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Monday, June 17, 2013

Edward Snowdon's liveblog Q&A

If there is any doubt that Snowdon is a hero, the fact that he is openly taking questions from the public and addressing them should settle that one.
1) Why did you choose Hong Kong to go to and then tell them about US hacking on their research facilities and universities?
2) How many sets of the documents you disclosed did you make, and how many different people have them? If anything happens to you, do they still exist?

1) First, the US Government, just as they did with other whistleblowers, immediately and predictably destroyed any possibility of a fair trial at home, openly declaring me guilty of treason and that the disclosure of secret, criminal, and even unconstitutional acts is an unforgivable crime. That's not justice, and it would be foolish to volunteer yourself to it if you can do more good outside of prison than in it.

Second, let's be clear: I did not reveal any US operations against legitimate military targets. I pointed out where the NSA has hacked civilian infrastructure such as universities, hospitals, and private businesses because it is dangerous. These nakedly, aggressively criminal acts are wrong no matter the target. Not only that, when NSA makes a technical mistake during an exploitation operation, critical systems crash. Congress hasn't declared war on the countries - the majority of them are our allies - but without asking for public permission, NSA is running network operations against them that affect millions of innocent people.

And for what? So we can have secret access to a computer in a country we're not even fighting? So we can potentially reveal a potential terrorist with the potential to kill fewer Americans than our own Police? No, the public needs to know the kinds of things a government does in its name, or the "consent of the governed" is meaningless.

2) All I can say right now is the US Government is not going to be able to cover this up by jailing or murdering me. Truth is coming, and it cannot be stopped.
Two great quotes:

"The consent of the governed is not consent if it is not informed." 

"Citizens with a conscience are not going to ignore wrong-doing simply because they'll be destroyed for it: the conscience forbids it."

Those are the words of a free man and a hero of human liberty.

Labels: ,

145 Comments:

Anonymous Daniel June 17, 2013 11:52 AM  

Yep. That does it for me (well, that and his face). Actually, I never doubted him, but I wondered if he was set up. The set-up doesn't sound quite right, though, because they normally do that to guys who are dumb about the media protocols.

Anonymous dh June 17, 2013 11:53 AM  

This is really brilliant. The pig fuckers at the NSA will be working overtime to obfuscate and clean up after this dump.

Plus the guy is becoming a a celebrity which is not bad for his personal safety.

Anonymous dh June 17, 2013 11:57 AM  

He's really hitting the shit out of these people. Great answers. Policy is no protection - exactly.

Blogger Markku June 17, 2013 11:58 AM  

A few hours ago while I was driving to eat lunch, it was said on radio news that Beijing has stated that it would be shameful of them to allow Snowden to be extradited to USA. Strange that it isn't on Drudge yet.

Blogger Markku June 17, 2013 12:01 PM  

I mean, when the Chinese say essentially "let's just agree that if we do this, then we lose face", they're not going to do it.

Anonymous dh June 17, 2013 12:01 PM  

I mean, when the Chinese say essentially "let's just agree that if we do this, then we lose face", they're not going to do it.

Shame is big in China. Do you remember the station? Was it BBC or NPR?

Anonymous FUBAR Nation Ben June 17, 2013 12:03 PM  

Predictably, scumbag Cheney has come out from his cave to brand Snowden a traitor.

Blogger Markku June 17, 2013 12:04 PM  

Hey, I'm a Finn. It was Radio Nova, but the original source is this Chinese magazine.

Blogger Ben Cohen June 17, 2013 12:04 PM  

Hong Kong was a good move. It has the backing of the Chinese government plus the common law of Britain.

Blogger Nate June 17, 2013 12:09 PM  

Giant Balls. Giant. Giant. Balls.

Blogger Leni Dog June 17, 2013 12:10 PM  

Smart move on his part. Wonder if he got some advice before he picked HK.

N5

Anonymous dh June 17, 2013 12:13 PM  

Being called a traitor by Dick Cheney is the highest honor you can give an American, and the more panicked talk we hear from people like him, Feinstein, and King, the better off we all are. If they had taught a class on how to be the kind of citizen Dick Cheney worries about, I would have finished high school.

BOOM.

I think 10-12 Snowden's from all over the government and the whole thing would collapse.

Blogger Markku June 17, 2013 12:23 PM  

Heh heh, I checked the state's news channel YLE, and right on the front page is F-Secure's Mikko Hyppönen saying that Microsoft's et al's assurances are completely worthless and have nothing to do with the actual scandal, and that the most likely way everyone is being watched is that there are NSA and/or CIA moles in the biggest companies. The leadership probably don't even know who they are.

When the state news give what would have been considered tinfoil hat theories a few months ago, well, a scandal pretty much can't blow over any further than that.

Blogger hadley June 17, 2013 12:26 PM  

Millionaires like Feinstein and Franken pretend to fight for the underdog, but once they have the ear of the Prince the attacks cease. They know who butters their bread. Like Jerry Rubin, who was all up in Nixon's face for civil liberties and socialism until somebody got him a job on Wall Street. Once there is big money to be made it's "So long, chump!"

Anonymous Koanic June 17, 2013 12:26 PM  

"I mean, when the Chinese say essentially "let's just agree that if we do this, then we lose face", they're not going to do it."

That's actually a level beyond the highest "no" I thought they had: "It is difficult".

Oh and they are just going BANANAS over the passive aggressive opportunity to flip the China hacking script.

This will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever stop playing on Chinese airwaves. Ever.

They will have to permanently reschedule some heroic Communist revolutionary army drama airtime.

Anonymous Daniel June 17, 2013 12:30 PM  

"Citizens with a conscience are not going to ignore wrong-doing simply because they'll be destroyed for it: the conscience forbids it."

Cheney may want to detain prisoners, but Snowden takes none.

Anonymous Daniel June 17, 2013 12:33 PM  

"Ask yourself: if I were a Chinese spy, why wouldn't I have flown directly into Beijing? I could be living in a palace petting a phoenix by now."

Man I love his style.

Anonymous Roundtine June 17, 2013 12:34 PM  

Denninger had three succinct points.
1. There are bad guys who want to use real WMDs: nukes, biological, chemical weapons.
2. There should be a dedicated group of people who hunt these people down
3. Hunting them down does not involve spying on all Americans

Anonymous Soga June 17, 2013 12:36 PM  

It's almost as if Snowden reads VD.

Anonymous The One June 17, 2013 12:38 PM  

Denninger is wrong.

3. Hunting them down does not involve spying on ANY Americans.

It involves closing the borders.

Anonymous dh June 17, 2013 12:38 PM  

It's almost as if Snowden reads VD.

It's not impossible. The internet circles he traveled in are ones that are probably fairly common with readership here.

More likely Alphagame.

This guy has alpha written all over him. Not all that physically appealing, but obviously the type of guy to make a lady shake...

