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Saturday, February 09, 2013

Descent into dirty war

Karl Denninger has his usual calm and moderate take on the subject of the LA police hunt:
This is how the nation descends into a "dirty, unconventional civil war" folks.  It happens when the so-called "law enforcement" people do what a handful of NOLA cops did after Katrina, where they shot an unarmed man and then planted a gun on him.

But those cops were (eventually) brought up on charges and tried for their felonies.

There is utterly no indication that the LAPD officers involved in this will face any sanction whatsoever.

It is exactly this rabbit hole that I have repeatedly warned of -- when the so-called "law enforcers" are free to break the law without punishment, whether it be through "gun-walking", money laundering or blatantly assaulting and killing innocent people (as, you remember, occurred in Detroit) there comes a point where the people will not only refuse to assist but will turn on the government and its visible agents and edifices along with the infrastructure that it, and we all, depend.

Heads up folks -- one guy provoked this "response" among the so-called "public servants" that believe they're entitled not only to fraudulently-promised and extorted pensions but that they're also entitled to shoot citizens without consequence.

This is a loud, clear warning that exactly the nightmare scenario that I have repeatedly cautioned against and urged the people and our government to stand up and put a stop to has become uncomfortably close to realization.

If you haven't figured out that these so-called "law enforcement officers" will herd you into a gas chamber or just shoot you on the spot given this incident you're not very bright.

And if you are a law enforcement officer and you do not stand with these thugs in LA and their acts you had damned well better stand up and differentiate yourself in a loud, clear and unwavering voice, lest you get lumped in with them whether you deserve it or not.

Today, I fear not our so-called "law enforcement" agencies but rather our nation's future and the dark abyss we stand on the edge of, peering downward, without apparent recognition of exactly how close we are to an irretrievable descent into the dark.
The fact that Karl's rhetorical approach is impassioned doesn't mean he isn't correct.  The time is approaching when everyone, in and out of uniform, is going to have to take a stand.  If you're not Team Blue, are you going to give aid and comfort to the police when they are lashing out blindly at "civilians" like wounded animals?  If you are a member of Team Blue, are you going to turn a blind eye to the criminal acts of your fellow officers?

The discussion for most of us has been completely hypothetical to date.  But barring an unexpected economic recovery, the issue is likely to become less and less hypothetical as time goes on.  We in the West have been hugely fortunate to be spared, for our entire lives to date, the historical state which most of humanity has endured.  But our good fortune increasingly appears to be running out and each of us is eventually going to have to decide who we are and with whom we stand.

Labels: ,

95 Comments:

Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus February 09, 2013 10:03 AM  

Karl is ENTIRELY right.

The badge gang needs to remember that there are 150 million of us out there with guns, and local PDs can get all the surplus armoured personnel carriers they want, it won't make a difference for them in the long run.

Anonymous The other skeptic February 09, 2013 10:19 AM  

Some people thinks they know how to start a civil war

Anonymous zen0 February 09, 2013 10:21 AM  

But barring an unexpected economic recovery, the issue is likely to become less and less hypothetical as time goes on.

Speaking of which, Venezuela used a tactical nuke in the currency war yesterday and devalued 46%.

Meanwhile, the swat teams are going house to house in Big Bear to enter and search. (L.A. Times has a slide show on it with comments disabled.) Must have a blanket warrant or something, or maybe none.

Anonymous The other skeptic February 09, 2013 10:22 AM  

It is exactly this rabbit hole that I have repeatedly warned of

Score! Someone else understands the rabbit people, even if they are in uniform.

Anonymous Orville February 09, 2013 10:22 AM  

I bring this up, not because I advocate it, but because it happens throughout history. Kansas City is about 40 miles east of Lawrence, Kansas site of the infamous slaughter of Quantrill's raiders. Quantrill was a Confederate guerrilla who led a raid against the city of Lawrence killing nearly all the men and young boys and nearly burning the entire city to the ground.

When the cops go rogue against the citizens there will be people who know where their families live. Some will not hesitate to get revenge. Though I believe that a few instances of this will chill the local LEOs, which is why I think FedGov is arming DHS in such a massive way. Those DHS agents won't be as well known, and will probably have their faces masked as they do in many other countries.

Anonymous Tad February 09, 2013 10:30 AM  

@Vox Day

But our good fortune increasingly appears to be running out and each of us is eventually going to have to decide who we are and with whom we stand.

Does Carl Denninger also have such great view of everyday America as you from his home in Italy?

This kind of scare mongering you like to engage in where you predict anarchy, civil war, secession, race wars, uprisings, side-taking and more amounts to nothing more than the rhetorical fantasy of one that clearly doesn't understand the state of American society.

America isn't Mali. America isn't Greece. And Americans aren't Malians and Americans aren't Greeks.

You talk like Police are gunning down Americans in the street for no reason whatsoever on a daily basis in city after city. But of course, they are not.

The worst thing is that you denigrate and paint all police in this kind of a post when you know there is no reason for this. The nice thing is that when confronted with the person you denigrate (Lars), you have the good sense to modify your tone. That tells me something.

Here at Vox Populi you've surrounded yourself with a collection of like-minded rhetorical Yahoos like Titus, above, who are all ready to break out their survival gear, clean their big guns, take on the police, defy the government, bunker down and on and on. Yet not one of them would ever think of doing any such thing.

They have been trained here to be like you: All Talk, All Fantasy, All the time. You observe a world that simply does not exist. The question is how does such a skewed and irrational understanding of America develop?

