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Friday, February 08, 2013

Of courage and cowardice

The police appear to have a very self-serving definition of "cowardice":
The fired LAPD officer suspected of terrorizing Southern California in a bloody rampage opened fire on two Riverside police officers with a rifle in a "cowardly ambush" early Thursday morning, Riverside police Chief Sergio Diaz told reporters at a morning news conference.  
Let me get this straight.  We're supposed to believe that a one-man war against the entire LAPD is cowardly, whereas those armed and armored SWAT teams that break in without warning and not infrequently shoot pets and unarmed people are courageous?  Christopher Dorner may be foolish.  He may be evil.  He may be in the wrong.  But the one thing he quite clearly is not is "cowardly".  What on Earth is such a stupid and obviously false declaration supposed to do, dissuade anyone tempted to follow Dorner's example?

These are indeed Orwellian times.  It's rather like reading Robin Hood and being expected to cheer for the Sheriff of Nottingham.  Here is a hint for the police: if you're wearing black armor, killing innocent animals, lying about your actions, and on top of it all, you outnumber the other guy several thousand to one, you're the bad guy.

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420 Comments:

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Blogger Giraffe February 08, 2013 6:14 PM  

Yes, but how many dogs have you shot, Lars?

Anonymous Scintan February 08, 2013 6:14 PM  

peel's tradition is not without flaw, and i am open to discussion and criticism. and i really do have respect for this site, and the dread ilk, and what goes on here...... but please, do not paint police with too broad of a brush. i think many of you have really no idea what it is like to do what police do, or even what we do.

In any large group, you will have exceptions. That's understood here, and universality isn't literally believed. However, ask yourself whether or not you are in the minority, and then pay attention to what your fellow officers do, both on and off duty. I think you'll find that to be interesting, especially if you're working in any sizeable city.

Blogger lars February 08, 2013 6:19 PM  

Nate.... i have heard the "bullied/bully" idea before. i will not deny that there is some truth to that. but it is from universal. i was neither bullied nor a bully, and i think the same is true for most of the guys i work with.

how much should any person make of your anecdotal experience with four people? again, i am not denying some validity to what you say, especially in big city and red neck police departments.

Blogger lars February 08, 2013 6:20 PM  

zeno0...... what is my take on police attacking citizens for legally taking pictures of their activities? easy. those police should be arrested.

Blogger lars February 08, 2013 6:22 PM  

giraffe, you made me laugh. never a dog. many, many bambi. even bear.

Anonymous Daniel February 08, 2013 6:25 PM  

Lars, I'll take it one further. I believe that the majority of police officers that I know are good men. But a) police work is not a democracy and b) good men possessing heavy arms as agents of the State don't have the autonomy to maintain a hardline good. After all, they are no longer good men, but agents of the state.

There's no getting around this. I believe that the majority of elementary school teachers in my district are good people (somewhat below average intelligence, but that's a different story), but the school, as an agent of the government, organizes those good people (and the few bad) into a structure that masses children to prepare them for work in a 19th century factory.

It is madness. Good police do not make a good police force. A good police force is volunteer or privately paid and only armed as well as the regular citizen, as free men, not agents of the state.

Anonymous Noah B. February 08, 2013 6:25 PM  

Ever arrested anyone for drug possession?

Blogger lars February 08, 2013 6:27 PM  

and zeno0, yes, i share your concerns about some of the paramilitarization of police SWAT teams.

Blogger Giraffe February 08, 2013 6:27 PM  

My ex brother in law would have made the perfect cop. He's a narcissist, lazy, thinks he's smart, and wanted the power trip. He went to school for it, but the cops didn't hire him. We aren't that hard up I guess.

The cops around here aren't too bad, we just have twice as many as are needed. Excepting the one that was caught selling drugs, of course.

many, many bambi. even bear.

My co-worker had a highway patrol officer hand him his gun because he couldn't pull the trigger on a deer that was hit by a car.

Anonymous VD February 08, 2013 6:29 PM  

peel's tradition is not without flaw, and i am open to discussion and criticism. and i really do have respect for this site, and the dread ilk, and what goes on here...... but please, do not paint police with too broad of a brush. i think many of you have really no idea what it is like to do what police do, or even what we do.

Lars, we know there are good cops out there. I'm friends with several policemen; there are two in my current weightroom and there was a cop friend at my wedding. But they recognize, as you probably do, how policing has changed from "keeping the peace" to "law enforcement" and the quasi-militarization of the urban SWAT teams. And I'm sure you're familiar with the saying that you can't have a police state without the police.

The problem is that despite there being good men in the various police forces, we no longer trust them as a collective in the way that our parents did. I've seen the good that cops do, I've even experienced it while getting arrested, but I see the bad side too. It's more than just a few bad apples, it is systematic corruption that reaches all the way from the street beat to the appeals court judges. It's nothing personal.

I have two questions for you. Leaving your own position OUT of it, what percentage of your fellow officers do you believe would obey an order to engage in the mass confiscation of firearms. And do you belong to an urban/suburban department or a rural one?

Blogger lars February 08, 2013 6:33 PM  

okay, the comments are coming pretty fast.....

scintan, i appreciate your suggestion that i ask myself if i am in the minority. gee, i never thought of that before. ))))) . i am not trying to be petty, but believe me, my buddies at work would not let me do otherwise. hence i am dubbed "the most interesting man in the world", by my sergeants.

Blogger lars February 08, 2013 6:38 PM  

Noah B, yes i have arrested people for possessing and/or selling ilegal narcotics. and this list of prisoners includes government officials, not just hood rats. the drug war debate is one that i try to pay attention to. i have mixed feelings. i think that the penalties are perhaps over criminilized. i must think more on this.

Blogger lars February 08, 2013 6:42 PM  

Vox, the answer to your second question: i am an officer in an urban/suburban area. but nationally, it is a unique area in that the police forces tend to be very small and very local. there are few "regional" or even "county" police forces. and when i took this job years ago, this "local" element was a selling point for me. i like the local accountability and involvement.

Blogger Giraffe February 08, 2013 6:43 PM  

Most of us here [those of us regulars at the blog are known as The Dread Ilk] are in favor of legalizing drugs. People want them, and the laws against them aren't stopping them from getting them. Legalizing them will cause the price to fall to nonprofitable levels for gangs. Supposedly 20,000 people were killed in Mexico as an unintended consequence of our war on some drugs. Much of your own workload would be reduced. Benefits all around.

Of course people will screw themselves up with drugs. But they're gonna do that anyway.

Blogger lars February 08, 2013 6:45 PM  

and your first question, vox....

we have actually discussed this at my department, informally. i remember having a debate a month or so ago with some of the detectives. the gist of the debate was this: none of my fellow officers thought that gun confiscation by the government was feasible, or even possible, because none of us would carry out such an order.

Anonymous bw February 08, 2013 6:46 PM  

i think many of you have really no idea what it is like to do what police do, or even what we do.

I can't even see my screen for all the fucking tears.

Blogger lars February 08, 2013 6:48 PM  

and regarding police confiscation of guns..... i was the lone "looney conspiracy guy" who was pointing out that the government had ALREADY confiscated guns in many cities. so, there is some denial on the part of my buddies. but they say that they would not participate in such orders. and even state-wide trainers are often heard saying the same things. of course, when the rubber meets the road.... that is a different issue, and i do not know the answer to that question.

Blogger lars February 08, 2013 6:49 PM  

bw, i do not want or value your tears.

Blogger Rantor February 08, 2013 6:51 PM  

Lars, thanks for your service. In the current California manhunt cops shot at a blue pick up because it might have been the bad guys. Two non-criminal women injured. I understand being excited about chasing a cop killer, but shooting at an unidentifed target is irresponsible and should be a criminal act. I doubt these policemen will face more than a few days of desk duty while awaiting the investigation that will possibly exonerate them of wrong doing. No justice in that.

Admittedly policemen are just the pointy end of our corrupt government. We need more that are willing to stand up for the people than those who mindlessly enforce bullshit laws, steal people's guns, and spend several days a month as revenues.

Anonymous Anonymous February 08, 2013 6:51 PM  

I get the point how one man can do alot of damage but if you read his manifesto, he sounds alot like Jim Carey in the movie "The Cable Guy". So I guess he will be the 1st Pop Culture Nut Case that went to far. His whole life spent in front of a TV and he could not handle reality...Now go back to the urban warfare fantasies.

MC

Anonymous Anonymous February 08, 2013 6:52 PM  

Lars -

Tthere is not a brush too broad with which to paint cops. Mu uncle was also a cop in a major city with a huge (dare I say black?) criminal population.

In 32 years he never unholstered his weapon. In his day, "Protect and Serve" meant the citizens. No longer. Cops fill the city coffers nowadays.

They protect and serve either their chief or their city or town. If you gee pulled over, cops are bristling with body armor and tasers and guns. Where I live, cops are often judge, jury and executioner at times.

That is not in your job description.

You guys signed on to protect the rest of us from the "bad guys" right? Yet you spend most of your time harassing motorists and making life absolutely miserable for those who do not meet your desires. You usually respond to a chief and a judge who gets paid by the tickets you write.

What a racket. The Mafia is jealous.

Quit whining. We don't like cops.

You were once worthy of respect. Not any more. You a now a mere slave to the state, and an enemy to the citizenry. Sorry . . . you guys earned it.

jb



Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother February 08, 2013 6:57 PM  

NACALT!

Lars decrees it!

Anonymous VD February 08, 2013 6:59 PM  

we have actually discussed this at my department, informally. i remember having a debate a month or so ago with some of the detectives. the gist of the debate was this: none of my fellow officers thought that gun confiscation by the government was feasible, or even possible, because none of us would carry out such an order.

Well, that's moderately surprising, but encouraging. And I agree, one never knows what one will do until the choice arrives. But still.

Quit whining. We don't like cops. You were once worthy of respect. Not any more. You a now a mere slave to the state, and an enemy to the citizenry. Sorry . . . you guys earned it.

Be civil, jb. Just as you can't judge the -ism by the -ist, you can't judge the policeman by the badge. For good or ill.

Blogger lars February 08, 2013 7:00 PM  

giraffe, i understand that the legalization of drugs is logical in the framework of libertarianism. and, i think i said earlier, i have mixed feelings on this. certainly the penalties are "over-crminialized". i agree on this point, at least. years ago, where i work, we used to be able to write a small fine from a "local ordinance" for juveniles with a bit of weed on them. can't do that anymore. now it is a criminal matter. i don't like that.

how about a bit of honesty on my part? i have never smoked marijuana or done any ilegal drugs. i am probably the only cop in my department of whom that is true. my polygraph bears this out, much to the surprise of the polygrapher (who begged me just to admit my drug use so that i would pass the test and be hired). but i never did drugs. i did not want to do drugs because i was an athlete, and i liked to read, and i thought drugs would not help those interests of mine.

but if marijuana was legal? would i have tried it? maybe. probably. i probably wouldn't have liked it as much as running marathons or boxing... but it may have been a distraction for a while.

abortion? it is pretty clear that many more people have abortions because it is legal. i realize that you must unpack the differences between the drugs and abortion.

