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Monday, February 11, 2013

The end of due process

It is clear that due process no longer applies in the United States, at least not under emergency circumstances such as "war" and "the police are really, really scared of the bad, bad mans":
It's official: The drone war has come home to America. Wanted fugitive Christopher Dorner, the homicidal former cop currently at war with the LAPD, has become the first known human target for airborne drones on U.S. soil. Their use was confirmed by Customs and Border Patrol spokesman Ralph DeSio, who revealed the government's fear that Dorner will make a dash for the Mexican border. The fugitive has already killed three people, according to police, and has a $1 million bounty on his head. 
That certainly didn't take long.  It wasn't all that long ago that I was warning this was bound to happen sooner or later and the self-appointed defenders of the State were dismissing the notion as the usual declinist alarmism.  But this news should certainly harden the opposition to gun control; no one with even one-tenth of a brain is going to be willing to be disarmed by a government that is not only claiming a right of assassination without due process, but is actively making use of drones to hunt, and presumably kill, Americans in the United States.

On the plus side, it looks as if we're getting a real-time lesson in how effective the fully mobilized and equipped police are when waging war against the people.  We will have to hope that the drone operators have trigger fingers that are less twitchy than the LAPD officers; otherwise we should not be surprised if LL Cool J and half of USC's defensive line are killed by Hellfire missiles before the end of the week.

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166 Comments:

Anonymous Preemptive Strike February 11, 2013 1:09 PM  

Shut up, Tad

Anonymous RL February 11, 2013 1:09 PM  

What on earth makes the cops think he would head to Mexico? He would stick out too much there. More likely he in hiding with someone in a black enclave in LA.

Anonymous Daniel February 11, 2013 1:12 PM  

Yeah, RL. Like Compton.

Anonymous Soga February 11, 2013 1:14 PM  

Hoooo....

Precedent, baby.

Anonymous Love's Orphan February 11, 2013 1:14 PM  

the whole government against one man, yet he is called a coward.

Anonymous Josh February 11, 2013 1:17 PM  

So, how do we know this wasn't a false flag all along to speed up the adoption of drones as SOP for police?

And this just so happened to occur whilst numerous municipalities and even states are debating drone legislation.

Coincidence?

Anonymous Megabozz February 11, 2013 1:18 PM  

Wheels within wheels, Josh.

Anonymous RINO February 11, 2013 1:20 PM  

and presumably kill

Based on what?

Anonymous Azimus February 11, 2013 1:24 PM  

The article does not indicate whether it is an armed drone or surveillance drone, that I saw. If it was surveillance only would this represent a significant change from , say, a helicopter? It's like a poor man's helicopter?

Anonymous Joel P. February 11, 2013 1:25 PM  

So, how do we know this wasn't a false flag all along to speed up the adoption of drones as SOP for police?

I don't think Dorner's manifesto would read as it does if this were a false flag operation.

Anonymous A Visitor February 11, 2013 1:26 PM  

I predicted this a few days ago when Vox first posted on Donner. My best is he'll try to make a dash to Colombia and hang out with the black people there, if he's going abroad. Otherwise, I echo Daniel and RL: he's probably hiding right underneath their noses (in a figurative sense). L.A. has many a place to hide, as does any major city.

Anonymous RINO February 11, 2013 1:26 PM  

The article does not indicate whether it is an armed drone or surveillance drone, that I saw. If it was surveillance only would this represent a significant change from , say, a helicopter? It's like a poor man's helicopter?

They said it was equipped with a thermal camera to cover the large area of wilderness they're dealing with. So to proclaim the end of due process on that basis would indeed mean due process ended when they started using media helicopters to follow people involved in car chases.

Anonymous Josh February 11, 2013 1:29 PM  

otherwise we should not be surprised if LL Cool J and half of USC's defensive line are killed by Hellfire missiles before the end of the week.

Don't you know how similar a silver escalade ext and a gray Nissan titan look? It was an honest mistake!

Anonymous Gen. Kong February 11, 2013 1:30 PM  

Due process, along with all the other remaining shreds of the rule of law, have been dead for some time in the Banksta Banana Republick. We're just starting to notice the stink now.

But, hey look! - our fearless Pink Palmetto Princess (Miss Lindsay Graham of South Carolina, who must be the inspriation for McRapey's gamma rabbit) is going to hold up Hagel's confirmation until Magic Negro coughs up info on Benghazi! In even more thrilling news from Sodom-on-Potomac, it appears the CIA will soon have its first Moose-limb director! What a glorious day for progress, comrades! Let us hum the Internationale as we march towards the happy unicornian utopia!

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother February 11, 2013 1:33 PM  

Alas, poor LL Cool J. We barely knew thee.

Anonymous RINO February 11, 2013 1:40 PM  

So, how do we know this wasn't a false flag all along to speed up the adoption of drones as SOP for police?

I don't know Josh, maybe you should find the expertise of a communications professor to tell us if the victim's families look like grief actors.

Anonymous Communications Professor February 11, 2013 1:42 PM  

Based on my training and experience, the victim's families appear to be grief actors.

Anonymous Difster February 11, 2013 1:44 PM  

Just remember people, there is no way that they can make enough drones to take out even 10% of America's gun owners.

I suspect, there will soon be items on the market that will make it feasible for civilians to knock drones out of the sky.

Americans with money and access to technology pose a much bigger threat to drones than poor brown people in the Middle East living in squalor.

Let the Drone Wars begin!

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother February 11, 2013 1:47 PM  

Let the Drone Wars begin!

Where is Obi Wan when you need him?

Anonymous Alexander February 11, 2013 1:49 PM  

RINO, how on earth is that relevant?

A false flag operation does not require that the public victims of it are in the know.

I lean more towards opportunistic powergrab than deliberate setup in this case, but your logic is particularly awful.

Anonymous ZhukovG February 11, 2013 1:50 PM  

I wonder how hard the cops are really looking for him. I mean, if you're not on his hit list and you'd like to enjoy your nice pension someday......

Anonymous CS February 11, 2013 1:55 PM  

I suppose it's possible they could use a non-weaponized drone for search purposes only and call in police units to make the arrest upon making a positive identification. Of course, this is highly unlikely and presents other potential constitutional problems (depending on where the search was taking place).

Blogger tz February 11, 2013 1:56 PM  

An actual USA insurrection would be far worse. Remember the economic and educational status of the average afghan and how they manage to create improvised weapons that are killing our (expensively trained and clad) soldiers. In one of the Wikileaks videos there is a transcript where some iraqis are trying to surrender to an aircraft, but the pilots are told you can't surrender to an aircraft so are blown up. The blue-coats would have something worse than Saratoga, complaining that the rebels aren't fighting fair. But they too will not have anyone to surrender to - there is no way to surrender to everybody.

Anonymous cheddarman February 11, 2013 2:00 PM  



IMO, If this guy gets caught, it will be by a tip from civilians or by lower level law enforcement officers doing good detective work.

I am sure the law enforcement bureaucracy is as worthless as any government bureaucracy.

sincerely

cheddarman

Anonymous RINO February 11, 2013 2:00 PM  

Based on my training and experience, the victim's families appear to be grief actors.

Well there you have it, I'm sold.

I lean more towards opportunistic powergrab than deliberate setup in this case, but your logic is particularly awful.

It's sort of relevant, but it's more sarcasm towards libertarians who see only nails to hit with their false flag hammer. Not only is this not a false flag it isn't even an opportunistic power grab as law enforcement was already happily using drones, and was going to continue to do so.

If missiles do rain from the sky down onto him then I will have to eat a lot of crow but that is NOT a high probability outcome. If he stays in the country there is a good chance he'll die, but it will be when he is cornered in a shootout and refuses to give himself up and not from drones.

Anonymous Jack Amok February 11, 2013 2:01 PM  

I don't think Dorner's manifesto would read as it does if this were a false flag operation.

