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Friday, February 08, 2013

Of courage and cowardice

The police appear to have a very self-serving definition of "cowardice":
The fired LAPD officer suspected of terrorizing Southern California in a bloody rampage opened fire on two Riverside police officers with a rifle in a "cowardly ambush" early Thursday morning, Riverside police Chief Sergio Diaz told reporters at a morning news conference.  
Let me get this straight.  We're supposed to believe that a one-man war against the entire LAPD is cowardly, whereas those armed and armored SWAT teams that break in without warning and not infrequently shoot pets and unarmed people are courageous?  Christopher Dorner may be foolish.  He may be evil.  He may be in the wrong.  But the one thing he quite clearly is not is "cowardly".  What on Earth is such a stupid and obviously false declaration supposed to do, dissuade anyone tempted to follow Dorner's example?

These are indeed Orwellian times.  It's rather like reading Robin Hood and being expected to cheer for the Sheriff of Nottingham.  Here is a hint for the police: if you're wearing black armor, killing innocent animals, lying about your actions, and on top of it all, you outnumber the other guy several thousand to one, you're the bad guy.

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420 Comments:

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Anonymous Daniel February 08, 2013 1:01 PM  

"Courage." - Dan Rather

Anonymous Daniel February 08, 2013 1:04 PM  

Outlaw Josey Wales wasn't an outlaw, either. If Dorner's belly is yellow, after all, he'll literally be a one-man race war.

Anonymous the bandit February 08, 2013 1:06 PM  

Cowardly is putting more than a couple dozen bullets into the back of a truck and injuring two unarmed newspaper delivery ladies. Because it was blue, and Dorner's truck was blue -- though not even the same make and model.

Anonymous Leatherwing February 08, 2013 1:07 PM  

I suppose they were being courageous when they opened fire on the Blue Toyota with two Asian ladies inside because it so closely resembled his Grey Nissan with a large black man inside.

Anonymous Incurvatus February 08, 2013 1:07 PM  

One man paralyzes thousands of police, sending them fleeing back to bunkered HQ, cowering in their homes, or shooting up newspaper delivery trucks which don't even match the A.P.B.
Hmmm. So statists, tell us again how your fomented civl war against tens of millions of riflemen (& >9mm pistoleros) will play itself out?

Anonymous Feh February 08, 2013 1:13 PM  

I really liked the way the Alabama cops had to mobilize the Sturmgewehr-toting Wehrmacht to deal with one 65 year old man. Two deputies with revolvers should have been sufficient.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/01/30/article-2270666-1740A793000005DC-939_634x346.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/01/30/article-2270666-1741CE55000005DC-460_634x642.jpg

Anonymous Porky February 08, 2013 1:16 PM  

The modern day Django. He's got a growing fan base cheering for him.

Blogger Double Minded Man February 08, 2013 1:17 PM  

Cowardly is the new evil. Can't say "evil" or "bad" so the worst thing they can call you is a coward. Projection maybe?

This has long bugged me too. So many of these high profile criminals get called cowards when their actions are anything but.

Anonymous RINO February 08, 2013 1:19 PM  

Sorry, a nutjob who supports Obama, the mainstream media, and gun control is not worthy of any praise.

Blogger Giraffe February 08, 2013 1:20 PM  

If Dorner hadn't went after family, he'd be a hero.

Anonymous Thales February 08, 2013 1:20 PM  

One man paralyzes thousands of police, sending them fleeing back to bunkered HQ, cowering in their homes, or shooting up newspaper delivery trucks which don't even match the A.P.B.
Hmmm. So statists, tell us again how your fomented civl war against tens of millions of riflemen (& >9mm pistoleros) will play itself out?


Indeed. As with the OWS riot theaters, where hundreds of police failed where a handful of rent-a-cops succeeded, this all has been most revealing.

Blogger tz February 08, 2013 1:22 PM  

If you were one of the cowards, and are now not among them, then it is not cowardly to use their own tactics against them. If Dorner was a coward, he would have disappeared. The bravery may be in the service of evil, but he takes the greater risk actually going after people with guns willing to do violence to him at a moments notice in the least risky way possible. He shot two? The second wasn't able to respond when he noticed the first? He also has not shot random civilians.

It was cowardly to shoot two unarmed newspaper delivery women. And the man in the second blue truck. It would have required courage to take the risk of approaching - maybe with gun drawn - but not shooting until you knew you were threatened.

Police no longer "put their lives at risk". They are the most risk-adverse members of society. You regularly read reports of some huge cop macing or tasing some 100 pound elderly woman for fussing or complaining too much. The police (The constables of old as opposed to what I call the "blue-coats") used to have avoiding harm to innocent citizens as their first priority. Now they don't care about shedding innocent blood - and will allow or shed as much to protect a single drop of their own.

Anonymous Josh February 08, 2013 1:23 PM  

But...the police have drones...and we're informed that they can pinpoint the location of any bad guy anywhere in the world so accurately that there would be no way someone could resist!

Sorry, the news stories about him being at large have to be fraudulent.

Blogger TontoBubbaGoldstein February 08, 2013 1:28 PM  

They haven't captured/killed that guy yet??!!

Thats why we need more drones, cameras, gun control,SWAT teams, alphabet agencys etc etc etc.

For our SAFETY!!
For our SECURITY!!!
FOR THE CHILDREN!!!!!
For Trayvon!!!

Now!! Hop to it!!

Anonymous GayJewGun-Grabber February 08, 2013 1:30 PM  

You just don't understand how the media works, my friend.

It all depends on who he is shooting.

http://ace.mu.nu/archives/337332.php

It's science and all that.

Blogger IM2L844 February 08, 2013 1:34 PM  

And we're supposed to believe that loosely organized, factional and relatively small guerrilla style armed rebellions in populated areas would be easily put down?

Anonymous Meh February 08, 2013 1:37 PM  

And we're supposed to believe that loosely organized, factional and relatively small guerrilla style armed rebellions in populated areas would be easily put down?

In the grand scheme of things, this guy has not been on the loose long, or done that much damage. He WILL be caught soon - or more likely, killed.

Blogger TontoBubbaGoldstein February 08, 2013 1:38 PM  

Shortly after 9-11, Bill Maher made the same point about the "cowardly" 9-11 hijackers. For once, he was correct. This guy and Atta and his boys have/had plenty of bad/evil qualities. Cowardice ain't one of them.

Anonymous Faust February 08, 2013 1:38 PM  

Dorner is a bad person.
A coward is a bad thing to be.
Ergo, Dorner is a coward.

The logic is impeccable.

Anonymous FreshStep February 08, 2013 1:42 PM  

"In the grand scheme of things, this guy has not been on the loose long, or done that much damage." - Meh

1 guy with 3 kills - so far. And a panic-stricken police force.
He ain't a Finn, but that's not a bad start...

Anonymous Zion's Paladin February 08, 2013 1:42 PM  

If they call that ambush "cowardly", one wonders what they think of our military when they dropped in on Osama bin Laden and simply shot him rather than try to capture him alive.

Since Dorner is still pursuing a one-man war against the LAPD, he quite clearly is not a coward. Crazy, perhaps, or evil, but certainly not a coward. And definitely not stupid either. He's proving Nate's argument quite handily about how one determined armed individual can make a great deal of trouble for a government force. Now imagine a thousand Dorners across the country doing the same thing. Can you say havoc?

Anonymous Tad February 08, 2013 1:43 PM  

@Vox Day

armed and armored SWAT teams that break in without warning and not infrequently shoot pets and unarmed people are courageous?

Not infrequently? How often does this happen? What number of times that an armored swat team shooting pets and unarmed people happen would make it not infrequent?

Anonymous Jack Amok February 08, 2013 1:43 PM  

How is it possible a red light camera hasn't stopped this guy yet? I thought those things were the ultimate in safety?

Do note that he was fired for (allegedly) lying during an internal investigation about the actions of a police officer accused of assaulting a citizen. If he'd lied during a court trial about the actions of a regular old citizen accused of a crime, how eager do you expect the LAPD would have been to fire him? I suspect they'd have done everything they could to keep him on the force.

When I was a little kid, I thought there were Good Guys and Bad Guys, and the Police were on the side of the Good Guys. Twenty-some-odd years ago, I realized there were three sides: Good Guys, Bad Guys, and Cops. They were their own side. Sometimes they helped out the Good Guys, sometimes they helped out the Bad Guys, most times they just helped out themselves.

It's only gotten worse since then.

Anonymous Nah February 08, 2013 1:47 PM  

Shortly after 9-11, Bill Maher made the same point about the "cowardly" 9-11 hijackers. For once, he was correct. This guy and Atta and his boys have/had plenty of bad/evil qualities. Cowardice ain't one of them.

Bullshit. It takes no guts at all to kill unarmed and totally unsuspecting civilians.

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother February 08, 2013 1:47 PM  

The latest MSN article reports that he mailed a copy of the manifesto to CNN's New York office, and the package included a coin with a bullet hole in it. The duct tape surrounding the coin had "IMOA" on it. MSN of course doesn't know what that means.

1 MOA, as in minute of angle.

The plot thickens.

Anonymous Officer Friendly February 08, 2013 1:51 PM  

We just want Mr. Dorner to turn himeslf in, so he can get the help he needs. We'd be happy to meet him at the nearest deserted location of his choosing.

Really.

Anonymous Jack Amok February 08, 2013 1:55 PM  

1 guy with 3 kills - so far. And a panic-stricken police force.

There is something on the order of 1 cop (federal, state and local) for every 380-400 citizens in the US.

There are at least 60 gun-owning households in the US for every cop.

Based on my time at the range, I'd estimate the average citizen gun owner is at least as good with his weapon as the average police officer.

If the police get involved in a war with the citizenry, it wouldn't go well for them.

Anonymous Joe Doakes February 08, 2013 1:55 PM  

If the largest police force in the world can't catch one guy, imagine what will happen when 100 million gun owners decide cops are a greater threat to their liberty than criminals. This is another reason the present gun control proposals are dangerous: they undermine the foundation of civil order by pitting ordinary decent Americans against their own police.

Being a cop in those times will be worse than being one in Mexico or in prison and after the cops are gone, we'll have only armed gangs to "protect" us from other gangs, which is the very reason government police forces were invented.

