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Wednesday, March 06, 2013

The consequences of democratization

It is itself indicative of an educational failure that the inevitable consequence of democratizing anything leads inevitably to mediocrity should prove surprising:
Years ago, school was not for everyone. Classrooms were places for discipline, study. Teachers were respected figures. Parents actually gave them permission to punish their children by slapping them or tugging their ears. But at least in those days, schools aimed to offer a more dignified life.

Nowadays more children attend school than ever before, but they learn much less. They learn almost nothing. The proportion of the Mexican population that is literate is going up, but in absolute numbers, there are more illiterate people in Mexico now than there were 12 years ago. Even if baseline literacy, the ability to read a street sign or news bulletin, is rising, the practice of reading an actual book is not. Once a reasonably well-educated country, Mexico took the penultimate spot, out of 108 countries, in a Unesco assessment of reading habits a few years ago.

One cannot help but ask the Mexican educational system, “How is it possible that I hand over a child for six hours every day, five days a week, and you give me back someone who is basically illiterate?”
The concept of group schooling is fundamentally flawed from the start.  But throw in the expansion of the number of students attending as well as the elements of entrenched, self-interested administrative and teaching bureaucracies, and you have a perfect recipe for teaching absolutely nothing of import, regardless of whether you are considering American college students or Mexican elementary schoolers.  It should be readily apparent that the more children attend school, the more mediocre the education that ALL of those children will receive.

It's not exactly a zero-sum game, but it might as well be.  The more resources that are committed to education, the more the parasite class is drawn to it and the more resources will be diverted away from its primary purpose.

Now lets contemplate the consequences of importing tens of millions of these uneducated quasi-illiterates with zero familiarity knowledge of the Western political tradition and giving them citizenship and the right to vote.  On what planet does anyone possibly think this is going to lead to any sort of improvement in the national well-being?  What is the case for believing this is going to do anything but hasten the decline and fall of the United States?

People sometimes wonder how I can be an open and avowed anti-equalitarian elitist.  To which my response is: precisely how mediocre do you believe yourself to be that you are not?

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165 Comments:

Anonymous bob k. mando March 06, 2013 5:01 AM  

another element in the failure of schools is the strict segregation by age/grade.

functionally, this allows each grade cohort to crystallize into a 'Lord of the Flies' scenario ( you've noticed all of the hullabaloo about bullying? ), especially when failed students are held back x years.

because, the more years a student is held back ( whether for behavioral reasons or just flat out stupidity ) THE GREATER HIS PHYSICAL ADVANTAGE vs the average kids.

combine that with the habit of female teachers to studiously ignore everything that doesn't rise to the level of overt physical altercations and the results are about what one would expect.

the one room school house, age integrated class model *can* counteract this to some degree because ( until the high school grades ) there is ALWAYS a larger student around.

obviously, bullying has always been and will always be with us. but the default feminine response of 'pretend it's not there' or even appeasement certainly doesn't do anything to deter it.

Anonymous Peter Garstig March 06, 2013 5:14 AM  

The biggest bully has to be the teacher.

That's not always the case. I was in a class when I was 10 where the teacher got bullied around by 1 pupil. She had to leave the school for psychological reasons after 3 months.

Heck, this guy was 10 years old and he physically abused the teacher in front of the whole class, again and again.

Anonymous bob k. mando March 06, 2013 5:27 AM  

Peter Garstig March 06, 2013 5:14 AM
The biggest bully has to be the teacher.



i know what you're trying to say but that's fundamentally wrong. the teacher has to be a leader and the dominant force in the class room. but that is critically different from being the 'biggest bully'.

in that difference lies the gradation between civilization and grass huts.

Anonymous OCS March 06, 2013 6:07 AM  

As someone who recently graduated with a bachelor's in computer science from a private Catholic university, I must say that being duped makes me feel incredibly stupid. Thankfully I came out of that idiotic money sink with nary a debt or loan to repay, but boy is it incredibly pointless.

I honestly wish sometimes that I just took a job as a janitor or something and learn programming on the side like I was already doing in High School; I'd be at least making a positive monetary gain rather than having to fight my way out of debt like so many of my peers.

Besides, learning to program/maintain databases/networking is something that can be done online--there are multitudes of up-to-date sites and video series that's just a Google search away. Now think of spending $12,000 every six months to learn BASIC HTML AND CSS AND JAVA $%^&ING APPLETS (this was in 2009 mind you!) over the span of 16 weeks.

On my own time, I've learned the ins and outs of HTML5, CSS3, javascript, PHP, MySQL, some Apache, and a CMS called Perch within the span of 6 weeks. For $0 and 0 cents. Perhaps others might not absorb the stuff as readily as I can, but that still doesn't justify the outrageous cost and the lavish toilet paper with my name in a fancy font on it.

I was so fed up with the whole thing that I chose not to walk. I wanted my shiny TP mailed to me in the spirit of the crude and dead business transaction that the Modern University is.

Even aside from all that, things rapidly change in the field, so after three years or so, what you've just paid for is at best deprecated. Quite honestly if I was not abiding in Christ I'd be pretty damn nihilistic about the whole thing.

Anonymous VD March 06, 2013 6:12 AM  

Wheeler, if you aren't going to behave in a more civilized and respectful manner, you're going to find that you won't be commenting here either.

Anonymous HongKongCharlie March 06, 2013 6:14 AM  

Throughout Western Culture---public schooling has been the norm and it has worked out.

Wheeler that's BS, explain how it's working out now. How can a public education system educate the children to the level they are able to maintain the Democracy? So far in history it hasn't been done. Nor will this once great Representational Republic that has morphed to a democracy do so.

HKC

Anonymous sprach von Teufelshunden March 06, 2013 6:24 AM  

[Withstanding citing Luther and Gatto]

Vox, you didn't get the memo?

THE BANKSTER’S SOCIAL ENGINEERS DECIDED THAT A NEW SUBSTITUTE FAMILY MUST BE CREATED AND INSTALLED INSIDE AMERICA IN ORDER TO ATTAIN THEIR LONG TERM AGENDA OF THE ENSLAVEMENT AND DESTRUCTION OF AMERICA

The classical roles and authority of Mommy and daddy were destroyed and a NEW FAMILY was very craftily created. The New DADDY was to be the USG. The NEW MOMMY was to be the controlled major mass media, the official propaganda dispensers for the USG, which has become basically an habitual lie machine. The public schools have become the new CHURCH where existential values are inculcated and deposited inside the children’s minds, perhaps the best mindkontrol system ever devised and only matched by TV’s kids shows, cartoon and computer games. Thus one can understand why individuals without typical family backgrounds or roles are often installed in high positions as cutouts, folks like J. Edgar hoover.

So now this NEW FAMILY of the USG, the Major Mass Media, and the Public Schools, is the basic organ of the system of mindkontrol designed by the SSG and is fully operational to keep Americans psychologically and emotionally conditioned to stay asleep to true American History and continue believing the BIG LIES which include the basic assumption that their substitute DADDY the USG would never lie to them or hurt them and is concerned with their best interest like any normal Daddy would be. And the same for their substitute MOMMY and substitute CHURCH.

So many folks have bought the BASIC BIG LIE that their substitute Daddy, the USG, and their substitute Mommy, the major Mass Media, and their substitute Church, the Public School System WOULD NEVER LIE TO THEM and would provide for all their basic needs through their whole lives. And anyone who tries to tell them the opposite is quickly regarded as someone that just hates and is trying to disparage and destroy their NEW SUBSTITUTE FAMILY SYSTEM, which form their new triune, but false godhead. So in a sense the BIG LIES of the USG are really embedded like religious beliefs, sort of a new church for the NWO. Very effective as a form of Orwellian mindkontrol utilizing the double-think. And that is why many get so upset when confronted with the abject violations of the basic Rule Of Law, the Constitution and Bill of Rights and the evidence that their government has become a very large RICO criminal enterprise run by foreign banksters and foreign intel infiltrators and assets.


* To get more of Dr. Preston James, and other very useful information.

Wheeler, you and I both being Marines, probably recall this. At least in my case, at USMC Comm/Electronic School, at 29 Stumps. The formal "A" School, of traditional group classroom; instructor to ~20 to 30 students, was being supplanted with CBT/Self-paced instruction, as early as 1980. A (interesting enough) valuable feature of a Star Trek type universe. Not sure if that continued, because that allowed for autonomous control of the curriculum. Not most conducive to a regime bent on empire, and absolute control of a nation's citizenry and armed forces. So, the question is posed. Does one want mommy, daddy, or HAL to teach your children? I guess, the answer lies in just WHO programs HAL...

Anonymous Krul March 06, 2013 6:41 AM  

CGPGrey on education.

His chipper attitude belies some of the more sinister and interesting possibilities of Digital Aristotle.

Anonymous James May March 06, 2013 6:46 AM  

Fahrenheit Quatro Cinco Uno.

At the risk of being repetitive, I once again mention Ray Bradbury spending several days a week at the library from the age of 17 to 27 to better himself.

In an analogue to that, America once was a place where small, basically grass roots groups and families valued education without needing some enormous bureaucracy to come in front of them like the Tenn. Valley Authority in front of hillbillies with flash cards and tell them the wonders of education.

Even I myself, an indifferent student by American standards, taught myself to learn Portuguese in Rio by reading a grammar book every day. When I got to a single thing I didn't understand, it was back to page one and re-read the whole thing. Page 5, didn't understand, back to page 1. Page 11, didn't understand, back to page 1. I literally pounded it into my head my sheer will, since I will confess to otherwise being something of an idiot.

Since science fiction is rather a part of this blog, I point out the fact that long ago, an SF writer may have taken this story about Mexico and made a clever and satirical analogy to institutional book burning.

Stepping sideways from there, I give you Tor.com, a web site no different in political principle from the Daily Kos, where Tor freely indulges in censorship, and even racism, declaring the entirety of their betters from most of the 20th century of fantastic literature to be unwitting morons who hated blacks and women. In such an arena, one can presume blacklisting is not far behind and the conspicuously tolerant and diverse progressive liberal in fact has little patience with either.

The reason SF writers prefer evil corporations to pound and unending post-nuke zombies is that this is not a topic they will tackle. It goes against their pro-illegal immigrant mantra of the old immigrant the same as the new, while failing to point out with all their obsessive alt-history, that the old immigrant practiced time-keeping at sea experiments in the 18th century and the new couldn't figure that out with a blueprint. Hell, they can't even read, and fly across the Yungas Valley of Bolivia on steel cables like a circus act rather than exceptionally simply build a bridge.

What's this all add up to? Art can control narrative, as can the news. When it falls down on the job, it is itself a form of illiteracy, propaganda and censorship, since it blanks out pages from history and current events that would add context rather than steal it away. This is how failure in it's millions is imported from cities like Cairo that look like Blade Runner at night, with ducts and bare cables running up the sides of '60s high rises where they cook on the roof with open fires and ride donkeys in the suburbs.

Journalism and art used to pride itself on saying "it is what it is." Now it's a magicians trick that says "it is what it isn't." While playing that multicult fiddle, America is a burning sun sinking into a sea of mediocrity and failed value systems.

Anonymous sprach von Teufelshunden March 06, 2013 6:46 AM  

Sorry, but speaking of HAL (going a bit OT):

The Beast

Gee Vox, this right up your alley:

Despite the heavy compartmenting and deep classifications, this secret of the existence and use of the BEAST to “game” society is leaking out.

And, if I may further inject, something concerning both Italians and Krugman:

Italians Reject Austerity

Anonymous Rantor March 06, 2013 6:53 AM  

The feminization and bureaucratization of the schools has destroyed them and greatly inflated costs. (Bureaucracy required to manage the less competent and less confident among the women teachers?) They now show a total ignorance about what is important and hide behind zero tolerance policies to help incompetent administrators make decisions. There is no common sense.

20 years ago I still thought schools should be able to swat misbehaving kids. Now they don't seem to know which behaviors need correcting. One school sent a kid home for chewing his pop tart into the shape of a pistol??? Another sends a kid home for stopping a shooter on his school bus??? Pop tart kid did nothing warranting punishment and the other kid should be declared a hero.

Teachers and administrators continually demonstrate their incompetence, the only thing that can fix this would be to disband them and the Education Colleges from which they sprang. Unfortunately this system is integral to allowing working mommies to have 1.7 children without having to take responsibility for raising them. Of course that requires the kids to survive. In the UK last week a 9 year old committed suicide as a result of being bullied coupled with parents unwilling to deal with the problem and teachers ignoring it.

