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Saturday, March 09, 2013

The lobotomy factories

One has to wonder what the argument for public school is supposed to be when four out of five of the GRADUATES of a major public school system can't read, write, or do math:
It’s an education bombshell. Nearly 80 percent of New York City high school graduates need to relearn basic skills before they can enter the City University’s community college system.
This doesn't even account for the dropouts, who account for at least 12.1 percent of the city's students even if we take the more generous "current methodology" at face value.   "Since 2005, when the State began using its current methodology to calculate graduation rates, New York City's graduation rate has risen by 40.9 percent. In that same period, the dropout rate has fallen nearly 10 points from 22 percent to 12.1 percent."

If we assume that the dropouts have similarly failed to learn the basic skills, that means that about 17.6% of the students in the New York City public school system are learning basic skills.

The public schools aren't useless, they are worse than useless.  Forget online education and homeschooling, children would probably learn more from playing video games all day for 12 years.  And it would cost a lot less to provide every "student" with a PlayStation and a new game delivered every month.

UPDATE: It's not just New York City and its vibrant community that are failing.  Consider Minnesota, which spends $12,966 per year per public school student
  • 23% of Minnesota students are not proficient in reading
  • 38% of Minnesota students are not proficient in math
  • 52% of Minnesota students are not proficient in science
By the way, the Minneapolis public schools spend $23,020 per student and 42.6% are not proficient in reading and 60.4% are not proficient in math.

Labels:

80 Comments:

Anonymous Pinakeli March 09, 2013 10:07 AM  

How appropriate is it that I am working the Austin Gamers Expo today?

You just gave me another selling point!

Anonymous Glacierman March 09, 2013 10:13 AM  

Vox, you are too harsh!

The Chillin's are learning how to "feel" their way through life.

What is wrong with that?

Anonymous Pablo March 09, 2013 10:18 AM  

Like pretty much every single other bureaucracy, education has gotten top heavy with managers and elites who know what's best for their clients while never talking to the vast majority of them, nor truly caring about the results. As long as they can manipulate statistics to create the appearance that their jobs are meaningful and important, they'll gladly keep trudging along, fixing what isn't broke, innovating what needs to be kept simple, and having meeting after goddamned meeting to make sure something, *SOMETHING*, is being done about the crisis of the week.

That's our education system here in Canada anyways.

Anonymous Silver Lining March 09, 2013 10:19 AM  

Thank goodness they were infused with self-esteem by the system, otherwise they might be devastated.

Anonymous rycamor March 09, 2013 10:24 AM  

The large cities are breeding a completely different human being from the rest of the country. I'm sure a large percentage of that 80% don't even have a clue that eggs come from actual chickens, bacon from pigs and that most food in its original state comes up out of the ground.

This breed of human should be regarded as having the potential to behave a lot like zombies given certain conditions.

Anonymous bob k. mando March 09, 2013 10:28 AM  

VOX!

what do you have against 'socialization'? don't you want your children to grow up to be successful?

shame. SHAME!

your chill'in will have no chili! i'm reporting you to CPS.

Anonymous LES March 09, 2013 10:30 AM  

More money and lower student-teacher ratios are not the solution. My wife teaches
in a small Christian school for middle and high school kids. She faces the same problems
that public school teachers do: dysfunctional families that do not value education.

Anonymous bob k. mando March 09, 2013 10:30 AM  

My chili brings all the boys to the yard,
And they're like,
Its better than yours,
Damn right its better than yours,
I can teach you,
But I have to charge

Anonymous zen0 March 09, 2013 10:35 AM  

Denninger has a take on the same article:

In the 1990s I observed the same thing in Chicago. I required a High School diploma or GED to apply for a job at my company in the city. Of the applicants approximately 80% could not make change for a $20 in their head nor could they write a basic, grammatically-correct business letter.

In other words they could not read, write and calculate at the level of basic competence expected of 8th graders.

Not a damn thing has changed in the intervening 20 years despite ever-escalating costs.


Obviously, the problem is the Community Colleges and employers not getting with the program.

Anonymous Josh March 09, 2013 10:47 AM  

 I'm sure a large percentage of that 80% don't even have a clue that eggs come from actual chickens, bacon from pigs and that most food in its original state comes up out of the ground.

Dude, everyone knows that bacon comes from rocks.

Anonymous Porky? March 09, 2013 10:48 AM  

But how is their self esteem?

Blogger Revelation Means Hope March 09, 2013 10:53 AM  

Yes, but it keeps the losers who are below average IQ employed as school teachers.

Think of the children (in adult bodies)!

Anonymous Godfrey March 09, 2013 10:53 AM  

Stupid people are easier to control.

That's the purpose of the centeralized government education system.

Blogger Positive Dennis March 09, 2013 10:55 AM  

This is misleading. I took remedial English my first semester in college, yet I scored in the top 2% in math and advanced placement in History. My son was the opposite. he was in the top 5% in English, but will have to take remedial Math. The article does not spell out the exact %. Nor does it state the obvious.