I agree with Joel. That manifesto is too leftwing, Obamaluvin', gun-grabbing to be a false flag.

Anonymous cheddarman February 11, 2013 2:03 PM  

Good news on the drone war front: Our military leadership is worthless.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/rank-incompetence-434/

Excellent article by military reformer Bill Lind on the systematic incompetence of military officers above the rank of captain.

sincerely

cheddarman

Anonymous Gen. Kong February 11, 2013 2:04 PM  

RL:
What on earth makes the cops think he would head to Mexico?

Mexico would refuse to extradite unless the prosecution took the death penalty off the table. This is a common gambit of those running from murder. While Mexican gangbangers are by far the most common users of this strategy, others have been known to take advantage of it. As I recall, the killers in TN who Dr. Helen studied were actually caught in Douglas, AZ trying to get into Mexico.

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother February 11, 2013 2:05 PM  

The false flag character would resemble Earl Bailey, the subject of a recent Onion article sho has singlehandedly kept the USG at bay for twelve years with his shotgun and three boxes of ammunition.

Anonymous Stilicho February 11, 2013 2:08 PM  

I suspect, there will soon be items on the market that will make it feasible for civilians to knock drones out of the sky.

Ask and ye shall receive

Anonymous Eric Weston February 11, 2013 2:08 PM  

Seems to me that the LAPD is showing themselves to be brutally incompetent. It gives me hope actually. If they start to fall apart at the seams against one then what will they do against an organized resistance?

Anonymous civilServant February 11, 2013 2:08 PM  

... actively making use of drones to hunt, and presumably kill, Americans in the United States.

Is the use of such resources unwarranted with Dorner?

Anonymous Stilicho February 11, 2013 2:14 PM  

Hey, look, Chronically Stupid (TM) showed up with another moronic concern-troll question. You still bore me.

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother February 11, 2013 2:20 PM  

Change your name to "End Justifies The Means". I like that much better.

Or Mr UnderDesk. Which ever you prefer.

Anonymous sir_chacealot2002@yahoo.com February 11, 2013 2:24 PM  

Dorner broke a psychological barrier, and "they" must, must bring this to a quick close, before it becomes something that people that have snapped see as viable. That something is targeting the families of corrupt people in power.

Who is the "they"? Same group as always: corrupt people in power (whatever moniker you give them.)

Imagine the rift it is creating even know in the "thin blue line". "You want me to put MY family's life on the line for that corrupt bitch?" Same for family members: "why should WE pay for YOUR sins". Sun Tzu would be proud.

Anonymous Timothy February 11, 2013 2:31 PM  

Apparently, the Dorner case is not the first use of drones by police on U.S. soil. Back in 2011, law enforcement officials in North Dakota used a drone to track suspected cattle rustlers.

The LA Times published an article on the strange case.
Here's the link if any of your are interested: http://articles.latimes.com/2011/dec/10/nation/la-na-drone-arrest-20111211

Blogger Nate February 11, 2013 2:34 PM  

"
Is the use of such resources unwarranted with Dorner?"

That depends if you want to define the US as a nation of laws or not.

Anonymous Porky? February 11, 2013 2:44 PM  

If they kill Dorner with a Hellfire I'll eat my hat.

Anonymous Jack Amok February 11, 2013 2:46 PM  

Change your name to "End Justifies The Means". I like that much better.

Or Mr UnderDesk. Which ever you prefer.


If the folks he supports get their way, it'll be "Lamppost Ornament" eventually. Bureaucrats don't fare well when angry mobs emerge from the rubble of a collapsing society. None of these idiots seem to understand the rules they ignore as inconvenient to their exercise of power are the very rules that keep them from being massacred by pissed off multitudes. "Due Process" is part of a two-way agreement. Government employees agree to respect due process, the people agree not to murder government employees.

Dorner is the perfect demonstration of that in action. He thinks "The System" ignored his due process, so he's ignoring his part of the bargain.

The fact that he's almost certainly crazy doesn't mean he's incorrect about his analysis. It just means that he's not capable of finding a less personally apocalyptic resolution. The worse things get, the harder it gets to find such a solution, and the lower the threshold gets to deciding to go "crazy."

Or...

Amok.

Anonymous Raggededge February 11, 2013 2:51 PM  

@civilServant: Is the use of such resources unwarranted with Dorner?

Did I miss the part about Dorner's trial? Didn't realize a jury had found him guilty yet...

Anonymous The irReverend Idle Spectator February 11, 2013 3:03 PM  

otherwise we should not be surprised if LL Cool J and half of USC's defensive line are killed by Hellfire missiles before the end of the week.

I will pray for that.

LL Cool J's "head is like a shark's fin"

He should have been in Hellfire a long, long, time ago.

Anonymous DonReynolds February 11, 2013 3:17 PM  

WARNING. WARNING. WARNING.

ALL bald Black men, weighing between 250 and 300 pounds:

Remain indoors and away from windows, for your own protection. Do not drive cars or boats or bicycles or ATVs, where you might be visible from armed drones now searching for the latest unpleasant person.

Take this warning seriously, it is mandatory that you remain out of sight, especially from flying gun platforms that are remotely piloted.

This is not a drill.

Anonymous Anonymoose February 11, 2013 3:17 PM  

Query. Is Doner's situation more that of a man driving recklessly who has killed several people, or is he someone who has been caught and imprisoned? Legally speaking the first sounds more plausible and so I think while drones are worrisome, the unlikely hellfire wouldn't be illegal. THe problem for drones is obviously a liability issue if you hit the wrong person.

Anonymous Daniel February 11, 2013 3:17 PM  

lars, (I assume you are reading this): this is an example of an issue that is a wing of the state that supercedes the will of the men on the force. It doesn't matter if some, or even most of the cops oppose the use of surveillance/assassination drones. Drones are in play, and the human cops will be there to pick up the remains.

A question for police officers here:

Does your jurisdiction include the use of traffic violation cameras?

Anonymous Josh February 11, 2013 3:31 PM  

THe problem for drones is obviously a liability issue if you hit the wrong person.

Eh, they're already shooting up trucks with good old semiautomatics. So we presume they aren't that concerned with liability.

Anonymous Daniel February 11, 2013 3:34 PM  

The problem for drones is obviously a liability issue if you hit the wrong person.

You mean, the suspect?

Anonymous Noah B. February 11, 2013 3:42 PM  

If someone presents an imminent danger to life or property, the use of deadly force against them is justified. If a person does not present an imminent danger, then killing them is murder. The availability of more advanced weaponry doesn't change this basic principle.

Anonymous GreyS February 11, 2013 3:46 PM  

Over the next few years, one of the biggest trends on the internet will be how to take down drones, avoid drones, jam drones, locations of drone bases and how to take out drones at their base locations. Team Blue will be more and more seen as the enemy. And the government will actively scrub all references and websites about this stuff. And they will use the excuse that Al Qaeda etc cannot have that sort of information.

Reminds me of PJ Farmer's Dayworld where people wear large brim hats wherever they go. Except as we see in drone videos-- the operators aren't all that discriminatory about who they take out.

Anonymous Idle Spectator February 11, 2013 3:50 PM  

He killed three whole people. Already?

To borrow a line on Adrenoleukodystrophy, more children die each year of choking on food than they do from Dornicide.

Anonymous Jack Amok February 11, 2013 3:51 PM  

If you recall, a few days ago when his truck was discovered in Big Bear I suggested folks get out before the authorities decided to nuke the place from orbit.

Well, I guess they'll start with 10,000 feet and work up from there.

As an addendum to DonReynold's warning to bald Black men above, I'll also suggest that regardless of what you look like, if you find yourself in the general vicinity of any large, bald Black men (or apparently small Asian newspaper delivery women), I'd suggest you relocate to a safer location immediately.

