon is going to release the encrypting keys? Just curious to know if the gov is or has planned to 'accommodate' Anon's demands.

Anonymous fish January 30, 2013 7:35 PM  

Ta’Vaun Fambrough, 19, was shot in the chest.

Fambrough was taken to Miami Valley Hospital where he later died.


Another young lad resembling our president gunned down in the prime of his life.

Anonymous aGent zen0 January 30, 2013 7:43 PM  

How many quarters with what % of negative growth make a depression? I ask because I remember learning in it high school and have since forgot.

You have been deemed to be suffering from False Memory Syndrome by the Office of the Psychiatrist Feral, Visitor. Report to a re-programming center near you. Depressions were outlawed decades ago. It was all just a silly misunderstanding.

Oh, and just to clarify, if you do not report to a re-programming center, your "food-stamp card" may not work anymore. Technical glitch, or something.

Anonymous DonReynolds January 30, 2013 8:00 PM  

Depression? How else would you describe a series of recessions separated by disappointing recoveries? Each sharp recession pulling the economy down to yet another flat plateau. The long sweep of such a series actually has a parallel in the 1930s.

Anonymous The other skeptic January 30, 2013 8:05 PM  

Don't buy a new car or make any major purchase. Only buy arms and ammmo and food, and where you can, subsist on home-grown food.

Starve the beast. Spread the word.

Anonymous The other skeptic January 30, 2013 8:06 PM  

Anyone heard anything more about the justice dept. hack and when/if Anon is going to release the encrypting keys? Just curious to know if the gov is or has planned to 'accommodate' Anon's demands.

Bread and circuses. Anon are pussies. If they had any balls they would have released the stuff already.

Blogger James Dixon January 30, 2013 8:11 PM  

>> How many quarters with what % of negative growth make a depression?

> The NBER has a guideline that more than 2 consecutive quarters of negative GDP growth is a depression.

That's the definition for a recession, not a depression. From Investopedia:

"The technical indicator of a recession is two consecutive quarters of negative economic growth as measured by a country's gross domestic product (GDP)"

AFAIK, the word depression doesn't have any such numerical definition. Investopedia doesn't list one, merely defining it as:

"A severe and prolonged recession characterized by inefficient economic productivity, high unemployment and falling price levels."

Anonymous DonReynolds January 30, 2013 8:12 PM  

A Visitor..."I think I asked you this once before Vox and, to my knowledge, you never did answer. How many quarters with what % of negative growth make a depression? I ask because I remember learning in it high school and have since forgot. I just want a quick refresher, honest!"

A 2 quarter decline in GDP is the accepted definition of a recession.....which cannot be known for certain until into the third quarter, when the stats for the second quarter are released. By then, the economy is 7 months or so into the recession, which normally last about 16 months.

There is no generally accepted definition for a depression. I accept the definition as a "series of recessions separated by disappointing recoveries." These have been few in number but tend to last a decade or more, during which there may be 3 to 5 separate recessions.

Blogger Amy Haines January 30, 2013 8:41 PM  

Just stop and reflect on that for a second: hunting pigeons on the streets of Newark. Were they using firearms or some other means?

Visitor, they would save stale bits of bread to feed the pigeons on the streets, and when a few came close enough, they'd make the grab. Real, real old school, that was. Learned it from their mother. My great-grandmother was the kindest, sweetest, toughest old Polish woman you'd ever want to meet. Her kids never starved.

Anonymous cheddarman January 30, 2013 8:45 PM  

Interesting that the worthless republican party are talking up immigration reform, even in a bad economy.

sincerely

cheddarman

Blogger LP 999/Eliza January 30, 2013 8:53 PM  

Ha, the empty talking heads are still saying the economy is getting better and everything is ok - these people HAVE jobs in media. It is too humorous for most viewer who are turning off the LIARS or willfully deceived.

Anonymous One View January 30, 2013 9:00 PM  

The Difference
So how can we tell the difference between a recession and a depression? A good rule of thumb for determining the difference between a recession and a depression is to look at the changes in GNP. A depression is any economic downturn where real GDP declines by more than 10 percent. A recession is an economic downturn that is less severe.
By this yardstick, the last depression in the United States was from May 1937 to June 1938, where real GDP declined by 18.2 percent. If we use this method then the Great Depression of the 1930s can be seen as two separate events: an incredibly severe depression lasting from August 1929 to March 1933 where real GDP declined by almost 33 percent, a period of recovery, then another less severe depression of 1937-38. The United States hasn’t had anything even close to a depression in the post-war period. The worst recession in the last 60 years was from November 1973 to March 1975, where real GDP fell by 4.9 percent. Countries such as Finland and Indonesia have suffered depressions in recent memory using this definition.

Anonymous dh January 30, 2013 9:11 PM  

Interesting that the worthless republican party are talking up immigration reform, even in a bad economy.

