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Wednesday, May 08, 2013

Mailvox: the shortest genre

Phony is convinced he has evidence lending support to the myth of the Woman Warrior:
"The amusing thing is that throughout the comments, no one even stops to realize that the entire premise of women attempting to fight with swords is physically ridiculous. "

Nusaybah bint Ka'ab.

Dipshit.
Very well, let's examine the military career of this famous female warrior, which is recounted on Wikipedia:

"Initially, Nusaybah was attending the Battle of Uhud like other women, and her intention was to bring water to the soldiers, while her husband and two sons fought. But after the Muslim archers disobeyed their orders and began deserting their high ground believing victory was at hand, the tide of the battle changed, and it appeared that defeat was imminent. When this occurred, Nusaybah entered the battle, carrying a sword and shield.

"She shielded Muhammad from the arrows of the enemy, and received several wounds while fighting.

"When a horse-mounted Quraish attacked her, she pulled on the horse's bridle and plunged her sword into its neck, toppling the horse on top of its rider. Witnessing this, Muhammad then yelled for Abdullah to help his mother and the pair dispatched the struggling rider. The pair then circled around Muhammad, throwing stones at the advancing Quraish troops, until Muhammad noticed Nusaybah's wounds and ordered her son to bandage them, and praised their heroism. Abdullah was wounded himself, as a Quraish cut across his left arm, and Nusaybah treated him and told him not to lose courage. Picking her sword back up, she was complimented by Muhammad on her own courage and he pointed out the man who had wounded her son. Advancing to him, she cut his leg off with a blow of her sword, and he fell to the ground where he was killed by other fighters.

"Nusaybah's twelfth wound, cut across her shoulder by a Quraish named Ibn Qumiah, left her unconscious on the battlefield. When she awoke after the battle, her first inquiry was whether Muhammad had survived."

So, this most exemplary of all women warriors managed to unhorse one rider and cripple one man in a tribal skirmish while trying to defend her family in a desperate situation.  If we are to take Nusaybah as sufficient justification for the plethora of female Conans that presently litter bad fantasy, we should also believe that it is perfectly realistic to have your average suburban mother throwing around Chevrolets.  This is akin to asserting that because a middle-aged woman shot a home intruder once, it's perfectly realistic to write about female SEALs.

And note that this fearsome woman warrior took no less than twelve wounds, very nearly got herself killed, and never took arms again.  Courageous? Indubitably. A warrior? No. Not in the slightest. If this is the historical basis for women warriors, the genre is going to consist of a series of very slim volumes indeed.

Has Phony ever hit a woman?  Has he ever seen a woman's head snap back, seen her knees buckle, and stood over her as she lays crumpled on the floor?  Has he ever bloodied a woman's nose or blackened a woman's eyes?  Has he ever toyed with a woman desperately trying to lay a hand on him before stepping forward and flattening her with a single jab?

I have. It wasn't even amusing because it was so easy.  I had a harder time fighting a well-trained eleven year old boy.  I wasn't even throwing any combinations or throwing my strikes at more than half-force, and that was still enough to lay them out. If you are a man who hasn't ever hit a woman in the face, or if you are a woman who hasn't ever been beaten up by a man, your opinion on the subject is guaranteed to be irrelevant. The cumulative difference in speed, strength, and mass simply has to be experienced to be believed.

I sincerely encourage anyone who wishes to write about women warriors to visit a full-contact dojo and ask to spar a few rounds with the opposite sex.  They will accommodate you and it will be an eye-opening experience.

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130 Comments:

Anonymous Toby Temple May 08, 2013 5:57 AM  

Woman warriors in fiction are handled pretty well by the Japanese hentai industry.

Blogger Crude May 08, 2013 6:17 AM  

Has Phony ever hit a woman? Has he ever seen a woman's head snap back, seen her knees buckle, and stood over her as she lays crumpled on the floor? Has he ever bloodied a woman's nose or blackened a woman's eyes? Has he ever toyed with a woman desperately trying to lay a hand on him before stepping forward and flattening her with a single jab?

I have the feeling that the same people who will insist that women are every bit or almost every bit as physically capable as men are going to see this quote - which amounts to treating women as something approaching equal in a normal sparring/training setting - as pure concentrated evil.

Anonymous MrGreenMan May 08, 2013 6:20 AM  

It seemed like the Scalzi-fellator also missed the original point regarding body armor: this woman would have had none, as she was originally there amongst the other women watching the battle and bringing water to their husbands and sons.

It's also funny when the sword and sorcery/knights and dragons comes from the Christian knight to try to find the Christian warrior woman allegedly based on a Muslim. (You don't see many Saracens at the Renaissance Fair.) Maybe they could cite Molly Pitcher as well.

Blogger Markku May 08, 2013 6:25 AM  

"Has Phony ever hit a woman? Has he ever seen a woman's head snap back, seen her knees buckle, and stood over her as she lays crumpled on the floor? Has he ever bloodied a woman's nose or blackened a woman's eyes? Has he ever toyed with a woman desperately trying to lay a hand on him before stepping forward and flattening her with a single jab?"

So tell me have you ever really
- really really ever smacked a woman?

Anonymous Heh May 08, 2013 6:26 AM  

I love the way the white knights were desperately flailing to find one example, as if the existence of one woman who fought with a sword, at some point in history, could counterbalance the overwhelming evidence of thousands of years of history in which billions of women did not fight with swords.

And these are the people who think they believe in "science" as opposed to the irrational Christian zealots...

Anonymous Toby Temple May 08, 2013 6:36 AM  

So tell me have you ever really
- really really ever smacked a woman?


Does smacking her ass count?

Blogger Markku May 08, 2013 6:42 AM  

"Does smacking her ass count?"

No.

When you smack a woman then stand by
her crumpled body
When you smack a woman then
make sure her head snaps back
So tell me have you ever really
- really really ever smacked a woman?

Anonymous TJIC May 08, 2013 6:44 AM  

> Has he ever toyed with a woman desperately trying to lay a hand on him before stepping forward and flattening her with a single jab?

MMA practice? Other?

Details!

Anonymous TheExpat May 08, 2013 6:44 AM  

Yeah, I'd bet Phony's never hit that.

Anonymous VryeDenker May 08, 2013 6:45 AM  

As a Taekwondo instructor, I never had the heart to punch one of my female students with any force whatsoever. I never even thought about kicking (TKD is first and foremost about kicking fast and hard). I made the girls spar with boys about 3 years younger and even then the boys got the upper hand most of the time (unless they were goofing around). This obviously applies to the teenybopper age group. I've never put any woman up against a boy over the age of 16. Simply because I wanted them to improve, not be totally discouraged.

Anonymous Kyle In Japan May 08, 2013 6:55 AM  

"Woman warriors in fiction are handled pretty well by the Japanese hentai industry."

Berserk isn't hentai, but it's a real testament to the ridiculousness of the Woman Warrior trope that the female protagonist becomes considerably more likeable (if less interesting) after she looses her mind and grows her hair out.

Anonymous Tom May 08, 2013 6:56 AM  

I would have thought Spacebunny could have at least landed a slap or a kick before crumpling like that...

Where's the winking devil smiley on here...

By the way, how could you possible hit a girl? You are just disgusting. Swear word, swear word, incomprehensible muttering.

Anonymous poopoo platter May 08, 2013 7:00 AM  

Just read Wardog's Coin and I'm now confused, what's the historical basis for pig riding orc?

Also, has GW sued you yet?

Anonymous VryeDenker May 08, 2013 7:08 AM  

Just read Wardog's Coin and I'm now confused, what's the historical basis for pig riding orc?

That time yo mama traveled through Africa?

Anonymous VD May 08, 2013 7:08 AM  

MMA practice? Other?

Just MMA training. It was no big deal. I never knocked any of them out and never even broke anything on anyone, although one woman did think I broke her wrist when I blocked one of her punches. But it turned out to be just a bad bruise. We were always pretty careful to not hurt them; you didn't spar with women until you had reached a certain level and possessed sufficient control to dial it down to the appropriate level.