Anonymous Roundtine June 17, 2013 12:39 PM  

Also, I haven't seen this discussed, but if you could get agents inside the NSA you hit the jackpot. It doesn't even have to be Russian agents, it could be an agent from a hedge fund or the mob. The mob wouldn't have to kill people anymore, they could just find all the dirt they needed to control people. Hell, if you wanted to be President, a good strategy would be to assemble a team to infiltrate NSA.

Anonymous dh June 17, 2013 12:47 PM  

infiltrate NSA

The best argument against the NSA is that they are staffed by people like Snowden. "Infilitrate" is not what is required. Just go apply to be a security guard, show some aptitude, and in 5 years you'll be given the keys to the surveillance state.

Anonymous Sigyn June 17, 2013 12:55 PM  

How many sets of the documents you disclosed did you make, and how many different people have them? If anything happens to you, do they still exist?

...Did they seriously ask him a "have you told anyone else about this" question?

Anonymous Huey Freeman June 17, 2013 12:59 PM  

This is hilarious. You guys seem to believe every single word coming out of snowdens mouth without asking for a shred of evidence or proof, and yet, had this come from someone speaking FOR the government, you guys would be up in arms demanding evidence and proof. Granted, the government is known to lie, but that still begs the question as to why you guys seem to accept snowdens words at face value.

Anonymous FUBAR Nation Ben June 17, 2013 1:02 PM  

I accept Snowden's info because he hasn't been caught lying numerous times like the USG. All I need to know about Snowden is that bad people in the USG want him dead.

Anonymous dh June 17, 2013 1:05 PM  

This is hilarious. You guys seem to believe every single word coming out of snowdens mouth without asking for a shred of evidence or proof, and yet, had this come from someone speaking FOR the government, you guys would be up in arms demanding evidence and proof. Granted, the government is known to lie, but that still begs the question as to why you guys seem to accept snowdens words at face value.

Most of what has been said today is responding to ad hominemns against him. There is nothing factual to contest. His style is commendable if nothing else.

Anonymous Huey Freeman June 17, 2013 1:05 PM  

I accept Snowden's info because he hasn't been caught lying numerous times like the USG. All I need to know about Snowden is that bad people in the USG want him dead.


So basically you're saying the reason we should take his words at face value is because he hasn't been caught lying numerous times and bad people in the USG want him dead? does this go for everyone or just snowden?

Anonymous Sensei June 17, 2013 1:06 PM  


Beijing has stated that it would be shameful of them to allow Snowden to be extradited to USA.

I mean, when the Chinese say essentially "let's just agree that if we do this, then we lose face", they're not going to do it.
-Markku


Heh, that is correct. And when it's Beijing saying that officially, it's also a rather explicit form of gloating.

Anonymous dh June 17, 2013 1:08 PM  

So basically you're saying the reason we should take his words at face value is because he hasn't been caught lying numerous times and bad people in the USG want him dead? does this go for everyone or just snowden?

I think in general when you combine this with leaving a comfortable and western lifestyle behind, probably forever, it gives him credibility that the the Director of National Intelligence, who can't answer Senators truthfully without using the "least-untruthful" answer, doesn't have.

Anonymous Koanic June 17, 2013 1:12 PM  

By the way Daniel, I read your book, and you have fulfilled my lifelong dream - to be a villain in a novel. Unbelievably good, and nice quotes from Snowden here as well.

Anonymous VD June 17, 2013 1:12 PM  

Granted, the government is known to lie, but that still begs the question as to why you guys seem to accept snowdens words at face value.

Because the government is saying he is lying. And the government always lies. I was certain he was telling the truth when they said he was lying because he said he made $200k and they said this was proof he was lying because his SALARY at his current employer was $122k. But that didn't even CONTRADICT what he said.

Perhaps his bonus was 78k. Perhaps he made $200k at a previous employer... which was his subsequent explanation. But it was never proof that he'd lied about how much money he made as the government tried to claim.

Anonymous Ain June 17, 2013 1:13 PM  

All of Snowden's revelations so far are stuff that I had assumed was already common knowledge (the what, if not the how). I'm surprised by all the surprised reactions at large. Has he revealed anything new? What has he done that's so "disastrous?"

Anonymous Roundtine June 17, 2013 1:13 PM  

leaving a comfortable and western lifestyle behind, probably forever,

The way things are going, he would have made 6 figures for life and retired with a fat pension. The stories about him are probably excessive, but if you take them at face value, he hit the jackpot with this job. It was the equivalent of winning the lottery, and he threw it all away.

Anonymous Huey Freeman June 17, 2013 1:13 PM  

Most of what has been said today is responding to ad hominemns against him. There is nothing factual to contest. His style is commendable if nothing else.

Gonna have to disagree with you here. Just from vox's post alone I spot numerous assertions that claim to be fact:


1. First, the US Government, just as they did with other whistleblowers, immediately and predictably destroyed any possibility of a fair trial at home, openly declaring me guilty of treason and that the disclosure of secret, criminal, and even unconstitutional acts is an unforgivable crime.

How does he know they destroyed any possibility of a fair trial at home? how does he know disclosure of secret, criminal, and unconstitutional acts is an unforgivable crime? especially if he hasn't even had a trial yet...



2. I did not reveal any US operations against legitimate military targets.

This one is huge. How does he know he did not reveal any US operations against legitimate military targets? maybe at his position he was not being told the whole story. Is it possible the universities, hospitals, and private businesses he was told to hack were actually legitimate military targets?

These nakedly, aggressively criminal acts are wrong no matter the target.


Wrong? no matter the target? so before (like a couple senetences before), targets mattered, but now they're wrong no matter the target....interesting.

These look like assertion of fact to me. Again, not saying snowden isn't telling the truth, not saying the government isn't lying, I'm just scratching my head wondering why you guys are taking his words at face value.

Blogger Markku June 17, 2013 1:17 PM  

What has he done that's so "disastrous?"

He has made many enough people talk about it, and even forced the highest level of confirmation there can be: Government denial. Now it's a proper small talk subject with strangers. That's why he is a hero.

DO NOT LET THIS OPPORTUNITY PASS! Right now it isn't tinfoil hattery to talk about encryption. Spread the information in this time window that we have.

Anonymous Anonymous June 17, 2013 1:19 PM  

old white guy says...... the people need to know everything government is doing. today there is no such thing as a secret that will protect us.

Anonymous Roundtine June 17, 2013 1:19 PM  

Has he revealed anything new? What has he done that's so "disastrous?"

I don't think he's revealed anything new if you follow this stuff, there was another NSA whistleblower Binney who said this 6 months ago: Everyone in US under virtual surveillance. To me that is news. I remember about 15 years ago we knew about Echelon that could listen to every call, but it was mainly trained on foreigners. Some people said if you said bomb, President or similar things into a phone, it would begin a recording and then get marked for analysis. But that's a far cry from recording and storing all communications.