Anonymous Anonymous February 11, 2013 3:51 PM  

There is zero chance that they will actually use drone missiles on Dorner. It's too soon and too sudden. It would interfere with the program of Frog Boiling. They will murder Dorner using good old fashioned bullets, the drones are just being used to help find him.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 11, 2013 3:53 PM  

The only thing potentially funnier than that pre-emptive strike will be Tad's eventual reply. I'm really, really looking forward to it.

Bonus: I want to see how he ends up talking about Vox and how posting this is humiliating and low and how it makes Scalzi look good.

Anonymous Rally February 11, 2013 3:56 PM  

The LAPD is shooting 170 pound white men and old Asian ladies, so watch out even if you don't fit the description. Meanwhile Dorner could have taken out LL Cool J and hosted the Grammys, and nobody would have noticed.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 11, 2013 3:57 PM  

There is zero chance that they will actually use drone missiles on Dorner. It's too soon and too sudden.

I'd agree, except that I've been paying attention for the last two months. They're doing everything way too fast. Either TPTB can't stop the snowball, or they think the lines are pretty well drawn, or they're simply a bunch of overwhelmed midwits trying frantically to exert "presence".

My money's on the latter.

Anonymous Anonagain February 11, 2013 4:08 PM  

With a $1M bounty on his head, Dorner is not going to have an easy time finding refuge anywhere, especially in the hood. I know I wouldn't hesitate a second to squeal if I had the information that would lead to his arrest and capture.

Anonymous Jack Amok February 11, 2013 4:13 PM  

or they're simply a bunch of overwhelmed midwits trying frantically to exert "presence".

My money's on the latter.


Agree. Too many institutions have a leadership that evolved in an artificial environment where brashness and backstabbing trumped competence. The only times they don't screw up is when they're too paralyzed with indecision to do anything. But increasingly, some subordinate looking to make his bones will jump the gun (so to speak).

The only thing I'm surprised by any more is how predictable every unexpected development is in hindsight.

Blogger tz February 11, 2013 4:16 PM  

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-jump-out-boys-20130207,0,7728636.story?track=lanowpicks

Discussed at length:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/feb/11/chris-dorner-drones-lapd

In other news, the uncertainty principle is getting uncertain:

http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2013/02/01/hard-questions-about-quantum-crypto-and-quantum-computing/

Anonymous GreyS February 11, 2013 4:19 PM  

The $1 million bounty is another good example of governmental power run amok at all levels. Just as the federal govt did with all the multi-million $ bounties for various AQ types: Take huge amounts of money from the public coffers at will and for whatever purpose currently deemed necessary. Then raise taxes.

Anonymous Daniel February 11, 2013 4:19 PM  

With a $1M bounty on his head, Dorner is not going to have an easy time finding refuge anywhere, especially in the hood. I know I wouldn't hesitate a second to squeal if I had the information that would lead to his arrest and capture.

Uh-huh. How many brothers call you homeboy, Anonagain? How many blacks have collected bounties on their own people? How many even believe the cash will be forthcoming from a broke-ass government that even shoots white folks?

They could call it a billion dollar bounty. The people to whom it might make a difference won't bite: they aren't brer bear, you know.

Anonymous Tad February 11, 2013 4:27 PM  

Would anyone here have a problem if the search for the murderous fugitive were undertaken with a helicopter?

Anonymous Susan February 11, 2013 4:30 PM  

Hey now, LL Cool J was great in the recent movie SWAT. Don't be hating on him now. Full disclosure: I do not like rap music at all, I just like his work as an actor. He seems a genuinely nice guy who loves his family.

If the recent hit on the two ladies delivering papers is any indication, SoCal must be running real low on Depends for Police. What dumbheads.

Anonymous civilServant February 11, 2013 4:30 PM  

Is the use of such resources unwarranted with Dorner?

That depends if you want to define the US as a nation of laws or not.


Noah B.'s response at 1542 seems a proper answer to this.

May I ask you yourself directly. If you were in charge of the operation against Dorner would you disallow the use of drones? And if so then on what basis?

Feel free to distinguish between drones using IR tracking only and drones using weapons of any kind. The concerns expressed above regarding potential collateral damage seem pertinent.

Anonymous kh123 February 11, 2013 4:32 PM  

"Take this warning seriously, it is mandatory that you remain out of sight, especially from flying gun platforms that are remotely piloted.

This applies to all pitbulls as well.

Blogger ajw308 February 11, 2013 4:32 PM  

The Viet Minh may never have rebelled against the French had they not seen the mighty French (don't laugh, it's all about perspective) beaten in WWII and realized that the French had their weaknesses.

Both sides here are learning a lesson. The citizens are learning the police are dangerous buffoons and the police are realizing they are not in control. The citizens will be unaffected by this drama and will continue on, the police will react as they usually do and call for more force and escalate their arms build up.

Anonymous Alexander February 11, 2013 4:36 PM  

I certainly would if the helicopter was authorized to then shoot missiles at the suspect.

I also don't buy into your underlying premise. It's the same idea that if a cop can stand on a street corner, then it's okay to have a cop stand on every corner, then it's okay to have a camera on every corner all the time doing the same job. It does not. A free society carries with it the underlying premise that people are free to act without constant supervision and threat of punishment. The excessive nature undermines the foundation, even if the initial act may have been reasonable.

So yeah, I do object. Anytime the government goes to the eye in the sky - manual or automatic - there ought to be a specific process for doing so and strict rules on what can and cannot be done under that type of surveillance.

Anonymous kh123 February 11, 2013 4:37 PM  

"Would anyone here have a problem if the search for the murderous fugitive were undertaken with a helicopter?"

Depends on if they'd show the same amount of searchbeam attention towards Blacks and Mexicans having backyard BBQs on the weekends, for instance.

Anonymous kh123 February 11, 2013 4:39 PM  

..."They" = drones.

Anonymous civilServant February 11, 2013 4:39 PM  

None of these idiots seem to understand the rules they ignore as inconvenient to their exercise of power are the very rules that keep them from being massacred by pissed off multitudes.

This cuts in many directions. Be careful of those multitudes. Few of them are on your side.

Blogger Nate February 11, 2013 4:39 PM  

"Would anyone here have a problem if the search for the murderous fugitive were undertaken with a helicopter?"

Apache?

or unarmed civilian helicopter?

Blogger tz February 11, 2013 4:42 PM  

As well as things like:

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/iteam&id=8976413

Anonymous cheddarman February 11, 2013 4:42 PM  

I agree with Daniel, if Dorner is hiding with any kind of underground organization (Bloods, Crips, etc), that group gets a huge amount of street credibility, IMO worth much more than a 1 million dollar bounty.

He improves his chances by going on the Atkins diet to loose weight, and growing some facial hair and changing his hair style, and anything else to throw off the facial recognition software.

Anonymous Anonagain February 11, 2013 4:43 PM  

How many blacks have collected bounties on their own people?

You're kidding, right? They kill each other over a pair of high dollar Nike sneakers. You must watch a lot of tv shows.

Anonymous kh123 February 11, 2013 4:44 PM  

"May I ask you yourself directly. If you were in charge of the operation against Dorner would you disallow the use of Einsatzgruppen or Cheka personnel? And if so then on what basis?

Feel free to distinguish between Cheka using surveillance and arrest methods only and Einsatzgruppen using liquidation methods of any kind. The concerns expressed above regarding potential collateral damage seem pertinent."
*


---
*Reworded for clarity.

Anonymous civilServant February 11, 2013 4:45 PM  

Anytime the government goes to the eye in the sky - manual or automatic - there ought to be a specific process for doing so and strict rules on what can and cannot be done under that type of surveillance.

Is there any reasonable specific process that would not be met in this case?

Anonymous Alexander February 11, 2013 4:47 PM  

There's a big difference between fighting your own kind - even over something as stupid as footwear - and being seen as a traitor and giving up one of yours to the enemy.

What do you think is the general relationship between the LAPD and LA's more vibrant members of the community?