It was good for them, though. When our women fought women from other dojos, they absolutely demolished them.

Anonymous Conrad The Crazed May 08, 2013 7:10 AM  

I've recently started watching the History Channel's new series 'Vikings'. Apparently, at least according to the show (and supported to an extent by a brief cruise through the interwebs), the vikings regularly took female warriors on their raiding voyages. This is supposedly one way the term 'shield maiden' came into the warrior-babe vernacular.

I simply can't wrap my mind around the idea that women were somehow able to effectively fight with axe, sword, and shield....during the friggin' VIKING era. Unless Brunhilde truly was equal in mass, constitution, and dexterity as Olaf. In which case I begin to realize why Olaf and crew were always boating away...far away....to raid and plunder. Egads!

Anonymous Tom May 08, 2013 7:12 AM  

Hey Vox, on the topic of fantasy versimilitude, do you know of any good resources to help make a believable fantasy economy?

I like the details that slip into Selenoth. For example: the provincial governorships being places for Amorrians to make fortunes, the way that the city in "A Magic Broken" functioned, and the quality of the housing available to common people in Amorr proper.

I want my world I'm trying to write to ring true along economic lines as well as other ways. Any advice? Are you basing your details most on historical examples?

I've caught myself wondering if I'm missing some major changes that should happen to a typical medieval society based on the fantasy elements I'm including in my world.

Anonymous realmatt May 08, 2013 7:21 AM  

Bane used to periodically repost his most interesting stories. After a decade maybe you should too.

Blogger mmaier2112 May 08, 2013 7:22 AM  

For a while, I thought my girlfriend was joking about being amazed when I pinned her down without trying. Women really do not have a clue, do they?

They need to invent robot sparring partners so they can see what happens when men AREN'T taking it easy on them. The real world would be far less forgiving.

Blogger tz May 08, 2013 7:24 AM  

I've heard that Joan of Arc was just divine as a warrior.

That said, I doubt women would be effective in the front lines, but in a raid, the women could do the business of pillage while the men took out.

But you will note even the suicide bombers and the others in Islam are smart enough to leave the women at home. In fact, one of the reasons they find us dishonorable is because we don't respect that in our home invasions - the man is the protector, the women have their areas men don't go into. "Collateral damage" is our killing women and children.

Of course they are smart enough to eliminate feminists within their society.

Feminism needs gammas with guns.

Blogger V May 08, 2013 7:44 AM  

Far too many years ago, my girlfriend at the time was a good amateur boxer. She kept after me for months to spar with her. She was sure she was fast enough so as to compensate for the 80lbs. differential.

One liver shot later, she had a new understanding as to why there are weight-classes.

Anonymous Peter Garstig May 08, 2013 7:59 AM  

You all misunderstand.

In a world where raising your voice (aka shrieking, or squee) is considered violence, there is an abundance of female warriors.

Anonymous VryeDenker May 08, 2013 8:02 AM  

You all misunderstand.

In a world where raising your voice (aka shrieking, or squee) is considered violence, there is an abundance of female warriors.


Not to mention gun-shaped sandwiches causing mass-fainting and hysteria.

Anonymous VD May 08, 2013 8:03 AM  

Apparently, at least according to the show (and supported to an extent by a brief cruise through the interwebs), the vikings regularly took female warriors on their raiding voyages.

Right... they took female warriors along for their fighting prowess. That's probably the reason. I imagine we'll also discover that they brought fresh water along on their voyages in order to drown their enemies in it, not to drink it en route.

I want my world I'm trying to write to ring true along economic lines as well as other ways. Any advice? Are you basing your details most on historical examples?

Read history. Then read some more. Yes, most of the details are either historical examples or logical extrapolations of historical examples.

One liver shot later, she had a new understanding as to why there are weight-classes.

That's not just true for women. I had lifted with a 235-pound Marine, and at 175, could outbench and outcurl him. I'd beaten him twice before when we'd sparred, but the third time, on the basis of knowing my strength advantage, I decided to go toe-to-toe with him. I hit him, he hit me, I hit him, he hit me, I went down.

I got up, hit him, he hit me, I hit him again, he hit me again, I went down.

Lesson: 235 pounds absorbs more force than 175 pounds.

My instructor laughed when he asked what on Earth I was doing and I explained it was an experiment. Or, as he described it, "a failed experiment."

Anonymous Beau May 08, 2013 8:04 AM  

OT

In prayers upon my bed in the early hours of this morning, a thought emerged fully formed in astonishing clarity and the peal of a bell. I thought to myself this is the answer to someone's question:

I did not lose a son; I sent him on ahead.


If you've drawn comfort from this, keep it. It's for you.

Anonymous anon123 May 08, 2013 8:08 AM  

The chronicler then filled a piped that he first handed to the Prophet and verily, it was good.

Anonymous Harsh May 08, 2013 8:14 AM  

I'm confused, why does Phony always sign off as "dipshit?" It is some sort of gamma self-denigration ritual that I'm not aware of? I mean, we all know he's not very bright but does he think that by throwing it our faces we'll stop thinking he's stupid?

Blogger Hamilton May 08, 2013 8:24 AM  

My wife has a POS brother who used to beat her up starting when he was about 5 years old. She was almost 9. The beatings didn't stop until she moved out. She tries to tell he friends when they mouth off about beating up some dude that they do not want to go down that route with a man. They rarely listen.

One friend (a real feminist) put herself in between a man and her husband. There was a road rage incident and she and her husband were followed to a beach when the road rager jumped out of the car and tried to start a fight. The husband refused to fight because he would have destroyed the guy and just wanted to enjoy his vacation. He stayed in the car and waited for the rager to go away. He said his wife was yelling at him to fight the guy but husband just ignored her. Finally she jumped out of the car, right when the rager was leaving and ran after him screaming how she would beat his ass since her husband wouldn't. Rager dropped her ass with a swift open back hand to the cheek. She was absolutely shocked. At that point husband got out of the car, beat the guy up a bit, not too bad, and they left.

Husband still laughs about the incident and says it was the best thing that ever happened for the marriage. Much better than premarital church counseling. Chick just needed an ass whooping.

Anonymous MarkP May 08, 2013 8:25 AM  

The only time I ever hit a woman was a lesson for both of us. I certainly didn't think she'd go down as hard as she did, and neither did she. And it wasn't even a face shot, rather a full jab to the solar plexus. I can't imagine what might have happened if I followed up with a sequence blow to her head.

Anonymous Stingray May 08, 2013 8:25 AM  

It was good for them, though.

We were only ever allowed to spar the highest level men when I was learning as well. That and women at our own level (which I did not like). I knew what the men could do to me and at first I felt like a tiny bug, but I also knew that they would never, ever give me more than I could handle and I trusted them. I sparred with the men ever single chance I got and I learned a lot from it. Me being dog meat even fighting the boys was one of very good lessons.

Anonymous bob k. mando May 08, 2013 8:36 AM  

the most hilarious thing to me is that Phony thinks that the Muslims are 'reliable narrators'.

i wonder when he's going to start kneeling to Mecca and blessing the name of Mohammed?

Blogger Joshua_D May 08, 2013 8:37 AM  

bob k. mando May 08, 2013 8:36 AM

the most hilarious thing to me is that Phony thinks that the Muslims are 'reliable narrators'.

i wonder when he's going to start kneeling to Mecca and blessing the name of Mohammed?


Right? I was reading that passage thinking it sounded like a recounting of the glorious and heroic acta of Dear Leader!

Blogger Joshua_D May 08, 2013 8:38 AM  

* acts

Anonymous Peter Garstig May 08, 2013 8:40 AM  

At that point husband got out of the car, beat the guy up a bit, not too bad, and they left.

Why would he do that?

