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Thursday, February 28, 2013

Alpha Game: the female process

I thought these thoughts from Sarahsdaughter made for important reading for men and women alike:
I've come to understand that my first response is often times 1)emotional and irrational 2)based in fear (not truth) 3)not the same response I might have later after processing information 4)should not be verbalized until said processing of information is done.

We, as women understand and find no issue with the fact that we need to go through these processes in order to figure out what is true - even when it comes to our feelings. We want to talk it through. And then, we have a tendency to arrive at new conclusions without going back and apologizing for emotional outbursts that were based on wrong conclusions. 
Read the rest at Alpha Game.

Labels:

66 Comments:

Anonymous Mina February 28, 2013 3:28 PM  

I declare NAWALT - this definitely does not describe me.

It does however make me glad I am heterosexual and female. I couldn't stand having to live with something like that. My (female) kids are bad enough!



Anonymous Heh February 28, 2013 3:40 PM  

Say, baby, why don't you make me a sammich while you're wrestling with your emotions, processing information, and arriving at those new conclusions?

Anonymous James May February 28, 2013 3:43 PM  

This is wise and true.

Next time you see a lady bug on your arm, instead of screaming, flapping your arms like you think you're a Harrier jet and running straight into a wall, and finally digging your nails into my arm so hard I need stitches while screaming, "Please get it off!," instead, go into that peaceful place.

Observation is crucial. Is it a poisonous spider? Even if it is, ask yourself why a spider would suddenly bite what is essentially the floor unless you suddenly start doing jazz hands like Liza Minelli in "Cabaret."

Be still and think rather than screaming like a man in a hockey mask just woke you up or you answered your door at midnight and a clown's standing there with a butcher knife.

Worse case scenarios with insects involving death and horrible mutilation rarely play out that way so common sense based on the odds, for example realizing you don't need a helmet because of micro-meteorites that might penetrate into your brain, is essential. Unless of course you live in Australia where pretty much everything everywhere is extremely dangerous including the sky. Women there are completely justified in acting like women. And in India where cobras are practically covering the ground.

But not so much in the U.S. where the only things that'll really hurt you are like wolves and bears and you probably won't suddenly notice one is on your arm.

Any that's 1 through 4. Or maybe just never go outside.

Blogger SarahsDaughter February 28, 2013 4:04 PM  

That makes sense, Mina. You're an engineer...right? I'm pretty sure that's what you've said...repeatedly.

Anonymous Daniel February 28, 2013 4:16 PM  

I declare NAWALT - this definitely does not describe me.

It is notable that a woman would confirm solipsism in the very first post in an attempt to distance oneself from the emotional stereotype, an association (that Mina, specifically, is emotional and fear-based) that no reasonable person would have made in the first place.

Anonymous Dice February 28, 2013 4:18 PM  

I got yer feelings right here.

Blogger ray February 28, 2013 4:21 PM  

this definitely does not describe me.


this definitely does describe you, AWALT

1 and 2, ESPECIALLY when any female is presented with information that is not to her liking, or which does not lead to her aggrandizement or empowerment

1) respond irrationally, and usually dramtically (so everyone knows that She Is Upset!)

2) feed on her repto-limbic centers as primary informant of her opionion and reaction

3) seek nearest (male) authority to silence and punish the Offender


when females are presented with realities or truths they dont like, the first reaction of the majority is violence (tho often used passive agressively, so it can be denied)

heck i've had 'em rush at me, arms flailing, faces contorted in absolute rage, at mention of the merest fact that challenges their delusions

then they start scanning around to see if some nearby male will come to the aid of their evil

Anonymous dh February 28, 2013 4:28 PM  

We, as women understand and find no issue with the fact that we need to go through these processes in order to figure out what is true - even when it comes to our feelings.

It's really problematic to consider emotions as "true" or not.

Blogger IM2L844 February 28, 2013 4:32 PM  

I declare NAWALT

OSMR

Anonymous Mina February 28, 2013 4:33 PM  

ooop! a woman's feeeeeeliinnnnnggs got hurt. call in the tanks.

Blogger SarahsDaughter February 28, 2013 4:37 PM  

Projection, perhaps?

Blogger Lovekraft February 28, 2013 4:38 PM  

One person's opinion is just that, opinion, but is ripe for comment.

Today, you-go-girl attitudes (most of Hollywood's and Disney's females are snarky, full of attitude) tends to breed combativeness and general lack of respect for anything of true value in society.

