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Saturday, February 09, 2013

Knock 'em dead

Keoni Galt notes how Scorpion has summarized his own feelings concerning the ultimate hunt being played out in LA:
I don't think many people are actually condoning the fact that this guy killed innocent people.

They're just glad that somebody is taking a violent stand against the police/government and are living vicariously through him.

Our government is so fucked up and out of control, and everyone knows it, that something like this has a bit of a Robin Hood element to it. People generally feel powerless to do anything about government overreach, so when a guy like this stands up and says, "Enough! Fuck you. I'm not taking anymore!" that resonates with the frustrations of a lot of people.

That people are willing to overlook the fact that this guy has killed innocent people is a stinging indictment of how low the police and the government stand in the eyes of citizens. A large percentage of public opinion is sympathetic to a (seemingly) crazed murderer over the government. That's pretty goddamned pathetic and makes our government and the LAPD look like shit, but deservedly so, because they've earned that contempt through years of corruption, abuse of power and trampling on the rights of citizens. 
This is true.  I noticed how much things had changed when I started hearing conservative white business executives in their sixties talking about the police in a manner all but indistinguishable from NWA.  Something is wrong, something is deeply and structurally wrong, when the mere fact of being involved in the law enforcement system at any level is enough to engender contempt in the eyes of those who are upstanding, law-abiding citizens.

Forget the cops for the moment.  When you think of a judge or a district attorney, what is your first thought?  Pillar of the community or corrupt tool of an evil and unjust system? 

Another thing that strikes me.  It seems as if every drama on television about either doctors or police.  I wonder if the constant repetition of the heroic portrayal of the police saving the day and blowing away the perp, who is usually a white men, has not only programmed the target audiences to believe that white men are evil, but has also helped convince older white men to see police as the enemy. 

Labels: ,

184 Comments:

Blogger Bob February 09, 2013 4:25 PM  

That's easy:

Corrupt tool of an evil and unjust system.

No contest.

Blogger Bob February 09, 2013 4:26 PM  

Hmmm...

I was first!

Blogger Markku February 09, 2013 4:27 PM  

I don't know, it seemed as if Captain Obvious beat you to it.

Blogger Tom February 09, 2013 4:30 PM  

Hey Markku, whatever happened with the big predestination throw down that was happening awhile back on here? Did questions get set and answers posted?

Blogger Markku February 09, 2013 4:34 PM  

It happened precisely when CoComment got nuked. Many of our questions were designed to pin Vox down to a position and then fight it out in the comments. And now the comments are gone.

Blogger Blackburn February 09, 2013 4:36 PM  

Vox, shouldn't that be Motley Crue not Scorpion? unless I am missing something.

Blogger Amy February 09, 2013 4:44 PM  

Blackburn, KG posted lyrics to a Crue song, but Scorpion is the handle of the RooshV commenter whom KG and Vox are quoting.

Anonymous DaveD February 09, 2013 4:45 PM  

I remember growing up with lots of shows like Rockford Files, Remington Steele, the Equalizer, etc. Shows portraying PI's, and vigilante's as good guys and the cops as incompetent or crooked. Where are those shows now? The 2 of the only ones I can think of are on cable. Now, most of the shows depict the cops as selfless heroes sacrificing themselves, their families etc to protect us from the Bad Guys and the private citizens like PI's, etc are all corrupt, religious nuts etc.

Its almost like they're trying to get people to think a certain way about cops....

DD

Blogger Shimshon February 09, 2013 4:46 PM  

When you think of a judge or a district attorney, what is your first thought? Pillar of the community or corrupt tool of an evil and unjust system?

Is this a trick question or what?

Anonymous dh February 09, 2013 5:00 PM  

when I started hearing conservative white business executives in their sixties talking about the police in a manner all but indistinguishable from NWA

Stop.

You are assuming that these people are upstanding citizens. Why should we believe that?

They are very likely as corrupt as the cops.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 09, 2013 5:02 PM  

Priming! Malcolm Gladwell wrote a book! I can typing!

Blogger Blackburn February 09, 2013 5:03 PM  

@Amy

Poor reading comprehension on my part. Thnx

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 09, 2013 5:04 PM  

You are assuming that these people are upstanding citizens. Why should we believe that?

They are very likely as corrupt as the cops.


More likely, to be precise.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 09, 2013 5:08 PM  

I seem to have missed the "conservative" modifier. That ratchets the probability down a bit. But are we talking Bill Kristol conservative or John Derbyshire conservative?

Anonymous Idle Spectator February 09, 2013 5:14 PM  

Priming! Malcolm Gladwell wrote a book! I can typing!

How is your Igon Value? Mine I can be Octgon Value.

That is eight whole gons.

Blogger Blackburn February 09, 2013 5:17 PM  

@AP,

Vox does things like game and mouse development. In that arena he likely meets with actual entrepreneurs who create wealth by making stuff or investing in people who make stuff. It is people like that who are sick of all the abuse of power by the US government that are secretly cheering for Dorner. You won't find any Banksters re-tweeting #godornergo.

Anonymous Noah B. February 09, 2013 5:18 PM  

"You are assuming that these people are upstanding citizens. Why should we believe that?"

This is actually a fair point. There are so many ridiculous laws on the books now that the vast majority of these conservative business owners probably have committed innumerable felonies or, even if they aren't aware of it. And as prosecutors frequently brag, they can indict a ham sandwich, and most of the time, compel a defendant facing lengthy prison sentences to admit guilt, as virtually no one has the resources to win a lengthy fight against the state in the court system it controls. Most of these laws I'm talking about have nothing whatsoever to do with being a good person or living life according to the Bible.

In the eye of the State, we're all criminals now. Naturally we don't hold the people who want to destroy us in very high regard.

Blogger David Webb February 09, 2013 5:19 PM  

"You are assuming that these people are upstanding citizens. Why should we believe that?"

Because old, white men in their sixties generally are decent citizens. Seriously, get outta the house some more, you might learn somethin.

Blogger tz February 09, 2013 5:25 PM  

In the age of YouTube and cell phone cameras that can record video, it is much easier to show the decline. Copblock.org and policemisconduct.net has daily incidents.

As I've posted before, we used to have neighborhood "Constables" who would avoid force or violence as much as possible, and help people. Kept the peace, so were called peace officers. Their goal was to de-escalate. Ignore laws unless someone refused to stop being obnoxious or a nuisance.

I don't know quite where or when, but the police became militarized - in spirit before the DHS federalization. It may go back to the cities, but they are ranked like the military (the fire department has rank but not quite to the extent - they are more titles). And they lost any care or responsibility to the citizens. They don't keep the peace, citizens are the enemy. They are "blue-coats", just as King George III's Redcoats were. Just as much enemies. Just as much foreign. Just as much hating of the fundamental human rights - common law and the Magna Charta back then, the constitution now.

Blue-Coats and Constables cannot coexist. Constables will resent and expose the dishonor of a bluecoat. Bluecoats stay inside the "thin blue line".

As far as "killing innocent people", maybe someone should keep score, him v.s. the LAPD and see who ever pays a penalty for killing innocents. Even in this incident there are those two delivery women, and someone else who just happened to have a similar truck.

He was one of them.
He is no different than them.
Except he might be killed or otherwise punished.

I'm not so sure they are actually sympathetic to the killer as much as so contemptuous of the LAPD they aren't sure which is the lesser evil.

Anonymous PA February 09, 2013 5:34 PM  

No love for Tim McVeigh?

Blogger Some dude February 09, 2013 5:36 PM  

We're missing the point. Chris Dorner is an evil bastard who was too sick for the LAPD. He never should have gotten in there in the first place.

He isn't a public hero. If anything, he's exactly the sort of thuggish fascist that would happily be smashing down the doors of innocent people while wearing jackboots and a black uniform.

http://frontpagemag.com/2013/dgreenfield/copkiller-leaves-manifesto-praising-obama-and-calling-for-gun-control/




Anonymous DrW February 09, 2013 5:44 PM  

I'm a 60-ish white guy and one of those evil veterans the DHS warns you about. And I'm pretty pissed about that.

I think I'd get fairer treatment from the Hells Angels than any prosecutor or government bureaucrat.

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 5:55 PM  

@ tz:

i like your concept of citizen-constables. i think it is a concept that could work. could. in the right circumstances. however, where i live and work, constables are poorly trained and often show poor judgement. they work piecemeal for judges serving papers and arrest warrants. they have no police power of independant arrest. and often we police arrest them because they overstep their bounds and attempt arrests or illegimate traffic stops, which they know they are forbidden to do. often constables are police wanna bes who for various reasons could not find employement in a police force. this is not to say that there are not good constables out there.... but as a group, they are pretty dodgy in my experience.

as far as how "military" police are.... we don't have so many ranks where i work. an officer is an officer. supervisor's (sergeants and corporals) don't really make more money than officers. administrators (lieutenants) make less than we make. the "cheif" does not even have arrest powers of his own. i realize things vary quite a bit from place to place, from department to department.

Anonymous obama voter February 09, 2013 5:57 PM  

Well, as long as he is shooting white people and praising Obama and gun control... he's a hero.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 09, 2013 5:58 PM  

Some dude,

You clearly haven't noticed that the LAPD is matching him body-for-body in innocent victims of this little shindig.

Anonymous Jack Amok February 09, 2013 6:00 PM  

Something is wrong, something is deeply and structurally wrong, when the mere fact of being involved in the law enforcement system at any level is enough to engender contempt in the eyes of those who are upstanding, law-abiding citizens.

I'm a First Aid instructor with a group that puts on several classes a year. We get quite a few Fire Fighters as students (not sure, I think the cert helps them get promotions and what not). A large percentage of them are ex-LEOs, and they tend to say (unprompted) things like "I went into police work to help people, but I feel like him helping more as a fire fighter."

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 6:00 PM  

sir robert peel's fundamental idea is this: "the citizens are the police, and the police are the citizens.". the whole idea, as i said before was to put an end to citizens being at the mercy of soldiers or the brittish crown, or a knight's men-at-arms. it was a revolutionary idea that gave an unprecedented degree of liberty and security to british and american citizens. this is not to say that the concept should not continue to evolve.

but think about this.... on this blog, there have been many threads and much discussion about the rapidly changing culture and demographic of america, and of the west. we may be reaching a point where we no longer want peels formula to be put into place. i mean: the changing culture might not allow for such a citizen police force.... if the culture itself cannot be trusted. i hope that this is not the case, and i will keep working to try to prevent this from becoming reality.

