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Wednesday, June 12, 2013

Better there than the US "justice" system

Edward Snowdon makes it clear that he doesn't trust the U.S. courts.  Nor should he.  Nor, for that matter, should you:
Edward Snowden says he wants to ask the people of Hong Kong to decide his fate after choosing the city because of his faith in its rule of law. The 29-year-old former CIA employee behind what might be the biggest intelligence leak in US history revealed his identity to the world in Hong Kong on Sunday. His decision to use a city under Chinese sovereignty as his haven has been widely questioned – including by some rights activists in Hong Kong.

Snowden said last night that he had no doubts about his choice of Hong Kong.

“People who think I made a mistake in picking Hong Kong as a location misunderstand my intentions. I am not here to hide from justice; I am here to reveal criminality,” Snowden said in an exclusive interview with the South China Morning Post.

“I have had many opportunities to flee HK, but I would rather stay and fight the United States government in the courts, because I have faith in Hong Kong’s rule of law,” he added.
His decision makes a tremendous amount of sense in light of the various travesties committed on a regular basis by the US courts.  Moreover, China is one of the very few countries that are not inclined to be cowed by US threats.

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104 Comments:

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother June 12, 2013 12:29 PM  

In a bizarro way, Snowden's logic is impeccable. Which other country is most likely to say "Fuck off" to the US? How much money do we owe them?

Strange days, gents.

Anonymous dh June 12, 2013 12:39 PM  

His decision makes a tremendous amount of sense in light of the various travesties committed on a regular basis by the US courts. Moreover, China is one of the very few countries that are not inclined to be cowed by US threats.

Agree totally. The CIA will not simply come into Hong Kong like they would a European, former Soviet bloc or South American country, and render him to Gitmo.

Secondly, Hong Kong is part of China but it's not under the same system. It has a very different culture than the mainland. It also has a common law based judiciary which is separate and superior to the primary Chinese legal system, which is basically non-functional.

I hear the talking heads on TV yapping about it, but it really is probably the smartest possible move. And in the end if he's going to be executed or tortured to death he might as well see Hong Kong before he goes.

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother June 12, 2013 12:44 PM  

I hear they have great Hot & Sour soup, so he's got that going for him, which is nice.

Anonymous FUBAR Nation Ben June 12, 2013 12:47 PM  

Interesting that a former colony of the West that wanted to stay under British control may remind the West of its brilliant common law tradition that protected the rights of free men.

Anonymous DrTorch June 12, 2013 12:49 PM  

In my naivete I have been surprised at how many "conservatives" hold Snowden in disdain. And how his fleeing to HK somehow is more proof that he's evil.

Instead, it should be an even greater indictment on what the US has become.

Anonymous VD June 12, 2013 12:52 PM  

Instead, it should be an even greater indictment on what the US has become.

Absolutely. He can't get a fair trial in the USA. Hell, my father couldn't.

Anonymous Koanic June 12, 2013 12:53 PM  

Russia would've been safer but looked like treason. Hong Kong is the principled choice.

I questioned the city choice until I saw this announcement. Well played. Now the Chinese will lose face if the buckle.

And the Chinese.... do not. lose. face.

Anonymous Northern Observer June 12, 2013 12:58 PM  

It really is as good as it gets for him. Largely free of the Chinese government but still completely under their protection. Also very open to westerners but nationalistic enough resist US bullying.

Of course, all it will take will be for the US to side with China on some territorial or large trade dispute and the Chinese government will step in and remind them that they really are part of China. The only tricky part for them would how to spin the hand over.

Anonymous Mr. B.A.D. June 12, 2013 1:05 PM  

ha ha, the web site is now unavailible

Anonymous paradox June 12, 2013 1:07 PM  

Very well played by Snowden. He went to a tyrannical regime to prove the US is even more tyrannical and lawless. Too bad the f**king American sheep are entirely too stupid to understand this.

Moonbat neocons believe breaking a regulation is treason, but patriotic when the feds break the 4th Amendment.

Anonymous Porky June 12, 2013 1:17 PM  

His decision makes a tremendous amount of sense...

If, as he says, he just wants to reveal criminality he could have easily remained anonymous by sending encrypted files to the press.

His major miscalculation, however, was in gauging the sentiment of the population.

Nobody cares.

Anonymous Ten41 June 12, 2013 1:17 PM  

Mr. B.A.D.

ha ha, the web site is now unavailable


I was able to hit it via the link.

Anonymous nope June 12, 2013 1:19 PM  

"Cowed by the US"?

