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Wednesday, June 05, 2013

Mailvox: writing back to a young female engineer

AA inquires concerning some inexplicable views that she finds both contradictory and insulting:
Dear Sir,

I don't think you'll answer me, or read my message... But this is worth a try. I will try very hard to keep polite about all this. It will be difficult, but I'll try.

See, I'm a young woman. I'm currently 20 years old and a student in environmental engineering in one of the best engineering schools in the world. I got in fair and square. I didn't get a special grant for being female or any favors. I have to work my butt off to get good grades in fluid mechanics, calculus, environmental chemistry...

I have had the opportunity to read some of the posts you've written in your blog and I feel very insulted by them. What happened to you that made your brain go this wrong? How can you claim that women's rights are wrong? You defend forbidding abortion by claiming unborn children of rape merit all "the legal protections and rights afforded all other human beings", yet claim that women shouldn't have those same rights because we "ruin everything"?

I am working hard to be an engineer. My goal in life isn't to get married or to stay at home and take care of the children. I am not here on this planet to serve a man and raise his children. I have my own goals and my own motivations.

I would continue, but I have finals to prepare and I've lost enough of my time on you already.

I would wish you a nice day, but it would be a lie.
Dear AA,

First of all, as a young woman studying engineering, you have very likely been granted special favors whether you know it or not.  All those programs designed to encourage young women like you to pursue a career in engineering exist for a reason.  And the reason is that most women just don't enjoy engineering the way men do.  You're obviously smart, you can do the schoolwork, but it is unlikely that you will want to do the real thing for very long.  Assuming you don't drop out in favor of an easier discipline before you graduate, the probabilities indicate that you won't spend much time actually working as an engineer; you'll soon be moved into some sort of management or marketing position.  Whether you have been told as much or not, that is the conventional path for smart, educated women like you in the corporate world.

There is no shame in that.  I started out in engineering myself.  I had the ability, but not the aptitude, and quickly switched to a field I vastly preferred.  If you're smart enough, you'll likely figure that out before long. Whatever you do, don't waste your life doing something you don't really enjoy simply because you are capable of doing it.  Remember that actual engineering is very, very different than studying engineering, and being very good at the latter is not necessarily indicative of real interest in the former.

Now I'm going to teach you a hard, but very important lesson.  You see, I don't care you how feel.  I really don't.  More importantly, neither does anyone else.  Only about 200 people on a planet of 7 billion actually care about your feelings, and that's if you're lucky.  The sooner you grasp this lesson, the better off you will be.  And since almost no one gives a damn what you do, say, think, or feel, appealing to your feelings when you encounter differences of opinion is not only illogical, but useless.

What happened to me to make my brain go this wrong?  The short answer is: living life with my eyes open.  Keep in mind that I'm more intelligent than you are.  The fact that you can't understand the way I think doesn't make my brain wrong, it merely means you aren't keeping up.  But more important is the fact that I'm considerably more experienced than you are.  I've had three decades to observe the differences between all those school lessons about valuing equality, diversity, and vibrancy and the way human beings actually behave.  Equality is a myth; it doesn't exist anymore than fairies and unicorns do.  As for women's rights, well, a young woman as intelligent as you should be able to handle the math that dictates what happens to a society when an insufficient number of young women marry and have children.  Since women's rights are very strongly correlated with demographic decline, they are not sustainable and are, in fact, societally deleterious.  They are not so much wrong as fatal when viewed from the macro perspective.

I do believe women should have the same legal rights and protections afforded to unborn children.  There is no contradiction there.  You see, I don't believe that unborn children should be given the right to vote or permitted to murder other unborn children either.

I understand you have your own goals.  That's fine. The problem is that women are not only valuable to society, they are invaluable.  They are necessary. The one and only thing both society and the human race actually need from you is for you to marry and raise children.  If you're not going to do that, then it really doesn't matter if you're going to become a human resources manager with an engineering degree or drop out of school and become a stripper.  If you're only  going to do what any man of similar capabilities can do, then you are an evolutionary dead end and as unimportant to society as the average man is.

In the entire history of the human race, the actions of a few thousand men have actually made much of a difference one way or the other.  If that. But without women deciding to marry and have children, the species would die out.  Do you really want to limit yourself to the same sort of irrelevance as the average man?

Another thing you have no reason to know is that young women are reliably bad at foreseeing what they will want to do in the near future.  I graduated with a number of women like you.  None of them thought they were interested in marriage and children until they were about 27.  Then they suddenly changed their minds and some of them were very upset that they had spent the previous ten years pursuing goals that were now unimportant to them.  I even wrote a column about it called Spiting Their Pretty Faces back in 2003, you can google it.  Think about 2003.  You were ten.  Are your goals the same now as they were then?  If not, then how can you be certain that your goals, and your opinion about marriage and children, will be the same when you are 30?

In any event, I wish you good fortune regardless of what path you eventually choose.