Blogger The Deuce February 11, 2013 4:50 PM  

Are these drones armed? It's a problem either way, but if they aren't armed, it's (sad to say) not really breaking much new ground.

Anonymous Anonagain February 11, 2013 4:50 PM  

The noble savage would never turn on one his own for mere lucre. You just keep believing that.

Anonymous civilServant February 11, 2013 4:52 PM  

So. kh123 views any use of air assets in this case - the pursuit of a man who has murdered by ambush three people and who has declared his intention to murder more - as Chekist. Am I correct?

Anonymous Alexander February 11, 2013 4:54 PM  

Civilservant,

1) Well for starters, the police have proven pretty trigger-happy. Aerial surveillance of a highway chase is one thing. Drones and helicopters that are effectively stalking prey for the guys on the ground are something else.

2) A car chase also is something that happens in a very specific place for a very specific length of time. What assurances do we have that police in the air won't just stay up in the sky for weeks, noticing things that may well be illegal but totally irrelevant to their stated reason for being up there?

So right off the bat: aerial surveillance of any type should have a definite duration, location, and mission. While you can draw a line between 'leading to a dangerous suspect' and 'leading with intent to kill' and 'shooting missiles', I do not trust our government to respect those lines, so I am going to treat them as one and the same.

Blogger tz February 11, 2013 4:58 PM  

Why would anyone expect if they literally captured him and personally took him into the jail that they would actually get the $1M?

The only reason we used to honor police is because they actually would risk their lives and the risk was greater because they had to play by rules, as it was more important to save an innocent citizen's life than your own if it came down to it. (I would add firemen who are also paid to risk their lives).

Instead they are literally just gangs who avoid risks, would use you as a human shield, and otherwise treat you as "the enemy".

When you create a line that you are on one side and everyone else is on the other, the width and color doesn't matter. Eventually you will become aliens in your own towns - your culture will be as foreign as someone from Papua New Guinea.

Anonymous kh123 February 11, 2013 4:58 PM  

You can address me directly, CC; I'm not a Federal Agency.

Anonymous Daniel February 11, 2013 4:59 PM  

If you were in charge of the operation against Dorner would you disallow the use of drones?

Yes. Because (in no particular order):
-Cost to the taxpayer.
-Principle: I also oppose tax-payer money for radar guns and stop light cameras. If a human cop can't catch danger in the act as an eyewitness, it didn't happen. Pulling over a "speeder" that he can't tell is speeding with the naked eye, is a collosal, wasteful, coerced transfer of resources. Eliminating the human element from tracking suspects is a dangerous means to an inevitably bad end.
-Error: A drone can identify and target the wrong suspect in a lot more ways than the typical bumbling around of people with eyeballs. Even an "unloaded" drone can, and has, gone off.
-Track record: the number of known, admitted civilian deaths by drone is something like 4.5% of all dead struck. That is a lot
-It's the government. The same government that packs kids like sardines into idiot factories and then blames the taxpayer when a school gets shot up. They likely already have a press release prepared for the first time they crash a drone into a nursing home. "This tragedy only underscores the desperate need on the part of the police department for state of the art killing machines, and highlights the growing demand for non-consent euthanasia in America."

Shall I go on?

Anonymous Daniel February 11, 2013 5:03 PM  

You're kidding, right? They kill each other over a pair of high dollar Nike sneakers. You must watch a lot of tv shows.

Yes, Anonagain. I'm the one with teevee problem. You honestly think someone's going to snitch over a million dollars that smells like a trap for him to turn himself in on standing warrants?

You are the one who must be kidding. I wouldn't do it in a million, billion years. Even to the dumbest man I know, real shoes > obvious trap money. The guys in Cali who would hide Chris Dorner know the difference.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza February 11, 2013 5:04 PM  

Indeed, this is very important/timely predictive programming.

Anonymous Rex Little February 11, 2013 5:08 PM  

WARNING. WARNING. WARNING.

ALL bald Black men, weighing between 250 and 300 pounds:

Remain indoors and away from windows, for your own protection. Do not drive cars or boats or bicycles or ATVs, where you might be visible from armed drones now searching for the latest unpleasant person.


No kidding. Here in Big Bear, the hospital has a security guard who looks a lot like Dorner. His employers told him to stay home while the search was going on--and that was even before the drones were trotted out.

Anonymous Daniel February 11, 2013 5:11 PM  

Ask yourself this Anonagain: What's the price on the head of the snitch who takes the mil? $300 would probably be enough to get things started. Nobody who could be identified would be that stupid, especially not for LAPD money.

And trust me: for a million? That dummy might as well collect the $300 himself. One million, three hundred will by you a heck of a funeral.

If LAPD wanted someone to snitch on Dorner, they needed to set a much lower bounty: an amount of cash that the snitch could reasonably deny. The mil is a P.R. stunt to get terrified little old ladies to call in every noise she hears out by the garbage cans.

Anonymous Anonagain February 11, 2013 5:11 PM  

You honestly think someone's going to snitch over a million dollars that smells like a trap for him to turn himself in on standing warrants?

Keep moving those goalposts. Now, nobody with an outstanding warrant would go for that obvious trap. And since everyone in the hood has outstanding warrants, especially those welfare queens, we can count out the possibility that anyone will ever turn in Dorner for the reward money. Noble and brilliant savages. One wonders what other awesome traits you will come up with next that will preclude anyone in the hood from turning in Dorner for the reward.

Anonymous Noah B. February 11, 2013 5:12 PM  

Basically, it's not only the use of drones, but the government has given the people all the justification they could possibly need to distrust it. If I could, I would prevent them from having anything with metal in it.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza February 11, 2013 5:13 PM  

Also, it is surprising that race isn't being hidden or whitewashed? Now it appears that the POTUS or the LAPD is in full support of hunting down and possibly killing one of their own? This certainly destroys the snowflake/race/disgruntled worker story. Any American is fair game for drone play and if so are not internal affairs departments, unions and employed busy bodies firing people that just might snap?

In 2007, when this man was fired, he claimed fowl/wrongful termination. Some people move on but some people cannot transition into another line of work. Anyways, I heard his case is going to be re-opened.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 11, 2013 5:13 PM  

Would anyone here have a problem if the search for the murderous fugitive were undertaken with a helicopter?

A good starting place. You have a good eye for choosing the battlefield. And you've obviously practiced. I'm beginning to consider your psychology more seriously.

If Nate were a young midwit and new to this game I'd be worried. Do be a good subject and continue posting. It's for science and the children.

Anonymous Noah B. February 11, 2013 5:13 PM  

And by the time the state and the feds get through taxing you, that $1M is more like $400k.

Anonymous Daniel February 11, 2013 5:17 PM  

Exactly. Which means that Obama gets a 60% take on the snitch, and that punkass didn't do nothing but send the plane!

Anonymous Daniel February 11, 2013 5:18 PM  

Now, nobody with an outstanding warrant would go for that obvious trap.

Bingo, Charlie. Now tell me. Who's going to harbor a felon?

Anonymous Anonagain February 11, 2013 5:24 PM  

Bingo, Charlie. Now tell me. Who's going to harbor a felon?

I have no idea. But somebody who knows where a felon is harboring would find a $1M payday for that knowledge quite enticing. It's not rocket science, simply human nature. I'm done playing your game of "what if".

Anonymous Daniel February 11, 2013 5:25 PM  

The only people who could reasonably "collect" the suspicious bounty would be the ones who are in a position to turn him over. The "tips leading to a conviction" crap is a fake umbrella.

So, as a practical matter, the people who aren't going to be motivated to turn Dorner in are the people who have a greater interest in...not turning him in.

You like teevee. Law and Order has a word for this. It is:

CHUNG Doink!