Anonymous The other skeptic February 09, 2013 10:30 AM  

Kind and law-abiding government goons run an asset-seizure racket

Anonymous The other skeptic February 09, 2013 10:34 AM  

DHS purchases of ammo may have more to do with fraud and corruption than any planning to kill rebels

Anonymous Mr Green Man February 09, 2013 10:36 AM  

My ex-cop friend left the force for the military because of the "everyone's a criminal" and "us-vs-civilians" mentality of the police force. There's an untold story there of people who thought they were going to help their communities, discovered how ugly the Revenue and Law Enforcement Brotherhood beast was, and went onto something else more honorable.

Anonymous Rantor February 09, 2013 10:39 AM  

Tad, Americans have been gunned down in LA because they drove the same kind of truck as the bad guy... it wasn't even the right color Toyota Tundra. And yes, I would bet at least one American in the US is physically abused by a cop everyday.

CATO has a website depicting the most egregious examples with daily updates. There are 11 stories listed from 7 Feb, admittedly some concern legal action against cops for incidents that happened previously, but sometimes the civil suit is the first public indication of police abuse. For the 7th there is the case of the epileptic that was beaten because the cops thought he was on drugs. That was special.

So check out CATO and get a clue.

Anonymous The other skeptic February 09, 2013 10:40 AM  

Consumer Reports contradicts gun-grabber rhetoric


Contrary to what you might expect from all the news about gun violence, accidental deaths from guns in the home are relatively uncommon, and have actually gone down slightly in recent years, according to a new study.

Anonymous The other skeptic February 09, 2013 10:45 AM  

Miller speculated that the burning of Dorner's pickup showed potential for calculated "pre-staging" and "planning." If this is premeditated staging, he said, "It makes you wonder: What is his plan for the end game?"

They are guarding 40 people and starting to realize what it all means.

That means 400 cops tied up on guard duty plus the support resources.

Anonymous Tad February 09, 2013 10:46 AM  

@Rantor
So check out CATO and get a clue.

I don't have time for that, Rantor. I need to get ready for the coming uprising and the arrival of the DHS forces and black helicopters that we all know are on their way.

Anonymous Rantor February 09, 2013 10:50 AM  

Sorry Tad there is no army of 10,000 black helicopters. I haven't seen anything about that on CATO either. This has nothing to do with conspiracy theories and everything to do with factual reporting on cops across the US.

Anonymous Tad February 09, 2013 10:55 AM  

@Rantor

How can you take such a calm perspective when we know for a fact that "we in the West have been hugely fortunate to be spared, for our entire lives to date, the historical state which most of humanity has endured. But our good fortune increasingly appears to be running out and each of us is eventually going to have to decide who we are and with whom we stand."

Anonymous GayJewLiberalFascist February 09, 2013 10:58 AM  

Keep trying to shame us into silance, little tyrant. We know it is all you got.

PS.. If ypu already "won" why do you spend hours here yapping?

Anonymous Shutup, Tad. February 09, 2013 10:58 AM  

I don't have time for that, Rantor.

Yes, Rantor, get serious. He used it all up on writing whole paragraphs of clueless drivel.

Why, he can't even spare a second to clik on Denninger's on this page.

So much drivel, so little time.

Anonymous Zartan February 09, 2013 11:00 AM  

"Minneapolis cop told underage girls to 'deny everything'" - after he was arrested on suspicion of sexually molesting 12-14 year old girls he met on Facebook he tried to convince the girls that they should lie to investigators.

NWA was right indeed.

Oh and seriously, quit FaceBook - there is nothing redeeming or in that evil evil thing. (Begin snowflaking and Cognitive Dissonance in 3, 2, 1...)

Anonymous AlteredFate February 09, 2013 11:05 AM  

Is it just me or does it seem our resident fool (Tad) is becoming more shrill will with each post he makes. It is becoming rather obvious that he suffers from denial.

"You talk like Police are gunning down Americans in the street for no reason whatsoever on a daily basis in city after city. But of course, they are not." -resident fool

Here, fool.

http://m.youtube.com/?reload=5&rdm=mhvbxa6wq#/watch?client=mv-google&layout=mobile&utcoffset=-420&v=CDTIviQp2pM&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fm.youtube.com%2F&has_verified=1

OT,can someone tell me how to post a one word post?

Anonymous Anonymous February 09, 2013 11:05 AM  

Squealer the Pig = Tad

Anonymous AlteredFate February 09, 2013 11:07 AM  

Lol, one word link I meant to say.

I know how to make a one word post.

Anonymous Tad February 09, 2013 11:12 AM  

@Altered

Is it just me or does it seem our resident fool (Tad) is becoming more shrill will with each post he makes. It is becoming rather obvious that he suffers from denial.

Is that so? Well, please point me to the evidence of Greek and Mali-like anarchy, secession, civil war, uprisings and all that I keep seeing Vox Day predict and which his friends here take note of an nod their heads up and down.

You guys nuts!! Wishing for societal breakdown that isn't near, isn't in the future and isn't indicated by the facts. But keep on predicting it and cleaning your guns. Those HSD Agents are surely surrounding your bunker as we speak.

Anonymous CMC February 09, 2013 11:14 AM  

I was a little disappointed Denninger didn't make what to me is an obvious connection: the LA police lashing-out and over-reaction is of a piece with US foreign policy lashing-out and over-reacting, which has been going on for at least the last decade.