Anonymous kh123 February 08, 2013 7:04 PM  

"Yet you spend most of your time harassing motorists and making life absolutely miserable for those who do not meet your desires. You usually respond to a chief and a judge who gets paid by the tickets you write."

General consensus for most folks.

Depending on where one drives daily, it shouldn't have the additional burden of having to keep on one's toes for being pulled over by stealthily-placed highway patrols on any one of a myriad of minor infractions. Having enough illegal motorists who seem to evade the dragnet (and who interestingly never seem to have to be insured or even registered, and almost never have speed traps set up in their neck of the woods) driving alongside in the daily commute is bad enough.

It's been brought up before that if there were no financial incentive to pull people over (but rather simply credits or points against one's license), most law enforcement would give up the whole trap game.

Blogger lars February 08, 2013 7:07 PM  

rantor, i agree 100 percent with your rant. the behavior of the LAPD in this instance (and many others) is criminal and embarassing and immoral. and i agree that it is a challenge to keep the system accountable, and the officers within the system.

Anonymous bw February 08, 2013 7:10 PM  

bw, i do not want or value your tears.

I just couldn't help it. I'm still shaken.
It was all of that martyr and victim talk.
Breaks my heart.

Blogger lars February 08, 2013 7:11 PM  

just for the record.... where i work, the chief and the judges hate each other, but neither get paid by traffic citations. furthermore, citation and arrest quotas are illegal by state law. i write very few traffic citations (usually reserved only for behavior that seems extremely rude and/or dangerous) and i have NEVER been told i need to write more citations.

Blogger Bogey February 08, 2013 7:11 PM  

What Rantor is referring to:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/tessastuart/two-mistakenly-shot-during-frantic-lapd-during-manhunt

That was the most cowardly action I've heard about during this whole ordeal. They didn't even verify who they were shooting at.

"Tragically, we believe that this was a case of mistaken identity by the officers," Beck said Thursday."
No shit

"He knows what he's doing — we trained him."
That's actually a relief. Expect a Stormtrooper esque volley from him. Just stay calm and if you have a gun and are somewhat competent with it, you can probably take him out.

Blogger lars February 08, 2013 7:15 PM  

bw, i don't know you. i don't know your life. therefor i am not going to judge you. neither am i going to value you. i do not consider myself a martyr or a victim. but the fact is that i see death and violence on a daily basis. and i break up fights and try to protect people. how many times a week do you this? i am not asking for a thank you. i am not asking you to like me. i am just pointing out the obvious.

Anonymous George of the Hole February 08, 2013 7:19 PM  

none of my fellow officers thought that gun confiscation by the government was feasible, or even possible, because none of us would carry out such an order.

And yet, you will. Trust me, you will not be the first generation to not repeat history.

Blogger lars February 08, 2013 7:22 PM  

bogey, you are absolutely correct about the cowardice of those officers. i have nothing more to say about that, other than that bad officers should be accountable and punished. and police forces need to take a good, hard look at their training and management when such horrific behavior shows itself.

Anonymous Anonymous February 08, 2013 7:32 PM  

Same discrepancy of force exists between our "brave" military and the people they push around wherever we go. Right now it's Afghanistan. Afghans armed only with small weaponry are bravely resisting the US, armed to the teeth with helicopters, drones, artillery, etc. It's the Taliban who have the guts. Americans are just cowards and mostly just fight third world tribesmen.

Blogger Bogey February 08, 2013 7:34 PM  

Thanks Lars, no need for apologies (not saying you are, but just in case) most of the ilk is smart enough to know there are good cops and dumb cops.

Anonymous Anonymous February 08, 2013 7:35 PM  

VD -

Who do cops "protect and serve?

Citizens, or the coffers of the town or city?

Be civil? Cops are rarely civil.
]
Just last night I saw a free citizen pulled over by an employee of the state - local. His infraction?

The cop, 1500 yards behind, had the omniscience to determine the poor guy had not turned on his turn signal 90 feet before the intersection.

Ticket, baby.

Vox - I agree to this degree - a cop is not merely a badge - they are individuals. Bur they, like welfare recipients, make their very living off the state - from fines extracted/extorted from citizens.

The average traffic stop is little but a shakedown - doing 45 in a 40 zone. Shit, you got something better to do? Don't ask a cop that - he can slap you with do much shit you can spend your savings on a lawyer trying to get matters squared, if ever.

Yes, you can judge a cop by the badge, Vox. Now, and ever-increasingly more, folks will realize cops as their enemy. The Feds will sacrifice the cops as front-line troops in their war on us.

I am being civil . . . and I know the reality out here as well.

jb

Anonymous zen0 February 08, 2013 7:36 PM  

lars said:

other than that bad officers should be accountable and punished.

I am sure most agree, but the reality seems to be otherwise, and citizens find it hard to distinguish between getting killed because of bad training and lack of accontability in the system or getting killed by a psychopath.

Hence, they tend to fear and distrust cops and psychopaths equally, although there is a special frustration toward cops because they are expected to be better than psychopaths.

Anonymous Noah B. February 08, 2013 7:37 PM  

Lars, I do think that most cops are good people, and I think that most of them understand on some level that much of what they do involves screwing people over. Human experience shows that good people can't go around hurting innocents without their own actions coming back to torment them. The first sign of this torment is the twisted rationalizations that they develop to justify their own actions. You and most of your coworkers -- at least, the ones who aren't sociopaths -- probably try to convince yourselves that you're actually helping the people you arrest for victimless crimes, that you're keeping society from destroying itself, that drug offenders are the ones committing robberies and burglaries, or something like that.

In the end it's all just bullshit you think up to make yourself feel better, and I doubt that a good person is ever able to fully convince himself that arresting and ticketing people for victimless crimes is really good and justifiable. So day by dear, year by year, the job eats away at your very soul. You grow to despise yourself a little more each day without even knowing why. Before long, all that's left is a hollowed out shell of the good man that once was, all for the sake of carrying out the whims of politicians, many of whom are long since dead.

Or maybe it's just my imagination running wild.

Blogger lars February 08, 2013 7:37 PM  

years ago i was involved in the military. i was skeptical of bush the elder's war in iraq. but when clinton was elected, i saw the writing on the wall..... more international meddling and death for no good reason. i was happy to be free from the military then. clinton's juvenile military adventures confirmed my suspcion and i was glad to be free from being a part of them. then comes bush the younger, with even greater irresponsible, nonsensical wars. and now obama... and there is no end to it all...... and yes, i share the concerns that many of you here have about the encroaching federal (and local!!!) governments. the most ridiculous statement of this past election was when people said that the tyranny of romneycare was ok, even if obamacare wasn't, just because romneycare was only tyranny on the state level.

my point in all this is that i became extremely suspicious of government force and coercion. and i say this, even as an agent of that power.

i wanted to be a pacifist. i became a social worker. and i was surprised when i had to fight a few times in my work.... to protect girls who were being assaulted by men.

and that led to my decision to be a police officer. i did not share this little history to be melodramatic, or to gain sympathy, but just so you all understand what motivations, both emotional and intellectual, can lead to working as a police officer.

Anonymous VD February 08, 2013 7:40 PM  

Be civil? Cops are rarely civil.

They will be on this blog. As will you. If you want to go spit on the cops in your town, feel free. But if Lars doesn't merit any special consideration here, neither does he merit being attacked on the sole basis of his occupation.

See Rule 1.

Blogger lars February 08, 2013 7:44 PM  

Noah B., i appreciate what you wrote. really. and don't think that i have not had many thoughts about the same thing.

i do not know how many more years i will put into police work..... and this is for some of the very reasons you pointed out.

but a question still remains: do you want only the worst of people to work as police officers? there is an old chinese saying: as bad iron is used to make nails, so bad men are used to make soldiers. i hope that we aspire to something better than that, here.

all that being said, i realize the weakness of my argument is that i did not want to be "a good soldier in an army fighting an evil war".

Anonymous Stilicho February 08, 2013 7:52 PM  

Delta has less than half that. Like less than 1000.

Fewer.

Blogger lars February 08, 2013 7:55 PM  

stg58/Animal Mother,

NACALT? that is "not all conservatives are like that"? ))))

i don't really know that i wish to defend conservatives or label myself as one. please, do not burden me with that.

Blogger lars February 08, 2013 7:56 PM  

yeah.... i guess "C" can be "cop", too..... and i cannot hide from that label, right now......

Anonymous Brutha named Cheddarman February 08, 2013 8:04 PM  

As a militant black man,

I would like to point out to Civilservant that a complex society such as ours is very easy to break. Clever and determined individuals could easily attack a number of citical and sensitive electrical power nodes in this country, with near or complete impunity.

I have never undertaken a systematic study of the vulnerabilities of the U.S. power grid to determined attackers, and most likely, neither have you.

If we did, however, I think both of us would be surprised how easily this country could be paralyzed by a relative handful of individuals.

Anonymous Shutup, Tad February 08, 2013 8:06 PM  

For all you numskulls hatin on lars, just think how way better a thread it is with lars and not Tad, and then shut up.

Anonymous Anonymous February 08, 2013 8:07 PM  

Vox -

I am not "spitting" (as you say) on cops per se. But I have have never seen a single difference among them as a group.

Lars merits "special consideration" only because he "gets it." I do not know if you have read Billy Beck's site, but he is as rational a thinker as are you, and he understands that the first threat to one's freedom is the policeman there to "protect and serve."

Who do they "protect and serve?"

You can go here - http://www.policemisconduct.net and watch the daily parade parade of "officers" who step WAY over the line.

I have one policeman in the fam, and one who is a dear friend, and they will say exactly what I am saying, Vox.

I am not trying to be contrary . . . I live out here and must deal with reality.

jb

Anonymous dh February 08, 2013 8:07 PM  

This is the problem... You are forgetting that by killing those 1000 innocents... they are creating another 1000 or more rebels.

The math never works. You cannot put out a fire by smothering it with gasoline.


Really?

This is ahistorical. The government almost always wins. You never even read about most of the times the government wins.

When you read Roman history, everyone focuses on the decline and fall. What's missed are the countless - dozens or hundreds - of insignificant people who were crushed, and stomped, by a government not half as bent on survival as this one.

Blogger Nate February 08, 2013 8:12 PM  

Lars
Generally speaking I regard police officers as a threat until proven otherwise. I handle them in interactions the way one may handle a snake. It may not bite you the first ten times you handle it... but if the 11? Be as careful as possible... and know you may get bit anyway. That is the way I see it.

I make it a point to get to know all the local cops and deputies personally. I see them deliberately in social situations and throw them work in their side jobs frequently. If a cop's family has a family business... you can bet I spent some money there. This is not to fool myself into thinking they may think of me as one of them... but more to facilitation that one split second of hesitation... should it come to that.

For the record I trust the deputies a ton more than the city cops.... good guys for the most part. The only real problem child even amongst the city cops is the chick... and she is a royal bitch on wheels. The boys all joke about how aggressive she is with everyone... as long as she has back up close by. and she won't even get out of her car for a traffic stop without another cruiser there.

Anonymous dh February 08, 2013 8:15 PM  

Regarding number of delta/seals. I believe the exact number is classified, but the Joint Special Operations Command, which is the C&C for all special operations forces, is routinely cited as 15k soliders and 10k support/mechanics/administration.