Blogger The Great and Powerful Oz February 09, 2013 6:02 PM  

There is a school of thought that says: If you fuck with me I will kill you, your family and your dog. Slowly and painfully.

There are Biblical precedents. Plus it increases the attack surface so much that a single person can't hope to defend everyone all the time.

I don't condone it, but from a strategic point of view I can see the usefulness.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 09, 2013 6:07 PM  

How is your Igon Value? Mine I can be Octgon Value.

That is eight whole gons.


Homey my Igons is all complex an shit.

But seriously I'm not getting whatever analogy you're making here.

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 6:09 PM  

what i appreciated about tz's "constable" thought is that i don't see many people offer alternatives on how to arrange peace and law and order. the danger of a constable idea is that it could degenerate into mob justice and lynchings.

sure, there is some health to pointing out evil, but at some point if you tear something down, you will have to replace it with something.

Anonymous Supernaut February 09, 2013 6:12 PM  

We're missing the point. Chris Dorner is an evil bastard who was too sick for the LAPD. He never should have gotten in there in the first place.

Meh. This is precisely what the National Mass Media narrative is. Based on that, we now KNOW that Dorner WAS a guy who tried to do the right thing and got screwed over by an evil system.

That doesn't condone or justify his evil response (thou shalt not kill), but to say that he was a bad seed before even joining is just wrong. Read the manifesto yourself. He plainly describes his horror at the attitude and way the LAPD operates and treats the citizenry.

Dorner joined the LAPD with a sense of justice and morality and quickly found out those are the antithesis of the LAPD's culture. So he snapped.

Knock 'em Dead, Kid!

Anonymous Noah B. February 09, 2013 6:12 PM  

We're missing the point. Chris Dorner is an evil bastard who was too sick for the LAPD. He never should have gotten in there in the first place.

He isn't a public hero. If anything, he's exactly the sort of thuggish fascist that would happily be smashing down the doors of innocent people while wearing jackboots and a black uniform.


Who said he was a public hero? Who defended him or said he wasn't an evil bastard?

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 09, 2013 6:13 PM  

Blackburn,

You're probably correct within that sample space, but entrepreneurship in general requires an uncanny ability to jump through hoops. That's more important than having a product, good credit, high energy, intelligence, or any of the other factors that predict success.

I'm actually having trouble understanding why the femtards aren't doing a media blitz to get more girls to start businesses. Probably lack of imagination.

Blogger Markku February 09, 2013 6:15 PM  

I think the time for alternatives is over. Collapse and mayhem is just going to happen no matter what, and at some point you should just step out of the way, so that the good guys don't have to consider the small chance that there is one of them on the other side while they're defending themselves. It may make them pause for a split second too long.

Then maybe at some point the populace will again remember why freedoms were important, and the human material that the society consists of becomes good enough again to support a good police force.

Anonymous Jack Amok February 09, 2013 6:26 PM  

but think about this.... on this blog, there have been many threads and much discussion about the rapidly changing culture and demographic of america, and of the west. we may be reaching a point where we no longer want peels formula to be put into place. i mean: the changing culture might not allow for such a citizen police force.... if the culture itself cannot be trusted. i hope that this is not the case, and i will keep working to try to prevent this from becoming reality.

I think you're right about this Lars. The whole idea of a police force is to protect a vast majority of law-abiding citizens from a small percentage of predatory criminals. It doesn't work if a significant majority of the population are criminals.

Well, we've got two things working against that (and two reactions making the problem worse). First, between failing to integrate huge numbers of immigrants into our society and abandoning the work of civilizing our own more crime-prone groups, we've dramatically increased the number of people lacking either the self control or investment in society (or both) to avoid predatory behavior. Second, by exploding the number of laws, we've made criminals out of huge numbers of stable, rational, community-minded individuals who are finding it harder and harder to prosper within the system.

The two poor reactions are first, militarizing (or better yet, de-constabularizing) the police, instituting training that stresses control, projection of authority, and professionalism that separates the officer from the citizen. It may seem odd to argue professionalism is a bad idea, but to the extent it fosters an us-against-them mindset, it's counter-productive - there will never be enough of you to deal with an uncooperative "us." The changes in police training and attitude over the last 30 years have led to a less cooperative "us."

That reaction can be blamed on the police profession. The second is more the fault of politicians, but much LEO leadership has signed onto it and increasingly bears responsibility too. And that is the conversion of police from LEOs to REOs - Revenue Enhancement Officers. Every "Click-it-or-ticket" citation a cop writes turns one more person against the Boys in Blue. Every department that has a ticket quota does the same thing (your dept might not, but some, many, do. I sat on a jury and got to listen to a WA State Patrol Trooper answer the question "Do you have a monthly quota?" under oath. He didn't want to say yes, but the lawyer did a full-on Perry Mason and said "I'll remind you, you're under oath.").

My old haunt San Diego just got rid of their red light cameras because, as the Mayor said, they weren't improving safety and were causing widespread disrespect for the authorities. Smart guy - too bad we don't elect more like him.

Anonymous Idle Spectator February 09, 2013 6:27 PM  

How is your Igon Value? Mine I can be Octgon Value.

That is eight whole gons.

Homey my Igons is all complex an shit.

But seriously I'm not getting whatever analogy you're making here.


Oh you don't remember Malcock Touchwell being a fucktard at math?

Idle Claus is here for you: http://voxday.blogspot.com/search?q=igon

Anonymous RC February 09, 2013 6:34 PM  

"It happened precisely when CoComment got nuked. Many of our questions were designed to pin Vox down to a position and then fight it out in the comments. And now the comments are gone." - Markku

I actually took those posts and comments off-line for later analysis right before coco died. If you'd like a copy, I'd be happy to send them along.

Blogger Markku February 09, 2013 6:36 PM  

I pretty much remember it. I'd prefer if they could be linked with Team Calvin: Five Questions in the sidebar.

Anonymous RC February 09, 2013 6:39 PM  

I'll let you work that out with the host.

I do have an old gmail address for you from when you sent me a copy of ROE. Let me know if you ever want access.

Blogger Markku February 09, 2013 6:43 PM  

I take it those are your real initials? If yes, then I have your address.

Blogger Markku February 09, 2013 6:45 PM  

But note, everyone who still has it, I don't regularly look at that gmail address. If you send something to it and don't mention it here, it'll probably take several months for me to notice it.

Anonymous Brian February 09, 2013 6:50 PM  

The number of cop shows is disturbing, but also notice how many soldiers show up in those shows for no reason at all. My GF watches SVU (the only mainstream junk she watches), and she noticed there's been a soldier in just about every episode this season.

Anonymous Godfrey February 09, 2013 7:01 PM  

When you hear veterans in their 80's ridiculing the government, you know the end is near. Besides a few one-dimensional sodomites and a handful of naïve low-IQ liberals, most people consider the government corrupt, oppressive and illegitimate.

Anonymous Noah B. February 09, 2013 7:06 PM  

I've often thought that there should be more TV dramas about engineers. Each episdoe could address real world problems that engineers deal with every day, like trying unsuccessfully to explain something somewhat technical to a manager or client, working with a poorly documented API, or persuade zoning officials to allow a variance opposed by someone on a city council. Just imagine the season finale cliffhangers they could have: "If we don't improve productivity right now, the new version of our accounting suite is going to be $100,000 over budget and three weeks behind schedule!" Fade to black.

Hollywood just doesn't have the stomach for something so gripping. But imagine the ratings if they did.

Anonymous GreyS February 09, 2013 7:06 PM  

" [...]but has also helped convince older white men to see police as the enemy."

Interesting. Haven't thought of that. But I'm certain that the constant Super Hero Cop stuff has tweaked the minds of hundreds of thousands of LEO's.

I wonder how many people have been killed because of the movie/tv car chase influence on LE actions. Anyone who's seen those knows what's in chasers' heads. They've been trained to react as if a pack of dogs chasing a tennis ball.

Anonymous Johnny-Come-Lately February 09, 2013 7:24 PM  

I havent had a chance to read many of the huge amount of comments pertaining to this ex-cop/killer. Having said that, has any one noted the striking similarity between said murder suspect and a certain movie character played by Silvester Stallone in the early 80's?

Anonymous allyn71 February 09, 2013 7:31 PM  

Johnny, this one?

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/6783/proxystorifycom.jpg

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 09, 2013 7:32 PM  

Idle Claus,

I'm only maybe two years old around here. Thanks for the present. My brother says you're not real but I always knew.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 09, 2013 7:38 PM  

Besides a few one-dimensional sodomites and a handful of naïve low-IQ liberals, most people consider the government corrupt, oppressive and illegitimate.

Speaking of whom...where's our fine example of both types? Must be in his cage at the moment.

Tad, if you can hear this say "mmph".

Blogger James Dixon February 09, 2013 7:38 PM  

> Pillar of the community or corrupt tool of an evil and unjust system?

In most cases, incompetent corrupt tool of an evil and unjust system.

> I don't see many people offer alternatives on how to arrange peace and law and order.

Lars, I live in a county, not a city or town. The only law enforcement is a single county sherrff's deputy for our area of the county and the sheriff himself. I have never met either man. With any luck, I never will meet them or have any need to do so. The is no necessary relationship between peace, law and order, and law enforcement officials.

Anonymous Johnny-Come-Lately February 09, 2013 7:43 PM  

@ allyn71
Is Brian Dennehy involved in this current manhunt by any chance?

Anonymous Sheldon, Leonard, and Raj February 09, 2013 7:44 PM  

Noah B. said:
I've often thought that there should be more TV dramas about engineers....Hollywood just doesn't have the stomach for something so gripping. But imagine the ratings if they did.

Brilliant Mr. Wolowitz! We will get a team of PHD's on it right away!

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 09, 2013 7:56 PM  

I've seen the Big Bang Theory and it has nothing to do with engineering. If it did, I might watch it again.

What I did see was a bunch of people laughing at "engineers".

Anonymous The other skeptic February 09, 2013 8:00 PM  

I've seen the Big Bang Theory and it has nothing to do with engineering.

Indeed. Very few shows on TV have anything to do with reality.