Anonymous Hey There February 09, 2013 11:15 AM  

Heres a video for Tad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BTdhVxva5KU

Paraphrasing TJ: "The great thing about the second amendment is it won't be needed until the come for it"

Watch that video and ask yourself Tad, Who is living in fantasy land and who is really living in reality?

Anonymous Raggededge February 09, 2013 11:17 AM  

@AlteredFate:

Here

Anonymous Raggededge February 09, 2013 11:21 AM  

@Tad: You guys nuts!!

Hey there Freud, keep your perverted thoughts to yourself.

Anonymous Hey There February 09, 2013 11:22 AM  

Cliff notes:

“governor Cuomo and Mayor Bloomberg say that assault weapons are weapons of war and don’t belong on the streets of America. If that’s true, why do the police need them? Who are the police at war with?”

Anonymous Tad February 09, 2013 11:24 AM  

@Hey There

Watch that video and ask yourself Tad, Who is living in fantasy land and who is really living in reality?

Please! A bunch of folks talking back to local officials in indication of what? Political back and forth in progress? Show me the breakdown that so many are predicting. Where was the uprising when the 94 assault weapons ban went into effect? Yeah, exactly.

There were some thoughtful folks you your little video. That's nice to witness. But don't mistake your little video for anything like a nucleus of an uprising.

Sheesh. Grasping, aren't we now?

Anonymous Shutup, Tad. February 09, 2013 11:25 AM  

Well, please point me to the evidence of Greek and Mali-like anarchy, secession, civil war, uprisings and all that I keep seeing Vox Day predict ...

Tad does not know what "predict" means. That is why he is shrieking now.

Anonymous RC February 09, 2013 11:25 AM  

The Reese's were finally granted
bail.

Their $2M+ assets were seized without trial and they were jailed without bond for 18 months. These are real people destroyed by corrupt law enforcement. What recourse do they have? Who will pay for the wrongdoing?

The jury found them not guilty on all but four offenses and even those were selling to FBI undercover when they either "knew or should have known" the guns were "going to Mexico." Of course, no guns went to Mexico.

One of the main witnesses was Detective Batts, Luna County Sheriff's dept. His testimony was used to directly impeach the Reeses and, it turns out, he's been under investigation for all manner of serious crime by the FBI for ten years.

The federal judge just granted them a new trial but, Tad, this is what we have to look forward to as things descend. Incomprehensive numbers of laws used selectively and for profit by the state with assets for defense stripped before trial. Millionaires had to depend on charity for their existence and defense. It'a a wonderful system, if you're one of the predator class.

Anonymous Full Fledged Fiasco February 09, 2013 11:26 AM  

"Today, I fear not our so-called "law enforcement" agencies but rather our nation's future and the dark abyss we stand on the edge of, peering downward, without apparent recognition of exactly how close we are to an irretrievable descent into the dark."

See this.

Anonymous zen0 February 09, 2013 11:35 AM  

Shutup, Tad said: Tad does not know what "predict" means.

I am beginning to suspect that English is not a first language for our Tad.

Anonymous George of the Hole February 09, 2013 11:35 AM  

Tad: "Here at Vox Populi you've surrounded yourself with a collection of like-minded rhetorical Yahoos like Titus, above, who are all ready to break out their survival gear, clean their big guns, take on the police, defy the government, bunker down and on and on. Yet not one of them would ever think of doing any such thing."

I don't have any "big guns", survival gear, or a bunker. I have no desire to "take on police" or "defy the government".

But I do know history. And I do know human nature. And I do know the bible. Everything I know about history, human nature, and biblical prophecy and history says that governments all eventually become exceedingly corrupt as they gather more and more centralized power and act with immoral impunity towards it's citizens.

Vox's prediction is not a "wish" or "scare mongering". It's just a prediction based upon historical precedent and clear signs of the times.

"All Talk, All Fantasy, All the time. You observe a world that simply does not exist. The question is how does such a skewed and irrational understanding of America develop?"

Lol! You just voted for a Nobel Peace Prize winning leader of the free world who decided unilaterally that he can kill American citizens. Judge, jury, executioner.

HAHAHA! Nothing to see here, folks! Move along, all you skewed and irrational fearmongering yahoos!

You are awesome, Tad. You are like a eschatological barometer. As your hubris and irrationality increase, the state of western society decreases proportionally.



Blogger Markku February 09, 2013 11:48 AM  

Don't you be dissing Tad. Every time he, civilServant and the lot open their mouths in these threads, the Ilk are provoked to link to stories about the police problem. And we have new people coming here through Alpha Game. Those guys are instrumental to their education.

Anonymous AlteredFate February 09, 2013 11:53 AM  

I have seen on many occasions people point things out to you, link videos and articles for your sole benefit, and recite well known historical examples in attempts to get you to pull your head out of the sand. All have failed. Which leads me to the conclusion that you are willfully ignorant, or a villain.

If you truly believe that Vox is a fear monger and that we are all engaged in a communal circle jerk on this site, than why is it you seem so perturbed that you cannot convince us that we have it all wrong? Why do you bother trying at all? You've said it is for your own amusement, stealing the plausible reason of our host. But it isn't plausible in your case. You are shot down, disproved, scorned, and mocked. Your invalid points make not so much as a mark, and the rose-tinted glasses you seem to see the world through aren't shared by those here.