I had never seen the numbers for SEALS/Delta, but I suppose Green Berets, Rangers, et all much be included in those numbers, which makes sense.

Blogger Nate February 08, 2013 8:15 PM  

" by a government not half as bent on survival as this one."

The fact that you can describe Rome this way indicates that you are even more ignorant of history than you are of 4Gen warfare.

Anonymous civilServant February 08, 2013 8:16 PM  

I would like to point out to Civilservant that a complex society such as ours is very easy to break. Clever and determined individuals could easily attack a number of citical and sensitive electrical power nodes in this country, with near or complete impunity.

I have never undertaken a systematic study of the vulnerabilities of the U.S. power grid to determined attackers, and most likely, neither have you.

If we did, however, I think both of us would be surprised how easily this country could be paralyzed by a relative handful of individuals.


Thirty-seven.

Anonymous bob k. mando February 08, 2013 8:16 PM  

lars February 08, 2013 7:00 PM
giraffe, i understand that the legalization of drugs is logical in the framework of libertarianism. and, i think i said earlier, i have mixed feelings on this.




it's not a question of 'logic' or 'feelings'. it's a question of constitutional law.

U.S. Constitutional law.

alcohol was not outlawed until 1920 ... and a Constitutional amendment was required to do it.

Prohibition lasted until the end of 1933 when the 21st amendment was passed in order to repeal the 18th.

knowing these facts, knowing the notorious AND MISERABLE FAILURE that Prohibition actually was IN PRACTICE, how do you justify the *clearly unconstitutional* enforcement of laws against various drugs other than alcohol?

you say that the police you know would refuse an order to disarm the gen-pop, yet you, *Lars*, enforce blatantly unconstitutional law every day.

i will grant you, i have known some good cops. i even complimented one state trooper on his courtesy, even as he wrote me a traffic ticket. this does not detract one whit from the fact that new video is posted almost daily about police abuse or confiscation of recording equipment. you CANNOT be oblivious to this.

Blogger lars February 08, 2013 8:25 PM  

Nate, maybe i shouldn't mention this story, but here goes...... and i have known some excellent female cops, with whom i was proud to work..... nevertheless...... one night as i worked, a female officer drove for miles and miles trying to find an audible alarm. she was concerned that a building was being broken into, and i must credit her work ethic. but no one else could hear the alarm, no matter how close to her they drove..... and she drove for miles, for an hour or so..... until the sergeant drove up to her and turned off her siren. it was on low volume and gently whining through her radio. sadly, a true story. as they say, you can't make this stuff up.....

Anonymous bw February 08, 2013 8:30 PM  

i do not consider myself a martyr or a victim lars

You made an arrogant, baseless assumption. You are still doing it, over a job you are very well compensated for as it relates to private sector work, and considering it is supposedly a "service", and that you ultimately freely choose to hold. Your choice.
You floated the psyche. I called it out. Again:

i think many of you have really no idea what it is like to do what police do, or even what we do.

This is projection. You have no way of knowing whether this claim is true. Most here see it for what it is.

Anonymous nick digger February 08, 2013 8:31 PM  

"What on Earth is such a stupid and obviously false declaration supposed to do, dissuade anyone tempted to follow Dorner's example?"

Primarily, they are crying like bitches about being targeted. The dick doesn't feel too good when it swings the other way, does it boys? A perfect pot/kettle example, as cops are some of the biggest cowards around, who will not approach any situation without knowing they have a tremendous tactical advantage.

Secondarily, it's the cheap old trick cops use in every press release: Insult the fugitive in hopes of pissing him off and drawing him out. More out of habit than anything, though; he's already published his side of the story, so it's not like he's going to answer any allegations/taunts via twitterface.

Blogger Nate February 08, 2013 8:38 PM  

Ok Lars... my turn to share.

I lived in rural TN for a time... and like I say... I make friends with deputies. Well a few of them had a contracting business... doing electrical and painting work on the side. I hired them to pain my house. After a six pack while they were doing the painting they told me about a local pedorast.

So the gym teacher at the local county elementary school had been accused of buggering a few of the boys at the school. The deputies had kids there. Dig? Not cool.

When it came time to go to his house to get him... they played a game of chance to figure who'd get to bring him in. The guy that won called his wife about 8pm... asked to speak to him. She said he wasn't there and asked what it was about. He said nothing... just a simple traffic thing. No big deal.

unbeknownst to her... the deputies have already decided that he was going to suffer a shooting while he tried to flee. Turns out there is a big Wildlife Management Area real near there... perfect place.

5AM the next morning the dude shows up at the sheriffs office with a lawyer. Plans foiled. Far as I know to this day they still don't know how he found out about the investigation.

Deputies were pissed for weeks that they didn't get to kill the SOB.

S'ok.


The guards at the prison did.


That... is how it goes in rural Tennessee. I don't think rural Alabama would be much different.

Anonymous Blue Heaven February 08, 2013 8:44 PM  

CHICAGO (CBS) — Contract demands by Chicago police officers include much higher pay and something you might not have imagined.
Chicago police are reportedly proposing in negotiations that their pay increase by 12 percent over two years.
The union also wants officers to get extra money because they are required to live in the city.
According to the Chicago Sun-Times, the union is proposing a residency stipend of $3,000 per officer.
Police also want to pay less for their health insurance and get more money for their uniform allowance.
The Sun-Times reports, officers also want to reach the top of the pay scale after 20 years, rather than the current 25 years.
Top pay for a patrol officer is $86,000 a year.

Anonymous AlteredFate February 08, 2013 8:46 PM  

Here is a very interesting post on the subject of good cops vs. bad cops and how they should distinguish themselves in the event SHTF. I haven't explored this man's site too much but he seems like he knows what he is talking about.

Also, take a look at his "Last word on the 'AR sucks balls' debate". Whoever said they would put their FN FAL up against an the AR platform...here is your chance to put your money where your mouth is.

http://mountainguerrilla.wordpress.com/2013/01/31/a-suggestion-to-oathkeepers/

Blogger lars February 08, 2013 8:52 PM  

bw, i really do not know how to respond to you. there are two issues here. one is the "existential nature" of any work, and the other is the base reality of that work. there is an exestential reality to every occupation and vocation. if you are a computer programmer, than i will freely admit that i cannot relate to what you do in an existential manner. i have no idea what you do. but i do not get the feeling that the dread ilk is populated by police officers and other emergency workers. and the fact is that i and my colleagues deal with much violence and death and deceipt on a regular, on a daily basis. that is not true of most professions. perhaps that is true of you, i just don't know, do i?

but i stand by what i said, and i do not think you have "called out" anything. what does the volunteer nature of my work or my compensation have to do with anything?

perhaps i should be more careful in how i frame this...... i have read many people on this site talk about how "when seconds count, police are minutes away". and you know what? i agree. and i completely support 2nd ammendmant rights..... but here is the thing.... i have read many people talk here about how police only arrive after the fact and clean up the mess...... and that just is not true. many times we arrive on scene and "actually protect" people. i can tell you a true story of kicking in a door and finding a bloody heap on the floor, with a man strangling a woman beneath him, and then having to fight and handcuff the man, to save the girl. and i could tell you MANY stories like this one, all true. just because the story has dramatic elements to it, does not make the story or me melodramatic. and the fact is, that if people on this site do not realize that we police do this sort of thing on a routine basis, then these people simply do not know what we do. any "floating psyche" or drama is being imbued by your reading and not my writing.

Anonymous Porky February 08, 2013 8:54 PM  

Sister was driving in Miami. Cop makes an illegal u-turn and smashes into her. Female cop says it was sis's fault. Sis says no it's not. 5 squad cars show up at the scene. Yahoos start pressuring her to admit it was her fault. She's not cowering. They start to hint at how difficult it could be for her if she doesn't admit to the crime. Getting in her face. Blocking her exit. Chesting up to her. Etc. Reporter happens to show up and sis calls him over. Starts talking to reporter, asking for badge numbers, names, etc. Tough guys get into their cars and drive.

Imagine if it was a dark unpopulated street and no reporter had shown up.

Blogger lars February 08, 2013 9:03 PM  

porky, i have known evil cops. i have watched them get arrested. i could tell you stories of evil cops that would make your story pale in comparison. but, yeah, when the story involves someone you care about, it sure feels different.

Blogger lars February 08, 2013 9:05 PM  

why am i here? i like you guys, and i thought you might like to know that at least one blue shirt has at least a few convictions in common with you. at the same time, it is clear that some people here will disagree that we have any common ground. fair enough.

Anonymous Anonymous February 08, 2013 9:06 PM  

Vox -

Your post to me disappeared, and my respone never did appear . . .

Blogger Nate February 08, 2013 9:08 PM  

The Thin Blue Line meets White Knight Syndrome.

Not good.

Blogger Nate February 08, 2013 9:10 PM  

Lars
I think at some point you have to accept the fact that you're going to get judged by your profession. It may be that all lawyers aren't liars and total evil scumsucking whorebags... but if you are a lawyer... you should probably accept that people are going to assume that about you until proven otherwise.

Cops have put themselves in the same boat with lawyers. That's just the way it is. And its not just cops... teachers are fast on their way to the same thing.

Blogger lars February 08, 2013 9:18 PM  

Nate, i completely understand and accept that i will be judged by my profession. Does understanding this mean that i should not attempt to have a discussion with you?

Anonymous Mr. Pea February 08, 2013 9:18 PM  

I stopped here:

lars says...

years ago, where i work, we used to be able to write a small fine from a "local ordinance" for juveniles with a bit of weed on them. can't do that anymore. now it is a criminal matter. i don't like that.

I wonder how many "i don't like that" it will take for you to say, "I don't like that so much I am quitting."

It is like saying... I don't like killing Jews, but I'll kill this many, and that's it.

How many people are you putting in jail that goes against your conscience?

How many Jews are you willing to kill before enough is enough?

Blogger Nate February 08, 2013 9:22 PM  

"Nate, i completely understand and accept that i will be judged by my profession. Does understanding this mean that i should not attempt to have a discussion with you?"

Not at all mate. I've enjoyed it and sincerely hope ya hang around. These folks will judge you until over time, they realize that their judgement doesn't match the observations... and then they will accept you.

Seen it dozens of times.

Blogger lars February 08, 2013 9:22 PM  

Mr. Pea, that is a fair question. but making a marijuana arrest is nothing like killing jews. there was a thread on this sort of comparison a few days ago i think........

and Nate, you would prefer a "thin blue line" with a "black knight syndrome"? applying the negative word "syndrome" with "white knight" is a bit premature in this discussion.

Anonymous Scintan February 08, 2013 9:23 PM  

Nate, i completely understand and accept that i will be judged by my profession. Does understanding this mean that i should not attempt to have a discussion with you?

By all means, stick around. Vox has made it abundantly clear that he does not want this place to be an echo chamber and that he likes different points of view. Ignore the clowns who can't get past your profession.

Anonymous Rex Little February 08, 2013 9:25 PM  

I pray that Dorner does not hole up in a school.

They've got the schools in Big Bear closed while they search for him.

Blogger Nate February 08, 2013 9:26 PM  

Lars
Remember "white knighting" is actually a defined concept here. Its when a man rushes to be the savior of a woman he perceives to be sweet and innocent and in danger.