Anonymous Daniel February 11, 2013 5:33 PM  

Inner circle of protection has no reason to snitch. Distant snitch isn't getting the money. Middle snitch isn't going to bet that LAPD can protect him from the wrath. You are left with crazy snitch and deluded snitch. Finally, to get the money, they've got to capture Dorner. Angry frightened cops do a much better job of killing than capturing when it comes down to it. "Thanks for ratting out Chris, snitch. Too bad he's dead."

Don't forget that 18th St. has put $10,000 and $25,000 bounties on cops, a far more abundant and easy target of opportunity. Are you going to take them up on that one? Not bad money for an afternoon of work.

Anonymous civilServant February 11, 2013 5:37 PM  

1) Well for starters, the police have proven pretty trigger-happy.

Some police have yes. This is an issue and it must be addressed. But Dorner must also be addressed. Rather than allow one to pre-empt the other both may be addressed simultaneously yes?

What assurances do we have that police in the air won't just stay up in the sky for weeks, noticing things that may well be illegal but totally irrelevant to their stated reason for being up there?

Courts have held that any illegal activity discovered during legitimate police activities is fully actionable. For example if an officer is pursuing a suspect who is fleeing through various backyards and the chase leads through someone's marijuana garden then that garden is subject to confiscation and the owner to arrest. And conversely courts have held that any illegal activity discovered as a result of illegitimate police activities is inadmissable in court. The overall consensus for many decades is that this is reasonable.

So right off the bat: aerial surveillance of any type should have a definite duration, location, and mission.

Such limits are in place of course. And since Dorner's targets are policemen and their families one may expect them to be searching efficiently where they in fact expect him to be. But since they have no idea where he is then the duration and scope of the search necessarily is open-ended.

I do not trust our government ....

Ah. Schwerepunkt.

Because of its actions or because of your ideology?

Anonymous Daniel February 11, 2013 5:42 PM  

But Dorner must also be addressed. Rather than allow one to pre-empt the other both may be addressed simultaneously yes?

Yes. Go and arrest the guy. Police work is not rocket science.

Literally. No rockets in police work. Just go where he might be, ask questions. The usual, regular, drama free, semi-pissed off manhunt.

The overall consensus for many decades is that this is reasonable.

And drone wars on the citizenry are not reasonable. For just as many decades, the police have not been using drones. Now they are. You must acknowledge the fundamental shift that this is, yes?

Anonymous Anonagain February 11, 2013 5:42 PM  

Let's see, so far, your version of reality has these low IQ savages as being noble, brilliant, tactical geniuses who can hide away a wanted felon without giving it away to anyone who might not share their interests, they read between the lines of this phoney reward, and lastly, these are not the type of people who would ever dream of expecting the government to give them money.

I'm totally convinced.

Anonymous civilServant February 11, 2013 5:43 PM  

Shall I go on?

No need. The "yes" is sufficient.

How many others would agree to your "yes?"

Anonymous Tad February 11, 2013 5:44 PM  

Has anyone determined if the drones are armed?

If they are not, then this is dumb conversation and dumb post.

Anonymous Daniel February 11, 2013 5:49 PM  

What luck! A drone has come on to defend its own existence!

Tell us, Tad, what's so great about drones, besides the fact that maybe someday you'll be able to purchase uplink to men's baths in Japan?

Anonymous civilServant February 11, 2013 5:51 PM  

But Dorner must also be addressed. Rather than allow one to pre-empt the other both may be addressed simultaneously yes?

Yes. Go and arrest the guy. Police work is not rocket science.

Literally. No rockets in police work. Just go where he might be, ask questions. The usual, regular, drama free, semi-pissed off manhunt.


So. Limit their tools. Require them to search the entire San Bernadino mountain range on foot in winter. Yes? I believe those who are concerned about cost to the taxpayer would be concerned at this.

And drone wars on the citizenry are not reasonable.

Well. Reading the article referred to at the beginning of the blog post the drone in question is being utilized for its IR search capabilities. Is that war?

Anonymous GreyS February 11, 2013 5:52 PM  

"Has anyone determined if the drones are armed?

If they are not, then this is dumb conversation and dumb post."


Just the fact that we don't know makes it not a dumb conversation and post.

Anonymous kh123 February 11, 2013 5:53 PM  

"If they are not [using armed drones to hunt for a black fugitive], then this is dumb conversation and dumb post."

Because the LAPD have never escalated their weaponry or tactics over the past two decades.

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother February 11, 2013 5:58 PM  

The World According to Tad (TWAT):

Surveillance cameras have no guns. Therefore you are dumb.

Anonymous kh123 February 11, 2013 6:03 PM  

By the way CS, you can address everyone else here in a more casual manner other than your current role as Herr Prosekutor.

"So. kh123 views any use of air assets in this case - the pursuit of a man who has murdered by ambush three people and who has declared his intention to murder more - as Chekist. Am I correct?"

If you're going to do a Krylenko or Vyshinsky, at least make up some catchy phrases or terms that - pardon the pun - do your role as lawyer some real justice: Concretized eventuality; déclassé intelligentsia; "Let us place the question on the plain of the psychological..."; "Shoot them all like mad dogs!", etc.

These are real terms and phrases used by aforementioned heroes, by the way. Dip from the wellspring liberally.

Anonymous Daniel February 11, 2013 6:04 PM  

So. Limit their tools. Require them to search the entire San Bernadino mountain range on foot in winter. Yes? I believe those who are concerned about cost to the taxpayer would be concerned at this.

You are crazy or bad at math. if you think it costs $4 million plus flight costs to have local cops look for local criminals. Oh, what, those costs would be spread out over time on different criminals? Yeah, that's a problem.

Is that war?

Yes. Considering that in 2005, the things were only designed for surveillance in the Mideast. Now they've got a very tidy body count.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 11, 2013 6:07 PM  

Has anyone determined if the drones are armed?

If they are not, then this is dumb conversation and dumb post.


I see you've observed Nate's higher intelligence as well by avoiding a battle you wouldn't win. Which is odd, because his comments are poorly edited, speltt, and he comes off as a clueless redneck from the associative cultural triggers. Which means you can "see" truth when you need to. Possibly you even possess high visuospatial IQ as well as the stereotypical Ashkenazim talent for dissembling. I conclude that you are amygdala-damaged, and not neocortically damaged. Likely, you have a reduced temporal lobe.

Your instinct is to say that Nate isn't worth responding to. Fine, dissemble away as I watch. Having an audience feels good, I daresay. So good it must be the whole point.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 11, 2013 6:09 PM  

If they are not, then this is dumb conversation and dumb post.

Forgot to say...

Fucking called it.

Anonymous p-dawg February 11, 2013 6:09 PM  

@CS "Courts have held that any illegal activity discovered during legitimate police activities is fully actionable."

Here you beg the question of whether police drones just hanging out scanning things for weeks, months, or years is "legitimate police activities", which is the very question you were "answering". Nice ploy, but a bit too obvious for this forum. Then, you move right on to "Such limits are in place of course.[sic]" Of course? Of course? How do you know? The limit of the drone surveillance has not been revealed, to my knowledge. Please link me to the citation.

Anonymous p-dawg February 11, 2013 6:15 PM  

@CS: "So. Limit their tools." Ah. So any tools that might help police should be used? How about cameras in every room of every house with feeds direct to the police station? That would certainly be a tool the police could use to fight crime. We should do that, because we don't want to "limit their tools", right? Or, is it possible that some limits on the use of tools which help the police are actually good? And, in this case, having drones spy on people who have not been accused of any wrongdoing should be limited. It's wrong. YOU might be comfortable being under a microscope every minute of every day, but that doesn't mean it's the normal human condition. At least, not until boot-licking copsuckers like you get their way.

Anonymous Jack Amok February 11, 2013 6:29 PM  

CivlServant, I'll answer your question.


A competent, trustworthy police force with a track record of, and commitment to, operating within the bounds of due process should - under appropriate circumstances - be allowed to use surveillance drones. I might even go so far as to say armed drones under very rare circumstances.