Homeschool or die.

Anonymous scoobius dubious March 06, 2013 7:08 AM  

"Now lets contemplate the consequences of importing tens of millions of these uneducated quasi-illiterates with zero familiarity knowledge of the Western political tradition and giving them citizenship and the right to vote. On what planet does anyone possibly think this is going to lead to any sort of improvement in the national well-being?"

The idea never was to improve the national well-being. The idea was, and is, to disempower the goyim. Jack and Suzie will have to go to school with Malik and Hector and Mohammed, where Jack will get beat up and Suzie will hopefully get raped by Malik. Meanwhile Zvi and Ari will go to the magnet school. All's right with the world.

OK quick: which cup is the ball under now?

Care to bet $20 on your pick?

Anonymous DrTorch March 06, 2013 7:12 AM  

"The concept of group schooling is fundamentally flawed from the start."

That's not true. You just have to be careful as to who's in the group.

Group schooling is most certainly effective under the right conditions. And far better for individuals who are extroverts than being confined to a library carrel every day.

Anonymous scoobius dubious March 06, 2013 7:19 AM  

"You just have to be careful as to who's in the group."

But since the law does its best to forbid you to be careful who's in the group...

Blogger tz March 06, 2013 7:46 AM  

When it was Nuns as teachers and Jesuits as principals, it wasn't so bad, but they had different goals, and a vow of poverty, chastity, and obedience would insure no educrat would want to teach.

Vox, you are the least ant-equalitarian out there. It is not equalitarian to treat unequal things as if they are equal.

I would welcome anyone with Christian morality, industrious and libertarian (today, this excludes most WASPs! And when Europe collapses, those who will want to come here will have the same mindset).

I would also note that at least an illiterate Mexican immigrant doesn't have a useless degree and $100k in student slave debt. And they at least desire to work. This would be a decline how exactly? The Mexican at least has a chance at being educated and informed. The Native's stupidity goes very deep.

Blogger tz March 06, 2013 7:52 AM  

Put differently, if an angel or alien race zapped the Americas and swapped out the feminist and feminized male USA citizens with an illiterate from south of the border, we would have a glorious recovery and rebirth almost immediately.

Anonymous scoobius dubious March 06, 2013 8:02 AM  

"we would have a glorious recovery and rebirth almost immediately."

Like the ones that we readily observe all the time, in the countries which the dirt-monkeys have been fleeing for the past few generations. Yeah, that makes sense.


Anonymous scoobius dubious March 06, 2013 8:06 AM  

"we would have a glorious recovery"

Let me get this straight. You wish to replace the native population with a bunch of shit-colored foreigners from a completely different ethne and culture, and yet also simultaneously use the word "we". Who is this "we" you're talking about?

Anonymous Stilicho March 06, 2013 8:06 AM  

The feminization and bureaucratization of the schools has destroyed them and greatly inflated costs. (Bureaucracy required to manage the less competent and less confident among the women teachers?) They now show a total ignorance about what is important and hide behind zero tolerance policies to help incompetent administrators make decisions. There is no common sense.

Bureaucracy is the refuge of the incompetent.

Anonymous Josh March 06, 2013 8:10 AM  

Scoobius/JQP, did your wife leave you for an Asian blaxican rabbi?

Anonymous scoobius "now with extra JQP!!" dubious March 06, 2013 8:12 AM  

Apparently my wife left me for this creature named JQP whom I've never heard of.

Anonymous Stilicho March 06, 2013 8:12 AM  

More to the point regarding democratization, it must always fail where it is based upon the false notion of treating unequal things as equal. Likewise for democracy as a political system. It is doomed ab initio if it insists on treating unequal things (people, cultures, etc.) as equal. Unequal may mean one is better than another; it may mean merely different, or any permutation in between, but you ignore it at your peril.

Anonymous Stilicho March 06, 2013 8:15 AM  

Scoobius/JQP, did your wife leave you for an Asian blaxican rabbi?

I just assumed he lives in NYC or LA. It'll get to you after a while.

Blogger tz March 06, 2013 8:18 AM  

@sd - what part of "swapped out the feminists" don't you comprehend?

Yes. If every feminist - male and female in the USA were to disappear without being replaced it would be better, but I'll take a swap. The feminists would adapt or die, but do it below the border.

Anonymous scoobius "get me JQP on line 2!" dubious March 06, 2013 8:22 AM  

"did your wife leave you for an Asian blaxican rabbi?"

No, but my country left me for something rather a lot like that.

I blame Emmanuel Celler. And his backers. Hmm, wonder who they could be, and what their motives were. It's a mystery, like so many things in life.





Anonymous hardscrabble farmer March 06, 2013 8:23 AM  

Using logical arguments or rational thinking with the Left (SWPL's,Neo-Marxists, FemiNazis,whatever) is like shouting at a deaf person to get them to hear you.

It simply doesn't work.

Not now, not ever.

Sugaring is in full swing right now, so I'm off to commit my own particular form of racial discrimination by tapping only sugar maples rather than hemlocks and beech trees, even though they all bleed sap and are equal as trees, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Of course only one produces the sweet stuff worthy of consumption, but allow me to live in my world of maple privilege a while longer...

Blogger tz March 06, 2013 8:24 AM  

Peter Kreeft has a youtube of a lecture - democracy v.s.aristocracy and looks at cs Lewis on the topic. In summary, democrats need aristocrats to select from.

He doesn't go into the tendency to elect magnificent barbarians over wise philosophers.

But that is why a constitution needs to separate and balance and disperse the power of the people (mob) as much as anything else.

Blogger JD Curtis March 06, 2013 8:24 AM  

Protestant High Schools Are Better

Anonymous scoobius "who's afraid of JQP woolf?" dubious March 06, 2013 8:33 AM  

From JDC's link...

"students who attend and graduate from private, Protestant high schools receive double motivation to volunteer: not only are they provided the greatest number of connections to volunteer opportunities, they also likely more likely to "internalize" a sense of civic duty and carry it with them into adulthood."

Well, that means they're screwed. Volunteer for... what? More Bush/Obama international monkeyshines? Soup kitchens for foreign invaders, to help them more efficiently invade? Maternity wards for invaders who breed like cockroaches? What?

And a-one, and a-two, and a-three, sing it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_0sg0XDfmg

Anonymous dh March 06, 2013 8:45 AM  

What is the case for believing this is going to do anything but hasten the decline and fall of the United States?

The basis is:

1. We've done this repeatedly, and continually, for many decades. We've had huge waves of immigration, from various underclass producing countries for generations.

2. We have not fallen yet.

There is nothing especially heinous about the current waves of (illegal) immigration. If anything, it's been less painful than others.

Anonymous dh March 06, 2013 8:49 AM  

OCS:

As someone who recently graduated with a bachelor's in computer science from a private Catholic university, I must say that being duped makes me feel incredibly stupid. Thankfully I came out of that idiotic money sink with nary a debt or loan to repay, but boy is it incredibly pointless.

Just curious if this was a BA or BS? Some of the more treacherous private schools are pushing BA degrees in place of the BS degree, in areas that have no business being a BA program.

Anonymous VD March 06, 2013 8:50 AM  

We've done this repeatedly, and continually, for many decades. We've had huge waves of immigration, from various underclass producing countries for generations.

Smaller waves from less incompatible and more distant cultures. Waves which were followed by 70-year moratoriums on continued mass immigration.

We have not fallen yet.

Seriously? Think about the consequences of that logic.

Anonymous Porky March 06, 2013 8:52 AM  

To which my response is: precisely how mediocre do you believe yourself to be that you are not?

That is a poorly constructed sentence.

Anonymous Joe Doakes March 06, 2013 8:52 AM  

Every discussion of education policy founders on the same rock: What to do with the dummies?

Smart and ambitious kids will always thrive and lead. Doctors. Engineers. Public education doesn't help them, it harms them with boredom but they learn outside class or, if lucky, in special academies.

Smart but lazy kids will drift with mediocre kids into the middle class. Bureaucrats. Insurance agents. Public education in the 60's suited them.

What to do with the dummies? Used to be, any moron could survive and raise a family as a farmer with a mule, factory drone, miner. Those jobs are gone and not coming back so those kids now need to be educated for better jobs.

But dummies aren't smart enough to keep up in class so the teacher slows to the dumbest-student level. Add in "mainstreaming" of mentally handicapped students into class and we're literally setting our societal educational standards at the moron level.

No Child Left Behind sounds great. Is it, really?
.

Blogger W.LindsayWheeler March 06, 2013 8:54 AM  

Rebellion, rebellion, rebellion.

Is it no wonder Vox, that you were an Atheist when young. Isn't Atheism the product of your rebellion due to your high intelligence.

Anything that smacks of "authority", I've noticed, you rebel. You teach rebellion. As befits a Protestant. You are in constant "rebellion".

Let me ask you Vox, How does Culture form? What is culture? Is culture the product of Rebellion? How do you suppose "culture" exists upon everybody does their own thing in homeschooling?

Public Schools are an integral part of Western Culture. Public Schooling in America has its roots in Catholic elementary education.

Public, community, schools are the basis of Western Culture. When you attack Public Schooling, or the institution of it, you are attacking Western Culture. Your approach to everything is an act of Rebellion. You can't stop rebelling. Is society based on rebelling?

No, you're an individual living in a foreign country. You're not part of the social fabric of Italian culture. You're life is amongst the techno elite who live individualistic lives. You are NOT a member of a group. Your perspective is that of a rebellious individual and that is your conclusions based on your mental/psychological profile.

Man is a "social animal". You can't stand that. You have no place for that. Everyone of your positions, you were once a libertarian, is about feeding your anarchist bent. Libertarianism is not how society works or culture is lived.

Anonymous dh March 06, 2013 8:54 AM  

It simply doesn't work.

It can work, however, most leftists who are somewhat intelligent are unwilling to have any debate on these grounds without first receiving a proposal for actual world policy.

Which is say, fine, lament universal education, but also you must propose policy that would effectively change the system to meet your definition of acceptable.

What does that look like? How do you accomplish that? If the goals/requirements are a caste based education system, how do you propose to get there?

Simply having an opinion and a few data points to make the case that status quo is bad is not the same as proposing changes that will rectify the situation. In this particular case, the inevitable conclusion becomes that the underclass is simply to large. And that presents other discussions that I find libertarians and right-of-center ideologues are unlikely to want to tackle.

Anonymous dh March 06, 2013 9:05 AM  

But dummies aren't smart enough to keep up in class so the teacher slows to the dumbest-student level. Add in "mainstreaming" of mentally handicapped students into class and we're literally setting our societal educational standards at the moron level.

This is basically it. The Michelle Rhee data-driven reformer set comes up against a wall when they ultimately realize that (1) it doesn't matter what teachers you have, (2) it doesn't matter what school system you have, (3) it doesn't matter how hard you flog teachers, administrators, or the janitors it's very difficult or impossible to move the needle consistently above "average".

The low hanging fruit is often the first thing that reformers can accomplish. Toss out the basically unqualified/lazy/corrupt teachers. Bring in a newer batch of a little bit more qualified teachers. Improve a few administrative things.

But within a few years, all of the gains either peter out or simply reverse themselves. Many of the gains simply turn out to have been fraudulent - either teachers working the system (i.e. better test preparation) or flat out cheating. The rest of the movement are usually best explained by the natural fluctuations of the mean intelligence of the students in the class. I would imagine, with a large enough dataset, the year over year net aggregate test performance was flat, within a small margin error. It's all average, to the degree that the test accurately measures anything.

The question remains what to do with the bottom quartile of performers. Or maybe the bottom third.

Anonymous Cryan Ryan March 06, 2013 9:09 AM  

Twas once a bright eyed young hick,

He was punctual but didn't learn a lick.

He always gave it his best,

But then flunked every test,

Turned out his skull was quite thick.

Anonymous Josh March 06, 2013 9:11 AM  

Public Schools are an integral part of Western Culture. Public Schooling in America has its roots in Catholic elementary education.

You historical illiterate, public schools in America were started as a counterweight to catholic parochial schools. Specially to prevent the catholics from indoctrinating the next generation.

Anonymous scoobius "JQP et mon droit" dubious March 06, 2013 9:12 AM  

"What does that look like? How do you accomplish that?"

It isn't hard. America is a white, Christian society; so you simply deport all the non-whites and the non-Christians, and the issue kind of solves itself.