The very fact time is spent discussing what should have been established in a female's late teens is a sad testimony to how upside-down attitudes are.

Blogger SarahsDaughter February 28, 2013 4:46 PM  

It's really problematic to consider emotions as "true" or not.

I struggle to explain it well. I don't mean emotions are Truth, I mean to say that a situation might conjure up the emotion of anger in me initially. However, once I've gone through this settling process, that same situation is neutral and doesn't conjure up any emotions. Does that make sense...ish?



Anonymous Mina February 28, 2013 4:52 PM  

Realizing this is totally off topic, but has anyone been watching New York State today? Estimates are over 10,000 attendees at a rally in the Capitol to protest the SAFE ACT gun control law that was pushed through their legislature only weeks after Newtown. There has been a live feed all day long and there is a lot of coverage.

Interestingly, the politicians decided to come to work early so that they could clock out early and get out of dodge before the protesters arrived. Cuomo himself was in Staten Island and weighed in remotely to say he was "proud" of his bill.

A great day for 2nd Amendment supporters. If you haven't checked any of the coverage / videos / Facebook groups - it's really something.

Anonymous OCS February 28, 2013 4:57 PM  

This is the framework that best suits the understanding of Ms. Teen Delaware and that porn video. She implicitly admits it if you just read her Twitter and have a decent capacity for connecting the proverbial dots.

One of her tweets went something along the lines of, "What's past is past. People should just accept what happened and move on". Typical little female rationale to distance herself from social consequences. It'll probably be the exact same reasoning she'll put over her future husband when he finds out his hottie is getting ripped apart as seen through crappy camera angles.

Sorry cutie, your past does not merely disappear and stop being contiguous with your being simply because you don't like other people thinking you're a slut.

Call me though.

Anonymous dh February 28, 2013 4:58 PM  

Today, you-go-girl attitudes (most of Hollywood's and Disney's females are snarky, full of attitude) tends to breed combativeness and general lack of respect for anything of true value in society.

Hey, I don't know. I took my kids to see Brave, and was pleasantly surprised at how the main female character was disabused of her anti-tradition ways and roundly came back into the family fold. She was reconciled to her family and traditions.

The only substantial downside was that they portrayed the father as something of a barbarian who should have been an alpha but was decidedly not.

Anonymous Mina February 28, 2013 4:59 PM  

New York State SAFE Act protest rally - best link to everything all concatenated together:

Albany Watch

http://statepolitics.lohudblogs.com/

Anonymous dh February 28, 2013 4:59 PM  

Does that make sense...ish?

Sure-ish.

Anonymous OCS February 28, 2013 5:05 PM  

Hey, I don't know. I took my kids to see Brave, and was pleasantly surprised at how the main female character was disabused of her anti-tradition ways and roundly came back into the family fold. She was reconciled to her family and traditions.

I thought the way the main character and her mother had to tackle their problems was rather interesting. The rebellious and adventuresome child had to learn to use diplomatic means to solve problems, and the fair-lady-mother-turned-bear had to use brute strength for what she had to face.

The only substantial downside was that they portrayed the father as something of a barbarian who should have been an alpha but was decidedly not.

Not just the father, but a lot of the males in the movie, if not all of them, were portrayed as stupid. The archery contest thing comes to mind.

It would have been nice to see the movie go more the route of, "princess finds out what it means to take on masculine tasks and roles rather than just emulating the superficial urge to rebel and size up against her male peers".

Anonymous Curlytop February 28, 2013 5:17 PM  

Lovekratft: "The very fact time is spent discussing what should have been established in a female's late teens is a sad testimony to how upside-down attitudes are."

Soooo very true. It was my mother who instilled in us girls that men did NOT pay one wit of attention to your histrionics, but your actions.

Second: I'm always suspect of any woman who denies these traits are present in herself. Typically, these women have been the biggest offenders of what Sarah'sDaughter is discussing. I DO think women who recognize 1, 2, &3 are able to sharpen their skill at getting to #4 a lot sooner. Being around females who haven't is very, very tiring, which is why I frequently thank my Husband for his patience and grace at times.

Anonymous Curlytop February 28, 2013 5:21 PM  

@OCS

I concur with your impressions of Brave. Even with its somewhat good points, the portrayal of brutish, dopey, child-like men was nauseating.