This cannot end well.

Anonymous Zion's Paladin February 08, 2013 1:55 PM  

In the grand scheme of things, this guy has not been on the loose long, or done that much damage. He WILL be caught soon - or more likely, killed.

He's done more than that. He's directly targeting the LAPD and I don't think they had any idea previously what it was like to be targeted like this.

They knew that they'd be shot at when they show up at a crime or a hostage situation, but that's to be expected. They knew that plenty of people, such as gangs or crooks hate them, but as they generally don't target cops without a reason or goal in mind, that doesn't bother them much.

But now someone is directly targeting the LAPD, and what's worse, he's targeting anyone wearing the uniform, not a specific individual or group. That means anyone wearing a cop uniform in LA now has a bulls eye painted on their back. And given the general mood of the public, especially since the cops have opened fire on innocent people because they thought it might be him instead of doing their actual jobs and making a positive threat or suspect ID before even drawing their weapons, they can't count on the same support from the public they might have gotten previously.

But the worst damage Dorner is doing is proving how a reasonably competent person can not only evade capture, but keep killing government forces. It's damaging, if not outright disproving the myth that government, and the forces that work for them, are some invincible juggernaut that can't be hurt or beaten. Not unlike what the colonials proved against the British at Lexington and Concord.

Blogger Tiny Tim February 08, 2013 1:55 PM  

He looks a whole lot like the DEA Agent who said "I the only one profeshnul nough to handle a gun like this one" ---- POWWWWWW.....

It is an amusing video if you haven't yet experienced the joy of watching it (youtube "DEA Agent shoots self").

Blogger Tiny Tim February 08, 2013 1:58 PM  

Takes me back to the manhunt for the white guys in the white van sniping all over the east coast after 911.

The police are the suicide squad. They will be used as a sacrifice to get the real war going.

They think they are the first line of defense. Hahahahahaa

They are cannon fodder, the imbecilic morons.....

Blogger Joshua_D February 08, 2013 2:03 PM  

Feh February 08, 2013 1:13 PM
I really liked the way the Alabama cops had to mobilize the Sturmgewehr-toting Wehrmacht to deal with one 65 year old man. Two deputies with revolvers should have been sufficient.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/01/30/article-2270666-1740A793000005DC-939_634x346.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/01/30/article-2270666-1741CE55000005DC-460_634x642.jpg


Can you link to the article?

Anonymous FreshStep February 08, 2013 2:03 PM  

"It is an amusing video if you haven't yet experienced the joy of watching it (youtube "DEA Agent shoots self")." - TT

The classics never die.

Anonymous Meh February 08, 2013 2:04 PM  

It's damaging, if not outright disproving the myth that government, and the forces that work for them, are some invincible juggernaut that can't be hurt or beaten.

He hasn't been on the loose for a whole week yet and he has defeated the government?

When he goes down in a hail of bullets in the next couple of days, will that disprove the myth that guerrilla warfare is effective?

Anonymous Jack Amok February 08, 2013 2:07 PM  

But now someone is directly targeting the LAPD, and what's worse, he's targeting anyone wearing the uniform, not a specific individual or group.

Oh, it's even more frightening than that. He started off by killing the daughter of a retired LAPD officer. That's a whole 'nuther level of fear and dread.

Anonymous dh February 08, 2013 2:08 PM  

Bullshit. It takes no guts at all to kill unarmed and totally unsuspecting civilians.

Really? It takes a certain amount of guts to go deep into enemy territory and execute a suicide mission.

Anonymous Alabama Hostage Story February 08, 2013 2:09 PM  

Can you link to the article?

http://tinyurl.com/byma5ec

Anonymous Whitefeather February 08, 2013 2:09 PM  

When he goes down in a hail of bullets in the next couple of days, will that disprove the myth that guerrilla warfare is effective? - Meh

Question beg much?

Anonymous Nah February 08, 2013 2:10 PM  

It takes a certain amount of guts to go deep into enemy territory and execute a suicide mission.

Not against people who are unarmed and have no idea you are coming.

Anonymous Cops Run Drugs February 08, 2013 2:12 PM  

We just want Mr. Dorner to turn himeslf in, so he can get the help he needs. We'd be happy to meet him at the nearest deserted location of his choosing. Really.

Nice

Anonymous Meh February 08, 2013 2:12 PM  

Question beg much?

Not understand rhetorical question much?

Anonymous Noah B. February 08, 2013 2:13 PM  

"What on Earth is such a stupid and obviously false declaration supposed to do, dissuade anyone tempted to follow Dorner's example?"

Destroy any minute remnants of credibility the LAPD may still have had with a few small children living in a remote mountainous village in Dagestan.

"But...the police have drones...and we're informed that they can pinpoint the location of any bad guy anywhere in the world so accurately that there would be no way someone could resist!"

An excellent point, Josh. These stories must not be true, or Dorner would have already been caught. Clearly he's been framed, possibly by a rival group within the LAPD seeking to assert its own dominance and use a false flag to destroy its opposition.

Anonymous David February 08, 2013 2:13 PM  

I would get into the same type of argument with a few idiots back in September/October 2011. They would call the 9/11 hijackers cowards, I would point out a coward by definition doesn't throw away his own life, idiot would ignore what I said and insist hijackers are cowards once again.

Anonymous Jack Amok February 08, 2013 2:14 PM  

Not understand rhetorical question much?

Oh goody, another Rhetorical Rabbit!

Anonymous Clay February 08, 2013 2:15 PM  

Seems like this guy has been planning this for a while. Maybe he has a stash of IED's hidden away out in the hills.

Anonymous Whitefeather February 08, 2013 2:17 PM  

Question beg much?

Not understand rhetorical question much? - Meh

I don't think you understand.
Let me rephrase:

Where has "the myth that guerrilla warfare is effective?" been established?

Blogger ray February 08, 2013 2:17 PM  

largely in exchange for money, LE in the u.s. allowed itself to be tools of oppressive policies and "laws" and, after 30 years of serving an increasingly totalitarian Big Sister State, now finds itself servants in the castle of the Wicked Witch of the West, who they Serve and Protect

it's comfy in the castle, the money is good and the work is usually easy, there are teevees at all the jail guard-stations

however . . . one is regularly required to prey on one's own brothers . . . and to fill the Mancages by the millions, with guys who have no business being there, except to Keep the Sistem grinding along, making money and manufacturing "perps"

growing up in a small town in the Fifties, local cops were non-interventionist (ESPECIALLY in "domestic disputes") and you had to do something of immediate and severe danger to be put in a cage (like, knock over the liquor store with your .45)

otherwise, it was live/let live -- the departments were quite small, and the feds almost never interfered in local jurisdictions

now LE is an out-of-control behemoth matching the out-of-control Fempire that ever-demands more punishments, more laws, more cages (for males that is) and more Homeland Security from an endless cadre of sheriffs, state cops, FBI, NSA, ATF, SWAT, FEMA, on and on

in 15 years the u.s. male population will consist of:

1) LE agents

2) criminals


and that is exactly how the Fempire wants it, too, because a lot of Somebodies are living nice comfy lives with new SUVs and houses, while the Boys are set to destroying one-another

know where the office furniture and equipment comes from for government workplaces? the very workplaces that have been commandeered by women over the past three decades, via the "law"?

their equipment is made by male prison labor, forced labor, at a buck, buck-fifty a day

that's a lot cheaper than having to hire a (shudder) male to work a non-prison job, eh?

don't have to worry about men being fathers of families either! perfect! everyone knows that men are a bad influence on boys, we're told every day here

the empowered, independent Office Girls LOVE their shiny new furniture too, they use it to hire more LE and process more "criminals"

this is the New Economy

Anonymous civilServant February 08, 2013 2:20 PM  

So statists, tell us again how your fomented civl war against tens of millions of riflemen (& >9mm pistoleros) will play itself out?

It would seem I am a statist here. So. It will play itself out this way.

One day you find that you are locked out of your bank account. None of your debit cards operate. None of your credit cards function. You cannot pay your mortgage. You cannot buy gasoline. You cannot buy food. You cannot pay your water bill. You receive a form letter in the mail saying, “Our records indicate that you are in possession of certain illegal firearms. Your finances have been locked until this situation is resolved. Please turn them in to your nearest sheriff's office. Your finances may be restored after your case is reviewed and a determination made.”

Anonymous Ten41 February 08, 2013 2:23 PM  

@Tad

Not infrequently? How often does this happen? What number of times that an armored swat team shooting pets and unarmed people happen would make it not infrequent?

Here is a small list compiled by the Cato Institute:
Botched Paramilitary Police Raids.

And while I only reply for myself, I will say this; if it was me and/or my family involved, then once would be too frequent.

Anonymous mistaben February 08, 2013 2:23 PM  

From the LA Times: A woman at a candlelight vigil for the Riverside officer killed on Dorner: "How can one officer do that to another officer? Whether you're on the force or not, you don't do that."

Dorner doesn't see officers as his group anymore, not since he was cast out of the warren. Rabbiting has consequences.

Blogger James Dixon February 08, 2013 2:24 PM  

> How often does this happen?

Still struggling to master Google, I see.

Anonymous bloody barbarian February 08, 2013 2:24 PM  

Tad sez: "Not infrequently? How often does this happen? What number of times that an armored swat team shooting pets and unarmed people happen would make it not infrequent?"

It happens all the damned time. The MSM just doesn't want to upset Massa Gov't by mentioning that inconvenient fact.

A handy Botched Raid Map from CATO

Radley Balko's Raid of the Day

And since he seems to be MIA at the moment, I'll say it for him: Shut Up, Tad.

Blogger Nate February 08, 2013 2:26 PM  

"'Bullshit. It takes no guts at all to kill unarmed and totally unsuspecting civilians."

You likely have never pointed a loaded weapon at anyone.

Blogger Nate February 08, 2013 2:28 PM  

"One day you find that you are locked out of your bank account. None of your debit cards operate. None of your credit cards function. You cannot pay your mortgage. You cannot buy gasoline. You cannot buy food. You cannot pay your water bill. You receive a form letter in the mail saying, “Our records indicate that you are in possession of certain illegal firearms. Your finances have been locked until this situation is resolved. Please turn them in to your nearest sheriff's office. Your finances may be restored after your case is reviewed and a determination made.”"