Regards, etc.
Vox

Labels: ,

260 Comments:

1 – 200 of 260 Newer› Newest»
Anonymous farmer Tom June 05, 2013 7:49 PM  

I will be making this required reading for all the young women I know. Starting with my three daughters.

Anonymous Cail Corishev June 05, 2013 7:51 PM  

Very well said, and more polite than her passive-aggressive, insult-laced message deserved.

Imagine hiring someone who gets so emotional about imagined slights from someone she doesn't know that she can't suppress it long enough to write a cordial email, when all you really want is someone to design circuit boards. (I don't know what "environmental engineering" means; I have a bad feeling it means counting the number of spotted owls in a forest or something.) How long would it be before you had some kind of harassment lawsuit to deal with?

Anonymous Will Best June 05, 2013 7:52 PM  

Its okay, some man will figure out how to create an artificial womb, and some other man will figure out how to harvest genetic material from sexbots.

Also what is environmental engineering? Are those the "experts" that testify some inconsequential bug is being harmed by people that are actually trying to do something productive?

OpenID rufusdog June 05, 2013 7:55 PM  

LOL, well done.

“I don't care you how feel. I really don't. More importantly, neither does anyone else.”

You would think this would be obvious, but it never seems to be.

“then you are an evolutionary dead end and as unimportant to society as the average man is.”

If that doesn’t get her wheels turning about what is and is not important in life nothing will.

Anonymous DT June 05, 2013 7:58 PM  

Imagine hiring someone who gets so emotional about imagined slights from someone she doesn't know that she can't suppress it long enough to write a cordial email, when all you really want is someone to design circuit boards.

'I'm equal to any man, but if you say something I don't like I might faint or throw a temper tantrum.'

How long would it be before you had some kind of harassment lawsuit to deal with?

The ink on the contract would still be wet.

Anonymous Woeuro June 05, 2013 7:59 PM  

Her deluded confidence is remarkable. But I think I hear some cracks forming in her fear-based world. I hope she meets a man who will allow her to serve him.

Anonymous p-dawg June 05, 2013 7:59 PM  

Typically lazy youth. Challenging Vox but offering no logical arguments...that's not exactly persuasive. I would bet money that she felt strong and brave sending the email, too. It basically amounts to "You're bad and I don't like you." Wow, what a useful thing to waste someone's time with.

Anonymous Dan Maguire June 05, 2013 8:02 PM  

Very well said, and more polite than her passive-aggressive, insult-laced message deserved.

Definitely. Vox has treated AA more thoughtfully and honestly than probably most of the people in her life. Take heed, AA. Save the message and see whether or not you're embarrassed/ashamed in 10 years. My guess is that the 30-year-old version of you will cringe at that e-mail you wrote.

Anonymous kh123 June 05, 2013 8:02 PM  

Probably something to do with more efficient means to implement, enforce, etc, carbon credits.

Quixote now fights to build the windmills!

Anonymous Outlaw X June 05, 2013 8:03 PM  

I don't care you how feel. I really don't. More importantly, neither does anyone else. Only about 200 people on a planet of 7 billion actually care about your feelings, and that's if you're lucky.

And by the time she is 65 there will almost no one left to care.

Anonymous realmatt June 05, 2013 8:03 PM  

"His children".

Anonymous 411 June 05, 2013 8:04 PM  

"I am not here on this planet to serve a man and raise his children."

They are half yours too. Maybe you should study biology.

Anonymous Anonagain June 05, 2013 8:05 PM  

I had written up a few paragraphs, but then deleted them. I don't give a crap. Let the twat rot her life away working as a tax-paying drone who won't be cluttering up the world with her spawn.

When reality knocks her teeth in, she will have her cats to comfort her.


Anonymous bub June 05, 2013 8:06 PM  

Pearls before swine

Anonymous Redneck Joe June 05, 2013 8:12 PM  

Imagining the reaction of my physician father if I told him I was taking a course called "environmental chemistry" when I was getting my physics and electrical engineering degrees 25 years ago. Heh.
Wonder if this youngun has given any thought to the fact that the bureaucracy for which she is trying to procure a membership card is broke, neck deep in debt, with a hopeless projected balance sheet.
Though I have to admit, a female with such a ticket might actually be better off than a 22 year old man starting out with my degrees if they can keep the printing presses going for a couple more decades. I didn't think they could do it this long and I was wrong.
I wouldn't want to be making that bet, though. Especially if I was signing up for student loans.

Anonymous DT June 05, 2013 8:13 PM  

Excellent reply Vox. I agree with Tom: required reading for women. Regarding her letter...

My goal in life isn't to get married or to stay at home and take care of the children. I am not here on this planet to serve a man and raise his children.

What on God's Earth makes her think that she has any higher calling then to 'serve a man and raise his children?' Is she going to cure cancer? Stop aging? Perfect fusion power? No? Then 'serving a man' (i.e. giving him the motivation and reward to work his butt off for society) and 'raising his children' (i.e. producing and shaping the next generation of human beings) is the absolute best she can hope to do with her life.