The most disastrous thing he's done is caused a PR nightmare for the government and possibly destroyed the reputation of American technology companies.

Anonymous Huey Freeman June 17, 2013 1:19 PM  


Because the government is saying he is lying. And the government always lies. I was certain he was telling the truth when they said he was lying because he said he made $200k and they said this was proof he was lying because his SALARY at his current employer was $122k. But that didn't even CONTRADICT what he said.

Perhaps his bonus was 78k. Perhaps he made $200k at a previous employer... which was his subsequent explanation. But it was never proof that he'd lied about how much money he made as the government tried to claim.

Ok, but what about everything else he said? Why should we believe the other stuff snowden said at face value because the government lied about his salary? Snowden used to work for the government, so suddenly his words should be taken at face value because he no longer works for the government?

Anonymous Godfrey June 17, 2013 1:20 PM  

fight the power

Anonymous FUBAR Nation Ben June 17, 2013 1:23 PM  

There is no fair trials in the US when you have a conviction rate of 99% that puts Adolf Hitler's 90% conviction rate kangaroo courts to shame. Add in the fact that prosecutors can do whatever the hell they want and be immune from facing any sort of accountable.

Anonymous Roundtine June 17, 2013 1:24 PM  

How does he know they destroyed any possibility of a fair trial at home?

If President Obama came out and said George Zimmerman was guilty of murderer, it may well function as a get out of jail free card because Zimmerman's attorneys could claim he cannot get a fair trial. Prosecutors and politicians have blown up big cases by making public statements. When it's local they can move the trial, but when its national it's tough to find an impartial jury.

Anonymous Mr. Pea June 17, 2013 1:24 PM  

Despite Snowdon's revelations, pre-crime is here to stay.

For most AmeriKans, this is nothing more than entertainment... until they eventually get bored and move on to the next shiny object.

Anonymous dh June 17, 2013 1:25 PM  

How does he know they destroyed any possibility of a fair trial at home? how does he know disclosure of secret, criminal, and unconstitutional acts is an unforgivable crime? especially if he hasn't even had a trial yet...

This is what you are going to hang your hat on? Really? The government at all levels of the executive and legislative branch has been literally working overtime to discredit him, and the word "traitor" has been put forth again and again. Compare his treatment to that of Louis Lehner, of the IRS. She refused to resign, and is on paid leave. The evidence of historical mistreatment of whistleblowers is profound and damning.

Is it possible the universities, hospitals, and private businesses he was told to hack were actually legitimate military targets?
No, they can't be. The military is legally prohibited from being used for domestic law enforcement. The NSA enabling legislation and charter prohibits targeting an US person. The only way they wiggle out of this is to claim that sucking up everything is not "targeting". Shameful.

These look like assertion of fact to me. Again, not saying snowden isn't telling the truth, not saying the government isn't lying, I'm just scratching my head wondering why you guys are taking his words at face value.

On the one side, you have someone who sacrificed to get his side of the story out there. The worst case scenario is he is erased by a special operations or drone. The best case is life in a Federal Supermax.

On the other side, you have:

SEN. RON WYDEN (D-Ore.): “This is for you, Director Clapper, again on the surveillance front. And I hope we can do this in just a yes or no answer because I know Senator Feinstein wants to move on. Last summer, the NSA director was at a conference, and he was asked a question about the NSA surveillance of Americans. He replied, and I quote here, ‘The story that we have millions or hundreds of millions of dossiers on people is completely false.’

“The reason I’m asking the question is, having served on the committee now for a dozen years, I don’t really know what a dossier is in this context. So what I wanted to see is if you could give me a yes or no answer to the question, does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?”

Director of National Intelligence JAMES CLAPPER: “No, sir.”
SEN. WYDEN: “It does not?”

DIR. CLAPPER: “Not wittingly. There are cases where they could inadvertently perhaps collect, but not wittingly.”

SEN. WYDEN: “Thank you. I’ll have additional questions to give you in writing on that point, but I thank you for the answer.”

Those are your choices. It's either or.

Anonymous dh June 17, 2013 1:26 PM  

Ok, but what about everything else he said? Why should we believe the other stuff snowden said at face value because the government lied about his salary? Snowden used to work for the government, so suddenly his words should be taken at face value because he no longer works for the government

Until a better source comes along, yes.

Anonymous Roundtine June 17, 2013 1:29 PM  

Clapper *may* not have been lying. A dossier is a file on you. But they don't have a file on you, they just have all your information in the database. It's like India's nuclear weapons program before they went public: have all the nuke parts ready, but not assembled, so you can claim to be a non-nuclear power. In order to create a dossier on you, it requires entering your name or SS# or some identifier into a search query and pulling up all your info.

Anonymous FUBAR Nation Ben June 17, 2013 1:29 PM  

I'm not taking anything Snowden says as the gospel truth. I'm just considering the fact that there isn't any reason so far to doubt his allegations and the documentation he's presented to the world.

It's like when the mafia ran Chicago in the 20's and a hitman decided to quit due to suddenly feeling bad about all the people he's killed, and entered witness protection. There would be no reason to doubt what he's saying because he could have stayed in the mafia, made don someday, and literally sit on piles of cash. Snowden threw away everything. What's he going to get out of it? A bullet through the head from the USG mafia?

Anonymous Stilicho June 17, 2013 1:29 PM  

This just keeps getting more hilarious. Various Congresscritters (Blue and Red) along with Obama administration officials and proxies, and now, even Dick Cheney, are running about alternately claiming that Snowden is lying, that Snowden is a traitor who has revealed critical national security information and endangered American lives, and that Snowden has not revealed anything that was not already common knowledge and/or in the public domain.

Why vote? For the lulz.

Anonymous Stilicho June 17, 2013 1:36 PM  

Predictably enough, this sort of thing (NSA scandal, IRS scandal, enemies lists/press scandal, Fast and Furious, etc.) is what happens when you rely upon government to control the people.

Anonymous RobertExMachina June 17, 2013 1:37 PM  

"DO NOT LET THIS OPPORTUNITY PASS! Right now it isn't tinfoil hattery to talk about encryption. Spread the information in this time window that we have."

Markku, I was researching TOR and PGP about two weeks before this happened. Can you suggest some resources for the average user?

Blogger IM2L844 June 17, 2013 1:37 PM  

so suddenly his words should be taken at face value because he no longer works for the government?

No. You should assign them a weight you are personally comfortable with just the same as everyone else. Ignore them completely if you are comfortable with that. Or, regard them in the context of history and value them accordingly. Either way, it's up to you.

Blogger Markku June 17, 2013 1:41 PM  

Nope, sorry. I'm not sure what's easy to use out there. I tend to go for the nerdy. I can do research if necessary, but I'm guessing there are folks here who already have the answer.

