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Tuesday, February 12, 2013

Another feminist myth exploded

The notion that equal access to higher education was going to cause a flowering of female intellectual achievement was always false, because it observably didn't happen the first time around.
Although the fact is not widely known, the ratio of male-to-female undergraduates in the United States was about at parity from 1900 to 1930. Male enrollments began to increase relative to female enrollments in the 1930s and later as GIs returned from World War II. A highpoint of gender imbalance in college attendance was reached in 1947 when undergraduate men outnumbered women 2.3 to 1. But starting then and continuing until the present in an almost unbroken trend, female college enrollments have increased relative to male enrollments. 
In other words, elite women were attending university in equal numbers to elite men, but more middle-class and working-class men going to college threw the balance out of whack.  Middle-class women followed suit, and the consequent collapse in national demographics caused the replacement of 60 million aborted natives with 60 million alien immigrants.

Brilliant.  Just brilliant.  Short of poisoning the water supply or dropping a large quantity of nuclear weapons on the major cities, it would be hard to concoct a more efficient means of crippling a nation.

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157 Comments:

Anonymous Joe February 12, 2013 9:20 AM  

Biology is destiny.

Anonymous Lysander Spooner February 12, 2013 9:41 AM  

Ah, the sweet smell of Feminism in the morning.

Good morning 'Merica.

Anonymous Josh February 12, 2013 9:45 AM  

Was the driving force guilty elite women who felt bad that it wasn't fair that middle class women couldn't enjoy the fruits of the elite life, or envious middle class women?

Blogger The Observer February 12, 2013 9:45 AM  

Wake up, Mr Spooner. Wake up and smell the ashes.

With all the other things feminists have lied about, does this really strike anyone as surprising?

Anonymous Cryan Ryan February 12, 2013 9:45 AM  

Your underlying premise seems to be that a nation of smarter people is better than a nation of mediocre people.

Maybe that isn't true.

What if a nation of smarter people leads to total collapse, (leaving bacteria and radiation resistant cockroaches) whereas a nation of dumber folks would lead to muddling along for many more thousands of years? (in grass huts, fighting with sticks)

What metric do we use for our assumptions?

Anonymous Cryan Ryan February 12, 2013 9:48 AM  

I should have used "world" rather than "nation". But I suppose they will be the one & the same in the near future.

Blogger Nate February 12, 2013 9:50 AM  

The idea that women were uneducated compared to men in the early 1900s is a myth I've beat on for years now.

I mean are people really so stupid they think nursing is a modern advancement? In the west, women have always had access to high levels of education.

Anonymous Daniel February 12, 2013 9:51 AM  

Let the lawsuits begin.

Blogger Nate February 12, 2013 9:53 AM  

"Your underlying premise seems to be that a nation of smarter people is better than a nation of mediocre people."

Dude.

That subtext ain't there.

Anonymous Lysander Spooner February 12, 2013 9:54 AM  

@ The Observer

"Truth is Treason in The Empire of Lies" - Dr. Ernest

Anonymous Brendan February 12, 2013 9:55 AM  

It was never really about education per se -- that has not been lacking among elite women. What was coveted was the corner office and the power it represents -- they coveted what they saw as "male power", and still do, only now we need to remake the entire corporate workplace rules and expectations to make it easier for more highly educated elite women to get the coveted corner office.

Anonymous Edjamacator February 12, 2013 9:56 AM  

Stay in the kitchen and out of the abortion offices.

That's sexist? Yeah, well, women, enjoy being treated like property by the ones that will rule over you next.

Blogger The Observer February 12, 2013 9:57 AM  

It really gets you thinking, though. Let's say general education and intelligence in women always gives rise to feminism and civilisational collapse, would it be out of the question that given enough time, either a) the entire human race would be dumbed down or b) intelligence and/or ambition and rebelliousness become sexually dimorphic traits?

Anonymous Godfrey February 12, 2013 10:06 AM  

@Vox

"Brilliant. Just brilliant. Short of poisoning the water supply or dropping a large quantity of nuclear weapons on the major cities, it would be hard to concoct a more efficient means of crippling a nation."


Please Vox, don't give the ruling classes any ideas.

Anonymous Mr Green Man February 12, 2013 10:07 AM  

Education does not mean intelligence; mis-education is worse than abject ignorance. College was used as a place to park middle class girls until they could be married off, only they broke marriage.

I cite two examples of mis-education requiring more effort than a blank slate:

First, like many congregationalist churches, my church has a constitutional bar on immediately admitting a professing new convert to membership. Instead, there is a period of training courses where they unlearn "cultural churchianity", which largely was taught to them through the social studies curriculum. Worst example: The assertion by some learned German professor that the key components of Christianity are the universal brotherhood of mankind and the universal fatherhood of God.

Second, the damage that Fortran and BASIC did to computer science:

Dr Dijkstra, in his famous 1975 critique of programmer training:
"FORTRAN's tragic fate has been its wide acceptance, mentally chaining thousands and thousands of programmers to our past mistakes."

"It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration."

Anonymous The other skeptic February 12, 2013 10:30 AM  

Predators go where the prey are. If the predator to prey ratio is too high, bad things happen to the predators. Oh, yeah, and the prey are fucked.

Anonymous Krul February 12, 2013 10:33 AM  

Back in college when I first started paying attention, I noticed something bizarre.

The popular perception is that feminists hate men. This is not perfectly accurate. Feminists envy men. In reality, the thing that feminists hate and wish to see utterly annihilated and forgotten is... women.

I came to this conclusion after observing that feminists do not only seek to see traditional "manly" pursuits made available to women. They also wish to prevent women from engaging in traditional "womanly" pursuits, e.g. homemaking and childbirth. Anything that smacks of a distinctive "female" identity is viciously attacked, while "male" pursuits are lauded as worthy "empowering" ambitions. Their ideal world is one composed entirely of creatures which are masculine in appearance, ability, and appetite.

In my opinion, those who say that feminism is a "war against men" have it exactly backwards. Feminism is a war against woman kind.

From this perspective, the well known alliance between feminists and male gays takes on a suggestive new context.

Anonymous The other skeptic February 12, 2013 10:35 AM  

Second, the damage that Fortran and BASIC did to computer science:

Well, Computer Software is hard stuff (and it is really an engineering discipline, not science) and you have to be at least this (*) tall to take the ride.

* Two to three SDs above the mean.

Anonymous Mike M. February 12, 2013 10:37 AM  

Modern feminists just plain hate. Everything. Because they are failures - no good as women, no good as faux men, either.

But the bit about women having parity in college circa 1900 is news to me. Interesting tidbit to feed into the equation.

Anonymous Mike M. February 12, 2013 10:39 AM  

And yes, the goal of the modern feminist is to turn boys into girls...and girls into cooked spagetti with no backbone at all.

Anonymous A Visitor February 12, 2013 10:47 AM  

I'd make one addendum to your ideas of crippling society: as other comments have pointed out, many women have bought the feminist line hook, kind, & sinker. It makes it that much harder for young men such as myself to find women that we would like to marry.

Anonymous A Visitor February 12, 2013 10:48 AM  

Hook, line, and sinker. Stupid auto correct

Anonymous Cryan Ryan February 12, 2013 10:51 AM  

"Dude.

That subtext ain't there."

Nate, two points..

1) coming from someone who believes a beagle and a pitbull pose an equal threat to a grandchild, your opinion is meaningless.

2) wasn't talking to you anyway.

Anonymous Noah B. February 12, 2013 10:54 AM  

"Short of poisoning the water supply..."

Fluoridation: the most monstrous communist plot ever conceived.

Anonymous Daniel February 12, 2013 10:54 AM  

One question - somewhat related: if Melissa McCarthy wasn't a hippo, would she be famous?

Blogger Bob Wallace February 12, 2013 10:59 AM  

The current "flowering of female intellectual achievement" has meant that whatever women dominate in (such as schools) has meant catastrophe. I wouldn't want to be a little boy in a public school today, since I clearly had what today would be diagnosed as Attention Deficit Disorder without Hyperactivity. Which, of course, means murder/suicide pills.

Anonymous Stilicho February 12, 2013 11:05 AM  

It was never really about education per se -- that has not been lacking among elite women. What was coveted was the corner office and the power it represents -- they coveted what they saw as "male power", and still do, only now we need to remake the entire corporate workplace rules and expectations to make it easier for more highly educated elite women to get the coveted corner office.

For those so inclined, do a little research: ask working women who they would rather have as a boss; a man or a woman.

Anonymous Shorty February 12, 2013 11:07 AM  

"Your underlying premise seems to be that a nation of smarter people is better than a nation of mediocre people."

That is in no way correct. What part of his post leads you to believe that?

Anonymous Stilicho February 12, 2013 11:08 AM  

Green man and Skeptic: where would you suggest starting with programming for someone interested in self-study?

Anonymous The other skeptic February 12, 2013 11:16 AM  

Green man and Skeptic: where would you suggest starting with programming for someone interested in self-study?

It depends on what you want to do.

You could actually start with Java on Windows or the Mac or Linux to do and explore simple things.

However, if you want to mess with hardware and software, you can start with something like one of the Arduino experimenters kits out there.

On the other hand, if you want to mess with Android and phones, then you are going to have to download Eclipse and an emulator and look at some of that stuff.

However, perhaps Python is the quickest way to get a feel for computer programming initially. I say this because, while its syntax if a little interesting, Python is available for Windows, Linux, etc, and you can ignore all the Object Oriented stuff in Python until you have explored it a bit. Finally, there is lots of course material for Python, and you can leverage many of the concepts in other languages. There are also plenty of tutorials on Python. Just remember, the syntax of Python is different to most other languages.