Anonymous Azimus February 28, 2013 5:24 PM  

SarahsDaughter: ''3)not the same response I might have later after processing information''

With the increase of women in the work force, the statutory money funnel from men to mothers in cases of divorce, the elevation of "education" credentials over experience in the professional world (which favors women), and many other societal structures pushing more and the the purchasing power of the economy to women, I almost wonder if Sarah's point #3 has something to do with that. It is much easier to make money off an impulse buyer, after all.

For example, I am convinced that the purchasing power of women is almost 100% responsible for the rise, the terrible rise, of Crocs and their ghastly generic offspring.

Anonymous Azimus February 28, 2013 5:26 PM  

" pushing more and the the purchasing power"

=

"pushing more and more of the purchasing power"

Anonymous Josh February 28, 2013 5:27 PM  

OT:

Joan Rivers is in trouble with the ADL:

Speaking about Klum’s showstopping gold dress with a seriously plunging neckline, Rivers remarked Monday, “The last time a German looked this hot was when they were pushing Jews into the ovens.” 

Anonymous allyn71 February 28, 2013 6:18 PM  

The information processing response of women in the OP is the exact process my wife goes through and she would readily admit it. Self-awareness is a powerful thing.

Anonymous Noah B. February 28, 2013 6:53 PM  

"For example, I am convinced that the purchasing power of women is almost 100% responsible for the rise, the terrible rise, of Crocs and their ghastly generic offspring."

Not 100%. Crocs are my gardening shoes of choice. Sure, they're ugly as hell, but they're cheap and they hold up very well against mud and water.

The only real drawback is that the soles aren't very tough. I've stepped on a few roofing nails in them, and they're not much protection. Even thorns from Mesquite tree branches will go right through.

I did just get a new pair, though, that seems to have tougher soles. Hoping that will protect my feet a little better.

Anonymous DonReynolds February 28, 2013 6:55 PM  

What many men already know....it does not matter what your feelings might be or whether you like those feelings or if this is what you actually want. If the information is accepted as fact, then we know to respond to the fact and figure out the feelings later (if ever).

The Chinese are always amazed that Westerners are so quick to decide and weigh whether something is a good thing or a bad thing. They have a wonderful little story of a hunter in the forest with a bow. He finds a deer nearby to shoot, which is a good thing, but the deer is frightened off by a horse, which is a bad thing. But the hunter captures the horse, which is a good thing, and takes it home. His son tries to ride the horse, but falls off and breaks his leg, which is a bad thing. The next day the military come to the village and conscript all the young men, except his son, because he has a broken leg, which is now a good thing. Overnight, the horse kicks down the door of the barn and runs away, which is a bad thing, but comes back later with several more horses, which is a good thing. (There is no end to this story, unfortunately.)

This story illustrates how useless our feelings are in evaluating events since we cannot know, even in retrospect with any certainty, whether something is a good thing or a bad thing. At the time, we may be disappointed or elated, but even later we cannot be certain whether an event is a good thing or a bad thing.


Anonymous Idle Spectator, Hero Feminist February 28, 2013 6:58 PM  

Vox, I just had this amazing idea for a new children's toy. It just came to me when I was sitting there idling.

It is the old Rock 'Em Sock 'Em Robots toy, except it features Rihanna and Chris Brown as the robots. An update to reflect 21st Century America. It teaches good feminist values about love and understanding in this new era.

Rock 'Em Rihanna and Sock 'Em Chris Brown.

Rihanna: My block was knocked off!
Chris Brown: I want a rematch!
Narrator: It's ok, just push the head back down and you are ready for the next round!

This Christmas 2013, you know what to get for your kids. They will be so excited when they retrieve it from under the tree and unwrap it.

Anonymous BoysMom February 28, 2013 7:02 PM  

As far as emotions go, I'd say that it's not whether it's a true emotion, but whether it's an appropriate emotion. First emotional reactions are generally not based on all the facts, but just the first bit of what happened. For me, at least, and probably for most women under sixty or so, what my hormones are up to has to be a consideration as well. I ask myself all the time "If I weren't pregnant/nursing/this week of the month how would I feel about this?"
I wouldn't say fear based, though. I don't find fear plays much into evaluating most situations. But then, I'm the sort of person who stays out of situations where fear is justified as much as I can, so I generally don't have to be afraid.

Anonymous John Wayne February 28, 2013 7:20 PM  

But then, I'm the sort of person who stays out of situations where fear is justified as much as I can, so I generally don't have to be afraid.