I have a theory about you. You see, we encounter people like you everyday, in every part of our lives. You are most people. The things you say, the things you do, the beliefs you hold. But you do not encounter people like us everyday. People who are hell-bent on knowing the truth no matter where it may lead or what preconceived notions it might dash to pieces. You realize that no matter how many lies are told, no matter how much disinformation is heaped upon us, their are people who are immune to it, who can see the truth through the fog. I believe you see this, that you know this. And I think it makes you afraid. It makes you afraid either because you know what we say is true and that means that all you believe is a lie. Or, it makes you afraid because you are a villain and despite shrilly doing your utmost to convince us we are crazy, disillusion, wackos on the fringe of society we remain unsympathetic to your version of reality.

Because your version is not truth. It is a lie. I would say, "Be gone from us, liar!", but you serve a purpose. New people will come here, they will read what it is you write and they will see in it a reflection of themselves in some way. Then they will witness it torn to pieces and unmasked and seen for all the treacherous falsehoods that it is, and they will be illuminated.

So I may be wrong about you being a fool. But if not a fool, than a tool.

Anonymous AlteredFate February 09, 2013 12:00 PM  

Thank you Raggededge. Much appreciated.

Anonymous Cinco February 09, 2013 12:01 PM  

LOL Tad, someone less lazy than you who actually knows how to use the internet made a video compilation for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHeOR3-vlVU

Anonymous The other skeptic February 09, 2013 12:19 PM  

Cinco, some brave cops there. They remind me of the RedCoats in Boston.

Anonymous Thank You, Tad February 09, 2013 12:23 PM  

For your undying devotion in helping to bring illumination into the world.

Anonymous Red Comet February 09, 2013 12:25 PM  

@Tad

You talk like Police are gunning down Americans in the street for no reason whatsoever on a daily basis in city after city. But of course, they are not.

And yet when you're in a group of fellow leftoids talking about how cops target and kill minorities whenever they feel like it, I bet you have no problem nodding your head and agreeing they're all racist killers.

Anonymous Mr. Pea February 09, 2013 12:26 PM  

Speaking of hardening of the conscience and... JEWS.

A little here. A little there. Then one day, the sky is the limit.


"I don't like putting people in jail for pot... but, I DO IT ANYWAYS."

If you haven't figured out that these so-called "law enforcement officers" will herd you into a gas chamber or just shoot you on the spot given this incident you're not very bright.

It didn't happen over night. It happened over a period of conditioning.

Meh.

Blogger SgtGideonsDad February 09, 2013 12:28 PM  

"and they will be illuminated."

Worked for my little sister

Anonymous The other skeptic February 09, 2013 12:31 PM  

LAPD had no idea who they were shooting

Blogger TontoBubbaGoldstein February 09, 2013 12:34 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 February 09, 2013 12:36 PM  

Don't bother responding to Tad. He doesn't read anything you write anyway, or just reads half of it and ignores the parts that are true and contrary to his own fantasy world.

Anonymous Herman the German February 09, 2013 12:38 PM  

@ Cinco -- After watching that first portion of your link from 12:01pm today, I am a bubbling cauldron of RAGE. Thank you for bringing the truth (and that was just 42 mins of brutality from last month ALONE!). However, disgusting the truth may be, the Dread Ilk do indeed seek it out tenaciously, don't we? Poor Tad. He really does represent so many of the regular rank and file of this dumbed-down nation (if, in fact, he is not a villian). Slightly OT, but I remember my grandfather's stories of hardship both pre and post WWII in Germany (where we were both born), the food shortages, the gun confiscations...etc. Boy, I sincerely hope we pull our collective national head out of our ass before history repeats itself. I emigrated here legally 21 years ago (changed my name - kids can be cruel...lol) & will be celebrating my 14th year of citizenship this Sept. 27th. I have no desire to see this nation burn. I have no desire to "defy the goverment" and/or "bitterly cling" to anything. I adore the Bill of Rights. It is why I am here & not back across the pond. And Tad, history DOES repeat itself, Man. This isn't scare-mongering, but rather calculated predictions based on documented human history. Please, for your own sake if nothing else...WAKE UP, good Sir!

Blogger TontoBubbaGoldstein February 09, 2013 12:40 PM  

You know, if Dorner is half as smart as he thinks he is...
...and I was someone who had pissed him off (but was "not" on his " to get list"), I'd be pretty nervous.

Blogger TontoBubbaGoldstein February 09, 2013 12:45 PM  

Post post copy, paste, edit, delete original.

Sweet!!!

* Please tell me that this is a recent development and not something that has been available for many years and I just figured it out. Thanks*

Anonymous Rantor February 09, 2013 12:47 PM  

SO I was at WalMart, they had only one box of .40 today. I got it.

Anonymous The other skeptic February 09, 2013 12:49 PM  

My take on Tad is that he is a government goon who is here to ferret out the religious nutjobs who are a dire and pressing threat to freedom and diversity and homosexuals, especially homosexuals.

All the other nutjobs, like those in the DoJ, are of no consequence.

Anonymous The other skeptic February 09, 2013 12:51 PM  

SO I was at WalMart, they had only one box of .40 today. I got it.

If you have any contacts in DHS you might be able to pick up some from them, under the table, if you know what I mean.

I am also surprised that the cartels down south have not figured out that there is a profitable new market up north.

Anonymous The other skeptic February 09, 2013 12:57 PM  

Dorner responding on a CNN blog or so some think.

Anonymous Anonymous February 09, 2013 12:59 PM  

The other skeptic wrote: I am also surprised that the cartels down south have not figured out that there is a profitable new market up north.