Remind yourself: why did non-whites want to come here in the first place? Oh yeah, right, now I remember -- it's because whites make a lot of really cool stuff that non-whites aren't capable of making themselves, and they want in on the action. Well too fucking bad.

Here's a thought experiment. Remember this old song?

New York, London, Paris, Munich,
Everybody talk about... pop muzik!

Okay, now replace all the white-people city names with the names of equally famous mestizo-built cities, and a style of mestizo muzik that's worth "everybody" talking about.

Oh that's right, you can't, can you. Because mestizos don't build nice cities that other people would like to live in, do they, just poor, shit-filled monkey-holes; and they don't have any musical styles that everybody else wants to talk about. Remember the Old Mestizo Space Program? Of course you don't. They can't even build their own maternity wards for their endless cockroaches, they have to invade ours.

You do the math. Unless, of course, you're a mestizo.

Anonymous Josh March 06, 2013 9:13 AM  

Man is a "social animal". You can't stand that. You have no place for that. Everyone of your positions, you were once a libertarian, is about feeding your anarchist bent. Libertarianism is not how society works or culture is lived.

Wheeler, have you met Asher? I think you guys would get along well.

Anonymous dh March 06, 2013 9:14 AM  

Smaller waves from less incompatible and more distant cultures. Waves which were followed by 70-year moratoriums on continued mass immigration.

I don't think you can support the claim that our preceding immigration waves were from less foreign sources. I don't think that your present rhetoric regarding metzo's is very much different from all the previous complaints of past generations. Certainly the educational attainment has been basically the same - which is zero for about a generation or so.

Secondly, you are entirely flawed in your premise regarding a moratorium. We have a present day moratorium on mass immigration. The official policy cannot be the only thing you consider, you must also consider the actual policy.

Seriously? Think about the consequences of that logic.

I have, I don't see a problem. Every thing you don't like is the harbinger of a collapse, yet, the status quo has not changed in two generations, and the collapse hasn't happened.

It is not enough to just say something bad will happen. Any idiot can and does say that.

Anonymous dh March 06, 2013 9:16 AM  

It isn't hard. America is a white, Christian society; so you simply deport all the non-whites and the non-Christians, and the issue kind of solves itself.

Okay, how? Door to door? Do you use cattle car trains? Airline tickets?

This is where the dread ilk fail. Explain to me how you implement this without institution of a police state.

Blogger A March 06, 2013 9:22 AM  

I agree that education in the U.S. is abysmal. I don't even know why anyone would bother to look at the Mexican system. I am convinced that this is a demographic issue, though. One doesn't hear too much about failing Asian schools, although I hear them lament the lack of creativity of their young, or failing German schools, places where the population is more homogeneous.

I taught in an average suburban school on the edge of the city and almost all of my problem students were black and hispanic. Some of the white kids were dumb, absolutely, but they were never a problem in the class. I later taught at an upper middle class suburban school well outside of the city and the kids were much farther than the previous school in their competency. This school was mostly white, with a few Asians sprinkled into the mix, and a handful of black kids, who basically behaved as white kids would. That school felt like what a school should be like, where the kids were highly motivated to do well and a pleasure to work with. I should mention both schools were high schools.

I was also an observer for a semester at a city school. 98% of the population there was black, ghetto black. There were cops in the hallways, random fights broke out in between every class, the kids ran around like animals trying to escape their classes, teachers shut and locked their doors when class started and kids would be picked up in a hall sweep. When a fire alarm drill went off, the kids basically ran like hell out of the school, the teachers didn't even bother to see who made it out or not because the task was impossible. Kids were constantly disrespectful, like they wanted to assault you kind of way, not just talking back. The kids were obsessed with everything thug, more than half the school population dropped out the day they hit 16.

I am convinced that city schools serve as a political machine for aspiring city politicians and they help out welfare and ghetto families by holding onto their wild children as a babysitting service. The parents of these kids fully expected the school to raise their children, an impossible task in reality, some kind of socialist dream of the state taking care of everything for you. It's one thing to read the statistics, but it's a whole new world once you step into that hellhole and see the actual reality of no-learning.

Anonymous dh March 06, 2013 9:24 AM  

It isn't hard. America is a white, Christian society; so you simply deport all the non-whites and the non-Christians, and the issue kind of solves itself.

I will tell you why this is interesting and important to me.

Virtually anyone who would read here would agree that welfare is generally bad. Whatever social safety should exist should be voluntarily funded and charitably driven. I actually am more or less okay with that.

Virtually anyone who would read here would agree that people on illegal drugs shouldn't be given this assistance, it's a bad idea. Why should my charity fund a drug habit?

This line of thinking led Florida to implement drug testing for those people receiving and applying for any sort of public assistance. A completely reasonable requirement in the abstract.

Setting aside litigation, it was a colossal failure, in the sense that it cost a staggering amount of money, and found very few people who were trying to obtain benefits while on drugs.

This is why you should propose policy. Not an idea. Ideas are easy. Policy is not.

Anonymous Josh March 06, 2013 9:32 AM  

This is where the dread ilk fail. Explain to me how you implement this without institution of a police state.

Well, my solution would be to end all welfare benefits and emergency care for illegals. And let the states take care of it (like Alabama). You end welfare, food stamps, public housing/section 8, and public schools and public health clinics, and they leave on their own. It's not necessary to send swat teams into the barrios.

Anonymous Mike43 March 06, 2013 9:33 AM  

"The question remains what to do with the bottom quartile of performers. Or maybe the bottom third."

30 years ago, there were classes that effectively educated and trained this population. Now, they are in regular classes and encouraged to go to college. I have had these students tell me, with a straight face, that they were going to the NBA, NFL, Med school, vet school or law school. And they quasi believe it. Obviously, they're in for a big disappointment.

Anonymous Josh March 06, 2013 9:34 AM  

Setting aside litigation, it was a colossal failure, in the sense that it cost a staggering amount of money, and found very few people who were trying to obtain benefits while on drugs.

Would it be a possibility that drug users didn't bother to apply because they knew they would not qualify?

OpenID freeonus March 06, 2013 9:35 AM  

@OCS

I understand that you feel your degree was a waste of time. I've been in the field for 30 years and even by year 3 it was the ability to learn independently to keep up with changes that was the key to success. You've shown that you can do that already so make sure that you make that clear to prospective employers.

I wish the best for you!

Anonymous JartStar March 06, 2013 9:39 AM  

What matters more than the type of schooling is if the parents are still married and attend church weekly. The numbers show the GPA of the kids are all the same with this background including home schooled kids.

*average ORU homeschooler’s GPA was 3.02
*Examining current religious attendance and structure of family of origin combined, students from always-intact married families who attend religious services at least weekly have an average GPA of 3.1

There are two other significant factors which increase kids GPAs which are being college educated and higher income. The demographics on home schooling parents show they are the "cream of the crop" for parents who have kids with good GPAs. Or in liberal terms: Advantaged.

American schools are weighed down by a massive underclass as dh has pointed out which skews the results downward dramatically. When looking at US schools the Advantaged do as well as nearly anywhere, and our Disadvantage do as poorly as everywhere else too, the issue is that we have an inordinately high amount of Disadvantaged compared to many First World countries.

Anonymous James May March 06, 2013 9:42 AM  

DH, here is what I recommend. Google Flying Men of the Yungas. Then Google Civil War bridges. These were often railroad bridges and put up in a matter of days. This is called context and is a simple comparison.

During the Civil War, a handful of Americans could and did build ironclads with limited resources and in a matter of weeks. Look up CSS Arkansas. Try that on someone from the Third World today with a blueprint.

You are seeing what you want to see, without regard for what a simple map and what lies within the boundaries of that map reveals. This is called political correctness, a monstrous form of apology based on race and gender.

Neither the sun nor rain nor stars gives a crap about that. New York 100 years ago was more modern than Cairo today. America will fall into ruin if you transport 150 million from the Third World here, and that is in the process of happening. Please stop calling reality itself racist and telling us water is dry because it is quite literally killing us.

Anonymous dh March 06, 2013 9:45 AM  

Well, my solution would be to end all welfare benefits and emergency care for illegals. And let the states take care of it (like Alabama). You end welfare, food stamps, public housing/section 8, and public schools and public health clinics, and they leave on their own. It's not necessary to send swat teams into the barrios.

First off, facts:

A. Do you know that you can't get Section 8 unless you are a citizen, today?
B. Do you know that you can't get food stamps unless you are not a citizen?
C. Do you know that you can't get Medicaid in 44 states if you are not a citizen?

It's obviously not working.

Secondly, regarding, Alabama, of course it's estimated, but more than half of estimated 135k illegals have apparently left Alabama. Self-deportation will get rid of the low hanging fruit, for sure, but then what?

(And, by the way, to get to that 50% level, actual citizens in Alabama have to 'show me your papers' quite a lot. It's certainly not a police state, but it's also a long way in the wrong direction from freedom. And, at the same time, they dramatically inhibited the right of free association. Alabamians have less of the right of free association than before. Not exactly freedom friendly.)

So what's next?

Anonymous dh March 06, 2013 9:46 AM  

Would it be a possibility that drug users didn't bother to apply because they knew they would not qualify?

Good question. Florida saw the same increase in applications that other states did. It is probably difficult to say for sure since overall the applicant pool has been increasing for the last 5-6 years.

They also tested current recipients - people who had been having benefits already - and found the same thing.

Anonymous dh March 06, 2013 9:49 AM  

DH, here is what I recommend. Google Flying Men of the Yungas. Then Google Civil War bridges. These were often railroad bridges and put up in a matter of days. This is called context and is a simple comparison.

What exactly are you measuring? I don't get what you are trying to say. That previous generations of immigrants took direction from elites better? Can you say it more clearly?

Anonymous earthman March 06, 2013 9:51 AM  

It is called Self Deportation:
Self-deportation would be the result of attrition, which is achieved simply by enforcing existing law prohibiting the hiring of illegal aliens. If they cannot get work here, they will stop coming, or if they are already here they will leave. You take away the gravy train and they will scuttle back from whence they came. But, that takes a culture that cares about its survival and also that would mean you'd have to mow your own lawn, clean your own house and wipe your kids butt. How middle class.

Anonymous dh March 06, 2013 9:52 AM  

There are two other significant factors which increase kids GPAs which are being college educated and higher income. The demographics on home schooling parents show they are the "cream of the crop" for parents who have kids with good GPAs. Or in liberal terms: Advantaged.

You got it. The biggest factor is intelligence. College education is a somewhat reasonable proxy for this measure for the parents (less so every day). The next biggest factor is the parental involvement. After that is the teacher, and then the school.

Anonymous dh March 06, 2013 9:53 AM  

Self-deportation would be the result of attrition, which is achieved simply by enforcing existing law prohibiting the hiring of illegal aliens. If they cannot get work here, they will stop coming, or if they are already here they will leave. You take away the gravy train and they will scuttle back from whence they came. But, that takes a culture that cares about its survival and also that would mean you'd have to mow your own lawn, clean your own house and wipe your kids butt. How middle class.
This is doesn't hold true. Because 1 or 2 legal earners often support many many illegals.

Self-deportation is a useful tool for a certain amount of illegals - the low hanging fruit.

Anonymous alexcurylo March 06, 2013 9:55 AM  

@OCS

Dude, this isn't really that new a thing. I got that degree in 1991, and even at the time I felt that it had been mostly a waste of time aside from a) the piece of paper let me get a work visa outside Canada without hassles and b) I had some very nice co-op work terms that made my resume not pathetic compared to someone who'd been actually working.

In 2013 now that we have teh Intertubes, neither is valid. Clueful employers in my particular specialization, Apple iOS devices, don't even ask for a resume these days never mind a degree, just "What's your github account?" and "What's your Stack Overflow handle?" Programming is too intrinsically meritocratic to succumb for long to credentialism, because YOUR CODE WORKS OR IT DOESN'T no matter what your credentials or lack thereof, and with the alternatives mentioned above you can demonstrate your competence without credentials. I know 12 year olds (ok, *a* 12 year old) with multiple apps on the App Store already -- think she'll go to college? I doubt she'll bother finishing high school, never mind college.

That said, there are quite good employers that still worship at the feet of credentialism. If your grades are stellar -- hell, even if they're not -- I would strongly encourage you to apply to Google, for instance. They're getting more sensible, but last I heard they were still putting a foolish amount of emphasis on academic grades instead of related experience, and a stint there will certainly look good on your resume.

