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Wednesday, February 13, 2013

Mailvox: an ex-cop's take

A former police officer emails his perspective on the end of the Dorner manhunt:
Observations/Questions

I'm not sure of the circumstances concerning what the media said as to why the truck had burned, but why would Dorner have burned out his own truck along with survival gear, etc. knowing he would be on foot in snow territory? He wasn't worried about concealing evidence of a crime.

When my wife and I saw the first pictures of his truck days ago, she said.... "his body will be found in a burned out building."

I was watching media coverage of what was called a "raid" on Dorner's mothers house.  I don't recall the timing, but my first thought was.."they should have been there days ago."  During the raid, the camera angle was from directly in front of the house. The "team" that was moving in on the house was one of those you see that are wearing blue jeans, t-shirts and tennis shoes as opposed to the "black ops" with helmets and shields and battering rams.....

They ALL walked up to the front of the house... the front door....  My thought was.... they KNEW this guy wasn't in there. The other cops are shooting at ladies in trucks and these guys walk up to the front door of Dorner's mothers house??? Go figure.

We are entertaining the notion that they got him earlier (drone practice?) and the rest was for show.
People do strange things when they are on the run.  Foolish and insensible things that in retrospect look downright crazy.  And Dorner might have been marginally more intelligent than the average LAPD member, which quite clearly isn't saying much.  And knowing that Dorner isn't at his mother's house shouldn't be confused with knowing where he was or his health status.

I very much doubt they got him earlier and were simply going through the motions for public consumption.  This is my opinion: The police bumbled around until Dorner's carelessness caught up with him.  Having already been outshot by him twice, and with the police-only body count standing 3-0 in Dorner's favor, (remember that the daughter's fiance was a cop), they weren't about to take any chances with him.  So, they chased away the media and set fire to the building, hoping that he'd either come out and get shot or shoot himself before the flames got too hot.

That is, of course, assuming that Dorner isn't much more clever than he appears to be and the body in the building is a black man of similar build that he took hostage.  But there is no reason to believe that to be the case, unless LAPD police suddenly start dropping dead in a few months.

I'm a little surprised Dorner tried to go to the wilderness when he could have simply stocked a hiding place somewhere in the city, then emerged only at night to hunt police.

Labels:

138 Comments:

Anonymous RedJack February 13, 2013 9:27 AM  

I heard that there was a big police convention in Big Bear that was scheduled for this past weekend.

My only question is this. If Dorner was serious about "declaring war on the LAPD", then why post a manifesto stating so? That was what turned them on to him in the first place.

My point being, I think that Dorner's motivation was other than what he stated it was. In other words I suspect he wanted the infamy associated with his acts, rather than the stated goal.

Anonymous Stilicho February 13, 2013 9:28 AM  

Have you heard the recordings of the police saying "burn it down" and "burn this motherfucker down" etc.? It's too late for them to claim it was an accidental fire or one set by Dorner.

Anonymous Other Josh February 13, 2013 9:29 AM  

I wouldn't be suprised if the charred body is not Dorner's. It could be... but I wouldn't be surprised.

I also would not be surprised if the cops shot at the cabin weren't shot by their own rather than shot be Dorner. These trigger happy idiots probably had a firefight amongst themselves and were convinced they were fighting Dorner the whole time.

Anonymous Jerome Horowitz February 13, 2013 9:29 AM  

I questioned his mental acuity, when he tried to steal the boat in San Diego, and screwed that up. Then instead of stealing another boat, he drives from San Diego up to Big Bear?

Blogger TontoBubbaGoldstein February 13, 2013 9:30 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger TontoBubbaGoldstein February 13, 2013 9:35 AM  

*
Oh he talked a good game on Facebook. I think the only preplanned murders were the first two. Then he planned to escape to Mexico. When that was thwarted, he made a run for the hills, shooting at targets of opportunity. 
Truck broke down.
I predicted he'd be found wirhin a 5 mile radius. (I really thought a half mile radius, but hedged a bit.)

Lot of trash talk...but that was about it. 

Typical. 

Apparently was a decent shot, though.

Anonymous Josh February 13, 2013 9:39 AM  

They'll claim the body is dorner's.

Anonymous DrTorch February 13, 2013 9:41 AM  

Lotta eyes in a city. Lotta people you don't even know exist are around to see you and provide a tip to the cops.

A tip like that would be golden too.

Getting to the wilderness makes sense, finding a way to lay low for 10 days, would be best.

I read some summary of types of revolutionaries...Donner fit into the loner category. Good for some propaganda but not sustaining things in long run. Very hard to go it alone.

Blogger Tiny Tim February 13, 2013 9:47 AM  

It is all deception. The discussion at the highest levels is not "we have to get this guy off the streets before he kills anyone else".

The discussion is "we have to kill this guy so we can start the coverup".

That is why the neanderthals were whipped into a frenzy by their masters and burned him and everything associated with him (hard drives, flash drives, phones, papers, etc.)

Anonymous JMAC February 13, 2013 9:54 AM  

I heard a report that the police told news choppers to move away because Dorner probably had TV. Earlier in the day the owner of the cabin stated that there was no cable, no phone, no internet or TV. Could he have had live commercial TV video through a 4G device up in those mountains?

Anonymous SD February 13, 2013 9:54 AM  

Pussies like Dorner always commit suicide. Or as I call it, "doing society a favor..."

The sad part is we no longer get to watch the "Donner Cheer-leading Squad" on Twitter. Yes, as you'd expect, they are all black, all Obama voters, and all happy with Donner's actions for the exact OPPOSITE reasons y'all are cheering him (i.e. because he was shooting Evil White Guys, like you).

Blogger Hermit February 13, 2013 9:59 AM  

I was curious if he could get by in the ghetto for awhile. Not sure if he would be welcomed or not due to his blackness vs being an ex-cop. The code of "no snitching" could have been a great boon to him.

Blogger OGRE February 13, 2013 9:59 AM  

I'm not buying it. It just doesn't smell right.

"Oh yeah, um, his body got burned up, and all his stuff did too. So um yeah nothing to see here...move along..."

If it was anybody else other than LAPD saying it, I might believe it...

Anonymous JMAC February 13, 2013 10:04 AM  

The fire and killing of this man was certainly intentional. They were in the mountains and had him surrounded. They burned the building intentionally. No matter how you spin this, it shows the LAPD had no intention of letting this man go before a judge.

Contrast that with the recent state supreme court judge (Indiana I believe?) that stated if someone breaks your door down and THEN says they are the police no one should have the right to defend themselves, they should settle any grievances in court after the fact. Riiiiight Anybody listening?

Anonymous Jack Amok February 13, 2013 10:08 AM  

Interesting how fractured the stories are. One story says he broke into one house (they call them cabins, but they're really houses) Thursday night, tied the couple up and held them hostage until around noon Tuesday when he left, with one of the hostages getting free and calling the police. Another story says two maids arrived Tuesday morning to clean a vacant house and surprised Dorner, who tied them up and left around noon. One of the maids was able to get free and call police.