As if China is going to stand on grounds of principle in a political negotiation?

That's the most retarded thing said about this whole affair.

If he does go under because of politics you can be sure it will be leftists organizations that will be on it, not the right which generally loves to see any whistleblowers punished severly, especially where national security is involved, and not libertarians who talk a big talk but never put anything on the line when it comes down to it. The reason libertarians love this guy is he had the balls to do what so few of them would ever attempt.

OpenID cailcorishev June 12, 2013 1:20 PM  

I assume all the people calling Snowden a traitor can point to the many articles they wrote calling for the head of Jack Anderson before his death in 2005.

Blogger IM2L844 June 12, 2013 1:21 PM  

Given the length of time he said he's been thinking about it, It's likely that Snowden knows much more about the political and legal dynamics of his choice of Hong Kong than most realize. He strikes me as being smarter than what he's being given credit for in the media so far. We'll see if he's smart enough to keep from being assassinated. That'll be the trick.

Blogger Nate June 12, 2013 1:21 PM  

"His decision makes a tremendous amount of sense in light of the various travesties committed on a regular basis by the US courts."

Indeed.

His choice only looks insane to the insufficiently intelligent.

Blogger Nate June 12, 2013 1:27 PM  

"In my naivete I have been surprised at how many "conservatives" hold Snowden in disdain. And how his fleeing to HK somehow is more proof that he's evil."

On Monday.. against my better judgement... I turned on Huckabee and Herman Cain just to have my suspicions confirmed. They didn't disappoint. Every caller I heard was calling in to talk about hanging the treasonist Snowden.

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother June 12, 2013 1:28 PM  

Nope,

Your political understanding skills must be off today. China won't hold on to him out of principle, far from it. They will hold on to him to teach the US a lesson, project power over the US, demonstrate that the US can be made to look powerless, foolish, etc., to beat us at our own game of freedom and liberty, on and on.

Anonymous Koanic June 12, 2013 1:29 PM  

"We'll see if he's smart enough to keep from being assassinated. That'll be the trick."

Again, why Russia would be the safer choice. But he's going for transparency to the English world. If they bump him off in HK, there'll be lots of English language press about it. Better than hiding in the Ecuadorean embassy.

Oh, and the Chinese would WET themselves for a chance to put the USG on showtrial.

Anonymous farmer Tom June 12, 2013 1:30 PM  

"He strikes me as being smarter than what he's being given credit for in the media so far."

If I have heard the pejorative mentioning of his only having a GED once, I've heard it 30 or 35 times.

The education cabal along with most statist knuckle draggers assume that anyone who did not attend their government sponsored edmucation/indoctrination center is somehow incapable of intelligent, rational, principled thought. That he did not finish the indoctrination gulag is exactly why he is capable of intelligent, rational and principled thinking.

Anonymous Koanic June 12, 2013 1:30 PM  

That's pretty much a mainstay of CCTV Beijing - invite cooperative Westerners to a panel discussion, then bash the shit out of the US.

Women yo yi ge cooperating whitey!

Anonymous Lysander Spooner June 12, 2013 1:35 PM  

The last Evil Empire, The Empire of Lies is crumbling, the center never holds.

Pelosi, Boehner, et al and the Obama/Bush/Clinton Cabal will be lucky if they aren't barbecued.

Interesting times.....Indeed.

"Oh what tangled webs we weave. When first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

Anonymous dh June 12, 2013 1:49 PM  

If, as he says, he just wants to reveal criminality he could have easily remained anonymous by sending encrypted files to the press.

Very unlikely that anyone would have published them. The press must be able to establish that they did not solicit the information, else they are part of a conspiracy. If they do not have a public whistleblower than they have substantial personal and corporate responsibility to deal with.

Anonymous civilServant June 12, 2013 1:53 PM  

I have faith in Hong Kong’s rule of law

Given how many high-level chinese have established residence in the United States and are thus subject to recent NSA surveillance it will be interesting to see which prevails - rule of law or guanxi.

Anonymous Will Best June 12, 2013 1:55 PM  

In my naivete I have been surprised at how many "conservatives" hold Snowden in disdain. And how his fleeing to HK somehow is more proof that he's evil.

The logic I don't understand are those that say the NSA needs to be punished, more safeguards, yada yada yada... and then also say but he broke the law and should be punished.

Because the only way those statements work together is if the actual affects of his crime (giving bad guys an idea of how pervasive our spying is) is somehow greater than the NSA's crime of spying on millions of innocents and storing that information for future use. Its not like Snowden had any place to go but the media with this information. The judiciary was already rubber stamping the administration's request with Congress's full knowledge.