However, nothing beats actually trying it on a real project that you have in mind, because simply doing programming exercises all the time is mind numbing.

Blogger James Dixon February 12, 2013 11:19 AM  

> However, perhaps Python is the quickest way to get a feel for computer programming initially.

I would second that suggestion.

> However, nothing beats actually trying it on a real project that you have in mind, because simply doing programming exercises all the time is mind numbing.

Absolutely.

Anonymous DrTorch February 12, 2013 11:34 AM  

"Attention Deficit Disorder without Hyperactivity. Which, of course, means murder/suicide pills."

I'm thinking Cloward-Piven strategy and put LOTS of ADD/ADHD boys in schools, encouraged to be boys by lots of healthy food, exercise and access to firecrackers, and then shrugging your shoulders when the teachers complain.

Oh, and that "permanent record" threat? Pfft, It won't matter, b/c they'll be top students by HS, but if anyone asks, claim they're homeschooled and they got all 'A's.

Blogger ajw308 February 12, 2013 11:35 AM  

I always figured the decay of the American university system had it's roots in the Vietnam draft dodgers, many of which would have never gone to college otherwise, who flooded the universities and stayed there, accumulating degrees as long as they could to avoid the draft.

That they're destroying the country and culture they despise so effectively is more due to dumb luck than any long term planning on their part (though maybe the KGB Active Measures dept saw some utility here).

I think a bunch of hippies flocking anywhere can't be a good thing.

Blogger Nate February 12, 2013 11:37 AM  

"1) coming from someone who believes a beagle and a pitbull pose an equal threat to a grandchild, your opinion is meaningless.

2) wasn't talking to you anyway."

1) You don't read well... which... is sort of indicative of the problem with your comment here. I did not say anything of the sort. I pointed out that the small yappy lap dogs are several standard deviations more aggressive than a pit bull. Threat level was not discussed. You, being a sloppy reader, read something into a statement that wasn't there.

2) exactly like you did here. In the interest of charity I was attempting to save you additional embarrassment.

Anonymous Cryan Ryan February 12, 2013 11:38 AM  

"Your underlying premise seems to be that a nation of smarter people is better than a nation of mediocre people." Cryan Ryan

That is in no way correct. What part of his post leads you to believe that? (Shorty)
..............

Shorty,

Assume Vox is correct that 60 million aborted natives have been replaced with 60 million immigrants. (I don't disagree)

Assume he is correct that the 60 million immigrants are less intelligent on average, than those aborted. (he's expressed this view in the past, and again I don't disagree)

Assume he is serious when he calls this a collapse of demographics and says it cripples the nation.

My conclusion...Vox sees a society of smarter people as better than a society of less-smart people.

I guess you could parse words if that's your thing. Perhaps my use of "better" is causing you angst.

I'm merely wondering out loud if society can last longer and have more quality of life for it's members if the members have higher IQ's.

I'm not sure it is so. It appears Vox may believe it is so.

Isn't it highly likely that smarter people may doom our civilization? Whereas dumbass hunter gatherers will kind of be back where things were 10,000 years ago?

(maybe not living in diabetic luxury, but surely their lives had some quality)

Blogger ajw308 February 12, 2013 11:42 AM  

I always figured the decay of the American university system had it's roots in the Vietnam draft dodgers, many of which would have never gone to college otherwise, who flooded the universities and stayed there, accumulating degrees as long as they could to avoid the draft.

That they're destroying the country and culture they despise so effectively is more due to dumb luck than any long term planning on their part (though maybe the KGB Active Measures dept saw some utility here).

I think a bunch of hippies flocking anywhere can't be a good thing.

Anonymous Daniel February 12, 2013 11:48 AM  

University graduates aren't even bothering with the illusion of competence and intelligence anymore:

It took four people (plus my lone bracketed edit) to foist this monstrosity through the alimentary canal of the Objective Media(David Bailey in Minneapolis and Tom Brown in Miami; Editing by Lisa Von Ahn and Dan Grebler):

"The man was being held at Washington County Jail in Stillwater, Minnesota, on suspicion of second degree murder and first degree assault, but formal charges had not yet been filed.

[As if by magic] The shooting came as U.S. President Barack Obama was expected to reiterate his recent calls for a crackdown on gun violence when he gives his State of the Union address on Tuesday evening."

Anonymous Alexander February 12, 2013 11:50 AM  

I suppose its possible to draw that conclusion. But it seems much more likely that a dumb society can survive as long as it has a stable and homogeneous culture. Whereas smart people without such unifying system in place are just going to come up with better way to attack each other.

What's detrimental here is that we have abandoned reproducing our own culture, and so are importing other cultures to make up the difference in the work force. Leftists can shout from the rooftops that these new cultures are in no way worse or inferior - but that's irrelevant if you're goal is to preserve the host.

So if your goal is to cripple a nation - and we define a nation in any meaningful way beyond a geographical entity - then short of Nuclear Armageddon, creating a social order that requires the nation to import vast numbers of foreigners is the next best method.

Anonymous Tad February 12, 2013 11:53 AM  

@Vox Day



But there's one thing. The Nation has not been and is not crippled...In any respect.

But I'll tell you how you could have seen it crippled: Adhere to a illogical, tyrannical, theocratic-driven concept of liberty by outlawing a woman's right to sovereignty over her own body.

You can't count on people who advance the weird and biblical idea of patriarchy to be trusted to advance liberty for the individual. They will inevitably seek ways to subjugate women to their idea of God's will and their own insistence on reserving male power at the expense of women's liberty.

Anonymous Matt February 12, 2013 11:53 AM  

However, nothing beats actually trying it on a real project that you have in mind, because simply doing programming exercises all the time is mind numbing.

Project Euler is a good option - it's sort of an odd cross between free-form exercises and projects. I learned Python by doing projects there.

Anonymous Shorty February 12, 2013 11:54 AM  

"I'm merely wondering out loud if society can last longer and have more quality of life for it's members if the members have higher IQ's.

I'm not sure it is so. It appears Vox may believe it is so.

Isn't it highly likely that smarter people may doom our civilization? Whereas dumbass hunter gatherers will kind of be back where things were 10,000 years ago?

(maybe not living in diabetic luxury, but surely their lives had some quality)"

That is absolutely moronic, and it still has nothing to do with the point of the OP.

If you think that an intellectually sub-standard society may be happier, feel free to live in Haiti and drink the choleric water that they haven't figured out how to boil or not defecate in yet.

The real purpose of your comment is to draw the addressee into an absurd argument and bring him down to the level you're at. Run along now, grown ups are talking.

Blogger James Dixon February 12, 2013 11:58 AM  

> The Nation has not been and is not crippled...In any respect.

$16 trillion in outstanding debt. Almost $6 trillion of that in the last 4 years. And $1 trillion per year more as far as the eye can see. Then add in the untold trillions in promised benefits with no money to pay for them.

But no, we're not crippled at all.

Anonymous Daniel February 12, 2013 12:03 PM  

I always figured the decay of the American university system had it's roots in the Vietnam draft dodgers.

This was its trunk, not its root, but yeah, it bore bad fruit.

Anonymous Josh February 12, 2013 12:05 PM  

My conclusion...Vox sees a society of smarter people as better than a society of less-smart people.

Or...his focus is on the racial and cultural composition of the aborted and the immigrants.

Anonymous Josh February 12, 2013 12:06 PM  

Adhere to a illogical, tyrannical, theocratic-driven concept of liberty by outlawing a woman's right to sovereignty over her own body.

Tad, why would that cripple the nation?

Anonymous Jack Amok February 12, 2013 12:12 PM  

Brilliant. Just brilliant. Short of poisoning the water supply or dropping a large quantity of nuclear weapons on the major cities, it would be hard to concoct a more efficient means of crippling a nation

Well, you could also convince a large portion of the higher achieving men to become parasitical lawyers and stock brokers instead of doing something productive with their lives. And you could start the EPA and EEOC to deal with the rest...


Dr Dijkstra, in his famous 1975 critique of programmer training:

Meh. Dijkstra was both a fool and a genius. He made many important, perhaps essential, contributions, but he was also spectacularly wrong about some things, his vilification of the GOTO statement being one. BASIC is a fine language for what it does, and while FORTRAN isn't a particularly elegant language, it was very effective at what it was meant for. FORTRAN was typically taught to real engineering students as it has a boatload of support for practical things like calculating loadings on a structure. CompSci majors tended to learn lisp and PASCAL. The Engineers nearly universally made better programmers than the CompSci guys.

Why? I suspect because the Engineers learned to accomplish tasks with the computer while the CompSci guys learned a bunch of formal rules for impressing each other with oddball code constructs. If anything has mentally chained or mutilated programmers, it's been faddish indoctrination into various compsci cults full of received wisdom like "Goto is evil."

Dijkstra was unquestionably brilliant and one of the grandfathers of C. But his record of coding philosophy is mixed. Fundamentally he is too lost in theory and architecture. His musings give the impression he was resentful that code had to be sullied with running on actual machines to do actual things, instead of having a more pristine existence as some sort of spiritual entity. Good grief, he actually liked Backus-Naur format! To praise BNF and scorn BASIC is to be disconnected from the I/O buffer of reality (he seemed to have a profound dislike of I/O, BTW.)

But his understanding of the importance of abstraction, of the folly of thinking programmers "should be puzzle-minded and very fond of clever tricks" were and still are vitally important.