In the entire history of the human race, the actions of a few thousand men have actually made much of a difference one way or the other. If that. But without women deciding to marry and have children, the species would die out. Do you really want to limit yourself to the same sort of irrelevance as the average man?

God that hits home. I look at my life and career and wonder what the hell "career women" are thinking. Who told them a career is satisfying? Who told them a corporate job means anything? What idiot convinced them that corporate drones are worth the particle board their desks are made out of? Ask a single man whose job has been outsourced how meaningful and fulfilling a career is.

You go girl. You chase your stupid career. GRRRL PWR!!!

Anonymous Anonymous June 05, 2013 8:15 PM  

Hell, Vox kicked her teeth in, and how!

Anonymous jaciii June 05, 2013 8:17 PM  

environmental not environments.

Anonymous Anonymous June 05, 2013 8:19 PM  

joetexx here...

The best post I've seen since I started reading you. Tone and content were exactly right.

I wouldn't exactly count on it, but one day she may thank you, whether you know of it r not.

Anonymous Catan June 05, 2013 8:20 PM  

So, she clearly despises the idea of women being 'indoctrinated' into being stay at home moms like in those evil Fifties...but she's obviously been indoctrinated by feminist dogma, because there's no way she came up with all that drivel herself.

What's the difference? Either way, she's parroting what others taught her.

What nonsense.


Anonymous Beau June 05, 2013 8:20 PM  

Lydia's wedding will be in November. Afterwards, she will socially announce herself as Mrs. Aragorn W. using her husband's full name. I think he is a blessed man, and she, a blessed woman.

Anonymous Mike M. June 05, 2013 8:24 PM  

Vox, I hope you don't mind my hijacking this for a moment....

Dear AA:

Vox isn't an engineer, and you may therefore be tempted to disregard his opinions. I AM an engineer. Aerospace & Ocean Engineering, Virginia Tech, graduated in 1985. Graduated from the U.S. Naval Test Pilot School in 1992.

He's right.

In particular, Vox is right about not many people giving a damn about your feelings. You're studying to be an engineer - and the weakness about arguing from your feelings should be blazingly obvious. Cold, hard, brutal logic is an engineer's stock in trade. If you are going to have a successful career in this field, you might want to trade in emotional arguments for rational ones.

He's right about the importance of the traditional role of women as mothers, also. Any society that survives will put the safety of women and children first. Because they are the future. One thousand fertile women can produce (roughly) one thousand babies per year, whether they have one hundred or one hundred million men at their disposal.

Now, am I telling you to drop out of college, get married, and stay in the kitchen? Actually, no. Precisionist-grade minds are scarce, we need them in the workforce. The "women ruin everything" meme is more correctly expressed as "giving in to the demands of the feminists ruins everything". And you'll find that taking the feminist chip off your shoulder will make your career go a lot smoother. Work on a sense of humor. Hit Vox with witty ripostes. Not sarcastic, witty.

You'll score points just for trying.

Now, go make me a sandwich-making machine. :-)

Anonymous jaciii June 05, 2013 8:29 PM  

Knew three lady veterinarians with same attitude. Then one (who specializes in equine fertility) accidentally became preggo. Suddenly the other two had to start squeezin' out kiddies, too. They don't do so much vet work now and one quit altogether. That's a net loss of about 2.5 useful doctorates to society.

Higher education/training is generally wasted on the female.

Blogger tz June 05, 2013 8:30 PM  

My take:

I note you are in "environmental engineering" instead of a STEM field (see adafruit.com). Chemistry, Physics, and Mathematics as such are more challenging, and then you can apply them to become a chemical, electrical, software, or mechanical engineer.

Perseverance is a virtue, so keep working your rear end off.

As to abortion, you seem intelligent and in control, but my acid test on abortion - Do you know that sex == babies, and no sex == no babies? Assuming you do know, are you in control of yourself or not? You are the one asserting the rights - and the responsibilities that come with it. If you either cannot or will not deny yourself sex, the baby could only be the victim of first your negligence, second your murderous intent. If you are either incapable of understanding the sex=baby or incapable of acting on this knowledge because of your libido, why should I trust you to vote, drive, or anything else?

As for rape, I have a simple test. I will support any law that on whatever basis that will allow any one who claims to be a victim of rape to abort the baby. But this includes men who accuse/file charges/give proof of rape on the same basis the women do. Are you ready for men who claim the sex was not consensual (on whatever basis, lax or strict) to be able to force (think SWAT team no-knock raids) women to abort on the same basis women who claim to have had non consensual sex to get abortions?

But consider that you are trying to be an engineer - which means solving problems. Is not society itself, its decay, and the thoughts and actions of your peers a problem? If you evaluate yourself and decide after weighing things you never desire to become a mother, then find some other problem to solve. Yet if you wish to make the greatest difference, the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world, but don't take my word for it. Apply your engineering talent.