---Hey! Good call. Well I suppose if they DO ban everything I feel that I need for the personal protection of myself & family...then they'll all brand us criminals anyway, right? At a certain irreversible point, I would of course be open to defying the law (given down from on high by tyrants) & obtaining necessary defense illegally. What other "honorable" choice would we have at that point, other than full-on revolution or something worse? Go south, young man! (Or at least to your nearest sketchy barrio.....lol).

Anonymous Godfrey February 09, 2013 1:12 PM  

No! I refuse to accept your nonsense any further! The narcissistic psychopaths that rule over us will never harm us! Instead, they will bring us an egalitarian secular scientific-based utopia!

ALL THEY NEED IS MORE POWER!

Arrogant unrestrained power is the answer to all man's problems!

Blogger foxmarks February 09, 2013 1:14 PM  

we encounter people like you everyday, in every part of our lives. You are most people. The things you say, the things you do, the beliefs you hold. But you do not encounter people like us everyday.

+1

It is also worth noting that the things most people say in public are often tempered for public approval. The regulars here may seem like they're posturing tuff guys (through the eyes of a normal). But from what I've seen, the phony tuff guys are relentlessly over-the-top. The discourse here is way too calm and rational.

Just this morning, I saw a lefty calling for a drone attack on one of my libertarian friends who dared point out that "extra-judicial killing" is tyrannical. The civil war has started and it will be fueled by rage from the left.

Anonymous Anonymous February 09, 2013 1:18 PM  

"All politics in this country are dress rehersal for a civil war". ...Billy Beck, Two-Four

Anonymous Rantor February 09, 2013 1:20 PM  

Just checked the news for an update on the women shot in their pick up.

Six cops were involved, all are on paid leave pending an investigation.

A neighbor estimates that 30 to 50 rounds were fired at a pick up that was the wrong model and color, according tot he report. THey were on a morning newspaper delivery run, you would think the cops might have noticed that they were throwing papers out the car window, if they hadn't swung into action in their Global War on Pick-Up Trucks (GWOPUT) (Houston we have an acronym)

And while the officers want to tell us how good they all are, here we have six firing on the wrong unarmed vehicle. Vulgarities inserted here.

Blogger Nate February 09, 2013 1:24 PM  

I don't give a rats ass if Karl is right or not... He's still the net's leading moronic chicken little.

Blogger Master Doh-San February 09, 2013 1:31 PM  

"Quis custodiet ipsos custodies"?

@Markku: Are you sure it's the sand Tad's got his head in? :-)

Blogger Nate February 09, 2013 1:37 PM  

By the way...

Take a good look at the discussions we've had about civil unrest breaking out in the US.

Consistently I've said the crazies will start shooting first.

Just sayin'... just sayin'...

Anonymous The other skeptic February 09, 2013 1:41 PM  

Heh, must be a good gig being a cop.

Fuck up and kill some poor innocent schmuck who is in the wrong place and the wrong time? No problem. Get paid while having a holiday until they find some way to exonerate you.

Blogger Nate February 09, 2013 1:56 PM  

At this point I'm thinking police recruiters work like this...

"Hey son... would you like to shoot someone and not go to jail?"

"fuck yeah who don't?"

Blogger foxmarks February 09, 2013 1:58 PM  

The crazies will start shooting first, unless there's a breakdown in welfare distribution. Then the poor urbanites rampage, ala Katrina.

It will be a multi-axis civil war.

Blogger Nate February 09, 2013 2:12 PM  

"The crazies will start shooting first, unless there's a breakdown in welfare distribution. Then the poor urbanites rampage, ala Katrina."

Mate.. the crazies already HAVE started shooting first.

Anonymous The other skeptic February 09, 2013 2:34 PM  

Feds create enemies all the time

Anonymous Mina February 09, 2013 2:37 PM  

Is he still here? Shut up, Tad.

Anonymous Jack Amok February 09, 2013 2:46 PM  


Take a good look at the discussions we've had about civil unrest breaking out in the US.

Consistently I've said the crazies will start shooting first.


Well, Dorner certainly fits the description. Regardless of the accuracy of his claims, he is crazy.

Now, consider how much more deadly a sane, calculating, pissed-off person could be.

Nate's right that the crazies shoot first, because they're the ones with the worst impulse control and rational calculations still say that going on a rampage is a poor choice for a sane person.

But, as Vox hints, as the economy gets worse, the calculations are going to start producing different answers. Crazy people have a hard time cooperating with one another. Sane people are better at that. When sane people start coming to the conclusion it's better to shoot than hide, things will go mammaries-to-the-sky in a hurry.

Anonymous Mina February 09, 2013 2:52 PM  

"But, as Vox hints, as the economy gets worse, the calculations are going to start producing different answers."

This is a 100%, absolute certainty.

One reason I am going tomorrow for a nice brunch, then off to practice shooting and BUY MORE GUNS!!

Blogger Markku February 09, 2013 2:56 PM  

@Markku: Are you sure it's the sand Tad's got his head in? :-)

That was someone called AlteredFate.

Blogger David of One February 09, 2013 3:15 PM  

Checkout "why the gun is civilization" by Mark Kloos written March 23rd, 2007.


why the gun is civilization


Then look at the comments ... in particular the comment by Anonymous on March 24th, 2007 @ 5:38 am.

Anonymous poses "A devils advocate" question.

Read Marko's response to Anonymous on March 24th, 2007 @ 11:59 am.