Blogger The Observer February 12, 2013 12:17 PM  

I LOVE it when the whole "sovereignty over one's body" argument is brought up at the same time when people have no problem preventing smokers, soda drinkers and druggies from putting what they want in their own bodies. Additionally, since I must have sovereignty over my own body, I would like to know when:

-I can refuse to be conscripted, because that is clearly taking control of my body.
-Circumcision for both infant boys and girls will be outlawed. Removal of a part of one's body without consent is clearly violating this.
-I can refuse to pay taxes that will go towards welfare programmes, as well as alimony and child support. I am forced to work, or else I will be thrown into a cage. Is this not control over my body via coercion?
-I can get a vasectomy without a permission slip signed by my wife.
-My sperm is considered mine and not subject to deception, theft, rape, shame or outright going to Pimp Daddy G and telling him to shake down us Johns.

So, when's my choice coming?

Whoops, never.

Tad gets bonus points for pretending there are no secular pro-lifers, too.

Anonymous Tad February 12, 2013 12:17 PM  

@josh

Tad, why would that cripple the nation?

Subjugation of half the population isn't a good plan if your goal is a nation of independent people sustained by the idea that liberty is at the heart of the endeavor.

Anonymous Tad February 12, 2013 12:20 PM  

@The observer

Tad gets bonus points for pretending there are no secular pro-lifers, too.

The "pro-life" position is decidedly anti-liberty, whether driven by secular notions of power or biblical notions of tyrannical patriarchy.

Blogger The Observer February 12, 2013 12:23 PM  

Please don't ignore the rest of my post, Tad. Please tell me when your political platform will campaign for my right to choose what I can do with my body.

Anonymous Mystery Man February 12, 2013 12:25 PM  

Subjugation of half the population isn't a good plan if your goal is a nation of independent people sustained by the idea that liberty is at the heart of the endeavor.

Substitute "households" for "people" and you'll be less completely wrong. Total atomisation of mankind ironically works better for subjugation of populations rather than toward their liberty.

I note that you judge a good use of your five permitted comments to be a scattershot cluster of feminist insults and wild, finger-pointing accusations, by the bye.

Anonymous Tad February 12, 2013 12:27 PM  

@The observer

There is no conscription
Circumcision is elective
You don't need permission for a vascectomy
Your sperm is yours
I can't help you with taxes: But they are paid by ALL

Anonymous Jack Amok February 12, 2013 12:30 PM  

Stilicho,

Python is a good tool to start learning, and you can gradually ramp up to many useful topics on it. I love Python. It has some structural oddities though.

Another option if you are running Windows is to download one of the free Visual Studio Express packages from Microsoft. These are C/C++/C# development environments, slightly limited versions of what MSFT sells, and you can build lots of powerful apps with those once you're proficient with the various flavors of C.

Be wary of Java and JScript. There's nothing inherently wrong with the languages per se, but they are used overwhelmingly by semi-proficient hacks who bailing-wire and bubblegum together rube Goldberg contraptions. The hacks are inordinately fond of sharing their Frankencode on the Internet, so you can find lots of bad programming tips. Learn to write and structure code with other languages first, then you can explore the world of webcode without becoming a hack yourself.

Anonymous Josh February 12, 2013 12:31 PM  

Subjugation of half the population isn't a good plan if your goal is a nation of independent people sustained by the idea that liberty is at the heart of the endeavor.

"isn't a good idea" isn't quite the same as crippling a nation.

Now, in the original post, Vox brought up the 60 million aborted natives and the 60 million new immigrants.

will replacing that many people within a generation make the nation stronger or weaker?

Anonymous Josh February 12, 2013 12:32 PM  

Circumcision is elective

So, the eight day old baby is consenting?

Blogger The Observer February 12, 2013 12:37 PM  

And now Tad starts lying out of his mouth.

*Wrong. You are looking at things from an Americanised view. In my country, I am conscripted for two years, and yet abortions are legal. I am under the understanding, too, that you folks of the USA have this thing called Selective Service. Will one of your presidents call up the draft? Maybe, maybe not. But he can.

*So, you are under the idea that infants are capable of giving consent?

*Yes, you do need a permission slip from your wife for a vasectomy. We already have numerous examples within the Androsphere of this, Professor Ashur's story is one. Same if you are a member of the US armed forces, I believe.

*Happily, thanks to all the links I just posted, this isn't the case, and so you are lying out of your mouth.

*Ah, but certain subsections of the populace do not pay taxes. Furthermore, given who pays into welfare programmes and who takes out of them, it's clear to see certain groups are the beneficiaries of transfer payments. But let's say that everyone paid taxes. Is this not horrible? The personal soverignity of so many people is being violated to pay for others! How horrible!

Blogger The Observer February 12, 2013 12:41 PM  

Where is my right to drink sweet, sugary sodas within New York City, damn it! I want my RIGHT to drink sweet, sugary sodas within the city limits! It's my blood, my liver, my stomach, and I have the RIGHT to make myself as morbidly obese as I want to! My body, my choice! The gubbamint, they are restricting my LIBERTY by not giving me my personal soverignity!

Ahem.

This small piece of hyperbole was brought to you by the letter "t" and the numbers "1" and "11".

OpenID meistergedanken February 12, 2013 12:41 PM  

Josh wrote: "So, the eight day old baby is consenting?"

According to Tad, yes. And this is why he has no problem whatsoever with pedophilia.

NAMBLA would be proud. Tad, at least be careful not to spread your syphilis to the young'ns.

Blogger James Dixon February 12, 2013 12:42 PM  

> This small piece of hyperbole was brought to you by the letter "t" and the numbers "1" and "11".

I thought that was the numbers 7 and 11. :)

Anonymous Cinco February 12, 2013 12:44 PM  

@Tad

So, let me see if I get this correct. Women are free to do what they want with their bodies under any circumstances as long as they are not infringing on the liberties of others?

So now someone has to ask you the obvious question, "when does a human being become a human being and earn rights?"

Anonymous Tad February 12, 2013 12:47 PM  

@Josh

So, the eight day old baby is consenting?

Yes, in the same respect they are consenting to be breast fed or seen by a doctor for ailments.

Anonymous Dan in Tx (P.S. Shut up Tad) February 12, 2013 12:51 PM  

Tad's right! Can't you all look around you at the wonderful utopia that is forming right before our eyes from tearing down the big bad patriarchal system?

Anonymous Anonymous February 12, 2013 12:51 PM  

No one addresses the obvious in regards to women making choices about "their bodies" when considering abortion. Since when does someone else's DNA constitute part of "your body"? Is it based on proximity? Or is it based on one body needing the other body in order to survive? In that case could it not be argued that whoever is nursing a newborn or holding the bottle for it can consider the newborn part of "his or her body" at the time due to the infant's reliance on him or her to survive?

If we can define one's body by looking at where one person's DNA stops and another's begins, why does the infant get no right to decide what happens to his or her body? (Similarly to the circumcision argument.)

Blogger The Observer February 12, 2013 12:52 PM  

False analogy. Breastfeeding or being seen by a doctor does not involve the removal of any body part, nor does it intrude on one's personal soverignity. The level of understanding involved in accepting a mother's breast is nowhere on the level of that required to give informed consent on a body-altering surgery, and being seen by a doctor is a proxy decision made by the infant's parents or guardians, and no consent is involved on the part of the infant.

Go on, dear.

Anonymous Anonymous February 12, 2013 12:55 PM  

What part of the mother's body is being removed during an abortion, as in those things which exist in her body prior to conception?

Blogger The Observer February 12, 2013 12:59 PM  

Well, it seems that my right to absolute personal soverignity will be compromised this fine day after all, and the world is just fine and dandy with it. Aah, the sweet smell of hypocrisy in the morning.

Anonymous Mystery Man February 12, 2013 1:01 PM  

And with Tad's response to Josh, his five comments are expended.

Pity.

Anonymous Josh February 12, 2013 1:01 PM  

Yes, in the same respect they are consenting to be breast fed or seen by a doctor for ailments.

So what things can the infant not consent to?

Blogger The Observer February 12, 2013 1:04 PM  

"Mohammed, dear, the new laws say we need to obtain consent from our daughter before circumcising her."

"Well, what did she do today?"

"Let's see...breastfed, spat up, gurgled and cooed, all in the space of one morning."

"She breastfed? That's good enough consent! All right, Minah dear, go ahead and take the glass shard to her labia. Dhe's clearly given consent."

Anonymous Lover February 12, 2013 1:05 PM  

Article is great but comment made by Joe that said 'Biology is destiny.' is something that really make me laughing in this context :)

Blogger tz February 12, 2013 1:08 PM  

Liberty does not mean the freedom to slaughter children because the mother - rarely did she not consent to the act which created it - finds the consequences inconvenient.

But there is a greater point. If the typical family has 5 children, it won't be led by a gamma and divorce will be harder. Today it is one or two brats that learn that pushing the gamma button causes the vending machine to produce.

Christians abandoned this tradition first - marry, but persue your respective educations and degrees and have kids later. That changes the definition of marriage - the only difference in gay marriage to this is the partners are of the same sex. But that is why they protest so vehemently - the difference is so small. A long married couple with a quiver full of arrows can look at a gay couple and laugh or deride knowing it is an absurdity. To an intentionally barren couple - or those who see nothing wrong - they have to find some other reason.

If you want a different society, start with valuing a different ideal of family. In this are not "conservatives" only different in degree, wanting to preserve only the skeletal form? And many children were the original form of old age pensions.

Blogger tz February 12, 2013 1:15 PM  

When we had large families, half the population was subjugated because they were too young to vote.

How is circumcision different from vaccination?

Anonymous 11B February 12, 2013 1:23 PM  

You can't count on people who advance the weird and biblical idea of patriarchy to be trusted to advance liberty for the individual.

Tad, what about the Founders? They obviously believed in a patriarchy and their bona fides in the field of individual liberty are as good as it gets.

Blogger James Dixon February 12, 2013 1:27 PM  

Guys, remember that Tad is on a 5 post per thread limit. He can't respond to everyone.