Black technology geniuses? Nope. Women super engineers? Nope. Female super lawyers? Nope. Midgets in charge of important defense organizations? Maybe, because you never can tell how stupid managers in the government are.

Anonymous zen0 February 09, 2013 8:01 PM  

I havent had a chance to read many of the huge amount of comments pertaining to this ex-cop/killer. Having said that, has any one noted the striking similarity between said murder suspect and a certain movie character played by Silvester Stallone in the early 80's?

Cobra 1986

Anonymous TheExpat February 09, 2013 8:07 PM  

When you think of a judge or a district attorney, what is your first thought?

Political animal. Worse, in case of DA, ambitious political animal who can and will nail anyone to a cross to further said political ambitions.

Anonymous zen0 February 09, 2013 8:11 PM  

Engineers seem to have a humor deficit.

Anonymous Pope Cleophus I February 09, 2013 8:37 PM  

Three Felonies A Day

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 09, 2013 8:41 PM  

lars,

You seem pretty caught up on the question of viable alternatives to the current police force. I think your concern should be what you will do if someone answers that question indisputably.

Anonymous Johnny-Come-Lately February 09, 2013 8:43 PM  

We all love the cinematic idea of the righteous rogue waging war on a corrupt establishment!
Get this guy a hemi Road Runner and a continuous twitter feed and his status as folk hero will be cemented.

Anonymous Supernaut February 09, 2013 8:50 PM  

Thanks for the link, it was very instructive.

http://frontpagemag.com/2013/dgreenfield/copkiller-leaves-manifesto-praising-obama-and-calling-for-gun-control/

This link to FP was the red kool aid version of the bi-factional ruling party's political theater. It's just another boring, predictable round of pin the tail on the Democrat donkey.

It also seeks to reinforce the right wing's mindless support of Law Enforcement and it's recent militarization.

WE MUST SUPPORT THE MEN IN BLUE. THEY ARE THE ONLY THING STANDING BETWEEN US AND COMPLETE ANARCHY!

Meh. That mindless genuflecting and pedestalizing of the State's stormtroopers is just as bad as any idiotic liberal gun control pablum.

This is thing with Manifestos. They're long. They ramble. They cover all sorts of topics.

Anyone can pick and choose particular passages to pronounce judgement on the situation and the man behind the words.

Hell, that's what I did with the post linked in the OP. (Thanks for the linkage again, VD).

I ignored the Obama and Hillary praising, the shout out to celebrity's, his support for gun control and most certainly ignored all of the stuff he wrote regarding racism.

What I was trying to do, and now see I should have made more clear on that post, was show what I think happened here: Dorner was a true-blue blue pill taker who believed wholeheartedly in Truth, Justice and teh 'murican way. He was a military member who had pretty high level security clearance. In short, it's clearly evident he considers himself a true American patriot.

Yeah, he was almost 100% certainly a democrat voting, liberal Obama supporter. The only relevancy that has to this case is the fact that the guy had a hair-trigger response to the N word...just like any other black, liberal American.

That doesn't mitigate one bit the core explanation he gave for why he's gone rogue and declared a one man war against LA's finest.

He joined LAPD with an honest attitude that he wanted to "Serve and Protect" his community...but he quickly found out that it really means to Serve and Protect the corruption and savage brutality of his fellow officers abusing their power and authority.

He accurately describes the LAPD's mentality towards the citizenry:

"Don't honor these fallen officers/dirtbags. When your family members die, they just see you as extra overtime at a crime scene and at a perimeter. Why would you value their lives when they clearly don't value yours or your family members lives? I've heard many officers who state they see dead victims as ATV's, Waverunners, RV’s and new clothes for their kids.

Why would you shed a tear for them when they in return crack a smile for your loss because of the impending extra money they will receive in their next paycheck for sitting at your loved ones crime scene of 6 hours because of the overtime they will accrue? They take photos of your loved ones recently deceased bodies with their cellphones and play a game of who has the most graphic dead body of the night with officers from other divisions. This isn't just the 20 something year old officers, this is the 50 year old officers with significant time on the job as well who participate."


Why yes, FrontPage magazine reading Republican Conservatives! Thank goodness we have law enforcement to stand between us and the criminals in our society!

NWA WAS right.

Knock 'em Dead kid.



Anonymous Jake February 09, 2013 9:02 PM  

Since this is the weekend of telling stories about corrupt cops I'll add my own family experience about a corrupt DA.

My grandfather has run a small waste disposal business for at least 30 years, basically leasing dumpsters to retail and construction sites and hauling them off to the landfill. Years back he was arrested and charged with illegally dumping trash on some land he owned rather than the landfill. The only evidence of this was an "anonymous informant". Now of course my grandparents had records going back for years showing that they'd always paid dearly for dumping at the landfill as required, but the DA seized all their books and completely shut down their business for about 9 months. Once the damage was done and they'd spent thousands of dollars in attorney's fees (with zero income for nearly a year) they get a call from their attorney saying that all charges have been dropped due to lack of evidence. We later came to understand that the DA was on friendly terms with a rival business-owner and the "anonymous tip" was probably something more along the lines of "hey you owe me a favor".

I was probably 10-12 at the time and looking back I think of it now as my first, best, lesson in not trusting anything you're told by the government and its news.

Anonymous Noah B. February 09, 2013 9:07 PM  

"That doesn't mitigate one bit the core explanation he gave for why he's gone rogue and declared a one man war against LA's finest."

I don't see any reason not to believe his explanation of what motivated him to kill. To my knowledge the LAPD has been totally silent regarding the substance of his accusations. I searched for some sort of rebuttal or denial but could not find one. Just more of the same sorts of personal attacks against him that motivated him to kill in the first place.

Anonymous Cinco February 09, 2013 9:07 PM  

I think deep down the average American has watched as the police force transformed from "to protect and serve," to "to punish and assess fees." Let's face it they patrol the highways and hand out $200+ tickets for speeding 12mph over the limit, and most people look the other way because they like to pretend that at the end of the day that same cop is actually going to arrest a real criminal (they aren't).

Meanwhile douche bags in banks steal about a couple trillion dollars and not one goes to prison. In fact, the president(s) appoints over a dozen of them from GS alone to positions of influence, and once again we like to pretend that eventually someone is going to go to prison (they aren't).

Now we are fed report after report, of the police arresting 10 year old's for bringing a plastic gun to school (something I did myself as a kid). Our kids are arrested for possession or underage drinking (something I did myself as a kid). Let's face it, at the end of the day the only ones going to jail are us and our kids, and that is why I am rooting for this "mad man." I don't care about skin color, I don't care about his personal agenda. I just want this diseased system to get a sharp stick in the eye.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend...

Blogger Doom February 09, 2013 9:09 PM  

Interesting you noted doctors... that stereotype is gone too. Nothing is sacred now, little can be trusted. So be it.

Anonymous The other skeptic February 09, 2013 9:15 PM  

He is going to make a mistake sooner or later.

The only questions are:

1. How many LAPD and family is he going to get?

2. How many of the public is LAPD going to waste trying to get him.

Should we run an over/under pool?

Anonymous Gx1080 February 09, 2013 9:17 PM  

The overall opinion seems to be:

"Couldn't have happened to a nicer bunch of people".

Heh.

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 9:19 PM  

Aeoli Pera,

"lars,

You seem pretty caught up on the question of viable alternatives to the current police force. I think your concern should be what you will do if someone answers that question indisputably."

perhaps that should be a concern of mine. perhaps it is. in any case, i still have not heard the answer, and i am not sure that there is one definitive, indisputable answer.

Blogger tz February 09, 2013 9:28 PM  

@lars - I had to find a term, and "Constable" doesn't apply to the modern variants (though they may exist). Blue-Coats are merely red-coats updated with all the evils George Washington and the others fought against. But I you seemed to get the idea. They are NOT vigilantes. They aren't pro-government though they may draw a paycheck from them.

Not far south of LA, there is Mexico where the various drug gangs - thugs - kill each other. Somehow I tend to see it as one thug having left his gang of thugs and seeking revenge. In Mexico the corrupt police were just another gang, so the drug gangs could displace them - the citizens just shrugged as they should.

As to families and pets, the Government already crossed that line long ago. A very common threat prosecutors use is to threaten to send your wife to jail for a felony for several years if you don't cut a deal, even if they weren't involved or marginally or indirectly with whatever activity (Michael Milken is one I can immediately think of but they examples are numerous).

This doesn't even open the "war on terror".

Years ago I pointed out that the USA must NOT engage in such evils, not for the sake of the terrorists but for our own national soul. Once we say any end can justify such means, we have lost the moral high-ground. When this happens it isn't some abstract notion. Tell me why it is wrong for this thug to similarly target or do similar things? It is a war after all. All is fair if you have a higher purpose... Or it isn't.

We used to be the shining city on the hill. Willing to suffer even deaths if we needed to in order to play fair. By the rules, the rule of law. By treaties. People would disdain terrorists and actively aid us because we had truth and justice on our side. They used to think of us as fighting for right, so even if they disagreed otherwise they would not aid our enemies.

Now we are as bad as they are. Terrorism is "what they do". But we do the identical things.

Anonymous zen0 February 09, 2013 9:34 PM  

lars said:

perhaps that should be a concern of mine. perhaps it is. in any case, i still have not heard the answer, and i am not sure that there is one definitive, indisputable answer.

You are supposed to be the professional, yet you seem strangely caught up in philosophical musings and seem to think that lay people should supply the answers.

We are the ones with the grievances. You have the training. Fix it already.

Or are you just another PR guy sent to soothe the muppets?

Anonymous DonReynolds February 09, 2013 9:35 PM  

The racial element of this drama has completely eclipsed any other issues. This is to be expected and has been this way for years. Frankly, there was no sympathy on the part of frustrated blacks for Tim McVey or the Davidians at Waco. They did not see any similarity. It is simple tribalism....nothing more.

Anonymous CitizenOutkast February 09, 2013 9:39 PM  

I think the cops should ask themselves what would happen if this had gone on 20, 30, or more years ago. Would the populace be arming themselves and going after this guy to help the cops out, thinking that the cops were worth helping? I'm not sure, but if so, the cops should look at themselves and ask why they don't today. If any cops are reading, I'll tell you why: it's you. It's all you. If you're not an active problem, you're not doing anything against those who are. Don't expect people to even bother trying to figure out if you're a good cop or a bad one. It's getting to be safer to assume you're a bad one.