Anonymous Josh March 06, 2013 9:57 AM  

Secondly, regarding, Alabama, of course it's estimated, but more than half of estimated 135k illegals have apparently left Alabama. Self-deportation will get rid of the low hanging fruit, for sure, but then what?

Half is a very good start.

Anonymous scoobius "that darn JQP!" dubious March 06, 2013 9:58 AM  

dh: "I don't think you can support the claim that our preceding immigration waves were from less foreign sources. I don't think that your present rhetoric regarding metzo's is very much different from all the previous complaints of past generations."

Still waiting for them mestizos to build their equivalents of Georgetown, Fordham, Notre Dame, St. John's, Marymount, Holy Cross, and the zillion middlebrow white-ethnic Catholic colleges which train up a sturdy reliable middle class and have done so on their own dime for a dog's age. Given their numbers and proportions and increasing loudness, the mestizos would have to build about eight Georgetowns just to ante up. Hmm, somehow they haven't. Dey love dem some Sabado Gigante though, don't dey.

Still waiting for all those mendicant third-world immigrants, who are today nowhere near as poor and underfunded as the nineteenth-century Irish, to build their own systems of hospitals, grammar schools, high schools, colleges, poor-relief societies, the way the white-ethnic Catholic immigrants did. Where is famous Mencius University, with its world-reknowned scholarship program for low-income white kids? Why can't I send my kids for free dental treatment at world-famous Chichen Itza Children's Hospital in Arizona?

As Bert Brecht put it, "Oh you know why, oh you know why..."

Anonymous dh March 06, 2013 10:03 AM  

Still waiting for all those mendicant third-world immigrants, who are today nowhere near as poor and underfunded as the nineteenth-century Irish, to build their own systems of hospitals, grammar schools, high schools, colleges, poor-relief societies, the way the white-ethnic Catholic immigrants did. Where is famous Mencius University, with its world-reknowned scholarship program for low-income white kids? Why can't I send my kids for free dental treatment at world-famous Chichen Itza Children's Hospital in Arizona?

They only had to build those because of perceived (real or not) oppression from the protestant minority. There lacks incentive.

Secondly, right now is the time when this would be starting. The average age of Latinos is very young. The 2nd generation is happening right now.

Finally, I do think you have to adapt whatever expectations you have to whats going on in the world right now. Time will tell if the 2nd generation of the last big wave measures up historically and with their anglo peers. That bar is not very high. (I.e. no one is building new Fordhams or Georgetowns).

Anonymous dh March 06, 2013 10:04 AM  

Half is a very good start.

Okay, so what about the other half?

This is where the fail part comes in. Policy is hard. Making policy that doesn't break a few eggs, even harder.

Anonymous Godfrey March 06, 2013 10:06 AM  

“How is it possible that I hand over a child for six hours every day, five days a week, and you give me back someone who is basically illiterate?”


Simple, it's not about education.

Anonymous The other skeptic March 06, 2013 10:11 AM  

OK: But since Chavez and the Castros have demonstrated how to amass a real fortune, not the penny-ante stuff that Gore or Clinton did, when can we expect the US political class to go the Chavez route?

Anonymous Cryan Ryan March 06, 2013 10:12 AM  

My neighbor has a cat.

He doesn't want the cat.

His wife feeds the cat.

In America, men don't want the illegals, but the female vote continues to feed the illegals.

Thus, the illegals will not leave. And why should they?

Reverse women's suffrage and there is no issue. And a lot of other problems go poof.

Anonymous joe doakes March 06, 2013 10:13 AM  

dh: you pointed out society hasn't collapsed yet.

Vox asked you to think about that logic.

You said you had and were comfortable with it.

In other words, you are comfortable adding straws to the camel's back until it breaks. Why? Because you think it'll never break? Or you hope it does? Or you don't care because you're moving to Italy?

Why does the prospect of the collapse of American society comfort you when it terrifies the rest of us?
.

Anonymous earthman March 06, 2013 10:14 AM  

"Self-deportation is a useful tool for a certain amount of illegals - the low hanging fruit."

Seems to be a good place to start. No one said it wouldn't be hard and take commitment.
But, short of the police-state you mentioned this is a humane way to deal with illegal aliens and their families. There is no single solution to this complex problem that works 100% of the time, right now. Like I said, it takes a culture that cares about it's survival. The present culture in the United States does not care about it's survival.

Anonymous James May March 06, 2013 10:15 AM  

DH, with all due respect, you're in denial. Look at the East India Company. A tiny, tiny minority in the 18th century in India. Their influence and power, though originally without access to any of the seats of power or institution, echo to this day. And they never even came close to being anything but a tiny minority.

People from India have been in the UK since 1800. Crickets. It is what it is. Accept it. It's called history. I mean actual history, not the liberal woulda, coulda, shoulda one with blame and excuses that tells me Haitians are unlucky rocket scientists. Sure, Haiti's small. England's small. Singapore's small. Japan's small. It's not the meat it's the motion.

Anonymous Josh March 06, 2013 10:16 AM  

Secondly, right now is the time when this would be starting. The average age of Latinos is very young. The 2nd generation is happening right now.

There have been Mexican-Americans for the post 150+ years, and their achievements have been significantly lower than other ethnicities (except maybe blacks). Steve sailer has written extensively on the lack of Mexican-American achievement.

Anonymous James May March 06, 2013 10:23 AM  

DH, what elites were holding Cortes' hand? Cortes was, in Spanish terms, practically a nobody. In that case, the elites then actually held him back. When unleashed, it turned out he may have been a Machiavellian genius of his age, if not also small unit combined arms tactics of the era.

What I'm measuring is results, without the rose colored Critical Pedagogy glasses. And no, I can't say it more clearly. After water is wet, you're on your own. There's an actual argument, and there's trolling for effect. Present an actual argument, with results. 5,000 years of civilization is screaming at you and your giving me PC fantasy scenarios no where evident in human history.

Blogger JartStar March 06, 2013 10:25 AM  

If scoobius dubious is JQP he's gone sober and made the most remarkable writing transformation I've ever seen, but it's possible I suppose. The lack of orality makes me doubt that it's him...

Blogger Markku March 06, 2013 10:27 AM  

Since there was an amount of criticism at the end of the older thread about the Scoobius / JQP hypothesis, and the commenter said that he only caught the tail end of the saga:

It wasn't always like that. We all were in friendly terms for years. He just took strong exception to Game, tempers became frayed, and all that unpleasantness happened.

Anonymous Stilicho March 06, 2013 10:30 AM  

Public Schooling in America has its roots in Catholic elementary education.

The the papists have even more to answer for

Your approach to everything is an act of Rebellion. You can't stop rebelling.

Rebellion against tyranny is obedience to God.

Anonymous Stilicho March 06, 2013 10:35 AM  

First off, facts:

A. Do you know that you can't get Section 8 unless you are a citizen, today?
B. Do you know that you can't get food stamps unless you are not a citizen?
C. Do you know that you can't get Medicaid in 44 states if you are not a citizen?

It's obviously not working.


Hey dh, do you know that you can't be in this country unless you are a citizen or have permission to be here?

Anonymous scoobius "now is the winter of our JQP" dubious March 06, 2013 10:36 AM  

"no one is building new Fordhams or Georgetowns"

No one was building Georgetown until people started building it. What sort of argument is that?

I'm peering hither and yon across this vast, rich land, filled with 50 million+ shit-colored mooching Latinos. I see no sign of Guadalupe University being under construction. Anywhere. But apparently diversity is strength. Al Gore told me so, right before he cut off the microphone and refused to take further questions.

A bunch of religiously-oppressed, famine-addled Irishmen showed up in America in the 1840s, and within about a decade these ignorant papist morons had somehow managed to found schools, churches, hospitals, colleges, and a world-famous art museum.

Still waiting for the Little Brown Schoolhouse, and it's been over a century. But, why would they even bother to build it? Los Gringos feed them by hand.

Asians invaded and overwhelmed the University of California, which wasn't built for them. Where is famous Shen Pu-hai University, where my kids can get a scholarship from Asian generosity and gratitude for all America has given them?


Anonymous The other skeptic March 06, 2013 10:41 AM  

Bullied white boy was killed by black thugs and the media is hiding it.

That is another consequence of the democratization process.

Anonymous dh March 06, 2013 10:50 AM  

In other words, you are comfortable adding straws to the camel's back until it breaks. Why? Because you think it'll never break? Or you hope it does? Or you don't care because you're moving to Italy?

Why does the prospect of the collapse of American society comfort you when it terrifies the rest of us?


The fact that America will collapse one day may or may not have anything to do with the straws on the back. You presume to show that some future collapse will be the result of one or a number of the straws, which is logically incoherent.

The fact is that the metaphorical straw may never come.

What we have is history as a guide. And so far the collapse hasn't happened. We are not materially closer to a collapse than at any other point in time.

Now, if you want to make the case that the status quo isn't really status quo, and we are going to collapse, that's fine. Please make your case.

But you cannot claim that at some future point the sun will come up, and then tomorrow at sunrise, when the sun comes up, jump for joy at the powers of your predictive reasoning.

A future collapse or failure of America, which of course will happen at some point, may or may not be linked to something we are discussion today. But that is not a self-proving notion.

Anonymous dh March 06, 2013 10:52 AM  

No one was building Georgetown until people started building it. What sort of argument is that?

I mean our elite class today isn't building universities. They are cooking corporate books, writing cell phone apps, and doing other worthless things.

Comparing today's present 2nd generation underclass to a generally more productive society of 150 years ago is not a valid comparison. You must compare them to today's current elite class.

Basically the argument is that 5 generations ago the immigrants were a better class than what we have now.

But my counter argument is that no, generally all people 5 generations ago were a better class than what we have now.

Anonymous RC March 06, 2013 11:04 AM  

This is where the dread ilk fail. Explain to me how you implement this without institution of a police state." - dh

Eisenhower showed the way: Operation Wetback.

Anonymous DrTorch March 06, 2013 11:09 AM  

Bullied white boy was killed by black thugs and the media is hiding it.

That is another consequence of the democratization process.


Three things.

1. You're right, this is democratization, not necessarily race.

2. Reading Laura Ingalls Wilder's "Farmer Boy" to my son at bedtime. First few chapters talks about big teenage boys who "thrash" their teacher, who ends up dead b/c of it. The father delights that his sons are such tough ruffians.

3. I don't know what these parents are waiting for, but if this happened to my family, there wouldn't be a concern about pressing charges on the culprits. Although out of respect to the parents, I do understand that some dishes are best served cold.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis March 06, 2013 11:20 AM  

But my counter argument is that no, generally all people 5 generations ago were a better class than what we have now.

I am inclined to agree with dh on this assessment.

Anonymous dh March 06, 2013 11:22 AM  

Eisenhower showed the way: Operation Wetback.

So a vote for police state, door to door checks, paper's please roadblocks.

Anonymous Alexander March 06, 2013 11:26 AM  

DH,

Ban dual citizenship. Ban sponsoring non-minor family members for green cards. In fact, gum up the entire green-card and residency bureaucracy.

Cut the welfare programs to the bone. You're joking if you think that citizenship actually restricts these programs.

Cut out all non-English language assistance in the public sector. No press 2.

If we accept that the SSN is a de facto national identity number that's not going away, remove the loopholes that allow getting any sort of public identification without having an SSN. Same with tax forms. Then you can throw them out for not paying taxes.

While the government can't go around saying 'show me your papers', do not prosecute private citizens for doing so. If a store owner demands proof of citizenship before doing business, that's up to its customers to decide if they want to keep patronizing the store, not the DOJ.

Actually do one of the things required of the federal government and man the border. Threaten to cut off any aid to Mexico unless they get on board with this. Follow through if necessary.

When an illegal decides not to lay low and violently brings himself to the attention of the authorities, expel him from the country.

We'll see how much of the 'low hanging fruit' that gets rid of and move on from there, shall we?

Anonymous paleopaleo March 06, 2013 11:36 AM  

dh said, "But my counter argument is that no, generally all people 5 generations ago were a better class than what we have now."

And how did we get here? What has contributed to this overall decline? If you don't think third-world immigration is at least in part to blame you've never been to a California elementary school.

We are living in the midst of a downward spiral caused, at least in part, by semi-literate, un-assimilatable third worlders who have contributed to the awful decline we see in our public schools.

The decline in schools results in overall decline.

The other reason IMO was socialist academics fleeing WWII era Europe to the U.S. university.

These are the two primary reasons for American decline.