Blogger Nate February 12, 2013 1:40 PM  

"The "pro-life" position is decidedly anti-liberty, whether driven by secular notions of power or biblical notions of tyrannical patriarchy."

False.

the libertarian position is... you own your past, present, and future. Thus... abortion is anti liberty because it is denying a person their future precisely the same way murder does.

Owning one's past means accepting responsibility for decisions as well as reaping rewards of work. Abortion is an attempt to evade the consequences of stupid decisions through murder.

Anonymous Herman the German February 12, 2013 2:10 PM  

@ The Observer re: Tad

I am under the understanding, too, that you folks of the USA have this thing called Selective Service.

---Umm, yeah! I was conscripted into the German Bundeswehr, too before becoming an American citizen, Sir. Also, in addition to the draft here in the States, I know for a fact that Lakota Sioux are occasionally conscripted here as well. So there you have it. Oh, and Tad's comment about taxes being paid by ALL??? ---Priceless!! ROFL.

Anonymous Alexander February 12, 2013 2:38 PM  

Not only do we have Selective Service, Tad was required to sign himself up for it. This is not his usual weaseling around definitions or historical fact or even straight up denial of reality: this was deliberate lying to deny the obvious truth.

It's one thing to argue with Tad when he at least makes an effort. Sadly, his efforts here are well below par even by his own standards.

Anonymous bob k. mando February 12, 2013 2:45 PM  

this picture seems relevant:
http://www.the-spearhead.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/strapon.jpg

Anonymous DonReynolds February 12, 2013 3:20 PM  

Tennessee Tech has always been overwhelmingly male, normally 3 or 4 men for each female student. A few miles down the road is Middle Tennessee State University, which has always been the state teachers college, where the ratio was always reversed. At Tech, even the really fat women had a date every night. At Middle Tennessee, the hometown beauty queens were depressed and frustrated cause they seldom had a date on weekends. This chronic imbalance between the genders resulted in expected but still unusual behaviors. So the imbalance has been around for a long time, depending on the campus. But I can still remember when many colleges were NOT coed....either they were a college for men OR a college for women. It used to be a big deal that a college was "coed". Now we have coed dorms and coed floors in the coed dorms.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 12, 2013 3:27 PM  

I was wondering when you'd get to work.

But there's one thing. The Nation has not been and is not crippled...In any respect.

Capitalized "Nation". I tend to believe you furnish these emphases instinctively, as you would while speaking.

But I'll tell you how you could have seen it crippled: Adhere to a illogical, tyrannical, theocratic-driven concept of liberty by outlawing a woman's right to sovereignty over her own body.

"could have"- An expert use of modifiers to make our current position seem impotent.

And you obey the central tenet of manipulation to a fault: you appeal to something we value (liberty and logic), rather than something you value. If you ever psychologically projected (which I doubt, because you lack empathy), you no longer do.

My respect and disgust of you grow apace. You are a remarkable specimen.

You can't count on people who advance the weird and biblical...

Shoddy association building. You want us to associate "biblical" with something that we disvalue.

...idea of patriarchy to be trusted to advance liberty for the individual.

Central tenet again.

They will inevitably seek ways to subjugate women to their idea of God's will...

Who? Whom? Neoconservatives and libertarians. Divide and conquer.

and their own insistence on reserving male power at the expense of women's liberty.

Divide and conquer.

Blogger James Dixon February 12, 2013 3:29 PM  

> I am under the understanding, too, that you folks of the USA have this thing called Selective Service.

To be fair to Tad, Selective Service is merely registration for the draft, not the draft itself. Nixon shut down the draft in 1973, and we haven't had conscription since. However, Tad knows as well as we do that it could be reinstituted at any time.

Anonymous TJ February 12, 2013 3:34 PM  

FORTRAN was typically taught to real engineering students as it has a boatload of support for practical things like calculating loadings on a structure.

FORTRAN was still in use in 1999 at a major defense contractor when I worked in the simulation group on their ATLAS (Aircraft Trim Linearization And Simulation) sw LIBRARY that was used for 6-DOF simulations of the F-16, F-22, and JSF (now F-35). It was good for engineering calculations. aLSO, LAPACK (the gold standard for Linear Algebra (svd, eig, ETC) calculations) is still written in FORTRAN.

The Engineers nearly universally made better programmers than the CompSci guys.
I agree with this because the best SW engineers/architects I have known came from engineering backgrounds (myself included). By far the best SW architect I have known had an electrical engineering degree and played bass in a rock band.

I have also noticed that people with musical backgrounds (composition) seem to have talent in SW architecture.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 12, 2013 3:38 PM  

The "pro-life" position is decidedly anti-liberty, whether driven by secular notions of power or biblical notions of tyrannical patriarchy.

Never mind that you have been a clear supporter for secular power and tyranny in previous comments.

I'm beginning to understand. Language is, for you, not a tool for communicating. It's a tool for persuasion. You're also relentless and methodical about it. Chipping slowly, never blasting. Everything you say is like a little burrowing termite, until all the little bits add up and the whole building crashes down.

I can't imagine how good at this you must be in person, where there's no transcript and no one can spare a moment to remember what you've said because they need to pay attention to what you're saying now. You are a natural politician.

Anonymous Mina February 12, 2013 3:41 PM  

Circumcision is an elective surgery forced on a person who cannot consent ... the parent, a person who does not own the body or the penis in question, is the one who "elects" for the surgery.

Forcible removal of a foreskin from a penis, as an integral and ~physically important~ part of the organ, cannot even remotely be compared to vaccinations.

It's all very illegal and immoral. I hope all circumcisors burn in hell for all eternity.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 12, 2013 3:43 PM  


@The observer

There is no conscription
Circumcision is elective
You don't need permission for a vascectomy
Your sperm is yours
I can't help you with taxes: But they are paid by ALL


In other words, never. You have enough bread as it is, peasant. Now pay your taxes.

The point, here, is that you made no concessions. Not even an inch. I have never seen you concede an inch.

I am beginning to see what you value and how it could have evolved.

Anonymous Mina February 12, 2013 3:45 PM  

TJ February 12, 2013 3:34 PM:

I am an electrical engineer. I play the piano and the cello. I execute the notes real good but have zero talent. I love to play, though.

I think the comparison to programming and playing music is pretty spot on. However I am ten times more talented at programming (esp database stuff) than playing my instruments.

Wonder what that means?

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 12, 2013 3:53 PM  

Yes, in the same respect they are consenting to be breast fed or seen by a doctor for ailments.

You don't believe in free will in the abstract or in practice. But I could have guessed that. More interestingly, I can envision that this is how you also view the "consent" of the masses to be led and pay tribute. Precisely the same as a baby consenting to be fed.

And because it's a game of inches (see above), you must be unbelievably patient by nature. It probably doesn't require effort. In practice you are entirely unlike a cro magnon-type psychopath, who lacks any restraint. Yet in the abstract, this is only possible because you lack the intense, short-term impulses.

Anonymous The Next to Last Samurai February 12, 2013 3:53 PM  

I think feminists hate everybody; men, women, kids, butterflies, chipmunks...I wouldn't be surprised if they are even mean to their cats when no one is looking. (grin.)

I get the impression most of you are much younger than I am, so I will point out that today's feminism is much sneakiier than that of the '70's and '80's. If any of you have parents or grandparents who keep old magazines, check out New Woman magazine.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 12, 2013 3:57 PM  

Guys, remember that Tad is on a 5 post per thread limit. He can't respond to everyone.

That would ruin my case study. I especially want to learn what his attitudes toward family and genetic legacy are. I have a theory that needs testing.

Anonymous Mina February 12, 2013 4:06 PM  

I think I used to be a feminist but I am not sure. I was sent to college by my super intelligent father who was convinced that I would save the world with my superior brain.

Along the lines I picked up a lot of traditionally male activities and became good at them: farm work, riding, weight lifting, engineering, mathematics.

I wonder if a lot of women just don't know why they are feminists or don't know what feminism is about. Myself I am very sure no one ever sat me down and explained what a woman's role was supposed to be. Meanwhile my dad cooked all of our meals (he was a great cook), showed me how to shoot, encouraged my technical pursuits and sent me off to college.

Seems like I got a lot of weird crossed signals and only by observing myself and noticing my interactions with my husband in the past couple of years did I start to get a clue what feminism is and why it's a bad thing. And I'm almost 50!

Somewhere along the line I feel like I really missed something that was supposed to give me more direction. I don't know what but maybe that's why women today are floundering around they way they do.

No answers just observations.

Anonymous Mina February 12, 2013 4:18 PM  

The other skeptic February 12, 2013 11:16 AM:

I decided I wanted to learn MySQL and PHP. So I wrote a program to track and report on my workout routine using a web based interface.

I also ran the program on a Linux box so I was forced (as a Windows grunt) to learn some Unix in order to navigate around and learn the OS a little bit.

Everything was free to download, I just needed to build a box to run it all on from parts I had laying around.

MySQL/php seems to be a pretty hot combination at the moment. and of course you can't go wrong having database experience (IMO)

I saw someone recommend Mint a few weeks ago vs Ubuntu. Is that a good distribution? Anyone have any experience with it? I like a good gui since I am still pretty clueless with the command line ...

Blogger Acksiom February 12, 2013 4:22 PM  

Simply put, circumcision is different from vaccination in that:

Circumcision is a non-therapeutic amputation that causes permanent significant losses of multiple genital functions, while

Inversely, vaccination is a prophylactic improvement of the immune system that causes semi-permanent significant gains of defense against infections.

Let me put it this way. You just effectively asked what the difference is between vaccination and cutting off most to all of a baby girl's labia and clitoral hood, then stripping out at least a 1/4-inch wide ring of her frontmost inner vaginal skin, and finally clamping the two remaining raw edges of skin against each other under thousands of pounds of pressure until they roughly and randomly seal together.