And apparently he came across two separate two-man Fish & Game units? When the place is crawling with cops? And their command post was practically across the street from where he was holding the hostages/maids?

Well, truth really is stranger than fiction, since no author is compelled to explain it to us afterwards. But this is one has been a doozy.

Anonymous The other skeptic February 13, 2013 10:14 AM  

The consequences of affirmative action hiring and myths about unfair discrimination

Anonymous Stilicho February 13, 2013 10:23 AM  

Contrast that with the recent state supreme court judge (Indiana I believe?) that stated if someone breaks your door down and THEN says they are the police no one should have the right to defend themselves, they should settle any grievances in court after the fact. Riiiiight Anybody listening?

One of the amusing things about that decision is that the clown-in-a-black-robe writing it did not realize that the same restriction could easily and logically be applied to the police: no need for raids, especially no-knocks or warrantless raids, just surveil everything and settle up in court afterwards. If the popo break in, they have no cause for complaint about the consequences when they could have just waited.

Anonymous scoobius dubious February 13, 2013 10:36 AM  

Clearly there is an Achievement Gap between crazy black rogue cops driving around shooting people, and crazy white rogue cops doing same. We must do whatever it takes, contort our whole society into knots if need be, to close this gap!

Anonymous Macgawd February 13, 2013 10:40 AM  

I wouldn't put too much stock in the intelligence of a man who thought that killing the people responsible for him losing his job was going to "clear his name".

Blogger WATYF February 13, 2013 10:47 AM  

There is evidence to support your hypothesis, Vox...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNk-bV40XMc&feature=youtu.be

Blogger Astrosmith February 13, 2013 10:50 AM  

I'm a little surprised Dorner tried to go to the wilderness when he could have simply stocked a hiding place somewhere in the city, then emerged only at night to hunt police.

That would make a good comic book. Anti-Batman.

Anonymous Outlaw X February 13, 2013 10:50 AM  

People do strange things when they are on the run.

He's a lonely man
Lived his life by the
Some day he'll pay
For the things he has done.

He's a man of courage
With the wisdom of a fool
He lived jis life
Breaking all the rules.

Riding through El Paso
From the border of Mexico
There's a trail of dead men
Every where he go's

Tough Texas lawmen
And the widows by the graves
And the brothers of the church
All want to see him hang.

CHORUS
There is nothing worse than dying
But he knows the time mus come
He'll have to pay
For the things that he has done
He'll take the Bullet
He'll never give up the gun
Because there is nothing quite as desperate
As a man on the run

With his head up on his saddle
And the campfire in his eyes
Two men behind him
Take him by surprise

He sees a rifle
Then he sees a flash
He pulled his gun
but he shot last

2ND CHORUS
There is nothing worse than dying
But he knew the time would come
He'd have to pay
For the things that he had done
He took the Bullet
He never gave up the gun
There is nothing quite as desperate
As a man on the run


Anonymous Desmond February 13, 2013 10:52 AM  

Better hope this guy's not a Muslim, or they'll bury him at sea (in accordance with Islamic tradition, remember?) and we'll *never* see a body.

Anonymous scoobius dubious February 13, 2013 10:56 AM  

I just wish he had shot that damn purple rabbit before he checked out.

Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus February 13, 2013 11:06 AM  

And he didn't even have the courtesy to take Rapey McRaperson with him when he went down.

Anonymous JMAC February 13, 2013 11:11 AM  

"Interesting how fractured the stories are. One story says he broke into one house (they call them cabins, but they're really houses) Thursday night, tied the couple up and held them hostage..."

He left the house where the hostages were and drove to another place. During that run he shot at a forest service officer. The house he was burned in had no hostages. It was a summer cabin surrounded by six smaller cabins. According to the owner it had no cable TV and no phone services. At least that's what I read yesterday.

Anonymous Lysander Spooner February 13, 2013 11:24 AM  

The PoPo's gave Dorner the Waco treatment.

Anonymous Rex Little February 13, 2013 11:39 AM  

I'm a little surprised Dorner tried to go to the wilderness when he could have simply stocked a hiding place somewhere in the city, then emerged only at night to hunt police.

That might have been his plan. Going to Angelus Oaks (straight downslope through the woods on foot, but an hour away from Big Bear by car) got him away from the mass of searchers, and he could have planned to steal a car there and get downhill to a city before anyone knew he was gone.

What I don't know is, were there already a lot of police in Angelus Oaks when he tied up the maids and stole the car? If not, he might have got away if he'd killed them. He showed, then and later (when he carjacked a truck) that he didn't want to kill anyone who wasn't police.

Anonymous civilServant February 13, 2013 12:03 PM  

From http://www.infowars.com/lapd-audio-from-dorner-siege-burn-this-motherfucker/:

Given the ammunition inside the cabin, LAPD officers knew that the tear gas would lead to a fire and instead of waiting it out, chose instead to carry out a summary execution. That’s not to excuse the actions of Dorner, but the fact that police now view burning people to death as a reasonable way to apprehend a suspect is shocking.

As Mike Adams writes today, “If the LAPD is going to abandon its mission of public safety and function as an armed vigilante justice squad, dishing out death sentences to those it believes are guilty — without a trial or anything resembling due process — then they might as well throw away all their badges as just call themselves the LA Gang Squad. Because that’s how they’re acting.”


I am curious. One often hears libertarians propose private security forces - forces that are privately paid and privately owned. Would such forces operate differently from this?

Anonymous DA February 13, 2013 12:04 PM  

Yes, as you'd expect, they are all black, all Obama voters, and all happy with Donner's actions for the exact OPPOSITE reasons y'all are cheering him (i.e. because he was shooting Evil White Guys, like you).

I don't think many people here were cheering him. More like Kissinger's take on Iran vs Iraq.

Anonymous Mina February 13, 2013 12:08 PM  

slightly OT: Sig Sauer P226 E2 9mm. Shot it this weekend. Smooth as silk. It won several awards in 2011 ... anyone have experience with it?

Valentine's Gift ... from us to us :-)

Anonymous Daniel February 13, 2013 12:11 PM  

First clue something wasn't right was this was a massive cop exercise. Second clue was the no fly zone.

They wanted to make sure there wouldn't be any footage like at Waco, when 100+ ATF soldiers in blue just walked away from those peoples' house following the ceasefire. That, in a few minutes of footage expressed to the world that:

1) They weren't serious about being effective paramilitary
2) Their stated objective was not their actual objective
3) The criminal was more merciful and less violent than the peacekeeper
4) They were willing to make a failed power grab from the FBI at the cost of American citizens' lives.
5) They were above the law, and not benevolent.

Anonymous Lysander Spooner February 13, 2013 12:12 PM  

Sig Sauer.

It is Swiss, what else do you need to know.

I prefer a .45, but the 9 is better for the Gals.

Anonymous JartStar February 13, 2013 12:16 PM  

I am curious. One often hears libertarians propose private security forces - forces that are privately paid and privately owned. Would such forces operate differently from this?