However, we're not dealing with an organization that meets my qualifications, so the question becomes entirely hypothetical.

Anonymous VD February 11, 2013 6:33 PM  

The LAPD is probably flying unarmed WASP III drones. The military is probably flying Reapers with Gorgon Stare camera systems due to their longer flight time and better cameras. Reapers can carry 14 Hellfires, but I would guess they are not armed now, because the flight time is longer with less weight.

Anonymous Anonagain February 11, 2013 6:33 PM  

This corrupt, unaccountable regime couldn't wait to use its drone technology on its own peasants. 24-hr surveillance of all human activity is the Leftists' wet dream. If the technology to read minds were available, Leftists would make it compulsory for everyone (excepting those who are more equal) to be scanned on a regular basis - for our own good and that of our community, you know.

Of course, we've already been foretold where this combination of technology and the insatiable desire for power and control will ultimately lead. I have no idea how far away technology is from implementing the implantable chip of Revelation, but it will happen. Then those killer drones will have no trouble fixing on the location and eliminating the fugitive.

It will get much worse and I don't think it will ever get better - until God decides to put an end to it.

Anonymous Dan in Tx February 11, 2013 6:42 PM  

"So. Limit their tools. Require them to search the entire San Bernadino mountain range on foot in winter. Yes? I believe those who are concerned about cost to the taxpayer would be concerned at this"

Obviously rhetorical question here but if this guy had killed a couple of schmucks in a street deal gone bad would we be talking about searching the entire mountain range on foot in winter? So tell me again why their lives and the lives of their families are worth more than everyone else's?

Anonymous cheddarman February 11, 2013 7:38 PM  

Imagine Dorner's potential in terms of Game. He should be an off the charts and up in the stratosphere, if my understanding of the theory and practice are correct...


sincerely

cheddarman

Anonymous Passinthrough February 11, 2013 7:41 PM  

For the consideration of the arm chair warriors....the suspect abandoned and burned his truck. So he lead the police to believe he is still in the area. I speculate that he had second vehicle stashed in the area and is long gone. I don't know if any of the police could track a muddy dog across a kitchen floor. So while the police are running around beating the bushes in the wilderness the suspect is waiting for them let down their guard and strike again.

What say you??

Blogger Blackburn February 11, 2013 8:05 PM  

News reports said that his truck had a broken axle, and they found a couple of AR-15s inside. Not sure I believe the broken axle bit, or maybe it was due to the fire?

Anonymous Jack Amok February 11, 2013 8:05 PM  

For the consideration of the arm chair warriors....the suspect abandoned and burned his truck. So he lead the police to believe he is still in the area. I speculate that he had second vehicle stashed in the area and is long gone. I don't know if any of the police could track a muddy dog across a kitchen floor. So while the police are running around beating the bushes in the wilderness the suspect is waiting for them let down their guard and strike again.

What say you??


One of the fascinating things is we just don't know how smart Dorner is. I've seen two basic reactions to his FB manifesto. One is "Wowza, this guy has lost it" and the other is "What a clever bit of misinformation - he's got the LAPD chasing their tails and shooting innocent people while he gets ready for whatever's next on his real agenda."

Which is it? I dunno. If I was in charge of finding him, I'd be running two semi-independent task forces. One would operate on the assumption Dorner's pretty smart and every clue is likely a bit of disinformation. The other would operate on the assumption he's a straight-line gone-postal type in pure reaction mode at this point. Of course, if I had worked with the guy for several years, I might have a better clue as to which scenario fits. But then again, I'm not sure the guys who worked with him were all that observant.

Anonymous Mina February 11, 2013 8:08 PM  

"Obviously rhetorical question here but if this guy had killed a couple of schmucks in a street deal gone bad would we be talking about searching the entire mountain range on foot in winter? So tell me again why their lives and the lives of their families are worth more than everyone else's?"

Ding Ding Ding

There's the question we should be asking.

Anonymous Mina February 11, 2013 8:12 PM  

So while the police are running around beating the bushes in the wilderness the suspect is waiting for them let down their guard and strike again.

Yep - 100% I bet he succeeds, too.

Anonymous Noah B. February 11, 2013 8:22 PM  

Makes me wonder... does Obamacare cover injuries from drone strikes?

Blogger Bruce Lewis February 11, 2013 9:13 PM  

Despite the lives lost, some good will come of this sad affair. What we are now seeing is a live demonstration of how local police departments will fare against a motivated guerrilla shooter in the event of a federal gun ban.

The verdict: not very well.

Dorner is a reprobate and a dummy, yet he has managed to hit his targets and fade into the brush, which is what guerrillas do. And he has done so against the combined manpower and technology of the entire SoCal law enforcement community at all levels.

If a moron like this can paralyze the Law all by himself, imagine what a hundred intelligent, motivated gun owners could do.

Or a thousand.

Or a hundred thousand.

Dorner is a murderer and an anti-White bigot, but his killing spree is providing excellent real-world intelligence data to those who will resist the federal government in the event of a gun ban. You may be certain that responsible parties among the Molon Labe folk are taking careful note of how their potential enemies are observing, orienting, deciding, and acting in response to the Dorner affair, and are planning to use this knowledge should the proper circumstances arise.

Should a gun ban come, the streets and highways and hills will be crawling with Dorners, most of whom will be better and smarter than he. The laws have to know that. When the time comes for gun confiscation, I suspect we will see a marked lack of enthusiasm for enforcement among the local badge-wearers who will be tasked with collecting the people’s arms.

The misery this White-hating loser has inflicted upon the innocent so far is regrettable, but the chance to watch the enemy respond to him is not. If only we could have had the manhunt without the loss of lives! As it is, I hope some responsible gun-owning citizen blows him more full of holes than a wax-dipped Emmental.

Blogger Bruce Lewis February 11, 2013 9:17 PM  

Re UAVs: Thanks, Mister Wizard!

Blogger lars February 11, 2013 9:38 PM  

dorner doesn't hate whites. he likes tebow and charlie sheen, amoung others.....

Blogger lars February 11, 2013 9:51 PM  

jack amok,

i am not sure what warrant procedures the police in LA are required to apply to use drones, but it is an interesting question.... at least for me, professionally. sure, warrants are not foolproof, and can be corrupted, i won't argue that. we've all seen "training day". but i wonder how much of the warrant question you factored into you thoughts on drones. i am guessing that there is already a "drone warrant specialist". kinda makes me laugh.

Blogger lars February 11, 2013 10:03 PM  

the "warrant issue" has not been addressed above, unless i missed. i am just home after 14 hours of work.... but it really is an important issue, and one that all liberty-loving organizations should be ironing out.... be they conservative, leftist, or libertarian. historically, the warrant process is an integral part of limiting the power of government. IF drones are being employed without various sorts of warrants being applied for and granted...... then that is an ominous sign for liberty in america.

Blogger lars February 11, 2013 10:09 PM  

look, y'all.... i am trying to be positive in some ways, as corny as that might sound. if you all (as i certainly am) are concerned about due process and the abuse of drones and such things.... then lobbying for tighter restrictions on warrants is a practical way to put your money where your mouth is. just a thought. not the entire answer, but part of it, anyway.

Anonymous CLK February 11, 2013 10:14 PM  

The whole drone business answers a question ... how would the US government get its own solders to kill US citizens ?.. the answer was always they can't ..and that's why the government cannot directly act against those in the US it opposes...there are a large number of US solders that would not stand by and let innocent civilians get killed. Even the Chinese in Tienanmen Square had to get solders from way outside in the country before they would attack the protesters.

But now enter the drones ...

Anonymous Mr. Pea February 11, 2013 10:17 PM  

DOn't worry, once they get the Drone Court up and running... it will all be legal.

Support grows for U.S. "drone court" to review lethal strikes

And cops will say, "See! It's the law!"

A little here... a little there... here we are... imagine where we will be.