And remember, don't fall for the argument "if you can't have 100% security, then it's the same as not having any at all, and you should just browse as always". No, the object is to make NSA's life as difficult as possible. Just for the cause of human liberty.

Anonymous dh June 17, 2013 1:42 PM  

Clapper *may* not have been lying. A dossier is a file on you. But they don't have a file on you, they just have all your information in the database. It's like India's nuclear weapons program before they went public: have all the nuke parts ready, but not assembled, so you can claim to be a non-nuclear power. In order to create a dossier on you, it requires entering your name or SS# or some identifier into a search query and pulling up all your info.

Right, he wasn't technically lying, in that they haven't created a paper record printed out with your name on it.

"Sen. Wyden. It is: are you spying on million of Americans?
Clapper: No.
Sen. Wyden: Thanks."

There is no reason why Clapper couldn't have said, "well we don't have millions of dossiers, but we collect billions of records and have them at our disposal to search when needed." Except that would be transparent. Something that the government does not want.

Anonymous Sigyn June 17, 2013 1:53 PM  

Ok, but what about everything else he said? Why should we believe the other stuff snowden said at face value because the government lied about his salary?

Let me ask you a question:

If everything Snowden showed and told was a lie, why is the Department of Justice investigating so they can file charges against him? If he is just lying, why is the government in an uproar and accusing him of treason left and right?

To me, it's not what Snowden's saying, so much as how the accused, the government, is responding.

Anonymous Roundtine June 17, 2013 1:54 PM  

What about online programs such as Hushmail? Does that work?

The big issue I see is finding a simply solution for all the idiots out there, because MPAI and I include myself. For instance, if you use a VPN for security and you go to a website using the VPN, and then go back when you're not on the VPN, you just identified your computer. If there's a security lapse anywhere in the chain, it can be exploited.

Blogger Markku June 17, 2013 2:00 PM  

If there's a security lapse anywhere in the chain, it can be exploited. Sure, but it has to be in that one particular place, instead of just anywhere along the line. VERY much harder for the NSA. They have to already have very active interest in you to go to such lengths, and if they do, well, that time is away from snooping on someone else.

Blogger Markku June 17, 2013 2:08 PM  

It is quite like those goddamned traitor hippies saying that Finland shouldn't have a conscript army because Russia could take us if they wanted, army or not.

Fuck you traitor hippies, the army is there to put a high price tag on such an action and thereby discourage that choice.

Anonymous civilServant June 17, 2013 2:08 PM  

leaving a comfortable and western lifestyle behind, probably forever ...

... perhaps to assume an even more comfortable eastern lifestyle? Recall Benedict Arnold and his rewards for turning back to the Crown.

Has he revealed anything new? What has he done that's so "disastrous?"

Before it was all mere guessing and assumption with most people feeling that they themselves would be of no interest to the government even if such capabilities existed. Now it is (authoritatively?) confirmed and it seems that everyone everywhere without exception or cause is being tracked and surveyed. This is a step-change in perception.

Anonymous civilServant June 17, 2013 2:11 PM  

Snowden used to work for the government, so suddenly his words should be taken at face value because he no longer works for the government

Until a better source comes along, yes.


Perhaps one should rephrase the question. Who says he is not working for a government?

Blogger Markku June 17, 2013 2:13 PM  

NB: I'm using "traitor" in a metaphorical, not legal (and just a wee bit humoristic) sense. Holding an opinion is never being a real traitor.

Anonymous Daniel June 17, 2013 2:30 PM  

Perhaps one should rephrase the question. Who says he is not working for a government?

Too competent, no Manchurian taint.

Anonymous trev006 June 17, 2013 2:32 PM  

Oh dearie me, lookit the troll go. Huey Freeman from The Boondocks would be spinning in his grave, if he was dead. The hospitals were legitimate military targets? LOLOLOLOL, you're not even trying now. That type of bullshit may play on CNN, but no one with a brain in their head is going to believe it. The government is full of liars as what's left of a free media cracks their plans wide open, and desperate spin is all they- and you- have to offer.

I must say, I'm surprised at how fast the true face of the Ruling Class is revealing itself. Of course DiFi wants Gun Control- she knows that she needs some kind of distraction to enact her third rate fascism, right?

Anonymous Noah B. June 17, 2013 2:34 PM  

"It is quite like those goddamned traitor hippies saying that Finland shouldn't have a conscript army because Russia could take us if they wanted, army or not."

Ah yes, the "just give them what they want" school of defense: spineless, morally bankrupt scum who believe that nothing is worth fighting for.

Anonymous sprach von Teufelhunden June 17, 2013 2:35 PM  

Assange’s job was to divert us from 9/11, cheerlead for Israel and offer timely diversions whenever real news, real “sins” got too close. My guess is we have more of the same. Recent news seems to prove me right though I don’t enjoy it.

Snowden claims to know where all the bodies are buried. Okay, humor us Snowden. Tell ALL the truth about 9/11. If you have the kind of access, you claim to have, then spill it! Every bit of it...

Snowden’s own words:

“I had access to the full rosters of everyone working at the NSA, the entire intelligence community, and undercover assets all over the world. The locations of every station, we have what their missions are and so forth. If I had just wanted to harm the US? You could shut down the surveillance system in an afternoon.”
[1]

Then, and only then will I call you a hero of the American people, and the Free World at Large...

It is not that hard. Just do it!

Roy Tov did. He's former IDF, with nuclear clearance. Living in refuge in Bolivia. Already targeted for assassination. Snowden, why don't you go join him? Speak with one voice. Might learn some things from Roy...



---------
[1] So, tell us the truth about Bin Laden. What's this about Zero Dark 30, Argo, etc. [Seriously Snowden, you more than Barbara Honegger?] Tell us about Sherut haBitachon haKlali (aka Shin Bet), in contrast with MOSSAD.

Anonymous RedJack June 17, 2013 2:35 PM  

Sigyn

Let me ask you a question:

If everything Snowden showed and told was a lie, why is the Department of Justice investigating so they can file charges against him? If he is just lying, why is the government in an uproar and accusing him of treason left and right?

To me, it's not what Snowden's saying, so much as how the accused, the government, is responding.


Nailed it. That is why I tend to believe him.
OT: Anyone else notice that DH is starting to act like one of the Ilk?

Blogger RobertT June 17, 2013 2:41 PM  

Maybe it's time to start thinking about what we're going to end up with after the collapse.

Anonymous toothy June 17, 2013 2:45 PM  

"OT: Anyone else notice that DH is starting to act like one of the Ilk?"

Yes, actually. I was just thinking about that today.

And for Markku:

Hippies

Blogger IM2L844 June 17, 2013 2:48 PM  

OT: Anyone else notice that DH is starting to act like one of the Ilk?