Anonymous robwbright March 09, 2013 10:57 AM  

Did all of you fail to read the entire article?

Isn't the statement "four out of five of the GRADUATES of a major public school system can't read, write, or do math" rather misleading when it appears to be 80% of the grads who try to attend community college?

I would presume that a significant number go on to regular college. Doesn't mean they know how to read, but it would seem more likely than if they were going to community college. Further, it's likely that a significant number graduate and get other jobs (which may or may not require reading skills).

In fact, the article says that "nearly" 11,000 kids needed remedial. I'm quite sure that 11,000 kids is not 80% of the entire NYC high school system. There are about 465,000 students in grades 9-12 (see link below - 1.1 mil with 635k in lower grades). For rough numbers, divide by 4 to get number of kids graduating each year and adjust down for drop outs. For the sake of argument, let's call it 100,000 grads. 11,000 is 11% of 100,000. Still tragic, but hardly the 80% number you stated. Of course, the ones that didn't attend university likely have a high rate of illiteracy, but that's not accounted for in the article.

I strongly dislike public schools and we home school our children. But the situation is not as bad as you have presented it, Vox. The fact is that if one wants to learn to read, one can do it while attending public school. You might have to do it on your own time, but it can be done.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Department_of_Education

Anonymous Sigyn March 09, 2013 11:01 AM  

Well, this explains the kids in those college-during-high-school programs. The last two years of high school are utterly useless.

Anonymous Sigyn March 09, 2013 11:02 AM  

The fact is that if one wants to learn to read, one can do it while attending public school. You might have to do it on your own time, but it can be done.

Does this make public schooling any less of an expensive waste of everyone's time, though?

Blogger Double Minded Man March 09, 2013 11:05 AM  

Playing games is a good incentive to learn to read. Kids want to know what is going on with the game, but the vast majority of games have a fair amount of reading in them. And then there are the strategy books which involve more reading. I used that to help break a spell where I couldn't get my 6 y/o to read. He could totally do it, but was refusing. Didn't last long in the face of books on Skylanders and Pokemon

Anonymous Van March 09, 2013 11:08 AM  

Blacks and latinos are 72% of NYC public school students. Wonder if that has any bearing...

Anonymous Northern Observer March 09, 2013 11:19 AM  

"And it would cost a lot less to provide every "student" with a PlayStation and a new game delivered every month."

You're just trying to get the state to support your gaming habit.

Anonymous cheddarman March 09, 2013 11:22 AM  

65279;Lobotomy, lobotomy, lobotomy, lobotomy!
DDT did a job on me
Now I am a real sickie
Guess I'll have to break the news
That I got no mind to lose.
All the girls are in love with me
I'm a teenage lobotomy.
Slugs and snails are after me
DDT keeps me happy
Now I guess I'll have to tell 'em
That I got no cerebellum.
Gonna get my Ph.D.
I'm a teenage lobotomy.
REPEAT


Teenage Lobotomy, courtesy of the Ramones

sincerely

cheddarman

Anonymous Brutha named Cheddarman March 09, 2013 11:27 AM  

Blacks and latinos are 72% of NYC public school students. - Van


It cause' we don' have no BLACK textbooks!
All the damn textbooks be printed on WHITE paper!
That's raciss!



sincerely

Brutha named Cheddarman

Anonymous Roundtine March 09, 2013 11:28 AM  

The numbers are yet worse, its 80% of students who go on to college need remedial classes.

Anonymous Azimus March 09, 2013 11:28 AM  

Its sort of fatalism in the statistics... can you really blame these kids? Work your @ss off and for what? Go to college, do everything right, get good grades, graduate $100k in debt and work 39hrs a week as a night manager at the Pizza Hut. I'm still driving the same rust-bucket car I drove when I graduated college which was 10yrs ago, I still watch the same 1995 Sony CRT, use the same 7yr old computer, and use a cell phone that doesn't have a keyboard. I don't have cable TV, I borrow my neighbor's wireless signal for the internet. I work 50hrs a wk at my FT job and have a weekend PT job. My neighbors across the street, two adults on disability with a couple of kids, just took delivery of a 60" HD TV. They vote right though - straight ticket democrat. I guess what I'm saying is that we're the suckers, and they understand how their bread gets buttered. Why comply and enslave yourself to a rotten and broken system, when you can relax at home and be paid to watch streaming netflix on your new bigscreen?


Sorry I'm just bitter about the TV.

Blogger mmaier2112 March 09, 2013 11:31 AM  

Duh, Josh. Everybody knows that.

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/4124289_700b.jpg

Blogger Nate March 09, 2013 11:41 AM  

How amusing would it be if we were to learn that the literacy rate amongst the dropouts was actually higher than 20%?

Anonymous Orville March 09, 2013 11:59 AM  

The upside is less competition after the collapse and die off. Just hide your books someplace fireproof.