Because based on what we know so far, that's about the closest equivalent for females to the normal consequences of circumcision for males, including the effects on the preputial gliding action, the keratinization, or callusing, of the glans and remaining foreskin, and so on.

Years ago I came up with a simple kinesthetic demonstration of circumcision's harmful effects that anyone can do with just their hands, but I'm going to wait for Vox's GA before I post it.

Anonymous Mina February 12, 2013 4:30 PM  

Acksiom February 12, 2013 4:22 PM:

Thank you! I eagerly await your demonstration. Would love to send that to Intact America, NOCIRC and The Whole Network.

They need all of the help they can get to make circumcision illegal and a thing of the past.

Blogger tz February 12, 2013 4:54 PM  

Yes, they are different:

"You let some idiot dressed in a white coat inject organic mercury, dead animal stuff, and live viruses directly in my bloodstream, all at the same time, and when I got really, really sick you didn't care or found out that you couldn't sue even though I was badly hurt by that junk? I would never have consented to that!"

Hey - maybe the autistic can sue their parents.

Occasionally there is a botched circumcision - and the medical personnel responsible are liable.

When children DIE of complications from vaccination there is a kangaroo court and legal immunity.

That is another significant difference.

Infant vaccinations are every bit forced upon a person who cannot consent, however because the warren wants it, no matter how toxic, how many suffer severe side-effects, the warren accepts it.

Note: Circumcision (male) greatly reduces the chances of contracting HIV. So technically, circumcision is in this sense the same thing as vaccination - it can lower the chances of contracting a very serious disease. So if it is reasonable to vaccinate infants against HPV or HBV (both STDs!), why is it not reasonable to perform a surgery with a lower chance of side-effects, doesn't contain organic trash, and can prevent disease?

Blogger tz February 12, 2013 4:58 PM  

You know this is a very open blog when the discussion drifts to MySQL, PHP, and FORTRAN. Time to keypunch the hollerith card with it's EBCEDIC variant, but make sure not to go past column 72 - but you can always punch column 6...

It's bad enough when you date yourself. It's worse when it is carbon dating. It is atrocious when it is a blind date.

Anonymous OCS February 12, 2013 5:12 PM  

I saw someone recommend Mint a few weeks ago vs Ubuntu. Is that a good distribution? Anyone have any experience with it? I like a good gui since I am still pretty clueless with the command line ...

You can google XAMPP as it bundles Apache, MySQL, PHP, and Perl in one nice little distribution. It also comes with phpMyAdmin and other modules.

Blogger Acksiom February 12, 2013 5:13 PM  

Oh, I know, Mina. I've been an intactivist for many years now.

It seems my personal copies were on the drive that died recently, but fortunately there are still a few examples online. This one is just past halfway down the page, in post #15:

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/282748/question

Hm. It's almost ten years old now? I guess so. I don't know why this model isn't better known; it usually got rave reviews.

Anonymous Mina February 12, 2013 5:17 PM  

"why is it not reasonable to perform a surgery with a lower chance of side-effects, doesn't contain organic trash, and can prevent disease?"

(in applying this argument to infant circumcision), Because:

A. It's body-altering Surgery

B. You're removing a part of someone's body, to which that person and only that person, has sovereign right over

C. The Person cannot consent and it is unknown if they were able to consent if they would consent

D. The part you are removing has several important Functions

E. All of your data about "preventing" problems are actually false and even if you believe they are true it doesn't matter, you cannot justify all of the above based on "preventing" something that has a tiny microcosm of happening in the future, esp when all better prevented with good hygiene and judgement.

F. Children die from circumcision as well as many more who are mutilated by the surgery (you could make an argument that even a well-done circumcision is a mutilation but I'll leave it at that for now.)

G. and ~ most importantly ~ if the person wants it done and believes all of your ridiculous data in favor of circumcision, that person is 100% free to elect to have the surgery done when he is of the age of consent.

I always love how people seem to think the foreskin is just a piece of trash to throw away. If you haven't one (or if you are a woman and haven't "had" one) then you are in absolutely zero position to make a judgement as to its worth.

Name one other body part that people see as "disposable" as a foreskin. Does anyone really believe that nature or G-d would install something on your sex organs that you Didn't Need? Ludicrous.

Anonymous Mina February 12, 2013 5:23 PM  

Frankly Speaking - I have some of your writings on my web site at stopcirc.com. Frank's fund, right?

Anonymous realmatt February 12, 2013 5:25 PM  

Can you find another blog where a comment section on feminism's effect on the university system in the United States leads to a discussion on circumsicion and Linux?

I can not.

Anonymous Mina February 12, 2013 5:26 PM  

OCS February 12, 2013 5:12 PM:

Thanks. How's the GUI, being newbie / novice Linux I am pretty dependent on the interface. It's the major thing I love about Ubuntu.

Anonymous Mina February 12, 2013 5:31 PM  

Acksiom February 12, 2013 5:13 PM: Sorry in my excitement I was sure you were Frank. I used to troll the debate boards back in 1999/2000 probably up until about 2004.

I do remember your userID. I used "webmistress32" back then. I got involved when I was pregnant with what I hoped was a boy. He's 12 now and knows about circumcision. He's mortified by the thought that parents would cut foreskins off babies ... I try not to get into it with him. TMI at his age I think.

Sorry for completely derailing the thread. I did make at least one on-topic post to pay for the two tangents.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 12, 2013 5:32 PM  

I second that question. I'm also running Ubuntu and looking to jump ship.

Blogger Acksiom February 12, 2013 5:38 PM  

"Note: Circumcision (male) greatly reduces the chances of contracting HIV."

No, actually, it doesn't. If it did, the HIV/AIDS incidence rates in the mostly intact and best usa-comparable european nations would not be several times lower than they are in the mostly mutilated usa.

Furthermore, even if circumcision did provide a protective effect, that inverse ratio to the european nations would mean that there necessarily exist behavioral or other factors among the european populations that are so strong against HIV/AIDS infection that they can overcome any advantage provided by male preputial mutilation by at least an order of magnitude. Which means that we should be figuring out what those 10X+ factors are instead of wasting our time further industrially commoditizing the erogenous flesh of our own children.

In short, the european inverse ratio demonstrates that any positive effects from male preputial mutilation against HIV/AIDS incidence must be too tiny and trivial to even be worth considering.

Finally, if a mostly-intact comparable population has a lower infection rate despite being intact, while a mostly-mutilated baseline population has a higher one, the most likely reason is. . .being intact.

So in all likelihood, you are actually increasing people's risk of HIV/AIDS by spreading lies and misinformation.

". . .why is it not reasonable to perform a surgery with a lower chance of side-effects, doesn't contain organic trash, and can prevent disease?"

For the same reasons it's not reasonable to permanently amputate any other normal, healthy, functional human body part without a direct medical health necessity.

The same reasons why it's not reasonable to cut off most to all of a baby girl's labia and clitoral hood, then strip out at least a 1/4-inch wide ring of her frontmost inner vaginal skin, and finally clamp the two remaining raw edges of skin against each other under thousands of pounds of pressure until they roughly and randomly seal together.

Y'know, the same default standard that applies to almost every other normal, healthy, functional human body part.

The few african (mostly) studies supposedly supporting your claim are pseudo-science. They've been eviscerated in professional criticism. So please stop spreading lies and misinformation that increase the abusive mutilation of innocents. Vaccination being as bad as you think does not in any way whatsoever make male preputial mutilation even remotely the slightest bit better than it is.

Blogger Acksiom February 12, 2013 5:50 PM  

"I used 'webmistress32' back then. I got involved when I was pregnant with what I hoped was a boy. He's 12 now and knows about circumcision."

O HAI!
U UPGRADED YOUR PRAM!

Good to meet you again. I miss Frank.

I don't miss the RFR, although I'm glad I did it. Two years was more than enough; I burned out, but it eventually showed me the final proof against male preputial mutilation that ends the argument once and for all.

Anonymous Mina February 12, 2013 6:05 PM  

"but it eventually showed me the final proof against male preputial mutilation that ends the argument once and for all."

the hand demonstration? it's very good. I think I am going to post it on my site. :-)

Anonymous Mystery Man February 12, 2013 6:11 PM  

Does anyone really believe that nature or G-d would install something on your sex organs that you Didn't Need? Ludicrous.

And particularly horrifying is the idea that anyone would order it be cut off before he could consent. Evil, horrible, disgusting. No one who would mandate the removal of this vital, integral, and indispensable organ of a man's body deserves your attention in the least, much less any sort of sovereignty...

Anonymous Mystery Man February 12, 2013 6:12 PM  

*he = the child. Not "anyone". Pronouns are hard.

Blogger James Dixon February 12, 2013 6:23 PM  

> I saw someone recommend Mint a few weeks ago vs Ubuntu. Is that a good distribution?

The most recent versions of Ubuntu have completely changed the user interface, going with a more smart phone type look and feel. Somewhat like Windows 8.

Mint is an Ubuntu derivative which tries to keep the old desktop interface intact. You can download versions with the XFCE desktop, the KDE desktop, a fork of the old Gnome 2 desktop, or the new Gnome 3 desktop with Mint specific customizations to make it more like the old Gnome 2. There's even an XFCE version based directly off of Debian rather than Ubuntu (Ubuntu is a Debian derivative).

So it depends entirely upon what you're looking for. If you're looking for a classic desktop interface, Mint is better. If you don't mind Ubuntu's new user interface, it's probably better to stick with it. The only real advantage Mint offers in that case is that it has the various multimedia codecs preloaded for you.

Since most people still seem to be more comfortable with the old desktop user interface, I recommend Mint to most people.