Anonymous dh March 06, 2013 11:45 AM  

Cut the welfare programs to the bone. You're joking if you think that citizenship actually restricts these programs.
They do. The real way this happens is anchor babies. Citizens. That's the real problem here.

While the government can't go around saying 'show me your papers', do not prosecute private citizens for doing so. If a store owner demands proof of citizenship before doing business, that's up to its customers to decide if they want to keep patronizing the store, not the DOJ.
This is already legal. Completely ineffective.

Actually do one of the things required of the federal government and man the border. Threaten to cut off any aid to Mexico unless they get on board with this. Follow through if necessary.
Almost 100% of the aid we sent (about $50B total) is to enforce drug programs. This is money Mexico would already like to get rid of, because it compels them to have a civil war against the cartels.

Anyways, this number is dwarfed by private remittances. The official number is about $70B total. That's low by half at least. For every dollar we send to the drug warriors, workers send back $2. Are you going to stop that? How?

When an illegal decides not to lay low and violently brings himself to the attention of the authorities, expel him from the country.
That is Obama's policy right now. If you don't commit an overt violent or drug crime, you stay until otherwise acted upon by an outside force.

We'll see how much of the 'low hanging fruit' that gets rid of and move on from there, shall we?

You haven't proposed anything that's not already happening. Even with measures more stringent than what you are proposing, "self-deportation" is a failure.

If you best idea is "let the private market" regulate it, you are a fool. Business owners already support illegal immigration. Why would they stop now?

Blogger JartStar March 06, 2013 11:46 AM  

So a vote for police state, door to door checks, paper's please roadblocks.

I don't know if Vox wanted to go all of the way with the plan, but certainly said it was possible to do this. I think most libertarians should recoil from such measures as once they are put in place they are nearly impossible to unwind.

Anonymous dh March 06, 2013 11:49 AM  

I don't know if Vox wanted to go all of the way with the plan, but certainly said it was possible to do this. I think most libertarians should recoil from such measures as once they are put in place they are nearly impossible to unwind.

Exactly. Which brings us back to the dread ilks (and VD's) biggest ongoing failure. How do you implement a policy that achieves your end goal without implementing a police state?

Anonymous Alexander March 06, 2013 12:07 PM  

1. Agree to disagree then. I believe that there is large-scale fraud on the entitlements. You believe there is not. I can only go with my own lying eyes on this one.

2. Policy is not policy. You can insist on the numbers but I don't believe it. I recognize though that this puts us at a standstill in terms of debate. Can it suffice that we at least agree that that much should be happening, even if we disagree on how effective it is in solving the entire problem and how much of it is actually put into practice? Same with the DOJ - if a store owner here demanded proof of citizenship, he'd be up to his ass in legal bullshit. The government would support this.

3. The dollars flowing out from workers is a fair point, but I have to ask. If regulating interstate commerce is reason for our government to do absolutely anything it wants, then surely we can regulate dollars leaving the country. Are dollars being taken out of the country by people who are allowed to be in the country in the first place? And sending cash in the mail is a crime.

That being said, can I assume you agree with me on limiting citizenship to one nation per person, to slowing down legal immigration by more thorough examination of the people coming in and preventing sponsorship, and removing non-English assistance?

OpenID freeonus March 06, 2013 12:09 PM  

@JARTSTAR

You can't always compare a homeschool GPA with a public school GPA because the difficulty level of the material may not be the same. In addition, homeschoolers aren't graded on the curve, rather they are graded by how well they achieved their goals.

Look, my kids A's (and they are graded by university professors rather than me) are worth more than the public school grades because they are studying more difficult material. For example their history for the next 10 weeks will be on the theme of "Modernity and it's Critics" and will consist of reading and analyzing:

John Dewey,Experience and Education
J.Gresham Machen, Christianity and Liberalism
Joseph Wood Krutch, The Modern Temper
Francis Schaeffer, Trilogy

Their Literature is still being worked out, but the first 4 weeks will include:

T.S. Eliot, Selected Poems
Fyodor Dostoevsky, Crime and Punishment and Notes from the Underground

They will have to write at least two 8-12 pages essays, answer complex weekly questions and take final exams that originate from advanced college level courses. They have worked at this level for their entire highschool careers, so my 9th grader is tackling the same material as my 12th grader.

You really can't compare their grades (even though university admissions do) with our local high school who spends an entire semester on reading To Kill a Mockingbird and another on Helen Keller. Nothing wrong with those books - but they did them in middle school in a week. In a public school they would probably get easy A's but they would be held back from reaching their potential.

Anonymous Jack Amok March 06, 2013 12:09 PM  

2. We have not fallen yet.

Don't look down, Wylie.

And when you do, don't be too surprised if that Chinese-made ACME parachute turns out to be an anvil.


I mean our elite class today isn't building universities. They are cooking corporate books, writing cell phone apps, and doing other worthless things...my counter argument is that no, generally all people 5 generations ago were a better class than what we have now.

Well 5 generations ago we had higher expectations for all classes. But as far as elites and immigrants went, let's think about what's changed.

5 generations ago, an immigrant had to work his butt off to earn his keep and was expected to adopt American culture as best he could. Immigrants who created problems were deported. Six generations ago, the town I grew up in deported the entire Asian population when a white citizen was killed by a stray bullet from a gunfight between rival Chinese gangs.

Plus, elites weren't able to sponge off of the government in any large numbers. Incompetent elites got demoted if they couldn't keep up with the productive middle classes nipping at their heels. But with an Income Tax beating the hell out of people who try to earn their way into the elite classes through productivity, we're stuck with nothing but the politically connected.





Anonymous Jack Amok March 06, 2013 12:15 PM  

Exactly. Which brings us back to the dread ilks (and VD's) biggest ongoing failure. How do you implement a policy that achieves your end goal without implementing a police state?

Dipwit, it's the proto-police state that's causing the problem in the first place. If we slashed the size of government, eliminated the EEOC, outlawed public sector unions and repealed the Income Tax (along with massive government debt), the problem would resolve itself.

It's the massive government sector that looks at immigrants as a source of power and encourages their entry.

You only need a police state to enforce unpopular policies.

OpenID freeonus March 06, 2013 12:33 PM  

You only need a police state to enforce unpopular policies.

I'm not sure that's true, though I do believe that we are institutionally a police state. I suspect that it will, at least initially, enforce the popular paternalistic policies. Let's face it, the person who is willing to take responsibilities for their liberties and work to pursue their own happiness is already in the minority.

Blogger JartStar March 06, 2013 12:35 PM  

freeonus - You are simply snowflaking.

OpenID freeonus March 06, 2013 12:44 PM  

JartStar

Well, homeschoolers in general are snowflakes. We teach our children to their abilities and talents. Rather than giving them the limiting, homogenized experience of the public school, we deal with our children as individual. If that's not snowflaking, then what is?

Blogger W.LindsayWheeler March 06, 2013 12:48 PM  

One of the Ilk mentioned Peter Kreeft and his talk on YouTube "Aristocracy and Democracy".

Dr. Kreeft had this to say about Jesus Christ: (Part V)

Jesus is the most obedient, conformist person

The basis of Aristocracy is the Trinity. God is an Aristocracy.

All I have to say:

This is SPAAAAAAAAARTAAAA....

Jesus Christ---The most Conformist Person there is. Always doing what his Father wanted!

Vox, you are the product of your special circumstances. Your high intelligence, makes you in someways anti-social. God created you that way, but that doesn't mean the world must conform to Vox's ways. You're different and special and an individual. You can not turn your proclivities into a science. Especially when it comes to Western Culture. Society IS based on social cohesion, and solidarity. If there was still an American frontier, you'd be there. But otherwise, lone wolves, as yourself, can not dictate or attack Western Culture and its institutions.

Public Schooling, per se, in its essence, is not evil; is not wrong. Since John Dewey and the other socialists, i.e. the Frankfurt School, got a hold of it, it has changed.

School, education is about the culture of the society. It is about transmitting values and culture. This is the fight with the Chicanoes elevating Tiburcio Vasquez to headline a new school. Vasquez is a Revolutionary. What does "revolution" or "rebellion" have to do with schooling? Nothing. Schooling is about producing citizens to a state. It is to educate.

When Americanist ideologists, Masons, and Protestants teach this separation of church and state, condemned by a Pope as Americanism, then you have your problems. The problem you witness Vox is this precisely stated by the Pope Leo or Pius. There is No such thing as separation from Church and State.

Anonymous 11B March 06, 2013 12:49 PM  

1. We've done this repeatedly, and continually, for many decades. We've had huge waves of immigration, from various underclass producing countries for generations.

We've taken as many immigrants from Mexico in the past 35 years as the combined immigrant total from Germany, Italy and England in 400 years.

We taken more immigrants from El Salvador in the past 35 years than we have from Poland or Greece in the past 400.

Anonymous Josh March 06, 2013 1:00 PM  

Nothing. Schooling is about producing citizens to a state.

Exactly. Which is why it should be resisted.

OpenID freeonus March 06, 2013 1:03 PM  

It's not exactly a zero-sum game, but it might as well be. The more resources that are committed to education, the more the parasite class is drawn to it and the more resources will be diverted away from its primary purpose.

In analyzing the public school data that my state publishes, I found that the lower the school ranked in academics and attendance, the more it cost to educate each student. The students with the least potential receive the greatest percent of the budget! The students with the most potential to contribute to society receive the least. And the schools in my state as a whole show declining achievement. Imagine that!

Blogger JartStar March 06, 2013 1:03 PM  

If that's not snowflaking, then what is?

That's not snowflaking.

Look, my kids A's (and they are graded by university professors rather than me) are worth more than the public school grades because [...]

That's snowflaking. It may be true your kid's A's are more impressive, but what happens in your world does not hold true for the average. I'm not against homeschooling at all and if it works for you then great, but in looking at this issue I'm convinced that demographics count more than the classroom setting and the data supports my view on average.

Anonymous The One March 06, 2013 1:05 PM  

DH is partially right here. The problem is anchor babies and to eliminate that requires a change of the Constitution which will never happen, we are lucky to hold on to some of the bill of rights. The answer is state secession. The federal government is lost.

Anonymous Porky March 06, 2013 1:07 PM  

Wheeler: "Your approach to everything is an act of Rebellion. You can't stop rebelling."

Wheeler, you Catholics have had decades to rebel against your homo child abusing leadership. You have not.

So shut your whiny mouth, and keep dropping that money in the basket. Decent, moral people are sick of you disgusting bootlicking Catholics.

OpenID freeonus March 06, 2013 1:07 PM  

@JartStar

I did not argue that demographics don't count. I did argue that GPA is the wrong metric.

Blogger JartStar March 06, 2013 1:12 PM  

I did argue that GPA is the wrong metric.

Pick your metric for the average that doesn't not correlate with the demographics. I couldn't find one.

Anonymous ZhukovG March 06, 2013 1:13 PM  

Peter Kreeft frequently says things to get a reader or listener's attention. Christianity is, by its very nature, a libertarian faith. It alone of all religions places the individual above the state, but below God. This is why Christianity has been and is hated by those who love the state.

And Sparta is just a small town of little consequence in southern Greece....or Georgia.

Blogger phil g March 06, 2013 1:20 PM  

4 words that sum up this mess: No Child Left Behind

Pure decadence

Anonymous Porky March 06, 2013 1:20 PM  

dh, how is deporting an illegal alien the action of a "police state"?

Anonymous LS March 06, 2013 1:28 PM  

Check out the "K-12 Implosion" on YouTube.

Anonymous dh March 06, 2013 1:37 PM  

dh, how is deporting an illegal alien the action of a "police state"?

It's not. It depends on how you do it. If you have go door to door, inspect papers all over the place, prevent Americans from going about their business without the police up in your face, than it yes, we are talking about a "police state".

Anonymous Porky March 06, 2013 1:40 PM  

It's not.

Problem solved then. So shut up.

Anonymous dh March 06, 2013 1:41 PM  

I took a previous suggestion and have read up the lack of contribution from some recent immigrant groups and I'll admit it's a failure.

It still doesn't resolve the "what's to do".

Anonymous dh March 06, 2013 1:42 PM  

Problem solved then. So shut up.

You fail, again, because you have no resolution.

Anonymous Porky? March 06, 2013 1:47 PM  

You fail, again, because you have no resolution.

1. Build wall
2. Deport

Anything else?

Blogger W.LindsayWheeler March 06, 2013 1:51 PM  

Yes, Josh, you get the point. But you're a Prot and so your answer is typical.