Anonymous Porky June 12, 2013 2:00 PM  

The press must be able to establish that they did not solicit the information

One word...Wikileaks.

Blogger Nate June 12, 2013 2:01 PM  

"Again, why Russia would be the safer choice"

I myself would've picked Russia... but I fully appreciate his choice of Hong Kong.

Blogger Nate June 12, 2013 2:03 PM  

"One word...Wikileaks."

people are very skeptical of wikileaks these days. The story would've had less impact.

Anonymous dh June 12, 2013 2:11 PM  

One word...Wikileaks.

You mean the organization where one whistleblower was in solitary confinement for 13 months and had to sleep naked?

Or the one where the founder is living in 200 sq feet in the basement of an embassy to avoid being eventually extradited to the US?

Anonymous VD June 12, 2013 2:13 PM  

China won't hold on to him out of principle, far from it. They will hold on to him to teach the US a lesson, project power over the US, demonstrate that the US can be made to look powerless, foolish, etc., to beat us at our own game of freedom and liberty, on and on.

You don't seem to understand that it doesn't matter why they hold onto him. The point is that they will protect him and their interests are aligned with his, at least for the time being. He can't get that anywhere else but Moscow.

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother June 12, 2013 2:17 PM  

VD,

Of course it doesn't matter why they hold on to him. The only thing that does matter is they aren't holding on to him out of principle.

Anonymous Cainiac June 12, 2013 2:18 PM  

"I turned on Huckabee and Herman Cain just to have my suspicions confirmed."

Nate, you must have felt your IQ rising threefold just by hearing the mellifluous, wisdom-infused, near-divine voice of The Cain Train (TM) pass from Heaven itself to your radio speakers.

Anonymous Noah B. June 12, 2013 2:21 PM  

"Nobody cares."

Among the people I talk to face to face, I've heard more outrage about this season's penultimate Game of Thrones episode than I have about the NSA's illegal spying.

Anonymous Noah B. June 12, 2013 2:23 PM  

Lapsing into optimism for a moment, it may have more to do with people feeling helpless than simply not caring that they're being spied on.

Blogger Nate June 12, 2013 2:23 PM  

"Nate, you must have felt your IQ rising threefold just by hearing the mellifluous, wisdom-infused, near-divine voice of The Cain Train (TM) pass from Heaven itself to your radio speakers."

in the last couple days Tor has been mentioned on both Cain and Huckabee.

Neither had ever heard of Tor before and neither had any idea what the caller was talking about.

Tells ya everything ya need to know.

Anonymous Van June 12, 2013 2:27 PM  

OT- Vox

http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2013/06/12/federal-reserve-bank-deposits/

The Fed has been paying interest on funds deposited by banks, causing the amount held to rise from $250B to $1T. So much of the money lent to banks by the Fed is then returned as deposits and earning interest, rather than being lent to smaller banks and consumers.

If interested, please address wherever relevent, but I don't want to divert. Significant enough to hold down inflation? average Joes getting doubly screwed (once when money is created and given to the banks, again when said banks earn interest)?

Anonymous FP June 12, 2013 2:28 PM  

Dammit guys, the ex-CIA expert on CNN said he should go to Sweden! Hot feminist babes and rioting muslims galore! He's a traitor! China isn't free! We're free! He's a traitor! And a dumbo security guard with a GED! Oooh, look! A squirrel!



"In my naivete I have been surprised at how many "conservatives" hold Snowden in disdain. And how his fleeing to HK somehow is more proof that he's evil."

You weren't the only one. I should've known better but hope springs eternal. Limbaugh so far seems even handed about the whole thing. It seems to be a majority of conservative blog commenters I've read support him or at least that what he released is a bigger issue than if he's a traitor or not.

Anonymous Porky June 12, 2013 2:31 PM  

...people are very skeptical of wikileaks these days.

People are very skeptical of Snowden these days. But I think I'm seeing the wisdom in the move to HK.

You mean the organization where one whistleblower was in solitary confinement for 13 months and had to sleep naked?

Or the one where the founder is living in 200 sq feet in the basement of an embassy to avoid being eventually extradited to the US?


Assange was not anonymous and Manning couldn't keep his mouth shut. Snowden had the advantage of being both anonymous and discreet but chose to sacrifice his queen during the opening. I guess we'll find out if the guy is a player or a patzer.