None of which matters because you have years worth of food and gas and literally hundreds of thousands of dollars in gold and silver and cash.

You get the notice... chuckle... and go on about your business.


Next.

Anonymous Noah B. February 08, 2013 2:28 PM  

"When he goes down in a hail of bullets in the next couple of days, will that disprove the myth that guerrilla warfare is effective?"

Of course not. No one has claimed that individual guerrillas are invincible.

Anonymous Poster February 08, 2013 2:30 PM  

Dorner's first two victims were the daughter of a LA cop and her fiance.


Cowardly or not?

Blogger James Dixon February 08, 2013 2:31 PM  

> One day you find that you are locked out of your bank account. None of your debit cards operate. None of your credit cards function.

Now, civilservant, ask yourself this. If the person works day to day for cash (probably under the table)and has no bank account or credit cards, how well is that going to work?

Anonymous Noah B. February 08, 2013 2:32 PM  

@civilServant

"One day you find that you are locked out of your bank account. None of your debit cards operate. None of your credit cards function. You cannot pay your mortgage. You cannot buy gasoline. You cannot buy food. You cannot pay your water bill. You receive a form letter in the mail saying, “Our records indicate that you are in possession of certain illegal firearms. Your finances have been locked until this situation is resolved. Please turn them in to your nearest sheriff's office. Your finances may be restored after your case is reviewed and a determination made."

I believe either you or someone else posted that same text, verbatim, at least once before. Did you write that yourself or is that some wet dream of George Soros that you copied from Media Matters?

Blogger IM2L844 February 08, 2013 2:36 PM  

When he goes down in a hail of bullets in the next couple of days, will that disprove the myth that guerrilla warfare is effective?

Certainly not. He will go down, of course, in a hail of bullets or by his own hand, but that isn't the salient point. I expect he has already collectively cost millions of dollars and provided enough of a distraction to allow widespread petty crimes to go unresponded to. Just a handful of guys (say 50), with similar military training and acting in even a semi-concerted manner could cause exponentially greater cost, chaos and fear for weeks if not months.

Anonymous Josh February 08, 2013 2:36 PM  

So...one guy is typing up a substantial portion of the resources of one of the nation's largest police forces...

What happens when there isn't one guy, but a hundred, and not just in LA, but in a hundred other cities?

And what happens when a male relative of the women who were shot up in a truck decides to also go to war against the cops, and against their families?

Anonymous Porky February 08, 2013 2:38 PM  

I've figured out how to catch him.

Drag Anderson Cooper behind a snowmobile and go trolling. When Dornan inevitably latches on, gaff him and haul him in. Easy.

Anonymous Noah B. February 08, 2013 2:39 PM  

And tell me, von Clausewitz, if guerrilla warfare is ineffective, why is the LAPD, with more than 10,000 officers, wetting itself over a single individual?

Anonymous DrW February 08, 2013 2:42 PM  

If Obama had a son he would look like Dorner...

Anonymous Scintan February 08, 2013 2:43 PM  

Anytime you start feeling touchy/feelie about the U.S. police forces, there's always a site available to get you back on track:

<a href="http://www.policemisconduct.net/>policemisconduct.net</a>

Anonymous VD February 08, 2013 2:49 PM  

One day you find that you are locked out of your bank account. None of your debit cards operate. None of your credit cards function. You cannot pay your mortgage. You cannot buy gasoline. You cannot buy food. You cannot pay your water bill. You receive a form letter in the mail saying, “Our records indicate that you are in possession of certain illegal firearms. Your finances have been locked until this situation is resolved. Please turn them in to your nearest sheriff's office. Your finances may be restored after your case is reviewed and a determination made.”

You're a sheriff. Your colleague sent out the letter above. You get a call. His entire family has had their heads blown off while the two of you were at the office reviewing illegal firearms cases. The killer dies, a suicide, after killing two of your officers and wounding three more. Your colleague resigns, a broken man.

The next list of ten suspected illegal firearms hoarders is sent to you by the ATF. How many letters do you send out?

Keep in mind that 31 mayors in Mexico have been shot and killed since 2006. Most of them now pay $800/month tax to the drug cartels.

Anonymous Stilicho February 08, 2013 2:50 PM  

But now someone is directly targeting the LAPD, and what's worse, he's targeting anyone wearing the uniform, not a specific individual or group. That means anyone wearing a cop uniform in LA now has a bulls eye painted on their back.

How long before the gangs realize just how effective this is and begin doing the same every time a homey gets killed...shot...arrested by the popo?

Blogger Giraffe February 08, 2013 2:50 PM  

Drag Anderson Cooper behind a snowmobile and go trolling. When Dornan inevitably latches on, gaff him and haul him in. Easy.

Might work, but I fear you have to sort through a lot of junk fish* in that part of the world.

*Like Tad, or those like him.

Anonymous bw February 08, 2013 2:50 PM  

Ray

True enough. More Unionized, FOP, pentioned, armed Government parasites living off of the productive class. That gravy train is coming to an end however, one way or another.
But do not overlook the psych-spiritual root of these thugs: their desperate need to be somebody. YOU NEED THEM. Don't you know that? They are sure convinced you do. Of course, they would have to be, no? Just like the teachers, and the...
They have no human desire to help anyone. They desire you live your life by their coercive leave. The bullies and the bullied get to live out their authoritarian fantasies at the expense of the very hosts who provide them with life - all to the benefit of the State. And the cop's ego and bank accounts.

Anonymous bw February 08, 2013 2:51 PM  

largely in exchange for money, LE in the u.s. allowed itself to be tools of oppressive policies and "laws" Ray

Anonymous fish February 08, 2013 2:51 PM  

It would seem I am a statist here. So. It will play itself out this way.

One day you find that you are locked out of your bank account. None of your debit cards operate. None of your credit cards function. You cannot pay your mortgage. You cannot buy gasoline. You cannot buy food. You cannot pay your water bill. You receive a form letter in the mail saying, “Our records indicate that you are in possession of certain illegal firearms. Your finances have been locked until this situation is resolved. Please turn them in to your nearest sheriff's office. Your finances may be restored after your case is reviewed and a determination made.”


As one "civil servant" to another.......snicker.....snort.....Hahahah HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Thank you........your little example of short sleeves with a tie bravado is making my day.

Anonymous Zion's Paladin February 08, 2013 2:51 PM  

When he goes down in a hail of bullets in the next couple of days, will that disprove the myth that guerrilla warfare is effective?

Guerrilla warfare being effective isn't a myth. And it certainly isn't being proven ineffective in this case. One man has managed to tie up a significant portion of a large, well-equipped organization and is still at large. And despite being searched for, he managed to kill another couple of officers.

Now, as mentioned above, no one claims that individual guerrillas are invincible. But they don't have to be. The problem the LAPD faces is that they are a uniformed organization. It is fairly easy to pick a cop out from a bunch of pedestrians or a cop car from regular traffic. The same cannot be said of Dorner, given that they have yet to catch him.

And this is not the nightmare scenario for the LAPD. They know who is after them. They know what he looks like, not too difficult since he used to work for them. They know what kind of vehicle he's using. And they haven't caught him. The nightmare scenario is somebody doing this who was not nice enough to identify himself beforehand. Then every cop will face the horrible, dawning realization that the one after them could be walking right by them and they would never know until it was too late. What the LAPD should be praying for right now is that no one is inspired to join Dorner's crusade.

None of which matters because you have years worth of food and gas and literally hundreds of thousands of dollars in gold and silver and cash.

You get the notice... chuckle... and go on about your business.


Alternatively, you decide that the if the authorities want your firepower so badly, you'll let them have 'em. One bullet at a time.

Anonymous Ridip February 08, 2013 2:52 PM  

The only question at this point is who will kill more people Christopher Dorne or the LAPD?

Anonymous Imatiger February 08, 2013 2:52 PM  

This is currently asymmetric. If this became a common thing, cops would adapt tactics. I'm not sure how many people acting like this would need to plunge police forces into chaos, but I bet it's higher than 1,000.

Anonymous cheddarman February 08, 2013 2:53 PM  

As the resident militant black man, i raise my right fist in salute to brother Dorner!

sincerely

cheddarman

Anonymous fish February 08, 2013 2:55 PM  

As the resident militant black man, i raise my right fist in salute to brother Dorner!

Dude you can't be here.....remember libertarians are RACISS........what will the neighbors say?!

Anonymous ZhukovG February 08, 2013 2:57 PM  

Dorner, an evil and reprehensible man no doubt, has become like a one man Tet Offensive.

He will do little real damage and he will die.

But the LAPD as an organization has lost all credibility. I see things getting even more dangerous for them.

If I was an LAPD cop I think I'd be seeing if Mt Airey NC had any openings.

Anonymous Scintan February 08, 2013 3:01 PM  

I'm not sure how many people acting like this would need to plunge police forces into chaos, but I bet it's higher than 1,000.

The number "1" springs instantly to mind and has been shown to be historically correct.

Anonymous fish February 08, 2013 3:03 PM  

But the LAPD as an organization has lost all credibility.

Really the LAPD lost what little credibility they had left coming out of the "troubles" in the late 60's during the Rodney King affair and subsequent riots! But Korean grocers.....those guys!

Anonymous Tad February 08, 2013 3:04 PM  

@bloody

Tad sez: "Not infrequently? How often does this happen? What number of times that an armored swat team shooting pets and unarmed people happen would make it not infrequent?"

It happens all the damned time. The MSM just doesn't want to upset Massa Gov't by mentioning that inconvenient fact.

A handy Botched Raid Map from CATO


Thanks. By my count on the map provided by CATO the number of instances of "shooting pets and unarmed people" is 66 in the past 30 years.

I think you'll admit this isn't "All the time". However, it may answer the question of what "not infrequent" means.

Anonymous Imatiger February 08, 2013 3:05 PM  

@ Scintan

Source?

Anonymous Anonymous February 08, 2013 3:05 PM  

"None of your credit cards function. You cannot pay your mortgage. You cannot buy gasoline. You cannot buy food. You cannot pay your water bill."

Retailer go bankrupt. Banksters write down their real estate portfolio. Auto finance companies lose income stream. Grocers watch produce slowly decay. Municipalities have too little water to keep sewage processing plants functioning.