The Individual Josh, is NOT self-sufficient. Protestant theology of individual salvation, does not make good politics. Because your theology is screwed, your politics is screwed. The church in Greek, ekklesia, means community. The Church is a society. Sunday school is about fitting the individual to the Church community.

The Individual can NOT survive in Nature. The State of Nature is War. The only way to survive in Nature is to be part of the group.

We are all parts of the whole. As Aristotle taught, the whole precedes the parts. Everyone of my cells is replaced every seven years, but my body remains. The same paradigm here is what goes on in a school. Even though George Washington has left, the school creates more Washingtons. Each individual is always part of a group. Always. Self-sufficiency, survival is in the Race, i.e. the State. The State is only the government of the Race.

Man, as Aristotle stated, is a Herd Animal. We are Herd Animals and no amount of Protestant theology is going to change that. This is why Protestant Individual Americanist ideology is collapsing under Jewish Marxist ideology. The Jews always act according to group, "What is good for the Jew". So every Jew acts to the betterment of his race. While you stupid Libertarian Protestants go running around in search of your precious "freedom".

I hope you like it in the Mexican barrio coming to your town.

OpenID freeonus March 06, 2013 1:53 PM  

@JartStar

There probably isn't one. But, obviously I read a lot more into the comparison of GPA's than you probably intended.

There's a reason why I push back, when I see any of these metrics used to compare homeschoolers with public school children. It's a dangerous comparison because it gives parents the impression that they are doing just as well sending their children to public schools as they would be by homeschooling them.

I truly believe that the children who have the 3.0 GPA in the public school and come from the 'right' demographic are seriously under challenged, many to the point of boredom or worse. Studies show that many(even a majority) of these kids will be either so turned off by education or unable to educate themselves that, after being processed through the system, they will never read a book again. They will become part of our reading-able but functionally illiterate public.

For these children, that began with great potentials, education becomes a negative ideal. These are the people that stagnate and end up watching sitcoms every night after a dull but stressful day at the office, instead of living their lives continually pursuing new understandings and perfecting their talents. This mentality of education ending at 12th grade or after college is one that has contributed greatly in making America the passive, uninformed nation of TV addicts that it is today.

Homeschool children generally come from the demographic that supplies the better educated children. But,the homeschool children can be challenged individually and thus educated more widely and above what they would be when held back in public school. They can also be challenged in such a way that learning excites them because the material encourages them think deeply to form their own conclusions. My own (snowflake alert!) experience is that they desire to pursue many interests on their own beginning at a very young age and will continue to do so as adults. The point of schooling becomes teaching your children to teach themselves so that they don't stop their education at 12th grade or college, but that learning becomes a life long process.

And life long education is what really makes the difference.

Anonymous Alexander March 06, 2013 1:57 PM  

Anchor babies cannot be eliminated without changing the foundation of our legal system, true. However, the government could take a number of steps to prevent it:

- Don't let the parents into the country in the first place.

- Don't let any of the family members have dual citizenship, including the child.

- Once the kid becomes an adult, there is no reason at all why the parents can't be deported.

Or we can say that millions of unwelcome foreigners having children in our country for the explicit purpose of settling our lands while using our own laws and sense of decency against us is an 'invasion' and thus those children are not American citizens by birth.

People come here because it is easy to do so and we make things as easy as possible for them once they do. Stop doing those things, and many will stop coming.

Anonymous dh March 06, 2013 2:03 PM  

1. Agree to disagree then. I believe that there is large-scale fraud on the entitlements. You believe there is not. I can only go with my own lying eyes on this one.
The problem is that people imagine fraud on this. The reality is that the people presumed to be fraudulently getting benefits are part of a citizen based household, or are themselves citizens.

2. Policy is not policy. You can insist on the numbers but I don't believe it. I recognize though that this puts us at a standstill in terms of debate. Can it suffice that we at least agree that that much should be happening, even if we disagree on how effective it is in solving the entire problem and how much of it is actually put into practice? Same with the DOJ - if a store owner here demanded proof of citizenship, he'd be up to his ass in legal bullshit. The government would support this.
I suspect the biggest problem with a store owner doing so would be local or state laws, which are typically very serious in tone about discrimination and/or profiling, and then, public backlash. It's just not going to be popular. And that's why it doesn't happen. The markets work both ways, and the illegal immigrant side of this equation is far more organized and strong than the converse. Whatever we 'want' to happen is irrelevant, because few if any number of business owners will ever forfeit profit to enforce a law they may or may not agree with. And for larger companies it's simply a non-starter. Wal-mart could care less if a customer has the right piece of paper or not. Basically, getting people who sell liquor to check a plastic ID that is uniformly sized and formatted is more than we can ask for most of of the time. And now businesses are going to ask for papers? It's just fantasy land. Sorry.

3. Are dollars being taken out of the country by people who are allowed to be in the country in the first place? And sending cash in the mail is a crime.

This is not a strong argument. First off, remittances are not sent via cash. They are wired. On what basis are we going to restrict wire transfers between two private people? Western union is going to merge with the INS? And, usually, the recipient isn't going to be a citizen. How is that going to work?
Also, Sending money through the mail is not a crime. It's just stupid.

That being said, can I assume you agree with me on limiting citizenship to one nation per person, to slowing down legal immigration by more thorough examination of the people coming in and preventing sponsorship, and removing non-English assistance

I don't have any problem with dual citizenship. I am not sure how this would help. I do think it's pretty much time we ended or nearly ended legal immigration for a bit. I would be happy to sell green cards at auction on the open market. As far as English goes, it's just another government intrusion. The marketplace has already answered this one for you. Most businesses in diverse areas are bi-lingual. Or at least friendly. What the government does here is basically irrelevant. Short of passing law to force people to speak only English, it's over. And then we are back to a police state to enforce English.

Anonymous dh March 06, 2013 2:06 PM  

1. Build wall
2. Deport

Anything else?


#1 Right, and that same will be used to keep citizens in. You think you'll be able to go over the wall without paying your exit tax? You think when things go really bad you'll ever be able to over the wall? Secondly, a wall is useless. It has to be manned. (Link:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHjKBjM1ngw enjoy your wall)

#2 And how do you round up people for deportation? Shall we have a special police that goes door to door and demands papers?

Anonymous dh March 06, 2013 2:11 PM  

Anchor babies cannot be eliminated without changing the foundation of our legal system, true. However, the government could take a number of steps to prevent it:

It's not that hard. It's relatively drastic, but nothing an amendment can't fix.

Anonymous dh March 06, 2013 2:13 PM  

It's the massive government sector that looks at immigrants as a source of power and encourages their entry.

You only need a police state to enforce unpopular policies.


Yeah, and guess what's popular and what's not popular? Here's a hint, most people aren't against taxing the crap out of the rich. Most people want "Free" healthcare, and most people want "free" food stamps.

Anonymous physphilmusic March 06, 2013 2:25 PM  

Asians invaded and overwhelmed the University of California

Asians were given higher hoops than even whites to jump through in order to get into the University of California until race-based affirmative action ended. Yes, after that they "invaded" the University of California - because they owned the white children's assess, academically speaking.

Do you want the UC to institute affirmative action for whites instead - you know, whites need only to pass a lower standard to get admitted, lower SAT scores, lower grades, etc.? Do you want whites to be given easier grading as well? So if you're white, you only need 80% to get an A. If you're Asian, you need 90%. Maybe if you have "shit-colored" skin, you need to get 100% just to pass. That's interesting. But seriously, I doubt that even with that kind of affirmative action, whites will be able to significantly academically outperform Asians, on average.

Yeah, whites had historically superior work ethics and personal philosophy (such as Christianity), I suppose, but I don't think they were ever the most intelligent. Perhaps you can make a case for being the most creative. But then again, whites also have the curious capacity for self-destruction in the long term, by eventually coming up with philosophies such as Marxism.

which wasn't built for them.
Are you sure the UC system was originally built for ALL white people, including Catholics?

America is a white, Christian society
That's a bit inaccurate, since I distinctly recall you saying that America doesn't exist anymore.

so you simply deport all the non-whites and the non-Christians, and the issue kind of solves itself.
1. How are you going to decide who is non-white and who is not? Should we institute a one-drop rule? Are you sure that none of your own numerous great-great-great-grandmothers ever messed around with a black man?

Or do we compare one's skin color to the color of feces, since you seem to have a personal problem of "shit-colored" individuals? How about those whites who have chosen to tan themselves to the point that I can find feces which is lighter colored than they are? What and whose feces would you use? I'm not sure if Mexican shit is darker than white shit, but perhaps we should investigate that.

2. Where are you going to deport people to? Where are you going to put blacks, for example? America is about 80% white, so there are about 80 million non-whites you would need to get rid of. Mass emigration on that scale has historically been very, very rare.

3. Even if all the whites in America united in your proposal, how are you going to deport 80 million people without turning this entire place into a battlefield and shithole like most other places in the world?

Anonymous Porky March 06, 2013 2:27 PM  

#1 Right, and that same will be used to keep citizens in.

We have an armed citizenry who enjoys blowing stuff up.

Next problem?

Secondly, a wall is useless. It has to be manned.

Then man it. Duh.

Next reeeally hard problem?

#2 And how do you round up people for deportation? Shall we have a special police that goes door to door and demands papers?

Are you saying that the 400,000 illegals that were deported last year by the Obama administration were dragged from their homes in the night by jack-booted thugs with battering rams?

If not, then imagine what could be done with an administration that actually tries.

You sound really, really, really dumb, dh. Which Mexican school did you go to?






Anonymous James May March 06, 2013 2:30 PM  

Who built Cal and everything in it they teach? Am I flocking to China to enter their schools and successful culture?

Predictably - no. Obvious is obviously not in your dictionary.

They wear baseball caps all over Europe. Guess what - no baseball.

Anonymous scoobius dubious March 06, 2013 2:38 PM  

"The answer is state secession. The federal government is lost."

No, the only answer is whites-only secession. If you secede on the basis of a political unit like a state, then the parasites get to come along with you and the whole thing starts all over again in miniature. Multiculturalism and multiracialism simply do not work for whites; for various baked-in reasons, they spell the doom of whites as whites. Not everybody is meant to live with everybody else, nor is it a good thing for everyone concerned. It's obvious why blacks and browns and Jews benefit from being around whites. But whites need to start asking themselves, What do WE get out of it? The answer is: a) in the short term, nothing but headaches and leech-bites, and b) in the long term, your annihilation as a people.

Anonymous Anonagain March 06, 2013 2:55 PM  

So a vote for police state, door to door checks, paper's please roadblocks.

You are conveniently blind to the fact that the USA is already a police state - and this police state wants illegal aliens to be here. You are either stupid, naive, or a government plant. And I don't buy your kinder, gentler Leftist apologetics BS.

scoobius doobius as JQP is a pattern recognition fail.

Anonymous Dan in Tx March 06, 2013 3:06 PM  

" If you have go door to door, inspect papers all over the place, prevent Americans from going about their business without the police up in your face, than it yes, we are talking about a "police state"."

Except for the "door to door" part (for the most part) I'd say that's a pretty good description of what we have now.

Anonymous 11B March 06, 2013 3:10 PM  

The problem is anchor babies and to eliminate that requires a change of the Constitution which will never happen,

First, It could be done with a Supreme Court decision that decided to interpret the 14th Amendment in a different manner. In fact SC decisions can always be used to change what one would normally believe would take a constitutional amendment. That is why folks are so worried that a changed court could interpret the 2nd Amendment as a group, not individual, right to bear arms. Likewise the SC could decide that illegals are not under the jurisdiction of the US since they never received government permission to enter.

Second, end the silly notion of family reunification. Even if the Court allows the baby of an illegal to become a citizen, there is no constitutional amendment that prevents the kid's parents from being sent back home. Presumably the parents would take their kid with them when deported.

Anonymous Anonagain March 06, 2013 3:15 PM  

Except for the "door to door" part (for the most part) I'd say that's a pretty good description of what we have now.

What we have now is SWAT breaking down a private citizen's door, with a high probability of killing anything that moves before anyone has a chance to get any papers at all. The Police State will send out SWAT against its citizens with such ease and little evidence that it's become a method of attack against an enemy. It's called "swatting".

Anonymous civilServant March 06, 2013 3:15 PM  

People sometimes wonder how I can be an open and avowed anti-equalitarian elitist. To which my response is: precisely how mediocre do you believe yourself to be that you are not?

"Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens have an equal say in the decisions that affect their lives." Wiki

In your view who is an "eligible citizen?"