Blogger RobertT June 12, 2013 2:33 PM  

" I have been surprised at how many "conservatives" hold Snowden in disdain."

Rush's law - Everybody in government lies. You can't be sure what they're lying about, but you can be sure they're lying."

I hate to say it, because it just seem so putzy, but it's getting to where the only talking heads you can trust any more are Glenn Beck and Mark Levine. The next thing you know, I'll be throwing in with Barnhardt.

Anonymous dh June 12, 2013 2:35 PM  

Glenn Beck and Mark Levine

Never heard the later, but the former has messianic tendencies and has a bit of a habit of crack-pottery. It doesn't mean he doesn't have his moments though.

Anonymous dh June 12, 2013 2:38 PM  

Assange was not anonymous and Manning couldn't keep his mouth shut. Snowden had the advantage of being both anonymous and discreet but chose to sacrifice his queen during the opening. I guess we'll find out if the guy is a player or a patzer.

The point is that posted to an anonymous online source, these are not trusted. No major entity will publish them, because they can be assured of the providence. For all you know more damaging materials are already floating around p2p networks or edges of the internet.

On the other hand, doing what he did has made this THE STORY for 7 days. Is anything likely to change? No, but it is possible. Possible. 7 days ago, it was not possible.

So yeah, time will tell, but this is a huge intensification of the push back from the people against the government.

Anonymous FP June 12, 2013 2:39 PM  

Hah, ok Limbaugh just compared the NSA phone spying to the immigration bill. He wants to go in the shadows like the 11 million illegals. The NSA can record all phone calls and access meta data but can't find all the illegals.

Anonymous Salt June 12, 2013 2:46 PM  

Snowdon's girlfriend.

He has good taste.

Anonymous Porky June 12, 2013 2:46 PM  

So yeah, time will tell, but this is a huge intensification of the push back from the people against the government.

Lol! The only hope at this point is the ACLU lawsuit which will go absolutely nowhere for years and years. Eventually Snowden will become Bobby Fisher.

Dudes.... the boot is on the face already. The fact that Winston "Snowden" Smith hasn't yet been taken to Room 101 does not change this.

If there is any hope it is with the proles. Have you seen the proles lately?

Anonymous Poglavnik June 12, 2013 2:55 PM  

US government is spying on it`s people and that`s bad,but they are so incompetent they can`t hire someone who is not going to betray them.They gave Manning security clearances and know this guy.

They should hire better henchmen.

Anonymous JartStar June 12, 2013 2:58 PM  

" I have been surprised at how many "conservatives" hold Snowden in disdain."

Because they are conservatives, not libertarians or rebels. Conservatives strive first to maintain the status quo, stability, order, and only after this becomes untenable will they act to change things. As Markku pointed out the other day for many if not all conservatives this man will have to be sacrificed on the altar of social cohesion.

Anonymous Van June 12, 2013 2:59 PM  

Henchman? I only go as far as lackey.

Anonymous Gi812 June 12, 2013 3:02 PM  

Snowden is a traitor to the corrupt government. Like the mob the government wants him dead to set the example. I wonder what the seal team # will be. will they bury him out at sea.

Blogger IM2L844 June 12, 2013 3:03 PM  

So yeah, time will tell, but this is a huge intensification of the push back from the people against the government.

It's interesting that there is marching in the streets in support of Snowden in Hong Kong, but nothing similar that I know of in the USA yet.

Anonymous dh June 12, 2013 3:09 PM  

It's interesting that there is marching in the streets in support of Snowden in Hong Kong, but nothing similar that I know of in the USA yet.

Yeah, it's a little bit of an oddity. But on the other hand the government so far can't even figure out how to address it.

Anonymous Will Best June 12, 2013 3:25 PM  

It's interesting that there is marching in the streets in support of Snowden in Hong Kong, but nothing similar that I know of in the USA yet. Because if you march on the streets in Hong Kong you don't end up a high priority target for NSA surveillance

Anonymous dh June 12, 2013 3:27 PM  

They gave Manning security clearances and know this guy.

They should hire better henchmen.


This is a central argument for why the government shouldn't have the data. The state of IT in the government is incredibly weak. How can we be sure that the data isn't being used or compromised by outside forces. By China?

Anonymous Despair June 12, 2013 3:29 PM  

Besides HK and Russia, Iceland would work as well.

Anonymous Clay June 12, 2013 3:33 PM  

@ Salt:

" Salt June 12, 2013 2:46 PM Snowdon's girlfriend.

He has good taste."