I'm still wet behind the ears and don't consider myself a full fledged member of the Ilk, but I have notice that it didn't take dh long to learn to pay closer attention to what is actually being said and keep knee jerk reactions in check. Something I haven't quite mastered yet.

Blogger Markku June 17, 2013 2:51 PM  

Vermont facts:

White persons, percent, 2011 (a) 95.5%
Black persons, percent, 2011 (a) 1.1%

I completely understand how dh can be a leftist. I even sympathize somewhat.

Anonymous the bandit June 17, 2013 3:09 PM  

Clapper *may* not have been lying. A dossier is a file on you. But they don't have a file on you, they just have all your information in the database.

Let's go back to that question Clapper answered, as presented by dh, shall we?

...does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?

Anonymous the bandit June 17, 2013 3:10 PM  

The question was clearly phrased to rule out the "but the information is not in a dossier" excuse, so to use it to excuse the lie is untenable.

Anonymous civilServant June 17, 2013 3:11 PM  

Maybe it's time to start thinking about what we're going to end up with after the collapse.

Oh there are many who are well beyond thought and well into action regarding any aftermath.

Anonymous Stilicho June 17, 2013 3:15 PM  

OT: Anyone else notice that DH is starting to act like one of the Ilk?

Could be attributable to a number of things:
1) Nate's white knighting is working...
2) it's just part of the long slog through the Ilk...
3) he finally grokked Animal Farm...
4) reality intruded and he realized that you simply cannot trust government to control the people (not even those who demonstrably need control)...
5) he was always ideologically closer to Grinder than he realized...or
6) it's just the maple syrup talking...

Anonymous Noah B. June 17, 2013 3:18 PM  

I'd bet against #6. Have you seen maple syrup prices lately (the real stuff)?

Anonymous Stilicho June 17, 2013 3:21 PM  

I'd bet against #6. Have you seen maple syrup prices lately (the real stuff)?

Fair enough...
New # 6) we are witnessing the r/K selection theory in action as the K traits are pushed to to forefront and drive behavior more as the environment changes to one that favors K selected traits...

Anonymous praetorian June 17, 2013 3:25 PM  

@Huey Freeman

Evidence for: if he were lying, why would the power elite be branding him a traitor and openly hinting at killing him?

Evidence for: the government has been shown, again and again, to lie about its own activities. Consider: http://reason.com/blog/2013/06/13/no-spy-should-have-that-big-a-tell-daily

Evidence for: it does not appear that Snowden is going to live much longer, or comfortably, when both were certainly an easy option for him.

Evidence for: experience with the real world suggests that govt. is filled with mostly morons, with varying levels of morality and practical competence, as well as a large set of sociopaths and a much smaller set of heros. In organizations like the NSA, the sociopaths will tend towards the top and the heros will typically leave, with a once in a decade flame-out like this. Seems due.

Cheers,
prat

Anonymous DT June 17, 2013 3:34 PM  

The best argument against the NSA is that they are staffed by people like Snowden. "Infilitrate" is not what is required. Just go apply to be a security guard, show some aptitude, and in 5 years you'll be given the keys to the surveillance state.

Reminds me of a Simpsons episode where Mr. Burns goes through insane security with multiple doors to get to some secret room...and on the other side of that room there's a broken screen door with a stray cat walking in.

Anonymous DT June 17, 2013 3:38 PM  

What would really put a stop to this is if some hacker group cracked the NSA's network and started leaking information they've collected on politicians.

We can only hope that the next Snowden decides to post some technical details on 4chan instead of going public.

Anonymous Stilicho June 17, 2013 3:57 PM  

What would really put a stop to this is if some hacker group cracked the NSA's network and started leaking information they've collected on politicians.

It is hardly a secret that the FBI (J. Edgar Hoover, Director for life) collected everything they could about politicians, Washington insiders, etc. and used the info to blackmail them in various ways, yet the same people who accept this without question, refuse to consider the possibility that another (or all) alphabet agencies do something similar. Like a gold-backed currency, such things must be barbarous relics from the long, long ago dark ages of the '70's...back before modern inventions like television, telephones, airplanes, automobiles, nuclear weapons, rule-of-law, indoor plumbing, and electricity changed the world forever...

Blogger Markku June 17, 2013 3:58 PM  

Conspiracies aren't real lolzlolzlolzlolz if they were someone would leak it lolzlolzlolz

...

OMG a Chinese spy! A Chinese spy! Traitor, treasonous drone fodder!

Anonymous dh June 17, 2013 4:08 PM  

1) Nate's white knighting is working...
2) it's just part of the long slog through the Ilk...
3) he finally grokked Animal Farm...
4) reality intruded and he realized that you simply cannot trust government to control the people (not even those who demonstrably need control)...
5) he was always ideologically closer to Grinder than he realized...or
6) it's just the maple syrup talking...


Well, I do think that I have a strong libertarian bent. People assume that leftists are all the same variety, and that we really think that the government is the only solution to problems. I don't think, never have. The nutshell of the ideology from my point of view is that even if I wanted to, which at times I do, I don't believe in the biblical or any other God, or his other incarnations (Jesus, the holy spirit). I believe that most people are idiots, and cannot be trusted with self-governance. I believe that paternalism isn't inherently evil, but it sure gets that way fast.

Leftists in my vein distrust government. I have been a Greenwald fan for a long time because he ruthlessly exposes the liberal traitors who were against Bush's surveillance state, but strongly support Obama's. Pelosi is the worst in this regard. Obama himself strong second.

Anonymous hardscrabble farmer June 17, 2013 4:18 PM  

You guys seem to believe every single word coming out of snowdens mouth without asking for a shred of evidence or proof."

If the response of the FedGov and it's MSM mouthpieces had been "he's full of shit there's no such thing." instead of "He's a traitor." then I'd be more likely to disbelieve him.

That didn't happen. In fact the reaction to Snowden confirms his assertions rather than disproves them.

BTW, when did Eric Snowden become Edward Snowden?

And at $60 a gallon for maple syrup, you're still getting it cheap.

Anonymous dh June 17, 2013 4:22 PM  

Maple syrup has excellent energy density, about 50,000 calories per gallon.

Anonymous Burt June 17, 2013 4:29 PM  

What is the true definition of left and right? Is it Far left = total government control and far right = anarchy? Or, is it Far left = total atheist government control and Far right = total religious government control?

Anonymous dh June 17, 2013 4:36 PM  

I don't know about right, but an absolute unrestrained leftist government is a probably an elite kleptocracy police state, with no distinction between big business and government, in which private property is non-existent or minimal, and atheism or nihilist tendancies are enforced by violence. The state is above all, and is the only entity that has any potency.

Blogger Markku June 17, 2013 4:36 PM  

I'd say that the extreme left is that everything is commonly owned. And since it is extremely difficult to get everybody's agreement on what should be done with it at all times, it is in practice controlled by an elite that has super duper seriously the best interests of the common man at heart.