I was suggesting that the behavior of the male officers in Porky's story was what we here call White Knighting...combined with the Thin Blue Line in-group / out-group police psychology we observe. Problematic.

Blogger lars February 08, 2013 9:26 PM  

scintan, thanks for the gesture. and don't worry about me taking offense. i came here to talk and learn, not just to try to push my views on people.

Blogger Nate February 08, 2013 9:28 PM  

How long ya been a cop Lars?

Blogger lars February 08, 2013 9:29 PM  

ah, Nate, thanks for the clarification. i missed that you were refering to Porky's story. comes from making dinner plans and reading at the same time, maybe. yes, i understand that white knighting is a defiend alpha game concept here. i am learning a little about your paradigms. and, yeah, Nate...... that is a very apt and intriguing observation.

Anonymous Porky February 08, 2013 9:31 PM  

i could tell you stories of evil cops...

Let's hear one. Since we're just sitting' 'round the campfire swapping' stories.

why am i here? i like you guys, and i thought you might like to know that at least one blue shirt has at least a few convictions in common with you.

Bad cops are not different from any other group to whom power is vested. Whether it's jews in the concentration camp or a US senator - if you offer somebody power it will tend to corrupt some of them.
Offer them LOTS of power and it will corrupt most of them.

Blogger lars February 08, 2013 9:31 PM  

i have had some discussion about which alpha game types most police tend to be. it has been interesting to me and a couple others i mentioned this site to to mull it over. incidentally, it is rare for an alpha to gain authority in police administrations, it seems.

i am a baby in the profession. i have been a cop about eight years.

Blogger Nate February 08, 2013 9:36 PM  

" incidentally, it is rare for an alpha to gain authority in police administrations, it seems."

Its rare for alpha's to gain authority in most organizations today. Large organizations of the modern world are set out to weed out alpha types in favor of the submissive behavior of deltas.

Alphas that you find running companies... generally started the company.

Blogger Nate February 08, 2013 9:38 PM  

I would submit that the myth of the Alpha Dom in the boardroom... Sub Bitch in the bedroom... is the direct result of promoting sub's to leadership positions that they do not deserve and do not want.

They know they are not actually leaders... they know they don't deserve what they have... so they get off on being dominated in the bedroom because they can finally be what they actually are.

Alphas are doms. Period.

Anonymous Mr. Pea February 08, 2013 9:38 PM  

lars says...

Mr. Pea, that is a fair question. but making a marijuana arrest is nothing like killing jews. there was a thread on this sort of comparison a few days ago i think........

Well lars, I don't know how old you are, but I have been on this planet long enough to see those "is like nothings" grow exponentially. And ya know... they didn't just start outright killing the Jews. The vilified them. Made monsters out of them... then they started killing them.

So maybe it is okay to go against your conscience just as long as you are only putting them in prison... but when they tell you to start rounding them up and putting a bullet in the back of their heads... you will get a real conscience?

Anonymous RedJack February 08, 2013 9:41 PM  

Late to the party.

The situation in LA is an interesting one on many levels. For one thing, the reaction of the local police in shooting two elderly women over the fear they are a single fat black man has made more than a few people start asking questions.

Lars, I do believe you. But the problem is that is all talk until "The balloon goes up". History has shown that most people in a uniform (cops, military, etc) will follow orders. If the one giving orders has the presence of authority, he gets obeyed.

And on this site, we tend not to trust cops. Some of that is the self selective nature of this site, but a lot of it comes from the fact that the population at large no longer views the police as part of the solution.

Not saying that the average person views them as the problem, but with things like the Chicago cops not going after burgarlies reinforces the view that you can not count on the police to protect or retrieve your property.,

Anonymous castricv February 08, 2013 9:42 PM  

Forgive me if this has been posted already (lot of cooments to go through), but doesn't this seem like the final perfect black flag op.? I mean the guy is a huge black guy with a racial complex who is military trained and going around the countryside now pulling a Jason Bourne of sorts and is determined to murder. He's packing a ton of rifles, etc.

They cannot get a budge on gun control with white kids, young crazy white males, and the one Asian dude shooting people, because these types of people seldom commit violent crime and hence no one is really that worried about them, so they figured maybe let's use a big black guywith skills to change all those gun-tottin' white peoples minds.

I hope you guys are seeing this...

Of course the cascading spree killings could just be a likely consequence of a populace who no longer see a bright tomorrow and have been told to blame everyone for their problems. Once you've crossed the line to where you don't care about your family name, you own life, and you are certainly not getting caught alive for prison, a Godless people are capable of many evil things.

Blogger Nate February 08, 2013 9:48 PM  

"And ya know... they didn't just start outright killing the Jews. The vilified them. Made monsters out of them... then they started killing them."

This is OT as all hell...

But why do you have to go straight to germany killing jews? and why do you take stalin's word on the death camps existence anyway?

Blogger lars February 08, 2013 9:50 PM  

Mr. Pea,

you know there is an odd dynamic in my discussion with you, here. because i agree with many criticisms that people here make regarding police, consitutionality, and government power in general. and so, i cannot make as flashy and stong an argument as some people might like to do. i am trying to work through some of these issues myself, and that is part of why i came here, and why i am talking with you all. i am not trying to set a debate trap or convince anyone of anything. i look forward to more discussion on the constitutionality of drug enforcement and issues such as this. at the same time, i still object that enforcing vice laws is even vaguely similar to rounding up jews and killing them. but i get your point about incrementalisms growing exponentially.

Anonymous Rod Freeman February 08, 2013 9:51 PM  

I've read most of his manifesto. The reason why he's evading capture isn't because he's a good shot, or some military guy or all prepped up. It's because he obviously knows every protocol, procedure and routine these cops have. He knows exactly where they will and won't go, when they change shifts, when he can move and when he has to hunker down.

More powerful than him running around shooting would be him publishing every detail of that and making it public.

Imagine an app on your phone that could tell you all of that info about the police force in the city you were living in, even to the point of hacking the GPS units in their cars and copters. That day is coming.

Once technology gets to the point where the state no longer has operational security, the whole thing will crumble rather quickly.

Anonymous castricv February 08, 2013 9:55 PM  

Rod -- seldom in history has technology advanced for the masses quicker than for the powerful. I can assure you once the tech is there to track police, the police will have a way around it at first and then stiff laws to try and prevent the people from having these powers. Orwellianism is nothing but inevitable momentum.

Anonymous Mr. Pea February 08, 2013 9:55 PM  

Actually Nate, your conspiracy theory that there were no death camps is OT... not that lars has a selective and metered conscience that allows him to do things that he claims pricks his conscience.

Anyhow.

Blogger lars February 08, 2013 9:56 PM  

i am off to dinner..... maybe i will check in later, and even add a campfire "evil cop" story. i can assure you, though, that protecting civil rights of citizens, including those we arrest, is something that my partners and i talk about CONSTANTLY as we work. and we try to live up to that ideal. i cannot speak for other police departments, and i would not work for a department where i did not feel that this is the case.

Anonymous Jack Amok February 08, 2013 9:59 PM  

Adapt tactics!!!!

Damn!! Why didn't the US military think of that!!!


Adapt faster, you goram maggots!!!

Anonymous Mr. Pea February 08, 2013 10:03 PM  

lars says...

i still object that enforcing vice laws is even vaguely similar to rounding up jews and killing them.

Fine then, you are comfortable, despite your conscience, of throwing them in jail.

In the meantime, incremental-ism on your conscience will work its way with you depending on how much you conscience burns.

I understand.

I'm not trying to get you to go away. I'm just blunt.

Anonymous Scintan February 08, 2013 10:05 PM  

So maybe it is okay to go against your conscience just as long as you are only putting them in prison... but when they tell you to start rounding them up and putting a bullet in the back of their heads... you will get a real conscience?

Is there something fundamentally wrong with you?

Anonymous Matthew February 08, 2013 10:05 PM  

Ah, so Mr. Pea is a Jew. Got it.

Blogger Nate February 08, 2013 10:09 PM  

"Actually Nate, your conspiracy theory that there were no death camps is OT... not that lars has a selective and metered conscience that allows him to do things that he claims pricks his conscience."

More people dothan don't.

besides... herb is a felony.. and hell more and more police departments are openly ignoring the ban on it. We're not talking about throwing people in the hooscow for years over it here.

Anonymous Alexander February 08, 2013 10:10 PM  

Rex,

That only matters if he's actually in Big Bear...

Based on everything so far, I wouldn't stake the farm on it.

Anonymous Jack Amok February 08, 2013 10:13 PM  

It will not happen all at once.


HA!!!

See, these sorts of plans are hatched by the same morons who can't do any better than straight line tax projections. They don't understand that people react to their plans and, ah, to borrow a phrase from an earlier comment, adapt tactics. Or more like, change strategy.

The plan won't call for it to all happen at once, and the first few cases will seem to follow the plan, but pretty soon the flyover folks will cotton onto what's going on and then it will most certainly happen all at once.

You civil servants may not all be as dumb as you sound, but you're no where near as smart as you think.

Anonymous Mr. Pea February 08, 2013 10:14 PM  

Scintan says...

Is there something fundamentally wrong with you?

What part don't you understand?

where i work, we used to be able to write a small fine from a "local ordinance" for juveniles with a bit of weed on them. can't do that anymore. now it is a criminal matter. i don't like that. - lars

If you don't get it, I suggest the problem is with you. Tyranny doesn't just happen over night... it creeps. And a soft conscience helps it along.

Anonymous Mr. Pea February 08, 2013 10:18 PM  

We're not talking about throwing people in the hooscow for years over it here. - Nate

Ah. I see. Just a little bit is okay.

Blogger Nate February 08, 2013 10:20 PM  

"Ah. I see. Just a little bit is okay."

I note you ignored the part where I pointed out that marijuana bans were being totally ignored in many places.

Anonymous Scintan February 08, 2013 10:23 PM  

What part don't you understand?

I understood the whole thing. You seem to think that one should only enforce the laws one personally approves of.


That's absolutely idiotic.

Blogger Nate February 08, 2013 10:24 PM  

And yes Mr Pea. Its a fallen world. Shit is wrong all over the place. We don't start blowing off people's heads over it.

Generally... its requires a combinations of really bad economic times... and a lot of anger... and an emotional flash point that unifies resistance. So far we only have 2 of those things.

Anonymous Mr. Pea February 08, 2013 10:25 PM  

I note you ignored the part where I pointed out that marijuana bans were being totally ignored in many places.

And many people ignored the Jews in many places too.

Jews were still killed... in many places.

I guess that makes it all okay now.

It's the Jew part that gets ya... huh Nate?

Anonymous The other skeptic February 08, 2013 10:25 PM  

Seems Jamie Foxx has heard about Christopher Dorner

Anonymous Mr. Pea February 08, 2013 10:27 PM  

And yes Mr Pea. Its a fallen world. Shit is wrong all over the place. We don't start blowing off people's heads over it.

Generally... its requires a combinations of really bad economic times... and a lot of anger... and an emotional flash point that unifies resistance. So far we only have 2 of those things.
- Nate

Huh? Get off the sauce. You're making things up now.

Anyhow, I'm going to eat.

As for lars... hope his eyes open.