I don't use either, I use Slackware. But then I've been using it since 1994.

Blogger Acksiom February 12, 2013 6:33 PM  

No, it's the fact that it's wrong by default. The hand model's good, but it's not the killer app.

The killer app is understanding that male preputial mutilation is wrong by default, and the onus is on the abusers to prove otherwise.

It's wrong to do it to any other normal, healthy, functional human body part, regardless of religious or supposedly prophylactic medical reasons. That's the default, abstract standard. Therefore it is wrong to do it to the male prepuce, for all the same basic reasons.

If the only element in the reasoning that changes is the male prepuce, then the only thing that can justify such an extreme and extraordinary exception to that standard is the male prepuce itself.

Likewise, if religious rights and normal, standard medical ethics by default can't be used to justify doing it to any other normal, healthy, functional human body parts, then again, they can't be used to justify doing it to the male prepuce, either. If people want to make an extreme and extraordinary exception to that, the onus is on them to provide a sufficiently extreme and extraordinary justification.

Yeah, good luck with that, you modern-day minor molochists.

The one single simple lie that has caused so much trouble is the wholly disproven necessary presumption that the male prepuce just. . .somehow, magically!. . .does not possess the same basic, fundamentally intrisic value that makes the permanent amputation of any other normal, healthy, functional human body part wrong.

But it does, by default.

Take that stance, don't allow them to distract or divert you, keep hammering them on providing a replicable, objective proof why the male prepuce alone should be subject to a different standard, and the argument's effectively over.

Anonymous Pinakeli February 12, 2013 6:35 PM  

I started with Slackware, switched to RedHat in 1997 because of the update ease. I switched to SuSE in 1999 due to RedHat not working on my laptop.

That said, I continue to use openSUSE since it has not changed the administration much and it is very much like IRIX, which I learned as my first UNIX.

I would suggest that you find someone near you that uses one or more of these and then download live DVD of each. That way you can see what you are most comfortable with. The advantage of finding someone who administers one locally is the ease of getting questions answered with a demonstration.

As far as desktops, KDE would probably be easiest for a Windows 7/XP user to pick up quickly. GNOME, maybe. But GNOME annoys me by taking away features that I use sometimes with new releases.

Focus follows mouse is the UNIX way. Click to focus is the Windows way. Stop taking away the UNIX way!

Blogger James Dixon February 12, 2013 6:38 PM  

> The killer app is understanding that male preputial mutilation is wrong by default, and the onus is on the abusers to prove otherwise.

To this day, I'm very glad that I was born at home and not at a hospital, and thus spared mutilation.

Anonymous Pinakeli February 12, 2013 6:40 PM  

TJ February 12, 2013 3:34 PM

FORTRAN was typically taught to real engineering students as it has a boatload of support for practical things like calculating loadings on a structure.

FORTRAN was still in use in 1999 at a major defense contractor when I worked in the simulation group on their ATLAS (Aircraft Trim Linearization And Simulation) sw LIBRARY that was used for 6-DOF simulations of the F-16, F-22, and JSF (now F-35). It was good for engineering calculations. aLSO, LAPACK (the gold standard for Linear Algebra (svd, eig, ETC) calculations) is still written in FORTRAN.

The Engineers nearly universally made better programmers than the CompSci guys.
I agree with this because the best SW engineers/architects I have known came from engineering backgrounds (myself included). By far the best SW architect I have known had an electrical engineering degree and played bass in a rock band.

I have also noticed that people with musical backgrounds (composition) seem to have talent in SW architecture.


TJ, is you could see what they have done to the ATLAS model you would cry. I left there two years ago, but one of my friends is trying to adapt it for the T50. Three months now and it is almost compiling again on Linux. someone really messed it up as far as using vendor specific system calls.

And, by the way, I became a much better C programmer when I finally forgot all I knew about BASIC/FORTRAN!

Blogger James Dixon February 12, 2013 6:42 PM  

> I would suggest that you find someone near you that uses one or more of these and then download live DVD of each.

Seconded. All of the DVD's are a free download. You can try all of them out without touching your current installation (even Windows) and see what you like best.

Anonymous Pinakeli February 12, 2013 6:48 PM  

Programming is a talent. It does not seem to be related to any other talent, except that musical talent is recognized so musical people have the tools already to exploit their natural ability.

When it is treated as a science people spend way too much time learning the technical part and not enough learning whether or not they can see the real problems they are hired to solve.

Anonymous Mina February 12, 2013 6:53 PM  

"No, it's the fact that it's wrong by default."

I agree. Everything else presented during debate is lies and obfuscation.

I love your strategy. Simple. Elegant. 100% factually correct.

Sometimes I really can't believe they haven't outlawed it by now.

Anonymous Mina February 12, 2013 6:55 PM  

James Dixon February 12, 2013 6:23 PM (and others who also provided recommendations):

Thank you.

I am definitely going to try Mint next. I'll get the Live DVD and give it a test run first.

Blogger James Dixon February 12, 2013 6:56 PM  

> Sometimes I really can't believe they haven't outlawed it by now.

Well, certain ethnic circles seem to carry undue weight in that matter. :(

Anonymous Mystery Man February 12, 2013 7:04 PM  

No, it's the fact that it's wrong by default.

And anyone who would command such a thing as a regular practice is evil.

Let man decide his own morals! Non serviam!

Anonymous Mina February 12, 2013 7:08 PM  

I am supportive of a man of age deciding for himself to have an elective surgery of whatever kind he likes, including his penis.

To have adults choosing surgery of the penis for babies is just completely wrong in every way. I don't care what religion you subscribe to.

There is just no reason not to wait and let the person choose for himself.

Blogger Duke of Earl February 12, 2013 7:29 PM  

If something is commanded by God, then it is "by default" moral and correct.

It could be argued that circumcision is unnecessary for non-Jewish males, as Paul did, but that does not make the procedure immoral.

As a circumcised male I've never missed having a foreskin, and everything functions quite normally.

Since God never commanded female genital mutilation (if I recall correctly it's an African ethnic practise, not specifically religious) and it is an act of mutilation, then it can indeed be ruled immoral by default.

That the nature of these two procedures is entirely different can be seen in the fact that doctors will perform circumcisions on men in response to certain conditions. I have never heard of any practitioner of medicine recommending female genital mutilation under any circumstances.

Male circumcision is generally unnecessary, but morally neutral, female mutilation is morally wrong.

Blogger James Dixon February 12, 2013 7:36 PM  

> It could be argued that circumcision is unnecessary for non-Jewish males,


Could be? I'd say the arguments are fairly conclusive.

> As a circumcised male I've never missed having a foreskin, and everything functions quite normally.

I've heard of lots of people who would disagree with you about that. Not having any basis for comparison, I couldn't say personally.

Blogger Duke of Earl February 12, 2013 7:45 PM  

I've heard of lots of people who would disagree with you about that. Not having any basis for comparison, I couldn't say personally.

Medical evidence suggests that there's little change overall.

An interesting quote.

A study in the San Francisco Bay Area conducted by notable anti-circumcision activists and funded by NOCIRC measured "fine-touch pressure thresholds" at 19 locations on the uncircumcised and 11 on the circumcised penis [Sorrells et al., 2007]. Although the authors claimed that their study showed the glans of the uncircumcised penis to be more sensitive than the circumcised, this is false, as analysis of their data by Waskett & Morris showed there was in fact no statistical difference [Waskett & Morris, 2007]. Despite other claims, the actual statistics in the NOCIRC paper showed a marginally significant difference (P = 0.03) only for the orifice rim. However, their statistical analysis was naïve and incomplete.

When Waskett & Morris then conducted a Bonferroni correction on their data, as should have been done by the authors, in order to eliminate false positives arising from the multiple testing they carried out, this marginal statistical difference disappeared [Waskett & Morris, 2007]. Their data thus showed there was no difference in sensitivity between the circumcised and uncircumcised penis. Moreover, serious design flaws, subjects in the Methods who were unaccounted for in the data presented in their Results section, biased presentation, and other omissions make this study lack any credibility whatsoever [Waskett & Morris, 2007].

Blogger Acksiom February 12, 2013 7:46 PM  

> I love your strategy. Simple. Elegant. 100% factually correct.

Thank you. Those characteristics are most of what I strive for, so it's very gratifying to see someone else identify them in my work.

>> Sometimes I really can't believe they haven't outlawed it by now.

> Well, certain ethnic circles seem to carry undue weight in that matter. :(

Actually, I think they're mostly just being used for cover. As with so many other institutionalized examples of blatant bigotry against men and boys, ultimately it's all about the money. I am starting to get the impression that male prepuces comprise a non-trivial share of the bioindustrial research and manufacturing complex in the usa. I'm beginning to suspect that the OB/GYN fees are just the tip of the iceberg, and that the adcopy cliche about how "One foreskin can be used for decades to grow $100,000 worth of fibroblasts," is weasel-worded -- via that "can" -- to conceal just how many male foreskins are actually rolling through the market. (cf. http://voices.yahoo.com/human-foreskins-big-business-cosmetics-201840.html )

"Can" could easily mean "highest achievements of duration and product recorded," with the average returns being much, much lower, which in turn would mean much, much greater demand than is being revealed.

So by my Unified Men's Liberation Theory, I don't think it's going to be outlawed unless and until the money stream dries up. . .or we crowdsource a better alternative.

Anonymous TJ February 12, 2013 7:48 PM  

@ Pinakeli

TJ, is you could see what they have done to the ATLAS model you would cry.

Is it a mess because they tried to make a desktop realtime simulator out of ATLAS that runs on Linux?