Anonymous Anonymous March 09, 2013 12:00 PM  

I had the same thought is Nate. Chances are most of those dropouts figured out reading and went and got a job.


farmer Tom

Blogger kurt9 March 09, 2013 12:02 PM  

The content of the article states that 80% of the incoming applicants of the city's community college system need remedial education. The title of the article says 80% of the public school graduates can not read or write. There is a disconnect here. The article does not define what the required skill level is in order to enter the community colleges. Does it include algebra? Most colleges, even community colleges, require algebra and trigonometry as prerequisites. Yet, even in the 1970's, many students graduated from HS without these subjects. What are the requirements for reading and writing?

I am not defending the public school system. I'm sure its as bad, if not worse, that what many of you are saying here. However, this article is poorly written and leaves out details necessary to draw a proper conclusion. Indeed, the article itself is an example of poor journalism which, in turn, is a critique, in and of itself, of our dire education system.

Blogger Res Ipsa March 09, 2013 12:05 PM  

"If we assume that the dropouts have similarly failed to learn the basic skills,"

That or they are smart enough to know that its not workin, so they leave.

Anonymous RINO March 09, 2013 12:11 PM  

If I'm elected president I would mandate 12 years of playing the Civilization series on PC.

Anonymous James May March 09, 2013 12:31 PM  

Many of these kids know more about race and gender issues than they do about 2 plus 2. This is what happens when Critical Pedagogy rules our educational system, and it does. It's exactly why I despise liberal education models and the current trend in science fiction to racialize, tokenize and politicize it. As education takes a back seat to politics in places like NY, so art will take a back seat to politics in SF.

In a similar way, what you see here is how immigration top heavy from the Third World, and in massive numbers, will wreck America. The NYC school system is only a quarter white. Whether liberals like it or not, that is where success comes from and all the blame, PC and stories about white privilege and unfairness won't make that go away. These are hard numbers, and they're being reflected across America. Not only are such people being politically and racially radicalized by liberals and our own educational system, they quite simply come from failed cultures within and without America.

Those cultures aren't failures because of some conspiracy, they simply are what they are. Why? I don't know. Why is a South America colonized long before N. America far behind us instead of ahead of us? Why is black culture stuck on 1965? Liberals have an all encompassing answer - whites are the problem. So, dismantle some more, and keep dismantling and keep diversifying America as a cure.

At some point, you have to stop with the woulda, coulda, shoulda and simply say it is what it is. Educational back rubs that say "there, there, you're coming out of an era of white male-centric power structures and everything will be fine" won't cut it.

Neither will it cut it in SF&F. The brutally stupid doublethink that says it's wrong for white males to write about other white males in a society totally dominated by them while it's right for gay and black authors to write about blacks and gays in a society where they are outnumbered 87% and 97% is too obvious for stupid. May as well say it's been wrong for the Chinese to write about Chinese and so they are racists. It's mindbogglingly idiotic.

It's wrong to give these kids a political education, and trust me, they are. It's a lot easier to learn "people don't like me" than learn an actual skill, and so that's what they major in - blame and excuses 101. Take this argument into any sector of American life where a liberal paradigm holds sway and failure will stare back at you.

Anonymous Azimus March 09, 2013 12:35 PM  

RINO, you might not be far from the next innovation in education, and it could go either way.

Anonymous RINO March 09, 2013 12:44 PM  

Hey, everyone might think Napoleon led France during the stone age, but at least they'd have some idea of who Napoleon was, better than they do now for sure.

But on public education in general: I think public schools get a bad rap, particularly with the claim that they are indoctrination centers. While the higher ups might try to make them indoctrination centers that is not the result in reality. I'm some years removed from high school but I remember it well enough to know that it was basically just a petri dish of insubordination. It was a glorified daycare center. It's a waste of time.

Anonymous Andy March 09, 2013 12:54 PM  

PZ myers teaches in Minnesota.

Anonymous FP March 09, 2013 1:03 PM  

I spent far too much of my free time playing Civ1 in high school. That and Railroad Tycoon.

I remember shocking one of my social studies teachers in that I knew where Mali was on a map and who Mansa Musa was (I'd actually bothered to read the class textbook ahead of the assignment). I don't think they put him into a civ game until #4 though. Civ5 went overboard when they made a bunch of civs into DLC. The publisher asking $2 for the Babylon Civ was amusing.

Anonymous CitizenOutkast March 09, 2013 1:23 PM  

I can tell you from my own job that most of the looks I see are dead-eyed and uncomprehending. Ask kids to do something that involves thought and you won't get it, but ask them something about a TV show or singer and they can recite a litany of irrelevant and useless "facts." It's all about what they care for, and they don't care for learning. The propaganda and self-esteem nonsense is working, though.

Anonymous scoobius dubious March 09, 2013 1:26 PM  

Ah c'mon, we all know what's really going on.