Do I think that the gun is solely the reason for a civil society? No, but it is the foundational concept of the United States as delineated by our Founding Fathers to protect future generations from tyranny.

Marko's case is made in a very clear and straight forward manner that carries over to his response the "devils advocate" question posed by Anonymous nearly 6 years ago.

Anonymous bob k. mando February 09, 2013 3:35 PM  

this thread would be the perfect place to see just how much commitment Lars has to Constitutional enforcement and his attitude towards excessive force used by police.

i wonder if he'll show up?

Anonymous DonReynolds February 09, 2013 3:45 PM  

It seems important right now to point out that this....like so many other things.....is largely a rural-urban dicotomy. In the rural areas and small towns, people do not fear and despise the police, as they seem to do in urban areas. Law enforcement in rural areas and small towns do not see themselves at war with the populace....because they are not. Volunteer or auxillary law enforcement units are still enjoy pretty brisk numbers and there is competition to join these units. Perhaps because there is no racial conflict to confuse the law enforcement relations in rural and small town areas. The citizens are largely white and the law enforcement officers represent and protect those citizens. The crime rate is also low and the number of police shootings are very low indeed.

Anonymous Anonymous February 09, 2013 3:53 PM  

"Oh and seriously, quit FaceBook - there is nothing redeeming or in that evil evil thing."

Almost. Never use it and hate it. But, I was able to sign up, like SWFA, and save $300 on a SS 1-6x scope to put on top of my SCAR 17S. Probably not what Mark Z had in mind, but when it's time to punch through w/ 7.62 ... it'll be even more satisfying that the optic was at a discount.

Anonymous DonReynolds February 09, 2013 3:55 PM  

I seem to recall that when the law enforcement lose interest in doing their job, very quickly we get what the media call the "death squads", which were very active in Central America.

These extralegal entities are largely middle class individuals frustrated with the inability or unwillingness of lawful authority to deal with the criminal element and political subversives. They may be school teachers, military officers, business owners, building trades, or government bureaucrats. They work their regular jobs by day and at night carry out "special ops" type hits on especially deserving individuals in their community, not all that different from the old Ku Klux Klan. [Recall that the Klan did not only target ethnic groups. They also visited (white) wife beaters, child molesters, pederasts, agitators, and bad citizens.]

Anonymous DonReynolds February 09, 2013 4:11 PM  

I see in some of these threads the eternal question of the early settlers and pioneers of this country, i.e.

Which is better....to seek refuge with everyone else in fortified stockades and blockhouses, waiting for the "bad guy" to go away? (Those who could not make it in time to the fort, would try to hide themselves in caves or holes in the ground until the danger passed.) This was referred to as the "trembling defense" and was primarily favored to defend the women, children, and the few elderly.

Or is it better to form fast-moving militia units of exceptionally armed men to go on the offense, chasing down the threat or attacking the enemy while still in his own villages and camps?

In the American experience, the "trembling defense" prevailed from the beginning but as time went on, the pioneers gave up on forts and barricades in favor of punitive and aggressive formations to keep the enemy far from hearth and home.

Anonymous 11B February 09, 2013 4:22 PM  

This kind of scare mongering you like to engage in where you predict anarchy, civil war, secession, race wars, uprisings, side-taking and more amounts to nothing more than the rhetorical fantasy of one that clearly doesn't understand the state of American society.

Tad, I agree that a lot of the talk is bull and it is just that, talk. But do you describe in a similar way the people at the Southern Poverty Law Center, Anti Defamation League, NAACP, La Raza, and others who continually tell us about the vast number of racists wreaking havoc or planning the elimination of Jews, blacks and Hispanics? Do you consider them to be scare mongering too?

Anonymous Idle Spectator February 09, 2013 4:26 PM  

My ex-cop friend left the force for the military because of the "everyone's a criminal" and "us-vs-civilians" mentality of the police force. There's an untold story there of people who thought they were going to help their communities, discovered how ugly the Revenue and Law Enforcement Brotherhood beast was, and went onto something else more honorable.

You know that attitude is actually correct.

There are so many laws on the books now, everyone literally is a criminal now. Whether it's a parking ticket, sharing a few perscription pills, an equipment violation on your car, speeding, downloading music, or violating some ordinance or zoning law you have no idea about. They can always find something now.

Keep in mind Bane was also a cop for a time. That should scare you.

Bane the Cop

I don't know what is the worst anecdote about this story; that (a) Bane was actually a cop (b) He was considered one of the "good cops" or (c) The corruption spread so far it involved the prosecutor and mafia as well.

Food for thought.

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 4:31 PM  

@ bob k. mondo:

"this thread would be the perfect place to see just how much commitment Lars has to Constitutional enforcement and his attitude towards excessive force used by police.

i wonder if he'll show up?"

i am not sure how i am supposed to demonstrate my commitment to constitutional enforcement on my day off, when i am hoping to do absolutely no enforcement of any kind today. seriously, i am not sure how i can show such a commitment right now other than agreeing that abuses, particular and general, should not be tolerated.

probably i will not spend as much time on this thread, as much as i enjoyed the conversation in the last one.

Anonymous Mina February 09, 2013 4:33 PM  

"There are so many laws on the books now, everyone literally is a criminal now."

Ayn Rand

"There's no way to rule innocent men.
The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals.
Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them.
One declares so many things to be a crime
that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 4:34 PM  

@ Mr Pea.:

"I don't like putting people in jail for pot... but, I DO IT ANYWAYS."

just wanted to point out that you are quoting yourself here, not me.