Blogger lars February 11, 2013 10:20 PM  

i wouldn't be so sure that soldiers wouldn't fire on countrymen. what about kent state, for goodness sake? not to mention labour riots, and the civil war, and japanese internment camps.

as technology advances, other societal structures must advance along with it. hence, my discussion of warrants. we are stuck with cameras and drones, like it or not. creating and recognizing legal structures to limit how government uses these tools (because government will use them) is the most commonsense way to create at least temporary speed bumps in the march against liberty.

Blogger lars February 11, 2013 10:27 PM  

mr pea, thanks for the link. i knew i liked you for some reason.

but how else is it going to be done? it will be done, one way or the other. i suggest citizens who care about liberty be involved. be more involved.

if we are talking about abuses and the end of due process, then we cannot complain about setting up "warrant courts" at the same time, as warrants are the structure used to curb such abuses in our government..... well, i guess we could still complain about that. but do you have an alternative?

Anonymous Mr. Pea February 11, 2013 10:32 PM  

I said you would say that. The fact is, you are a government employee... an extension of its monopoly of force and law enforcement. And as long as the law/government allows you to use any and all technology, no matter how invasive, you will use it if it is at your disposal. "We are stuck with cameras and drones, like it or not." The law is the law. Until it is not.

Anonymous Mr. Pea February 11, 2013 10:37 PM  

well, i guess we could still complain about that. but do you have an alternative?

Leave your job and get as many of your brothers to do the same. At least refuse to follow immoral and unconstitutional laws until you get fired. Don't do the "I don't like it but I do it anyways."

And yes, I have an alternative, but it is not popular right now... if ever.

Anonymous Anonymous February 11, 2013 10:48 PM  

@ bruce lewis,

i echo what Lars said, Dorner is not-anti white. perhaps you just hate black people and selectively tuned in to what you wanted. you should really go and read his manifesto. it's online. he attacked hypocritical whites, blacks, and latinos. a link at lew rockwell had it up. you lose credibility when you let your emotions put your foot in your mouth.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/132152.html

frenchy

Blogger lars February 11, 2013 10:55 PM  

the truth is that i do not like a government monopoly on force, even though i have seen crazy red necks and hood rats both grab for guns much too rashly and quickly, and scare me to death.... takes some smoothe talking to calm down guys with guns out. but i will grant that those red necks and hood rats do not reach for guns as quickly as does LAPD, it seems.

i don't like red light cameras. i don't like ubiquitious (enemy of the state) cameras. i don't like rfid tracking. i don't like much of anything about google (even though i have a gmail account). so, there you have it. but with constitutional and warrant limitations, then at least we have a standard to work with.

Blogger lars February 11, 2013 10:59 PM  

Anonymous!

we have had our first "post racial killer, whoops, i meant president".

and now, isn't awesome that we have our first national "post racial president, whoops, i meant killer."

Anonymous Anonymous February 11, 2013 11:01 PM  

Would anyone here have a problem if the search for the murderous fugitive were undertaken with a helicopter?--Tad

Why do Leftists object to hunting wolves from helicopters but think it is OK to assassinate criminal suspects with armed drones?

MAlTHUS

Blogger lars February 11, 2013 11:06 PM  

sorry, my brain is fried. the africans who stabbed each other did not want to cooperate with police because "allah does not will it". leading me to ask them if they knew a prayer that i could pray that "allah would finish the job". .... and the mexicans who stabbed each other could not tell me who did it because they could not speak either english or spanish.... although one chicano chuckled when i held the knife stuck in his head, and i whispered: "you brains smell like corona extra and cheap tequilla!!". but, as much as i enjoy carnita mole, and a good rhuma or mambo, or fresh tangine........ i grow less and less optimistic that robert peel's formula for citizen police will work.... as the citizens do not even want it. solutions?

Blogger lars February 11, 2013 11:17 PM  

Mr Pea,

"I said you would say that. The fact is, you are a government employee... "

did you really say that? shucks, i missed it. i hope i catch it next time around, but thanks. here's hopin' we get slammin boar hunt barbque goin one of these days..... who else is in?? )))) Mr. Pea's place? )))))

Anonymous Durster February 11, 2013 11:21 PM  

I have a question that I've yet to seen be asked.

Do we have any third party confirmation that Dorner did in fact kill the people he is accused of shooting, or are we simply taking the word of the LAPD?

I've not realy seen much details about the victims as most of the stories I have seen all center around the circus of the cops trying to catch one guy. It seems odd to me, that in a story that revolves around a corrupt police department that people are not asking to make sure.

Blogger Nate February 11, 2013 11:22 PM  

"Noah B.'s response at 1542 seems a proper answer to this.

May I ask you yourself directly. If you were in charge of the operation against Dorner would you disallow the use of drones? And if so then on what basis?

Feel free to distinguish between drones using IR tracking only and drones using weapons of any kind. The concerns expressed above regarding potential collateral damage seem pertinent."

I apologize I haven't been around this thread today what with the rather epic bourbon drama. Let me answer.

If I were in charge of the man hunt... I would start by looking at my superiors and saying "We're fucked. He knows our tactics. He has virtually no leads for us to follow up on. He could be anywhere doing anything."

I would not use drones.

I would de-escalate the situation. There would be no obvious search attempts. My cops running around shooting people and ran-sacking houses arent going to help. I would tell my cops, "Guess what... someone wants to kill you. Tough shit. You're cops. This isn't new. Someone always wants to kill you. Go do your job."

I would bring in guys from other agencies and other parts of the country to talk about how to do the search... and about tactics. Because Dorner has my play book. Thus... I need a new playbook. I would make getting own a very high priority.

I would put myself in his shoes... if I were going to attack us... where would I hit us?

Then... I would sit and watch cops die until Dorner screwed up.

The fact is... that's the best anyone can do... and this 10,000 cop search dog and pony show.. is just making things worse.

Blogger Nate February 11, 2013 11:24 PM  

"I see you've observed Nate's higher intelligence as well by avoiding a battle you wouldn't win. Which is odd, because his comments are poorly edited, speltt, and he comes off as a clueless redneck from the associative cultural triggers. Which means you can "see" truth when you need to. Possibly you even possess high visuospatial IQ as well as the stereotypical Ashkenazim talent for dissembling. "

...

Thanks?

Blogger lars February 11, 2013 11:26 PM  

shooting off the cuff.... Dorner did say that he was going to ruin the families, as his family was ruined. and i think that there was photo eveidence of him in the area. i am too sleepy to look all that up, now. but it seemns like VERY STRONG circumstanscial evidence. which might not be as strong under further scrutiny.... manifestos can be read many ways, just as guns can be shot many directions....

Blogger "1951" February 11, 2013 11:41 PM  

@Anonymous "frenchy" February 11, 2013 10:48 PM

"Dorner is not-anti white"? He's a big fan of the late Trayvon. That's anti-White enough for me.

Perhaps you, like Dorner, hate White people and selectively tune in to what you want to see and hear.

You lose credibility when you let White Guilt put your foot in your mouth.

NOW CLICK HERE

Anonymous Gx1080 February 11, 2013 11:45 PM  

The Dorner Manhunt. Now that's a title for a movie.

Stuff:

http://laist.com/2013/02/10/dont_shoot_im_not_dorner_bumper_sti.php

If I was on LA, I would buy them and the T-Shirts, for myself, my car, my family, my house and my pets.

Also, he bought scuba gear. NOW you know that he's serious (according to the Internet):

http://www.tmz.com/2013/02/11/lapd-manhunt-christopher-dorner-scuba-gear-sports-chalet-torrance-murders/

Anonymous Jack Amok February 12, 2013 12:23 AM  

Lars,

The warrant is part of the needed due process, absolutely. But beyond that is the need for the organization serving the warrant to be trustworthy (as us Scouts like to say). Trustworthy is a combination of honesty and competence. They need the basic honesty to always try to do the right thing and be guardians of the public, and they need the competence to get it right.