The economy collapses and cities burn. Millions of riflemen and .40/45 caliber pistoleros ;^) maintain their independence from the ensuing chaos.

Yeah, that'll learn us real good.

MALTHUS

Blogger Nate February 08, 2013 3:06 PM  

"This is currently asymmetric. If this became a common thing, cops would adapt tactics. I'm not sure how many people acting like this would need to plunge police forces into chaos, but I bet it's higher than 1,000."

Adapt tactics!!!!

Damn!! Why didn't the US military think of that!!!

Anonymous Imatiger February 08, 2013 3:09 PM  

@ Nate

It's not the thinking part that is lacking in the military. It is the consistent execution.

Blogger Nate February 08, 2013 3:10 PM  

"It's not the thinking part that is lacking in the military. It is the consistent execution."

The cops will be much more successful at it.

Right?

Anonymous dh February 08, 2013 3:10 PM  

So statists, tell us again how your fomented civl war against tens of millions of riflemen (& >9mm pistoleros) will play itself out?

Tens of millions is perhaps optimistic. Ten million armchair rebels equals probably 10,000 actual riflemen.

Anonymous Noah B. February 08, 2013 3:11 PM  

"If this became a common thing, cops would adapt tactics."

I agree. They'd do things like stop patrolling, resign, go into hiding, and switch sides.

Anonymous Zion's Paladin February 08, 2013 3:12 PM  

This is currently asymmetric. If this became a common thing, cops would adapt tactics. I'm not sure how many people acting like this would need to plunge police forces into chaos, but I bet it's higher than 1,000.

It's easy to say they'll "adapt tactics." The real bear is how?

The LAPD know who Dorner is, what he looks like, and even what he's driving, and they have yet to catch him. What exactly are they going to do differently to catch someone who has it out for them, but didn't identify himself beforehand?

Anonymous bw February 08, 2013 3:14 PM  

Statist workers assume they are the only ones with Networks. Very Telling. And advantageous.
All your Moral high ground are belong to us.


And as MALTHUS points out, the Orwellian cashless society will not hold. I suspect Vox is right. One way or another, De-Centralization is coming, but they are currently attempting the Slow Burn.

Anonymous Difste February 08, 2013 3:15 PM  

I wish Mr. Donner all the best in his endeavors.

Anonymous Blue Heaven February 08, 2013 3:15 PM  

and switch sides.

Not going to be allowed.

Anonymous Difster February 08, 2013 3:15 PM  

*Dorner.

Anonymous rienzi February 08, 2013 3:15 PM  

@ Civil Servant: It would seem I am a statist here. So. It will play itself out this way.

One day you find that you are locked out of your bank account. None of your debit cards operate. None of your credit cards function. You cannot pay your mortgage. You cannot buy gasoline. You cannot buy food. You cannot pay your water bill. You receive a form letter in the mail saying, “Our records indicate that you are in possession of certain illegal firearms. Your finances have been locked until this situation is resolved. Please turn them in to your nearest sheriff's office. Your finances may be restored after your case is reviewed and a determination made.”

I suppose that, at that point, if I hadn't prepared with cash, food, etc., that I would just think that I had nothing left to lose, and would go all medieval on the asses of every banker, LEO, and civil servant that I ran across. Yeah, I'd eventually get killed, but hey, why not? May as well go down swinging.

You must have been absent from school the day they covered this, (If they covered it at all): "Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" Patrick Henry, 1775.

Anonymous Noah B. February 08, 2013 3:17 PM  

Damn, someone should tell Dorner that what he's doing isn't allowed. I wonder if anyone has tried that.

Blogger Nate February 08, 2013 3:18 PM  

"Tens of millions is perhaps optimistic. Ten million armchair rebels equals probably 10,000 actual riflemen."

I agree.

Now... what is the result? 10k people... killing cops and mayors and congressmen and their families... irs agents... postmen... whoever.

The result is... the US stops functioning. Completely.

Anonymous Edjamacator February 08, 2013 3:18 PM  

What number of times that an armored swat team shooting pets and unarmed people happen would make it not infrequent?

Tad, even ONE time is more than enough! Think of the children! Why do you hate kids, Tad? How many kids have to die before you say "that's enough, even I can't take it anymore?!"

Anonymous Darth Toolpodicus February 08, 2013 3:21 PM  

@Tad

Not infrequently? How often does this happen? What number of times that an armored swat team shooting pets and unarmed people happen would make it not infrequent?

Since 1995, there have been nearly 300 botched SWAT raids–where, for example, an innocent person or nonviolent offender was killed or worse, there was a “wrong address” raid That's just humans, the pet count is likely much higher.

Anonymous Anonymous February 08, 2013 3:24 PM  

I dunno man... wasn't Robin Hood a socialist?

Anonymous Josh February 08, 2013 3:26 PM  

The result is... the US stops functioning. Completely.

You wouldn't need 10,000...it would probably take less than 1,000...and consider that, in their efforts to stop or kill those 1,000...law enforcement would be creating another 10,000 because they tend to do things like shoot up random trucks...

Anonymous Josh February 08, 2013 3:28 PM  

I dunno man... wasn't Robin Hood a socialist?

No. He didn't steal from the rich, he stole from the state. The money he gave to the poor and oppressed was their own money that had been taxed away from them.

Anonymous ZhukovG February 08, 2013 3:30 PM  

Change Tactics = More Oppression = More Resistance = Change Tactics......

And it ends in flames.

Anonymous Hey There February 08, 2013 3:33 PM  

In the original story of Robin Hood, Robin stole from government officials who had jacked up taxes and gave the taxes he stole from the officials back to the people. Robin Hood was a libertarian.

Anonymous Clay February 08, 2013 3:34 PM  

OT...but, Big Surprise!

Anonymous Zion's Paladin February 08, 2013 3:38 PM  

@Josh

Depends on which version of Robin Hood you're talking about. In some of them, he did steal from the rich, but either they were involved with the state anyway, or he eventually realizes he's doing it wrong and goes after the state.

Anonymous Daniel February 08, 2013 3:38 PM  

I promised you, cops, not to do the things you done.
I've walked away from beating suspects just for fun.
Now please don't think I'm weak, I didn't turn the other cheek,
And popo, I sure hope you understand:
Sometimes you gotta fight when you're a man.

- The Coward of LA County

Blogger IM2L844 February 08, 2013 3:39 PM  

The result is... the US stops functioning. Completely.

Hell, a sufficiently covert softball team sized force could bring the whole L.A. area and surrounding "Inland Empire" to a screeching halt.

Anonymous Jabari February 08, 2013 3:40 PM  

Since 1995, there have been nearly 300 botched SWAT raids–where, for example, an innocent person or nonviolent offender was killed or worse, there was a “wrong address” raid That's just humans, the pet count is likely much higher.

This seems really, really low. It's not counting "wrong-address" raids that don't end in death (they're still wrong even if the only "damage" is terror).

There have been numbers thrown around in the FedUp section of the market-ticker forums upwards of 250k a year for dogs. (I believe that the 250k includes "good" shoots, but that's an awful lot total - some of the stories they link in that forum are horrific.)

Anonymous Alexander February 08, 2013 3:42 PM  

Drudge is having a blast today. Our nation's finest still can't catch Dorner but they found time to shoot a teenager and a homeless guy and chase a woman with a helicopter.

Anonymous rycamor February 08, 2013 3:42 PM  

Nate February 08, 2013 3:10 PM

"It's not the thinking part that is lacking in the military. It is the consistent execution."

The cops will be much more successful at it.

Right?


My best snicker of the day, thanks.

Anonymous RedJack February 08, 2013 3:43 PM  

dh

10,000 insurgents in the US would tie up the whole US military.

Look at how many were active in the Stan at any one time.

Blogger Jehu February 08, 2013 3:45 PM  

I'm not sure what to make of this widespread and pervasive misuse of the word coward. Obviously anyone who takes a course of action likely to end in his extinction with very high probability is not a coward or lacking in physical courage. Is it that we're terribly uncomfortable using the various words for evil or enemy or adversary so we just stick coward where it doesn't really belong? And, of course, it's quite possible that there are no 'good guys' in this story.

Anonymous test123 February 08, 2013 3:49 PM  

Liberals chickens...are coming home....to roost.
----The Bizarro Jeremiah Wright.

Otherwise knowin as: what happens when give an affirmative action case a gun and an all-encompassing of Big Daddy Government.

Savagery.

Anonymous jack February 08, 2013 3:49 PM  

@Nate and others: who laugh at the people who believe asymmetric war won't work...

asymmetric. Those who decry asymmetric warfare should talk to the many veterans of places like Viet Nam, Afghanistan etc. Ask them just how effective their asymmetric opponents were. I was in one of those 'asymmetric' efforts and, to my count, I don't think the USA has won one yet. With the unbelievable rules of engagement on the backs of our troops these days that record will stay unblemished.

Anonymous bloomin idjit February 08, 2013 3:52 PM  

Dorner is neither cowardly nor courageous. He is heroically evil.

Anonymous DT February 08, 2013 3:53 PM  

Our nation's finest still can't catch Dorner but they found time to shoot a teenager and a homeless guy and chase a woman with a helicopter.

A teenager?

There is no longer any room for debate. We. Must. Act. Now. It's time for gun control laws for law enforcement officers.

If it can save even one child...or one teenager...or two women in a blue pickup...then we are obligated as a nation to try.

Normal cops should only have tasers. SWAT teams can have guns. But there must be an Assault Weapon Ban put in place on SWAT. No assault rifles. No high capacity magazines. No flash suppressors, pistol grips, etc.

Do it for the children!

Anonymous bloody barbarian February 08, 2013 3:57 PM  

@ Jabari : This seems really, really low. It's not counting "wrong-address" raids that don't end in death (they're still wrong even if the only "damage" is terror).

Yeah, Tad's ignoring the second link I provided, showing that these Stormtrooper raids do indeed happen "all the damned time."

Radly Balko is running a Raid of the Day, which he began last month and will put up each weekday until June -- but Balko says "I could have started this feature a couple years ago, and still have had more than enough examples to take us through June."

Read the details of these things. If you're not angry about it, you're an imbecile. Like Tad. Who should be Shutting Up.