One of the things the flight controls manager there had me work on was to investigate making ATLAS run realtime on a NT Workstation (using a product called INtime that had deterministic realtime extensions for Windows NT.) Another engineer looked at making it run realtime on UNIX/Linux around the same time (which was way easier but most flight controls engineers had NT workstations back then).

It sounds like the Linux solution won out. It probably made that nice Mormon guy that maintained ATLAS cry too.

Anonymous TJ February 12, 2013 8:04 PM  

@Mina

To have adults choosing surgery of the penis for babies is just completely wrong in every way. I don't care what religion you subscribe to.

There is just no reason not to wait and let the person choose for himself.


It is probably much more painful to have that "ant eater" removed when you are older (and at which point you can remember the pain in detail)

By my anecdotal evidence, most white US women have never even seen an uncircumsized johnson staring them in the face. But it wasn't mine ... because as I tell the jewish girls, I'm kosher.

Blogger James Dixon February 12, 2013 8:20 PM  

> It is probably much more painful to have that "ant eater" removed when you are older (and at which point you can remember the pain in detail)

Why? I've heard that children have a more sensitive sense of touch than adults.

And remembering the pain merely means fewer people would be dumb enough to do it. But you have no hesitation in subjecting a child to a pain you probably would never willingly undergo yourself as an adult.

Blogger Acksiom February 12, 2013 8:32 PM  

>If something is commanded by God, then it is "by default" moral and correct.

And just as soon as you can replicably prove to the non-faithful that the creator did command something, that will be relevant to the discussion.

However, unless and until you do, it isn't relevant, and you're not excused on those grounds from the same secular social contract of basic human rights that you rely upon to protect you from other people's faith-based assaults.

>As a circumcised male I've never missed having a foreskin, and everything functions quite normally.

How, exactly, do you know? How much gliding action have you lost? How much keratinization has occurred to your unnaturally exposed junctional mucosa? What are the other routine negative consequences of male preputial mutilation, and how do you know you've escaped them?

>Since God never commanded female genital mutilation (if I recall correctly it's an African ethnic practise, not specifically religious)

You don't. It's one of the recommended practices in Islam, and by the standards you just asserted yourself, that's close enough.

> and it is an act of mutilation, then it can indeed be ruled immoral by default.

The objective, real-world definition of mutilation doesn't change because of your religious beliefs, and if female genital amputation meets it, so too does male genital amputation, by default.

The foreskin has the same basic, fundamentally intrinsic value that every other normal, healthy, functional human body part possesses. If someone claimed the creator had commanded them to amputate certain parts of your family's bodies, would you just meekly accede to it?

No?

Then why exactly should the rest of us meekly accede to your (hypo) claim that the creator commanded you to have certain parts of your family members' bodies amputated?

Blogger Acksiom February 12, 2013 8:36 PM  

>An interesting quote.

A lot more interesting than you realize, I think.

Jake Waskett over in the UK is a known circumfetishist and there's been indications that Brian Morris down under is one also. Please do more research into your sources:

http://www.circleaks.org/index.php?title=Jake_H._Waskett

http://www.circleaks.org/index.php?title=Brian_Morris

See? In defense of your position you just tried to cite a couple of guys who like to hang out with pedophiles, to trade pedophile mutilation fetishist pr0n, to sexually fantasize about genitally mutilating little boys. . .

. . .do I really need to continue the list?

Blogger Acksiom February 12, 2013 8:37 PM  

[cont.]

I'm still looking for the actual page at Wiley's, but TTBOMK this rebuttal to Waskett and Morris's perversion which you attempted to cite is accurate:

Young's response to Morris' criticism of Sorrells is as follows:

"Waskett and Morris [1] complain that Sorrells et al. [2]‘fail to compare the same points on the circumcised and uncircumcised penis’, but Sorrells et al. compared 12 points that the two have in common, as well as five the circumcised penis does not have, and two (of scar tissue) that only the circumcised penis has. By disregarding those seven points (which they miscount) in their table, Waskett and Morris have removed the major source of difference and restored the major fault of the undocumented, unreviewed and vaguely described (but widely quoted) study by Masters and Johnson [3], that of ignoring the foreskin.

Each of the points at which Sorrells et al. measured stands surrogate for a surrounding area of the penis, of varying size. The areas corresponding to the two points of circumcised scar tissue (which were the most sensitive points on the circumcised penis) are very small; those of the foreskin, as sensitive or more so, amount to half or more of the average penile skin [4]. The Bonferroni correction is not applicable because only one hypothesis is being tested.

Sorrells et al. found not only that the foreskin is more sensitive than most of the rest of the penis, but that the exposed corona glandis, at least, of the circumcised penis is slightly less sensitive than that of the intact penis. The Waskett and Morris critique of the selection process in misplaced. Are they suggesting that one’s attitude toward circumcision differentially affects the outcome of a ‘blinded’ test of penile sensitivity, according to the subjects’ circumcision status?

Their reliance on the study of Williamson and Williamson [5] is misguided. In that survey, of Iowa women who had just given birth to boys, the useable response rate was only 54%, of whom only 16.5% (24 women) had experience of both kinds of penis.

They write ‘The existence of a market for lidocaine-based products to reduce penile sensitivity attests to the desire by some men for a penis with reduced, not heightened, sensitivity’ but they give no indication of what proportion of that market comprises circumcised men. ‘Sensitivity’ is not one-dimensional. There are issues of the quality of the sensation from different areas, and that from the scarred area of a circumcised penis might be confounded by the presence of iatrogenic neuromata, sensitive only to pain. A circumcised man might well benefit by having such sensations dulled.

They say that ‘sexual sensation depends upon the types of mechanical stimulation generated during intercourse, which might in turn be influenced by circumcision status’. Indeed they might, especially by the rolling action, or its lack, of the foreskin. There are many anecdotal accounts (including but not limited to those collected by O’Hara and O’Hara [6], both first- and second-hand, of circumcised men having to thrust harder and longer to achieve ejaculation, as you would expect when the great majority of the fine-touch receptors, which Waskett and Morris dismiss, have been removed. Formal confirmation or disproof of this awaits another (more rigorous) ‘Masters and Johnson’.

Circumcision is a ‘cure’ looking for a disease. Morris [7] even promotes it to prevent zipper injuries! That the foreskin itself has a sexual function was well-known for centuries before secular circumcision became widespread [8]. What would need to be proved rigorously is that excising a significant part of the distal penis does not diminish sexual pleasure."

So, no. Bottom line, you just let yourself get punked by a bunch of pedophile mutilation fetishists because you couldn't be bothered to do even the most minimal amount of source-checking.

Blogger Acksiom February 12, 2013 8:44 PM  

>It is probably much more painful to have that "ant eater" removed when you are older (and at which point you can remember the pain in detail)

How do you come to that conclusion? How did you compensate for the ripping of the synechial membrane off the infant glans? What about the much greater difficulty of infant anesthesia, including the consequential increased occurrences of underdosing, and the inability to communicate verbally? What did you find more painful in the adult case than the burning sensation on the raw wound for weeks afterwards as urine fills the infant's diaper?

Anonymous Mina February 12, 2013 9:01 PM  

It is probably much more painful to have that "ant eater" removed when you are older (and at which point you can remember the pain in detail)

Offensive statements coupled with implied false facts.

This is a very typical response by circumsized men who are uninterested in understanding the truth about circumcision.

Can't really blame them. I blame the system.

Blogger Acksiom February 12, 2013 9:04 PM  

Aaand to bring this back around topically to feminism and higher education for Vox:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2276006/Nurse-Grace-Adeleye-caused-baby-boy-bleed-death-botched-home-circumcision-walks-free-court.html

Anonymous Mina February 12, 2013 9:08 PM  

You really have to wonder about the motivations of people who go out of their way to cut on a baby boy's penis.



Anonymous TJ February 12, 2013 9:09 PM  

@Acksiom,

Any man who was circumscized as an infant recalls none of that pain. I know I don't and that is why I said "probably".

The procedure now days provides for pain relief for the infant:
http://www.webmd.com/parenting/baby/news/20060720/doctors-now-ease-pain-of-circumcision

This topic also came up a few months ago among my guy friends when a girlfriend who was with us at the pub said that she chose not to have her newborn son circumsized. The other 3-4 guys almost simultaneously said "What the f&*k?!! Why would you not do it?" ... as if they could not imagine not being circumscized ... and took pride in the fact. I too wouldn't have it any other way.

The procedure has benefits and also has become much simpler:
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-07-25/national/35487885_1_circumcision-rate-of-hiv-infection-african-men

Anonymous Mina February 12, 2013 9:15 PM  

Willful ignorance.

So unpretty.

Blogger Acksiom February 12, 2013 9:30 PM  

>That the nature of these two procedures is entirely different

Entirely? There are no similarities whatsoever?

>can be seen in the fact that doctors will perform circumcisions on men in response to certain conditions.

How, exactly, is it seen in that? Please explain clearly.

>I have never heard of any practitioner of medicine recommending female genital mutilation under any circumstances.

And how exactly is your ignorance on that matter supposed to prove anything?

It happens. Back in 2010 the AAP tried to change their policies to allow for ritual nicks in the hopes of preventing greater cutting of young girls. There are reports of other examples available online. Medical insurance policies in the usa were still paying out for female genital cutting as late as the 1960s.

>Male circumcision is generally unnecessary, but morally neutral, female mutilation is morally wrong.

No; again, because the male prepuce has the same basic, fundamentally intrinsic value that is assigned to all normal, healthy, functional body parts by default, its amputation is every bit as morally wrong as well.

Children do not come with disposable parts, and your zeal to claim otherwise has left you trying to cite at least one pedophilic mutilation fetishist and probably another, or at the very least an enabler of pedophilic mutilation fetishism.