You sure that's his girlfriend? I thought I saw Snowdwen quoted as referring to his "partner"...which, seems to be code these days for "poofter".

I thought Manning was out of the closet, too?


Hell, they nearly took the British government down.

Anonymous kh123 June 12, 2013 3:34 PM  

"It's interesting that there is marching in the streets in support of Snowden in Hong Kong..."

Spontaneous I'm assuming.

Blogger TontoBubbaGoldstein June 12, 2013 3:37 PM  

...the only talking heads you can trust any more are Glenn Beck and Mark Levine.

While, I'll agree that Beck has his moments.....I sincerely hope that you listen to a guy named Mark Levine, that I have never heard of. If you meant Mark Levin....

*Thinks about how to phrase this politely and diplomatically*

....you are epicly wrong.

Mark Levin is the Lindsey Graham of talking heads.

Anonymous DrTorch June 12, 2013 3:40 PM  

It's interesting that there is marching in the streets in support of Snowden in Hong Kong, but nothing similar that I know of in the USA yet

If it started at Rt 32 and the B-W Parkway, I think I'd join in.

Anonymous cheddarman June 12, 2013 3:45 PM  

Snowden is the real conservative, in that he is trying to preserve/restore the rule of law in the U.S.

Blogger IM2L844 June 12, 2013 3:48 PM  

Because if you march on the streets in Hong Kong you don't end up a high priority target for NSA surveillance

Or because texting and tweeting about it is more than enough effort for most American idiots. Perhaps when the weather's nicer.

Blogger TontoBubbaGoldstein June 12, 2013 3:54 PM  

Snowdon's girlfriend.

He has good taste.


You think "svelte ". I think "anorexic".

You think "beautiful alabaster skin". I think "pale and pasty".

You think "toned". I think "manly looking arms, with bulbous veins popping out".


We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, Hoss.

Anonymous Concerned Rabbit Hunter June 12, 2013 3:55 PM  

Is it possible that there is a message here?

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/06/12/heartlands-nippc-report-to-be-accepted-by-chinese-academy-of-sciences-in-special-ceremony/

OpenID newrebeluniv June 12, 2013 3:58 PM  

1. Not a traitor, but would be found guilty of the lessor crimes of unauthorized released of classified information, and he would deserve it, because that is what he did and it is a crime.

2. No one cares enough about Snowden to bother assassinating him. No one. This is a minor criminal matter.

3. Snowden isn't throwing himself to the Chinese courts. He hasn't broken their laws so he has no fear of arrest there and no fear of extradition here. So in every way that matters, he is fleeing justice, not submitting to it in "better courts".

4. For that matter, I don't see how the Chinese gain anything at all by not extraditing Snowden. He is a meaningless small fish. Easy enough to trade him (despite whatever rights he may have under common law) for one of those other Chinese spies currently in US prison. But really, no reason to bother with him either way. If he goes into a Chinese court, it will only be to determine extradition, not the merits of his case. And they are likely to find against him because that's what civilized countries do.

--Hale

Anonymous Porky June 12, 2013 4:03 PM  

@Tontobubbagoldstein

I was beginning to think that I was the only one who thought that broad was hideous.

Go eat a cheeseburger, honey. Eat 3 or 4. And try not to puke 'em up this time.

Blogger IM2L844 June 12, 2013 4:09 PM  

newrebeluniv, possibly, but the odds are that you are not in a position to know.

Anonymous FP June 12, 2013 4:11 PM  

Somewhat OT

NJ off duty cop shoots driver in road rage incident:
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/52152391

Anonymous IdHitIt June 12, 2013 4:12 PM  

"Go eat a cheeseburger, honey. Eat 3 or 4. And try not to puke 'em up this time."

What she lacks in girth she makes up for in flexibility...

Anonymous Dan in Tx June 12, 2013 4:15 PM  

Tonto: " Mark Levin is the Lindsey Graham of talking heads."

This.

Blogger Nate June 12, 2013 4:32 PM  

Hale...

do deputy directors of the CIA often resign over... "minor legal matters"?

Blogger Scott June 12, 2013 4:57 PM  

Come on. How can anyone take anyone seriously after they say,

"But I believed in Obama's promises."

Seriously? Any free thinking human being after a half an hour of research during the 2008 election cycle would most definitely not have "believed in Obama".

I am not taking stock. I'm kind of surprised VD has fully embraced this guy.

Blogger Nate June 12, 2013 4:59 PM  

"Seriously? Any free thinking human being after a half an hour of research during the 2008 election cycle would most definitely not have "believed in Obama".