Anonymous OCS March 06, 2013 3:34 PM  

Just curious if this was a BA or BS? Some of the more treacherous private schools are pushing BA degrees in place of the BS degree, in areas that have no business being a BA program.

It's a BS.

@alexcurylo

I concur, it's just that as a Gen-Y kid I've been duped by the older generation and the rat race of my peers into thinking "this is the way things are so it's normal". Oh well, you live and learn I suppose. Thanks for the support though guys! Much appreciated!

Anonymous 11B March 06, 2013 4:11 PM  

Secondly, you are entirely flawed in your premise regarding a moratorium. We have a present day moratorium on mass immigration. The official policy cannot be the only thing you consider, you must also consider the actual policy.


I guess our definitions of a moratorium differ. We currently accept over 1 million legals per year, mostly through family reunification. And we've been doing this for quite some time. Since 1965, we've taken in about 50 million immigrants.

From 1607 to 1958, we took in around 42 million immigrants. While the 1924 Immigration Act was in effect, we took in around 180K per year.

I don't see any moratorium on mass immigration.

Anonymous dh March 06, 2013 4:20 PM  

Except for the "door to door" part (for the most part) I'd say that's a pretty good description of what we have now.

AGREE AND NOT HAPPY.

Anonymous dh March 06, 2013 4:25 PM  

Are you saying that the 400,000 illegals that were deported last year by the Obama administration were dragged from their homes in the night by jack-booted thugs with battering rams?

If not, then imagine what could be done with an administration that actually tries.

You sound really, really, really dumb, dh. Which Mexican school did you go to?


As I have said, this is the low hanging fruit, less than 50% of the problem. These are people who literally fell into INS custody, again and again and again. It's also the same 400k people again and again and again. So while it's a high number, it's also a very small portion of the people out there that need deporting.

If we are talking about deporting everyone, it's a far cry from only deporting those who happen to run into law enforcement on a job site, a check point, or in some other fashion.

Finally, I would assume that you'll admit that the 400k that were deported have not solved the problem. We could continue to deport 400k illegals every year for decades and not solve the problem.

man it
Right and the same idiots you get to keep the Mexicans out will be used to keep the citizens in. Walls always end up keeping people in.

Anonymous dh March 06, 2013 4:28 PM  

From 1607 to 1958, we took in around 42 million immigrants. While the 1924 Immigration Act was in effect, we took in around 180K per year.

I don't see any moratorium on mass immigration.


Really?

180k per year on a population of 75 million = 0.25%
1M per year on a populat of 310 million = 0.32%

Immigration is about 25% higher now per capita than it was in the early 1900's.

Anonymous 11B March 06, 2013 4:37 PM  

Really?

180k per year on a population of 75 million = 0.25%
1M per year on a populat of 310 million = 0.32%

Immigration is about 25% higher now per capita than it was in the early 1900's.


75 million? What don't you redo your math with these figures.
US Census -
1920 - 106 million
1930 - 122 million
1940 - 132 million
1950 - 150 million
1960 - 179 million

The 1924 Act lasted from 1924 to 1965. As you can see 180K immigrants per year during the 1950s would correspond to around 300K today. We get 300K annually in illegals alone. Mass immigration is taking place.

Anonymous 11B March 06, 2013 4:46 PM  

Right and the same idiots you get to keep the Mexicans out will be used to keep the citizens in. Walls always end up keeping people in.

Then if you ever want to leave, head for the Canadian border. There is no need to build a wall there and it would be easier for a white, English speaking man, assuming you're white, to enter Canada and blend in then it would be for you to enter Mexico. You'd stand out like a sore thumb, would probably be rounded up by the Federales, and deported by the the US anyway.

Anonymous Porky March 06, 2013 4:46 PM  

Ok, forget the wall.

1. Deport
2. Remove incentives and services
3. Fine businesses for violations
4. Bill the native governments for every capture.

No police state necessary. So shut up.

Anonymous dh March 06, 2013 5:01 PM  

First, It could be done with a Supreme Court decision that decided to interpret the 14th Amendment in a different manner. In fact SC decisions can always be used to change what one would normally believe would take a constitutional amendment. That is why folks are so worried that a changed court could interpret the 2nd Amendment as a group, not individual, right to bear arms. Likewise the SC could decide that illegals are not under the jurisdiction of the US since they never received government permission to enter.

Second, end the silly notion of family reunification. Even if the Court allows the baby of an illegal to become a citizen, there is no constitutional amendment that prevents the kid's parents from being sent back home. Presumably the parents would take their kid with them when deported.


I agree the Supreme Court could do something like you suggest, it's just unlikely. With the 2nd amendment, the Court had actually very little case law on the applicability of gun laws and the nature of the right at question.

On the other hand, the 14th amendment has a large and stable body of lower and appeals courts rulings, and a respectable body of Supreme Court law. On top of that, there is no great debate about the meaning of the 14th amendment. Of course over time anything can happen, it's just not that likely.

And I agree about family re-unification.

Anonymous dh March 06, 2013 5:03 PM  

1. Deport
2. Remove incentives and services
3. Fine businesses for violations
4. Bill the native governments for every capture.


#1 - how

#2 - how

#3 - how

#4 - already do that

Anonymous dh March 06, 2013 5:05 PM  

The 1924 Act lasted from 1924 to 1965. As you can see 180K immigrants per year during the 1950s would correspond to around 300K today. We get 300K annually in illegals alone. Mass immigration is taking place.

I will revisit my numbers. I have 1992 US FACT BOOK on my desk, apparently can't trust the census numbers from it.

Are we talking about illegals, or legal immigration?

Anonymous Anonagain March 06, 2013 5:06 PM  

Ok, forget the wall.

The need for a physical wall to guard the Southern border against trespassers is rather outdated in this day and age of drone technology. The surveillance of citizens with cameras and other means is now common, and very likely drones will soon be hovering about watching their every move. They don't need no steekin' walls to control the citizens, and they sure as hell don't need them to control the border - in either direction.

There is absolutely no reason that drones cannot be used to effectively guard our borders, even armed ones, other than the fact that the State has no intention of stemming the tide of invaders.

Anonymous Porky? March 06, 2013 5:38 PM  

"how?"

1. Already do it.
2. Require a SS#.
3. Already do it.
4. Already do it.

Seriously, dh, are you not very bright or just trolling? I'm guessing both.

Anonymous 11B March 06, 2013 5:40 PM  

I will revisit my numbers. I have 1992 US FACT BOOK on my desk, apparently can't trust the census numbers from it.

Are we talking about illegals, or legal immigration?


We are talking about legal immigration being around 1 million today and 180K during the days of the Immigration Act of 1924. I got those figures from NumbersUSA and their "gumball" video presentation.

As far as the census figures go, I got them from wiki.

1920
1930
1940
1950
1960

Anonymous 11B March 06, 2013 5:47 PM  

DH,

While you are contemplating immigration, think about this. Currently Hispanics are around 15 percent of the population, and trends suggest they will become 50% by 2060 or so. It is also reported that Mexicans comprise about 70% of US Hispanics. Therefore if the trends continue, once Hispanics make up half our population, Mexicans alone will become 35%. I cannot imagine a nation where one out of every three Americans is an ethnic Mexican. That doesn't bode well for the future, whether you are a fan of diversity, which that won't be, or a fan of traditional America, which that definitely won't be.

Also, our nation is no longer empty and we no longer have a need for massive factory labor. Therefore, for quality of life issues there needs to be a discussion on what our population ought to be. Clearly with our landmass we could have a billion people like India. But is that what we want? I don't. I'd prefer a population around 200 to 250 million. I like the open spaces and don't want to put too much pressure on our water resources and such. There are a lot of arguments that can be made against mass immigration. The trouble is none are allowed to be discussed lest the debaters be labeled racists.

Blogger W.LindsayWheeler March 06, 2013 6:34 PM  

Vox, the original meaning of the term "idiotes" in the Greek was an epithat towards loners that did not want to participate in the politics of the city. Those that did not vote, go to meetings, engage in debates. They were the Idiotes.

The term has changed in meaning.

There are people who reject communal living. (Protestantism made it into a religion for some odd reason.)

The Greeks are the heart and soul of Western Culture and Civilization. It begins there. They demeaned people who did not want to co-operate with the community. It was the atheist Enlightenment that pushed "individualism". Highly intelligent people don't meld well with the rest. Highly intelligent people were the royalty and the nobles. It was the commons that acted in a herd.

Individualism and rebellion and acting "idiotes" is not how a society functions.

A society is an organism. Every organism needs/has/requires an organizing principle. For animal bodies it is DNA, for herds it is Instinct. For humans it is the government. This is the Natural Progression of things. It was the Protestant Reformation, and the atheist Enlightenment that thru all of this out the window. Your intellectual training comes from these two sources.

Public Schooling was started in Crete and Sparta. Plato, influenced by them created his Academy and then Aristotle his school. The Romans had public schools.

Medieval Christianity had schools and created universities and colleges which grew out of the seminaries. All of this was necessary because one needs a library---a library that was all handwritten---NO printing press----NO internet. Your assumptions are NOT historical. With the printing press, with the internet, homeschooling is possible but without those technologies---education is near nigh impossible. You had to gather people around libraries for training. Your critique and judgement are due to the benefits of technology.

Homeschooling is a sign that you have lost the culture. You've lost the culture! The Marxists that run our culture can now dictate what goes on in the classroom. That is the problem.

It is also the Natural Law that undergirds public schooling. It is the law of righteousness--"All things are constructed to do one thing". A father who is busy with making a living, can't train his son. That is why you see in Homer--the nobles and the ruling kings got tutors for their sons. From the necessity of tutors arose Public schooling in order to feed the same information to all. That is why Crete and Sparta developed the first public schools--and they trained the Total, Whole Man, not just his mind. They did what NO homeschooler can or ever do.

Virtue can only be taught in a communal setting. Virtue only comes out in the community.

Blogger W.LindsayWheeler March 06, 2013 6:43 PM  

If you did not write this Vox: The concept of group schooling is fundamentally flawed from the start.

I would not write anything. But you keep on attacking the concept of "group schooling". That is never the problem.

The problem is that you lost the culture. Who controls the culture, can dictate what they want people to learn.

In the above quote, I posited a reason for group schooling in the Natural Law of righteousness, or in layman's terms, professionalism.

The next reason for group schooling is COMPETITION. Everyday, all the time, with tests and answering questions, one has to compete with others. It is In competition that excellence is made. To beat the jocks in the classroom, was my biggest thrill as a kid. To raise my hand the fastest. Competition is also another Law of nature: "Iron sharpens Iron".

Humans are herd animals. We are to do things in a Herd. Church and School were done in a herd---until the Prots came by.

Your conclusion is based on technology that did not exist earlier and your anti-social bias from the outset. People acting in a herd is the Normal course of events. Being an Individual is NOT normal.

I have posited two reasons from the Natural Law and a third reason from the psychological/sociological aspect of natural human discourse.

Anonymous scoobius dubious March 06, 2013 6:45 PM  

The problem is not what the percentage of immigrants is, with respect to past percentages in 1890 or 1920; the problem is that the current immigrants, whether legal or illegal, are non-white, non-Western, non-Christian, and basically have no ties of loyalty to the historical American population. They just want our stuff, they don't care about us or our interests, and increasingly they have a raw racialist contempt and a raw racialist will to power, as our charming friend Physphilmusic illustrated above. They are not our fellow citizens or our fellow Americans, they are plunderers and colonists and invaders.

As we increasingly observe, every bloc with the exception of whites votes race, plain and simple.

If whites remain passive in the face of this naked plunder, the outcome will be the extermination of whites. If whites do not remain passive, the outcome will be some version of civil war. There aren't any other realistic options. Guess who I blame.

Anonymous physphilmusic March 06, 2013 8:56 PM  

increasingly they have a raw racialist contempt and a raw racialist will to power, as our charming friend Physphilmusic illustrated above.

The person who strongly seems to believe in affirmative action for his own race, who believes in deportation of "non-whites", is now accusing others of having "raw racialist contempt". Very amusing, scoobius dubious.

You're sounding just like a leftist talking about white people. You're OFFENDED! Your historical arguments about "for whom the UC system was built for
are part of what makes possible certain leftist arguments about all whites collectively owning a debt to blacks due to slavery which happened over 150 years ago.

And there is a difference between calmly reasoning about the different cultures and races and comparing others' skin color to shit. Such an attitude displays contempt which is not based on reason.