Anyone sez he ain't afraid, is a liar or a fool.

Blogger ajw308 February 28, 2013 8:04 PM  

Crocs ... they're ugly as hell

Not to mention sweaty feet in a plastic bag.

Maybe the smell keeps the skeeters away...

Anonymous Daniel February 28, 2013 8:12 PM  

Something people miss is that fear is a rational, native response in a woman. I don't mean that fear is rational, only that, because, at a basic level, a woman simply cannot lead with her fists (or even with her fists in reserve), fear is a perfectly reasonable form of latent defense. The problem is that, in the same way that a man will allow his offense to lapse over time, a woman can become a prisoner of her overactive fear.

A man in such a circumstance becomes McRapey - consumed with the fantasy that "everything is just fine as long as I defer to women." The latter woman will tend to insist that everyone validate her fear.

Anonymous Marge February 28, 2013 9:00 PM  

Elizabeth Anscombe had more intellectual capacity in her uterine wall than all of you spasmodic meat suits put together.

Blogger Doom February 28, 2013 9:42 PM  

You will never have a problem with a woman if you tell her, up front, that if she crosses the line you will bend her over your knee and paddle her ass like a spoiled child, and then do so if necessary. I have not been turned in for this, if I did explain exactly what I would be telling the judge (just the truth, but all of it). Was it Biden who said, just spank her, just spank her? Oh, wait, no. That was... ME!

Don't beat her, don't argue with her, get in your car and drive if you need to. But if she crosses that line... And, as a bonus? It's fun as hell and relieves a lot of tension. Sex is hotter than usual for weeks after that. Actually, even just laying down the rules makes sex much better. Whose your daddy?

Having a friend is cute. Having a cow to your bull, a female to your male, a yin to your yang... priceless. But it takes a little work and some risk. I suppose though, if you are a simpering woman begger/needer, a momma's boy in need of approval, you won't be able to pull it off. So maybe this is bad advice for most of you? ymmv

Blogger SarahsDaughter February 28, 2013 9:51 PM  

"You will never have a problem with a woman if you tell her, up front, that if she crosses the line you will bend her over your knee and paddle her ass like a spoiled child, and then do so if necessary."

My father-in-law did this very thing to my mother-in-law. It was one of the first stories I heard when I met the family. Part of the spoiled princess in me left that day...

Anonymous zen0 February 28, 2013 10:07 PM  

Marge February 28, 2013 9:00 PM said: Elizabeth Anscombe had more intellectual capacity in her uterine wall than all of you spasmodic meat suits put together.

Did she spank you? What were the consequences, and who judged whether they were good or not?

Homer?

Anonymous Danny Boy February 28, 2013 11:03 PM  

Elizabeth Anscombe was dried up bag of stupid with ankles like a rhinoceros.

Anonymous dh February 28, 2013 11:18 PM  

Not just the father, but a lot of the males in the movie, if not all of them, were portrayed as stupid. The archery contest thing comes to mind.

I viewed the archery contest thing as being more about the next generation not stacking up to their parents (all the contents were 2nd generation princes (and princess), but I hadn't thought of it that way.

I did enjoy how the little boys were shown in the proper context as adventurous, brave, cunning, rowdy, dogged, and rough & tumble. All great, great gender appropriate depictions of young boys.

Overall pleasantly surprised. Was expecting complete dreck, instead got a fairly traditional fairy tale. (Technically film was excellent; and sound track is a joy also).

Anonymous The other skeptic February 28, 2013 11:32 PM  

Elizabeth Anscombe had more intellectual capacity in her uterine wall than all of you spasmodic meat suits put together.

I think what she is trying to say is that women think with their cunts.

Anonymous dh February 28, 2013 11:34 PM  

Having a friend is cute. Having a cow to your bull, a female to your male, a yin to your yang... priceless. But it takes a little work and some risk. I suppose though, if you are a simpering woman begger/needer, a momma's boy in need of approval, you won't be able to pull it off. So maybe this is bad advice for most of you? ymmv

You don't have to be an alpha (or even a gamma) to benefit from this information. A regular guy run of the mill delta can use this information to his benefit. Quite easily.

Anonymous Jack Amok February 28, 2013 11:35 PM  

The Chinese are always amazed that Westerners are so quick to decide and weigh whether something is a good thing or a bad thing. They have a wonderful little story...

Ah yes, ancient Chinese wisdom. Confucius say, if Chinese so smart, why China such shithole?