You've probably seen the discussions about the manosphere. But you haven't volunteered. Are you yet a virgin? Are you a slut (engineers usually don't mind clearly defined words)? You are in college, so there must be temptation. Have you thought through if the traditional view - what Chesterton called "the democracy of the dead" has the correct view? Or modern feminism? You need to think if you are an engineer, but don't limit yourself to the textbook problems. Look about you and your situation, the culture, and the world, through the eyes of an engineer.

The world, reality, doesn't care if you are black or white, male or female. But what you can do changes. I get sunburns unless I use sunscreen. Should I moan and complain that the sun discriminates against whites? I do not have the anatomy to support a zygote through toddler. You do.

Will the world be a better place 50 years from now if you had a good career but end up a spinster, or if you find a man and "engineer" a family of well civilized (in the old sense - you probably don't know what that even means - the WW2 generation wold), well educated, well behaved children? I can't decide for you. However you are at the point where the decision matters. When you are in your mid-30s your options won't be the same.

Anonymous civilServant June 05, 2013 8:30 PM  

I would advise all men to read this open letter and to consider carefully all of its statements and implications - and then to consider how well they themselves fit this view of women and how well they therefore warrant only the rights that should be permitted to women.

Anonymous Luke June 05, 2013 8:32 PM  

1) Excellent OP. (Would have liked to see more specificity expressed to her on how women having voting rights is clearly a poor idea for societies with the desire to endure, with essentially no positive aspects to it, but it was not that long of a response.)

2) First of two aphorisms about women I devised:
"A Master's degree usually means (at best) not much of a family, and a Ph.D. usually means NO family."

3) The second aphorism about women's lives:
"Live like a man, expect to give birth to as many children as a man does."

Anonymous PGS June 05, 2013 8:36 PM  

As a woman with a BS in Mech E and a MS in Info Sci...all I can say is...spot on, Vox. Spot.On.

I was this girl at age 20. Now in my 40s, happily married, stay-at-home homeschooling mom to 4. Going back to work as an engineer would be something of a nightmare to me now. I wouldn't have understood this 20 years ago.

Anonymous TheExpat June 05, 2013 8:40 PM  

Environmental engineering for typical man: Water/air purification, sewage treatment, land/soil reclamation, etc. = tax payer

Environmental engineering for typical woman: "Environmentally conscious" NPO = tax consumer

Blogger tz June 05, 2013 8:41 PM  

I am working hard to be an engineer.

Must be a decent school. You might emerge with minimal competence.

My goal in life isn't to get married or to stay at home and take care of the children.

You already said you wanted to be an engineer, and not a nanny.

I am not here on this planet to serve a man and raise his children.
How do you know? Non Serviam! Even if the man would love you, support you, and you would be far happier on all levels? Did you ever buy a product because of marketing hype and the next day regretted it when you didn't feel like wonder woman? Sometimes on the other side of the fence, they used bright green paint on brown grass.

I have my own goals and my own motivations.
But are your goals good or evil, worthy or unworthy? Are your motivations based on rationalized nonsense or something reasonable.

Anonymous Anonymous June 05, 2013 8:47 PM  

I worked with a lady who, after earning a law degree, decided that law was not for her, so, she went in to engineering. She worked that for about three years, in a very high demanding, and stressful job. Guess what, she went in to sales & marketing. Vox, you couldn't have called it any closer!

Blogger Panzerdude June 05, 2013 8:52 PM  

Now at 50, I feel sorry for this young woman. She's bought into a lie so completely, she believes being smart and working in an office is more fulfilling than raising a family. 100 years from now, assuming she has no children, she will be as unremembered as, Vox points out, any man, with one exception...only men that don't have families either.

You see, 100 years from now my grandchildren will likely "know" about me and my wife. Our kids and their kids will carry on the family. Additionally, if you believe there is a Creator God and heaven, then we will all "get to know each other again.

This woman, on the other hand, will simply be forgotten by the sands of time....

Anonymous ENthePeasant June 05, 2013 8:59 PM  

"it doesn't exist anymore than fairies and unicorns do."

WTF??? ARE YOU SURE? VD, This is typical of your raciss, Misogynistic, Christian centric view of the world. I'm very intelligent and polite... otherwise I'd tell you I HATE YOU!!! You probably won't even read this!

Anonymous re allow anonymous comments June 05, 2013 9:03 PM  

Think about 2003. You were ten.

aaaaaand we're done here

Anonymous E. PERLINE June 05, 2013 9:04 PM  

Years ago I spent evenings and weekends directing plays for a theater in Long Island. I also had to cast actors who read for the parts. Even then, young actresses wanted to play "the captain."

An actor playing a role has to invent a history of his life, even though it isn't in the script. Would this young woman convince an audience she could be the captain? I always had to conclude her experience and nature would be inadequate.

an audience she sense . Even if it My in-most thought was - will the audience believe it? and could see the audience I of the ship. read for a space ship captaincy and said

Anonymous E. PERLINE June 05, 2013 9:07 PM  

I re-wrote this post. Please stop reading at "inadequate."