I am not taking stock. I'm kind of surprised VD has fully embraced this guy."

You should consider that sometimes people say things for reasons that are not necessarily obvious to the reader.

To put it another way...

By saying that he is sending a message. It is not what you think it is... and it is not to who you think its to.

Anonymous Obvious June 12, 2013 5:03 PM  

Someone should explain how this is an violation of 4th amendment rights.

Anonymous SDH June 12, 2013 5:16 PM  

Snowdon's girlfriend.

He has good taste.


Tranny.

Anonymous Agent Obvious June 12, 2013 5:28 PM  

I CAN DISSIMULATING.

Blogger Scott June 12, 2013 5:29 PM  

You should consider that sometimes people say things for reasons that are not necessarily obvious to the reader.

Sure, but so far Snowden has been a pretty straight shooter with regard to the content of his "message". There's no indication (to me) that he's intimating some other message. And, more to the point, in my view Snowden doesn't appear to have the capacity or position of power such that overseeing powers should fear his underlying message, if there was one. Snowden had at most one giant chip to play and he played it.

I understand what you're saying, Nate. It's not unreasonable to consider there's more than meets the eye. But in this case it's not coming together, at all.

Anonymous fish June 12, 2013 5:52 PM  

....do deputy directors of the CIA often resign over... "minor legal matters"?


Of course they do...in the most ethical and transparent administration ever.

Anonymous Porky June 12, 2013 5:52 PM  

There's no indication (to me) that he's intimating some other message.

Snowden knows he will lose in the court of law so he is playing to the court of popular opinion.

So far it doesn't seem to be working. And he's got both major political parties calling him a traitor all day long in the media. We haven't even got to the part yet where it is discovered that Snowden beat up a hooker in a drug fueled rage while molesting a goat.

Anonymous The CronoLink June 12, 2013 6:33 PM  

Well, this clears a lot of my doubts; let's see how this game is played out in the next months

Anonymous Lysander Spooner June 12, 2013 6:45 PM  

"Snowdon's girlfriend. He has good taste."

She is clearly a narcissist, likely would have taken him to the cleaners cuz one day she will awaken and be ........unhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaapy.

Better to go East young man, and leave the Western slooots behind.

Anonymous LeslieSusan June 12, 2013 7:06 PM  

Nate

I saw where a deputy director resigned to join Obama's Intelligence Advisory Board. Is that what you are referring to? Or was there another deputy director who has resigned?

Anonymous sprach von Teufelhunden June 12, 2013 7:07 PM  

As usual, we tend focus too much on the messenger, and not the message. What needs to be put on trial here, is not Snowden. What needs to be put on trial, is the Patriot Act, Main Core, and Rex 84. Who should be prosecuted here, is people like Col. Oliver North. Start with him, go from there.

Reagan, Colby, Casey, and Odom are deceased. You want to call a material witness in discovery? Call Leo Wanta. He knows where the bodies are buried. You want to point fingers, at those still alive to get to the bottom of this? Those fingers point to G.H.W.B., Cheney, G.W.B., Rice, Rumsfeld, the Clintons.......... Where do you want to stop?

Anonymous nope June 12, 2013 7:13 PM  

You don't seem to understand that it doesn't matter why they hold onto him. The point is that they will protect him and their interests are aligned with his, at least for the time being. He can't get that anywhere else but Moscow.

You don't seem to understand that they won't hold on to him at all. They have no reason to. Despite the fantasies of libertardians everywhere, international politics is played on a platform of pragmatics among people with big-boy pants on. China is not going to hold on to him because he doesn't matter, whether to prove a point on principle or to be able to wag a hypocritical finger at the US on a public stage. If political pressure enters into it at all, he will be exchanged for some minor concession from the US in a back room deal, or more likely, he'll just be extradited out of good will among countries that do much more important business with each other.

Libertarians are political losers, always and everywhere. They are outcasts on the political stage. And like the bitter losers in high school who hope that a minor stumble by a jock is going to bring him down from the heights of the social ladder, they amplify every minor stumble by the institutions of the system they hate and imagine that this is finally the one that will bring the whole thing crashing down. And you are perennially disappointed. That, to a sensible person, is pure schadenfreude.

Blogger TontoBubbaGoldstein June 12, 2013 7:45 PM  


Better to go East young man, and leave the Western slooots behind.


Mr Snowden may well be waaaayyy ahead of you there, LS. He did choose Hong Kong, after all.