If this were happening here, and I had my gun trained on this guy right before he was about to shoot a cop, I think I'd have to first ask the cop "what do you think about gun rights" before I'd defend him. How many cops would get saved by the guy with the gun and then turn around and arrest him for some made-up gun violation?

I don't like this guy shooting innocent people at all, and if there are good cops getting harmed I don't like that, either. But if he takes out wannabe stormtrooper types, oh well. That's what happens.

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 9:43 PM  

zen0:

are you a muppet?

Anonymous zen0 February 09, 2013 9:45 PM  

lars said:
zen0:

are you a muppet?


Are you a professional?

Anonymous DonReynolds February 09, 2013 9:46 PM  

I am sorry....this rogue cop was fired from the LAPD five years ago! Kinda hard to reach back that far to get an association. Something else has happened in the meantime.

Of course, there are some occupations that never go away, based on my own experience. Former Roman Catholic priests can never shake it off. Same with anyone who graduated boot camp in the USMC. They will ALWAYS be Marines....just ask one. Same goes for college professors, or cops, or FBI agents, or politicians. No matter what else they every do, they can never shake off being type-cast by their previous occupation.

Blogger Markku February 09, 2013 9:47 PM  

Former Roman Catholic priests can never shake it off

Eww.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 09, 2013 9:50 PM  

Or are you just another PR guy sent to soothe the muppets?

You're smarter than this, zen0. At worst he's feeling us out for right-wing terrism sympathies. But that wouldn't fit his shtick.

He's facing a literal existential crisis, as our nation will in short order. Help him now to help yourself tomorrow.

Anonymous Supernaut February 09, 2013 9:51 PM  

If you're not an active problem, you're not doing anything against those who are. Don't expect people to even bother trying to figure out if you're a good cop or a bad one. It's getting to be safer to assume you're a bad one.

Furthermore, Dorner's case clearly shows there are no good cops anymore. There are those who are actively bad. Than there are those who are not bad, but they turn their head and support the bad with their silence and cooperation. As Dorner clearly shows, those are the cops who get promoted and advanced up the hierarchy. If any of them TRY to be a good cop and "do the right thing" they get their livelihoods, name and reputation destroyed.

In a way, Dorner is GAMING the system. lozlzol

"Oh, so I try to be a good cop, and you set me up and tell the world I'm actually a bad cop?"

Agree and Amplify, baby!

"You want bad cop? I'll show YOU bad cop!!!!!"

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 9:52 PM  

zen0:

"lars said:

perhaps that should be a concern of mine. perhaps it is. in any case, i still have not heard the answer, and i am not sure that there is one definitive, indisputable answer.

You are supposed to be the professional, yet you seem strangely caught up in philosophical musings and seem to think that lay people should supply the answers.

We are the ones with the grievances. You have the training. Fix it already.

Or are you just another PR guy sent to soothe the muppets?"


zen0, any responsible professional with a brain should be concerned with some philosophical musings on his profession. you seem to want it both ways: you want to complain that cops do not think philosophically and simply order you what to do, but then you complain when a cop is willing to have a philosphical discussion with you. that is nonesensical.

if you paid attention to what i have written in the past day or so (and i am assuming that you are intelligent and that you did, if you are addressing me) then you would see that i mentioned several times the concept from sir robert peel that citizens and police should work together. would you prefer that police just make decisions and tell you how it is gonna be?

Anonymous Mr. Pea February 09, 2013 9:55 PM  

You can start by stop enforcing laws that you don't like... laws that prick your conscience, laws that crap on the 10 amendments, laws that have no victim, laws whose only victim is the State... And, you can get that smirk off your face.

Anonymous Stilicho February 09, 2013 10:01 PM  


You seem pretty caught up on the question of viable alternatives to the current police force. I think your concern should be what you will do if someone answers that question indisputably.


Nate answered pretty damned well some time ago: peace officers. Keep the peace, no arrests unless absolutely necessary to keep the peace, issue summons for court appearances when needed, etc.

Anonymous DonReynolds February 09, 2013 10:02 PM  

I have always looked upon the "War on Terror" much the same way as I see the "War on Poverty" or "War on Drugs" or the war on smoking, or obesity, or chewing with your mouth open, or speaking out of turn. In short, it was not really a war as understood in the Constitution, which is a war declared against a rival nation-state.

What we call Terrorists these days have always been a part of the American experience. We used to call them pirates, marauding Indians, foreign spies/saboteurs, anarchists, smugglers, gun runners, and Confederate partisans (Black Flag). Were they considered "enemy combatants" and afforded their legal rights, with protections guaranteed by the Geneva Convention? No...hell no! The pirate captains were tried and hanged, the crew were either killed or tossed in the sea. Indian chiefs were hanged too, but most of their war party were killed out of hand. There was no effort to take prisoners, except the leaders, and they were given a quick trial and hanged.

Anonymous DonReynolds February 09, 2013 10:06 PM  

Former Roman Catholic priests can never shake it off

Markku..."Eww."

Ha Ha.

The voice of Finland. I have missed your comments. Glad you are back now.

Blogger Keoni Galt February 09, 2013 10:06 PM  

I do have to say this. In my time, I've encountered many cops who were reasonable, used their discretion, and put a very human and empathetic face on an unsavory job.

It just seems like more and more of those officers are going the way of the dodo.

It brings to mind the story several years ago when the Houston Texans running back was summoned to the hospital because his Grandmother's death was imminent. A cop pulled him over in the Hospital Parking lot and detained him to write him a speeding ticket. The RB tried to explain the situation and the PIG threatened to arrest him for "resisting arrest" if he didn't stay at the scene while he wrote him the speeding ticket and did a background check on his ID. By the time the PIG issued him the ticket and let him go into the hospital, his Grandmother had already passed away.

NWA was right.

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 10:09 PM  

Mr. Pea,

did you flunk out of marine corps drill instructor school? what smirk are you talking about? i assure you there is no smirk on my face, whether or not there should be.

if you add a comment like that to keep the colour of the thread vibrant, fine. but i am not sure that it is going to help any meaningful dialog.

Anonymous zen0 February 09, 2013 10:10 PM  

lars said:

if you are addressing me) then you would see that i mentioned several times the concept from sir robert peel that citizens and police should work together. would you prefer that police just make decisions and tell you how it is gonna be?

I was going to reference citizen-police liason committees and how they obviously don't work, but I googled it for the US and didn't get anything.

Are there none in your country?? They even have them in Pakistan.

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 10:12 PM  

DonReynolds,

i have appreciated some of your comments, but do you really want to bring back an era of summary executions without trials when you have so little trust in the government? i am a little lost.....

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 10:16 PM  

Stilicho,

"You seem pretty caught up on the question of viable alternatives to the current police force. I think your concern should be what you will do if someone answers that question indisputably.

Nate answered pretty damned well some time ago: peace officers. Keep the peace, no arrests unless absolutely necessary to keep the peace, issue summons for court appearances when needed, etc."


Stilicho, i admire your answer. and i think my puzzlement arises in part because my experience is so close to what you summarazied there. there are very few occasions when an arrest without a warrant is not an offense that will get an officer fired or prosecuted. thieves caught in the act and domestic violence, and DUI arrests are some of the few exceptions. but i know.... my anecdotal experience is of little value compared to what we all see on TV.

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 10:20 PM  

zen0, i am not sure if you have a point other than you do not value conversation with any police officer. fair enough. you are entitled to your opinion.

Anonymous Daniel February 09, 2013 10:21 PM  

I'll say it again:

It is not the quality of men in the force. It is the quantity of force in the system.

Combine drones, cameras, tanks with bureaucracy and political power, and the police force enforces a police state.

The tipping point had very little to do with the percentages of good or bad men in the force. It had much more to do with the percentages of statism endemic to the organization.

Cops should not kill more unarmed civilians each year than mass shooters.

But they do. And the system encourages this.

When the "Survivors of Cop Shootings" children's chorus shows up at the Super Bowl, I can maybe accept that the police state problem is beginning to be addressed.

Until then, it is duck and cover, and shoot back if you have to.

Anonymous Noah B. February 09, 2013 10:21 PM  

lars, perhaps I misinterpreted but I think Don's point was that we as a society handled earlier forms of "terrorism" just fine without adopting a bunker mentality and turning over such massive power to the federal government.

Anonymous The other skeptic February 09, 2013 10:22 PM  

if you paid attention to what i have written in the past day or so (and i am assuming that you are intelligent and that you did, if you are addressing me) then you would see that i mentioned several times the concept from sir robert peel that citizens and police should work together. would you prefer that police just make decisions and tell you how it is gonna be?

The problem is that people tend to side with those that pay them. The British understood this, which is why, during the troubles back in the 1760s and 1770s, they decided to put all judicial appointees on their payroll.

We have the same problem now, don't we.

However, it seems that the time to pay the piper is approaching.

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 10:25 PM  

like it or not, it is the state legislatures in the US that determine most of how law enforcement is run. i have some "philosophical musings", too, on how to better the system. i think that the state governments assume too great a role. why should a thief go to jail? why not make a thief pay the victim four times the amount that was stolen? i think the ancient hebrews had a system like this. basically, what i am saying is that i agree that the entire system of law enforcemnt would work better if citizens were considered victims, more than the state is. this is not an issue that individual police officers can remedy, however..... it must be tackled in the legislative bodies of each stated.

Blogger James Dixon February 09, 2013 10:26 PM  

> You can start by stop enforcing laws that you don't like.

Which would simply get him fired. No, it's past the point where even a good cop trying to do good in the system can do anything.

It's time Lars realized that. The only thing he can do for the system is walk away. The corruption is spreading. It's only a matter of time till it infects the entire system and everyone in it. Those who refuse to be infected will be removed. If they won't go quietly, they'll be removed by force.

Ask yourself a few simple questions, Lars. If you politicians condemned the land of law abiding citizens to sell it off to their business cronies for higher tax rates, would you evict them? When (not if, the statements of dh and Tad should make that clear if nothing else does) the mandate comes down to confiscate the guns of otherwise law abiding citizens, will ou follow orders?