Anonymous A Visitor June 05, 2013 9:07 PM  

Think about 2003. You were ten. What I've found, through first hand experience (and i'm you all have, too) is people (I say this since I've seen it from men and women in my case) at that age are immature. They might think they're hot stuff at 20. I remember getting into a listserv fight at grad school with the new students who had just came fresh out of undergrad at 22 or were doing a special joint program with our department (a few were 20 or 21). They were immature and that is putting it nicely.

AA, I can tell you, as someone who was studying engineering his first year of undergrad, your priorities can change fast. If I was able to walk up to a 20 year old version of myself (I'm 26 now), I'd give him a good talking to regarding some of his thought processes and actions.

If you would've told me at 26 I'd be where I am now and doing what I'm doing, I would've laughed.

Keep an open mind, in the truest since of the word. Your world will probably change before you have even realized it has (and for the better).

My best friends married when I was (and they were) 20, our junior year of undergrad. They're on year number six of marriage, have a son, and another son or daughter is on the way. The wife is an OBGYN and the husband is a video editor. They're more mature than most I know my age (even moreso, when you look at when they got married). I remember many persons, including family, deriding their decision to get married when they did.

It wasn't my time but they were more than mature enough to do so.

I don't know what "environmental engineering" means

I don't either but seeing how it was starting to become a fad my junior and senior year of undergrad (which was a very well known engineering university), and especially during graduate school, I'd hazard a guess as to it's a way of sustainably planning infrastructure. Of course, this would make civil engineers (especially highway and heavy, like my old roommate) cringe as it would probably lead to greater structural failure. Then again, maybe not. Like I said, I don't know what it is. All I know is that given the Left's co-opting of environment (and its derivatives), sustainability, etc., I don't like it.

"I am not here on this planet to serve a man and raise his children."

They are half yours too. Maybe you should study biology.


This reminds me of one of my sister's friends. Her friend was so upset that she'd only be having (I didn't catch all of the conversation) her boyfriend's (fianceé?) children, etc.

My last girlfriend was a few years older than me (6 to be precise, this was a few years ago) and that motherhood clock was kicking in to high gear.

Priorities change. Hopefully, something not too shocking will happen and you'll see the feminism you've been fed is a lie. I hope that's what happens. Being a bitter old hen feminist (as one chick I knew in undergrad will certainly be) is not a worthy life.

Anonymous Will Best June 05, 2013 9:11 PM  

Higher education/training is generally wasted on the female.

That might be true from a societal standpoint, but not necessarily from an individual standpoint. If you are going for the perfect woman, you want one that is attractive, fertile, nurturing, smart, and athletic.

Depending on the degree and institution it can vouch for intelligence.

Anonymous ENthePeasant June 05, 2013 9:11 PM  

"Environmental engineering is the integration of science and engineering principles to improve the natural environment (air, water, and/or land resources), to provide healthy water, air, and land for human habitation (house or home) and for other organisms, and to remediate pollution sites. Further more it is concerned with finding plausible solutions in the field of public health, such arthropod-borne diseases, implementing law which promote adequate sanitation in urban, rural and recreational areas. It involves waste water management and air pollution control, recycling, waste disposal, radiation protection, industrial hygiene, environmental sustainability, and public health issues as well as a knowledge of environmental engineering law. It also includes studies on the environmental impact of proposed construction projects."

So basically she's working towards and internship at the Sierra Club and then onto that important job in government land where she'll have the power to wreck the world in ways far beyond her limited understand of it.

Not to be an assuming SOB, but lot of you Dads out there need to take head of how she likely got this way. I've seen this time and again, good men encouraging cupcake that nothing is more special than her.

Anonymous WaterBoy June 05, 2013 9:15 PM  

Vox, I applaud your effort, though I fear it is all for naught. Everything you just said flies in the face of everything the young lass has heard for the past 20 years. You are contradicting what her parents, teachers, friends, society, and popular culture have all told her, and exactly who the Hell are you -- some Internet stranger -- to tell her what to do?

Maybe she'll see the light in 10 years, as you say. But the odds against that are nearly as small as the odds of her listening to you now.

Blogger GAHCindy June 05, 2013 9:15 PM  

Gosh, that just hit the spot. Nicely done. :-D

Anonymous Sigyn June 05, 2013 9:16 PM  

I am working hard to be an engineer. My goal in life isn't to get married or to stay at home and take care of the children. I am not here on this planet to serve a man and raise his children. I have my own goals and my own motivations.

Honey. Sweetie. Listen up.

No. You are here on this planet to serve God and do His will. If you get married and have children, then His will is that you put your utmost into being a good wife and a good mother. That usually means you "serve a man" and "raise his children". And if you have to stay home to do it well, then you stay home and do it well.

Before you get much older, you will discover that your "goals and motivations" mean just about zip in the greater scheme of things--probably about the time you start applying for jobs. Or possibly about the time you hear the tick-tock of your ovaries. Or maybe, just maybe, you'll meet a good, strong man who makes you realize that everything you thought you wanted in life wasn't what you wanted after all.