Anonymous sprach von Teufelhunden June 12, 2013 7:50 PM  

@nope

Political losers huh? Allow me to introduce to you some "political losers." Losers of the nature, that have the knowledge and means to bury their opposition [1], in a most extreme manner if they so choose. The fact that they have chosen not to do so, to date, gives an indication of their political maturity and humanity. The likes of guys like you, "pushing on a string," those times may well change...


---------
[1] 11-01-12, 04-22-13

Anonymous E. PERLINE June 12, 2013 8:17 PM  

I read that over 2 million people have Snowden's access to security matters. So why is it so surprising that one, for some arcane reason, has blabbed?







Blogger TontoBubbaGoldstein June 12, 2013 8:26 PM  

We haven't even got to the part yet where it is discovered that Snowden beat up a hooker in a drug fueled rage while molesting a goat.

Just for clarification, was it the hooker or Snowden that was molesting the goat?

Also, if there is video and it took place in Rio , pleeaaase post a link!

Anonymous Idle Spectator June 12, 2013 8:51 PM  

Snowden knows he will lose in the court of law so he is playing to the court of popular opinion.

It worked for Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers.

So far it doesn't seem to be working. And he's got both major political parties calling him a traitor all day long in the media. We haven't even got to the part yet where it is discovered that Snowden beat up a hooker in a drug fueled rage while molesting a goat.

If they try anything, it will just make him look more sympathetic. It worked for Julian Assange.

Anonymous Obvious June 12, 2013 9:28 PM  

Julian Assange looks sympathetic? To who?

Blogger IM2L844 June 12, 2013 10:17 PM  

international politics is played on a platform of pragmatics

Pragmatism makes the world go round? Enlighten us, oh wise one. This should be fun.

Anonymous Idle Spectator June 12, 2013 10:36 PM  

Julian Assange looks sympathetic? To who?

To anyone who didn't buy the Swedish government bullshit that trying to have surprise sleeping sex is the same as gang-raping a defenseless Ethiopian farmer in the hinterland of the Simien Mountains by five rogue Eritrean soldiers.


You know, people where the brain touches the spinal column (i.e. not Swedish Feminists).

Anonymous TheExpat June 12, 2013 10:51 PM  

"He strikes me as being smarter than what he's being given credit for in the media so far."

As speculated, according his girlfriend's now-closed blog he is indeed a chess player.
Also, the pattern of high school slacker -> gets serious only when he needs the certificate -> physically gifted enough to be admitted to special forces training, even if he did wash out due to injury -> gifted computer and systems operator/administrator, all within a few short years, speaks of quite high intelligence. I would not be surprised if he also has advanced hacking skills, and he has been smart enough to sanitize his personal dossier for at least four years to avoid suspicion while maneuvering himself into the position to enable him to do what he did.


"His major miscalculation, however, was in gauging the sentiment of the population.

Nobody cares."


This. Although, I wonder if he did not also consider this possibility, hence his leaving the U.S., where public opinion would not protect him, and going to an international media center where international public opinion is markedly more sympathetic.

Also, with respect to public sentiment in the U.S., Snowden is important in much the same way that Ron Paul was in the last presidential election: he is presenting a clear choice.

OpenID whoism3 June 12, 2013 11:48 PM  

I just hope they don't send Batman after him. Batman has no jurisdiction.

Snowden is seen as a hero throughout the world. Most Americans wouldn't know it because your state run media has devolved into something akin to CCCP tv.

Blogger IM2L844 June 12, 2013 11:49 PM  

I read that over 2 million people have Snowden's access to security matters.

I don't know where you read that, but it seems a little too high to be believable. That would roughly be one out of every 175 people in the US. I don't think so

Anonymous Northern Observer June 12, 2013 11:54 PM  

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/nsa-leaker-ed-snowdens-life-on-ars-technica/

He really doesn't seem like much. Some of his posts were from when he was a teenager, but even in some of the later ones he doesn't seem like much of a networking/security/IT guru. They definitely don't read like posts from someone whose expertise can command $200K/year.

Blogger IM2L844 June 13, 2013 12:08 AM  

They definitely don't read like posts from someone whose expertise can command $200K/year.

Trying to read people from a select handful of internet posts is tricky at best.

Anonymous Anonagain June 13, 2013 12:14 AM  

On a related note: Rep. Jeff Duncan Questions IRS Training With Automatic Rifles (Video)

Blogger Scott June 13, 2013 12:34 AM  

No one cares.