Extreme right is that everything is privately owned, apart from those things of which there is an explicit contract between specific individuals (signed by them all) that they share ownership of it according to rules defined in the contract.

Blogger SDH June 17, 2013 4:37 PM  

@dh Well, I do think that I have a strong libertarian bent. People assume that leftists are all the same variety...

Do you believe the government should tax the shit out of the most productive and transfer that to the least productive? After reading your posts I'm having a hard time figuring out why you call yourself a leftist.

Blogger IM2L844 June 17, 2013 4:38 PM  

I don't believe in the biblical or any other God, or his other incarnations (Jesus, the holy spirit).

That's fixable.

Anonymous Jake June 17, 2013 4:38 PM  

What is the true definition of left and right? Is it Far left = total government control and far right = anarchy? Or, is it Far left = total atheist government control and Far right = total religious government control?

At the point where you start asking questions like this you should also be realizing that left-right is a false paradigm. The answer is that it depends on who's saying it and how they define the terms, I just try to avoid terms like "left" and "right" as much as possible except when the discussion is general enough that their imprecision is not a problem.

There is no way to adequately describe something as multidimensional as political views on a 1-dimensional scale. "Left and Right" makes no more sense than saying "on a scale of -5 to 5, what is the shape of that statue".

Blogger Markku June 17, 2013 4:40 PM  

I think there IS a scale.

Should a Mosque be allowed to own nukes?

Extreme right: Yes.
Moderate right: No.

Anonymous dh June 17, 2013 4:47 PM  

Do you believe the government should tax the shit out of the most productive and transfer that to the least productive? After reading your posts I'm having a hard time figuring out why you call yourself a leftist.
I believe there should be a strong social safety net that is funded by taxes, collected by violence, if necessary. The exact living standards and contents of the safety net is not something I feel that strongly about, other than I would prefer not to live in a third-world hell hole with people dying in the streets and starving during the winter.

Anonymous dh June 17, 2013 4:49 PM  

One more thing is that I do believe that the lesser of two "evils" is still less evil. That's why I usually vote Democratic in national elections. Obama vs. Romney? Very little real difference. Obama did and has ended the US's torture regime, Romney promised to revitalize it. So for me, that's less evil, and I say thats better than nothing. It's cynical but also realistic.

Anonymous Burt June 17, 2013 4:50 PM  

Thanks Jake and Markku. I agree with Jake in that it depends on who you are talking too. So many consider the Third Reich as right wing and now, anyone who holds to the basic principles laid out in the US Constitution. Just not sure why dh would want to classify himself as a leftist.

Blogger Markku June 17, 2013 4:51 PM  

Just not sure why dh would want to classify himself as a leftist.

As I've said before, I'd say dh is a national socialist. It's just that there was that one dude who ruined the name for us.

Anonymous hausfrau June 17, 2013 4:52 PM  

I can't help but smile at how the media get absolutely giddy over his highschool dropout status. Observe how clearly he expresses his thoughts and justifies his actions. Public schooling doesn't produce that kind of clarity of expression. He probably dropped out because he was bored. His parent should be proud, if still a bit devastated.

Blogger Markku June 17, 2013 4:55 PM  

Hmm. There was a comment from Hausfrau, and then it was gone a few seconds later for no sensical reason. This problem doesn't seem to be isolated to Anonagain.

Blogger SDH June 17, 2013 4:56 PM  

@dh You're neither Republican nor Democrat. You're a Canadian...I did initially think you might be my brother.

Anonymous Burt June 17, 2013 4:56 PM  

I'm curious, dh, You seem to have a healthy distrust of government but then you believe in a strong enforced safety net which implies the need for a large government. Wouldn't it be more productive if we encouraged a society based on Christian principles (not enforced Christianity) where the truly needy are taken care of by the truly loving? Better than having a government exacerbate the problem while faking it.

Anonymous dh June 17, 2013 4:57 PM  

As I've said before, I'd say dh is a national socialist. It's just that there was that one dude who ruined the name for us.

Never saw it before, but I am not entirely ready to say you are wrong. I think many leftists have only a few disagreements with the original platform.

It's hard to judge historical political movements by the platform stated. The stated platform is not closely related to the ruling policies and actions.

Anonymous dh June 17, 2013 4:58 PM  

I'm curious, dh, You seem to have a healthy distrust of government but then you believe in a strong enforced safety net which implies the need for a large government. Wouldn't it be more productive if we encouraged a society based on Christian principles (not enforced Christianity) where the truly needy are taken care of by the truly loving? Better than having a government exacerbate the problem while faking it.
I think it would be better, yes.

Anonymous dh June 17, 2013 4:59 PM  

enough enough. off topic.

Let's just say I get a huge hardon whenever anyone nails Cheney like Snowden did. I can't wait to watch the news tonight, there won't be a line producer with his hand in Obama's pocket who won't love to bring up Cheney and read that quote.

Anonymous DT June 17, 2013 5:00 PM  

Obama did and has ended the US's torture regime,

Only if you:

A) Believe a government that always lies. And...

B) Don't count solitary confinement or 40 hour no sleep interrogation sessions as "torture."

Then yeah, I guess so.

Anonymous Porky June 17, 2013 5:02 PM  

Liking this dude more and more every time he opens his mouth.

Anonymous hausfrau June 17, 2013 5:07 PM  

If I weren't married, I'd totally want to have little dissident babies with him.

Anonymous Porky June 17, 2013 5:13 PM  

He is a traitor. God bless him.

Anonymous Anonagain June 17, 2013 5:14 PM  

This problem doesn't seem to be isolated to Anonagain.

Haven't experienced mysteriously vanishing comments for a few days now. All's well - for now.

Anonymous Godfrey June 17, 2013 5:14 PM  


Power to the people.

Anonymous dh June 17, 2013 5:16 PM  


A) Believe a government that always lies. And...

B) Don't count solitary confinement or 40 hour no sleep interrogation sessions as "torture."


All true. So, this is something that I feel strongly about. Given the choice between a person who claims to want to expand the amount of torture we do, and a person who claims to want to reduce the amount of torture we do, I choose the later. Regardless of what is or does happen, I'd prefer the person who says he wants less than the person who says he wants more.

A very small amount less evil. I know that 90%+ of the people here would rather not vote, or vote third party or vote protest vote. I have learned to respect that.

Blogger Markku June 17, 2013 5:17 PM  

Porky: Heh, I remember there was this quiz, back when quizzes were popular, about what circle of Dante's Inferno (if any, but that wasn't likely) you'd end up in. One of the last questions was "would you ever commit treason?"

"Yes."

...

...wait a minute, I know what this is about.

Surprisingly, it still put me in Limbo, and not in the lowest circle.