I'd wish you the latter right away, but if you're anything like I was, you aren't in a position to appreciate a good man right now.

Blogger GAHCindy June 05, 2013 9:18 PM  

"I don't know what environmental engineering is."

Hmmm. I think that's what I do when I go push the buttons on our programmable thermostat.

Anonymous TLM June 05, 2013 9:19 PM  

Female engineers always remind me of that scene in Schindler's List where the Jew broad engineer is running her mouth about how the foundation of the building was poured wrong. Ray Fiennes effectively handled her bitching.

Blogger Phoenician June 05, 2013 9:21 PM  

And the reason is that most women just don't enjoy engineering the way men do. You're obviously smart, you can do the schoolwork, but it is unlikely that you will want to do the real thing for very long.

God, you're an idiot.

Most people never succeed as sf writers. It is unlikely that you ever will. Therefore, by your logic, you should now give up.

Dipshit. And a *stupid* dipshit at that.

Blogger crazyivan498 June 05, 2013 9:27 PM  

What these women are really doing is just shit testing. All these women writing in morally outraged just want to have VOX' s babies. They dreaming oh what it would be to meet a man that can make me abetter women

Anonymous kh123 June 05, 2013 9:27 PM  

Its vocabulary is increasing.

Anonymous Loki of Asgard June 05, 2013 9:27 PM  

Phoenician, I sincerely doubt she will have sex with you, no matter how white your horse or shining your armour.

Anonymous The Voice Of Reason June 05, 2013 9:28 PM  

"No. You are here on this planet to serve God and do His will. If you get married and have children, then His will is that you put your utmost into being a good wife and a good mother."

No, AA is NOT here to do what you think she ought to do. She, like everyone else here, can make up her own mind how to pursue their own life. As VD stated succinctly, it doesn't matter what he, you, or I think. AA, go your own path and figure things out for yourself. If you decide to marry and become a stay at home mother, great. If you decide to have a career, and forgo marriage, have at it. If you decides to fuck everyone in sight, and contract an STD, fine. Make mistakes, learn from them, and carry on.


"You are contradicting what her parents, teachers, friends, society, and popular culture have all told her, and exactly who the Hell are you -- some Internet stranger -- to tell her what to do?"

EXACTLY! VD is not the gatekeeper nor the judge of a person's behavior, what they should or should not do, just because from his own perspective--which MAY be right--if pursuing your own endeavors ultimately leads you to shirk your supposed role as a dutiful housewife and baby factory.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 05, 2013 9:32 PM  

AA,

I am also an Engineer. Mechanical Engineering, UC San Diego. I went to school with several very smart women. Of the four that I stayed in touch with after graduation, two are now (20+ years later) stay-at-home-moms (though with part-time self-employed jobs), one is an executive chef, and one designs rocket engines. However, all four got excellent educations and do not regret their degrees (though they have some regret about their early career choices, but then so do most people, men and women).

One very large difference between then and now however, is that they did not have to incur large debt. Tuition was a little over $1,000 a year for us. I suspect it is higher for you. The three women who did not pursue engineering careers did not have to pay off tens of thousands of dollars of student debt while making their career changes. If they had had that sort of debt, they may have been trapped in miserable careers. Please beware of that trap.

Secondly, I notice your major is Environmental Engineering. Caring for the environment is noble, but that particular degree is not really the best way to pursue it. There are many, many engineers working to make the environment better, but they don't typically have Environmental Engineering degrees. There are Electrical and Mechanical Engineers building low-emission vehicles. There are Chemical and Electrical Engineers building less polluting power generation and transmission facilities. There are Mechanical and Chemical Engineers building better treatment plants. Switch to one of those degrees if you really want to make a different. They are what companies hire. Environmental Engineering is a degree created to appeal to students, not to hiring managers. You will have a better chance of finding a meaningful job with a different engineering degree.

Now, one final thing. As a 20 year old woman with some brains, the world really is your oyster. You have many, many opportunities right now. But they won't last. As you progress through your 20's, your options will gradually diminish. If you reach 30 without having made your choice, it may very well be too late. You will have far fewer options than you have now. That's the way of the world.

It's the same with men, only it's delayed a few years. The men your age have limited opportunities, but in another 5 to 7 years, they will start to see the possibilities open up. But again, it's limited for them. If they don't make a good choice before their late 30's, their options will begin to diminish and the world will pass them by.

That's how it is. Fair, unfair, or indifferent, complaining about it is like complaining about gravity.

I'll say this - the friends I have who got married and started families early are generally much happier in their 40's than people who waited. Men and women, but especially the women.

Anonymous mwcain June 05, 2013 9:34 PM  

Environmental engineers are not hippies. They design the systems that clean ground water, wastewater, drinking water, and odorous and contaminated air. It is a specialized offshoot of civil engineering. Less roads, more chemistry and biology.