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother February 28, 2013 11:46 PM  

Elizabeth Anscombe had more intellectual capacity in her uterine wall than all of you spasmodic meat suits put together.

I think what she is trying to say is that women think with their cunts.


Marge,

Was Elizabeth Anscombe's intellectual potential solely found in her uterine wall? Was there working grey matter anywhere else in her body? I just read that I have more intellectual capacity in my vas deferens than Elizabeth Anscombe had in her uterine wall.

So sorry.

Anonymous Mudz February 28, 2013 11:59 PM  

Elizabeth Anscombe had more intellectual capacity in her uterine wall

So, she thinks with her uterus? That's interesting.


Brave:
(OT?)

This movie actually confused me as to what the hell the message was supposed to be. It was real back and forth, going from feminist beginnings to family and responsibility-oriented endings, and odd isolated scatterings of both throughout the stew, but not according to a single particular vision. I finally found out that that movie had two directors. Initially a female, then a male. I feel like that adequately explains my confusion.

The movie actually failed to grab me in any large way. I know it's been done, but I was totally hoping that she unleashed dragons on the kingdom, or to see huge Scottish armies converging on the castle, and only she could stop them for whatever arbitrary reason, or simply that she was trying to stop them, with or without help, finding out that she dun messed up, for realz. I would have minded seeing her go 'feminist archer' and fighting off monsters and armies like Bowen or Robin Hood, because she would be defending her family/people, and taking responsiblity which is totes props (girls like that, are the best), and full of good messages. I actually don't have a problem with Xena, Warrior Princess, or Mulan, in genereal, as long as the story and the message is told right, and the suspension of disbelief is semi-plausible in the fantasy. She should be a tough girl with a bow, not a I'm-Just-Like-A-Man-Except-Better with a bow.

(Just because we don't want girls to throw themselves into the fray, doesn't mean we couldn't like an imaginary one trying to undo her mistakes by shooting them full of arrows.)

BUT:

Her irresponsibility leading to mum being turned into a bear was too weak a consequence for me, ditto for the bar-room brawl; and the Bad Guy also being a random bear, was also too unimpressive to hold the film together.

(I though the Bad Guy Prince was going to be the Prince of Temptations / Bad Boyfriend kind of motif, ruling over a land of ghosts (and maybe send the little squidgies to lead her to him, so he could reclaim the Fair Lands, etc). I'm not sure whether I'm happy or unhappy that it didn't go that way, but it's absence left a gaping hole of interest and plot that wasn't filled.)

Also, I took major major issue with that one situation where she goes I'm not going to let you kill my mother, which was one of the jarring switches. Suddenly the film turned from fantasy with faeries and kooky witches, into some sort of domestic violence thing, where suddenly her awesome doting Red-Beard King Dad was suddenly some violent, dangerous (probably alcoholic) wife-beater. I did not like.

I have a feeling it would not have a positive effect on daughters.

The Scottish princes were pretty crack up though. There was defs some highlights, and I would still watch it several times (mostly for the 3D artwork). I just think the film was uninspired and self-conflicted. The Two Directors cancelled each other out into no real direction.

Anonymous The other skeptic March 01, 2013 12:06 AM  

Seems diversity is useful after all

He might get off as well, with a jury of this peers.

Anonymous dh March 01, 2013 12:21 AM  

The Scottish princes were pretty crack up though. There was defs some highlights, and I would still watch it several times (mostly for the 3D artwork). I just think the film was uninspired and self-conflicted. The Two Directors cancelled each other out into no real direction.

Two directors explains a lot. The mom/bear thing was pretty weird esp. given how the bear is built up to be the ultimate villain.

I agree also, the entire supernatural bear thing should have just been left out. It was appealing when the bear was just a bear. For a nominal kids movie it was extra confusing - there was no need to have a second villain. It sure felt they just didn't want the witch to be the villain (been there, done that, right Disney)?

Anonymous The other skeptic March 01, 2013 1:36 AM  

Uh oh, the police are into nabbing elite fugitives now.

Anonymous Noah B. March 01, 2013 1:49 AM  

"Elizabeth Anscombe had more intellectual capacity in her uterine wall than all of you spasmodic meat suits put together."

Must have been one hell of a uterus. How did you become acquainted with it?

Anonymous The other skeptic March 01, 2013 2:12 AM  

Heh, something is seriously amiss, since the media is now reporting rape hoaxes

Anonymous Bo Ergu March 01, 2013 2:15 AM  

Jack Amok:
Ah yes, ancient Chinese wisdom. Confucius say, if Chinese so smart, why China such shithole?