I went to grade school with a bunch of working-class white kids who were mostly semi-poor and mostly dumber than a box of rocks, but somehow despite their lack of 'privilege' they all grew up to get jobs, get married, buy houses and raise families, and only one of them went to jail. And now all their children are either polite, well-behaved, badly misinformed college kids who read a lot of post-modern nonsense (well I disapprove but I can't condemn: as a snotty working-class college kid myself, I read a lot of Antonin Artaud and that sort of thing, and my elders also disapproved), sensible young doctors and nurses, or skilled tradesmen.

Meanwhile, back in the public schools, the white kids have all been driven out for what should by now be rather obvious reasons, and the public school classroom now consists of Malik, Detrayvious, Pedro, Ngoshi, and Mohammed. With predictable results.

This isn't exactly Agatha Christie, people. A quick listen to the New York Dolls cover of "Stranded in the Jungle" should give you a large portion of what you need to understand.

Anonymous PC Geek March 09, 2013 1:31 PM  

@rob

I strongly dislike public schools and we home school our children. But the situation is not as bad as you have presented it, Vox. The fact is that if one wants to learn to read, one can do it while attending public school. You might have to do it on your own time, but it can be done.

I am sure that you are an intelligent person but I don't think that you thought this one through - read through what you wrote, this time very carefully:

to learn to read, one can do it while attending public school. You might have to do it on your own time

Then why are they going to school in the first place?

Socialization?

Anonymous James May March 09, 2013 1:57 PM  

If a culture can do a thing, they will have already done it. Some have, some haven't. Reality doesn't care about excuses, blame or self-pity. Excuses, blame and self-pity is the centerpiece of modern liberalism, with race and gender stacked tightly inside. In other words, it's a perfect paradigm of failure.

Anonymous E. PERLINE March 09, 2013 2:17 PM  

It isn't the fashion to be articulate.
The star athletes of today are paid mllions, yet they have a hard time expressing themselves.

If they, and their poorer brethren can't express themselves, they are much slower to recover from mental breakdowns.

Anonymous scoobius dubious March 09, 2013 2:29 PM  

"The star athletes of today are paid millions, yet they have a hard time expressing themselves."

Au contraire, mon frere. These stupid, rubber-ball-throwing male negroes express themselves perfectly and don't have a hard time of it at all; which is to say, they express them_selves_. The fact that you may frown on the ludicrous nature of what exactly it is that they're expressing, is a phenomenon independent of a full-grown male negro's actual limited sense of its identity.

There isn't a copy of the Odyssey magically hidden inside the center of a canteloupe. It's just a friggin' canteloupe.



Anonymous Vermont Guy March 09, 2013 2:32 PM  

A story if I may.

Way back in the early 70's St. Louis Missouri was having a teacher's strike. Illegal of course but the schools were closed.

The Mayor at the time, Alfonso Cervantes, held a press conference. At this conference he said that, "It is very important that our children return to school."

Interrupting the Mayor one of the reporters blurted out, "Why?"

This took the Mayor aback. Someone was asking why are sacred cows sacred. This reporter was from the local alternative radio station. Probably he was wearing his hair in a pony tail and dressed in blue denim overalls and sandals. While all the other media would publish sound bites this station would broadcast the whole thing block to block. That's how I heard it.

But the mayor was ready with a question of his own, "What?"

"Why is it important for the children to be in school?" the reporter expanded. The station's position was that the kids were learning more watching their teachers "stick it to the man" then they would ever learn in classes. The reporter was on a mission. He was speaking truth to power.

As God is my witness, I swear, the mayor, of all the things he could have said, responded, "Vandalism is a major problem in the city and when the children aren't in school vandalism increases."

Learning? We don't need no learning. Preventative detention, that's what we need. Guilt by association. Lock up a whole class of citizens. What's all this about reading and math?

Now you know.

You probably also know why the radio station was the subject of a drug raid. The Mayor was speaking power to truth.

Anonymous Chancellor Gorkon March 09, 2013 2:40 PM  

Most of the ilk have probably seen this, but for those who haven't, I'm reposting it. It might be a hoax, but if it's accurate, it's quite amazing the way standards have dropped in a century. Enjoy.

http://www.barefootsworld.net/1895finalexam.html

Anonymous E. PERLINE March 09, 2013 2:46 PM  

The star athletes express themselves with jazzy metaphors that they hear in their group. The rappers express themselves with doggeral they threw together. But they don't clarify their problems. It's a recipe for permanently muddled thinking.

Anonymous Van March 09, 2013 3:03 PM  

It's a subspecies with few individuals capable of non-muddled thinking.

Anonymous scoobius dubious March 09, 2013 3:06 PM  

"It's a recipe for permanently muddled thinking."

You seem to be under the impression that but for a few minor changes, they'd somehow be capable of non-muddled thinking.

One of the problems of dealing politically with blacks as a cohesive bloc in America, is that it's not possible to get them to understand just how much they can't understand. A person with an IQ of 90 not only doesn't know the same things as a person with an IQ of 135; they also don't know that they don't know, and they don't know that they _can't_ know, the things that the 135 person knows.