Blogger Jehu February 08, 2013 3:57 PM  

Jack,
It is unlikely that there'd be any rules of engagement in the US. The rules that govern such conflicts would all be thrown out pretty fast. Some people may learn the true power of a modern military with the gloves totally off. However the Achilles heel of modern forces isn't really there, its in their tremendous logistical requirements. Anything more than a 'whiskey rebellion' and the US transport and electrical infrastructure is toast. That is what has the potential to kill a lot more people than DHS ammunition, artillery, or drone strikes.

Anonymous DT February 08, 2013 3:58 PM  

Like Tad. Who should be Shutting Up.

But his posts are so entertaining. Like watching a retarded child count to potato.

Anonymous Imatiger February 08, 2013 3:58 PM  

I'm not arguing that the police would be excellent at fighting an asymmetric war, just that because police forces are smaller than the current behemoth that is the U.S. military, it is more likely they would be better than the military.

As for tactics, the police might set up roving roadblocks. Train more canine units. Put more plainclothes cops on the street. Justify civil liberty crackdowns. Not things I want to see, but I just don't see 1,000 guerillas permanently paralyzing the powers that be.

Anonymous Alexander February 08, 2013 4:00 PM  

Something else these statist chaps aren't considering - how much support there isn't for the forces in charge.

Ok, so in this case it's just one guy doing the shooting. But how many other people aren't doing anything? How many people didn't phone in sightings of a similar make and model car? How many people saw a big black guy hightailing out of LA and just went on about their business?

I'm down smack in the middle of Georgia, and NOT ONE person either in real life or facebook has said something like 'prayer for the police and their families'. This is not the usual responsible to headline news tragedy.

Anonymous Rally February 08, 2013 4:01 PM  

The funniest part of that question is "you cannot pay your mortgage".

Ok then, I'll live in my house mortgage free for at least 3 years. I know plenty of people doing exactly that.

Anonymous civilServant February 08, 2013 4:09 PM  

None of which matters because you have years worth of food and gas and literally hundreds of thousands of dollars in gold and silver and cash.

If the person works day to day for cash (probably under the table) and has no bank account or credit cards, how well is that going to work?


A non-response upgrades the data point.

You're a sheriff. Your colleague sent out the letter above.

Amateur.

The letter is not sent by any sheriff's office. The sheriff's office is simply a drop-off point. And the drop-off point need not be the sheriff. It could be any one of dozens of offices or even simply an address. And killing or disrupting any of these is irrelevant as such action will not restore discontinued finances. It will however make you a murderer.

And violence also upgrades the data point.

Most will comply. They will have no choice. This isolates the remainder to a manageable quantity.

Upgraded data points will quailfiy for upgraded attention consisting of analysis of likely target parameters. Family tree and employment data will be parsed. Property records will be lined up. Internet search and credit card history will be collated. License plate readers and facial recognition cameras and residue sniffers and radar scans will gather timed movement data. Proximities will be graphed. You will stand out like a palm tree on a prarie or a meadow in a forest.

Second level responses will include: social and economic isolation for those of you who believe yourselves independent within a community; SWAT action for those of you who believe yourselves independent of any community; and silent unreported drone strikes against those of you who prove too expensive to address in any other manner.

Understand. You are not the star of the show. This is not about you. This need not happen all at once. This is a methodical step by step procedure accomplished at their leisure to achieve their goals. A handful of murdered sheriffs will not stop them. A handful of men in the wilderness rallying around a flag or fort will not stop them. A handful of loners in the wastelands will not stop them. Any strong points will be bypassed and dealt with later at leisure. The goal is not to make you famous. The goal is to lock you out.

Most of you are so withdrawn already they need only put a padlock on your door.

Anonymous Darth Toolpodicus February 08, 2013 4:11 PM  

@Jabari:

This seems really, really low. It's not counting "wrong-address" raids that don't end in death (they're still wrong even if the only "damage" is terror).

Its definitely low, but the author of the book it's from stuck to the documented cases he could find...acknowledging that PD's around the country do not keep these kinds of records and certainly do not publish figures on botched raids.

Anonymous DT February 08, 2013 4:11 PM  

Not things I want to see, but I just don't see 1,000 guerillas permanently paralyzing the powers that be.

I think TPTB soiled their underwear and overreacted to 9/11 because they know that a nation state can be paralyzed by far less than 1,000.

I don't want to see the U.S. slip further towards tyranny or the SHTF. I desperately pray for peaceful events to restore some of our lost liberty and to preserve America for a while longer. I have no illusions of something better rising from the ashes for the next generation. Short of Christ returning at that time, it would likely be centuries for anything better to form. (The only possible scenario I can imagine where something better would form instantly would be Federal bankruptcy followed by a peaceful break up of the states. And even in that scenario there's no guarantee.)

But if the U.S. does finally fall into absolute tyranny, the would be tyrants are going to have a rude awakening. Show me a thousand angry patriots willing to die for their beliefs, and I'll show you a nation brought straight to its knees.

Anonymous civilServant February 08, 2013 4:13 PM  

Retailer go bankrupt.

It will not happen all at once.

Anonymous Anonymous February 08, 2013 4:14 PM  

and switch sides.

Not going to be allowed.--Blue Heaven

[And it will be] as if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him. Amos 5:19 KJV

Yes. The die is cast. They will find no aid and comfort among us.

MALTHUS

Anonymous DT February 08, 2013 4:15 PM  

Upgraded data points will quailfiy for upgraded attention consisting of analysis of likely target parameters.

Seems to be working well in the current case of the rogue LAPD officer.

Oh...wait....

Anonymous CrazyDiamond February 08, 2013 4:16 PM  

Of course calling this "cowardice" is silly. We went through all this back after 9/11. I'm surprised that particular rhetoric has survived to be reused today, but maybe I shouldn't be. What's your motto, again?...MPAI.

Anonymous Athor Pel February 08, 2013 4:16 PM  

" civilServant February 08, 2013 2:20 PM
...
One day you find that you are locked out of your bank account. None of your debit cards operate. None of your credit cards function. You cannot pay your mortgage. You cannot buy gasoline. You cannot buy food. You cannot pay your water bill. You receive a form letter in the mail saying, “Our records indicate that you are in possession of certain illegal firearms. Your finances have been locked until this situation is resolved. Please turn them in to your nearest sheriff's office. Your finances may be restored after your case is reviewed and a determination made.”
"




If you've thought about this kind of thing for as long as I have you will utter one word, Finally. There are lots of folks impatiently waiting for that day. They know it's coming. They just want to get it over with. To get on with the other half of their life.

As for the nitty gritty. It is not an end game. It's a reset.

Even if you don't have the vast resources squirreled away like Nate you will still have some resources to draw on. You certainly won't stay in one place. You certainly won't allow what you have accumulated get confiscated by government agents.

You will move. Even walking can get you surprisingly far if you keep moving. Unless you've done something stupid and/or violent they won't be coming for you immediately. This gives you all the time you need.

You will spread your resources around. You will be giving much of it to your neighbors and extended family. The bulk of your gun collection certainly won't be above ground.

You will be changing your identity. If an illegal alien can get functional ID in this country so can a citizen. Plus, as has been mentioned before working for cash is an easily done thing.

You will eventually find other people that had the same thing happen to them. These people will have nothing left to lose. Whatever rules normal people use to function in society will be so much noise to these folks.

They may form their own self sufficient communities far away from anyone that could interfere with them. They may decide to wage war on agents of the state. They may turn themselves into a warlord led army and carve out some territory for themselves. Whatever it is they do it won't be cowering at the fear you are attempting to project.



I hope you've paid attention to the implications of all this. A government can't do this on a wide scale and hope to retain control of a nation. If you disenfranchise enough principled free thinking people you sow the seeds of your own irrelevance.

If you kick them out of your system they will build another. Another that they are in control of.

Think hard. Every action has consequence.

Anonymous civilServant February 08, 2013 4:17 PM  

"Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" Patrick Henry, 1775.

A good question. The answer depends on who answers it. Have you looked around at your fellow citizens lately?

Anonymous daddynichol February 08, 2013 4:18 PM  

Christopher Dorner will be the poster boy for "F*** the Police" for blacks and disenfranchised people across the country. He will find those who will give him shelter, food and continued support simply because he has taken this course of action against the epic corruption in the LAPD.

Right now, I would bet good money that southern California gangs will use the fear running thru LA law enforcement and start some serious shit. Cops are gonna freak even more.

Anonymous fish February 08, 2013 4:18 PM  

Understand. You are not the star of the show. This is not about you. This need not happen all at once. This is a methodical step by step procedure accomplished at their leisure to achieve their goals.

Yeah...that's right "you" are the star of the show!

Let me know how the novel turns Tom Clancy.

Anonymous Zion's Paladin February 08, 2013 4:22 PM  

As for tactics, the police might set up roving roadblocks. Train more canine units. Put more plainclothes cops on the street. Justify civil liberty crackdowns.

And do you think that would decrease the number of guerrillas? Or increase? Keep in mind that they would be executing this against a lot of people who haven't done anything, especially the civil liberty crackdowns, i.e. guilty until proven innocent.

And killing or disrupting any of these is irrelevant as such action will not restore discontinued finances. It will however make you a murderer.

So you think they will balk at robbery when they are already murderers?

Upgraded data points will quailfiy for upgraded attention consisting of analysis of likely target parameters. Family tree and employment data will be parsed. Property records will be lined up. Internet search and credit card history will be collated. License plate readers and facial recognition cameras and residue sniffers and radar scans will gather timed movement data. Proximities will be graphed. You will stand out like a palm tree on a prarie or a meadow in a forest.

Which is why it has worked so well to catch Dorner. Wait...

Oh well, I'm sure it will work just fine when they have to do it against a thousand individuals whose names they don't know, have any photos of, or any idea of what they are driving.

Second level responses will include: social and economic isolation for those of you who believe yourselves independent within a community; SWAT action for those of you who believe yourselves independent of any community; and silent unreported drone strikes against those of you who prove too expensive to address in any other manner.

They have to know who they're targeting first. And if the targeted individuals are indeed responsible and know they are targeted, they would be utter fools to stay put. They would instead pull up roots and start moving around. Y'know, like Dorner's doing right now.