Rothbard tried to deal with the police issue and he was mostly unsuccessful. I have yet to hear a practical solution for police for a "Libertarian" government. I believe it is one of the weakest links in the libertarian world view.

If the police were completely privatized they'd just be hired enforcers and thugs, but the advantage (perhaps) is distributing the thuggery amongst many smaller organizations rather than one monolithic organization like the LAPD. History doesn't really support this view a la the Pinkertons.

Anonymous Daniel February 13, 2013 12:32 PM  

I disagree JartStar. What part of of privatization causes employees to disregard the standards of their service?

Private police tend not to "fight crime" as much as they protect against loss. In other words, the private cops are more likely to identify their client's defenses and protocols, and investigate any loss as a matter of recovery, not prosecution. So, drugs are not a concern if no other crime is involved. Warrants and people-moving are not a priority. Prevention becomes a deliverable, not a PSA.

Police have been completely privatized around the globe and throughout history in numerous instances. Do you have any evidence of an increased incidence of thuggery vs. state run systems?

Anonymous cherub's revenge February 13, 2013 12:34 PM  

Dr TorchLotta eyes in a city. Lotta people you don't even know exist are around to see you and provide a tip to the cops.

A tip like that would be golden too.

Getting to the wilderness makes sense, finding a way to lay low for 10 days, would be best.


Lotta eyes that pay no attention in the big city.




Cities are a much better hiding place than rural or remote areas for a fugitive from what I've gathered.

I have an acquaintance who is a homicide detective in another Midwestern state. We were talking about known but disappeared suspects one evening and I asked "how many do you catch within a year". He said "more than 50% but probably less than 75%". "Where do you figure they go" I asked. "Down where you live" was his reply.

These are just black thugs also. No criminal masterminds is he tracking.

He said they estimate 90% from his jurisdiction hide out in Chicago. He said the Chicago police are the absolute worst on picking up wanted suspects.




My Chicago cop friends had no rebuttal when I brought this up.

Chicago police don't do much traffic duty. Something like just 35 squad cars in the whole force have radar equipped cars. Traffic stops are a big way to find wanted men.

Just something the Ilk might want to keep in mind when they need to go rogue some day.

Anonymous Josh February 13, 2013 12:35 PM  

Oh hell...someone said 9mm...gonna be another marathon thread...

Anonymous Josh February 13, 2013 12:37 PM  

If the police were completely privatized they'd just be hired enforcers and thugs

So...what are they today?

Blogger Bruce Lewis February 13, 2013 12:45 PM  

"Burn that fucker down!"

"Burners deployed. We have a fire."

- LAPD scanner audio

Wacoed, just as I told you all he would be.

Big Blue will not tolerate a public loss of face. They will burn you alive if you make them look like fools.

Of course, our cop friend Lars would have bravely refused to participate in the immolation of Dorner (or whomever was in that house). "I have my doubts about the constitutionality of burning accused cop-killers alive. Fortunately, my superiors let me sit in my squad car eating donuts while they do the burning. Moral hymen: intact."

I don't care about Dorner. If he's dead, good riddance. But if the cops can deliberately burn him to death, they can do the same to you.

SLA 1974. MOVE, 1975. Waco, 1993. Dorner yesterday. You and yours? Maybe tomorrow.

Anonymous jay c February 13, 2013 12:46 PM  

Obama's people must have gotten involved towards the end, because there are now too many unbelievable elements to the official story. They are either total amateurs or they have zero respect for the American people. Probably both.

Anonymous Cinco February 13, 2013 12:47 PM  

@Daniel

I think there is a distinction that needs to be made between police vs. guards, and you are correct. However, I too fail to see how a private police force would not abuse their powers. I would be interested to see the number of Sherrifs convicted of felonies vs. the number of police. (I know Sherrifs aren't private, but they are accountable to the public in a way)

Blogger Giraffe February 13, 2013 12:49 PM  

I wonder in the end, how much this one guy cost the taxpayers. Overtime, manpower. Lawsuits and legal fees over shot up people, vehicles, and burned up cabins.

Anonymous Clay February 13, 2013 12:53 PM  

@cherub's revenge

"Lotta eyes that pay no attention in the big city."

Hell, for a one million dollar reward, I'd be reporting every big, bald-headed black guy I saw, just in case I hit the jackpot.


Anonymous DonReynolds February 13, 2013 12:55 PM  

I agree, Vox. A 270 pound bald black man cannot hide in a rural area of the USA. That would be impossible, without the help of locals and he never saw the light of day. In black urban areas, he could be a needle in a haystack. He could hide almost anywhere and they would never find him without a snitch. But in the desert, or a mountain wilderness, or in a small town or rural area, he might as well wear an orange flightsuit. Did the fugitive know that? Most certainly. So either we say he was cooperating with LAPD in their drama or he wanted the showdown. I believe this is what he wanted.

What are the other possible outcomes? A humiliating show trial followed by incarceration? Even if prison is only a 10 or 15 year wait for capital punishment, every cop knows how long they would survive in state prison. Somehow make it to Mexico? Heck, the Mexicans would have him stuffed and mounted for a tourist attraction. No, a shootout was the only way this could end, saving the last round for himself. (Yes, I know. It was not his last round.)

Anonymous Matt February 13, 2013 12:59 PM  

However, I too fail to see how a private police force would not abuse their powers.

I'm not a libertarian theorist or even a Mises-style libertarian at all, but one example might be private citizens with concealed carry permits. They're not exactly private police but they can and do prevent crime against themselves, without any systemic abuse of their right to carry firearms.

From this view, the problem with "police powers" is less the "police" and more the "powers".

Blogger Latigo3 February 13, 2013 1:04 PM  

I have vacationed in Big Bear several times and I think it was not a good decision on Dorner's part to hide in Big Bear, if he really wanted to carry out he wrote. Big Bear is not the place to hide out, there are only a couple of ways in or out (by road).
Living in LA, it was a fun 9 days. Makes one wonder, if the LAPD is that incompetent in getting one man, what will they do when the Mexican drug cartels really make a push for power (not just drug sales)? When that happens, they may realize that it is a lost cause and then legalize drugs, that would make for more tax dollars.

Anonymous daddynichol February 13, 2013 1:08 PM  

Kind of OT, but this is a prime example of hysteria surrounding firearms. The person (a friend of mine) posted this on FaceBook.

Ya know, I understand your needs and wants to keep your guns and I respect that..What I wish is that you would respect me enough to NOT post a picture or forward one that is looking right down the barrel of one... That freaks me out, and quite honestly offends me. It is like someone is pointing one right at my head...Very much dislike that.. Just saying... It pisses me off everytime I am scrolling and bam, there is a gun pointed right between my eyes...What is that telling or reinforcing to me? That CRAZY people should not have guns.....Would you point a gun at me to make a point? Well, then stop doing it please.

So now, a mere picture of a gun on a social media site is enough to cause offense and brand people as crazy! She is also a social worker, rescues animals, loves horses and refused to follow any of the Dorner story because it was too upsetting. Can this be any more predictable? I keep her around just to have a good laugh.