Anonymous Jonathan May 08, 2013 8:42 AM  

Right? I was reading that passage thinking it sounded like a recounting of the glorious and heroic acta of Dear Leader!

Except that Dear Leader isn't ronrey, as he has eight year-old girls keeping him warm at night.

Anonymous Keeg May 08, 2013 8:48 AM  

1) I once got into what you might call a "fight" with a woman friend who was high on PCP (which I didn't know at the time) and was trying to knife her little sister. This tussle went on for about a half hour because I was trying not to injure her; she kept coming at me while I tried to calm her down (while staying between her and the kitchen knives); and she didn't seem to feel any pain (I found out why later). Bu the whole time, I knew as long as she didn't have a weapon, she was no threat to me.

2) As a long-time Warhammer 40K player, I know that the easiest way to incite nerd-rage is to go on a 40K forum and ask, "Can there be female Space Marines?" Drives most 40K players batshit crazy, with folks making all kinds of physiological arguments against, like many of the comments here.

3) Were there real-life warrior women? If there were, they were probably few and far between, and probably only in impromptu, extreme circumstances, like the story of Nusaybah. In fantasy and sci-fi, I don't mind at all. If I can suspend disbelief for dragons and warp drives, I can suspend disbelief for warrior women and female Space Marines. In RPGs, I care even less: the point is for everyone to have a good time, and if a female player wants her female fighter to have 18/00 Strength, so be it.

Anonymous Keeg May 08, 2013 8:50 AM  

"BUT the whole time, I knew as long as she didn't have a weapon, she was no threat to me."

Anonymous VD May 08, 2013 8:51 AM  

He stayed in the car and waited for the rager to go away. He said his wife was yelling at him to fight the guy but husband just ignored her.

Most women are too emotional to think through the obvious consequences. They tend to calm down quickly in those sort of circumstances when the real world punctures their delusions, though. It would have been amusing to see the look on her face if he'd pulled out a gun, shot the guy twice in the head, and then turned back to her. Women tend to want their men to be violent, but not too violent.

"Happy now?"

Few men and even fewer women are able to imagine anything beyond the posturing. Men never seem to think they're going to get hit, and women never seem to think the men they are with will permit them to get hit. But hey, if you're the one mouthing off, then you're the one who can back it up.

Anonymous Stickwick May 08, 2013 9:14 AM  

I simply can't wrap my mind around the idea that women were somehow able to effectively fight with axe, sword, and shield....during the friggin' VIKING era. Unless Brunhilde truly was equal in mass, constitution, and dexterity as Olaf.

She wouldn't have to be Olaf's equal in mass, constitution, and dexterity, just equal to the men she was supposedly fighting. Keep in mind that the Vikings were reportedly much larger than the men of the regions they raided; it's possible the women were equal in stature to these other men. Still, that means nothing. I'm virtually the same height as my husband, and on the few occasions I've asked him to try to take me down (without hurting me), he did so easily. What really brought it home was when we were at one of those big arcades where there was a machine that measured how macho your punch is. His was impressive; mine was probably considered weak for a 12 year-old boy, and that despite the fact that I'm an accomplished weightlifter.

The women on the Vikings show weren't particularly impressive. Maybe it was oversight on the editor's part, but there was a scene that highlighted this rather well. Ragnar's men were ambushed by King Aelle's men, and everyone's fighting away, and off to one side you could see one of Ragnar's women engaging one of the King's men -- the male actor had to stand still for what seemed like eternity while the actress swung her sword around to take him down. Usually this sort of reality is hidden with quick cuts and other editing tricks.

Also, if you check out Lagertha (Ragnar's wife) on Wikipedia, despite some impressive-sounding tales, the legends surrounding her are almost certainly fictional.

He said his wife was yelling at him to fight the guy but husband just ignored her.

What a supreme cow. I will never understand why any wife eggs her husband on to fight someone. The potential for injury, now matter how well trained or strong the husband is, is too high; also, lawsuits. I would do everything in my power to persuade my husband not to fight, unless our lives were in danger. And I've told him that refusing to fight unless it's absolutely necessary will not cause me to lose respect for him in any way. It's just not worth it.

Anonymous bob k. mando May 08, 2013 9:18 AM  

posting this clip is mandatory in discussions of this nature, is it not?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQLXYu6plhg

Anonymous AmyJ May 08, 2013 9:27 AM  

I might have posted this before, but these discussions always remind me of the time that the little brother I had tormented for years punched me square in the face after finally getting fed up with my crap. Not only did it put me in my place and force me to reconsider what I'd always thought (guys aren't allowed to hit girls), but it strengthened our relationship - he's someone I respect, and not just because he can punch me in the face. It would do most women good to be punched at least once in their life. Shakes something loose in the brain, I think.

Anonymous bob k. mando May 08, 2013 9:29 AM  

Stickwick May 08, 2013 9:14 AM
Also, if you check out Lagertha (Ragnar's wife) on Wikipedia, despite some impressive-sounding tales, the legends surrounding her are almost certainly fictional.




hanh? impressive sounding tales?

it says she had a delicate frame and makes it appear as though most of what she accomplished ( like killing her husband ) was accomplished through stealth.

the only part of the wiki article which 'asserts' great physical deeds on her part is oddly ... vague ... about what those physical deeds are supposed to have been.

then you have the whole issue of her entire story possibly being fictional ...
Saxo's sources

According to Judith Jesch, the rich variety of tales in the first nine books of Saxo's Gesta, which include the tale of Lagertha, are "generally considered to be largely fictional"

Anonymous Other Josh May 08, 2013 9:37 AM  

That story of the female muslims warrior cracked me up. Methinks the story has grown a bit.

Blogger The Deuce May 08, 2013 9:48 AM  

VD:

The cumulative difference in speed, strength, and mass simply has to be experienced to be believed.

I can concur. I had the experience in highschool wrestling. First with the girls on my own team, and then once in tournament. Only time I ever had a match culminate in a pin in less than five seconds.

Anonymous VryeDenker May 08, 2013 9:50 AM  

Muslim women are only dangerous behind the wheel of a BMW.

Anonymous Godfrey May 08, 2013 9:50 AM  

This is why we need conceal carry and why I'd recommend everyone have a gun.

With the proper gun a 5'2", 100 pound female can slow down and possibly kill a 6'4", 200 pound male.

I'm surprised all these female writers of female warrior fiction don't belong to the NRA. If you fantasize about female empowerment, then let them be armed.

Anonymous JartStar May 08, 2013 9:55 AM  

I'm surprised all these female writers of female warrior fiction don't belong to the NRA. If you fantasize about female empowerment, then let them be armed.

This has always struck me as a bizarre disconnect as guns really are an equalizer between men and women.

Anonymous The other skeptic May 08, 2013 10:01 AM  

With the proper gun a 5'2", 100 pound female can slow down and possibly kill a 6'4", 200 pound male.

I was at an all-day handgun class recently. There wereabout four females on the class and about 19 males.

Two of the females were older and pretty inept, at least with semi-autos. They had problems operating the slide and remembering to keep their fingers off the trigger except when ready to shoot. I think they were more likely to shoot themselves.

One was younger and one was only about 17. The younger ones were better. I suspect that starting around 17 is the better time to teach females how to use guns, and revolvers are probably better for them.

Anonymous Keeg May 08, 2013 10:02 AM  

My teenage daughters and I were watching a movie where a woman martial artist punches and kicks big bad guys and they go flying through the air. To inject a dose of reality, I had to point out to my daughters that a woman highly trained in martial arts might be able to drop a guy bigger and heavier than she is, but she certainly isn't going to be able to send him flying several feet from a strike.

Anonymous VryeDenker May 08, 2013 10:04 AM  

"she certainly isn't going to be able to send him flying several feet from a strike. "

It is science.

Anonymous JCB May 08, 2013 10:04 AM  

"Would you like something to read?"

"Do you have anything light?"

"How about this leaflet, famous womyn warrior legends."