Understand. You are not the star of the show. This is not about you. This need not happen all at once. This is a methodical step by step procedure accomplished at their leisure to achieve their goals. A handful of murdered sheriffs will not stop them. A handful of men in the wilderness rallying around a flag or fort will not stop them. A handful of loners in the wastelands will not stop them. Any strong points will be bypassed and dealt with later at leisure. The goal is not to make you famous. The goal is to lock you out.

Which only works so long as every part of the machine works. When those parts start refusing to do their part, the machine breaks down.

Anonymous Alexander February 08, 2013 4:24 PM  

Civilservant, tell ya what.

When the police can track down one guy explicitly out to get them with all the national, state, and one of the largest cities in the country backing them up... then we'll talk about what qualifies as 'a manageable quantity'.

Then we'll discuss what it requires to view the citizenry as a quantity to be managed, but I suspect if it comes down to putting that into practice it'll be a moot point anyway.

Anonymous dh February 08, 2013 4:27 PM  

10,000 insurgents in the US would tie up the whole US military.

Look at how many were active in the Stan at any one time.


Agree.

But, on the other hand, if the government felt actually threatened it would change things. Afganistan and Iraq both were wars where it was asymmetric - our side was self-limited to certain ROE, the otherside was not so restrained.

The US military, if appropriately directed, has the ability to do a lot of damage, and kill a lot of people, when no held back by rules and policies designed to slow it down.

Blogger Nate February 08, 2013 4:27 PM  

Civilservant... you're a complete idiot.

you're assuming anyone believes they will survive. They don't have to. Many won't want to. upgraded data points? How many upgraded data points for killing 5 cops, the families of 3 cops, a judge and his whole family, and then ending it all by driving a truck full of explosives into the local police station?

After that happens just a few times... who will be left to enforce the laws?

Take a good look at mexico son. A good long long.

The authorities only win because the people maintain a level of predictable civility. As soon as the people take the gloves off... the game is over.

Blogger Nate February 08, 2013 4:28 PM  

"The US military, if appropriately directed, has the ability to do a lot of damage, and kill a lot of people, when no held back by rules and policies designed to slow it down."

unfortunately it doesn't have the ability to kill the insurgents faster than it creates them.

Anonymous dh February 08, 2013 4:29 PM  

Think hard. Every action has consequence.

That's true, just not necessarily the one you think it will be.

Anonymous dh February 08, 2013 4:31 PM  

unfortunately it doesn't have the ability to kill the insurgents faster than it creates them.

Assuming facts not in evidence.

Americans of today are not the Americans of yesterday. The fact that the shooting hasn't already started is strong indication it will never start.

Anonymous Darth Toolpodicus February 08, 2013 4:31 PM  

@civilservant

A handful of men in the wilderness rallying around a flag or fort will not stop them. A handful of loners in the wastelands will not stop them. Any strong points will be bypassed and dealt with later at leisure. The goal is not to make you famous. The goal is to lock you out.

Wishful thinking at its finest. Your isolation wet-dream will not work out so well, you may be able to separate people from some resources, but their networks? Doubtful. It's not a "meadow in a forest" problem, it is a "spruce tree in a pine forest" problem.

Half-assed grubby sheep diddlers have tied the U.S. Military in knots. American citizens with a lot more going on than some Taliban douchebag will turn out to be capable of a lot more mayhem.

If things go as far as your describe, people will start taking care of all manner of civil servants...neighbors will be ratting out the short-sleeves & tie guys that commute out to the exurbs in their minivan...anybody that they CAN reach...even if "he only works at NIST, or SSA, or the doc center in Pueblo Colorado, 81009".

Ironically, a major domestic "problem" would likely end up with relaxed Rules Of Engagement that troops in the Desert WISH they had with Jihadis. (c.f.: the last civil war) Americans know how to be terrible with each other. The brutality would make Bosnia look like a picnic.

because police forces are smaller than the current behemoth that is the U.S. military, it is more likely they would be better than the military.

There's a reason why the .mil looks down on the cops: It's because the cops are inferior in almost every measure. Cops are only as "effective" as they are because they always outnumber their opponents. Troops make fun of civilian SWAT, because SWAT guys are never outnumbered and are never taking on armed, competent opposition that are ready for them and ready to kill.

Blogger tz February 08, 2013 4:32 PM  

Keep in mind that 31 mayors in Mexico have been shot and killed since 2006. Most of them now pay $800/month tax to the drug cartels.

Ocho cientos dollares en uno mes? Tengo que aprendar espanol mas rapido! Es demasiado caro vivi en los estadios unidos! (As I'm doing Pimsleur, I can speak far better than I can write at the moment).

I noted on the other thread our cowardly drone and torture war. Yet if we get drones, we can dump the police and run the drones from mexico or india - subcontract the death machines.

Yet drones are rather simple devices and the code open. I'm waiting for the first DIY drone to do damage.

Anonymous dh February 08, 2013 4:32 PM  

Take a good look at mexico son. A good long long.

The authorities only win because the people maintain a level of predictable civility. As soon as the people take the gloves off... the game is over.


Yes, we can look at Mexico. It's like two countries. In one country, it's just normal. It looks like any western country. In the other, it's a 3rd world banana dictatorship.

But, the government has held on for decades. Is this really the worst case scenario you think it is? Mexico is a lot of things, but it's clearly not the worst case scenario.

Anonymous fish February 08, 2013 4:33 PM  

The US military, if appropriately directed, has the ability to do a lot of damage, and kill a lot of people, when no held back by rules and policies designed to slow it down.

Yeah and most here will probably be dead....and guys like you, Asher and tad will be left to enjoy the police state you so crave. I hope you enjoy your "on your knees" time as much as tad does.

Anonymous Alexander February 08, 2013 4:35 PM  

It also would be destroying its own resource base. If the US military starts bombing shit in Atlanta or Houston or Seattle, then how in the hell are Atlanta or Houston or Seattle going to keep the tribute flowing? It's easy to cripple someone by blowing up their factories and refineries - little harder when you have to fight while blowing up your own. And even if you can convince men to turn their guns on their own communities, how many of them will do it without pay?

Anonymous dh February 08, 2013 4:35 PM  

There's a reason why the .mil looks down on the cops: It's because the cops are inferior in almost every measure. Cops are only as "effective" as they are because they always outnumber their opponents. Troops make fun of civilian SWAT, because SWAT guys are never outnumbered and are never taking on armed, competent opposition that are ready for them and ready to kill.

This is pretty interesting. I've also seen the relatively elite Rangers mercilessly mocking civilian "elite" police, as well as other military branches (esp. Air Force, the Army esp. MP's, etc). I can only imagine what 10k-15k elite Delta & SEAL operators think...

Anonymous fish February 08, 2013 4:36 PM  

Americans of today are not the Americans of yesterday. The fact that the shooting hasn't already started is strong indication it will never start.

I look forward to the laughs associated with your new and radiant future when it's populated with the likes of the "Obamaphone Lady" and her bretheren.

Anonymous dh February 08, 2013 4:37 PM  

Yeah and most here will probably be dead....and guys like you, Asher and tad will be left to enjoy the police state you so crave. I hope you enjoy your "on your knees" time as much as tad does.

Don't be so quick to assume that Americans won't enjoy a police state. Esp. after the most violent are slaughtered and the military put back into it's place.

Anonymous civilServant February 08, 2013 4:38 PM  

Think hard. Every action has consequence.

That's true, just not necessarily the one you think it will be.


A better answer than mine.

Civilservant... you're a complete idiot.

I hope you are not.

Anonymous Raggededge February 08, 2013 4:39 PM  

@dh: Americans of today are not the Americans of yesterday. The fact that the shooting hasn't already started is strong indication it will never start.

uhh, this thread is about a guy that IS shooting.

Anonymous dh February 08, 2013 4:39 PM  

It also would be destroying its own resource base. If the US military starts bombing shit in Atlanta or Houston or Seattle, then how in the hell are Atlanta or Houston or Seattle going to keep the tribute flowing? It's easy to cripple someone by blowing up their factories and refineries - little harder when you have to fight while blowing up your own. And even if you can convince men to turn their guns on their own communities, how many of them will do it without pay?

For a while I suspect that hard resources and protection will be the pay. Over time that's I am sure the governments #1 weakness. Perhaps they have realized this and started to plan for it.

Anonymous Noah B. February 08, 2013 4:39 PM  

Because whenever I'm in combat, my immediate concern is some worthless pencildick bureaucrat sitting in a cubicle doing genealogy research.

Anonymous dh February 08, 2013 4:41 PM  

uhh, this thread is about a guy that IS shooting.

Yes, and where is the rest of the revolution?

...

Exactly. I rest my case.

Let me just tell you how this will end up. Either the guy ends up dead, shortly, or he gets caught before he can pop himself off. If he is taken alive, this is The Trial of The Century (of the week). After 15 minutes of fame 10 times, this guy fades into the history books.

The LAPD gets investigated for civil rights abuses, and a report issued. A few people make some murmurings, and nothing substantial changes. A functionary or few front-line cops get disciplined.

Anonymous Zion's Paladin February 08, 2013 4:42 PM  

Americans of today are not the Americans of yesterday. The fact that the shooting hasn't already started is strong indication it will never start.

Yes, those colonials were just a right trigger-happy bunch, weren't they? Never mind that they took every possible measure and step to try and get the British government to listen and back down before things snowballed. That was just a cover so they could shoot some redcoats.

The US military, if appropriately directed, has the ability to do a lot of damage, and kill a lot of people, when no held back by rules and policies designed to slow it down.

Sure...assuming that if/when they are used against the people they are sworn to defend, those rules and policies are lifted and they all do what they are told.

And if those rules and policies are lifted, do you think the military is going to have any more success at whittling down the number of people against them than the British did doing similar things to the colonials? Or against the insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan for that matter?

Anonymous Darth Toolpodicus February 08, 2013 4:43 PM  

@dh:

I know that it happens often enough in "joint .mil civ po-po" operations that the .mil guys often have to be told to knock-off picking on the SWAT guys for being pussies. I've heard guys openly mock SWAT for "never having to really fight".

"I can only imagine what 10k-15k elite Delta & SEAL operators think..."

Or the much larger number of *former* operators that live out in the civilian population now.