If your answers are no, are you prepared to lose your job and pension for not doing so? And if so, wouldn't you be better off finding another job now, rather than then?

I wish this weren't true. I wish I could tell someone that they actually could be a good police officer and help people. But that simply isn't true any more, except in a very few isolated situations. And those isolated situations are being assimilated as quickly as possible.

Anonymous Stilicho February 09, 2013 10:30 PM  

there are very few occasions when an arrest without a warrant is not an offense that will get an officer fired or prosecuted.

Now that is amusing. Please provide a citation to the statutes that prohibit warrantless arrest. In fact, all that is generally required is the subjective belief by the cop that a crime is being or has been committed. Of course, it is also very easy to believe what you want to believe.

Anonymous Jack Amok February 09, 2013 10:30 PM  

Lars,

I'd like to hear your take on current police training, specifically the training that stresses control and projection of authority. Seems to me officers who follow it come across as jerks even if they are fundamentally decent guys. An old college room mate who became a cop comes to mind - fun guy, likable guy, but when he went into "cop mode" I frankly wanted to pop him in the mouth, and I was his friend. The attitude came off him in waves. It wasn't something he did until after his academy training. He said it was important to maintain control of a situation.

I pointed out that pissing off every person near you isn't necessarily the best way to maintain control of a situation, but he said his trainers knew what they were talking about.

Anonymous The other skeptic February 09, 2013 10:30 PM  

Three bystanders shot by police so far

So, the score is:

Dorner: three dead, one injured, one grazed

LAPD: Two shot, one grazed with glass

Anonymous zen0 February 09, 2013 10:39 PM  

lars said:

zen0, i am not sure if you have a point other than you do not value conversation with any police officer. fair enough. you are entitled to your opinion.

Huh? I asked if there are Citizen-Police liason committees in the United States of America. I would think that would identify me as someone who was interested in knowing if there were avenues in your country for dialogues with police officers.

Maybe when I said your country you thought I was being sarcastic or something but I simply don't live in the US.

Blogger ray February 09, 2013 10:41 PM  

I wonder if the constant repetition of the heroic portrayal of the police saving the day and blowing away the perp, who is usually a white men, has not only programmed the target audiences to believe that white men are evil, but has also helped convince older white men to see police as the enemy.


obviously, it's conditioning -- yes there's a marketing/economic aspect to it, but it's not for "entertainment"

it's called "programming" for a reason

police/lawyer shows exist to help people in the vast LE Fempire convince themselve they're not only necessary, but that theyre the Good Guys

Law and Order Special Victims Unit is an excellent, and v popular example -- it target the lower cortical and limbic areas of fear and violence . . . "episodes" particularly tailored to incite the fear and agression responses in (ahem voting and ruling) women, assuring them that the Next Evil Male Predator is nearby, needs correcting, and heck as long as an actual person i.e. female isnt harmed, well...

the rise of the prison-industrial complex (for, hm, pretty much males only) and the rise of dominant collective female power coincide historically

males have been acting out violently the past twenty years bc of obvious intentional degradations -- much to the financial and power benefits of many interests

Anonymous Jack Amok February 09, 2013 10:43 PM  

Another thing that strikes me. It seems as if every drama on television about either doctors or police.

Y'know, I'm so disappointed with the creativity in TV these days. Seems like everybody with an original idea got chucked out of the industry fifteen years ago. Everything since is recycled ideas. Oddly enough, the BBC - that commie bunch of commies - seems like the only outfit that can do anything decent any more. It's even infected cable. Everything degenerates to the same handful of formulas. Remember when MTV had music videos? And HGTV had DIY shows? And Food Network had Emril and Alton Brown teaching you how to cook? The History channel had shows about history, and the Travel channel had shows about travel? Now they're all "Reality TV" shows. Argh.

Broadcast networks have cop and doctor shows, everybody else has phony-as-hell "reality shows."

Vox and Marcher Lord were able to fire a volley of something different in the publishing business. But TV is still too expensive to do that as an outsider.

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 10:45 PM  

stilicho, here are the cases wherein an officer can make an arrest without a warrant:

felony on sight (observed by the officer).

domestic violence at the misdemeanor lever or greater.

theft.

DUI.

there are no exceptions, and believe me, i have seen officers lose their jobs for violating this paradigm. as far as citations go, that will vary from state to state. and i might add, that in my experience, my colleagues and i rarely even make a physical arrest for most felonies. when at all possible, it is done by summons. i hope that answers your question. a citation would require revealing the state i work in, and while i am sure some of the more astute of you have surmised that, i am not sure i want to write that in the blog at this time.

Anonymous dh February 09, 2013 10:48 PM  

there are no exceptions, and believe me,

The problem is is the definitions of the list of items you just enumerated are broad. There are thousands and thousands and thousands of felonies on the books now.

It does sound nice though that you prefer not to make a physical arrest, but would rather people be summonsed and then turn themselves in at the right time.

Anonymous Tad February 09, 2013 10:51 PM  

@Vox Day

Forget the cops for the moment. When you think of a judge or a district attorney, what is your first thought? Pillar of the community or corrupt tool of an evil and unjust system?

I know a number of judges at a variety of levels in the court system. Do you, Vox Day? I don't think you do. In fact, I don't think you have the first idea what is involved in being a judge any any given level of the judicial system.

Your insinuation is offered without any significant experience at all. Gee, color me surprised: Vox Day made an uninformed comment.


Blogger lars February 09, 2013 10:53 PM  

Stilicho, i have no idea what you find amusing about that idea.

Blogger papabear February 09, 2013 10:55 PM  

"Oddly enough, the BBC - that commie bunch of commies - seems like the only outfit that can do anything decent any more. "

Well, even the BBc has been in decline - its most recent adaptations of novels, the new Upstairs, Downstairs, Sherlock. While they may still look pretty, the quality of the scripts and the characterization has dropped. Mysteries and procedurals may be an exception.

Anonymous Noah B. February 09, 2013 10:55 PM  

In Texas, you can be arrested for pretty much anything, even Class C misdemeanors, which are the very lowest level of offense. There are a couple of specific exceptions although I don't recall specifically what those are, but it is typical just to get a ticket for Class C misdemeanors here without actually being arrested.

Lars, is what you're describing actually the law in your state, or just current departmental policy?

Blogger Markku February 09, 2013 10:56 PM  

a citation would require revealing the state i work in

Come on now, everybody knows it's going to be Minnesota - where else would you find a Lars?

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 10:56 PM  

dh, that list of items is not that broad in reality. could a crooked cop drum up a felony just to make a physcial arrest? possible. but he would probably be caught and face prosecution himself.

what i mean is that the bulk of physical arrests are not going to be felonies. that is a tiny minority of arrests. the bulk of physical arrests will be theft, domestic violence, and DUI.

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 10:57 PM  

Markku, i lied. i am a cop in Rogaland, Norway. hahahahah........

Blogger papabear February 09, 2013 10:58 PM  

"Law and Order Special Victims Unit is an excellent,"

Yes. I think CBS's Criminal Minds is even worse.

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 10:58 PM  

Noah B., that is a great question.... i am talking about state law, NOT departmental policy. it is state law.

Anonymous fnn February 09, 2013 10:59 PM  

DonReynolds -The racial element of this drama has completely eclipsed any other issues. This is to be expected and has been this way for years. Frankly, there was no sympathy on the part of frustrated blacks for Tim McVey or the Davidians at Waco. They did not see any similarity. It is simple tribalism....nothing more.


Amazing (not really) how the MSM at the time covered up the fact that the Branch Davidians were 40% black.

Anonymous Noah B. February 09, 2013 10:59 PM  

Tad, since you claim to understand counting, and we've worked on using a dictionary, let's continue developing those basic skills you seem to be lacking. Do you understand the difference between a question and a comment? Was the excerpt from Vox that you cited a comment, or was it a question?

Anonymous Idle Spectator February 09, 2013 11:00 PM  

[[[[A]]]]Forget the cops for the moment. When you think of a judge or a district attorney, what is your first thought? Pillar of the community or corrupt tool of an evil and unjust system?

[[[B]]]]I know a number of judges at a variety of levels in the court system. Do you, Vox Day? I don't think you do. In fact, I don't think you have the first idea what is involved in being a judge any any given level of the judicial system.


What dah phuk do statements A, have to do with statements B? They literally don't even connect, other than the word "judge" being used in both.


Look, I can prove it by simply replacing the words:

Forget the [vegetables] for the moment. When you think of a [plum] or a [banana], what is your first thought? Pillar of [sweetness] or [tasty] tool of [sour]?

I know a number of [fruit of] a variety of [types] in the [supermarket]. Do you, Vox Day? I don't think you do. In fact, I don't think you have the first idea what is involved in being a [fruit] any any given level of the [supermarket].


Tad, are you even trying anymore?

Or are you just phoning it in now?

Blogger papabear February 09, 2013 11:03 PM  

lars:

"like it or not, it is the state legislatures in the US that determine most of how law enforcement is run. i have some "philosophical musings", too, on how to better the system. i think that the state governments assume too great a role. why should a thief go to jail? why not make a thief pay the victim four times the amount that was stolen? i think the ancient hebrews had a system like this. basically, what i am saying is that i agree that the entire system of law enforcemnt would work better if citizens were considered victims, more than the state is. this is not an issue that individual police officers can remedy, however..... it must be tackled in the legislative bodies of each stated."

I think that both the victim and the harm done to the community (not the "state," according to the modern meaning) must be taken into account. It seems to me that places w/o cohesive communities will not have a good means of reintegrating former prisoners (in particular, the community both extending forgiveness and yet also requiring accountability), and it makes difficult any effective sort of rehabilitative aspect to punishment. Peter Moskos has a book on flogging and how we should reconsider imprisonment as a punishment for less serious crimes. Have you read this book, lars?

Anonymous The other skeptic February 09, 2013 11:07 PM  

Steve Sailer thinks Dorner has been watching Rambo, First Blood

Anonymous zen0 February 09, 2013 11:11 PM  

I can't follow along anymore. Cops is on Fox now. 2 half hour nuggets

Blogger David of One February 09, 2013 11:14 PM  

@lars

That's pretty funny! Rogaland, Norway ... I like it. Thank you for the humor! ;-)

Blogger tz February 09, 2013 11:16 PM  

Police can and often do arrest anyone at any time. They can claim "disorderly conduct", "interference", "Loitering" or something else. It is legal to video police in every state (Illinois courts have ruled so but it is going through the system), yet if police see you recording them, even from a distance, they often will arrest people. (PINAC / photography is not a crime).