Anonymous Keeg May 08, 2013 10:04 AM  

"... and revolvers are probably better for them."

Why so, other skeptic? You've reminded me that I need to teach my older one (who's 19) to shoot.

Anonymous Curlytop May 08, 2013 10:08 AM  

Where was the Ilk when I had to endure countless eye rolls and accusations that I somehow hated myself bc I pointed out these exact things? Of course, I grew up w a combat vet for a father who was bluntly honest w us girls. Thus, he taught us how to shoot bc of it. I like something that barks here and bites over there ;-)

I've never been hit by a man, and I understand the speed, strength and mass difference. My husband hasn't been to the dojo in years. However just horsing around, his speed, strength, and accuracy is intimidating. I shudder to think about how it would go down when he is intent to inflict damage.

Anonymous Daniel May 08, 2013 10:11 AM  

I'm surprised all these female writers of female warrior fiction don't belong to the NRA. If you fantasize about female empowerment, then let them be armed.

If they did, they'd quickly realize that "woman as kickass modern combat soldier" is just as much a fantasy as a chainmail bikini.

Guns provide equality between an armed woman and unarmed man. They only give the gal better odds if they are both armed.

Fantasy combat is a lot of fun to write, but it is challenging enough trying to figure out if a giant's physiology would support a sprint of 100 yards or if an orc's liver would be oversized and needful of protection to throw petticoats into the mix.

A good female "warrior" to take a look at is the tiny and nimble Kyth from Jonathan L. Howard short stories (he's more famous for his Johannes Cabal novels). She's young, stealthy, a decent gymnast, and a thief. Her combat generally consists of fleeing and trapping. She's a very brave gal, with a high tolerance for the dark and supernatural, but I can't recall her ever being stupid enough to go to war with a man.

Anonymous Mr. B.A.D. May 08, 2013 10:14 AM  

back in my partying days I was hit by a few women and it was always the same; it took me a few seconds to realize that I had even been hit. now, I am a Big Ass Dude, so I cant say how some of you feather weights might have felt, but Ive received more jarring blows from a baby swinging its arm around.

Ive never hit a woman, but I have laid hands on some who got too big for their britches. And it is always the same; no matter how snarling, vicious, or violent their displays of throwing stuff, they turn into rag dolls the moment you yolk them up.

Anonymous Godfrey May 08, 2013 10:14 AM  

@JartStar May 08, 2013 9:55 AM
"This has always struck me as a bizarre disconnect as guns really are an equalizer between men and women."


I think it must be about the fantasy in their heads instead of the reality around them. It's also about their own insecurity. In reality a woman looks for a protector. Since the government's war on the family in general and women in particular, that protector is now the government.

Any rational woman - and there are some if not many - would support conceal carry and private gun ownership.

I'm a great egalitarian when it comes to guns, everyone should have one.

Anonymous bbtp May 08, 2013 10:18 AM  

"One liver shot later, she had a new understanding as to why there are weight-classes."

The bigger they are, the harder they hit.

-bbtp

Anonymous scoobius dubious May 08, 2013 10:19 AM  

The first time I had to rescue a guy from a burning car wreck, I didn't have a pair of gloves with me, which I regretted because it was sort of a messy business. In the time since then, I've had to pull people out of two more car wrecks (just happened to be the first one on the scene) but by then I had got wise and started carrying a pair of black leather Harley-Davidson motorcycle gloves in my pockets, in case of emergency. (FYI I'm not a biker.) They work well because they're tough but sort of thin, so they store easily, and I have very large hands, so the less space the better. Actually now that I think of it, I should go buy a new pair, it's been a while, I hope they still have the same make in stock.

They also make for very good psy-ops weapons. As I've noted here before, I'm not much of a fighter, if I don't win on the first shot or two I'm done for, any serious challenger could put me down in like 30 seconds, but I know how to make myself look scary, so I never have to fight in the first place. One of the funny things I've noticed is, when people have the rare infrequent desire to start shit with me, I calmly start to take out the gloves and put them on, all the while stating in a flat, affectless tone of voice that I really don't want any trouble. Everybody runs away before I've finished putting the second glove on. It's pretty funny. But of course, if any of them ever stuck around and wanted to actually fight, I'd probably get my ass kicked. Theater is useful if you do it correctly and with conviction, otherwise, looooook out.

Modern times, rock n roll.


Anonymous JartStar May 08, 2013 10:19 AM  

Many women, particularly in stressful situations, will struggle operating a slide in part due to hand strength. A friend of mine has a very petite wife and she literally cannot operate the slide on his .40 with all of her strength.

.38 special +p load in a revolver is a good choice.

Anonymous scoobius dubious May 08, 2013 10:23 AM  

"Muslim women are only dangerous behind the wheel of a BMW."

No, Muslim women are most dangerous in the maternity wards of a white, Western, Christian nation. There, they are very dangerous indeed.

Anonymous bbtp May 08, 2013 10:28 AM  

I taught my wife to lift weights a few years back. She has a family history of osteoporosis, so it's not optional -- it's something she has to do.

It was AMAZING seeing the strength difference btw an untrained man and an untrained woman. I'd started lifting a few years before, and I squatted my bodyweight on my second day (I spent the first day just practicing technique with an unloaded bar). It took me a few months to work up to benching my bodyweight. My wife, on the other hand, couldn't even bench the bar, and she struggled to front-squat the bar for reps.

If you go to lifting gyms, you notice (1) they're 1% female, tops and (2) female lifting milestones are just different -- for a woman over 30, deadlifting 2 plates is a significant achievement and a bodyweight bench may never happen. There's nothing like seeing a 275 lb powerlifter doing 40-inch box jumps or a 165 lb skinny-ass dude hang cleaning 300 to make you fully conscious of sex distinctions.

-bbtp

Anonymous rabbitman May 08, 2013 10:33 AM  

You people are dipshits. I once saw John Scalzi's wife beat 5 men senseless with one hand, while holding a tripple dip icecream cone and smoked turkey leg in the other.

Anonymous Daniel May 08, 2013 10:37 AM  

The first time I had to rescue a guy from a burning car wreck, I didn't have a pair of gloves with me, which I regretted because it was sort of a messy business. In the time since then, I've had to pull people out of two more car wrecks (just happened to be the first one on the scene) but by then I had got wise and started carrying a pair of black leather Harley-Davidson motorcycle gloves in my pockets, in case of emergency. (FYI I'm not a biker.) They work well because they're tough but sort of thin, so they store easily, and I have very large hands, so the less space the better. Actually now that I think of it, I should go buy a new pair, it's been a while, I hope they still have the same make in stock.

If you remember which style they are, let me know. I very much wish I had them for an auto fire I came across many years ago.

Anonymous FrankNorman May 08, 2013 11:11 AM  

VryeDenker May 08, 2013 9:50 AM

Muslim women are only dangerous behind the wheel of a BMW.


Do you live in Cape Town?

Anonymous ? May 08, 2013 11:23 AM  

Muslim women are most dangerous in the maternity wards of a white, Western, Christian nation. There, they are very dangerous indeed.

Do you know of such a nation? I'd like to move to one. I thought they'd all been abolished.

Anonymous Austin May 08, 2013 11:32 AM  

I think that Vox is right on this thread. However, the bell curve can produce fascinating people at the tail. In a "A Short History of Byzantium" the story is told of a Norman princess who fought along side her husband. I think she was described as a real life Brunhilda, flowing blond braids and all. Her name was Sikelgaita. Fought in full armor and was compared to Pallas.

Clearly an outlier, but a fascinating story that has stuck with me for nearly ten years.

Anonymous Redjack May 08, 2013 11:33 AM  

The other skeptic

My bride can barely work the slide on her Berretta. She can not on my 1911.

I have suggested a revolver, but she wants something bigger than a .38, and can't control a .44.