Anonymous bob k. mando February 08, 2013 10:30 PM  

i concur that Lars is no 'problem' at all. not compared to some of the cretins we've gotten out of the Lavender Lagomorph wars.

we're at least having a discussion ( that is to say, he doesn't appear to spend every second trying to lie to us ) with him. that in itself is orders of magnitude better than Tad.

and he appears to be thinking about what he's doing and some of the things he's seen.

some of you spend way too much time spooging about how when it all hits the fan yer gonna git yerself some jack booted hides to hang on the wall.

there are a couple of considerations about saying things like that:
1 - the saying is an entirely different animal than the doing. i forget the exact number, but something like <10% of men who serve in combat will even intentionally point a gun at someone and pull the trigger. most just shoot wildly ... and uselessly. and that's after being trained for combat.

i'm not going to claim that i'm psychologically suited to killing people, i've never done it. i've participated in slaughtering and cleaning several times and i could do it again but it's nothing i enjoy so that doesn't really say anything one way or the other.

i will say that i've had a gun in my face. twice. and both times, the assailant got weirded out and went away without what he'd been looking for. i AM highly assymmetrical on a psychological basis ... that still doesn't mean i'm suited to be an Audie Murphy killing machine.



2 - YOU are "outgrouping" HIM, quite aggressively. before the bullets have started to fly. what, you WANT him on the other side? you don't want him to take off his badge and uniform and refuse an unlawful order? by not permitting him even to discuss theory with you, you force him ever more into the arms of the Jump Out Boys.

that's basic group dynamics AND diametrically opposed to Tzu. don't unnecessarily create enemies were you don't have them and give them an avenue of retreat / conciliation.


3 - keep mouthing off about how you're going to get you some. after it's so widely known that the .feds are trawling almost all data on the net, you think it's a good idea to mouth off ON A SITE LIKE THIS about what you're going to do? or anywhere on the internet?

*facepalm*

congratulations, civilServant just put a gold star on your home address for firearms confiscation notice.

*claps*




I mean the guy is a huge black guy with a racial complex who is military trained and going around the countryside now pulling a Jason Bourne of sorts and is determined to murder.

actually, it sounds a lot like the DC sniper deal.

only we didn't know that's what the DC sniper deal was until after they were caught.

Anonymous zen0 February 08, 2013 10:33 PM  

Come on, people! The Germans made laws to deny Jews their legal status as citizens first so they could kill them.
This cannot happen in America. In America, you can still have status as a citizen, but POTUS can kill you anyway cuz he say!

Totally different situation. Retards.

Anonymous Scintan February 08, 2013 10:36 PM  

What part don't you understand?

I understand it all. Again, is there something fundmentally wrong with you?

Blogger Nate February 08, 2013 10:38 PM  

"Huh? Get off the sauce. You're making things up now."

The fact that you can't recognize common historical patterns merely serves to demonstrate the decidedly limited capacity for abstract thought you possess.

...

That's for those who aren't into the whole brevity thing. If you prefer things stated more succinctly... I can oblige as well.

You're a fucking moron.

Blogger Nate February 08, 2013 10:40 PM  

"Again, is there something fundmentally wrong with you?"

Yes.

He's a moron.

Anonymous Clay February 08, 2013 10:50 PM  

I missed lars...but I wanted to ask him....about three years ago, I got stopped at a roadblock at about 2100 on a Friday nite. I just ran up to get a Subway sammich, about 3/4 of a mile up the road. The roadblock was just in front of the neighborhood where I live. It wasn't there when I left. He said he smelled alcohol. I had no alcohol in the vehicle, only water. He was nice enough to let me call my neighbor, who walked down, (I was only about 10 houses from mine, and he let her take my vehicle back home.)

He took me up to the local precinct for a breath test.
We got to the station, and I blew twice. Came out fine, both times. Each time you blow, it spits a piece of paper out, with the results. The first two times, it came out negative. He threw both papers in the trash can by me. The third time, it was a .15. He snatched it, got up, and walked down the hall. Soon as he did, I grabbed both those first two results out of the garbage can, and stashed them in my wallet.

Took me to jail, a very humilitating experience. He didn't even handcuff me, and let me use my cell phone to call a friend to bail me out. He was actually very nice, because I didn't give him any trouble, and was very polite.

I bailed the next morning.

I hired a lawyer, showed him those papers, and he laughed.

When Court day arrived, my lawyer just told me to come to his office, and sit there. He would go to court.

He called his office about 30 minutes later, and said the Judge just looked at the cop, and said, "really"?

Dismissed.

I'm sure that cop still has a boner for me.

Blogger "1951" February 08, 2013 10:54 PM  

Cope are the enemy. Period. Our Lars here is a nice guy, I'm sure, but he's still a cop, and he will side with the rest of the cops when push comes to shove. If Lars sees a "brother officer" cap a guy on a train platform, or rape a teenage girl in a squad car, he's going to look the other way. Sure, he'll feel bad about it, but he will never testify against another cop, because gangsters don't snitch, and because the other cops know where his family lives.

And when gun confiscation comes around, you can bet your bottom dollar that good old Lars will do his part. Yeah, his conscience will be pricked, but when the choice is "shoot the gun nut, Lars" or "lose your job, pension, and insurance, Lars", ol' Lars isn't going to waste a second worrying about some gun nut's stupid constitutional rights. There isn't a cop in the world who will take a stand on principle if the cost for doing so is losing that precious pension. No, our Lars is going to be right there when they kick down Mr. Molon Labe's door and shoot his kids in the face. He'll be feeling bad about it, too, I'm sure.

But not as bad as Mr. Molon Labe will. Mr. Molon Labe and his kids will be dead.

Lars: I accept that you are a morally conflicted cop. I do not accept that you are a good cop. If you were really a good cop, you'd quit the force, because moral behavior is incompatible with policing as we know it today. The police -- the institution itself -- is inherently corrupt and beyond redemption.

Lars, you and I both know that every cop, no matter how "clean", is in the business of proctecting and serving one thing and one thing only: the Big Blue Gang. My advice to you is to get out before you find yourself doing something you'll regret the rest of your life -- or, worse, losing your ability to regret anything at all.

Anonymous Anonymous February 08, 2013 10:56 PM  

There is a plaque on the wall of the Marine Sniper school at Camp Pendleton that has a translation of a Chinese proverb that reads, "Kill one man, terrorize a thousand." Don't know if Dorner was trained at Pendleton, but he at least grasps the concept.

Blogger Unknown February 08, 2013 11:00 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous David of One February 08, 2013 11:00 PM  

Nate,

I've always respected you and your opinion ... and that has not changed except even more so ...

For the first time I sense more than a little Bane in you.

Whether anyone's, myself included, opinion matters or not does not matter ... I am impressed anyway and all the more.

Blogger Unknown February 08, 2013 11:00 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Daniel February 08, 2013 11:03 PM  

Gamma Rabbit update: McRapey's going dark for 10 days, starting at midnight tonight.I'm sure it was one of those long-planned unexpected vacations.

I'd better make an announcement, too. For the next 10 days, my random chortling will be due to the fact that I'm thinking of his dramatic and heroic flight from the scene of his thrilling victory.

Blogger Unknown February 08, 2013 11:05 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Unknown February 08, 2013 11:10 PM  

From Dorner manifesto:
"My first recollection of racism was in the first grade at Norwalk Christian elementary school in Norwalk, CA. A fellow student, XXXX if I can recall, called me a nigger on the playground. My response was swift and non-lethal. I struck him fast and hard with a punch an kick. He cried and reported it to a teacher. The teacher reported it to the principal. The principal swatted XXXX for using a derogatory word toward me. He then for some unknown reason swatted me for striking XXXX in response to him calling me a nigger. He stated as good Christians we are to turn the other cheek as Jesus did. Problem is, I’m not a fucking Christian and that old book, made of fiction and limited non-fiction, called the bible, never once stated Jesus was called a nigger. How dare you swat me for standing up for my rights for demanding that I be treated as an equal human being."


In short, it's just another guy losing his mind due to liberalism indocrination and victimization. It's the same since Columbine, when those atheist fags started firing at their school.

Anonymous The other skeptic February 08, 2013 11:21 PM  

NYT almost discovers that gun control is racissss

Blogger Nate February 08, 2013 11:29 PM  

"Nate,

I've always respected you and your opinion ... and that has not changed except even more so ...

For the first time I sense more than a little Bane in you.

Whether anyone's, myself included, opinion matters or not does not matter ... I am impressed anyway and all the more.
"

I feel the need to point out that I have never had any Bane in me. Little or otherwise.

Anonymous zen0 February 08, 2013 11:32 PM  

Mr. Pea said:

It's the Jew part that gets ya... huh Nate?

I couldn't figure out what the deal was with Mr. Pea, and now it gets so much clearer. Mr. Pea is the macho version of Tad. They want to make sure the society they live in is so emasculated that they feel safe being Jews within it, even though they totally reject the inherent Jewish project as ordained by their God.

I certainly hope you do not hypocritically say "Next Year in Jerusalem" like all the fashionable Galut Jews.

You know that your Instruction Manual tells you that you are required to go home, right? They are awaiting your arrival as we speak. God went to he trouble of giving you your own land where you can thrive.

What's stopping you? Leave the nations to their fate and go fulfill your God ordained destiny and quit niggling the friggin Gentiles. God first sends fishers (like me) but then if you evade them, he sends hunters. Quit thinking if you keep cowing the Goyim the hunters will not arrive one day.

History will not wait for your pretty little ass to make up its mind. You can and will be simply an object lesson to others, if you so desire. God is not a respecter of persons.

Blogger papabear February 08, 2013 11:36 PM  

"1 - the saying is an entirely different animal than the doing. i forget the exact number, but something like <10% of men who serve in combat will even intentionally point a gun at someone and pull the trigger. most just shoot wildly ... and uselessly. and that's after being trained for combat."

Dave Grossman talks about this, but this is the rate before the introduction of modern psychological conditioning in boot camp.

Anonymous The other skeptic February 08, 2013 11:38 PM  

Chris Dorner finds a friend in Jesse Jackoff Jr

I guess it doesn't matter to Jackoff, since he is going to be doing some jail time, it seems, so he might as well stick it to the man.

Anonymous zen0 February 08, 2013 11:39 PM  

Some Anonymous Dweeb said:
"Kill one man, terrorize a thousand."

Ever hear of "fear aggression"? Dogs get it. Kill one man, make 1000 potential enemies. It may not be Chinese, but it be real.

Blogger David of One February 08, 2013 11:40 PM  

Damn ... in that context ... well DAMN!

Likely Bane is somewhere with beer coming out of his nose and laughing his ass off (in a manner of speaking).

I will have to choose my words much more carefully. Dagnabit.

Blogger David of One February 08, 2013 11:47 PM  

DAMN!

This is a whole lot worse than the codpiece episode about 7 years ago.

I'm certain SB, Taylor and others had a good laugh then.

Anonymous The other skeptic February 08, 2013 11:47 PM  

President decides who is entitled to second amendment rights

Anonymous zen0 February 08, 2013 11:51 PM  

David of One said:

I will have to choose my words much more carefully. Dagnabit.

You must have missed the classic "Two Men in a Foxhole" exchange.

Pity.