Anonymous Daniel February 13, 2013 1:13 PM  

How is a private police force inherently more prone to abuse than a private school, for example?

I need something more tangible than "it feels like it might."

Anonymous DonReynolds February 13, 2013 1:15 PM  

You will get the Libertarian version of private cops as soon as the insurance companies start writting crime insurance policies. It is only then that you will find cops that actually act pro-actively to PREVENT crime against persons and property. Insurable risk has a dollar bill attached to it and it is a simple matter to decide how much protection is warranted. Let everyone decide for themselves how much their oily hide and their personal crap is worth....and take out an insurance policy accordingly....and pay the associated premiums. We are already headed in that direction now. Many people already know that the state and local police never protected anyone or their junk from crime....normally they get the call too late, but even if they got the call ahead of time, they will not act until AFTER a crime is committed.

One can argue that the threat of police intimidate and inhibit a certain amount of crime. No doubt this is true. You could even argue that the police occasionally identify those guilty of a crime, so they can be picked up or chased down, thus preventing future crimes by taking them off the streets. But this is not good enough for me or a good many other people. It does not put a smile on my face to think that my murderer might be caught by police long after I am dead. I do not want to be shot dead by a crackhead for the twenty dollar bill I have in my wallet, just because he wants another fix. That is why the police have failed to protect us. They do not see it as their job, except indirectly. Call it a beneficial byproduct or spillover to their pest control effort.

Anonymous Dan in Tx February 13, 2013 1:16 PM  

Quit scaring the rabbits daddynichol.

Anonymous Mina February 13, 2013 1:21 PM  

"She is also a social worker, rescues animals, loves horses and refused to follow any of the Dorner story because it was too upsetting."

Not sure about the social worker stuff but animal rescuers are mostly totally insane, illogical, irrational women (is that redundant??) that are best to ignore.

Most of the horse women I am friends with (basically that's ALL of the women I am friends with) are 100% 2nd amendment supporters, hunt and shoot and CCW if they can.

YMMV I guess.

Anonymous Daniel February 13, 2013 1:25 PM  

Ya know, I understand your needs and wants to keep your guns and I respect that..What I wish is that you would respect me enough to NOT post a picture or forward one that is looking right down the barrel of one...

Proper response: Ya know, I understand your needs and wants to control other people's photographs, but what I wish is that you would respect me enough NOT to send such hurtful, cruel and intolerant comments my way. I believe that I am a very good photographer, and for you to treat my pictures like they are some sort of failure is just judgmental and mean. Do you tell old women to stop sharing pictures of their grandchildren because you think the kids are ugly? What sort of a complete and total ruthless bastard are you?

Anonymous MarkP February 13, 2013 1:27 PM  

FYI the Toronto Star is reporting the cops may have started the fire.

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2013/02/13/christopher_dorner_rogue_exlapd_officer_believed_dead_after_standoff.html

Anonymous civilServant February 13, 2013 1:37 PM  

If the police were completely privatized they'd just be hired enforcers and thugs

So...what are they today?


In practice or in theory?

In theory police are hired with taxpayer money and answer to elected officials. In practice this motivation and accountability may succeed or break down with varying degrees of frequency and consequence.

In theory and in practice private police work for nothing and no-one but their employer and answer to him alone. In libertarian theory any employee is free to come and go as he pleases thus any one of them could work for the highest bidder at any particular moment and would be entirely in keeping with the theory.

What would happen if two private police forces were in conflict? "The quarrel is between our masters and us their men."

However, I too fail to see how a private police force would not abuse their powers.

I'm not a libertarian theorist or even a Mises-style libertarian at all, but one example might be private citizens with concealed carry permits. They're not exactly private police but they can and do prevent crime against themselves, without any systemic abuse of their right to carry firearms.


Ah. In libertarian terms what exactly is the distinction between an armed private citizen and an armed private police force?

Blogger BoysMom February 13, 2013 1:40 PM  

Someone asked about 4G--We're not in that part of the sticks (thank goodness) but where we are, we're in a cell shadow, as are the neighbors one house down. Up the road, across the road, two houses down, all have great service. We're in a 3G area, I think . . . but we're also in a much more rural area.
Two things of interest--a family member also following the story tells me he saw a report that Dorner's own truck, which was burned, had a broken axle, and also that the LAPD claims to have found Dorner's driver's license intact in the burned cabin. This latter claim is causing a heck-of-a-lot of skepticism here. We had a significant wild fire event in our neighborhood last summer. What little bits of possessions were found in the basements of the burned out structures were things like deformed rings, heat-damaged gun safes, etc. Nothing so easily destroyed as a driver's license.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 13, 2013 1:51 PM  

Jartstar,

Try searching Eric Raymond's blog: http://esr.ibiblio.org/

He's technically an anarchist (I think he's also an anarchocapitalist), but he's tackled this question at least since I started reading there (three months ago).

His tagline is "Sex, software, politics, and firearms. Life's simple pleasures…"

Anonymous JartStar February 13, 2013 1:53 PM  

Whether the police are public or private they'd exhibit the same level of thuggery, and the people who control them could be just as evil. There's no evidence police suddenly become better citizens when they are privately hired.

So would Haliburton police be better or worse than the LAPD to deal with? Would it be better to deal with police who are employed by Fortune 100 company who only cares about next quarters earnings or police who are run by a corrupt local government?

Take a look at the history of the Pinkertons and you will see how private police can be just as abusive and dangerous as public.

Anonymous Imatiger February 13, 2013 1:56 PM  

So, to prevent abuses, we need some sort of government regulation of police. Whether or not they are private or public.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 13, 2013 2:02 PM  

Here's a good starter thread: Open source warfare != open source software

He puts more faith in the common sense of actuaries than I'm comfortable putting in any group of two or more people.

Anonymous Jake February 13, 2013 2:05 PM  

Jart,

The police in any case behave according to the wishes of those who pay them. How can you think a security officer hired by your neighborhood, employer, etc. is going to be just as much a thug as the officer who gets his pay from the gov.

At the very least, a thug privately hired is easily fired, or avoided, or boycotted. Not as easy to handle a government-payed thug.

Nor have you done anything to say why it'd be WORSE to have a private police officer... so at the very least, it's one less tax burden.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 13, 2013 2:05 PM  

Whether the police are public or private they'd exhibit the same level of thuggery, and the people who control them could be just as evil.

Easy problem to solve: Compulsive, random selection like ancient Greek politicians and the Israeli military.

Give me a hard one.

Anonymous Noah B. February 13, 2013 2:12 PM  

"In libertarian terms what exactly is the distinction between an armed private citizen and an armed private police force?"

The difference should be only that police have a contractual duty to fulfill tasks assigned by their employer (such as patrolling an area), but police should not have any rights or privileges that other citizens do not. In other words, it should be exactly like any other job.

Anonymous WaterBoy February 13, 2013 2:16 PM  

Aeoli Pera: "Easy problem to solve: Compulsive, random selection like ancient Greek politicians and the Israeli military."