These ambiguous charges work, then they can handcuff people, throw them to the ground, and stomp and beat them while shouting "quit resisting!". The videos - some from the police dashcams! - are on youtube. Especially in Chicago / Cook County, there have been and continue to be large settlements.

What is missed is what exactly happens if a false arrest is made? To the cop. If the citizen pursues it, the locality - i.e. taxpayers - might have to fork over cash, but usually between the department and the police union nothing happens. Nothing. No discipline. In the most egregious cases, where the victim spends more time (unpaid!) in the hospital while the cop is on paid leave. The police have effective immunity in 99% of cases. They can be DUI and ram into a car and the driver of the car will posthumously get a ticket. Most commonly they drive over 90mph, even through a school zone, but flash a badge and no ticket. Sometimes the prosecutor drops the charges. Usually when a video comes to light.

You can say what the rules are. If they can be violated without any penalty, and sometimes this is encouraged, the rules don't matter.

But when cops themselves violate the rules - even a small number do but nothing happens, the law, rules, the whole judicial edifice becomes a farce.

It is happening at the higher level since the elites of wall street and war crimes aren't prosecuted. But it goes down to the locality where the police are part of the system. If they aren't going to enforce laws, but merely act like privileged thugs, they will be treated as such. And the difference is if they respect the laws MORE CAREFULLY AND STRICTLY than they hold citizens to. That would take a massive cultural change, at least in the urban areas.

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 11:21 PM  

@Jack Amok:

"Lars,

I'd like to hear your take on current police training, specifically the training that stresses control and projection of authority. Seems to me officers who follow it come across as jerks even if they are fundamentally decent guys. An old college room mate who became a cop comes to mind - fun guy, likable guy, but when he went into "cop mode" I frankly wanted to pop him in the mouth, and I was his friend. The attitude came off him in waves. It wasn't something he did until after his academy training. He said it was important to maintain control of a situation.

I pointed out that pissing off every person near you isn't necessarily the best way to maintain control of a situation, but he said his trainers knew what they were talking about."

jack, i liked your question and wanted to address it for a while, now.... hahahhaha.... typing here could be a full time job......

jack, my buddies and i laugh about this sort of idiot super-trooper behavior all the time. and it does seem that often the female cops struggle with this more than the male cops. i am not sure what the reason for that is, it may be training or physical insecurity, i don't know.

i know it is dangerous for me to be honest here, in some ways. because i can confirm prejudices that you all already have, rightly or wrongly. but the fact is that we are all human, and cops worry about cops and complain about other cops as much as you all do.

eight years on the job, and i have never shot, batonned, pepper-sprayed, or tazered anyone. i have wresteled and i have some scars to prove it (bw, i am not asking for your tears, but you can cry if you want).

there is a saying in the cop world: "no one loves an away game like a cop.". the point being that some departments are more aggressive than others. i simply don't understand why some officers (from departments close to mine) seem to need to shoot a tazer every day (not in my department), while i have never felt the need to shoot one in my career.

my perspective as an officer is that if i must resort to violence, then i need to take a good hard look at how i handled the situation. when someone comes at me agressively, i do not hesitate to put them down. if some idiot throws the race card at me, i give them a severe tongue lashing. but you know what? 99 percent of the time, after that intial burst of energy is spent, we can "almost" be friends.

but even that is a minority of instances. with rare exceptions in police work, it is better to approach people with calmness and respect. it ALMOST ALWAYS works better, anyway.

i think a calm and reasonable police presence works much better than a "forceful" presence. after all, everyone knows you have the gun and the handcuffs when you show up. you might as well be calm and get along. you never know when you might have a good conversation with a guy you arrested or are about to arrest.

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 11:22 PM  

@ Jack Amok:

you might be interested to know that the first level of force on the "use of force continuum" is generally considered to be "mere presence" of officers. that is a fact that good officers should ALWAYS remember.

Anonymous Damage Control Center Announcement February 09, 2013 11:28 PM  

BIG BEAR LAKE, Calif. (AP) — The hunt for a former Los Angeles police officer suspected in three killings continued in snow-covered mountains Saturday as the LAPD's chief said he would reopen the disciplinary case that led to the fugitive's firing.

Officials in particular will re-examine the allegations by Christopher Dorner, 33, that his law enforcement career was undone by racist colleagues, Police Chief Charlie Beck said. While he promised to hear out Dorner if he surrenders, Beck stressed that he was ordering a review of his 2007 case because he takes the allegation of racism in his department seriously.

"I do this not to appease a murderer. I do it to reassure the public that their police department is transparent and fair in all the things we do," the chief said in a statement.

(Hopefully we can bury the other allegations against the LAPD by saying RACISS!)

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 11:33 PM  

@ papabear:

i have not read Peter Myskos. i am skeptical of most public punishments, but i am just a dumb beat cop, not a judge or a senator or a priest or whatever.

was it steffi graff? the tennis player? maybe a decade or so ago, some crazy dude stabbed her, i think. well, the guy committed a violent crime against an innocent person. and he really did not get into much trouble.

and the irony was that steffi graff's father had some tax trouble and the government (not the US government) really threw the book at him. his punishment was more severe than that of the guy who stabbed his daughter. this left an impression on me. i know the story is complicated, as it probably involves mental illness and other issues..... ..... but it still seemed all wrong that the crime with the clear physical and emotional victim did not seem to be judged as severely as the crime against the state.

and it is this kind of thinking that i react against, and try to keep in mind. that was a ramble, but i hope it made some sense.

Anonymous The other skeptic February 09, 2013 11:34 PM  

‘‘From what I've seen of (Dorner's) actions, he feels he can make allegations for injustice and justify killing people and that’s not reasonable,’’ said Capt. Phil Tingirides, who chaired a board that stripped Dorner of his badge. ‘‘The end never justifies the means.’’

Ha ha ha. Tell that to the three bystanders already injured by wild police gunfire.

Anonymous AXCrom February 09, 2013 11:48 PM  

I figure it's only a matter of time... Today I was braced by a pack of three dogs owned by people in my neighborhood while I was cleaning in my garage. I brandished my e-tool (hand shovel), with malice towards the intruders and all three dogs snarled yet backed away. Their owners appeared about a minute later but did not dare set foot into my home, although they were fluent with their admonishments and curses despite the fact that their dogs were the agressors. I advised them that this was Texas and they were welcome to step into my garage if they were ready to accept those consequences. None did. I expect more to follow, little of it going well for myself. Fuck 'em.

Anonymous Idle Spectator February 09, 2013 11:51 PM  

although they were fluent with their admonishments and curses despite the fact that their dogs were the agressors.

Antifreeze. Oh Idle, you big kidder you!

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 10, 2013 12:02 AM  

I advised them that this was Texas and they were welcome to step into my garage if they were ready to accept those consequences. None did. I expect more to follow, little of it going well for myself. Fuck 'em.

This is why I expect Nate's "flashpoint" to be the day Texas goes blue in a presidential election. 8 years? 12, I'd bet. TPTB aren't idiots.

Anonymous The other skeptic February 10, 2013 12:13 AM  

A State Department Video for prospective citizens has an interesting take on the second amendment:

The people have the right to an armed force to protect them

The US State Department: Undermining the Constitution all along.

Anonymous kh123 February 10, 2013 12:30 AM  

"Cops is on Fox now."

Top 3 statements used on that show:

1. I found it.

2. Just trying to get home.

3. I don't know how that got there.

Anonymous bw February 10, 2013 12:42 AM  

zen0 February 09, 2013 11:11 PM

I can't follow along anymore. Cops is on Fox now. 2 half hour nuggets


+1

Wait. Increasing the Money Supply. Inflation.

+4

And the Goldman Suchs/Nuremburg defense of "it's really your fault" isn't going to cut it.

Anonymous Mr. Pea February 10, 2013 12:53 AM  

No lars. When I was an Oath Keeper as a military veteran, I used to go rounds with Ok'er cops like you. The fact is, you enforce the law. It doesn't matter to you if the law is unjust or unconstitutional. The law is the law. And you will keep enforcing the law, no matter how unjust or unconstitutional.

I saw a lot of veterans get kicked out of Oath Kidders for doing nothing more than holding those Oath Kidder cops accountable, and it eventually happened to me.

Unless I missed it, or maybe you haven't gotten around to it yet... you are thinking, "The law is the law. And it is my job to enforce them. If you mundanes don't like the laws, vote them out."

I have heard every cop in OK'ers say that in various ways. You are doing it here... in your own round-a-bout way.

What laws, that you are "legally" bound to enforce, do you NOT enforce? How many times has your conscience been pricked that you personally, in front of your blue brothers, and in the face of your superiors, have you flat out refused to obey and enforce?

None. Because you are still a cop.

You never pulled a gun, or tazed anyone... blah, blah, doesn't cut it. As you said, the show of force is when you show up. Most people who are confronted by you, know that if they take you on, are not only going to go to jail for weed (which you don't like doing), but have the charges escalated to a felony assault on a cop.

And one day, when they get around to gun confiscation and some mundane shoots the confiscator, thousands of cops are going to go berserk and hunt him down like some... piece of trash law breaker.

It boils down to... I don't like it, but I do it anyways. I don't like it, but I do it anyways...

You said it yourself. The law is the law. And you will enforce it no matter how much you don't like, no matter how unjust you think it is, no matter how unconstitutional you think it is.

One has to wonder how far you will go until your conscience burns so bad, that you say it is enough. Or... how far will you go until your conscience is dead?

Anonymous Beau February 10, 2013 1:07 AM  

You seem pretty caught up on the question of viable alternatives to the current police force. I think your concern should be what you will do if someone answers that question indisputably."

perhaps that should be a concern of mine. perhaps it is. in any case, i still have not heard the answer, and i am not sure that there is one definitive, indisputable answer.