Anonymous Pinakeli February 12, 2013 9:50 PM  

TJ February 12, 2013 7:48 PM

@ Pinakeli

TJ, is you could see what they have done to the ATLAS model you would cry.


Is it a mess because they tried to make a desktop realtime simulator out of ATLAS that runs on Linux?

One of the things the flight controls manager there had me work on was to investigate making ATLAS run realtime on a NT Workstation (using a product called INtime that had deterministic realtime extensions for Windows NT.) Another engineer looked at making it run realtime on UNIX/Linux around the same time (which was way easier but most flight controls engineers had NT workstations back then).

It sounds like the Linux solution won out. It probably made that nice Mormon guy that maintained ATLAS cry too.


That might explain why they set it to run at 128 Hz instead of 125. NT used a strange clock, but the hardware runs reliably at 100 and 125 (some at 250).

The changes were made several years ago. The Linux port is recent. The code is very ugly now.

I worked on it in the late '90s, but didn't look at the code. The ATLAS group brought it up while my group integrated their API into the FalconSTAR for a training session.

It was still classified at that time, so it could not be shown outside the area. We ran the W1X for most applications.

And I was so glad to kill NT for simulation, but now they run it on XP. Way more expensive, and many of the Ft. Worth FSL people have no clue how to make code portable and clean.

Blogger Acksiom February 12, 2013 10:08 PM  

>Any man who was circumscized as an infant recalls none of that pain. I know I don't and that is why I said "probably".

[shrug] So? Why is that supposed to be relevant?

Also, why do you expect adults to be deliberately and intentionally remembering what little also-anesthetized pain they had to go through? Aren't they much more likely to deliberately and intentionally forget it and not remind themselves of it?

Finally, why are you assuming that an adult will have this done to them? Is 'No Pain' not less than 'Some Pain' for pretty much everybody?

>The procedure now days provides for pain relief for the infant:
http://www.webmd.com/parenting/baby/news/20060720/doctors-now-ease-pain-of-circumcision

And where exactly in that article do they address my points about the much greater difficulty of infant anesthesia, including the consequential increased occurrences of underdosing, and the inability to communicate verbally? Or the burning sensation on the raw wound for weeks afterwards as urine fills the infant's diaper?

Because I'm not seeing that anywhere in it, and all your article appears to do is point out that they're finally, after decades of doing it without any anesthesia at all, starting to regularize its use.

That doesn't address the infant's inability to ask for pain meds vs. the adults.

It doesn't address the obvious increase in pain from more often underdosing infants because of their greater anesthesia risks vs. the adult's lesser ones from his orders of magnitude larger and more reliable metabolism.

It doesn't address the infant's incontinence and the burning pain of urine on a raw bleeding penis vs. the adult's ability to chose time, place, bandaging, pain meds, etc. . . .

>This topic also came up a few months ago among my guy friends when a girlfriend who was with us at the pub said that she chose not to have her newborn son circumsized. The other 3-4 guys almost simultaneously said "What the f&*k?!! Why would you not do it?" ... as if they could not imagine not being circumscized ... and took pride in the fact. I too wouldn't have it any other way.

[shrug] So? Are you trying to argue that consensus creates or changes facts? Why should anybody care what your guy friends prefer? Are they supposed to be some kind of experts on the subject?

>The procedure has benefits

[shrug] So?

How exactly are these claimed benefits -- which remain disputed -- supposed to outweigh the inherent and inescapable harms of male preputial mutilation? What metrics did you use to make that comparison?

>and also has become much simpler:
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-07-25/national/35487885_1_circumcision-rate-of-hiv-infection-african-men

[shrug] So?

Exactly what about it becoming simpler is supposed to make it any less abusive and wrong?

Anonymous Mina February 12, 2013 10:16 PM  

...and of course none of that disputes the right of the baby boy to his whole body when he's a man and can choose what he wants vs. having to live with and adjust to decisions made for his body by other people.

Anonymous The OASF February 12, 2013 11:06 PM  

The water supply is already poisoned.

Just sayin'....

Anonymous TJ February 12, 2013 11:07 PM  

@Acksiom
So? Are you trying to argue that consensus creates or changes facts? Why should anybody care what your guy friends prefer?


The consensus does not change the fact that of course the procedure involves pain or the fact that it reduces the transmission of AIDS and other STDs.

"Male circumcision reduces the risk that a man will acquire HIV from an infected female partner, and also lowers the risk of other STDs , penile cancer, and infant urinary tract infection. In female partners, it reduces the risk of cervical cancer, genital ulceration, bacterial vaginosis, trichomoniasis, and HPV. Although male circumcision has risks including pain, bleeding, and infection, more serious complications are rare. "
Source: http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/malecircumcision/

Are they supposed to be some kind of experts on the subject?
They are experts on their personal preferences. If it is abuse as you say it is,
then where are all the pissed off straight* American circumsized men? Has Oprah
or the View had a show yet on these poor fellas?

Presumably there should be millions of straight* men out there that are unhappy that this descision was made without their consent. Where are they?

* I use "straight" because I have been seeing a push to ban circumscision coming from homosexual organizations the last 3-4 years.

Anonymous The OASF February 12, 2013 11:12 PM  

Per Nate... "I mean are people really so stupid they think nursing is a modern advancement?"

In the Great White Zimbabwe it's the next bubble about to burst lmao.

On a more serious note (I think)... remove this useless "profession" alone from the US jobs numbers and you have the most unproductive, defunct economy in all history.

Anonymous The other skeptic February 13, 2013 12:00 AM  

I liked how el Presidente told us that women have proven under fire that they are ready for combat roles.

Reminded me of of that Heroine, Jessica Lynch.

Perhaps, like Kadaffi, el Presidente should replace all his SS detail with women. I am sure Michelle would approve.

Anonymous Tad February 13, 2013 1:33 AM  

@Alexander

Not only do we have Selective Service, Tad was required to sign himself up for it. This is not his usual weaseling around definitions or historical fact or even straight up denial of reality: this was deliberate lying to deny the obvious truth.

We dont have conscription in the United Stats. It's that simple.

Anonymous Tad February 13, 2013 1:36 AM  

@11b


Tad, what about the Founders? They obviously believed in a patriarchy and their bona fides in the field of individual liberty are as good as it gets.


The founder's views on patriarchy have been thrown aside in every civilized country on earth and by every semi-learned, semi-wise person on earth.

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Blogger James Dixon February 13, 2013 6:18 AM  

> We dont have conscription in the United Stats. It's that simple.

Like I said earlier, Tad knows it could be reinstituted at any time.

> The founder's views on patriarchy have been thrown aside in every civilized country on earth and by every semi-learned, semi-wise person on earth.

Semi-learned and semi-wise? Possibly. The learned and wise are another matter.

Blogger James Dixon February 13, 2013 6:24 AM  

> I too wouldn't have it any other way.

I was going to be nice, but your further comments have convinced me you actually need the obvious comparison.

> As a circumcised male I've never missed having a foreskin,

I'm sure eunuchs feel the same way.

Anonymous Mina February 13, 2013 8:20 AM  

You can't blame him for being defensive and not wanting understand.

Blame the system that did it to him.

They conspire to injure men and deserve all of your hatred and derision.

Blogger James Dixon February 13, 2013 9:18 AM  

> You can't blame him for being defensive and not wanting understand.

I can blame him for being derisive of people who disagree with him. Thus, I'm derisive in turn.

Blogger Duke of Earl February 13, 2013 2:39 PM  

And just as soon as you can replicably prove to the non-faithful that the creator did command something, that will be relevant to the discussion.

However, unless and until you do, it isn't relevant, and you're not excused on those grounds from the same secular social contract of basic human rights that you rely upon to protect you from other people's faith-based assaults.


This is true of any moral system. There is no source of objective morality outside God, and your claims are not self evident or empirically verifiable.

circumcised men having to thrust harder and longer to achieve ejaculation

So you mean men have to take longer to orgasm? I can see why a woman would favour that.

No; again, because the male prepuce has the same basic, fundamentally intrinsic value that is assigned to all normal, healthy, functional body parts by default, its amputation is every bit as morally wrong as well.

So you say, but since I reject your assertions what you say is completely non-binding on me or mine, just as claims by Islamists would be.

See? In defense of your position you just tried to cite a couple of guys who like to hang out with pedophiles, to trade pedophile mutilation fetishist pr0n, to sexually fantasize about genitally mutilating little boys. . .

So ad hominem is all you've got? I'm beginning to see how you guys work.

Hysteria is amusing in women, in men it's disgusting.

Blogger Acksiom February 13, 2013 3:17 PM  

Hey Mina, look what I found online:

"And another part I added on, which also shows the value of a whole penis-

Start with your hand flat. Gather up all the extra skin and loosely pinch it so that you're holding it firmly but not painfully. While keeping a good hold on the skin, try to close your hand.

IT HURTS!

Now imagine an erection without adequate skin coverage. If someone says that so and so doesn't have painful erections, remember that by the time he even knows he's HAVING erections, the penis has already "allowed" for the lack of skin and given up its full potential, but that those early erections hurt. By the time he realizes it, there has already been some stretch in the skin and a good amount of erectile tissue has already been pushed inside the body, shortening the penis (a circumcised man loses an average of 1.5 inches of erection length compared to an intact man, due to the fact that there is no skin to cover the full erection. Most circumcised men pull skin from the scrotum and abdomen because they don't have any erectile skin)."

Gobsmackingly brilliant. I am having repeated V-8 moments. Now waiting to hear back about contacting her to give author credit.

Blogger black michael February 15, 2013 3:27 PM  

In other words, women should stay at home and breed up babies, and only "elite" men should go to college. You're living in the wrong century.

Anonymous mina February 16, 2013 12:10 AM  

thx Acksiom

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