I will say as a liberal, I am interested in immigration reform for 3 reasons. The first being as a counterweight against the "self-deportation" crowd. It's a truly stupid policy. The second being that I do not think that children brought to the US illegally by a parent or relative should be punished for someone else's criminal act. Thirdly, for those already here, we are incurring the costs without receiving many of the relatively few benefits.

As far as future immigration policy, border policy, et all, lock that down.

Blogger JP January 30, 2013 9:17 PM  

Dear Vox:

Lee Adler sayz u r wrong.

Because u r watching the wrong data.

"Just so frustrating that anyone believes this GDP crap. Federal tax receipts could not have grown by 3.7% in a down economy. It's just not possible. I will be shocked... shocked! if this GDP number isn't revised to the plus side in the next two months revisions."

http://www.capitalstool.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=11861&page=5

Anonymous dh January 30, 2013 9:20 PM  

Are there any estimates out there regarding what the GDP "growth" numbers would be if the government wasn't running record deficits?You'd probably see a contraction of 10-20%. If not more.
The math is pretty easy, in round numbers (trillion). Basic formula is Government Spending + Private Sector Spending = GDP. A little bit more advanced version includes Government Spending is also equal to Tax Tax Income + New Debt. In this case, state/local governments are actually included in private sector spending, tax income and debt includes only the Federal government.

2.5T Total Tax Income + 1.4T New Debt + 12.1T private sector spending = 16T GDP (2012).

A 1.4T reduction in new debt - meaning we balanced the Federal budget, would be an immediate nominal 8.75% drop in GDP - from 16T to 14.6T.

Depending on your review of government spending and multipliers, more fall out is likely. Some government spending is pretty effective at generating more private sector spending, and that 1.4T reduction would yield some private sector losses that probably equate to another 50%-100% of the base amount (i.e. a 0.5 to 1.0 multiplier). Meaning, a further 0.7T to 1.4T reduction - down to maybe as low as 13.2T GDP. That's an immediate 17.5% drop in GDP likely within a year of a sudden balancing of the budget.

Anonymous Mike M. January 30, 2013 9:24 PM  

Dip? A dip implies things got better, then worse. We've been in the Democrat Depression for four years.

Anonymous zen0 January 30, 2013 9:31 PM  

The second being that I do not think that children brought to the US illegally by a parent or relative should be punished for someone else's criminal act.

You wouldn't want to separate them from their parents. That is so compassionate! Best send them all away together.

Why do you think children staying with their parents is punishment?

Anonymous The other skeptic January 30, 2013 9:54 PM  

The second being that I do not think that children brought to the US illegally by a parent or relative should be punished for someone else's criminal act.

Pour encourager les autres.

Anonymous Porky January 30, 2013 10:05 PM  

That's an immediate 17.5% drop in GDP likely within a year of a sudden balancing of the budget.

Oh dear. Better to keep using that credit card.

Anonymous Noah B. January 30, 2013 10:48 PM  

A GDP decrease of 10-20% would almost certainly be accompanied by a relatively large reduction in costs of fuel, energy, and other commodities. So it's not quite as bad as it sounds, as long as you're not in debt.

Anonymous Anonymous January 30, 2013 10:52 PM  

"Another young lad resembling our president gunned down in the prime of his life.'

One less parasitical spook.

- S. LeGree

Anonymous Unending Improvement January 30, 2013 11:00 PM  

dh,

Are you fine with all the mostly black youth losing their jobs to migrants willing to work sub-minimum wage?

Because immigration reform is not going to stop that, it will accelerate that.

But hey, putting more people on the dole is a boon for the Democratic party!

Anonymous Unending Improvement January 30, 2013 11:01 PM  

Anyways, Barry wins either way.

If he gets his amnesty, his party get's a new influx of voters. If he doesn't, he can shift all the blame to the GOP.

He cannot lose!

Anonymous dh January 30, 2013 11:07 PM  

You wouldn't want to separate them from their parents. That is so compassionate! Best send them all away together.

Why do you think children staying with their parents is punishment?


That's not the crime. A child is just as guilty of all the same crimes as the parent, but without the requisite intent to commit a crime.

I agree, if none are legal, send them all away at the same time.

Anonymous dh January 30, 2013 11:11 PM  

Are you fine with all the mostly black youth losing their jobs to migrants willing to work sub-minimum wage?

Because immigration reform is not going to stop that, it will accelerate that.

But hey, putting more people on the dole is a boon for the Democratic party!


Nope! Thats why I mentioned locking that down. If we ever get to a full employment scenario, we can talk about a guest worker program then. Or set it up now and trigger it based on U1 and U3. For the ones already here, doing the damage, we need to figure out what to do which isn't self deportation.

Illegal immigration has vastly distorted the low-end of the job scale, to the point where jobs that used to be solidly lower middle class are now minimum wage, and jobs that used to be minimum wage are under the table by illegals.

Anonymous The other skeptic January 30, 2013 11:22 PM  

Get your EBT

Anonymous 11B January 30, 2013 11:27 PM  

For the ones already here, doing the damage, we need to figure out what to do which isn't self deportation.