That being said, she will end up wasting her companies time just like all the other women in the field. I know. I work with a bunch of 'part time' women engineers who wanted to have babies. The men in the office end up doing all the overtime to make up for it.

I do find it hilarious she doesn't want to submit to a husband she loves but is more than happy to submit to a boss she doesn't give a shit about.

Blogger Justthisguy June 05, 2013 9:34 PM  

Oh, boy. Feminist Shoulder Chip warning! All of the really serious female engineers I have known or heard of seem to have autistic tendencies (believe me, it takes one to know one, and I like a gal who rocks). This gal seems more like a normal woman who happens to be good at math. Maybe she really does have the Engineering Temperament, but I kinda doubt it from what she wrote. She doesn't seem oblivious enough to social considerations to make a good engineer.

Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus June 05, 2013 9:36 PM  

"My goal in life isn't to get married or to stay at home and take care of the children."

Well, yeah, it kinda is (Genesis 3:16, I Timothy 2:15)

Anonymous A Visitor June 05, 2013 9:40 PM  

OT but I must ask:

GAHCindy, you wouldn't be from Indianapolis, would you?

Anonymous WaterBoy June 05, 2013 9:40 PM  

The Voice of Reason"EXACTLY! VD is not the gatekeeper nor the judge of a person's behavior, what they should or should not do"

Whoosh!

That was a rhetorical observation of how the young typically view the wisdom of their elders. It's how every generation looks at the advice of those who came before them; it has ever been thus, and will ever continue to be.

The young lady asked Vox some questions; he provided answers and more in response, while also offering it to anyone else who cares to listen. My view of such situations has always been, "Don't ask the questions if you might not like the answers."

Anonymous The Voice of Raisin June 05, 2013 9:40 PM  

Dehydrate as much as possible in the sun. Use sugar and epsom salts if necessary. STDs may or may not be contracted, it's up to you.

Anonymous Cail Corishev June 05, 2013 9:41 PM  

Depending on the degree and institution it can vouch for intelligence.

It may, or it may vouch for her having parents with money and being willing to show up for class often enough to pass. Intelligence can vouch for itself in plenty of other ways.

Anonymous Anonymous June 05, 2013 9:43 PM  

For most of history, it

Anonymous Godfrey June 05, 2013 9:44 PM  

Ah yes... goals. I had "goals" once. I worked very hard to get a piece of paper (i.e. a degree), then I went on to get another piece of paper ((i.e. an MBA). Then I worked very hard to get some letters (CPA and CMA).

Oh and what great things that got me over the next 30 years as a corporate serf working 50 plus hours a week as a desk jockey. Now I get to watch the "capital" I worked very hard to save be devalued - pissed away - by the government granted monopoly called the FED.

Sweetie, here's some advice. Most of what you learned in school is nothing but lies. It's pure bull shit. You'll spend the rest of your life realizing it and hopefully you'll realize it before it is too late.

Don't become another rat in the rat race. There's no finish line.

Anonymous Luke June 05, 2013 9:44 PM  

TLM June 05, 2013 9:19 PM
"Female engineers always remind me of that scene in Schindler's List where the Jew broad engineer is running her mouth about how the foundation of the building was poured wrong. Ray Fiennes effectively handled her bitching.

Please describe this scene more fully.

Anonymous Lana June 05, 2013 9:47 PM  

"If you're only going to do what any man of similar capabilities can do, then you are an evolutionary dead end..."

This is what I always stress with my kids and any feminist I talk to...Your opinion is irrelevant if it dies with you. Meanwhile, I'll be like the Faberge shampoo commercial, multiplying and so on and so on and so on...

I win. Sucks to be you. ;)

Anonymous LES June 05, 2013 9:48 PM  

I married a woman with a BA in math who went on to get her MA in math.
She wanted a career and no kids so she went on the pill. It seemed that being
on the pill the rest of her life could result in medical problems so I had a vasectomy.
In my early 20's! Later, at age 30 there was no "career" and she started wanting children.
Well, the reversal worked and we had 2 sons. She home-schooled both K-12. The boys
are six years apart yet they scored identical, high SAT scores. Now my wife teaches math
in a small Christian high school and doesn't regret becoming a mom.

Blogger tz June 05, 2013 9:50 PM  

Voice of the Eden Serpent:

"No. You are here on this planet to serve God and do His will. If you get married and have children, then His will is that you put your utmost into being a good wife and a good mother."

No, AA is NOT here to do what you think she ought to do. She, like everyone else here, can make up her own mind how to pursue their own life. As VD stated succinctly, it doesn't matter what he, you, or I think. AA, go your own path and figure things out for yourself.


Assuming she has not been thoroughly brainwashed and indoctrinated in feminism.

If there is one problem, it is that no one figures out things for themselves. They just pick a warren - red or blue - and tune into MSNBC or FoxNews to upload mindless talking points not unlike Trinity learned to pilot a copter in The Matrix.

AA's missive does not sound like she is thinking for herself. It is possible, but then she is very weak at dialectic (especially for an engineer).