Equally, "Ah yes, ancient Greek wisdom. Socrates say, if Greek so smart, why Greece such shithole?" We could go on.

One reads Sima Qian's "Hereditary House of Confucius" and sees 40 years of job interviews and only 2 hires-on-probation. More often than not, wisdom comes out of shitholes rather than paradises.


Marge:

Weird choice, Anscombe. How about Martha Nussbaum?

Anonymous The other skeptic March 01, 2013 2:21 AM  

More often than not, wisdom comes out of shitholes rather than paradises.

Can you elaborate on that a bit? What is it about shitholes that leads to wisdom?

I assume it is more than:

1. Born in a shithole.
2. Magic happens.
3. Wisdom arrives.

Anonymous The other skeptic March 01, 2013 2:38 AM  

What if everything you know is wrong

Anonymous VryeDenker March 01, 2013 3:13 AM  

More often than not, wisdom comes out of shitholes rather than paradises.

Can you elaborate on that a bit? What is it about shitholes that leads to wisdom?


Being forced to come up with solutions to very serious and immediate problems. No problems mean no incentive to invent or re-assess.

Anonymous ericcs March 01, 2013 7:00 AM  

God in heaven...

I swear Vox, do you ever consider a concise polemic that can be used for the great unwashed masses? Your positions are so brittle, so lengthy, so inappropriate for convincing anyone but the elite. You are alive in a small corner of the intellectual world. I already know you don't give a flying fuck, I know this is all for your amusement, but for the love of God, do you even once ever consider putting your intellectual gifts into use for fighting the "good fight", for reducing to metaphorical ashes the left in all its hubris and error?

Shit, is this all just masturbatory nonsense? I have accused the left of such time after time, but as a spokesman for libertarianism, are you the same animal? BTW, "yes" or "no" will be a sufficient answer. Other than that, as a Traditional Conservative, I in the miserable tradition of Pontius Pilot wash my hands of you.

Anonymous The One March 01, 2013 8:19 AM  

OT Question- Has anyone used deer antler velvet. I want to know if it is a good supplement or not.

Blogger Tiny Tim March 01, 2013 8:43 AM  

We see Barack Obama behave in tis manner as well....

Anonymous Tad March 01, 2013 9:10 AM  

@Vox Day
This gets at the heart of the greater part of what is considered "sexism" today. And yet, who is the more truly sexist, those who simply acknowledge the readily observable or those who deny it

What about those who misconstrue the truth?

Little Sarah talks like she knows all women and of course she does not. She ignores the many that don't act the way she describes for some reason that isn't clear. In other words, her inability or reluctance to give even a head fake to the whole truth makes her an unreliable source of anything other than her own unreliability.

Anonymous The other skeptic March 01, 2013 9:49 AM  

Being forced to come up with solutions to very serious and immediate problems. No problems mean no incentive to invent or re-assess.

My problem with this is that there are plenty of people in that shithole known as Africa, although some parts are less of a shithole than others, but they never seem to improve things.

However, in another shithole known as Vietnam they have taken to teaching computer programming from elementary school. That poses a danger to certain people's offspring that they cannot even see.

Blogger SarahsDaughter March 01, 2013 10:06 AM  

Tad,
The comments I made were in response to a woman who had an emotional/irrational outburst. Her own words and retractions over the course of the conversation are evidence that I read her correctly:
"I didn’t phrase my statement properly"
"Maybe I'm misreading SD and you,"
"Over time, I have been reluctant to conclude"
"that's the role I embraced, in spite of myself."
"I think what had me so disillusioned yesterday"
"Maybe I got that wrong."
"Probably so, but I'm trying to gain understanding/acceptance"
"which is why I read this blog and offer up my opinion at the risk of exposing my wrong thinking or misinterpretation"
"Again, I'm not aware of what missive or bunk I spewed that has been heard countless times, so my apologies that I'm not up to speed on that."
"If what I communicated was...then I was a very bad writer, because that's not what I believe."
"I didn't realize I was"
"My original posts expressed my frustration/confusion"


It was after all of this that I said: "You are not alone in this. I go through the same mental processes." And then went on to write what Vox has quoted.