I don't understand why self deportation is such a bad thing. The only reason I can see why the open-border crowd doesn't like it is because it does work. You can always tell when a policy would be effective by the opponents' reactions.

The most effective policies on immigration are the ones fought tooth and nail by the open-borders crowd who claim they won't work. For example, e-verify seems to do a good job of preventing employers from hiring illegals. Yet the open-borders crowd doesn't support it. The virtual fence, which was a colossal waste of money, was supported while a real fence, like the one India is building along its Bangladeshi border, is not.

Self deportation seems like a rather peaceful policy to adopt. Basically it means cutting off the subsidies that bring and keep illegals here.

It's funny how this debate has progressed over the years. When I first started following this 20 years ago, the open borders crowd was blaming employers and citizens for hiring illegals and enticing them to come. Now that we are going after employers and trying to end the enticements, and thus promote self deportation, the opposition protests. I guess you cannot win.

Blogger Nate January 31, 2013 12:09 AM  

Its pretty bad when the Professional Illusionists Guild cannot even hide the decline.

Anonymous Roundtine January 31, 2013 12:28 AM  

How many recessionary dips will it take before the mainstream financial media admits that we've been in a depression since 2008?

How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll center of a Tootsie Pop?

Anonymous DonReynolds January 31, 2013 12:55 AM  

dh..."I will say as a liberal, I am interested in immigration reform for 3 reasons. The first being as a counterweight against the "self-deportation" crowd. It's a truly stupid policy. The second being that I do not think that children brought to the US illegally by a parent or relative should be punished for someone else's criminal act. Thirdly, for those already here, we are incurring the costs without receiving many of the relatively few benefits."

Many of us would be satisfied if the present laws were simply enforced, clearly that refusal is the reason the problem has only become larger. But if there must be "immigration reform", I am certain that the country would be divided yet again over what "reforms" are necessary. But ask yourself....if the current laws can be ignored for decades, why in hell would any new law be enforced? Not even talking about the difficulty of finding any majority for some of the proposed reforms, since when can we trust the executive branch to enforce any deal they make. Remember, we made a big deal back in 1986....one million illegals turned into four million amnesties and we got NONE of the promises made to get that filthy compromise accepted. For that reason, there can be no more deals, no more compromises, no more bull crap. Enforce the law.

Every one of these anchor babies are Mexican citizens if ONE or more parents are Mexican. They have a family and a country, no matter where they have lived or gone to school. Split up families? No one suggests it.

Self-deportation is the best outcome for everyone involved, without exception. We need enforcement (and proper encouragement) to make that happen. My offer is a Safe Conduct Pass for every illegal alien, good for 90 days. If they self-deport in the time allowed, they can take with them all of the property they have stolen in this country. Otherwise, they get a box lunch and bus ride to the border crossing. The smart ones will use their time wisely. The rest will have their property confiscated and sold at public auction to pay for better border enforcement AND INTERIOR ENFORCEMENT. Everyone plays by the rules and nobody gets hurt. Otherwise, they are on their own.

Anonymous Rantor January 31, 2013 6:20 AM  

I think Giraffe has it right, as long as we have a Democrat President, they will declare no depression, 8% unemployment will be OK, deficits won't matter, and higher taxes are needed (but wait, deficits don't matter??)

Should the Republicans come into the Presidency in 2017 it will be the worst depression ever that started under Bush and will destroy us all and force us to work at McJobs. Even if GDP growth is restored and unemployment sinks, it will still be the worst recovery ever.

That is just how it is in MSM lala land.

Anonymous Anonymous January 31, 2013 9:57 AM  

Deportation, and amnesty, won't happen for a simple reason. Then the corporations would have to pay the full tax burden on their workers.

Blogger James Dixon January 31, 2013 10:25 AM  

> That is just how it is in MSM lala land.

If we had a Republican as president, the unemployment would be being reported as the U6 level, not the U3 level; and all you would hear about was how the current low interest rates were killing seniors and others dependent on savings. Remember Bush's "jobless recovery"?

But with Obama in office, none of that matters. Even the fact that we've never had a recovery.

Anonymous Mina January 31, 2013 11:40 AM  

Any gun lovers here? Any truth to the rumor that possession of a rifle with no serial# is a Felony carrying a 10 year mandatory sentence?

Anonymous Mina January 31, 2013 11:42 AM  

"We've been in the Democrat Depression for four years."

If you really believe what is happening now is something that has been brewing for 4 years you are much too willing to eat what the Republican party is feeding you.

Research. Can't stress the need for research. Your viewpoint does nothing to help move us off dead zero and toward a solution.

Blogger Nate January 31, 2013 2:33 PM  

"? Any truth to the rumor that possession of a rifle with no serial# is a Felony carrying a 10 year mandatory sentence?"

False.

its a felony to remove the serial number. its not a felony to own a weapon that never had a serial number in the first place.

Anonymous Mina January 31, 2013 3:08 PM  

ok. thank you. your answer is timely.

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