Anonymous Sigyn May 08, 2013 11:39 AM  

One of the funny things I've noticed is, when people have the rare infrequent desire to start shit with me, I calmly start to take out the gloves and put them on, all the while stating in a flat, affectless tone of voice that I really don't want any trouble.

Do you also chomp on a cigar and mention that you love it when a plan comes together?

Blogger IM2L844 May 08, 2013 12:04 PM  

Phoenician,

You're making two glaring logical errors that are typical of progressives.

You are conflating courage with natural physical abilities then extrapolating from the part to the whole. In this case, the product is fantasy fiction (women are as good as men at EVERYTHING).

Anonymous E. PERLINE May 08, 2013 12:05 PM  

A professional boxer, if he wants to be a champion in whatever weight class, must have two advantages- the ability to throw punches with maximum effect, and the ablty to take punches without losing momentary consciousness.

A 180 pound man can outdrink a 130 pound woman, and it stands to reason he can outpunch her, even if he doesn't know the correct way to punch.

Anonymous King Turnip May 08, 2013 12:06 PM  

Another noted Woman Warrior: Veborg the Shieldmaiden. In the Sagas, she was a chosen champion of Sigurd, and managed to kill one accomplished warrior and wound another... Before crumpling and being butchered.

Step one to becoming an accomplished warrior: Don't die. Failed.

Anonymous Curlytop May 08, 2013 12:18 PM  

"A 180 pound man can outdrink a 130 pound woman, and it stands to reason he can outpunch her, even if he doesn't know the correct way to punch. "

There you go again with logic, Perline. There's a significant group of delusional women who will argue with you over that. The 21 shot game done on one's 21st Birthday usually reveals this truism fairly quickly.

Anonymous scoobius dubious May 08, 2013 12:27 PM  

"Do you also chomp on a cigar and mention that you love it when a plan comes together?"

About four or five times a year I chomp on a cigar (a mild Butera for preference, if I can get one, but a well-made torpedo by other makers will suit me in a pinch). But I never mention that I love it when a plan comes together. It sort of kills the fun of it. I prefer to cackle inwardly with diabolic glee. And I've executed some rather extraordinary evil plans in my day.

I do own a trap-door and a piranha tank beneath, but I don't stroke a cat in my lap when I activate the device. That would just be a bit too much.





Blogger Jack Black May 08, 2013 12:30 PM  

This women warrior crap is quite dangerous for women. A few years ago a women chimped out and attacked a guy for taking a parking spot she wanted. After hitting him several times he punched her back once. She died from a single blow to the head. The man was convicted for man slaughter despite not starting the fight.

Anonymous Jill May 08, 2013 12:32 PM  

I don't have a problem with a female character who must reluctantly rise to the occasion and become a warrior temporarily, or who must die in order to save her family. But I have a big problem with throwing out the archetypes that have resonated with human beings for 1000s of years. The hero myth is masculine for a reason. A story hero who ventures into battle and puts his life on the line to defeat the enemy is a Christ figure. I don't claim that females aren't capable of sacrifice (see first statement), but Christ was a man. Most of the epic heroes throughout history were men. Hercules was a man. There are some exceptions to this pattern of the the masculine defeating the enemy in order to rescue the feminine, yet they're still that--exceptions. If the masculine warrior becomes lost to us--an archetype that no longer resonates with our souls--we'll become a strange, sad culture.

Anonymous Noah B. May 08, 2013 12:33 PM  

Clearly you've never seen GI Jane.

Anonymous RC May 08, 2013 12:36 PM  

I did not lose a son; I sent him on ahead." - Beau

I have passed this on to a man who desperately needs to hear your word.

Blogger Laramie Hirsch May 08, 2013 12:40 PM  

In regards to the challenge to Vox by whoever, it disgusts me how liberals try to stab their opposition with juvenile insults.

Anonymous scoobius dubious May 08, 2013 12:41 PM  

God bless Beau, he's always a font of wisdom in remarkably few words.

Anonymous Oh well May 08, 2013 12:56 PM  

In a "A Short History of Byzantium" the story is told of a Norman princess who fought along side her husband. I think she was described as a real life Brunhilda, flowing blond braids and all. Her name was Sikelgaita. Fought in full armor and was compared to Pallas.

Valerie Eads, "Sichelgaita of Salerno: Amazon or Trophy Wife?" comes down on the side of the latter. Eads concludes Sichelgaita's role was to harangue and rally the troops, not actually to fight, because there is no evidence she had any training or practice in the use of weapons. Eads asks rhetorically, "Would even a prince of Salerno squander a valuable resource, skilled weapons masters, to train a daughter in weapons?" -- and quotes another source who said Sichelgaita had "command skills and warrior spirit rather than physical prowess."

You can find the article online via google books.

Anonymous . May 08, 2013 12:58 PM  

A few years ago a women chimped out and attacked a guy for taking a parking spot she wanted. After hitting him several times he punched her back once. She died from a single blow to the head. The man was convicted for man slaughter despite not starting the fight.

There are ample stories of strong, capable men being killed when a single punch knocks them down and they hit their head. This is why sensible men avoid fistfights.

Anonymous scoobius dubious May 08, 2013 12:58 PM  

This seems OT but it really isn't, it's just sort of oblique. I'm not a student of Game, but I am a careful student of body language, and how a human being presents itself theatrically, so to speak, and what the effects to others are.

Watch these two videos, I'm curious especially what the Game theorists think:

The British singer-songwriter Leo Sayer back in the 1970s was a short, odd-looking man with a great singing voice who wrote some pretty good songs, and once or twice, great ones. He didn't have enough star-power to become major, but he had enough raw talent to have a good career.

Interestingly, he began his career in a sort of Bowie-esque fashion by performing in clown makeup and a Pierrot costume. This seemed like an odd choice, but it had the advantages in that it visually erased his short stature by forcing your eye to focus on something else entirely, and the stylization gave him permission to make very limited, eccentric movements and expressions which accentuated his performance strengths, while the rules of his persona prevented him from making other movements which would not be as helpful. No matter whether you like the material or not, you have to admit that there's something oddly compelling about his delivery.

Look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6gEkfwozhE

Now look at him a bit later in his career, when he's abandoned this restricted persona, and trying more to "be himself", in a duet with Linda Ronstadt. He still has a great singing voice, and they're singing a Rolling Stones song which is more brilliant than anything Sayer would ever write himself, but look at how liberty gives him the freedom to make a complete visual jackass of himself, even though his vocal performance is wonderful:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjOf1nzTQFk

Even though he turns in a good performance, he looks like a fool, but ironically without the clown costume.

Curious to hear what the Gamesters make of this.





Anonymous Darth Toolpodicus May 08, 2013 1:00 PM  

...to all you haterade drinkers that deny the existence of true warrior women because you are secretly afraid of grrl-empowerment:

Brienne of Detroit

Anonymous Oso May 08, 2013 1:01 PM  

For those who have difficulty working the slide on Semi-Auto pistols - have you seen the technique in this video?

http://www.gunblast.com/Handling-SemiAutos.htm

Anonymous VryeDenker May 08, 2013 1:01 PM  

@Frank Norman "Do you live in Cape Town?"

Yep. Behind the Boerewors Curtain somewhere.

Blogger Jack Black May 08, 2013 1:12 PM  

"There are ample stories of strong, capable men being killed when a single punch knocks them down and they hit their head. This is why sensible men avoid fistfights."

Most of those cases are sucker punches when men were not expecting to be hit. And yes most men are smart enough not to attack someone much heavier, stronger, and faster than them. We understand the risks.

The whole women can fight bit has chicks convinced that they can go toe to toe with men much larger than themselves. And a lot of men never having hit a women don't know to pull their punches due to the same propaganda. I've learned through experience that you need to slap, not punch a women who is attacking you and never at full force.

Anonymous Sigyn May 08, 2013 1:17 PM  

Scoob. Seriously. You didn't get it.

This was what I meant.