Anonymous Anonagain March 09, 2013 3:19 PM  

Apart from producing nothing but illiterate drones for the Leftist collective, public schools are a significant drain on the local economy. The amount of property taxes I am forced to pay each year to fund these indoctrination camps for third world losers and other vibrants could be spent on many different consumer products, including big ticket items, put in a savings account, or home improvement projects. I can only imagine the economical boom if every homeowner were free from this tax burden. Instead, I pay a monthly amount equal to an apartment's rent or lose my home.

To add insult to injury, a large percentage of students in these public hellholes come from families who live in apartments. The parents don't pay property taxes nor likely income taxes, since the majority are illegal aliens or on some kind of government welfare. Essentially, government forces the productive, legal and hard-working whites to support creatures who wouldn't piss on us if we were on fire.

Anonymous James May March 09, 2013 4:02 PM  

Surprise! In Minnesota, failure is concentrated in Minneapolis-St. Paul, which in recent years has seen the percentage of its inhabitants from the Third World soar.

Now you know why the Third World is the Third World and why the immigrant version of school busing, the notion of success by touching and osmosis, is a failure. Success can absorb only so much failure before it is compromised to the point of extinction. I thought I once read that at it's height the Roman army was composed of 60% Roman citizens. Just before the final bath, 1%.

Naturally this will once again be laid at the feet of racism and bigotry and the response will be more books with more diversity and in 100 years kids will make a living digging out impressive devices from underneath shanty towns to be reverse engineered by the new masters. Because lord knows if we just had enough diversity...

Anonymous Noah B. March 09, 2013 4:32 PM  

Consider, though, who is actually evaluating these students and how determinations are met that they lack proficiency in various subject areas. For example, if a student does not subscribe to various cornerstones of the collectivist belief system (e.g., anthropogenic global warming), is that student likely to be labeled as non-proficient in science?

Consider also the motive in reporting this. While many here (myself included) find news of students' general lack of proficiency to be all the evidence needed to justify the dismantling of the public school system nationwide, those journalists who have authored this and other similar articles probably view students' lack of preparation for college as sufficient justification for increasing school budgets yet again.

I guess I don't really have a point other than that I don't believe anything in the news anymore.

Anonymous Ghost of Gatto March 09, 2013 4:58 PM  

Of course, they do not spend those monies on the children.
But it's for the Children!!
And don't you damn well forget it either.

Anonymous Ferd March 09, 2013 7:38 PM  

I believe Obama came from a similar educational system, of highest scholastic excellence, in Hawaii.

Didn't he choom his way through?

Anonymous dh March 09, 2013 7:59 PM  

One has to wonder what the argument for public school is supposed to be when four out of five of the GRADUATES of a major public school system can't read, write, or do math:

This is not an accurate representation of what the article purports to report.

There is a huge difference between "needs remedial help" and "can't read, write or do math".

The real story is that colleges take students who 25 years ago would have entered the trades, or some other career path not involving a 4-year degree.

But why bother being literate when you can entrapped by click-farming jerks like Matt Drudge.

Anonymous Anonymous March 09, 2013 8:25 PM  

I like how James May completely ignores the economic aspects of the issue. OF course the Third World kids must behind because they are INFERIOR BEINGS. Good job.

And I see that Vox continues to lack the ability to properly grasp statistics.

Anonymous Stryker March 09, 2013 9:02 PM  

My nephew attended NYC schools for a year and a half. He is shocked the literacy rate is that high. He described classes with 40 kids having only five text books to share between them. He had to go to the public library and hope they had a copy that he could put on a Xerox machine. Teachers gave 'lessons' and assigned homework, but only the most motivated and determined could find the resources to complete their assignments.

Anonymous James May March 09, 2013 9:34 PM  

Yes, the answer is always my racism. That's why sh-tholes from Belize City, to Jakarta to Cairo to La Paz to Kathmandu to Guatemala City to Denpensar exist - cuz I'm a racist. Amazing coincidence how economic prosperity follows Europeans around and bad luck dogs non-Europeans. Even the Falkland Islanders do well in the middle of nowhere.

If that was Haitians in the Falklands they'd be well past the mud-cookie phase and into extinction by pooping out babies they can't feed and acting like morons.

It is what it is and The Third World is full of the resources it takes to make great countries. It only lacks the people to do it. Bringing them hear will only put off the inevitable and drag our country down too.

Anonymous Anonymous March 09, 2013 9:53 PM  

Yeah, amazing coincidence how the cultures that enslaved and dominated other countries/peoples kept themselves rich. Zounds. I think you might be onto something here.

I, of course, would never stoop to calling you a racist. You have a Brazilian girlfriend! You shook hands with the Muslim brotherhood! You have black friends!

Anonymous James May March 09, 2013 10:05 PM  

You must've bopped over from Tor.com. Tell 'em extra starch in the sheets next time and that I'm writing an SF novel full of black and gay children and cute kitty cats smuggled into alien worlds for use in making chip dip.