Blogger James Dixon February 09, 2013 4:59 PM  

> America isn't Mali. America isn't Greece. And Americans aren't Malians and Americans aren't Greeks.

No. We're not. We're much more vicious, as a simple perusal of the death tolls in the Civil War will show.

Blogger foxmarks February 09, 2013 4:59 PM  

Loughner and Dorner and Stack are crazies who have started shooting (or crashing) against the power structure. I don't think Lanza or Holmes are in the same class. Holmes wasn't raging against the machine, he was raging against the world.

If Dorner does a decent job, he can change the game and inspire enough anti-state crazies to make being an LEO as high-risk as they like to believe they are. They have all the paramilitary gear, and they'll need it. But even civilian police on routine patrol wearing all that gear and carrying long guns will not sit well with the public.

The lefties in my neighborhood like to imagine the cops have soldier gear to use against the people on the other side of tracks. When it becomes plain that cops see everyone as a threat, support falls and tension escalates. An "ordinary" use of force inspires outrage and protest, which is met with more force, ala OWS.

KD may be a chicken little, but I saw the same potential scenario before I started reading his version of it. I have been amazed since 9/11 that none of the foreign terrorists have seized on the opportunity to seed chaos by doing exactly what the crazies of both Dorner and Holmes classes have done.

Anonymous Idle Spectator February 09, 2013 5:01 PM  

Oh oh oh, some more good cop corruption stories.

Example 2: Miami-Dade County in Florida during the Cocaine Wars from about 1975 to 1985.

Miami-Dade County

This is the Scarface era as cocaine descended like gang shouts of White Powder! on Florida, along with the Mariel Boatlift in 1980 from Cuba, where Fidel Castro flushed the toilet on the United States. Thanks for being completely sackless, Jimmeh Card-tah!

The exact details of the cop corruption start at 3:00.
"Finally it got to a point if you weren't under the influence of drugs at the moment, you're hired."
"And the entire academy class from that year, later on went to jail or died."

America's finest. Makes one proud to be Uh-merricun.

Anonymous Idle Spectator February 09, 2013 5:06 PM  

OH FUCK! There's a clip of Janet Reno when she was young at 4:28. I completely forgot she was State Attorney down there at that time. Maybe I shouldn't have posted that clip.



My enormous penis just died a little inside...

Blogger papabear February 09, 2013 5:26 PM  

"Six cops were involved, all are on paid leave pending an investigation."

Wonder how many were women.

Anonymous bob k. mando February 09, 2013 6:00 PM  

lars February 09, 2013 4:31 PM
i am not sure how i am supposed to demonstrate my commitment to constitutional enforcement on my day off,




do you have any PROFESSIONAL OPINION on the specifics of any of the abuses being detailed in this thread?

specifically, i take it that you agree that all of the officers involved in shooting up the newspaper delivery truck should be fired and up on criminal charges?

do you have any comments or critiques on the compilation posted by Cinco?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHeOR3-vlVU

especially that first incident?




what of the DA who is attempting to seize a building valued @ $1.5 million dollars because some anonymous person on facebook posted that they had made a $37 pot purchase from a tenant? at the same time that the city convention center is holding a pot themed expo?

what is the procedure for police response to a .gov official who is clearly breaking the law? is it not arrest?

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 6:19 PM  

bob k. mondo:

it appears to me that the officers in the shooting engaged in gross negligence. it is possible that criminal charges are appropriate. there should certainly be no reward for such behavior.

i need to caution you, that i cannot make a full judgement on a case that i know little about.

you asking me to give such an opinion without all the facts is inconsisten. what i mean is this: you would object to me arresting an ordinary citizen without a thorough investigation. the police involved in this shooting deserve the same as you or anyone else: a thorough and fair investigation.

that being said, on the face of it, it does not look good for them.

keep in mind that the u.s. supreme court has established that you cannot judge police with 20/20 hindsight. i would refer you to graham vs connor. the standard for police force must be how reasonable the threat and their response seemed to them at the time, and if that is reasonable in an objective way.

i am NOT trying to stick up for these cops. lord help me, if i ever was active in an incident such as that i would turn my badge in, weather or not i was prosecuted and terminated.

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 6:25 PM  

to paint more detail and colour..... we do not know exactly what dispatch those particular officers were given, or what misinformation was passed on to them from their superiors. those details are important. also, exactly what action did the occupants of the car take? if the officers attempted a traffic stop with bad information, and then the occupants of the vehicle began to behace erratically, and then pointed rolled up newspapers out the windows as "proof" that they had no weapons....... then i can see how an officer could rush to judgement and percieve a threat and a weapon.

again, i will beat this horse till it is dead, and even undead.... i am not sticking up for these officers or their behavior.....

BUT!!!! you would not want someone judging you without all the facts, and i suggest we be as fair to these officers, at least in the short term.

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 7:06 PM  

a person who rushes to judge a few people without knowing the facts is no better than a rabble-rousing al sharpton.

and that is what EVERYONE wants police to do, it often seems.... to act prematurely whenever it suits there whim, and to take no action when it suits their other whim.

Anonymous farmer Tom February 09, 2013 7:25 PM  

lars,

Are you a member of oath keepers?

quote,"Section 8.05. Our Mission. Oath Keepers is a non-partisan association of currently serving military, reserves, National Guard, veterans, Peace Officers, and Fire Fighters who will fulfill the Oath we swore, with the support of like minded citizens who take an Oath to stand with us, to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, so help us God. Our Oath is to the Constitution.">end quote

Oath Keepers

Oath Keepers Wikipedia

Anonymous Conservative Language Institute of America February 09, 2013 8:22 PM  

Multiculturalism: Society ultimately degenerates into a war of all against all.