Blogger Original George (There can be only one!) May 08, 2013 1:18 PM  

"This is why we need conceal carry and why I'd recommend everyone have a gun.

With the proper gun a 5'2", 100 pound female can slow down and possibly kill a 6'4", 200 pound male.

I'm surprised all these female writers of female warrior fiction don't belong to the NRA. If you fantasize about female empowerment, then let them be armed." - Godfrey

I shoot IDPA on occasion and hands down the fastest most accurate person I have seen to date was this little 5'0" Filipina with a pair of custom 45's. Any two individuals that step to her would be dead before they even drew their weapons. Her pistol work convinced me of two things. First the notion I had of a 45 not being as fast or as well handled as a 9mm was shattered. Second, women are capable of shooting as well as any man and I think anyone that has seen a skull opened with a 45 can attest to the fact that it will definitely slow you down if you are hit. BTW I use an M&P 9mm but my next weapon will be a 45.

Anonymous . May 08, 2013 1:27 PM  

"Most of those cases are sucker punches when men were not expecting to be hit."

Not always. These two guys squared off -- and I sure wouldn't have picked the muscular black dude as the loser.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2309895/Partygoer-Anthony-Thompson-26-killed-single-punch-head-penis-drawn-face.html

In any event, a single punch kill in a "fair fight" is possible enough that one should avoid fair fights.

Blogger Original George (There can be only one!) May 08, 2013 1:51 PM  

"In any event, a single punch kill in a "fair fight" is possible enough that one should avoid fair fights."

Exactly who wants to go to prison for killing some asshole.

Anonymous allyn71 May 08, 2013 1:53 PM  

OT but related to thread discussion.

To the guys that were looking for a pair of gloves for vechicle extraction. If you don't find the leather pair you like consider getting a set of NOMEX aviator gloves. NOMEX is a fire retardant chemical that will keep you from getting burned if exposure is kept to a min. level (you can't stick and leave your hand in fire but it will protect from radiant heat). They allow much more dexterity in hand movements and sensitivity to touch versus leather gloves. They can usually be found and army navy surplus stores. Something to keep in mind.

Now back to the discussion that men are stronger than women and water is wet.

Anonymous GreyS May 08, 2013 2:13 PM  

I personally know a few women who have beaten men in a fight. How? They had enough mass, speed, strength and grew up fighting.

That doesn't mean that women warriors existed in anything other than singularly unique circumstances, if at all. Where were they? Where are they? They don't exist now-- while potentially having every bit of training and weaponry at their disposal. Common sense will tell you that female warriors would get wiped out and thus effectively ending any society dumb enough to send them to fight.

But it's not only women and wimpy fantasy writers who operate under fantasies. White American males see that 'Way Of The Gun' video posted above and congratulate themselves for not being women-- when in reality the majority of them are almost exactly like that mouthy woman: They know how to talk, mouth off, insult and cuss in all sorts of ways-- but want no part of actual fighting.

Anonymous Thales May 08, 2013 2:24 PM  

...these discussions always remind me of the time that the little brother I had tormented for years punched me square in the face after finally getting fed up with my crap. Not only did it put me in my place and force me to reconsider what I'd always thought (guys aren't allowed to hit girls), but it strengthened our relationship - he's someone I respect, and not just because he can punch me in the face. It would do most women good to be punched at least once in their life.

You didn't respect him initially because you correctly pegged him as someone who will take crap. But children are a work-in progress, and at some point he refused to take your crap, and thus he earned your respect.

Anonymous Noah B. May 08, 2013 2:27 PM  

Many women, particularly in stressful situations, will struggle operating a slide in part due to hand strength. A friend of mine has a very petite wife and she literally cannot operate the slide on his .40 with all of her strength.

I've seen that many times. My mother cannot cycle the slide on any Glock. My wife can operate the slide on a full size Glock but not on the subcompact models. Neither of them are petite. I hadn't even thought about the difference in the spring force between the different Glock models prior to seeing my wife have difficulty with the subcompact.

.38 special +p load in a revolver is a good choice.

For the vast majority of women, there's nothing better. If a woman is relatively strong and genuinely interested in picking up some skill, moving on to an automatic is reasonable later on. There's a lot to potentially go wrong with an automatic that needs to be considered. The mag can come loose, there is often a safety to deal with, lighter weight automatics require a firmer grip to cycle reliably, there are more problems of incompatibility between gun and ammunition, and of course, more cycling problems/failures to feed properly.

When selecting a pistol for a woman, the main question in my mind is whether or not the revolver should be of the hammerless, double-action-only variety. What I've settled on is that if it's going to be carried in a purse, hammerless is usually better. If it's typically kept in a house or vehicle, there's less risk of having an exposed hammer and more potential to fire an accurate first shot.

For those who have difficulty working the slide on Semi-Auto pistols - have you seen the technique in this video?

That's exactly the technique I use and teach. Many women still find it difficult or impossible to operate semi-auto slides.

Blogger Markku May 08, 2013 2:30 PM  

"I'm confused, why does Phony always sign off as "dipshit?""

I think he is trying to compliment Vox, how he always writes deep shit. He doesn't get it quite right, but hey, what can you expect from a Phoenician?

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian, King of Aquilonia May 08, 2013 2:32 PM  

SLIDE MANIPULATION VARIANCE:

For easier manip. for some people,

Turn the pistol 90 degrees (sideways, or if you will, gangsta style)
Grab the slide with your non dominant hand (include using your thumb) and then pull with non dom and push with dom hand.

Works for those that have a hard time, plus, when done right can see malfs if doing a tap rack bang.

Always remember to return to proper stance (not gansta style) for the bang.

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian, King of Aquilonia May 08, 2013 2:34 PM  

Mrs. Cimmerian has no trouble racking her Walther PK380.

Anonymous scoobius dubious May 08, 2013 2:34 PM  

allyn71 -- thanks for the NOMEX recommendation, sounds worthwhile. Personally I hope I never encounter that sort of situation again, of course, but we never know what will happen, and if so, my primary worries were/are blood and sharp broken objects ahead of fire. Do the NOMEX gloves have sufficient thickness for reasonable protection against all that crap? Is there a tradeoff, or are the NOMEX gloves just straight-up superior?



Anonymous Clay May 08, 2013 2:58 PM  

Geez. Where do you guys live...Talladega?

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian, King of Aquilonia May 08, 2013 3:07 PM  

Weak hand slide rack

This is a little different than the sideways slide rack, but it gives a general idea.

Anonymous Noah B. May 08, 2013 3:15 PM  

I was incredulous too the first time I saw a woman unable to cycle a semiautomatic, but there are a lot of them out there. And some semiautos are much easier to cycle than others. But I do still find myself wondering if it's really a lack of strength or just hesitation.

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian, King of Aquilonia May 08, 2013 3:22 PM  

And to help explain, when you sideways rack, the gun is still pointing down range.

Trying to fins a video of proper sideways, I have found some "no-nos" of people racking while pointing the gun to the side. No. must point down range.

The, while pointing down range with pistol turned 90 degrees, you can overhand(overhead) rack.

Here is another explanation:

http://www.southlakechl.com/2012/10/30/ladies-can-rack-the-slide-on-a-semi-auto-during-chl-range-qualification/

Get a firm grip on the pistol with your strong hand. You may find it helpful to turn your wrist inward at a slight angle instead of holding the gun perfectly vertical. Hold the pistol close to your body rather than at a full extended arm’s length. You will get improved leverage holding the pistol lower and closer to your torso than you will if you hold the pistol up at eye level or extended out at arm’s length. You may want to experiment a bit, but try a few positions with your hand between chest level and belly level to see what is comfortable for you.

Next, use your support hand to grasp over the top of the slide. Grab towards the back of the slide but get as much contact between your support hand and the slide to get a firm grasp. Don’t use just your thumb and index finger to “pinch” the slide. Most guns have rearward cocking serrations in the right place to help you get a firm grip in the right spot.