Anonymous Raggededge February 08, 2013 4:44 PM  

@dh: Yes, and where is the rest of the revolution?

Not my fault you are effing tone deaf.

Anonymous Noah B. February 08, 2013 4:44 PM  

"Let me just tell you how this will end up."

You speak as though you're saying something profound. Who here has predicted anything different?

Blogger tz February 08, 2013 4:47 PM  

What is missed is how fragile our interconnected civilization is. It is one thing to go after isolated individuals or do petty control things like the TSA.

It is another thing entirely to have a large number of people ready to disrupt and destroy. Remember how primitive Afghanistan is. Note how successful our hi-tech is there. Anyone out east can remember the blackout just under a decade ago. Perhaps they can suspend ONE person's account, but what happens when a few dozen stop fuel from being delivered across the country (there are only a few refineries thanks to the greenies), stops lots of food (few transcontinental tracks - think Atlas Shrugged but with malice), ...

(Quick note - SWAT or such kill people weekly. policemisconduct.net)

Police today have the rapidly fading echo of the culture of WW2 - even the Baby Boomers were anti-establishment. It won't take much to make cops hated. I call them "blue-coats" but what I'm thinking of is the picture of the Boston Massacre (though it turns out, John Adam's famous quote "facts are stubborn things", was that they were a brutish mob so the RedCoats' actions were justifiable).

The Guestapo and Stasi were feared, but as one might fear a venomous creature, without respect and such that killing it when possible is the best thing. If the police here wish to become hated, so be it.

But I see many Sheriffs saying "No" to the Feds doing a gun-grab. I think the police will be polarized, yet if that happens, the constables might win over the blue-coats. In Vox's above example, the Sheriff can send out select deputies to serve the warrants without backup (and after they leave, give a courtesy call to inform the person they are coming).

Anonymous Daniel February 08, 2013 4:53 PM  

Real actual headline:

Dorner manhunt: Sheriff says ex-cop not a threat to ski resorts

Anonymous dh February 08, 2013 4:53 PM  

And if those rules and policies are lifted, do you think the military is going to have any more success at whittling down the number of people against them than the British did doing similar things to the colonials? Or against the insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan for that matter?
Yes, claiming otherwise is to pretend we didn't see exactly that during the Civil War.

One side will win.

We are seeing the same thing in Syria right now. One side will win, we just dont know which one yet (although the fact that the government hasn't won is a good indication that it probably won't).

The Revolutionary War is not the best example of what will happen.

Blogger Nate February 08, 2013 4:54 PM  

"I can only imagine what 10k-15k elite Delta & SEAL operators think..."

The notion that you think there are this many Delta and SEAL operators indicates that my assessment of your intellectual capacity is correct.

There are 2500 or so active duty SEALs at a given time. Delta has less than half that. Like less than 1000.

Blogger James Dixon February 08, 2013 4:55 PM  

> The US military, if appropriately directed, has the ability to do a lot of damage, and kill a lot of people, when no held back by rules and policies designed to slow it down.

Yes, they do. Most of whom will be innocent bystanders. And this helps them exactly how?

Anonymous fish February 08, 2013 4:55 PM  

Don't be so quick to assume that Americans won't enjoy a police state. Esp. after the most violent are slaughtered and the military put back into it's place.

I didn't think we would get such a bold acknowledgment that you are indeed looking forward to servicing you new "overlords" Kent. As I said, enjoy it!

Anonymous dh February 08, 2013 4:55 PM  

Police today have the rapidly fading echo of the culture of WW2 - even the Baby Boomers were anti-establishment. It won't take much to make cops hated. I call them "blue-coats" but what I'm thinking of is the picture of the Boston Massacre (though it turns out, John Adam's famous quote "facts are stubborn things", was that they were a brutish mob so the RedCoats' actions were justifiable).

Everyone already hates the cops. What we are talking about is going from complaining to killing.

If you are a deeply conservative, Christian person - one who thinks that, say, Michele Bachman was unsuited to be President because she's a woman and too liberal, and you haven't already started shooting, than it's pretty clear that no events will make you start.

There is no intolerable act for this country.

Anonymous Anonymous February 08, 2013 4:56 PM  

"It's rather like reading Robin Hood and being expected to cheer for the Sheriff of Nottingham. "

Always did. Support the two bit criminal with a great publicist who is debauching a noble woman? ICKY.

Stealing from good merchants and the upper classes to give to serfs and "poor"? Close to a communist insurgency.






Anonymous Anonymous February 08, 2013 4:59 PM  

Retailer go bankrupt.

It will not happen all at once.--civil servant

I am amused by your handle. Is it intentionally ironic?

Have you looked at the profit margins of Amazon and Walmart? They are razor thin. Can you imagine what even a small disruption to the JIT inventory replenishment logistic chain would entail?

Perhaps you can freeze my bank account but can you furnish food to SNAP card recipients when the shelves are empty? Do you suppose they will be apt to forgive "civil servants" who promised to keep the gravy train going?

Push on at your own peril, my friend.

MALTHUS



Anonymous Scintan February 08, 2013 4:59 PM  

If you are a deeply conservative, Christian person - one who thinks that, say, Michele Bachman was unsuited to be President because she's a woman and too liberal, and you haven't already started shooting, than it's pretty clear that no events will make you start.

You should probably take the time to re-think this portion of your post.

Anonymous Zion's Paladin February 08, 2013 5:00 PM  

"Let me just tell you how this will end up."

You speak as though you're saying something profound. Who here has predicted anything different?


Indeed.

dh, no one here has predicted that Dorner's vendetta is the spark that will start the revolution. We are pointing out how much trouble the LAPD as a whole is having against one reasonably competent and equipped individual and noting that if they are having this much trouble now, it doesn't look good if a revolution did start or if a few other individuals decide to follow Dorner's lead.

That's not to say it couldn't be though. I don't see Dorner sparking anything more than a few follow-the-leader types, but then I doubt anyone back in 1775 thought that Lexington and Concord would end up being as significant as they did. It's rather hard to predict which spark will light a fire.

Anonymous dh February 08, 2013 5:00 PM  

Yes, they do. Most of whom will be innocent bystanders. And this helps them exactly how?

Most but not all. For everyone 1000 innocents, if they get 1 rebel, that's probably not a losing proposition.

Let's see - if there are 10,000 rebels, and the ratio is 1000:1, it means that only 10,000,000 deaths to wipe out the rebels.

If you don't think the government is willing to wipe out 10M citizens to maintain order, than I think you are mistaken.

The truth of history is that "decimation" works. For keeping order in the ranks, and for punishments among the civilians. Yes, sometimes the rebels win, but most of the time, the rebels lose. That's the lesson of history. And the reality is that too many Americans will accept order over any perceived injustice.

Anonymous fnn February 08, 2013 5:03 PM  

Darkly humorous:

LIFE IN THE LAPD

Anonymous E. PERLINE February 08, 2013 5:08 PM  

There's another angle to this. The police are lauded for doing a difficult and risky job, right?

But try to fire one for good reason and they use union representatives and the courts and their own lawyers to keep the job.

Why do they fight so hard to hold onto a difficult and risky job?

Anonymous dh February 08, 2013 5:09 PM  

That's not to say it couldn't be though. I don't see Dorner sparking anything more than a few follow-the-leader types, but then I doubt anyone back in 1775 thought that Lexington and Concord would end up being as significant as they did. It's rather hard to predict which spark will light a fire.

This is true enough. You are incorrect about 1775. Lexington & Concord lead the next day to the Seige of Boston, which was the Revolutionary War proper. Within 2 days, militia had blocked off resupply of the British Forces, the Continental Congress had met and started formulating the Continental Army. Within two weeks, Benedict Arnold had marched on Fort Ticonderoga. Within two months, General Washington arrived with his Army to re-inforce Boston and build the blockade.

Lexington & Concord must certainly was, as VP Biden would say, a big deal.

Blogger James Dixon February 08, 2013 5:09 PM  

> If you don't think the government is willing to wipe out 10M citizens to maintain order, than I think you are mistaken.

Entirely possible. But how many family members of those killed will join the opposition? That's the key question, and we don't know. You could be entirely correct that it will be so few that it won't be a problem for the government. You could be completely wrong. Neither of us knows.

> And the reality is that too many Americans will accept order over any perceived injustice.

That's your best guess. We have no evidence either way. We'll just have to wait and see. The fact that so many people of your persuasion are arguing that it's a lost cause likely means that my optimistic estimates that it would happen after I was dead and gone were probably wrong. You're so overconfident that you'll push things much faster than I expected. Strange how a single election can have that effect.

Anonymous Zion's Paladin February 08, 2013 5:09 PM  

If you are a deeply conservative, Christian person - one who thinks that, say, Michele Bachman was unsuited to be President because she's a woman and too liberal, and you haven't already started shooting, than it's pretty clear that no events will make you start.

There is no intolerable act for this country.


What would you call the colonials of 1775? They were deeply principled Christians who had no desire to start something with the British government if their grievances could be peacefully resolved. But the government kept pushing, and look where things ended up.

Not to mention that you are being foolish to think that right-leaning Christians are the only people you have to worry about starting something. Dorner ain't exactly the poster boy for libertarians.

Anonymous dh February 08, 2013 5:10 PM  

Why do they fight so hard to hold onto a difficult and risky job?

People sue to work at Walmart for minimum wage. Rabbits gonna rabbit...

Anonymous Daniel February 08, 2013 5:11 PM  

Possibly related, real headline:

Amish leader gets 15 years for beard attacks


Okay, not related. But a real headline.

Beard control NOW!

Anonymous dh February 08, 2013 5:11 PM  

What would you call the colonials of 1775? They were deeply principled Christians who had no desire to start something with the British government if their grievances could be peacefully resolved. But the government kept pushing, and look where things ended up.

Sorry, but the America of 1775 is gone. You are now living in the post-1865 America.

Anonymous Noah B. February 08, 2013 5:12 PM  

"If you don't think the government is willing to wipe out 10M citizens to maintain order, than I think you are mistaken."

I'm not saying you're wrong here -- in fact, I completely agree -- but what kind of government is it that would kill 10M people for the ostensible reason of stopping 15k gun-related deaths per year? You could hardly make a better case to illustrate the insanely evil nature of this regime.