It's my heart-rending symbolic re-imagining of Heart of Darkness. There's lots of fart jokes and gender puns so it's a hijinx-filled laugh riot of stunning proportions. Plus there's sad clowns galore crying down by a river playing violins every time a gay, black transgendered kid gets passed into a privy by the magic alchemy of alien bowels.

Anonymous Anonymous March 09, 2013 10:12 PM  

Yup. When people point out that you're full of shit, just redirect them with audience pandering. Good plan. :)

Anonymous James May March 09, 2013 10:30 PM  

You can't point out that people are full of anything without an argument. All you have is wishful thinking. I've spent years in the Third World. That's where my opinions were formed, from direct observation, not wishes, for their good or ill.

Observation trumps wishing, even if it's very nice wishing. I'm afraid the world is simply not like you wish it is. Prosecutors don't have witnesses that tell what they wish, but witnesses who've actually, get ready for this... witnessed something. Amazing an adult would have to be told that.

Anyway, I hope you like my new novel "Conanina Saladina Keboncey vs the Completely Lucky Albino Men-Things." I smell Nebula already.

Anonymous scoobius dubious March 09, 2013 10:32 PM  

Anonymous -- please choose a name, so that I will know who personally to ridicule and painfully correct in the future. Thx -- and by that I don't mean the movie or the sound system.

Anonymous Anonymous March 09, 2013 10:32 PM  

OH shit! You mean observing people in the Third World, where they are directly impacted by the fact that they're growing up in poverty, has led you to believe that they must be inferior people. There's no way that a white European baby, that had to grow up in those same conditions would be anything but extraordinary!

Blogger IM2L844 March 09, 2013 10:34 PM  

If that was Haitians in the Falklands they'd be well past the mud-cookie phase and into extinction by pooping out babies they can't feed and acting like morons.

Hell, you don't have to look that far. Just take a closer look at Camden, New Jersy.

Q: In a city of ~77,000 people, what do the following household demographics produce?

Hispanic - 36,379 (47.0%)
Black alone - 34,277 (44.3%)
White alone - 3,792 (4.9%)
Asian alone - 1,599 (2.1%)
Two or more races - 938 (1.2%)
American Indian alone - 235 (0.3%)
Other race alone - 109 (0.1%)
Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander alone - 15 (0.02%)

A: Per capita, the most murderous and generally criminally inclined city in the U.S.A. where the government, education and health care are the biggest employers and where more than 20% of the population live below the poverty level. It's also not surprising that Barack Obama got more than 91% of the vote in Camden.

Coming soon to a neighborhood near you!

The demographics are not the results of the circumstances. The circumstances are a consequence of the demographics.

Anonymous Anonymous March 09, 2013 10:47 PM  

Maybe it's not just Vox Day that doesn't understand statistics, causation, and correlation. Seems endemic to the system.

Anonymous James May March 09, 2013 10:57 PM  

We understand cause and effect - you just have to present the mechanics of how it works. Whites evil racists = blacks screwed ain't exactly a mathematical expression.

Any way, support my next book, which I'm writing under an alias, Salaami Kibuki Wayang Kuzooontites. It's called, "Ain't No White People in My Future - Musta Been A Plague or Something."

Compelling science fiction. I smell woman of the year award cuz with my new pedigree, it'll be whitelisted for sure.

Anonymous scoobius dubious March 09, 2013 11:04 PM  

"Yeah, amazing coincidence how the cultures that enslaved and dominated other countries/peoples kept themselves rich."

You mean like the way the Turks, who enslaved and dominated Europeans for centuries, are still the richest guys in town? You mean like how the Arabs, who did the exact same thing and far, far worse, still have lots of cool stuff besides oil money to fall back on?

You mean like how the Arawaks, who enslaved and dominated the Caribs (or maybe it's the other way around, I can never recall), built that fantastic, splendidly wealthy city in the Caribbean that we talk about to this day? You mean like how the Hurons, who enslaved and dominated neighboring Indian tribes, built the fabulous city of Huronia, which went on to conquer China?

Or maybe you mean like the Irish, who after enduring six or seven centuries of the most appalling oppression you can imagine, within a few decades (an eye-blink in historical terms) rebounded and turned their legendarily damp, cold, poor, miserable island into a prosperous, civilized, well-ordered place that half of Nigeria and Vietnam wants to move to? Curiously, the Irish don't seem at all interested in mass-migrating to Nigeria, despite its vast oil wealth. The world's a funny place.

Anonymous Anonymous March 09, 2013 11:34 PM  

I guess I missed the part of the last thousand years that "the Turks" dominated Europe.

Anonymous Northern Observer March 09, 2013 11:53 PM  

Anon: stop. just stop. it's getting really embarrassing.

"Yeah, amazing coincidence how the cultures that enslaved and dominated other countries/peoples kept themselves rich."
- Name 5 cultures that didn't enslave or dominate other countries/peoples (or at least try to). You may as well have said that whites have been more successful because they breath oxygen (hint, it's a fairly common trait, even among the less successful)

Also:
"centuries" != "last thousand years"
"dominated Europeans" != "dominated Europe"

Knocking down arguments that have not been made is not "Winning!".