Instead of using your weak/support side hand to pull the slide back, use your strong hand to push the frame forward. Your weak/support hand is responsible for holding the slide in place while you quickly and forcefully push the lower frame of the pistol forward. Holding your support hand against your chest or belly can make this task easier. Resist the temptation to slowly or gently ease the slide forward or backward. A hunk of metal designed to contain high pressure combustion is not going to be harmed by rough handling in your hands.

Anonymous GreyS May 08, 2013 3:27 PM  

Perhaps someone can unpack this whole male fixation on female warrior/fighter thing for me.

We've long seen the young male gamer fixation on female characters who have pneumatic T & A and superior fighting skills. I never understood it back when Lara Croft was so popular-- figuring it as kind of "okay, you get to watch a computerized sexy girl who happens to do things you want to do" but for so many it was much more than that-- and the sexy superior fighter thing has grown hugely since then.

Now we see fantasy fiction males striving to convince themselves that superior sexy women warriors existed and could exist now.

These gamers and fiction fans have this weird combo. It's like they want to be dominated by these women while simultaneously treating them as sex objects. I understand some of this gamma male stuff but this seems to go weirdly deeper than that. I don't really know how to put this subject into words, but hopefully VD and others can shed some more light on this.

Anonymous Stickwick May 08, 2013 3:29 PM  

But I do still find myself wondering if it's really a lack of strength or just hesitation.

Mostly the former. I'm strong for a woman -- I've deadlifted 316 lbs -- but my hands are very weak compared with the average man's. I can rack the slide on my .45, but I have to get my husband to help me lock it, because I can't hold the slide back long enough to engage the lock. He thinks I'm not really trying, but the truth is I just don't have the hand strength.

Blogger Billy Oblivion May 08, 2013 3:41 PM  

"That's exactly the technique I use and teach. Many women still find it difficult or impossible to operate semi-auto slides."

My wife can run the slide on both my glocks (26, 19) my Beretta and her CZ75 with minimal effort using a slight modification of that technique--which is that instead of taking the firearm offline you keep it pointing down range and rotate from the offhand shoulder to reach over the top.

My wife is not a big woman (5'4 but peasant stock), and at the time was doing no real weight lifting. In discussing this with her she believes--from the classes she's taken that if a healthy woman can't rack the slide on most pistols (excluding some of the blowback operated .380s which can be relatively tougher) there is something else going on.

Revolvers generally are not a good answer to this--the felt recoil is greater, and the trigger pull length and weight make them more difficult to shoot.

One thing I've seen over and over is that guys try to teach their wives or girlfriends how to shoot, and not only are the women *just* *not* in to it, but the guys shouldn't be allowed to teach how to take piss. Oh, and women, almost uniformly WILL NOT listen to their spouse.

Note the lack of qualification on that last sentence.

My wife is not particularly adept at physical things. She could drive a stick to save a life, but it would be a painful ride and you might not get out of 2nd gear. She never played much sport as a kid, and has the attendent issues, but as soon as I realized she wouldn't let me teach her to shoot, I got her quality instruction from a guy who knew how to teach women and she does better than most men on the square range.

Not that that is a high bar.

On the OP, there are a *very* few number of women, mostly genetic freaks, who overlap the range of men on strength and quickness. Say 1 out of 1000 or so who can do what the bottom half of men can do. If these women train like men and try to fight like men they will be ok against "most" men--which is to say men who don't train, don't exercise for strength and fighting ability.

Of course most of these women who have trained like men have trained with men, and know that they can't beat guys who know how to fight, so they don't try.

It is probable that many of the historical figures of women warriors are mostly fiction. It is also probable that one or two were genetic freaks.

Neither is useful in informing public policy.

Anonymous Noah B. May 08, 2013 3:57 PM  

"Revolvers generally are not a good answer to this--the felt recoil is greater, and the trigger pull length and weight make them more difficult to shoot."

I couldn't disagree more, but if you've made sure your wife knows how to use a pistol, that's the main thing.

Blogger JDC May 08, 2013 4:52 PM  

The best way to introduce the fantasy fiction woman warrior is to do what David Weber did in his Safehold series. Personality Integrated Cybernetic Avatar.

Aside from that I don't see it, and cringe when I read authors falling over themselves to describe their woman warriors as the toughest, strongest, sluttiest (while simultaneously achieving a superior morality), smartest and most reasonable of the lot.

Anonymous Anonymous May 08, 2013 6:47 PM  

No, Muslim women are most dangerous in the maternity wards of a white, Western, Christian nation. There, they are very dangerous indeed.

Think this could be why they are beginning to pusch post-partum abortions to age 2?

Blogger mmaier2112 May 08, 2013 6:51 PM  


scoobius dubious May 08, 2013 10:23 AM

"Muslim women are only dangerous behind the wheel of a BMW."

No, Muslim women are most dangerous in the maternity wards of a white, Western, Christian nation. There, they are very dangerous indeed.


OK... HUH?

Anonymous pushit May 08, 2013 7:02 PM  

No, Muslim women are most dangerous in the maternity wards of a white, Western, Christian nation. There, they are very dangerous indeed.

Think this could be why liberals are beginning to push post-partum abortions to age 2?

Blogger Christina May 08, 2013 8:09 PM  

I simply can't wrap my mind around the idea that women were somehow able to effectively fight with axe, sword, and shield....during the friggin' VIKING era. Unless Brunhilde truly was equal in mass, constitution, and dexterity as Olaf. In which case I begin to realize why Olaf and crew were always boating away...far away....to raid and plunder. Egads!

See now, I always was of the opinion that female dwarves were based off female Vikings. Really, Hilda and Brunhilde don't sound like petite little fairies, now do they?

But I think that the northern echelons of Europe bred some formidable people due to the harsh environment. A woman would have to be made of some stern and nasty stuff to survive it. The celts and picts were known for sending their naked women into battle, as well - though I'm not certain they had swords. Their fighting style (attack and feint) wasn't really conducive to heavy armor and weaponry.

Blogger Christina May 08, 2013 8:21 PM  

Ah - it would seem I was wrong. There's not enough evidence to support the idea that women fought routinely in the ancient british isles (just evidence of a middle aged law forbidding women from fighting).

And there's some evidence of female warriors attacking the Byzantines, but most instances of female "warriors" were really women protecting their families from life-death situations.

However, female warriors in fantasy have existed since the days of mythology - Athena, Brynhilde - probably with the intent of outwardly displaying characteristics that women should inwardly possess. Meaning, even if they are not strong in physical body, they should be strong in spirit.

Blogger Phoenician May 08, 2013 9:33 PM  

So, this most exemplary of all women warriors managed to unhorse one rider and cripple one man in a tribal skirmish while trying to defend her family in a desperate situation. If we are to take Nusaybah as sufficient justification for the plethora of female Conans that presently litter bad fantasy,

Bzzzzzt - you done fucked up, Dipshit. Everyone can see you trying to move the goalposts.

Your comment was "The amusing thing is that throughout the comments, no one even stops to realize that the entire premise of women attempting to fight with swords is physically ridiculous."

The Muslims honor a woman who killed a horse and an armed male warrior while defending the Prophet. They don't regard the premise as "physically ridiculous" at all.

The fact that you have to run away from your own words and blather demonstrates exactly why everyone laughs at you.

Dipshit.

Anonymous women were not allowed to go to the gym May 08, 2013 10:13 PM  

"it's possible the women were equal in stature to these other men. Still, that means nothing."

it was amusing reading an article about that games of throne's tall woman, who is supposed to be strong because she is tall.

Throwing ability gap is apparently one of the biggest differences in sexes, and appears to be innate. After puberty, the sexes aren't even close to an overlap.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/rw/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2012/09/11/Health-Environment-Science/Graphics/w-Girlthrow.jpg

Even little doses of baby T steroids can dramatically affect women's strength and more importantly appearance, it's not inconceivable that many of the weight-loss transformations have nothing to do with a magical diet.

http://thinksteroids.com/forum/steroid-forum/women-testosterone-dosage-fat-134260719.html

Anonymous hsu May 08, 2013 11:14 PM  

Personally, I've always wondered why there weren't more historical female crossbowmen.