Blogger SarahsDaughter March 01, 2013 10:45 AM  

Also, between AG, this blog and my own, there have been 10 female commenters about this. 8 of them are in agreement, 1 snowflake, and...well, Marge. The snowflake could make the case that because she's a STEM type female she's different, but that wouldn't explain Stickwick - (an observable intellectual heavyweight by comparison).

Anonymous The CronoLink March 01, 2013 11:12 AM  

Tad, why do you look down on women?

Anonymous The One March 01, 2013 11:24 AM  

Tad, do you accept modern science conclusion that man and woman's brain are structurally different (anatomy)? Do you accept that behaviors (physiology) are different based on those difference in structure and hormonal factors?

For example if I gave a women 17 times more testosterone then she currently has so she had the testosterone levels of a man, do you accept there will be no difference in her behavior? Why do you hate science?

Anonymous Jack Amok March 01, 2013 11:52 AM  

Being forced to come up with solutions to very serious and immediate problems. No problems mean no incentive to invent or re-assess.

And what if the solutions don't work? I mean, it's not like China is less of (relative) shithole today than in Confucius' time. Two thousand years and no progress. The West may be collapsing at the moment, but at least we had our run, and I suspect we'll have another one. China's been the same basket of failure forever.

"Ancient Chinese Wisdom" basically amounts to hamersters explaining why things suck.

And let's not get started on Sun Tzu. Reading a Chinese book on the Art of War is like reading a Mexican book on the Art of Honest Government.

Anonymous Heh March 01, 2013 3:08 PM  

Noah B. February 28, 2013 6:53 PM "For example, I am convinced that the purchasing power of women is almost 100% responsible for the rise, the terrible rise, of Crocs and their ghastly generic offspring."

Not 100%. Crocs are my gardening shoes of choice. Sure, they're ugly as hell, but they're cheap and they hold up very well against mud and water.


If you're a guy, wearings crocs is like getting a bj from a man. Feels really great, but then you look down and realize you're a faggot.

Anonymous Bo Ergu March 01, 2013 11:07 PM  

Bo Ergu March 01, 2013 2:15 AM
More often than not, wisdom comes out of shitholes rather than paradises.

The other skeptic March 01, 2013 2:21 AM
Can you elaborate on that a bit? What is it about shitholes that leads to wisdom?
I assume it is more than:
1. Born in a shithole.
2. Magic happens.
3. Wisdom arrives.


You're in effect assuming, as you say you do, it's more than:
1. Born.
2. Magic happens.
3. Wisdom arrives.

which is trivially true.

Your tone suggests that you believe in the contrary, i.e. either wisdom comes out of shitholes rather than paradises less often

than not; or it's equally likely. Or it's a combination of both; or there simply is no way for us to know. Care to elaborate?

VryeDenker's reply is definitely in the correct direction:
VryeDenker March 01, 2013 3:13 AM
Being forced to come up with solutions to very serious and immediate problems. No problems mean no incentive to invent or re-

assess.


to which I'd add:

1. The meaning of "shithole" and "paradise" has more to do with the level of contentment or satisfaction felt by the thinkers than with any

external measures, no matter how objective that may be.

2. The serious and immediate problems VyreDenker alludes to are to do with the perceived disintegration of social contracts and cultural

consensus. This was the case in China during the times of Confucius; likewise in India during the times of the Buddha; likewise somewhere

in Northwest Near East during the times of Jesus; likewise somewhere in Southern Near East during the times of Mohamed; likewise

somewhere in Northern Italy during the times of Dante to Machiavelli. One could argue the case for Athens during the times of Socrates,

Plato and Aristotle as well.

3. I treat my claim as an empirical statement, and I could draw on the history (so far as we are able to know) of the different civilizations in

the world to support this claim. Similarly, one could draw on the same resources to counter this claim. The validity (or otherwise) of this

claim of mine could and should be settled this way.

4. Once this has been settled, we could then move on to try to explain why that is the case.


Your reply to VyreDenker, i.e.
The other skeptic March 01, 2013 9:49 AM
My problem with this is that there are plenty of people in that shithole known as Africa, although some parts are less of a shithole than

others, but they never seem to improve things. However, in another shithole known as Vietnam they have taken to teaching computer

programming from elementary school. That poses a danger to certain people's offspring that they cannot even see.

is in the right direction, in the sense of my first and second points above, i.e. if the inhabitants of a "shithole" don't perceive it as such, and

don't perceive that their society and culture is disintegrating before their eyes, then they don't find it desperate to look for solutions.