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 9:33 PM  

Farmer Tom,

thanks for the qestion. i am not a member of oath keepers. it sounds like they have some good ideas, on the face of it. i think i read a thread here a week or two ago wherein some people argued over its merits. i like the idea of law enforcement and governments, from the local to the national level being reminded by officers that there they are accountable to a higher authority.

Anonymous bob k. mando February 09, 2013 11:05 PM  

lars February 09, 2013 6:19 PM
i need to caution you, that i cannot make a full judgement on a case that i know little about.



we are all aware that we are operating in a 'limited knowledge' environment.

however, this was true EVEN FOR THOSE OFFICERS. and they don't seem to have exercised much restraint ....



lars February 09, 2013 6:19 PM
it appears to me that the officers in the shooting engaged in gross negligence. it is possible that criminal charges are appropriate. there should certainly be no reward for such behavior.


well and good.

the problem for me is that the vid starts from the cop car at a full stop, parked along a residential street. earliest time stamp is 42:31 and they seem to cycle ever 4 secs. the shadow of the second patrol car is visible by time stamp 43:20. that's 49 seconds from leaving cover to the whole incident being well past anything that was retrievable. by 43:54, there are a minimum of 4 officers visible.

in addition, he gives an order to 'drop the knife' but grants Ernesto no time in which to comply with his order. then he shoots Ernesto in the back. and then empties his gun into Ernesto.

and what the hell is it with cops issuing orders to people who are severely injured?

sigh.

i know that Ernesto is functionally <2 sec from putting a knife into Moody throughout this confrontation but that is entirely because of the way Moody has constructed the situation.

this is the primary reason why i don't watch cop / cop chase shows. i CONSTANTLY observe basic procedural errors like this. and on the boob tube the announcer always characterizes the police action as 'good' or 'correct' or 'unavoidable'. really quite annoying.


to me, this was CLEARLY a stalking / trap manuever that was sprung too quickly by Moody. he *should* have had a taser out, not his pistol. but because he was alone ( because the boy jumped out too fast < black humor ), he put himself into a box where he 'needed' to be able to lethally defend himself because he had no backup and he had multiple possible hostiles in the environment.

had he simply pulled out at a more leisurely pace *and coordinated his approach* with the other patrol cars this need not have happened. also, it's inexcusable that the first patrol car on the scene didn't have two officers in it.


otoh, given the propensity of women to call in cops in order to intimidate the men in their lives ( see: Scott Weiland and Jim Brown ) it's possible there's some true macabre humor in Whitney getting her husband gunned down right in front of her. depends on whether or not she really was getting her ass beat.

Blogger Galt-in-Da-Box February 09, 2013 11:12 PM  

TadFebruary 09, 2013 10:30 AM
@Vox Day

But our good fortune increasingly appears to be running out and each of us is eventually going to have to decide who we are and with whom we stand.

Does Carl Denninger also have such great view of everyday America as you from his home in Italy?

This kind of scare mongering you like to engage in where you predict anarchy, civil war, secession, race wars, uprisings, side-taking and more amounts to nothing more than the rhetorical fantasy of one that clearly doesn't understand the state of American society.

America isn't Mali. America isn't Greece. And Americans aren't Malians and Americans aren't Greeks.

You talk like Police are gunning down Americans in the street for no reason whatsoever on a daily basis in city after city. But of course, they are not.

The worst thing is that you denigrate and paint all police in this kind of a post when you know there is no reason for this. The nice thing is that when confronted with the person you denigrate (Lars), you have the good sense to modify your tone. That tells me something.

Here at Vox Populi you've surrounded yourself with a collection of like-minded rhetorical Yahoos like Titus, above, who are all ready to break out their survival gear, clean their big guns, take on the police, defy the government, bunker down and on and on. Yet not one of them would ever think of doing any such thing.

They have been trained here to be like you: All Talk, All Fantasy, All the time. You observe a world that simply does not exist. The question is how does such a skewed and irrational understanding of America develop?"

Tad, do you EVER pull Burn-bank-e's shlong out of your piehole & stop fellating the Establishment, or are you permanently entrenched in "Stupid Troll" mode!?
Californication/Mexifornia is ALL ABOUT cop-on-plebe violence, and if the damn dirty apes in blue don't get their stinking paws off before they are outnumbered by those "undocumented workers" your kind love so much, that Christ-forsaking shithole won't have to wait for an earthquake to go down the tubes for good:
Recently, during one of those "gun buy back" deals Feinkike & the rest of the FeminStaazi are so in love with, a couple of rocket-launchers were turned in. Since that's not the kind of shit you can buy @ Dick's or Gander Mountain, you can bet your lavender ass there are a lot more of them floating around...Authoritarian elitists like your hero Dumbo better learn their place, or they're likely to get put in it!

Anonymous Roundtine February 10, 2013 6:58 AM  

great question 11B. Vox is, at worst, the rightwing version of msm news sources. if vox created a fake institute and put out official sounding press releases, it would be the literal equivalent. albeit vox would have history and human nature on his side.

vox is right that people are so far removed from this stuff,they cannot imagine it. i bet most commenters also will see no violence except on their tv . now,if you are a Korean shop owner in la, or a jewish one in NY, you have seen it in your lifetime.

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