Anonymous Anonymous March 10, 2013 12:17 AM  

I'll agree with you there. You are all an embarrassing lot. :)

Anonymous Brian March 10, 2013 1:43 AM  

Vox should change the rule to "No Anonymous comments, unless Anonymous spews so much inane drivel that the ilk are sufficiently amused by the comedic value and cannot allow said poster to leave."

Anonymous scoobius dubious March 10, 2013 1:57 AM  

"I guess I missed the part of the last thousand years that "the Turks" dominated Europe."

Huh. Guess so. So like, what did you do... accidentally hit the "Delete" key during your five-hour introductory online course in 'European History For Dummies' at Cosmo's Online College of the Universe, and lose the whole two-page Microsoft Office summary culled from the Wiki entry? I hope you got your tuition money back, or at least some free chicken. Or maybe you talked the Assistant Vice-Chancellor for Diversity and Inclusion into printing out your diploma in high-res, on the glossy paper, with the extra pixels, instead of the regular way. Looks a little nicer like that, and they do such a good job of framing it over at FastFrames. Ask for Mike, he'll hook you up.

"You are all an embarrassing lot."

(CHANNELLING GRAHAM CHAPMAN): "embarrassing lot"... erm, no my dear, I'm afraid it simply won't do, it's such a tinny turn of phrase. Very tinny. Now, "sorry lot," that would have been good and woody. Hmmm, yes, rather. Woooooody.... (SHOOTS A CARIBOU ON THE LAWN THAT WAS NIBBLING AT THE CROQUET WICKETS)

Anonymous cannibal_animal March 10, 2013 3:01 AM  

I'll speak to my own experience in the public schools:

Crappy parents raise crappy children almost without fail. Good parents (and I include things like class and intelligence in this) generally (but not always) raise good children. That's why I break from the ilk on this one issue and support abortion and birth control being much more common, even though I do view the former as morally wrong. Our species has enough members, and we possess the ability through passive eugenics to raise our society intellectually, culturally, and morally. I think having a bunch of rabbits producing hordes of ignorant, uncultured spawn is inferior to having reasonably intelligent, cultured, well-mannered people producing at a replacement rate or perhaps a bit below it. Does it make me an elitist to think that the People of Wal-Mart don't need to reproduce? Probably. Do I care? Not really.

Blogger IM2L844 March 10, 2013 3:05 AM  

Maybe it's not just Vox Day that doesn't understand statistics, causation, and correlation. Seems endemic to the system.

Why do you insist on being intellectually dishonest with yourself? I don't like the facts any better than you do, but facts are facts. You can't simply pretend they don't exist.

Let's stick with the example of Camden, New Jersy because it's been in the news a lot lately. The statistics paint a perfectly clear picture.

Camden, New Jersey Demographics - Crime Rate Indexes
Camden, New Jersey Demographics - Education Level Profile and Enrollment Statistics
Camden, New Jersey Demographics - Quality of Life Indexes
Camden, New Jersey Demographics - Weather, Forecast, Temperature and Precipitation
Camden, New Jersey Demographics - Pollution Indexes
Camden, New Jersey Demographics - Population Growth and Population Statistics
Camden, New Jersey Demographics - Population by Age
Camden, New Jersey Demographics - Population by Race and Ethnicity
Camden, New Jersey Demographics - Household Makeup and Size
Camden, New Jersey Demographics - Number of Vehicles Per Household
Camden, New Jersey Demographics - Housing Statistics, Occupancy and Year Built
Camden, New Jersey Demographics - Home Values and Rental Rates
Camden, New Jersey Demographics - Employment, Occupation and Industry
Camden, New Jersey Demographics - Travel Time and Mode of Transportation to Work
Camden, New Jersey Demographics - Employee Statistics by NAICS Code
Camden, New Jersey Demographics - Establishment Statistics by NAICS Code
Camden, New Jersey Demographics - Household Income Statistics
Camden, New Jersey Demographics - Retail Sales Statistics


If you were to swap out the population of Camden with the population of a similar sized city, but racially more representative of the national averages, the dynamics would immediately change and within 20 years, if the demographics remained relatively steady, Camden would probably be thriving again.

Anonymous VryeDenker March 10, 2013 4:29 AM  

Who needs literacy when you got SWAG?

Anonymous AdognamedOp March 10, 2013 6:05 AM  

I served time in the NYC lobotomy factories back in the 70's and early 80's.
I was knee deep in the shit when the Marxist movement of the late sixties unleashed its drones to complete the takeover of the system. I saw old school male teachers, who instilled discipline and kept order, phased out; replaced by ugly, pale, silk scarf wearing broads named after precious metals and dull colors.
I saw how classic plays like the HMS Pinafore were replaced with vibrant, nonsensical creations by our new overlords. I wont forget that poor Hindu kid who wept uncontrollably when the witches divided the class up by ethincity and made them sing songs they didn't know. Poor bastard was the only Indian kid and had to stand alone and sing some Hindu song. The pale witches remedied his trauma by putting him in with the four asian kids. I'm sure he still hears that asian song in his head to this day.
I only got worse from there.
Luckily I had the good fortune and common sense to take a test, learn a trade and work from the neck down for a good wage. The 2k default on the Community college loan was not a bad price to pay for my freedom.