Anonymous Bo Ergu March 01, 2013 11:12 PM  

Vox,
Please delete my entry, the formatting was all mixed up.

Folks,
Ignore the above entry if it hasn't been deleted (yet), this one has the same content.

=================================================

Bo Ergu March 01, 2013 2:15 AM
More often than not, wisdom comes out of shitholes rather than paradises.

The other skeptic March 01, 2013 2:21 AM
Can you elaborate on that a bit? What is it about shitholes that leads to wisdom?
I assume it is more than:
1. Born in a shithole.
2. Magic happens.
3. Wisdom arrives.


You're in effect assuming, as you say you do, it's more than:
1. Born.
2. Magic happens.
3. Wisdom arrives.

which is trivially true.

Your tone suggests that you believe in the contrary, i.e. either wisdom comes out of shitholes rather than paradises less often than not; or it's equally likely. Or it's a combination of both; or there simply is no way for us to know. Care to elaborate?

VryeDenker's reply is definitely in the correct direction:
VryeDenker March 01, 2013 3:13 AM
Being forced to come up with solutions to very serious and immediate problems. No problems mean no incentive to invent or re-assess.

to which I'd add:

1. The meaning of "shithole" and "paradise" has more to do with the level of contentment or satisfaction felt by the thinkers than with any external measures, no matter how objective that may be.

2. The serious and immediate problems VyreDenker alludes to are to do with the perceived disintegration of social contracts and cultural consensus. This was the case in China during the times of Confucius; likewise in India during the times of the Buddha; likewise somewhere in Northwest Near East during the times of Jesus; likewise somewhere in Southern Near East during the times of Mohamed; likewise
somewhere in Northern Italy during the times of Dante to Machiavelli. One could argue the case for Athens during the times of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle as well.

3. I treat my claim as an empirical statement, and I could draw on the history (so far as we are able to know) of the different civilizations in the world to support this claim. Similarly, one could draw on the same resources to counter this claim. The validity (or otherwise) of this claim of mine could and should be settled this way.

4. Once this has been settled, we could then move on to try to explain why that is the case.


Your reply to VyreDenker, i.e.
The other skeptic March 01, 2013 9:49 AM
My problem with this is that there are plenty of people in that shithole known as Africa, although some parts are less of a shithole than others, but they never seem to improve things. However, in another shithole known as Vietnam they have taken to teaching computer programming from elementary school. That poses a danger to certain people's offspring that they cannot even see.

is in the right direction, in the sense of my first and second points above, i.e. if the inhabitants of a "shithole" don't perceive it as such, and don't perceive that their society and culture is disintegrating before their eyes, then they don't find it desperate to look for solutions.

Anonymous Bo Ergu March 01, 2013 11:15 PM  

Jack Amok March 01, 2013 11:52 AM
And what if the solutions don't work? I mean, it's not like China is less of (relative) shithole today than in Confucius' time. Two thousand years and no progress.

I would say that China nowadays is more of a shithole than during the times of Confucius. This could be used as a counterexample to my claim. One possible answer to this counterexample is that this is still early days.

To cite Chinese history again: China went into turmoil sometime in the 8th Century B.C. (after about 3 centuries of peace and prosperity) which ended after five centuries. Confucius, one of the earliest among significant thinkers of that time in China to emerge, was born in 551B.C., nearly 200 years after the turmoil began.

Buddhism was introduced to China in about A.D.100, and it took nearly 700 years for China to fully assimilate it, after 2 significant periods of turmoil.

As for "2000 years and no progress", it really depends on what you see as progress. It has been said that Chinese history is a history of people cutting each others' head off, and from this angle China has never experienced any progress at all throughout its 3000 years of recorded history. From other angles, progress could be seen as rather steady if nothing spectacular. But all in all, for an average honest Chinese who has been more or less indoctrinated with the myth of the "greatness of the Middle Kingdom", the more he learns about Chinese history the more depressed he would feel, until he succeeds in relieving himself of the indoctrination and borderline brainwashing.

The West may be collapsing at the moment, but at least we had our run, and I suspect we'll have another one. China's been the same basket of failure forever.

This isn't a zero-sum game any more (if ever). Like it or not, we're in it together now!

"Ancient Chinese Wisdom" basically amounts to hamsters explaining why things suck. And let's not get started on Sun Tzu. Reading a Chinese book on the Art of War is like reading a Mexican book on the Art of Honest Government.

Care to elaborate?

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