Here it is:

1) Adopt Vermont constitutional carry laws. If unable to achieve this, then at least "shall issue" status.
2) Reclaim "peace officer" as a professional standard. Put it back in your academy training, professional journals, policies and procedures, and public relations.
3) Remove, junk, and repudiate the term LEO and all its associated accoutrements of intimidation. You are self-proclaimed predators.
4) Openly support open and concealed carry among citizens - instead of killing them as the Las Vegas PD did to West Point grad Erik Scott.
5) Become comfortable with being filmed by the public. Happily turn over squad car footage when requested. Quit ordering people to turn off, hand over, or damage/lose cameras.
6) Set up a mechanism of accountability to the general public. My local chief took the extraordinary step of going into the community with his command staff to solicit any and all citizen concerns and complaints. He looked into everything presented and returned for follow meetings a few months later. This series of meetings defused years of suspicion and animosity between our local PD and the populace.
7) Make it normal cop ethics to bring to light cop corruption. Honor those who tell the truth. Commend those whose actions ensure honesty and a clean department are maintained in reporting, evidence handling, and treatment of the public.
8) Publicly support our Second Amendment rights.
9) Quit harassing street preachers or anyone else whose messages or opinions you don't happen to like.
10) Voice your determination to support and defend the Constitution of the United States.

These things will go a long way to achieving the end maintaining the peace.

Anonymous FP February 10, 2013 1:12 AM  

Tad: "I know a number of judges at a variety of levels in the court system. Do you, Vox Day? I don't think you do. In fact, I don't think you have the first idea what is involved in being a judge any any given level of the judicial system."

Eh, you're no Lloyd Bentsen Tad. I give it a 6.5. Not totally horrible, needs more gravitas though.

Blogger lars February 10, 2013 1:45 AM  

@Mr. Pea:

"Most people who are confronted by you, know that if they take you on, are not only going to go to jail.... but have the charges escalated to a felony assault on a cop."

if they don't know it, they soon figure it out. i am a patient teacher, though.

Blogger lars February 10, 2013 1:58 AM  

and don't blame oath keepers for anything you hear me say. i have no connection with them. i have heard people say good things, bad things about them. i think that they are an intriguing concept as an organization, but i have had zero experience with them personally.

that said, if they help keep awareness of constitutionality and limited government alive, then good for them.

Blogger lars February 10, 2013 2:20 AM  

beau, that is an awesome "dukes of hazard" of name. as a native born georgian, i salute you. "beats all you never saw, been in trouble with the law since they day they was born..." somehow the allusion seems appropriate in this thread.

now, your "one definitive, indisputible answer" is actually ten answers..... but i won't quibble... because....

..... on a more serious note, i really liked your list. with the exception of rule # 3: i am simply too accustomed to calling myself "predator". i am not sure i could give up such a snappy name. it always impresses chicks in bars.

but seriously, beau, thank you for offering the list. i think it contains much wisdom. i may even share it with my chief.

what i like about your list is that it implies that police and the public actually CAN work together. and you gave concrete, specific ideas on how to address concerns. so, thank you.

Anonymous Jesus H. Christ, aka your Savior. February 10, 2013 2:46 AM  

"My erection for Mitt Romney remains steadfast. I fear that my balls may actually explode."--Jesus H. Christ, as told to Kirk Camerons anus.

Anonymous Shorty February 10, 2013 3:02 AM  

"...there are no exceptions, and believe me, i have seen officers lose their jobs for violating this paradigm."

I want to know what State that's in. I'm in TN and worked in the bar/music venue business for 6 years and saw people arrested and taken to jail on all sorts of nonsensical PI and DOC charges.

Nobody cares if your department is lax enough to allow you to patrol for years without going to your belt. Good for you. It doesn't reflect the average mid-size and larger departments today.

New changes to our Domestic Violence laws require that one party SHALL go to jail unless specific reasons exist to show it was not necessary. If they are doing their job, they are arresting people for DV who have committed no crime. I cringe at the idea that my brothers may go to jail over something that never happened because a neighbor heard them arguing.

One of my own employees was arrested for DUI after leaving work and passed every field sobriety test. "Officer discretion". But he was on probation for a disorderly conduct charge after a guy had started a fight with him at a bar a year earlier, so he was told a Not Guilty plea would have put him back in jail until the court date. So he lost his license, spent 2 days in jail, and now has a job-impeding DUI on his record.

These are only two examples out of dozens by multiple departments and agencies. Nothing bloody to make the news, but enough to breed contempt for every officer we/they have come into contact with sense. For "just doing their job". Regardless of where the law comes from, they're the ones digging into our shit during traffic stops, breaking down doors because of bullshit "exigent circumstances" for college parties, throwing flashlights into cars for driving too fast, and taking our customers and friends to jail for PI when they trip walking down stairs leaving a venue.

You don't use a Taser or OC? Whatever, you're still nobody's friend as long as you're part of a profession that treats people like that.

Anonymous Jack Amok February 10, 2013 4:17 AM  

BTW, there's an interesting comment from "Subotai Bahadur" over on Richard Fernandez' Belmont Club. "Subotai" is an ex-cop (somewhere in Colorado, I think).

Here's his opening paragraph:

"I have not yet read Dorner’s Manifesto in detail, but if he is in fact threatening the Nomenklatura [political, police, media, and celebrity]; he has indeed found the Achilles heel of the entire systemic falsehood that our society has become. All of them are used to and dependent upon there being no Consequences for any actions they take. Deserved or not in this particular case; Consequences that cannot be lied away, bought off, or blocked by fellow members of the Nomenklatura means that they are as lost as the citizens who have found out that they have been and are being lied to."



Anonymous Opdawg February 10, 2013 4:33 AM  

For the corrupt cop files; local story:

Couple of months ago some off duty cop, drunk on the power of the badge and spirit decided to flex his muscle on anyone in his immediate vicinity. He made the mistake of punching out the local deli owner as he walked home after closing shop. When a couple of the locals saw what was up they went to the aid of the beloved deli guy- who was twice the age and half the size of the bully- and put a stop to it by hospitalizing the off duty cop with a series of stomps to the face.
The next day, this quiet little street was engulfed in yellow tape and spawning legions of detectives with pen, notepad, and even sketches.
Every business owner and local resident on the block knew who saved the day that night. But they did not comply.
As it turned out, that cop already had four strikes against him. This was his fifth. But 'protocol' and 'procedure' still had to be followed, you see.

Anonymous MPC February 10, 2013 7:47 AM  

Tad: "I-I know a number of judge-thhh at a variety of level-tthhh in the court sys-tthhh-tem!"

Tad, the sex act you may or may not have committed with the lawyer at the Arby's restroom glory-hole doesn't count as "knowing a judge." But it is always fascinating to hear from our very own bug-chasing coprophiliac. Do tell us some more stories of your "steamy" exploits in America's judicial system!

Blogger lars February 10, 2013 1:12 PM  

@shorty:

with attitudes like yours, i am not about to tell you what state i work in. everyone has a story. i think a point is being reached where it is ridiculous for me to address each assertion of police misconduct.

your DUI example has many holes. maybe you just don't believe in DUI enforcement? and you are entitled to your opnion. but the "field sobriety tests" are only one small part of the puzzle that police put together in deciding whether or not to make an arrest. and how do you know he passed the tests, anyway? did the arresting officer tell you that? did you speak with the officer about what the other reasons where he made the arrest, and what evidence he had?

you mumbling about "officer discretion" in making that DUI arrest is odd, since "officer discretion" is a term generally used for when an officer has evidence for an arrest, but decides not to make the arrest.

regarding domestic violence, i agree that is one of the more annoying parts of my job. the formula for an arrest is thus: if there is a visible injury and corroborating testimoy (almost always from the victim) that a family member or paramour caused the injury in an assault then an arrest must be made. that is the standard. and i am open to intelligent discussion on whether or not that standard should be changed.

ok, further on the "physical arrest" and "jail" issue. "physical arrest" simply means that a person's liberty is taken away from them for a period of time. for 99 percent of the DUIs i have arrested (AND my colleagues), that liberty is only taken for an hour or two. after fingerprinting and photographing the defendant, we almost never even arraign them or set bail (although we could), we drive them home and tell them to look for a summons in the mail.

as far as domestic violence goes, yes... that involves an arraignment, and maybe a few hours in a holding cell waiting for the judge. but most of the bails are set as unsecured, and the majority of defendants do not spend any time in jail after that first couple hours waiting for the judge.

there is a odd dynamic here..... where people want to accuuse police in general of all kinds of horrible abuses of power, and then when i point out that such abuses are not universal, then there is almost an insinuation that my colleagues and i are effeminate and week. this is just absolutely ridiculous.

Anonymous Porky! February 10, 2013 1:45 PM  

MOAR BAD COP STORIES!!!

Blogger lars February 10, 2013 2:10 PM  

i do not want to hijack threads. one concern i have had in addressing comments made to me is that those discussions can become very off-topic from vox's initial thread posts.

regarding this particular thread: vox is on the right track, here. DAs and (especially) judges are notoriously unaccountable. this is something that police even complain about.

perhaps it will make some of you all chuckle and smile, but i have seen innocent police officers get ground up in the republicrip/demoblood system.

of course i know tons of judges and DAs and assitant DAs and public defenders and everyone else. i am a man in the system, i cannot deny that. on the whole, these people are trying to do a difficult job with limited resources with integrity.

on the bright side.... i have been on shift as assistant DAs have been arrested. (that day was a nightmare!! imagine that day as a dumb beat cop!!). so the system is not as unaccountable as some would think.

as a tender 17 year old in my first political theory seminar class, sitting around a table with my professor, i was horrified to hear the definition of government as "coercive force". like it or not, that is what government always has been, and probably always will be.

and that is why i support extreme limitations on governmental power, and a return to a constitutional understanding of government. but what good is a bad constitution, anyway? or a "living constitution" for that matter?...... a constitution can be part of the problem.

i am a little perplexed as i write here and interact with people..... as i try to find common ground and have my attempts thrown back in my face. but these discussions with many of you has been good for me.

Blogger lars February 10, 2013 3:50 PM  

for whatever it is worth, i have no objection to having a private discussion with anyone here, if that persons wants to have a real conversation. i do not mind sharing specifics about where i work and that sort of thing on an individual basis. there a variety of reasons why i don't want to do that on public blog. but paranoia is not one of those reasons. i assure you, i am nothing special. just a beat cop. i think that my experience and authority in the subject matter should be obvious from my writing here, but it really is not that big a deal to be a cop. it is a job, like any other. being a cop does not make a person either a hero or a villain. there are plenty of mediocre cops out there. and maybe sometimes those "mediocre" cops are actually the best variety. letting common sense cut through legal codes and policies and regulations is sometimes the best way "to serve and protect".