Anonymous Stilicho June 17, 2013 5:17 PM  

I'd say dh is a national socialist.

...hence my comment about Grinder (#5)

Never saw it before, but I am not entirely ready to say you are wrong. I think many leftists have only a few disagreements with the original platform.

...confirmation, of a sort


Anonymous dh June 17, 2013 5:19 PM  

Stilicho--

I would have to think on it. I am not particularly found of straight out eugenics. I am more than happy to have the lower classes seperate, abort, and drink themselves into irrelevance.

Saying I am a Nazi is unlikely to cause me to go off and cry.

Anonymous Porky June 17, 2013 5:27 PM  

dh: "One more thing is that I do believe that the lesser of two "evils" is still less evil. That's why I usually vote Democratic in national elections."

Only a true connoisseur could so accurately tell one flavor of shit from another.

Anonymous Sigyn June 17, 2013 5:30 PM  

Guys.

HEY, GUYS.

Remember the magic words "Fifth Amendment" when the cops stop you, or else they'll be talking about your silence when you go to trial.

Anonymous Stilicho June 17, 2013 5:31 PM  

Saying I am a Nazi is unlikely to cause me to go off and cry.

That's not the point.

I am not particularly found of straight out eugenics. I am more than happy to have the lower classes seperate, abort, and drink themselves into irrelevance.

Paid for by you and any other self-supporting member of society via your social safety net. Now, you may consider it money well spent, but the problem is, such a safety net ensures perpetuation of a permanent underclass engaging in those behaviors.

Anonymous Porky June 17, 2013 5:34 PM  

dh: "I am more than happy to have the lower classes seperate, abort, and drink themselves into irrelevance."

Yup. That's pretty much the democratic party's "get out the vote" strategy.

Anonymous Stilicho June 17, 2013 5:36 PM  

Sigyn, does your husband do contract work???

Blogger tz June 17, 2013 5:44 PM  

There is at least on man of honor. Diogenes, you may end your quest.

It is easy to be honest when it doesn't matter, or the cost is low. Perhaps the phrase "Living Sacrifice" is now better understood.

Anonymous Loki of Asgard June 17, 2013 5:49 PM  

Sigyn, does your husband do contract work???

What are you attempting to bribe me to do now?

Anonymous Jack Amok June 17, 2013 5:51 PM  

Hong Kong was a good move. It has the backing of the Chinese government plus the common law of Britain.

Not to mention that Hong Kong is far too densly populated, and by too many nationalities, to try a drone strike without killing a large number of innocent civilians from the nations you least want a diplomatic incident with.

Not that the Obama administartion hasn't shown a near-unbelievalble level of diplomatic stupidity, but still, one assumes there is a bottom somewhere.


Maybe it's time to start thinking about what we're going to end up with after the collapse.

Past time. We've been playing for what comes next since at least 2008.



What is the true definition of left and right? Is it Far left = total government control and far right = anarchy? Or, is it Far left = total atheist government control and Far right = total religious government control?

It's just a difference of opinion about which group of control freaks should be in control. Or, in ilk-speak, who gets to be Chief Rabbit of the Warren.

Non-rabbits are currently not strongly represented in either wing. Considering that non-rabbits are the ones who make things fly, that might be why we're in a nose dive.

But increasingly, I'm coming to the conclusion that we do need a bimodal society. We need a society that rewards non-rabbits (because that's the only sort of society that generates prosperity, and non-rabbits can be damned dangerous when they get pissed off), and we need a society where rabbits can feel comfortable (because I do believe it is psychological torture to make them try to live like non-rabbits). The critical thing is making sure each individual is free to chose where he lives.

Anonymous Salt June 17, 2013 6:01 PM  

@Sigyn

"Qui tacet consentire"; silence is assent.

Sir Thomas More used such as defense when asked his position on King Henry's marriage to Ann. He kept silent and stated that his silence must be legally construed as assent.

Thus one must invoke the 5th amendment right to quash that.

Anonymous WaterBoy June 17, 2013 6:02 PM  

dh: "I don't think, never have."

Err...ummm...you appear to have left out a word, here, yes? Perhaps "that" after "think"?

Otherwise, this is going to be just too easy to quotemine later.

Anonymous realmatt June 17, 2013 6:04 PM  

This is a great man.

Anonymous realmatt June 17, 2013 6:07 PM  

Granted, the government is known to lie, but that still begs the question as to why you guys seem to accept snowdens words at face value.

Why are we accepting the claim that the government is using the most up to date technology to gain more power, as it has done in the past, as every single government ever in the history of man has ever done?

Only a fool wouldn't. And if it is all lies, only a fool would go about believing what the government says instead of assuming the absolute worst.

Blogger Scott June 17, 2013 6:31 PM  

Nah. This is nothing more than a distraction from the real damning news stories that broke over that last couple of months (Benghazi, AP, IRS). EVERYBODY already assumed the NSA was monitoring big service provider servers. No one cares about that; the information isn't new, it's not even the story as much as Snowden himself is the story. Wake up.

Anonymous DT June 17, 2013 6:59 PM  

Remember the magic words "Fifth Amendment" when the cops stop you, or else they'll be talking about your silence when you go to trial.

Wow. Just...wow.

And they call Snowden a traitor...

Blogger Scott June 17, 2013 7:03 PM  

dh, your pov reflects the typical nonsensical liberal mindset. You voted for Obama bc he would end torture. Think of the number of people we "tortured" each year, now think about the number of horrific deaths due to our complete military extraction from Iraq, think about the number of people suffering in our own country because they are imprisoned by the welfare culture Obama and his ilk promote. The list of horrors is endless and the number of people affected is several hundreds of multiples more than your little mind's measure of torture victims. What was it you were saying about lesser evils?

Anonymous liljoe June 17, 2013 7:22 PM  

"I believe there should be a strong social safety net that is funded by taxes, collected by violence, if necessary. The exact living standards and contents of the safety net is not something I feel that strongly about, other than I would prefer not to live in a third-world hell hole with people dying in the streets and starving during the winter."

Recommended reading for dh: The Road to Serfdom by Hayek. Pretty much destroys this idea regarding State as safety net and other logical fails of the left.

Anonymous Godfrey June 17, 2013 7:25 PM  

@Scott June 17, 2013 7:03 PM "dh, ... Obama bc he would end torture.... What was it you were saying about lesser evils?"


Obama is a stooge. He's a front man. He runs nothing. He is just a pitchman for the establishment. He's the elite's hand picked version of Mr. Whipple or the Empire Carpet Man.

The fact that wealthy elites selected him only serves to reveal their pathetic and complete incompetence.

Anonymous Godfrey June 17, 2013 7:30 PM  

"I believe there should be a strong social safety net that is funded by taxes, collected by violence, if necessary. The exact living standards and contents of the safety net is not something I feel that strongly about, other than I would prefer not to live in a third-world hell hole with people dying in the streets and starving during the winter."