Not as easy as that from a libertarian perspective, which advocates against compulsory service.

Anonymous cheddarman February 13, 2013 2:22 PM  

If I were Dorner, I would have lost weight, hid out in the city, darkened my skin, grew dread-locks or had hair extensions put in, talked in a Jamaican accent, and worked a job for cover...

if he was in an all black neighborhood, he would blend in like everyone else

Anonymous civilServant February 13, 2013 2:32 PM  

... but police should not have any rights or privileges that other citizens do not.

Are they assigned tasks that other citizens are not? Will these tasks require authority not held by other citizens? If police authority is identical to that of a baker or houesewife then what exactly are "police?"

Easy problem to solve: Compulsive, random selection like ancient Greek politicians and the Israeli military.

Not as easy as that from a libertarian perspective, which advocates against compulsory service.


Draftees are an unpleasant administrative and operational problem as well.

Anonymous Alexander February 13, 2013 2:36 PM  

Bah, of course it's impossible when you try and substitute 'police' for 'libertarian police' because the very idea is a paradox.

Instead, look at what functions the police have, and divvy it up to the populace.

Personal protection? Every citizen has right-to-carry. Done.

Investigate crimes after-the-fact? Let communities create/hire their own force with very specific powers in this regard. The ability to track down dangerous elements in your neighborhood is presumably a good people want (and if they don't then fine). But let them get on with this and only this particular element of police work. A guy responsible for tracking down murder suspects doesn't need to be fleecing people with speeding tickets on his downtime.

I'm sure civilservant will tell me why these ideas are unfeasible and 'just as bad', but that's beside the point - it's ideas I've thrown out in two seconds of thought. I'm happy to be convinced of a better solution. The point of the exercise is to break frame and not to replace the police as the unit currently exists, but to define the specific functions the police serve that people approve of on the local level and then go about dividing those functions up in such a way that we don't have some giant enforcer effectively answerable to noone.

Anonymous JartStar February 13, 2013 2:40 PM  

but police should not have any rights or privileges that other citizens do not.

If a policeman (public or private) arrests a suspect and it later turns out to be the wrong person should the police be charged with kidnapping?

Blogger IM2L844 February 13, 2013 2:42 PM  

I think he just wasn't as clever as he believed himself to be. He clearly had the tools and the time to implement a much better plan - maybe even enlist the help of some inner-city criminals/gangs he probably knew that hated the police department as much as he did. He did the same thing that most liberals and many women do. He let his emotions dictate his reasoning and that's never a solid foundation for good decision making. He screwed up and paid the piper.

Anonymous Dan in Tx February 13, 2013 2:42 PM  

CS:" ... but police should not have any rights or privileges that other citizens do not.

Are they assigned tasks that other citizens are not? Will these tasks require authority not held by other citizens? If police authority is identical to that of a baker or houesewife then what exactly are "police?"

I call bait and switch here. Rights and privileges does not = authority. To clarify: if I private citizen fearing for his own safety recklessly showers a pickup truck with two women in it he goes to prison, if police do the same exact thing then THEY go to prison, not paid vacation while a supposed "investigation" clears them. The policeman may have the authority to put a burglar in jail but he does not have any more or less right to use his firearm than said baker or housewife.

Anonymous Dan in Tx (me spell good) February 13, 2013 2:44 PM  

Damn it, above supposed to read shower a pickup with two women in it with gunfire. Too bad I can't edit but then again, not like ya'll thought I meant he was spraying them off with a garden hose.

Anonymous JartStar February 13, 2013 2:45 PM  

A guy responsible for tracking down murder suspects doesn't need to be fleecing people with speeding tickets on his downtime.

Once again see the Pinkerton Detective Agency. This is exactly what they did and grew into a monster.

dividing those functions up in such a way that we don't have some giant enforcer effectively answerable to noone.

"noone" might be a better choice compared to what we have now, which is they only answer to the state if the state is mad at them like Dorner. Otherwise they state gives them a pass.

Think of the worst banks and corporations in America today and how they are in bed with politicians, then put them in charge of the police for large portions of the country. When talking about this issue we can't ignore the reality of our "free market" here in the US and who would actually control most of the police.





Anonymous Mike M. February 13, 2013 2:57 PM  

I think the pure libertarian police force won't work in the real world.

That being said, I think the big reform is to put law enforcement under EXACTLY the same weapons restrictions as the general public. And quite possibly to not issue firearms at all...you buy your own gun as a private citizen.

Anonymous daddynichol February 13, 2013 3:00 PM  

I'm curious to know how private forces such as Black Water stacked up against Army regulars when it came to security protection?

Anonymous WaterBoy February 13, 2013 3:00 PM  

JartStar: "Once again see the Pinkerton Detective Agency. This is exactly what they did and grew into a monster."

The problem at the heart of it all, of course, is Man's nature. Whether private or public, personal interest or outright greed will all too often override any other compelling interest.

This is why we need robot cops. Cue R. Daneel Olivaw.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 13, 2013 3:01 PM  

Not as easy as that from a libertarian perspective, which advocates against compulsory service.

Top-down philosophy is a misapplication of top-down design. The way to learn about the world is from the bottom up. If your principle doesn't work out in nitty-gritty reality, it's the principle that must change.

Consider the analogous approach to martial arts design.

Anonymous Lysander Spooner February 13, 2013 3:02 PM  

@
Bruce Lewis February 13, 2013 12:45 PM

"Burn that fucker down!"

"Burners deployed. We have a fire."

- LAPD scanner audio

Wacoed, just as I told you all he would be."


I see more dead PoPo's after this, many of them on Dorner's list. I would not doubt some thugs grab the torch and keep Dorner's manifesto a living/breathing docudrama. IMO Dorner was nuttier than a Squirrel turd, but NWA was correct too. In this case torching Dorner was wrong, Dorner was wrong, there is alot wrong, and not much right.



Anonymous Dan in Tx February 13, 2013 3:13 PM  

The problem is like in so many other aspects of our modern society: bigger does not equal better, whether we're taking about banks or government or police forces. A band of rogue cops who patrol a certain neighborhood is a problem but it can be dealt with. An entire LAPD that is looked upon as utterly corrupt and abusive, much more difficult to deal with. I think a more realistic approach rather than an all privately owned police force is perhaps to think along the lines of breaking up the huge departments (like we should do with the big banks). In other words, instead of one huge LAPD, you would have a large number of smaller PD's, independent of one another accountable to the citizens of their area. We're not going to find a perfect answer to any of this but I think we can all agree that we would be hard pressed to do worse than what we have now.

Anonymous WaterBoy February 13, 2013 3:14 PM  

Aeoli Pera: "If your principle doesn't work out in nitty-gritty reality, it's the principle that must change."

Agree, but that wasn't the original point. The original question from civilServant was:

"One often hears libertarians propose private security forces - forces that are privately paid and privately owned. Would such forces operate differently from this?"

Once you introduce compulsory service, even if it's in a private police force, it's no longer a libertarian perspective.