Anonymous Jesse February 09, 2013 12:00 AM  

One thing in common with all "Civilservant"s is the belief that since they passed some civil service test, they are part of some ruling elite, rather than the parasite they truly are. What scares them, is that their days of life going on as usual, are numbered. The Chinese or whomever are going to stop lending at some point and they are helpless to do anything about it. Maybe not tomorrow or next month. But one day the money will run out. If they were an adaptive individual, civil service would be the last place they would be employed. They and their families and communities will be consumed in the chaos. Only the mechanics and other people who get their hands dirty will survive.

Anonymous The other skeptic February 09, 2013 12:06 AM  

If only the LAPD was familiar with the bard, they would have known:

but he that filches from me my good name robs me of that which not enriches him, and makes me poor indeed

Anonymous The other skeptic February 09, 2013 12:10 AM  

Is it worthwhile writing to CA local reps protesting the latest proposed anti-gun provisions, or is it better to just move to Oregon of Nevada?

Blogger David of One February 09, 2013 12:13 AM  

I'll try to find it zen0. Thanks.

Anonymous FP February 09, 2013 12:15 AM  

“There was no warning. There were no orders. No commands. Just gunshots.”

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57568368/christopher-dorner-manhunt-two-innocent-women-shot-by-lapd-officers-had-no-warning/


Shoot first, ask questions later (and plant evidence).

Anonymous The other skeptic February 09, 2013 12:21 AM  

Meanwhile, there's plenty of crazies for the FBI to work with and entrap.

Anonymous Huey Freeman February 09, 2013 12:31 AM  

Vox's logic and reasoning is usually on point, except when it comes to cops. Then his logic goes completely out the window.

Anonymous Mr. Pea February 09, 2013 1:05 AM  

Amusing. I am not a Jew. Mostly Irish and Choctaw. Some Scott. Some English. All the way back to the Blessing... maybe some Illuminati.

Really. Don't drink the tap water! ;-)

Anonymous Mr. Pea February 09, 2013 1:11 AM  

You're a fucking moron.

You're a fucking idiot throwing a bone. And you become a fucking moron because I won't bite.

Like I said, I threw out Jews... you gyrated your loins in horror.

So?

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 1:19 AM  

clay, thanks for the story. you said you wanted to ask me something? i guess just wanted my gut reaction to your story? well, a number of things occurr to me. first question, just for clarity's sake, had you been drinking? you said you had no acohol in the car, but that is not the same thing as saying you had not been drinking. believe me, usually it is not difficult to smell alcohol on a driver's breath when you walk up to the window.

as far as the breath tickets go, i am afraid i do not know enough about the specifics of your case to comment intelligently. it could be that the sample was "invalid" for a variety of reasons which were not the cop's fault. it could be that you blew into the machine in a manner that was not smooth, and so the machine rejected the sample. i have no way of knowing without more information. from your story, what does not make sense is that you would have two readings that said DEFINITIVELY that you were BELOW a .08 (or whatever the limit is in your state), and then a reading that is .15. in most states those machines are very carefully calibrated and tested. if the machine rejected two samples, i could see the cop asking for a third one.

in summary, i simply do not have enough information to judge what occurred in your situation as you described it.

lastly, i have refused to participate in DUI road blocks, because i have not heard a compelling argument about their constitutionality. and i might add that i have never been reprimanded or given a hard time for refusing to participate. but it is extremely rare that we use such road blocks where i work.

Anonymous FP February 09, 2013 1:27 AM  

Hmm, from 2002 via buzzfeed:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/ellievhall/lapd-killer-found-8000-and-returned-it-to-an-oklahoma-church

'"The military stresses integrity," Dorner said. "There was a couple of thousand dollars, and if people are willing to give that to a church, it must be pretty important to them."

He said it was "a little scary" having that much money in front of him.

Dorner said his mother taught him honesty and integrity.

"I didn't work for it, so it's not mine. And it was for the church," he said. "It's not so much the integrity, but it was someone else's money. I would hope someone would do that for me."'

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 1:31 AM  

"1951", you gave no argument at all. you simply asserted that there is no such thing as a "good cop". so, there really isn't much point in my wasting time denying that your claims about me are not accurate. what does surprise me is the confidence you have in the nonesense you were writing. i mean, really.... we have never met and you know nothing about me.... how could you possibly say so much with such confidence? that is baffling. and just for the record..... i have worked on cases in which cops have been arrested..... even high ranking cops.... for things as varied as DUI to sexual assault. so what you wrote is just completely wrong.

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 1:53 AM  

as far as me being a "morally conflicted cop"..... i should be clear that i feel no moral conflict in most of what i do. i think that there is a compelling case that the war on drugs is counter-productive. is that the same thing as immoral? i am still thinking over that one. is that the same thing as unconstitutional? again, i am happy to continue that discussion.

but as far as "constitutionality" is concerned, it is important to keep in mind that morality and constitutionality are two separate things. it is possible for a law to be constitutional, but immoral.

..... the second ammendment.... i like the idea that the second ammendment enshrines the right to bear arms, but does not grant it. the government cannot grant a right that comes from the creator.

but, in the varied day of a police officer, most of what we do is not so morally ambiguous. it is not hard to know what to do when you see a man slapping around a woman. it is not hard to know what to do when you see a pedestrian get struck by a car. it is not hard to know what to do when a thief is running away with a woman's handbag..... i could go on and on with this litany. true some officers make drug enforcement most of their career. that is not true of most officers that i know.

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 2:20 AM  

and clay, please understand that i am not assuming that you are guilty or that the cop who arrested you was in the right. i was only reacting to facts as you presented them, in a legal and investigatory manner, based on my experience in the field. if you want to share more details of the story, then i can give you my "gut reaction" on those details.

Anonymous rho February 09, 2013 2:22 AM  

Why? It's no secret that police make terrible soldiers. This is even codified into the rules of games like Advanced Squad Leader. Conversely, combat troops have historically mad very bad police, given their recon-by-fire tactics.

The rules of a game doesn't have much relevance in this argument. Whether ASL codifies this as a rule has little relevance, unless you can prove that ASL is predictive as a model. If you're just making an illustrative point without real meaning, then I retract my complaint.

However, as near as I can tell, cross-pollination of civilian police and military forces make them nearly indistinguishable as separate entities. As far as I can tell, they are closer to each other than anything else, to the point that the police do not consider themselves civilians. It's quite common for the police to refer to non-police and non-military as "civilians", whereas the police are, actually, civilians themselves.

To add to that, the military in modern combat situations do quite a lot policing. Perhaps they are not as qualified as the elected law enforcement officials in D.C., but they seem to do alright. I agree with you that, historically, Roman soldiers made bad police. But our modern soldiers seem to do alright.

I think your model is flawed here, and resorting to the rules of a game is insufficient proof.

Anonymous Jesus H. Christ, aka your Savior. February 09, 2013 2:23 AM  

"Maybe psycopaths are incapable of being anything but fucking crazy, you fucking dolts!!"--Jesus H. Christ, as told to Kirk Cameon's anus.

Blogger Kentucky Packrat February 09, 2013 2:27 AM  

Dave Grossman talks about this, but this is the rate before the introduction of modern psychological conditioning in boot camp.

I'm surprised that the entire Armed Forces from 1980s on doesn't have PTSD. Basic training is all about taking 18 year olds with the mental stability of a Weeble, shattering their little consciences into pebbles, and then gluing them back together like Humpty Dumpty meets Picasso or Dali. Shove said kid into a shooting war where you have to output 100% effort to kill the enemy, cook for a couple of tours of fixed length, and then dump them back into civilian life (sometimes with a disability).

I have every respect for those who served, but there's no way a family member of mine will ever go in until the Constitutional militia is re-established.

Blogger Kentucky Packrat February 09, 2013 2:29 AM  

Oh, and someone on page 1 of the comments talked about the drug gangs targeting cops directly, Mexico style. Couple of days ago, CBS News was talking about a prosecutor gunned down in the parking lot of his office. Told my wife: "It's the Mexicans". The story immediately disappeared.

So, yes, the Mexican gang willingness to kill the man is crossing the border.

Anonymous Athor Pel February 09, 2013 2:56 AM  

" dh February 08, 2013 4:27 PM
...
The US military, if appropriately directed, has the ability to do a lot of damage, and kill a lot of people, when no held back by rules and policies designed to slow it down.
"




If the civilians controlling the military took the gloves off the military it would mean that they had stopped caring about public perceptions. Most or all news media would be shut down. It would mean they were going full tyrant.

The propaganda victory for resistors would be immense. If the powers that be changed the rules of engagement it would mean they were losing and were getting desperate.

Quit spreading your FUD. It won't stick.



Blogger lars February 09, 2013 3:07 AM  

rho, that is an interesting subject- the civilian or miltary or paramilitary nature of police. i could point out that members of a hockey team will refer to their family and freinds watching in the stands as civilians. i would not make too much of the single word. my experience is that the work of a soldier and a cop are radically different. and, where i work, i think the majority of police officers do NOT have military backgrounds. i can think of a couple guys with stellar records as special forces officers in the military who have really struggled with the "common sense" nature of police work.

Anonymous p-dawg February 09, 2013 3:08 AM  

@Lars: My questions to you: How many police officers have you cited or arrested for breaking the law? Of those, against how many did you testify in open court?

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 3:14 AM  

p-dawg, your question is difficult to answer because when there is evidence that a police officer should be arrested, generally an IA (internal affairs) investigation is launched. i do not work in IA. hence, if i uncover evidence of an officer committing a crime, then i submit the evidence to a supervisor or to IA.

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 3:17 AM  

i worked one night (and was the first officer on the scene) when an EXTREMELY high ranking officer was drunk and crashed his car into another car. i participated in that arrest. he plead guilty, so there was no need to testify in that case. i just mention this case as noteworthy, because police in most of the world would not have made such an arrest, i'd wager.

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 3:21 AM  

and p-dawg, there has never been a need for me to testify, because in every case the guilty officer pled guilty. jail time for some.

Anonymous mook February 09, 2013 3:24 AM  

"You are now living in the post-1865 America."

More particularly, the post-1965 America.

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 3:25 AM  

so, how many have i been involved in over the years? less than half a dozen, i'd guess. years of investigations and arrests all bleed together, though, for any cop.

Blogger Nate February 09, 2013 5:03 AM  

"
You're a fucking idiot throwing a bone. And you become a fucking moron because I won't bite.

Like I said, I threw out Jews... you gyrated your loins in horror.

So?"

No Nancy. I threw out Stalin to see if you would piss yourself... and you obliged. It did exactly what I wanted it to do... it shed some light on your bizarre worldview... if mongoloids can have such a thing.

You've outdone yourself tonight... displaying both massive insecurity, ignorance, and out right stupidity all at the same time. I'd say that's a lot of work for a retard.

Toddle off to bed now... hopefully someone there can help you change your diaper.

Anonymous p-dawg February 09, 2013 5:59 AM  

@Lars: I see that I phrased my questions poorly - my apologies. Let me be blunt: Do you acknowledge the 'blue wall of silence' or is it, in your experience, a myth?

Anonymous zen0 February 09, 2013 7:23 AM  

David of One February 09, 2013 12:13 AM

I'll try to find it zen0. Thanks.