Been there, done that. IT FAILED. Have you been in the streets recently? Are you a rich boy or what? Do you live in a bubble?

THE WELFARE STATE HAS FAILED! IT IS OBVIOUS!

You had your chance. You failed fantastic fashion.


Anonymous Wanderer June 17, 2013 7:48 PM  

THE WELFARE STATE HAS FAILED! IT IS OBVIOUS!

Surely not! It is doing a very good job of keeping certain people in power and we are paying for it.

Anonymous Wanderer June 17, 2013 7:57 PM  

Your right to remain silent just got more complicated, and it will require potential criminals to be more informed about their protections and the linguistic details on how to invoke them.

Prosecutor: "When the officer said to defendant 'So, you think XXX are inferior, do you?' the defendant remained silent." He is clearly a racist and must be sent to the gas chamber.

Blogger cmate June 17, 2013 8:18 PM  

"How does he know they destroyed any possibility of a fair trial at home? how does he know disclosure of secret, criminal, and unconstitutional acts is an unforgivable crime? especially if he hasn't even had a trial yet..."

He watches the news?

Blogger redlegben June 17, 2013 9:11 PM  

Markku is right about dh. Anybody that lives in a 95+% white European population is leftist/national socialist due to lack of exposure to vibrancy. Once they experience it up close and personal, it becomes more Nazi/Hitler-like. Until that point, they accuse practical people that believe in separation of cultures of being the Nazis that the left will become.

Anonymous getTheTinFoilOut June 17, 2013 9:19 PM  

This doesn't even rise to the level of evil that google does every single day, openly, by keeping "dossiers" on every one of its users to better advertise to them. Why can't libertarians just move to antartica or something.

Anonymous zen0 June 17, 2013 9:38 PM  

Scott alerts the masses: Nah. This is nothing more than a distraction from the real damning news stories that broke over that last couple of months (Benghazi, AP, IRS). EVERYBODY already assumed the NSA was monitoring big service provider servers. No one cares about that; the information isn't new, it's not even the story as much as Snowden himself is the story. Wake up.

I don't think this is separate from Benghazi. I think the CIA is getting some revenge and sending a message to Obama.
There is a thread of evidence that could show he was somewhat complicit in the attempt to kidnap the diplomat that was killed in order to have a hostage to trade for the Blind Sheik.

The president of Egypt(Morsi)wants the Blind Sheik released.
Shortly after he stated this publicly, the seige on the embassy was enacted. There is a recording of some of the attackers saying "don't shoot, we are from Morsi".

When the diplomat was successfully kidnapped, after a stand-down order from the White House, everything was sort of ok (except for some dead U.S. soldiers, but there are more where they came from) until one of the Al-Quaida hirelings gave him a hot shot instead of a sleep shot.

Apparently, the rookie terrorist was let go after that.

I love it when a plan DOES NOT come together.

Anonymous A Visitor June 17, 2013 10:16 PM  

Should a Mosque be allowed to own nukes?

No, they're Muslims. I don't trust Muslims.

Good on Snowden for having the guts to do a "live" interview (as live can be without letting the NSA just waltz to your closest node). Man has guts and my admiration!

Anonymous AdognamedOp June 17, 2013 10:16 PM  

Scott,
"Nah. This is nothing more than a distraction from the real damning news stories that broke over that last couple of months (Benghazi, AP, IRS)."

Yep. MPAI, but those in the know can just as easily be mislead.
The Snowden revelations will not put a dent in the leftist hives hold on power. The spin from the MSM is Snowden vs the NSA. No connection to the Obama administration, no outrage over civil liberties violations., no protest marches to report on. None of the usual outrage.
Drones gonna drone..they know this,.. nothing outside the hive!
The actions of the IRS gestapo directly affected the last Presidential election. They went for the wallet.
At this point, shit is snowballing so fast that even the most damning violation of human rights by gov't can be layered over.

Anonymous Lana June 17, 2013 10:29 PM  

I still read conservative sites occasionally, just to see if they are still deluded and/or lying. They are, which just makes me wish I'd seen the light in 2000 instead of 2005.

The talking points are all the same. They laugh about the Democrat talking points, but they have their own and they all routinely sing from the hymnal.

Why did he go to Hong Kong? That's so suspicious! He didn't graduate from high school, let alone college. He must be lying! He doesn't look like special forces or intelligence, so he's just a flunky who couldn't actually know anything. National security is at stake. *cue Howard Dean scream* And this latest that has graced the comments here...It's a distraction from the real deal. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

It would be funny, except these people are the ones who are supposed to have read and understood the Constitution. Since they are the majority in both parties, we couldn't be more screwed.

Anonymous Mr. Pea June 17, 2013 11:56 PM  

The fact that wealthy elites selected him only serves to reveal their pathetic and complete incompetence.

Right.

Yet... here we are.

What are you going to do about it?

The only hope that people hang on to, is the hope that it all implodes on itself. That there will be an orgy of violence, and you hope your side prevails.

Well, lets hope your hope is not deferred.

Otherwise, imagine where your children will be.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza June 18, 2013 1:51 AM  

Wait and see

Anonymous Eric C June 18, 2013 7:35 AM  

"Obama did and has ended the US's torture regime"- dh

Uh... Obama and Rendition


Anonymous dh June 18, 2013 8:07 AM  

Think of the number of people we "tortured" each year, now think about the number of horrific deaths due to our complete military extraction from Iraq, think about the number of people suffering in our own country because they are imprisoned by the welfare culture Obama and his ilk promote. The list of horrors is endless and the number of people affected is several hundreds of multiples more than your little mind's measure of torture victims. What was it you were saying about lesser evils?

It's still less evil. You are not going to cure all the "evil" at once. I will gladly accept curing the "evil" (and by evil, I mean, negative outcomes) one at a time, instead of none at a time.

Anonymous dh June 18, 2013 8:14 AM  

Eric--

There isn't anything in that piece that has anything to do with extraordinary rendition. It has lots of other bad stuff, but extraordinary rendition by the US is not one. The one case they gave was rendering someone from Afghanistan to the US for criminal charges in US court.

Still many things that are "Evil" in that piece though.

Anonymous dh June 18, 2013 8:15 AM  

Recommended reading for dh: The Road to Serfdom by Hayek. Pretty much destroys this idea regarding State as safety net and other logical fails of the left.

Thanks, ordered.

Blogger Holden June 18, 2013 10:40 AM  

Patriot? Maybe, he could be playing a deeper game than you know and the game can evolve driven by ego and generous offers of lucre. It is also possible he did the right thing for the wrong reasons. We have only his testimony and consistent public actions to go on so the conclusion is logical but it is still induction (complete with the induction's uncertainty). I don't think James Jesus Angleton would have arrived so quickly at your conclusion.

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