And if employment was strictly volunary, a private police force would largely attract the same kinds of people who are currently employed by the public sector -- which I think was JartStar's main point.

Anonymous WaterBoy February 13, 2013 3:17 PM  

Er, volunary = voluntary. Typing fail.

Anonymous Daniel February 13, 2013 3:42 PM  

JartStar, Pinkerton was a government contractor, and also a monopoly. Private police force is not equal to the historic Pinkerton Agency (which is now wholly a government contractor).

Transactionally, they were hired by the state to do what the state could not afford to do itself. Totally different than a private police force. They were practically a monopolized, privatized army with a cozy relationship with the State.

Anonymous kh123 February 13, 2013 3:55 PM  

Video of the shootout.

Anonymous Noah B. February 13, 2013 3:55 PM  

"Are they assigned tasks that other citizens are not?"

They would be assigned tasks that other citizens could theoretically do, but typically choose not to. It wouldn't be a lot different than collecting garbage. In most places, you have every right to collect your neighbors' garbage and haul it to a landfill. But since no one pays you to do it, you don't.

"Will these tasks require authority not held by other citizens?"

No.

Blogger James Dixon February 13, 2013 4:09 PM  

> This is why we need robot cops. Cue R. Daneel Olivaw.

Gort, klaatu barada nikto. :)

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 13, 2013 4:17 PM  

Waterboy,

Okay, I wasn't aware of that context. I was obviously referring to a public police force, not a private one.

For the record, I oppose the creation of private, domestic police forces. I support private, auxiliary mercenary forces for wars and national defense.

Anonymous Porky February 13, 2013 4:20 PM  

'Luckily, we found his Drivers License in the smoldering ruins of the cabin which burnt to the ground.'

ROFL!

Anonymous Loser of Credibility February 13, 2013 4:23 PM  

If I had a son he'd look like Droner.

**edit**

scoobius dubious wins the stuffed animal

Anonymous Daniel February 13, 2013 4:23 PM  

I oppose the creation of private, domestic police forces.

On conservative grounds, liberal grounds, libertarian grounds or other? Do you believe that the mall does not have the right to employ security officers?

Anonymous Jake February 13, 2013 4:40 PM  

I keep seeing this unstated assumption that Government employees (such as police) are more easily held accountable to the public, people they've wronged, etc. than private employees (such as a theoretical private police/security force).

That seems like a really bad assumption.

Anonymous Noah B. February 13, 2013 4:44 PM  

In other news, LL Cool J is missing.

Anonymous Porky February 13, 2013 5:17 PM  

Isn't intentionally starting a house fire arson?

Anonymous civilServant February 13, 2013 5:21 PM  

When talking about this issue we can't ignore the reality of our "free market" here in the US and who would actually control most of the police.

If I may gingerly offer an opinion. It is not that libertarians ignore this reality. It is that they are blind to it.

A guy responsible for tracking down murder suspects doesn't need to be fleecing people with speeding tickets on his downtime.

So much of libertarianism boils down to drugs and speeding tickets.

Anonymous Rally February 13, 2013 5:25 PM  

Going to hide out in Big Bear didn't work out too well. Why did he do it? My guess is that going to the mountains seemed like a good idea when he watched Rambo do it. The reality didn't turn out quite like the movie.

Anonymous Noah B. February 13, 2013 5:27 PM  

It is arson, and I'm pretty sure there is no defense to prosecution under the law for committing arson. I'm also pretty sure that the judicial system's commitment to equality under the law in this nation has all but vanished, since they're not even bothering to deny that the fire was intentionally set. The LAPD no longer has even the pretense of being a law enforcement agency. They're hired thugs, nothing more.

Anonymous Noah B. February 13, 2013 5:30 PM  

"So much of libertarianism boils down to drugs and speeding tickets."

There's far more to it than that, but those are some of the easiest issues to address and that affect the most people, which is why you hear libertarians mention them often.

But there are plenty of other issues if you'd like a list.

Anonymous JartStar February 13, 2013 5:40 PM  

They were practically a monopolized, privatized army with a cozy relationship with the State.

See my above comments about the bank. I'm sure a private police company would grow to the point that it was "too big to fail" given the power it would yield.

I think the only defense against police both private and public is an armed populace and constant vigilance against abuse. Americans have succeeded in the former and failed at the later, but of the two, the former is more important.

Anonymous Mystery Man February 13, 2013 5:51 PM  

I am curious: How would a private security force deal with an auto thief? Shoot on sight? Deliver him to the wronged car owner and turn their backs? Plunder his house until they're satisfied that they've collected enough loot--er, restitution to cover what he stole?

Or possibly just deliver him to the government's courts?

Anonymous Jake February 13, 2013 5:52 PM  

When talking about this issue we can't ignore the reality of our "free market" here in the US and who would actually control most of the police.

If I may gingerly offer an opinion. It is not that libertarians ignore this reality. It is that they are blind to it.


Not blind, it's just not applicable. You're taking our current system twisted and corrupted and distorted by statist policies and saying "How could we ever get the government out of X given these conditions?" as if the current conditions existed, or could exist, independent of the government that creates them. The sentence you quoted even acknowledges this: "...with a cozy relationship with the state" libertarians say "no cozy relationship with the state, problem solved."

Additionally, monopoly is a creation of the state.. Until the word monopoly was corrupted (only about century ago) the word literally meant "a government grant of exclusive right to deal in a certain product(s)". Today monopolies are still the creation of government, they're just more clever in disguising the mechanisms by which it works. The libertarian does not have to explain "what do we do about monopolies"... the proper answer is "what monopolies? As a defender of our statist government they are YOUR problem not ours".

Anonymous WaterBoy February 13, 2013 5:53 PM  

civilServant: "So much of libertarianism boils down to drugs and speeding tickets."

Somebody has obviously not been paying attention. On this blog alone, such infringements on liberty and property as gun control, drone surveillance, USA PATRIOT ACT, illicit property confiscation, excessive use of force and other illicit actions by police, and wealth redistribution have all been covered, among many, many others.

Anonymous Anonymous February 13, 2013 6:03 PM  

"Pussies like Dorner always commit suicide. Or as I call it, "doing society a favor..."

Nowadays, suicide is pretty much required for a guy like Dorner, once he is cornered.

If you try to go out shooting there is a significant chance that you might end up wounded and too weak to kill yourself.

Then you get to enjoy being abused in prison for the rest of your life, possibly while partially paralyzed.

This isn't Norway.

Anonymous Daniel February 13, 2013 6:16 PM  

I am curious: How would a private security force deal with an auto thief? Shoot on sight? Deliver him to the wronged car owner and turn their backs? Plunder his house until they're satisfied that they've collected enough loot--er, restitution to cover what he stole?

Or possibly just deliver him to the government's courts?


The exact same way that they do today, all over the world, in examples too numerous to count.

What do you think public security forces do with an auto thief?

Take a report.
Add it to the database.
Give you a copy to give to your insurance.

The only difference is, with private security, if your car gets stolen, you pay for the costs involved in processing your claim. In public security, if your car gets stolen, I get to share your costs.