It was all in the comment section. I don't think it exists anymore

Anonymous zen0 February 09, 2013 7:47 AM  

Amusing. I am not a Jew. Mostly Irish and Choctaw. Some Scott. Some English. All the way back to the Blessing... maybe some Illuminati.

Really. Don't drink the tap water! ;-)


Great. I wasted a perfectly good Aliyah speech on a Goy. Oy vey.

Anonymous zen0 February 09, 2013 7:58 AM  

David of One February 09, 2013 12:13 AM

I'll try to find it zen0. Thanks.


As you probably know by now, it doesn't exist as a post. It was only in the comment section so does not exist anymore, except in dim memory.

Anonymous TheVillageIdiotRet February 09, 2013 8:34 AM  

If they're going to condemn Americans,to live like Mexicans in Mexico.
Maybe it's time for us to go Mexican on their asses.
entire police force quits


bad cops,bad cops
what you gonna do
what you gonna do when they come for you


DannyR

Anonymous Stilicho February 09, 2013 9:31 AM  

Lars, in Clays story, what you have to understand is that, from a legal perspective the breathalyzer simply provides testimony like any other witness. Such machines have to be carefully and frequently maintained and calibrated because it is universally recognized in courts that they make mistakes. AT BEST, that particular machine's "testimony" was per se unreliable and could not even be used as evidence. Now the cop who threw out the first two bits of "testimony" from the machine...well, there's a legal term for someone who attempts to destroy evidence in order to achieve a contrary result in a criminal proceeding isn't there?

At any rate, welcome aboard. Some of my best friends are cops...

Anonymous redsash February 09, 2013 9:42 AM  

I can just imagine Tad or dh commanding troops in Nam. What do you mean we're not winning? Our officer corp has thousands of Master's and Phd's. They have studied every battle ever fought. They are constantly game planning every possible scenario. Our troops go through basic training and advanced infantry training. Why they only have to fight for 13 months. We control the air. We control the supply lines. Just last week even though we lost 500 men and 40 helicopters, I received a "report" where we had 4500 enemy kia's. We have even killed whole jungles. Meanwhile your driver, house boy, house maid, manager of the hotel bar you frequent, waiter, your contact people in ARVN, and civil govt, both local and national are VC. But to top everything off, YOU ARE BOTH TOO DAMN ARROGANT AND IGNORANT TO KNOW THAT YOU ARE LOST. LOST IN THE MOST HELLISH AND METAPHYSICAL SENSE OF THE WORD.

Anonymous David of One February 09, 2013 9:50 AM  

zen0,

Yep, made a good effort of it but didn't find anything.

Regardless, I picked-up on the the meaning. ;-)

Damn!

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 9:59 AM  

p-dawg, regarding the "blue wall of silence"..... in my experience, whre i work, it is not so prevelant. believe it or not, most of the police departments in my area of concerned with abuse of power and accountability. i have known so many cops get fired for reasons that might surprise you.

"the blue wall of silence" is certainly a dangerous reality in some areas. i will not call it a myth, but i think it is a regional phenomina. i can add that several times officers from a larger nearby area have implied that they wanted special consideration from my colleagues and me, and we pretty much told them they were slimy, and to go back to where that sort of thing works.

Anonymous Clay February 09, 2013 10:05 AM  

lars, my bad. I'll admit; I had two Pacifico beers that nite. That won't even give me a buzz. But it will damn sure put a 175 lb man over .08. Which is a ridiculous standard.

As I said, the cop was most polite. Which made the experience, except for the hole I was thrown into with all the fine African Americans, all that more enjoyable.

Anonymous Clay February 09, 2013 10:32 AM  

BUT. To get back to my original question, tho I've gone all the way around to get to it: do you, personally, think random roadblocks should be legal? Sounds like a cash cow to me. I can say, "I think I smell dope or alcohol", and it's a car search. What is to stop them? BTW, he found my car gun, looked at it; and put it back where it was.

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 10:35 AM  

clay, the general rule of thumb is that one "drink" of alcohol raises an average size male's BAC by 0.015 percent. maybe your pacificos were the malt liquor variety, or larger than 12 ounces?

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 10:38 AM  

and yeah, clay, regarding DUI road blocks.... i already answered that question. no sweat if you did not see the answer... i already wrote that i refuse to participate in DUI roadblocks, because i have not heard a compelling argument on their constitutionality. and my bosses and buddies have not given me a hard time or reprimanded me for this.

Anonymous Clay February 09, 2013 10:48 AM  

LOL. It's not Malt. And, they're 16 oz. I was just hungry, maybe. BTW, he let me take my sandwich to jail with me. I can't believe they let you "opt out" of their roadblocks. (yes I missed it; a long thread)

Anonymous Porky February 09, 2013 10:51 AM  

Lars, I thought you said you had dirty cop stories. Now you say every one of them has plead guilty.

MOAR DIRTY COP STORIES!

Anonymous Clay February 09, 2013 10:59 AM  

You're right. They are 12 oz....the bottle just looks BIG.

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 11:17 AM  

i worked with a guy, an officer whose demographics i will not get into. he heard on the radio that a bunch of 19 and 20 year olds had called an ambulance to their party, because one girl was dangerously drunk. he arrived, and promptly got on the radio and canceled the ambulance, saying that she was fine. he then asked the supervisor if he should drive the girl to her parents. supervisor said yes. but then instead of taking her to her parents (she was 19), he drove her to one of his "crib apartments" in the city. he dropped her off. he then returned to work, and finished his shift. when his shift was over, he returned to the apartment. he and the drunk girl then ejnoyed various activities invovling wearing little clothing. without her knowledge he photographed these activities. he then dropped her off at her friend's house where the party had been.

EVERYONE i work with was beyond horrified to learn what happened. there was absolutely NO blue wall of silence. the dude pead guilty and went to jail for a good long time.

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 11:26 AM  

stilicho, thanks for the welcome. and i do not want to be pedantic, but in my original response to clay, i addressed the issues you discussed about evidence. if the suspect does not blow into the machine properly, and an invalid sample is obtained, then those breath tickets do not have evidentiary value, and it is really not a probelm to throw them away. i would probably hold on to these invalid tickets, anyway, but this is NOT a destruction of evidence issue. all the evidence is all recorded in the machine, anyway. believe me, i have been around long enough that i understand the pros and cons of these machines, and the nature of their testing and calibration. i am comfortable that, at least where i work, great care is taken of these machines, and they are very accurate. anyway, we almost exclusively used blood tests, now.

Anonymous Clay February 09, 2013 11:44 AM  

Yes, lars. My daughter, who worked for the State CSI lab, as part of her training, had to go around to various law enforcment agencies, to calibrate their breathalyzer machines, and she told me the resuls could quote, "be all over the place". And, she was having cops test them!

Blogger IM2L844 February 09, 2013 11:52 AM  

police in most of the world would not have made such an arrest, i'd wager.

Police in most of the United States would not have made such an arrest, I'd wager.

Lars, you simply can't ignore the statistical facts. How much weight should we grant your personal anecdotal experiences? You appear to be one of the good guys with a high degree of personal integrity and intellectually a notch above the average officer that I have dealt with over the years. I have no doubt that you are being totally honest, but your sphere of experience seems to be the exception rather than the rule.

I'm sure you understand that the general citizenry and probably some of your close acquaintances are reticent to share the negative experiences they've had with police and their less than flattering views of the profession with you (just as I'm sure some of the more bolder ones probably do).

However, it's not just Nate. Just about everyone I know and, [i]I would wager[/i], just about everyone here has a story of what would normally be considered criminal activity perpetrated by police officers being swept under the rug. That police officers are not held accountable to the same standards as everyone else is an undeniable fact. They, quite literally, can get away with murder much easier than any other segment of society and they do.

The odds are that I, as an innocent unarmed citizen, am much more likely to be shot and killed by police officer than I am by any other subset of society. I understand that police are in a position to have a higher incident of accidental shootings, but it is also true that police are inherently in a position to fabricate an ex post facto defense based on some accident scenario that is generally given the benefit of the doubt and, for all practical purposes, goes critically unquestioned.

You simply can't deny the job has a built in potential escape clause for bad, even if aberrant, behavior and this is a serious problem because police are subject to the human condition, the same as the rest of us, and this is an extra temptation that most of us are not exposed to.

In any event, I wish I hadn't missed the bulk of this discussion, as you seem to be exceptionally capable of maintaining a calm and reasonable posture given all the slings an arrows of the environment. I just think police are intrinsically predisposed to a particular self justifying bias because they are constantly exposed to the seedier side of humanity and I don't think you are immune. You see the world through police colored glasses, but that vantage point isn't necessarily the best reference frame from which to experience reality.

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 12:11 PM  

clay, i cannot speak for the unprofessionalism of other departments and thier equipment. and i believe your story about your daughter testing the machines. i can only speak of my experience, and i can verify that the machine CONSTANTLY tests itself, and that if there is any significant deviation (significant deviations meaning a VERY small fraction of a percent) in its analysis of known samples, then the machine shuts down, and cannot be used, or even turned on.

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 12:23 PM  

IM2L844,

i have seen police officers whom i knew well (not necessarily liked) be arrested for crimes which would not be crimes if they were committed by any other person. i mean, legally there is a difference between behavior that is morally reprehensible, and behavior that fits the legal definition of a crime because it contains the elements of a crime as spelled out in the crimes code.

my point is that i know officers who did jail time for actions they committed, when a normal non-police citizen would not have committed a crime in the course of behavior or faced punishment.

Blogger "1951" February 09, 2013 12:38 PM  

lars: " I refuse to participate in DUI roadblocks, because i have not heard a compelling argument on their constitutionality. and my bosses and buddies have not given me a hard time or reprimanded me for this."

Gosh, I wish we all lived in Mayberry, where Sheriff Andy will let Deputy Lars opt out of roadblock duty because Lars questions the constitutionality of the practice. It must be nice to belong to a police department where integrity comes first! Too bad the usual kind of police department -- the kind the rest of us out here have to deal with -- is composed of amoral bastards who look upon "civilians" with contempt.

As for DUI roadblocks: the facts that Officer Lars refuses to participate means nothing. Imagine Lars a few years from now, after firearms confiscation laws are passed: "I refuse to participate in HSA gun confiscation sweeps, because i have not heard a compelling argument on their constitutionality. and my bosses and buddies have not given me a hard time or reprimanded me for this." Gosh, thanks, Lars! I'll sleep so much better in Camp FEMA knowing that there was one brave cop who was willing to opt out of putting me there!

The moral soldier does not simply "refuse to participate" when his unit is machine-gunning kids at My Lai. He either pulls his gun on his fellow soldiers or he quits the Army right then and there.

Lars: I'm sure you think of yourself as a good man, and I'm sure you will always take a moral stand as long as the cost to you of doing so is not too high. I also know that when it comes down to a choice between violating the rights of the citizens or losing your job, pension, and benefits, you will violate the rights of the citizens. Because that's the cop way. You'll feel bad about it, but you'll still do it. Guaranteed.

And if any of you who are reading this think otherwise, you are fooling yourselves.

Blogger IM2L844 February 09, 2013 12:51 PM  

i have seen police officers whom i knew well (not necessarily liked) be arrested for crimes which would not be crimes if they were committed by any other person.