Anonymous AdognamedOp March 10, 2013 6:07 AM  

*It.. only got worse from there*
..well,..yeah

Anonymous James May March 10, 2013 7:28 AM  

Anonymous, whether he's doing an impression and trolling or is truly so ignorant of history and how successful systems and people work is, either way, an excellent example of liberal viewpoints that are steeped in the lie of Critical Pedagogy. In CP, race and gender matter more than skills, and history is mysteriously altered so that whites were the only colonialists and bad guys in history. It's why liberals hate the balanced history of the Atlantic slave trade, because without blacks, it never would have existed. Whites didn't capture blacks, they bought blacks enslaved by other blacks. In Alex Haley's plagiarized lie called "Roots," whites swept into the interior of Africa and caught blacks in nets. In fact this never happened.

It's typical liberal racist hypocrisy that distributes morality according to race and gender rather than using a dispassionate view of history and current events.

To a liberal, the Third World are Herbert's clever but oppressed Fremen and Europeans the powerful but stupid and morally inferior Harkonnens.

Blacks, women and gays know the "real" deal and Europeans have dark hearts. Without the beneficial leavening of diversity, male Europeans and civilization itself have no chance to realize its full potential. This is the fantasy liberals sell.

It's why liberals rail at science fiction writers who depict no blacks in the future. But extrapolating real life into the future to mean black asteroid settlements is more fantasy than SF can handle, since there is no such paradigm that exists to extrapolate this from. It's simply wishful thinking, and racist. For liberals to rail against the opposite traditional SF is like saying Chinese are Chinese supremacists because they write about Chinese. In fact, to be a supremacist in that regard, one would have to posit black enclaves in China ruling the place in the future, rather than Chinese. How does one arrive at blacks ruling China or blacks ruling high Earth orbit without racially exaggerating reality? In the exact opposite fashion, how does one arrive at a guilty and racist West without censoring history to accommodate that view?

Today's politicized groups that represent history's second place finishers are basically liars. Muslim historians love to cut off history at a convenient point and call Westerners "Crusaders," even though the amount of territory both in terms of physical space and time Muslims conquered and kept compared to the European Crusaders is literally an order of magnitude higher. Look at a map - every Muslim area on the Mediterranean littoral was once Christian, and taken by force. The areas the Crusaders held lasted a few decades, were tiny enclaves, and quickly disappeared. Today the Christian West could enslave the entire Middle East and take the oil for free yet it does not. That make liberals once again liars.

Black activists love to point out how blacks are no different from anyone else and then say we need their view point because it is "diverse." How can that be so if they are no different? Liberals are saying blacks are in fact innately different intellectually, and women too. Once it is established a thing is different, it is never the same, it is either better or worse. It is a dangerously philosophy and why liberals are anti-racist, racists.

Anonymous Van March 10, 2013 8:03 AM  

If white domination/subjugation of nonwhites is the cause of the lack of development we see in the third world today, how did whites find themselves in the position to dominate/subjugate in the first place?

Logically, this disparity among civilizations couldn't exist prior to the cause of said disparity. Yet, the superior position required to dominate resulted from superior technology.

Anonymous Van March 10, 2013 8:16 AM  

Don't forget the black historical revisionists, where the Moors, ancient Egyptians, and Carthaginians are claimed as black (all unquestionably false). White liberals go along with the lies, as proof of the hidden greatness of blacks.

And of course the claims about modern technology (electricity most common example) developed by blacks thousands of years ago, then "stolen" by whites. I can't believe the number of "educated" blacks who believe that one. It does demonstrate the total lack of comprehension of technology - whites "stole" the information, therefore blacks can't make use of it anymore.

Anonymous dh March 10, 2013 4:19 PM  

Logically, this disparity among civilizations couldn't exist prior to the cause of said disparity. Yet, the superior position required to dominate resulted from superior technology.

It doesn't really solve anything to argue with the MAPI crowd. Just move on.

There is a lot of interesting scholarship being done on parallel civilization development.

Think in terms of the non-human timescale - the geological or universal timescale.

Civilization A is by definition the Western one. It's course is characterized by periods of intense technological and civil advancement, periods of some decline, repeat.

Civilization B never grows much, stays rooted in ancestral lands, and eventually must be protected from Civilization A because otherwise it would go extinct.

Fast the clock 500 generations. Civilization A has destroyed itself five times over with abominable weapons, and damaged the habitat. Civilization B is more or less the same, surviving in a small tract of land and scraping by, always a few generations from dying out if the wrong events occur.

Which civilization is the "winner"?

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