Anonymous scoobius dubious March 06, 2013 9:20 PM  

"Such an attitude displays contempt which is not based on reason."

Or maybe, just maybe, it instead displays a rather sophisticated sort of reason with a great many layers and feedback loops and species of internal criticism. You're a smart guy, at least allegedly, so I'll let you ponder the thing at your own pace. Meantime I guess I have to go out and beat a stegosaurus to death with my caveman club or something. Ek-ek. Ook ook.



Anonymous physphilmusic March 06, 2013 9:26 PM  

Or maybe, just maybe, it instead displays a rather sophisticated sort of reason with a great many layers and feedback loops and species of internal criticism.

Sophisticated reasoning? There have been many white persons throughout history who have enlightened the world through their sophisticated reasoning indeed. However, I am sure comparing the color skin to human feces is not something to be touted as an example of this.

Meantime I guess I have to go out and beat a stegosaurus to death with my caveman club or something. Ek-ek. Ook ook.

Nobody implied that you're a caveman. I thought passive-aggressiveness was the hallmark of the Left.

Anonymous scoobius dubious March 06, 2013 9:44 PM  

That's not passive-aggressive, that's called making a joke.

"However, I am sure comparing the color skin to human feces is not something to be touted as an example of this."

Are you really sure, though? Sure is a big heavy word, you can throw your back out trying to lift it if you aren't careful. You don't seem to have contemplated it for very long, so I don't know where you get your confidence from. Maybe it is [an example of such], for reasons you haven't yet considered; in fact, I can promise you that it is. You dismissed out of hand the idea that it could have anything at all to do with reason, and went straight for the emotionalist explanation. And then in the very next breath you denied that you were being patronizing. Were I also given to playing so fast and loose with words like "reason" and "sure," well... I almost might have a thing or two to say about that. As the old joke goes, if I took you to Task, you wouldn't get back for a week.

I know my lazy, leaden twang
Is like the reason in a storm.
And yet, it brings the storm to bear.
I twang it out and leave it there.

-- Stevens, "The Man With the Blue Guitar"


Anonymous physphilmusic March 06, 2013 9:58 PM  

You dismissed out of hand the idea that it could have anything at all to do with reason, and went straight for the emotionalist explanation.

Of course, no one is denying that "shit-colored" individuals really are shit-colored. It is trivially easy to see (literally) how that's true. The problem is that such an observation needs so little reasoning that it casts doubt on the motivations behind your beliefs. You can fault people for being criminal, for being stupid, for feeling entitled, even perhaps for not having ancestors which happened to be great. However, no person had any say in determining the color of his skin. They also had no say in determining the color of shit.

Anonymous physphilmusic March 06, 2013 10:01 PM  

And then in the very next breath you denied that you were being patronizing.

It is of course possible to criticize someone's reasoning as being stupid without saying that person is stupid.

Anonymous scoobius dubious March 06, 2013 10:50 PM  

Everything you've just said above is kinda-sorta true... or at the very least, shall we say, kinda-sorta non-false. But you're not trying to come to grips with why I might have said such an inflammatory thing in the first place: you deny calling me a caveman, yet you ascribe to me simple caveman motives. But what if my motives are in fact sophisticated? Granted it's not your responsibility or duty to spend a lot of time thinking about what I'm saying or why I've said it, if you don't wish to. But you seem interested and are pursuing the matter, so you may as well do me the courtesy of thinking about it with a smidgen of seriousness for at least a bit. Your approach up til now has been overly literal and sort of boxed in. I could explain the whole thing clearly in about three short sentences, but I'm trying to get you to have a fresh perception on your own steam. It'd do you some good.

"it casts doubt on the motivations behind your beliefs."

Only because you've chosen to put being offended and clutching your pearls as a priority before trying to come to more complex terms with what I might be talking about. As a famous shit-colored person once said, "Free your mind, your ass will follow."

Here's a hint: I don't hate anybody because of their physical characteristics. In fact I don't hate anybody at all, for any reason. But...

"The greatest poverty is not to live
In a physical world..."

--Stevens again. Man, that cat was good.

Anonymous Geoff March 06, 2013 10:51 PM  

@scoobius and his opponents on this issue:

Disliking the argument (and the likely outcome) of Scoobius' position has no bearing on its truthfulness.

If you have eyes, you can draw no other conclusions but his. Sad as that is, and as depressing as it makes a man when he realizes he's now a racist. I'm not scared of the word anymore. Not any more scared than the 97% of blacks who say "no" to being self-sufficient every four years.

Anonymous physphilmusic March 06, 2013 11:19 PM  

Granted it's not your responsibility or duty to spend a lot of time thinking about what I'm saying or why I've said it, if you don't wish to. But you seem interested and are pursuing the matter, so you may as well do me the courtesy of thinking about it with a smidgen of seriousness for at least a bit. Your approach up til now has been overly literal and sort of boxed in. I could explain the whole thing clearly in about three short sentences, but I'm trying to get you to have a fresh perception on your own steam. It'd do you some good.

Oh, even with my limited mind, to which I am sure yours is superior, I can fathom several reasons why you would like to discourse in that way. Rhetoric is often more powerful than reason, and presumably your rhetoric helps with your cause. But I personally dislike this, not because of the normal reasons of you being "racisss", but because I dislike conversations in which someone says something not for the sake of making an intellectual point, but a social one. In other words, your use of rhetoric is similar to feminists complaining about how "hurtful" and "sickening" something is.

Anonymous physphilmusic March 06, 2013 11:23 PM  

Disliking the argument (and the likely outcome) of Scoobius' position has no bearing on its truthfulness.
Anybody should know this.

If you have eyes, you can draw no other conclusions but his. Sad as that is, and as depressing as it makes a man when he realizes he's now a racist. I'm not scared of the word anymore. Not any more scared than the 97% of blacks who say "no" to being self-sufficient every four years.

I don't necessarily disagree. In fact, scoobious dubious' use of the word "shit-colored" was only meant by to be a side jab. My main issue is with his use of historical arguments on for whom the UC system is built for, for example. It is quite amusing to see someone fault blacks for being stupid, and fault Asians for being smart.

Anonymous scoobius dubious March 06, 2013 11:43 PM  

"fault blacks for being stupid, and fault Asians for being smart."

No one is faulting Asians for being smart. (Though frankly I'm not in any particular awe of ostensible native Asian genius.) Honestly, and not in a blog-brawling insult-slinging way, you don't seem to have a good grasp of this issue in its entirety, or at least in the way that others view it, which is close to the same thing. I'm not being condescending or dismissive, I'm pointing out that there appear to be a lot of dimensions to this argument which you haven't given thought to, and you don't seem to know the facts or the history in a way that makes it possible to have a careful discussion about it. I'm not pulling one of those glib "you are not tall enough for this ride" routines; I'm pointing out that you don't seem to share my vocabulary on this score, and you don't seem interested in acquiring a larger vocabulary in order to understand views in contrast to your own. There isn't much I can do about that. I have my own theories about why that would be the case, but they aren't your concern, and they may not even be correct. Such is the world.

The crux of the biscuit
Is the apostrophe.
--Frank Zappa


Anonymous scoobius dubious March 06, 2013 11:51 PM  

"not because of the normal reasons of you being "racisss","

If it's all the same to you, I prefer the hysteria-flavored spelling "raaaaaaacist". But they're both funny. :-)

Anonymous physphilmusic March 07, 2013 1:10 AM  

you don't seem interested in acquiring a larger vocabulary in order to understand views in contrast to your own.

The problem is that most of your comments appear to be a sort of activism instead of purely intellectual discourse. They always seem more to be calls for action and outrage rather than debate. You are trying to "raise awareness". If you were to argue in a purely intellectual manner that certain groups of people deserve certain kinds of preference due to historical facts, it might be more interesting. But as it stands right now, reading your complaints about "Asians invading the UC system" is like reading feminist complaints about "rape culture" and "systems of privilege". The rhetoric covers up whatever substance was there - you are not detaching the personal from the political.

Anonymous physphilmusic March 07, 2013 1:13 AM  

And I, liking pure intellectual discourse more than the battle of rhetoric, prefer deliberately taking your statements at face value, including your proposal that America "deport" all non-whites, for example. That comment might serve some rhetorical purpose, but taken literally, it's absurd, from a practical or even ideological point of view.

Anonymous scoobius dubious March 07, 2013 5:58 AM  

"And I, liking pure intellectual discourse more than the battle of rhetoric,"

Which is of course a purely rhetorical move, positioning yourself. Cut it out; who do you think you're talking to, Gomer Pyle?

Some spade said,
Rock and rollers,
You're all the same.
Man, that's your _instrument_!
I felt so ashamed.

Well it's a mighty long way
Down rock and roll,
From the Liverpool docks
To the Hollywood Bowl.
And you climb up the mountains
And you fall down the holes.
...All the way from Memphis.

Anonymous scoobius dubious March 07, 2013 6:03 AM  

"The problem is that most of your comments appear to be a sort of activism instead of purely intellectual discourse."

That's only a problem for _you_, because you have a weird, very much self-interested idea about intellectual "purity", which you have somehow defined to precisely suit your own particular needs, mirabile dictu. Who could have seen that one coming.

"The problem," said the tapeworm to its host, "is that what you're proposing is totally crazy. A world without tapeworms? Why, that's insane! Besides, the two of us have been getting on so well together!"

Anonymous physphilmusic March 07, 2013 2:37 PM  

Which is of course a purely rhetorical move, positioning yourself. Cut it out; who do you think you're talking to, Gomer Pyle?

Do you think I follow this blog in order to mudsling rhetoric at people? What satisfaction do you think I could get from that? There's enough of that in the campus newspaper.

That's only a problem for _you_, because you have a weird, very much self-interested idea about intellectual "purity", which you have somehow defined to precisely suit your own particular needs, mirabile dictu. Who could have seen that one coming.

You think your idea of comparing skin color to feces is a better standard of "intellectual purity", as opposed to say, calm, dispassionate, reasoned, but firm arguments? Who could have seen that one coming.

Anonymous scoobius dubious March 07, 2013 4:33 PM  

"Do you think I follow this blog in order to mudsling rhetoric at people?"

I don't know why you follow the blog. Nevertheless, engaging in bloated and misleading (not to mention downright _wrong_) rhetoric while pretending not to, is exactly what you have been doing. Whether you're aware of it or not, is not my problem. But I bet a lot of the other readers here are painfully aware of it.

"You think your idea of comparing skin color to feces is a better standard of "intellectual purity", as opposed to say, calm, dispassionate, reasoned, but firm arguments?"

First of all, you haven't offered any calm, reasoned, firm arguments, and you keep rejecting my invitation to think and consider long enough to be capable of doing same. You've mostly just been doing a lot of loud, silly arm-waving, while insisting that you're the world's biggest groupie of Pure Abstract Reason. Here's a hint to the kids playing along at home: we live in the world, not in a Venn diagram, and Pure Abstract Reason is only one particular part of a much larger tool kit containing icky things like blood and hair and teeth, which enables us to live and function in the world. Pure Abstract Reason, divorced from other considerations, gets you killed pretty durned quick. A fact which our friend here has been unwittingly demonstrating for the past fifteen comments or so.

Second of all, every time I invite you to explore the intricacies of why I might be doing what I'm doing, you decline and instead do the old leftist "point and sputter" routine. Do you think that dancing the hokey-pokey makes you look like a thinker? (Lookit, pal: I'm older than you, I've been around more blocks than you even know exist, and as Yeats once put it in one of his rare laconic moods, I've "read and thought". You strike me as having done one or the other, but not yet both. But you're a young dude (Bowie! Mott! You don't know what I'm goofing on!) and there's plenty of time. We'll make a thinker out of you yet.

In case you haven't noticed, USG policy is not determined by me, nor by what people yip and yap about on this blog. We're here to talk, not to grandly move the lever of the world with our inimitable style (that's a Joseph Mitchell/Joe Gould reference, with a bit of Archimedes thrown in for chuckles) -- except maybe one mind at a time. In this particular circumstance, I haven't been pamphleteering for an election in District Twelve or whatever, I've been trying to educate you about something, but you're a stubborn lad.

Well that's okay. Often the stubborn lads are the promising ones.


Anonymous Anonymous March 09, 2013 4:02 PM  

Physphilmusic, I suggest that you don't feed the animals anymore. Deporting American citizens because of their race would solve our problems? Scooby Dooby's hitting the bong again.

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