Blogger lars February 10, 2013 3:52 PM  

.... but statistically... good natured, kind police officers who have a track record of actually helping people and caring for citizens are the most likely to be be killed in a violent manner while on the job.

Blogger lars February 10, 2013 4:19 PM  

@ shorty:

"...throwing flashlights into cars for driving too fast..."

i am not sure what you are getting at, here, shorty. are you saying that police are physically throwing flashlights (like footballs) into moving cars as they speed by? i have never heard of anything of the sort ever happening. any officer who did that would be fired and probably prosecuted for one of a variety of criminal offenses.

if you are complaining that police "shine" flashlights into cars they have stopped for traffic offenses, then your complaint is utter nonesense, and just another example of an emotional litany of negative feelings toward police.

come on, think about it.... whether or not you agree with the traffic stop (which is a separate issue), a cop would have a death wish if he did not look inside the car he just stopped as he approaches it.

Anonymous Beau February 10, 2013 4:45 PM  

@ lars

It's not uncommon for rookie commentators to catch initial negative attention until the regulars get used to them. You're doing fine, keep commenting.

Anonymous Anonagain February 10, 2013 5:13 PM  

I don't trust people who can't be bothered to use the shift key for correct capitalization. Lars has no problem capitalizing acronyms or abbreviations like DUI and DA, so his keyboard functions properly, therefore one must assume that Lars is either too lazy to push down that little key every so often, or he has some other motive for consistently breaking common rules of grammar. Although small, this is a telling aberration.

Blogger James Dixon February 10, 2013 5:15 PM  

> You're doing fine, keep commenting.

Agreed. As with Sam, an outside perspective is useful.

Blogger lars February 10, 2013 5:37 PM  

@ Anonagain:

you actually made me laugh out loud. that is unbelieveable. other than laziness, what nefarious motive could i have for my refusal to capitalize?

i must admit i never saw that one coming.

i have heard that the illuminati generally refuse to capitalize, while the knights templar wrote solely in capitals. so, you may be onto something, there......

Anonymous Anonagain February 10, 2013 5:41 PM  

Nothing nefarious, just something off. You, yourself, may be unaware of it.

Blogger lars February 10, 2013 5:44 PM  

the answer to why i do not use the shift key is contained in the paragraph in which i introduced myself to the blog, and if you do not have the brains to figure it out, then i really do not care for your opinion.

on the other hand, if you are joking and i missed your sarcasm, then maybe we can continue this asonine conversation if it amuses you.

Blogger lars February 10, 2013 5:45 PM  

ok, so it was not sarcasm. some of you people are unreal. of all the things that we could invest our time in, and you want to talk about capital letters?

Anonymous Anonagain February 10, 2013 5:48 PM  

Never read your introductory paragraph and I'm not going to find it. Whatever your justification may be, what's obvious is that you haven't the discipline to use the shift key. Case closed.

Anonymous Anonagain February 10, 2013 5:51 PM  

Also, I have no intention of pursuing the matter, nor investing any more time on it. I was simply making an observation.

Blogger lars February 10, 2013 5:55 PM  

Anonagain, there was absolutely no reason for your rudeness and bad manners, unless you felt a threat by something that i wrote.

Anonymous Anonagain February 10, 2013 6:05 PM  

Now, you begin to reveal yourself. I was never rude, nor did I exhibit bad manners. And what possible threat could any of your comments pose to me? I stated my personal opinion based on an observation. The fact that you can't tolerate this slight against your character and must blow it out of proportion does rather tend to prove my point.

Blogger lars February 10, 2013 6:19 PM  

this is really interesting.... amateur, but interesting.

Anonymous Anonagain February 10, 2013 6:28 PM  

Glad you finally composed yourself, Lars. But you slipped up and everyone saw it.

Blogger lars February 10, 2013 6:29 PM  

i am not sure why that would even matter if it were true.

Anonymous Anonagain February 10, 2013 6:30 PM  

Truth always matters.

Blogger lars February 10, 2013 6:34 PM  

and what is your point?

Anonymous Anonagain February 10, 2013 6:40 PM  

I already made my point and you proved it. Now, it's all just extraneous blabber of which I am tiring. Thus, I take my leave.

Blogger lars February 10, 2013 7:18 PM  

Anonagain, i will write one more post on this subject of capital letters. and you can make of it what you will. and then i will take my leave from this blog. it has been a long three days. of being "outgrouped".

and when you finish your treatise: "Capitalization and Cops: the Inside Story of Punctuation and the Police State", then i will gladly take a look.

you did strike me to the quick with that capital letter thing. and i don't mind saying so. but not for the reasons you think.

why you had any interest in trying to arrange a psychological game is beyond me.

writing with no capital letters reminds me of long afternoons reading the greek new testament with my greek professor, years ago. they are good memories. yeah...... you barged into a room in my soul that i like to keep private.

but, if this blog is going to be about me and my memories and my psychology, then it is time for me to wish you all well, thank you for the conversation, and move on.

Blogger papabear February 10, 2013 7:44 PM  

lars I hope you will stick around and lurk at least; I have enjoyed reading your observations and anecdotes.

Anonymous Anonagain February 10, 2013 8:02 PM  

I suppose I need to respond here.

Don't go away on my account. I am not a regular poster. You wouldn't want to disregard the generous comments of the regulars who have encouraged you stick around.

But you were all over the place with that last comment. Not once did I hint at the slightest correlation between your being a cop and my observations regarding those who don't use capital letters. You clearly have issues.

And this blog is about many things, but you may rest assured that it isn't focused on your memories and psychology. It is you who insists on not capitalizing correctly, thus bringing attention to your memories in every single one of your comments.

Blogger lars February 10, 2013 8:10 PM  

Anonagain, i meet all sorts of criminals on a regular basis. and i have never had an exchange with any of them that was nearly as creepy and disturbing as the one that you initiated. you think i have issues? whoever you are, it is well past time that you take a good, hard look in the mirror.

Anonymous Anonagain February 10, 2013 8:18 PM  

Your slip is showing again, Lars. There was nothing creepy or disturbing about my comments. In fact, you substantiated my observations.

You are digging yourself in deeper with your ludicrous attempts to make me look bad in an effort to redeem yourself.

Blogger lars February 10, 2013 8:23 PM  

apparently we live in different universes. you are welcome to remain in yours.

Blogger lars February 10, 2013 8:33 PM  

you know what? i am going to great you a point. which i have referenced in a post above. it is possible that i am a bit edgey and sensitve right now, and that i could over-react. i work in the real world (albeit one full of violence and criminals). i do not spend my life online. i am not used to "blogging", and i am not used to ethereal chatter like this. so, three days of trying to have conversations with people, and having so many of my attempts thrown back at me and ridiculed. look.... whatever. i am a human being. i probably have stayed here too long already. but if you seriously think that your method of public conversation, from the first indirect "salutation" is not creepy and disturbing..... well, there is nothing more to say.

Anonymous Anonagain February 10, 2013 8:42 PM  

Go back to the real world, where you can arrest people for making you feel uncomfortable, Lars. I'm happy to be here in the comfort of my home, far away from your jackboots, quite satisfied, and rather surprised, that it was so easy to expose you for being the unbalanced fraud you really are.

Ta-ta.

Blogger papabear February 10, 2013 8:49 PM  

lars, you're fine.

Blogger lars February 10, 2013 8:59 PM  

unbalanced fraud? what i find interesting is that you never talked about a single idea that i wrote on related to this thread, or any of the threads i have commented on. that being the case, who felt the threat? apparently your ideas and convictions are not as strong as the pleasure you feel in attempting psychological games. adios.

Anonymous Anonagain February 10, 2013 9:02 PM  

Lars, you're flailing is almost endearing. But, Downton Abbey is on now. I'm outta here.

Blogger lars February 10, 2013 9:09 PM  

papabear, i appreciate that.

and to the blog in general, i apologize for hijacking the thread; i had no intention of doing so. it is rare that i come across a conversation so deranged as these past few postings with Anonagain. a sense of disbelief is often what a person feels when he encounters maliciousness. and i sit here amazed. truly amazed.

Blogger mmaier2112 February 10, 2013 10:24 PM  

Anonagain: you're acting the arse. Just thought you might want to know.

Anonymous Daniel February 10, 2013 11:19 PM  

lars, you didn't hijack anything. Hijacking, in fact, is fairly hard to do, especially since your background and insights are so dead on topic. I appreciate your participation.

Anonymous Jack Amok February 11, 2013 1:24 AM  

Lars,

I agree with Daniel, no hijacking at all.

You meet all kinds in on the Internet. It's perfectly acceptable to ignore some of them. God knows I ignore my share of regular posters here.

Anonymous Rufus February 11, 2013 5:49 AM  

I read VD daily. I read a lot of blogs (I know, a little sad). I automatically skip over anything not capitalized, displaying excessive use of text speak or street jingo, or poorly punctuated. It doesn't read nicely, and is a waste of my time. I actually had to go back and labour through your posts, lars. Not that my preferences should concern you in the least, jus' saying is all. And you have to admit, you went a little bitchy there very quickly after a perfectly innocuous observation. Anonagain has a point.

Anonymous Rufus February 11, 2013 5:52 AM  

Kumbaya all around.

Scumbag that he is, I hope Dorner disappears and is never heard of again. If he is apprehended, they'll certainly shoot him. Probably in the back. By 6 officers and 50 odd rounds.

Anonymous spurlinghound February 11, 2013 7:02 AM  

lars, two things I've lerned @ vp:

rabbits gonna rabbit

grammar nazis gonna nazi

So lars, please do continue.

Anonymous Anonagain February 11, 2013 4:13 PM  

Oh, spurlinghound, you forgot one:

gammas gonna white knight

I'm sure Lars feels so much better now that you've come to his rescue.

Anonymous michael February 28, 2013 6:34 PM  

last week I was watching hawaii 5.0 one of the main characters goes on a diatribe against gun ownership. 1 scene later he violates a citizens rights against search and seizure because he had a good reason. I doubt the producers even noticed

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