Crossbowmen were typically skirmishers with lighter armor. A year of weight lifting for a female should be enough to handle lighter armor.

And many crossbows were either lever or pulley designs, so even a female should be able to handle that. Yeah, she may be slower on the reload, but in a mass formation, it shouldn't be that noticeable.

Anonymous tiredofitall May 08, 2013 11:40 PM  

"I was at an all-day handgun class recently. There were about four females on the class and about 19 males.

Two of the females were older and pretty inept, at least with semi-autos. They had problems operating the slide and remembering to keep their fingers off the trigger except when ready to shoot. I think they were more likely to shoot themselves." - The other skeptic

The single greatest afternoon of watching young women nearly blow their own brains out happened when my uncle tried to teach his daughters (age 14 & 13) how to shoot. He'd set up a beginner's target in his private shooting range on the back of his property. And when I say "beginner", I mean like basic.

If they could reload or even rack a gun on their own he'd have been proud. The 14 year old could almost do it, but every time her hand would slip off at the last second and the slide would slam back and nearly slice her hand up.

After a while, my uncle decided to see how well they could shoot, and after an hour long lecture and demonstration on how to hold the gun, and general commonsense gun safety he let them try.

The 13 year old fired the gun ONE TIME, dropped it and cried. The 14 year old emptied half a clip downrange and managed to hit the target once. After which she spun around with the gun still in her hand and her finger on the trigger towards her father and us crowing about her "major" accomplishment.

My uncle snapped the gun out of her hand and proceeded to rip into her like Sgt. Hartman from Full Metal Jacket.

Anonymous bob k. mando May 09, 2013 12:17 AM  

hsu May 08, 2013 11:14 PM
And many crossbows were either lever or pulley designs, so even a female should be able to handle that. Yeah, she may be slower on the reload, but in a mass formation, it shouldn't be that noticeable.




it's not a question of simple ability or even a ~15% time penalty for the reload that is the primary problem.

it's the ability to SUSTAIN reload cycles that is the real problem. large armies might engage for hours at a time before one side sounds a retreat or darkness forces cessation of the festivities.

also, it's all well and good to say, "we'll just stick our less physically able troopers over here out of the way". the problem is, the enemy has a nasty habit of not paying attention to the boundaries with which you want to delimit the battlefield.

sneaking a flying wedge of cavalry into the rear or flank is one of the oldest tactics there is.




Phoenician May 08, 2013 9:33 PM
The Muslims honor a woman who killed a horse and an armed male warrior while defending the Prophet. They don't regard the premise as "physically ridiculous" at all.



ah, so in this case the word of a Muslim is to be taken at face value. how dare we question the integrity of the source?

i'm glad to hear that you unquestioningly accept that Muhammed split the moon in half and ascended to heaven directly from the temple mount without dying.

have you made your Hajj yet?



here's real world video, the Cleveland bus driver:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQQI-iXJufI

interestingly, this black woman actually seems to have learned something.

Anonymous Stickwick May 09, 2013 12:33 AM  

The fact that you have to run away from your own words and blather demonstrates exactly why everyone laughs at you.

Who's this mythical "everyone" laughing at Vox and watching him move goalposts?

Well, you know what? Everyone +1 is laughing at YOU. Take THAT!

Anonymous VD May 09, 2013 3:43 AM  

The Muslims honor a woman who killed a horse and an armed male warrior while defending the Prophet. They don't regard the premise as "physically ridiculous" at all.

True. But I'm not a Muslim. The Muslims also grant even more honor to a man who had sex with a nine year old girl. Since when do you consider the Muslim opinion of anything to be the conclusive one, Phony?

I haven't moved the goalposts in the slightest. I repeat: "the entire premise of women attempting to fight with swords is physically ridiculous."

You cited the example of a woman who got chopped up and was lucky to not die as your prime example of a warrior woman. That's what people are laughing at, Phony.

Anonymous bbtp May 09, 2013 10:16 AM  

Phoenician:

So your argument is that it's not ridiculous for the fantasy genre to routinely present female warriors because there is one woman in Islamic history who managed not to totally screw up in a combat situation?

Do you agree that women are much slower, weaker, more injury-prone and generally much worse at fighting than men?

-bbtp

Anonymous WaterBoy May 09, 2013 12:25 PM  

Definition:

grasping at straws also clutching at straws
1. trying to find some way to succeed when nothing you choose is likely to work Phoenician, grasping at straws, searched the historical record, looking for the missing warrior woman. Instead, all he found was a cultural legend.

C.f., desperate, panicky,phony shit, Phoeniciat

Anonymous bob k. mando May 09, 2013 1:32 PM  

see, the first thing you have to do with chicks on the modern battlefield is TEACH THEM NOT TO THROW LIKE A GIRL:
http://i.imgur.com/t3CF25z.gif


this gif is also an excellent example of how much faster the men are in life and death situations ( that is, when EVERYONE is moving at maximum speed ).

take note of how the left hand instructor has time to body slam the woman into the dugout AND get himself to safety even though he half fell down in the middle of his action. the woman didn't even have a chance to react to the failed throw.

Anonymous Meelhama May 09, 2013 5:25 PM  

The question should be stated thus:

Vox, was Nusaybah bint Ka'ab's sword fighting physically rediculous?

Anonymous Meelhama May 09, 2013 5:35 PM  

"The Muslims honor a woman who killed a horse and an armed male warrior while defending the Prophet. They don't regard the premise as "physically ridiculous" at all.

True. But I'm not a Muslim. The Muslims also grant even more honor to a man who had sex with a nine year old girl. Since when do you consider the Muslim opinion of anything to be the conclusive one, Phony?

I haven't moved the goalposts in the slightest. I repeat: "the entire premise of women attempting to fight with swords is physically ridiculous."

You cited the example of a woman who got chopped up and was lucky to not die as your prime example of a warrior woman. That's what people are laughing at, Phony."

Vox did move the goal posts and standing by 'all women weilding a sword are physically rediculous,' he does more violence to the value of eye witnesses in a historical text than to women.

Blogger Duke of Earl May 09, 2013 7:47 PM  

Back when I attended a self defence class I ended up sparring with the instructor's sister.

As far as I know she had had some training, but she was incredibly slow. I eventually asked for it to be two on one (one being me) because there was no challenge in it.

Now, hand on heart, I have no fighting ability whatsoever but that was just pathetic.

Anonymous Luke May 10, 2013 11:31 AM  

Wonder Woman, the most famous Amazon warrior woman, at age 38:

http://rdemotivational.com/wonder-woman

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Anonymous Anonymous June 10, 2013 7:43 PM  

You are a disgusting, brutal pervert. I know you are going to delete this, since I am writing anonymously - but I hardly have a choice, do I, since I do not possess any of the options given in the comment as section.
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Anonymous Anonymous August 31, 2014 11:54 PM  

"Has Phony ever hit a woman? Has he ever seen a woman's head snap back, seen her knees buckle, and stood over her as she lays crumpled on the floor? Has he ever bloodied a woman's nose or blackened a woman's eyes? Has he ever toyed with a woman desperately trying to lay a hand on him before stepping forward and flattening her with a single jab?

I have. It wasn't even amusing because it was so easy. I had a harder time fighting a well-trained eleven year old boy..."

Wow. What a brave keyboard warrior you are, you forty-six-year-old balding midget cockgremlin. What a good Christian crusader you are too, doing the lord's work by thrashing women and children. You're a lying piece of shit, and if in the 0.000000001% chance that you did beat up a woman or an 11-year-old child, you're a cowardly piece of shit too. Kindly fuck off and die.

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