The three "mistaken identity" shootings call the second part into serious question. Guys who end up shooting two elderly Asian women when they're after large, 30-something black man, that's Barney Fife territory. Sheriff Andy only gave Barney one bullet, and made him carry it in his pocket.

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother February 12, 2013 12:42 AM  

@1951quote1951,

Yes, I can verify that Frenchy hates white people! Hates 'em!

Anonymous Aeoli Pera February 12, 2013 12:53 AM  

Nate,

It's a compliment for both of you. I'll put it more generally: smart people in real life aren't like the smart people in movies and on TV. Rednecks are depicted as idiots.

But you're not an idiot, and Tad saw the truth despite his cultural conditioning.

Anonymous Toby Temple February 12, 2013 1:04 AM  

The slippery slope has come to pass.

Anonymous Mr. Pea February 12, 2013 1:11 AM  

lars...

Enjoy

By the way, it is not that I dislike you, but if they outlawed guns tonight, I wouldn't trust you, or any cop, with the knowledge that I was still armed, and planned to keep it that way.

Hopefully, you find the way.

Anonymous Anonagain February 12, 2013 2:59 AM  

DHS Watchdog OKs ‘Suspicionless’ Seizure of Electronic Devices Along Border which stretches 100 miles inland:

The Department of Homeland Security’s civil rights watchdog has concluded that travelers along the nation’s borders may have their electronics seized and the contents of those devices examined for any reason whatsoever — all in the name of national security.
.
.
.
According to legal precedent, the Fourth Amendment — the right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures — does not apply along the border. By the way, the government contends the Fourth-Amendment-Free Zone stretches 100 miles inland from the nation’s actual border.

Government gives itself power to do whatever the hell it likes. The people have no say in the matter. And as it gains more power, it seeks more power. It never stops.

Blogger lars February 12, 2013 8:37 AM  

Anonagain, you highlight the cancer of government power well. And i am aware that any concept i (or anyone else) could offer for a mulit-level system of accountable warrants.. . remains firmly in the subjunctive if not the optative mood.

If Charlottesville would actually threaten to shoot down a drone that flies without permission in its own airspace, that would set a good precedent. But that won't happen, of course. Maybe some western sheriffs will step up, as they have with refusing gun grabs. But the only answer would be a system of warrants that must be granted at three levels.... county, state, and federal. Nothing is scarrier than secretive federal drone warrant commissions.

But soon even armed drones will be the size of humming birds. Keeping government agencies in check wil be increasingly impossible as these drones shrink and advance. The technology was cool in popular mechanics 20 years ago. Now the reality is terrifying.

Blogger Some dude February 12, 2013 10:39 AM  

Demonic

Blogger lars February 12, 2013 11:09 AM  

Demon is as demon does.

Blogger lars February 12, 2013 11:16 AM  

I know.... who guards the guardians.... Well, i hope someone does. One of you are welcome to give it a shot. I just threw out the three tiered warrant system as a starting point for ideas. Other than establishing more local ways to "guard the guardians" is there another option other than sitting around, wallowing in animosity, fear, and despair?

Anonymous civilServant February 12, 2013 12:03 PM  

"So. kh123 views any use of air assets in this case - the pursuit of a man who has murdered by ambush three people and who has declared his intention to murder more - as Chekist. Am I correct?"

If you're going to do a Krylenko or Vyshinsky, at least make up some catchy phrases or terms that - pardon the pun - do your role as lawyer some real justice: Concretized eventuality; déclassé intelligentsia; "Let us place the question on the plain of the psychological..."; "Shoot them all like mad dogs!", etc.


Am I correct?

Anonymous civilServant February 12, 2013 1:04 PM  

So. Limit their tools. Require them to search the entire San Bernadino mountain range on foot in winter. Yes? I believe those who are concerned about cost to the taxpayer would be concerned at this.

You are crazy or bad at math.


The exercise in arithmetic is left to the reader.

Is that war?

Yes.


So. You view the use of IR capabilities in a police search for a murderer as equivilant to war.

Disregarding for a moment whether or not your view is reasonable one may ask if this exercise in police warfare is warranted given Dorner's declaration and practice of total warfare by himself.

I apologize I haven't been around this thread today what with the rather epic bourbon drama.

No need to apologize to me. Enjoy the bourbon.

Then... I would sit and watch cops die until Dorner screwed up.

Perhaps while drinking bourbon?

Given the passive response advocated it seems incredible he could ever screw up enough to be captured. He almost would have to turn himself in. Surely the reason he has failed to kill anyone else is because of the present "dog and pony show" pursuit?

One would think you wish Dorner to succeed and the police to fail on general principle.

The LAPD is probably flying unarmed WASP III drones.

This hardly seems a violation of due process.

Anonymous civilServant February 12, 2013 1:08 PM  

Other than establishing more local ways to "guard the guardians" is there another option other than sitting around, wallowing in animosity, fear, and despair?

They want no guardians at all.

Anonymous 11B February 12, 2013 2:06 PM  

Earlier when we debated gun control, gun grabbers mocked the idea that the 2nd Amendment was designed to give the people the means to overthrow an unjust government since Uncle Sam has the most advanced arsenal in the world. Guys on our side tried to explain, that due to fears of collateral damage, the government would be handcuffed in its ability to use force, thus negating a large part of their weapons superiority. Think about Afghanistan.

Well now we have a real life example in the USA of what happens when the government forgets about this. The LAPD shot up those two women in the truck for no good reason. Fortunately they did not kill them. But it's easy to see how a few incidents like that would turn a large chunk of the population away from the government.

Anonymous Anonymous February 12, 2013 4:13 PM  

LA law enforcement in all areas is messed up.
It is owned and controlled by corporations, land use organization and corrupt money grabbers/money changers.

Here's a recent example;
Richard fine imprisoned for exposing corruption in LA.
http://www.fulldisclosure.net/oldsite.php?url=/Programs/560.php

Richard Fine exposing corrution


Anonymous Kachonka February 12, 2013 4:26 PM  

LAPD is about to break wide open with or without this Dorner Character. Most the cops that are hiding are not hiding from him or his threats, they are hiding from possible riots after the manifesto was released reminding victims of hat the name officers did to them, whether Dorner wrote it or not.

Anonymous Kachonka February 12, 2013 4:29 PM  

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
***of what the named officers****

Blogger Nate February 13, 2013 10:48 AM  

"Perhaps while drinking bourbon?

Given the passive response advocated it seems incredible he could ever screw up enough to be captured. He almost would have to turn himself in. Surely the reason he has failed to kill anyone else is because of the present "dog and pony show" pursuit?"

I didn't advocate a passive response. I advocated a surgical response rather than a dog and pony show.

And no. I do not believe the dog and pony show had anything to do with the reduction in the casualty rate.

Dorner screwed up. They caught him.

The difference is my way would've prevented some asian women from getting shot.

Anonymous civilServant February 13, 2013 11:31 AM  

I advocated a surgical response

Nothing seems "surgical" about your proposal. The actor had a head start and was free to move in a vast area populated with targets. A response in proportion to the area involved and in proportion to Dorner's armament and capabilities was required. Anything less would have been inadequate. But your proposal is beyond merely inadequate. It is enabling.

By every measure the offical response was effective. Apparently Dorner spent the last few days pinned down only 100 meters from a command post set up to search for him. Apparently he observed the activity nearby and simply waited until the search for him in that area was scaled back (to levels you propose) and then tried to slip away. By happenstance he failed.

The difference is my way would've prevented some asian women from getting shot.

It would have. Because it would have been to do nothing. But then someone else would have been shot. As you said, "I would sit and watch cops [and their family][and whoever else was in the line of fire] die until Dorner screwed up."

The shooting of the two women indeed appears to be a rank failure. From here it looks like an outright crime. It must be dealt with. I expect it will be.

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