Were they actually prosecuted and sentenced for said crimes? Color me dubious. I'm inclined to take you at your word, but I would be interested in examining the public records of any such cases so I can verify the veracity of this claim. If you can provide the information (you're a police officer, you know what is) required to submit a Public Records Request, I'll do the rest.

Anonymous Dan in Tx February 09, 2013 12:51 PM  

I've really enjoyed the discussion on this topic. Lars is no different than us in this respect: he will have to decide where his line in the sand is that he will not cross or even if there is one for him. The difference is for us the line is viewed from a defensive position: "If they cross this line it's on" where for folks like Lars it is from on offensive position: "If they tell me to push this or enforce this order I will not." To point and say he WILL cross that line when the time comes is no different than when the "Tads" and "Civil Servants" of the world point at us and claim that we will do nothing but roll over and take it in the ass when the time comes simply because we haven't started firing off rounds yet. One thing if for certain, it is becoming ever more clear where the line is for both sides and we will all at some point have to decide what we're going to do when the idiots who rule us order it to be crossed.

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 1:00 PM  

IM2L844,

there is a lesson that i learned early on as a police officer: citizens have every right to doubt police and to question police, especially considering that we are agents of coercive power. so, i take no offense at your "dubiousness" of my story. contact me privately and i will share some details with you. i am not sure this thread is the appropriate place to sling others's names around. but i have nothing to hide, and i am speaking in good faith.

Blogger IM2L844 February 09, 2013 1:10 PM  

i am not sure this thread is the appropriate place to sling others's names around. but i have nothing to hide, and i am speaking in good faith.

Well then, I'll take you at your word. So, tell me, were they actually prosecuted and sentenced for their actions or were they, as I suggested (a day or two in jail and an in house reprimand not withstanding), eventually legally exonerated due to "the police officer defense" that is generally unavailable to the rest of us?

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 1:18 PM  

i remember seeing a tv clip once, years ago, in which some LAPD officers were trying to increase public approval of their department. i believe this was years before i was a cop, but the lunacy of these officers left an impression on me. in the video two LAPD officer were just being "officer friendly" and trying to gain public affection. one of them said: "there are two types of citizens in LA: those who hate police and think they can do no right, and those who love police and think they can do no wrong. what we are trying to do is to take people from the hating category to the category where they love police and think we can do no wrong.". i was dumbfounded at the idiot, and could not believe this was on tv, and hoped that this was not the official line of LAPD. watching it, i heard an echo in my head from "the good, the bad, and the ugly" where angel eyes sneers at the union officer: "i wish you luck!" when the union officer says he will not rest to he removes all corruption from the union army.

serioiusly, i cannot think of a more disatrous stated of affairs than to have police unquestioned and unconditionally loved by the public. okay, now you heard it from a cop. but it does not follow that i think my profession is evil or unnecessary.

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 1:47 PM  

okay... with special love to porky and IM2L844.....

here is a "dirty cop" story. it will be interesting to see how people react to it. i am sure that some will see it as proof that police power is inherently evil. the story gives me a little embarassment, to be honest. but it also shows that the "blue wall of silence" is not as strong and monolithic as some assume.

before i give the details, let me point out that if any ordinary non-police citizen had committed these same morally repugnant actions, then there would not have been a "crime", just a moral failure. to sum it up: this former cop was prosecuted and went to jail precisely because he violated his trust and position as an officer.

an ambulance is called to an underage drinking party. the friends of a 19 year old girl worry that she is dangerously drunk and needs medical help. an officer i worked with showed up at the party, and then got on the radio and canceled the ambulance, saying that the girl was fine. this is all normal and plausible so far. this officer then asked for permission from a sergeant to drive the girl (really a 19 year old woman) to her parents' house. the supervisor gave the ok. instead of taking the girl home, he drove her to one of his "crib apartments" in the downtown of the city, and dropped her off there. the officer then returned to work and completed his shift. when his shift was over, he returned to his "crib apartment" where the drunk 19 year old was sleeping, and he enjoyed various activities involving the wearing of no clothing. she "consented" to these activities. yeah, of course we are talking about various kinds of sex. this officer also video taped and photographed these activities without the drunk 19 year old's knowledge or consent. after the morning romp, the officer (now off-duty of course) drove the girl back to her friend's house where the party had been the night before.

when we fellow officers heard what had happened, there was abolutely NO "blue wall of silence". yeah, that dirty cop abused his position. and he did jail time. and he deserved jail time.

but what is important for everyone to keep in mind, is that had any man done exactly the same thing, but not been a police officer..... then no "crime" would have been committed.

Anonymous JT February 09, 2013 1:47 PM  

You know VD, when I heard the chief say that on the news I thought the exact same thing. I also had already heard how the cops had already shot up two cars for simply vaguely matching the description of the vehicle (while the occupants not matching the person)... "cowardly" chief? I think that mantle goes to you and your officers... Bunch'a quivering bitches.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 09, 2013 2:00 PM  

"President decides who is entitled to second amendment rights"

Fucking called it. Yea, and I humbly accept my place among the modern prophets.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 09, 2013 2:03 PM  

but what is important for everyone to keep in mind, is that had any man done exactly the same thing, but not been a police officer..... then no "crime" would have been committed.

Sex with a drunk girl?

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 2:06 PM  

IM2L844,

"I just think police are intrinsically predisposed to a particular self justifying bias because they are constantly exposed to the seedier side of humanity and I don't think you are immune. You see the world through police colored glasses, but that vantage point isn't necessarily the best reference frame from which to experience reality."

this is a really interesting point that you raise, here. and, believe it or not, it is one that i have discussued with my more intelligent colleagues over the years. there is some truth that certain behaviors become "normalized" when you see them on a constant basis. and i sincerely hope that if anyone out there in this blog is not a cop.... then i hope that he does not see as much of these horrifying, ciminal, and immoral behaviors that i and other police see daily.

this is part of what i was getting at when i said that i thought many do not really know or understand what police do. honestly i am not bragging when i say that, or pleading for special consideration.

to sum it up: rubbing elbows with criminals on a daily basis does take a toll on your psyche. and there are dangers that an officer must protect himself from. sometimes i consider how normal it seems to me that men beat their wives or that people steal things, or that parents drive around with unsecured infants in their cars while they are stoned, drunk, and high out of their minds. and when i think of how normal all this seems to me, it does make me sad. and i do have to take a step back and make certain that this "normalizing" of criminal behavior does not impact my relationships with family and friends, or adversely impact my thoughts and convictions in general.

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 2:12 PM  

Aeoli Pera,

men having sex with drunk girls is the most normal thing in the world. girls having sex with drunk men is the most normal thing in the world. i am not saying it is good, but, be realistic..... go to any nightclub and that is what the majority of the the men and women are there for..... the jimmy buffet thing: lets get drunk and screw.

i object to this lifestyle on many levels. that does not mean that i put on my "jackboots" and arrest every drunk fornicator i come across. geez, what do y'all think i am??? an over-zealous, over-militarized, legally legitimized thug? ))))

Anonymous Dan in Tx February 09, 2013 2:12 PM  

Lars, what was the officer in your story charged with exactly?

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 09, 2013 2:15 PM  

You need your own blog, lars. For the title, I recommend "Good Cop Bad Cop".

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 09, 2013 2:16 PM  

I agree it's normal, but you said it wasn't a crime and that's clearly incorrect.

Anonymous Dan in Tx February 09, 2013 2:19 PM  

My comment seems to have disappeared. I was curious what the officer involved in the drunk girl incident was charged with. The reason being, if I were to have sex with a passed out drunk girl that I hauled all over town, I don't see getting out charged with anything less than rape.

Blogger IM2L844 February 09, 2013 2:20 PM  

but what is important for everyone to keep in mind, is that had any man done exactly the same thing, but not been a police officer..... then no "crime" would have been committed.

I'm not sure why you think this is an important or even a relevant distinction. Certain positions, throughout society, come with certain legal responsibilities to the general public trust that create the potential for criminal activity that would not be considered criminal activity if someone else, not saddled with the responsibilities to the public trust created by the position, did the exact same thing. There is nothing special about this. A crime is a crime.

That you think that some sort of special distinction should be made is telling and supports my original contention that your perspective, although maybe to a lesser degree than many of your peers, is, nevertheless on the bias.

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 2:22 PM  

hahahaa... thanks for the blog suggestion, Aeoli Pera.... ))) i'd risk losing my job for that one. )))

but, i must differ with you... no, there is no clear crime.

a man having sex with a drunk girl? clearly a crime.... no, i am sorry, that is not clear at all. such cases are incredibly hard to prove.... even if you find some crime code that seems to vaguely fit.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 09, 2013 2:25 PM  

I suppose I'm supposed to be reacting emotionally to the story to give away my biases.

But this is Vox Popoli. You can just ask for our biases and we'll tell you.

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 2:25 PM  

guys, regarding sex with a drunk girl.... by the time that guy had sex with her, it was hours after she had been drunk. she was an adult and she consented. no, none of you would have been charged with a crime in this case. sorry, but you all just don't know the facts if you think you would have been. i am sorry if you were arrested for the same thing in past, but you probably shouldn't have been.

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 2:28 PM  

Aeoli Pera, respectfully, i am not trying to bait anyone. and i am not trying to divulge biases. i am a guest here.

Anonymous Dan in Tx (no drunk chicks on my couch) February 09, 2013 2:31 PM  

Lars:" guys, regarding sex with a drunk girl.... by the time that guy had sex with her, it was hours after she had been drunk. she was an adult and she consented."

Ok when I read your story I was under the assumption that she was still unconscious when he did the deed.

Blogger lars February 09, 2013 2:35 PM  

IM2L844:

"I'm not sure why you think this is an important or even a relevant distinction. Certain positions, throughout society, come with certain legal responsibilities to the general public trust that create the potential for criminal activity that would not be considered criminal activity if someone else, not saddled with the responsibilities to the public trust created by the position, did the exact same thing. There is nothing special about this. A crime is a crime.

That you think that some sort of special distinction should be made is telling and supports my original contention that your perspective, although maybe to a lesser degree than many of your peers, is, nevertheless on the bias."

i am not sure where we did not connect on this one.... but nowhere did i say that i think a special distinction should be made. (although i do think that police who abuse their trust and positions should be punished.). i brought up this incident partly because people were saying continuously that police GIVE EACH OTHER THE SPECIAL DISTINCTION OF NOT PROSECUTING EACH OTHER. for whatever it is worth, here is one story to the contrary.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 09, 2013 2:36 PM  

a man having sex with a drunk girl? clearly a crime.... no, i am sorry, that is not clear at all. such cases are incredibly hard to prove.... even if you find some crime code that seems to vaguely fit.

But we have to take back the night!

Look, I'm no lawyer. (I believe existential reality was the term you used.) But I've been around the manosphere long enough to know how this plays out for different people. Your colleague was an Alpha, clear as day (using his position to get some willing, 19-year-old ass). If he were a Gamma and not a cop, she'd maybe have changed her mind afterward, called rape, and shipped him off to to get actually raped in a federal prison.

Like I said, existential reality (on this side of the law). I'll go look up the conviction rate for rape and the false accusation rate and report back so we have a better picture.

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