Anonymous Noah B. February 08, 2013 5:13 PM  

"People sue to work at Walmart for minimum wage."

No. They sue Walmart to get a juicy settlement.

Blogger Wagnerian February 08, 2013 5:14 PM  

I pray that Dorner does not hole up in a school. These brave officers might emulate the FBI at Waco and burn everybody to death in order to "save the children."

Blogger James Dixon February 08, 2013 5:15 PM  

> You are now living in the post-1865 America.

Well, some of us are. Strange how many Confederate battle flags I see though.

Anonymous Gx1080 February 08, 2013 5:19 PM  

Christ. Look, history has shown over and over again that the US Goverment isn't cold-blooded enough to handle 4th Gen warfare.

Even the dweebs on Barry's war team know it. That's why they let other NATO countries handle it and shower Afghanistan with drone missiles. I don't see such solutions being as easily appliable on US's soil.

Anonymous Porky February 08, 2013 5:20 PM  

dh is ignoring the power of public opinion.

The US govt. kicked the taliban's butts 30,000 to 2000. But for some reason we are waving the white flag and turning tail. Why?

Because a govt. that kills murderous a-holes on the other side of the world is not very popular. A govt that fires on it's own is even less popular. A govt. that really wants to take out 10 million citizens better do it quickly and with extreme prejudice.


Anonymous Anonymous February 08, 2013 5:21 PM  

Yes, sometimes the rebels win, but most of the time, the rebels lose. That's the lesson of history.--dh

"All history is a revolt against the undifferentiated unity of being."

There, fixed it for ya. ;^)

MALTHUS

Anonymous Daniel February 08, 2013 5:23 PM  

I pray that Dorner does not hole up in a school. These brave officers might emulate the FBI at Waco and burn everybody to death in order to "save the children."

Come on Wagnerian. The State already has a reason to unilaterally burn down a school. They are very principled and passionate about their desire for greater fire safety laws in this country.

Anonymous Darth Toolpodicus February 08, 2013 5:24 PM  

I think the .gov would be more willing to do a better job of "handling" 4G warfare here...but that the people here are also a lot better at executing it. If it comes to that, we will put on a Clinic for the rest of the World in what 4G should look like: Not for the faint of heart.

Anonymous Alexander February 08, 2013 5:24 PM  

dh,

Pick any war in history and you'll find a time when by your metric, if they weren't already fighting they were never going to fight.

Blogger TontoBubbaGoldstein February 08, 2013 5:24 PM  

I think many equate killing civilians with cowardice. Yet the same people would never call Doolittle's Raiders, the bombers of Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden etc cowards. ( Neither would I)
Carlos Hathcock and that Kyle sniper in Texas----not cowards. (The guy that shot him in the back.......potentially).
Pickett's chargers---not cowards.
Kamikazes, suicide bombers etc--- not even close to cowards.
Cowards refuse to stand up and take responsibility for their actions and beliefs. Dorner and Atta are/were willing to die for their cause. Misguided? Evil? F**ked up? Probably all. But not cowards.

Anonymous Noah B. February 08, 2013 5:24 PM  

"You are now living in the post-1865 America."

Sic transit gloria, my dear statist. Today is not yesterday.

Anonymous Zion's Paladin February 08, 2013 5:29 PM  

This is true enough. You are incorrect about 1775. Lexington & Concord lead the next day to the Seige of Boston, which was the Revolutionary War proper. Within 2 days, militia had blocked off resupply of the British Forces, the Continental Congress had met and started formulating the Continental Army. Within two weeks, Benedict Arnold had marched on Fort Ticonderoga. Within two months, General Washington arrived with his Army to re-inforce Boston and build the blockade.

Lexington & Concord must certainly was, as VP Biden would say, a big deal.


Point taken. When you force the military of the leading power of the day to retreat from what was a simple arms raid, it wouldn't be wise to not prepare for reprisal.

That said, the British government refused to back down, despite the colonists demonstrating that they were willing and able to fight them rather than submit to injustice.

Sorry, but the America of 1775 is gone. You are now living in the post-1865 America.

So? My point is that it is a huge mistake to think that there is no limit to how much abuse you can heap on a governed populace without reprisal. Plenty of regimes beside the British government though so and learned they were wrong the hard way.

It's also a mistake to think that the soft churchy Christians represent the whole Christian populace. Nate's one example of somebody who's ready to shoot back if necessary. I'm another.

Anonymous realmatt February 08, 2013 5:32 PM  

Please provide links to the stats on botched SWAT raids, if you have any.

I think we should make a list of these incidences as well as statistics related to subjects frequently discussed on this blog. I used to have a bookmark folder and subfolders with articles but that computer is long gone.

Anonymous zen0 February 08, 2013 5:37 PM  

Do civil servants still have offices in easily identifiable government buildings?

Anonymous VD February 08, 2013 5:38 PM  

This is pretty interesting.

Why? It's no secret that police make terrible soldiers. This is even codified into the rules of games like Advanced Squad Leader. Conversely, combat troops have historically mad very bad police, given their recon-by-fire tactics.

Blogger lars February 08, 2013 5:39 PM  

i wonder if a little perspective from a libertarian leaning cop would be appreciated?.......

Anonymous Noah B. February 08, 2013 5:41 PM  

@lars

As in, a cop who leans on libertarians backs when they're handcuffed on the ground? Or a cop who's actually a libertarian?

Blogger Nate February 08, 2013 5:46 PM  

"Most but not all. For everyone 1000 innocents, if they get 1 rebel, that's probably not a losing proposition."

This is the problem... You are forgetting that by killing those 1000 innocents... they are creating another 1000 or more rebels.

The math never works. You cannot put out a fire by smothering it with gasoline.

Anonymous zen0 February 08, 2013 5:46 PM  

realmatt said:

Please provide links to the stats on botched SWAT raids, if you have any.

http://www.cato.org/raidmap

search

swat raids gone wrong

Lots of stuff.

Don't bother showing Tad. He really does not want to know.

Anonymous Anonymous February 08, 2013 5:51 PM  

Dorner is a blip on the screen.

He has exposed the chickenshittedness of the LAPD, but not much more. He is a simple murderer who also once happened to be a cop.

Whoever said the cops are front-line and will scatter at the first shot of any real revolution, is right.

Dorner is not, by any means, the spark to said revolution. He is an angry black man pissed that he was fired for being the jerk he has amply proved himself to be, and nothing more.

When you hear of a drone shot down (or more than one), or an entire neighborhood that yanks out their A-15's and wipes out a whole swat team - then maybe the revolution will have begun.

1865 was merely a consolidation of what began in 1789. The Articles of Confederation were not deficient, they just prevented those who wanted power from having it. Our "revered" Constitution is nothing but a sham - the Bill of Rights had to be added to give Joe Citizen the impression he had some rights, and the Constitution has been prostituted so many times that it is nothing but a shadow.

Gramsci has won. Many do not even know who he is, but his "long march" is close to completion and not one in a hundred even know his name.

Texas is probably your best bet.

The Feds might gain a toe-hold in the cities (maybe), but if they wander off the plantation of the cities, they are toast. We country dwellers ain't taking this crap. We are locked and loaded, and the Feds do not want to go there.

In smaller towns, the local yokels will resign and take off their badges. They ain't gonna get shot to hell for the sake of a city council.

It will get ugly, but the Fed will not win.

jb

Anonymous bob k. mando February 08, 2013 6:05 PM  

i believe that this quip MAY be the perfect summation of the position of the LAPD:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vdBncCPMno&t=1m10s

Blogger lars February 08, 2013 6:05 PM  

i recently began to read this blog.... the "scalzi creeper/stupid slut event" made me laugh out loud and reading it felt like swimming in the ocean on a winter's day. not all a bad sensation. cold truth in the face from where i did not expect it. so, thank you, vox. and thank you, dread ilk. i have profitted from reading here.

just for the record, although i wear blue every day, i am not a jack boot idiot. i studied historiography and philosophy at a good college, as well as ancient greek language.

i have never shot, pepper-sprayed, or hit anyone with a baton. i have used my fists and wrestled more times than i remember, and i am not afraid to do so. i have been hurt on the job several times (sometimes taking months and surgeries to recover)... but EVERY time i have been hurt, it was BECAUSE i was trying NOT to hurt the idiot i was arresting.

look, i don't know what all of your collective experiences with police have been.... back when i was a long-haired, bearded student i had plenty of bad experiences with police, too.... but i am just one cop..... and i do my best to help and protect people. and there are thousands of better cops out there. better than me. i have caught gunpoint robbers in the act, and captured them unharmed. i have caught all manner of thieves and burglars. i have kicked in the door when auntie does not show up for christmas dinner and found her dead so that you didn't have to (more times than i can count)..... i have saved several lives with CPR as i almost always get there before the ambulance..... look, i could go on and on and on...... there is a sense in which being a cop is living "real life" like few others can live it.

granted, i am an anomoly as a cop with a philosophical bent.... but the guys i work with are really pretty good guys. better than any other group of guys i have worked with. and we see tragedies on a weekly basis that most people only see once or twice in a lifetime.

one person posted about an idiot cop bragging about how he was one cop controlling 150,000 people. if that cop was not making a joke than he was an idiot. but the whole idea of english and western police began with robert peel..... and the whole idea is that the police CANNOT possibly control the citizenry, and that police should not even try to do so. peel introduced a new way of thinking about law and order.... so that the citizens would not be bullied and massacred by some random nobleman's men-at-arms.

peel's tradition is not without flaw, and i am open to discussion and criticism. and i really do have respect for this site, and the dread ilk, and what goes on here...... but please, do not paint police with too broad of a brush. i think many of you have really no idea what it is like to do what police do, or even what we do.

Blogger Nate February 08, 2013 6:10 PM  

Lars

4 guys from my high school class turn out to be cops... 3 of them were huge bullies... one was severely bullied.

make of that what you will. I know I do.

Anonymous zen0 February 08, 2013 6:11 PM  

lars said: but please, do not paint police with too broad of a brush. i think many of you have really no idea what it is like to do what police do, or even what we do.

What's your take on the paramilitarization of police forces ala swat teams? Or police that attack citizens for legally taking pictures of their activities?

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