I drive a 2000 sedan with 350,000 miles. I believe the public cost of processing its theft would outweigh the costs of replacing it. Katzenjammer kids, though, I pity the thief who is such a loser that he aims for my property.

Anonymous Anonymous February 13, 2013 6:28 PM  

While the call to "fire the burners" surprised me, or at least surprised me that we got it on tape, what I find more surprising is the fact that the police stock and carry incendiary ordinance in the first place.

Do the police* pay for the house they burned down?

If this is standard police policy to deal with an active shooter, maybe it is a good thing cops hide in school parking lots and do nothing during a school shooting.

i.e. The L.A. taxpayers?

Anonymous David of One February 13, 2013 7:34 PM  

I am reminded of a supposed quote that I heard about a good many years ago that was attributed a General (name unknown) ... the quote went somehting like:

"The purpose of the Military is to vaporize and the purpose of the Police is to nogotiate."

Maybe the quote was vice versa, no matter ...

The problem is I made an effort to locate the quote and it's author. I couldn't find it.

Does anyone remember this and perhaps the author?

Anonymous Mystery Man February 13, 2013 7:43 PM  

I see, Daniel. So the libertarian's notion of an ideal response to a violation of property rights is...stick it to the insurance company, and let the thief go free.

Well, I'm sold.

Anonymous David of One February 13, 2013 8:19 PM  

"Your Honor and Members of the Jury, The State demands a guilty verdict against the plaintiff for the wonton killing and murder of the 3 armed carjackers. These were just innocent people who just wanted and socially deserved economical 12 year old transportation like any other comrade. Regardless of the brutal beating of the plantiff and his husband, the unlawful possession and use of an assault Taser and subsequent murder of the 3 slain thieves with a BicPen. Members of the Jury, you must find the plaintiff guilty of first degree murder as it is incontrovertible that the plaintiff had insurance. The Law and Social Justice demand it!"

Anonymous zen0 February 13, 2013 8:38 PM  

civilServant February 13, 2013 2:32 PM

... but police should not have any rights or privileges that other citizens do not.

Are they assigned tasks that other citizens are not? Will these tasks require authority not held by other citizens? If police authority is identical to that of a baker or houesewife then what exactly are "police?"


Don't be such a butthead. Not only should police not have extra rights or privileges, they often have LESS. Its part of the job.

Watch The Wire or something. I suppose you think all civil servants should have extra rights and privileges?
Why would I not be surprised?

Butthead.

Anonymous Razoraid February 13, 2013 8:39 PM  

@Daniel

The "Militarization" of the Anti-Drug War Effort.

Paragraph: Criticisms of "Militarization"


Soldiers are trained to "vaporize, not Militarize," says Lawrence Korb, Assistant Secretary of Defense under President Reagan. Korb, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institute, opposes putting troops on the border because soldiers are not trained to police in an environment of constitutional liberties.

Anonymous Mystery Man February 13, 2013 8:54 PM  

The State demands a guilty verdict against the plaintiff for the wonton killing and murder of the 3 armed carjackers.

Anyone who can kill three people with Chinese takeout deserves a not-guilty verdict.

Anonymous Razoraid February 13, 2013 8:56 PM  

@David of One

Aw crap. Sorry.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 13, 2013 8:58 PM  

On conservative grounds, liberal grounds, libertarian grounds or other?

Good question. Perhaps liberal grounds, although I'm only familiar with Mises. Police exist to allow honest people to be productive and also to manage the level of predation within the society. Parts of this can and should be privatized (detective work is a great example). But first response and execution of the law, foundational police work, cannot be subject to the dictates of the market, free or otherwise.

From a moral perspective, it is easy to see that rich men would have the power to pervert justice. The bottom line is the blessing and curse of private business.

If we ignore morality, the utilitarian argument is that when rich men avoid justice and poor men cannot get justice the market will be unable to prefer economical men.

And this is all aside from the biblical warnings for judges not to favor the rich, which I probably should have led with.

Do you believe that the mall does not have the right to employ security officers?

You know I'm not an idiot, Daniel. Private security is not the same as police work by a long shot (philosophically or practically).

Anonymous Anonymous February 13, 2013 9:08 PM  

Greencarman here...

Shut up, Noah B.

"The LAPD no longer has even the pretense of being a law enforcement agency. They're hired thugs, nothing more."

In any and every organization, government agency, societal group, etc., there are individuals who do not follow the expected norms required of that entity. So the LAPD, like any other police force, have their low brows, but it does mean all or most of its members are degenerates. In the future, just stop making such wild generalizations, lest you appear to be a knobshine.


Shut up, Jake.

"Additionally, monopoly is a creation of the state."

Monopolies can be established by a government, form naturally, or form by integration. Don't be intellectually lazy.

Now, to those who support this notion of having private security firms "to serve and protect" citizens as a replacement to a community controlled police force, quit sniffing glue. It may be an option for smaller areas, but not large cities or major metropolitan areas, where citizens have more power to monitor the activities of local law enforcement.

Anonymous David of One February 13, 2013 9:33 PM  

@Razoraid

This may have been the actual basis of what I heard nearly 20 years ago or so.

As I said, the quote had been attributed to a general but I couldn't even find that ...

What you found at least presents some foundation to the quote.

The supposed quote was a comparison between what the military's mission is and what the civilian "police" are supposed to be engaged in ...

It would seem that vaporization is a much closer comparison or at least well-charred.

@Mystery Man

Normally such might be the case, but satire focuses on "social justice" combined with "insurance". It isn't much of a leap if one considers all the possibilities "Justice" Robberts provided to wannabe tyrannical despots.

Anonymous Daniel February 13, 2013 9:44 PM  

You know I'm not an idiot, Daniel. Private security is not the same as police work by a long shot.

It was a serious question, no offense intended. As for myself, I do not know what the fundamental or practical difference is between mall security and a police force, except for the broader diversity of calls that the police receive, and that mall security currently has free access to taxpayer funded police back-up.

What is the purpose of the police? How is this put into practice? How many crimes are stopped by police? How many are just mopped up? How many innocents are in some way abused? How many thoughtless laws imprison men unjustly?

These are important questions.

Should police officers be disallowed from moonlighting as private security? Does this not also put the private corruption pressure on the taxpayer funded system?

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 13, 2013 9:44 PM  

In any and every organization, government agency, societal group, etc., there are individuals who do not follow the expected norms required of that entity. So the LAPD, like any other police force, have their low brows, but it does mean all or most of its members are degenerates. In the future, just stop making such wild generalizations, lest you appear to be a knobshine.

Let reason be silent when experience gainsay it.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 13, 2013 9:50 PM  

Daniel,

I see, you're struggling with some fundamental analysis problems. I didn't finish this blog post, but I think it will jump start your thinking process.

Anonymous Jack Amok February 13, 2013 9:52 PM  

Greencarman here...

If you're too dense to follow simple instructions on posting as "Gerencarman" instead of "Anonymous", why do you think anyone will pay attention to your comments?