What is most relevant is the MSM loathes all 4 scandals, they want them to go away. As good Progressive lapdogs they barely cover them if at all. Lately they are pretty much out in the open with their cooperation with and support of the Democratic party. No one cares about or even notices that either.

Our mainstream dumbass citizenry are barely aware of what's going on. They are 100% content so long as the cable networks are brainwashing, the internet is porning, the phones are chatting, the iGames are distracting, and Starbucks is caffeinating. That is unless the TV tells them to want or hate something else. The people of the United States of America are for the most part idiots. It's the only explanation.

All 4 scandals are decaying before our eyes; each will shrink to nothing more than the size of fast-n-furious. Holder may lose his job at best.

And get off my lawn!

Anonymous bob k. mando June 13, 2013 1:06 AM  

heh.

evidently, Snowden used to be a regular at Ars Technica:
http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1208297

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/nsa-leaker-ed-snowdens-life-on-ars-technica/

Blogger IM2L844 June 13, 2013 1:11 AM  

Our mainstream dumbass citizenry are barely aware of what's going on.

Sad, but true. As I've said many times now, a majority of people are going to have to personally experience a sense of desperation - a feeling of being backed into a corner with no other option except to fight their way out - before anything beyond internet activism manifests.

I hate to say it, but the feminists & LGBT activists have bigger balls than most men today.

Anonymous A Visitor June 13, 2013 1:18 AM  

Among the people I talk to face to face, I've heard more outrage about this season's penultimate Game of Thrones episode than I have about the NSA's illegal spying.

*Facepalm*

I remember hearing on Limbaugh that they did a survey and a slim majority supported the NSA doing what they were doing. What a crock. I have Verizon too for my home and work phone; heh.

They must be stunned why my phone never leaves my apartment and is rarely used. Work on the other hand I'm not too concerned about.

The next thing you know, I'll be throwing in with Barnhardt. I wonder about her some times.

Snowdon's girlfriend. Pretty! Reminds me of my ex (I'm not kidding).

If there is any hope it is with the proles. Have you seen the proles lately?

There's one in the bar talking about a bo'lle instead of telling me what London was like before the party took over!

Conservatives strive first to maintain the status quo, stability, order, and only after this becomes untenable will they act to change things. It's why I consider myself a traditionalist or whatever at this point. There's nothing about the present political system that I'd want to conserve. I'm for conserving the Constitution, the rule of law, and stopping government excesses of power.

How can anyone take anyone seriously after they say,

"But I believed in Obama's promises."
He was a naive fool in that regard. Having said that, who knows? Maybe he just had seen so much of the status quo of the two wings of the same bird system coupled with him being jaded about PRISM that he thought Dear Leader might change things? I would never be as foolish as to believe such crap but stranger things have happened.

Where do you want to stop? Dear Leader and his ilk included! They've kept up this charade. Even though about 90% of the government is made up of civil servants (only about 10% changes from administration to administration), he knew about it and kept it going (might have even expanded it).

Anonymous Herman the German June 13, 2013 4:38 AM  

Will Best said: The logic I don't understand are those that say the NSA needs to be punished, more safeguards, yada yada yada... and then also say but he broke the law and should be punished.

--King Stannis....all...the...way. Or...Kohlberg Level 4 moral development. Classic Republitard M.O.

Anonymous Idle Joker June 13, 2013 4:46 AM  

I just hope they don't send Batman after him. Batman has no jurisdiction.

I know the squealers when I see them, whoism3.

Batman will find him, and make him squeal.


We just need to combine Vox's 1980s hair with my mind, and I'll kill the Batman.

Anonymous Herman the German June 13, 2013 6:37 AM  

You think "toned". I think "manly looking arms, with bulbous veins popping out".


We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, Hoss.


---Good call, TontoB.G.. I _also_ prefer my females to actually look like females....Well said, Sir.

Anonymous E. PERLINE June 13, 2013 1:08 PM  

I read that in Hong Kong you don't need a permit to erect a non-electric business sign. I used to be in the sign business and I know that now every American town must collect a fee and approve the design, even when it is legally zoned.

The permit comes after a painfully long wait for a committee to make
a "decorator" decision. For instance, a famous delivery company was denied a permit to open in Tamarac Florida because their basic company color was brown.

This may sound funny, but it is the reason Hong Kong is number one in growth while the US is declining. We should also examine our planted feelings that business start-ups are ugly.

Anonymous E. PERLINE June 13, 2013 11:31 PM  

Regarding the 2 million government workers who are cleared to get secrets, the secrets vary in category. I admit I don't know what category this one is.

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