Choose "Comment as: Name/URL" instead of Anonymous. You don't even have to type in a URL.

Anonymous zen0 February 13, 2013 9:53 PM  

Aeoli Pera said:

And this is all aside from the biblical warnings for judges not to favor the rich, which I probably should have led with.

Just a little detail. Not just the rich , but the poor as well.




Leviticus 19:15

New King James Version (NKJV)

15 ‘You shall do no injustice in judgment. You shall not be partial to the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty. In righteousness you shall judge your neighbor.

Anonymous Mystery Man February 13, 2013 10:01 PM  

Judaizer.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 13, 2013 10:01 PM  

Small, important detail.

Anonymous Mystery Man February 13, 2013 10:04 PM  

Small, important detail.

My apologies for not quoting to which I was responding.

Anonymous The other skeptic February 13, 2013 10:13 PM  

Am I hearing that he is not dead? That on the third day he rose from the dead?

Anonymous zen0 February 13, 2013 10:25 PM  

Mystery Man said:

My apologies for not quoting to which I was responding.

At least you are polite for an ignorant person. If you shut yourself off from exploration of the relation between the Gospel and the Tanach, you will shut yourself off from the sublime workings of God's plan.

The milk is for babes, the meat in due season shall be given to those who can grow enough to seek it.

Anonymous David of One February 13, 2013 10:37 PM  

OT - Sometimes you never know what you'll find until you search ...


Pussification

Blogger "1951" February 13, 2013 10:48 PM  

CS gas isn't classed as incendiary ordnance. It just happens to be highly flammable when concentrated in an enclosed space. One "spark from ricochet" is all it takes to fire up a "compound" like a barbecue.

Convenient stuff. It lets you wipe out your enemies without due process, yet leaves you looking as pure as the driven snow. "We were attempting to subdue the perpetrator by non-lethal means, when tragically..."

Anonymous RC February 13, 2013 11:09 PM  

Just don't hurt THEIR dogs.

ST. PAUL, Minn. — Authorities shot and killed a Missouri man after he allegedly fatally stabbed a St. Paul police dog.
Members of the North Star Fugitive Task Force were looking for the suspect on a first-degree criminal sexual conduct warrant. Members of the task force had gone to a St. Paul home to arrest him Tuesday afternoon when they found him armed with a knife in the basement.
Police say the suspect fatally stabbed police dog Kody. Officers then fatally shot the suspect. No one else was hurt.
The suspect's name was not immediately released.
The task force includes St. Paul police, U.S. Marshal Service deputy marshals and Ramsey County sheriff's deputies.
Kody was 9 years old and had been with the department for seven years. Names of the officers were not released.

Blogger Galt-in-Da-Box February 14, 2013 12:17 AM  

Dorner had police training & background, but was by no means a genius - the rabbit family (single mother) he came from would have a detrimental effect on his reasoning ability, and while hiding right under their nose was a good starting tactic, not having a secondary hidey-hole (as VD described & a route there that would allow him to evade detection, he was fairly screwed.
If he's dead, the issues he raised die with him.
If he's alive & this is all elaborate cover, we'll find out in the weeks to come.

Anonymous Razoraid February 14, 2013 12:48 AM  

@David of One

Yeah I admit that was kind of lame without a citation or a link. I failed also to stop myself from butchering up the actual quote. It should read "soldiers are trained to vaporize, not mirandize." In this context I guess you could say to mirandize is to negotiate. Interesting topic, tho.

Anonymous kh123 February 14, 2013 1:51 AM  

"Greencarman here..."

Name/URL option. It's not difficult. Really.

Anonymous The other skeptic February 14, 2013 9:05 AM  

I'm a little surprised Dorner tried to go to the wilderness when he could have simply stocked a hiding place somewhere in the city, then emerged only at night to hunt police.

Think of Dorner as a trial run.

Anonymous Noah B. February 14, 2013 9:19 AM  

"So the LAPD, like any other police force, have their low brows, but it does mean all or most of its members are degenerates. In the future, just stop making such wild generalizations, lest you appear to be a knobshine."

When cops don't report things like murder and arson to help their coworkers cover up, they become accomplices under the law, you moron. It is not an over-generalization to say that they are all thugs.

Anonymous David of One February 14, 2013 9:50 AM  

@Razoraid

Considering the quote you've provided ... I think the original was mirandize and not negotiate. Thanks.

Anonymous civilServant February 14, 2013 1:02 PM  

When talking about this issue we can't ignore the reality of our "free market" here in the US and who would actually control most of the police.

If I may gingerly offer an opinion. It is not that libertarians ignore this reality. It is that they are blind to it.

Not blind, it's just not applicable. You're taking our current system twisted and corrupted and distorted by statist policies and saying "How could we ever get the government out of X given these conditions?" as if the current conditions existed, or could exist, independent of the government that creates them. The sentence you quoted even acknowledges this: "...with a cozy relationship with the state" libertarians say "no cozy relationship with the state, problem solved."


This illustrates my point.

Anonymous Noah B. February 14, 2013 1:40 PM  

If police had no greater powers in any respect than a citizen, it wouldn't matter who controlled the police, civil.

Anonymous Razoraid February 14, 2013 3:08 PM  

@David of One

Your welcome.

Anonymous Anonymous February 14, 2013 11:28 PM  

Greencarman here...

Shut up, Noah B.

"When cops don't report things like murder and arson to help their coworkers cover up, they become accomplices under the law, you moron. It is not an over-generalization to say that they are all thugs."

It is mere speculation that the cops set the cabin ablaze. What ever happened to that old American adage, "innocent until proven guilty"? Until there is hard core evidence, I'm going to withhold judgement. And if there is definitive proof that the cops purposely incinerated Dorner,
then I will also join you in your outrage.

Besides, who cares about a dead Negro, right? At least, that's the sentiments of many of the posters here. Oh, sure, they may not come outright and say it, but we all know differently.

Dorner was intent on inflicting as much damage and as many casualties as possible on cops and their families without any god damn remorse. He was a murderer, and a danger to society while at-large. Not surprisingly, however, that some people view Dorner as some anti-hero because of the degradation of relations between citizens and police.

Anonymous Anonymous February 15, 2013 7:29 AM  

At least, that's the sentiments of many of the posters here. Oh, sure, they may not come outright and say it, but we all know differently.gcm

No we don't, asshole.

blackcarman

Anonymous Noah B. February 15, 2013 6:50 PM  

@Greencarman

Are you a pig or does the thought of sucking their nuts just give you a thrill?

Anonymous Noah B. February 15, 2013 7:01 PM  

"Dorner was intent on inflicting as much damage and as many casualties as possible on cops and their families without any god damn remorse."

So?

"He was a murderer, and a danger to society while at-large."

That statement is contrary to fact. Dorner didn't shoot anyone he considered an innocent bystander, while the LAPD did. Clearly the LAPD was, and still is, the greater danger.

Anonymous Anonymous February 18, 2013 9:48 PM  

Greencarman here...

Thanks, Noah B., for coming to the defense of a murderer of whites.

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