The danger today is it is easier to shift paradigms, move the ignorantly blissful bunnies, from the blue warren to the red warren, than to get them to actually start thinking. To examine themselves.

Anonymous Catan June 05, 2013 9:51 PM  

Phoenician, Vox has already succeeded as a writer. He has plenty of fans who love his work, dipshit.

Do you have any concept of probability? Vox does. Do you? Have you seen the gender breakdown of engineers recently, genius?

What do those numbers tell you about women in the field, hmm?

Anonymous nick digger June 05, 2013 9:54 PM  

"I am not here on this planet to serve a man and raise his children."

For most of history, it's been the other way around: Man busting his ass at work all day to serve his wife and her children. Mind you, this was no free lunch for the woman; she had to sweat and toil to make his daily sammiches and wash his work clothes.


"I have my own goals and my own motivations."
Which are, apparently, to serve some corporation or government agency, and have taxes leeched from your income to support welfare queens raising their children.

On second thought, you are a thoughtful and selfless person. Please proceed with your plans. The world will be a much better place with you inspecting construction sites in the middle of nowhere, and pointing out that some concrete splashed outside of the washout basin, and landed on some dirt.

Blogger tz June 05, 2013 9:58 PM  

where the Jew broad engineer

Ah, adds new meaning to "broad minded".

Anonymous Godfrey June 05, 2013 10:04 PM  

@LES June 05, 2013 9:48 PM "... we had 2 sons. She home-schooled both K-12."


I'm glad you both figured it out in time. Most people don't.

The wealthy Power Elite don't want THEIR world crowded. Thus the reason they spend so much time brain-washing little girls. Yep... just have to delay the little buggers from attempting to procreate until after peak fertility.

Anonymous Godfrey June 05, 2013 10:06 PM  

"I am not here on this planet to serve a man and raise his children."



No, we're all here on this planet to serve the bankers and raise their corporate profits.

Anonymous Godfrey June 05, 2013 10:08 PM  

"I have my own goals and my own motivations."


LMAO, you have no free will. You're programmed. "Your" goals and "your" motivations are those of your masters. Just like mine were when I was young... and blind.


Anonymous Stickwick June 05, 2013 10:26 PM  

I started off in engineering, too, because it was the most macho bad-ass major I could think of. Like Vox, I had the ability, but not the aptitude.

I could have written AA's letter twenty years ago. I was the architect of my grand to-be life, and would've found Vox's views to be a personal affront to my ambitions. But when I wrote to Vox for the first time four years ago, much further down the path than AA, I had come to the realization that the feminist promises were lies. I craved tradition. I wanted to be my husband's wife, and I wanted children. And, as much as I love my field, a career had come to feel like a hollow pursuit.

AA may or may not figure it out in time. At 20, she still has time to work it through, and meanwhile, she ought to finish the degree as long as it doesn't put her in debt. But hopefully her realization comes sooner rather than later. I figured it out in my late 30s; I am now 42 years old. By some stroke of unbelievable good fortune, I'm still fertile at this age, and have managed to get pregnant rather easily and without medical intervention (but perhaps not without divine intervention). The vast majority of women my age are not so lucky. As it is, it's extremely likely I will end up with only one child, though I would like more. I pray that AA realizes her heart's desire far sooner than I did.

Anonymous Azimus June 05, 2013 10:26 PM  

AA -

God love you, but you are a young person with no experience. Find ten wonen who've gone before you, 5-10yrs older than you, and ask them about their experiences. Listen to them - see if they're towing the line or being straight with you. Stop believing the hype and start getting data. See what you're really in for.

Enviro Engineering is the kiss of death for the most part. You do 90%+ of the coursework that a Structural Engineer does, only to land a job making $40k at a soil analysis lab.


I looked into it when I was trying to graduate early, but in the Civil Engineering Dept at my school Structural Engineering was the way to go. It opened a lot of doors for me, anyway.

Blogger Justthisguy June 05, 2013 10:29 PM  

P.s and further, AA: To paraphrase Vox, he said he had the ability to be an engineer, but not the temperament, so he bore up and did something else. My case is sadder, because I have the temperament but not the ability. I consoled myself for that by designing and building nice model airplanes and losing them in thermals.

AA, do you really have the temperament of an engineer? Do you like to make machines with your hands and see how they work? Have you even experimented on a sewing machine inventing weird artistic clothing? Have you built your own potter's wheel and made some really cool stuff on it with your hands?

I know a woman who has done both of the latter two things. She never went to college, and makes a good living as a draftsman. For health reasons, she was unable to bear children. I believe she wishes she could have done that. Hell, I wish that _I_ could have left some offspring behind me. It's too late for me, AA, but not for you.

Anonymous Frederick303 June 05, 2013 10:45 PM  

As an electrical engineer (BS, MS) who as has worked since the mid 1980s in my field, in 6 separate companies, I can say I have never met a skilled female engineer. Not one, (except an R F engineer that converted from a man). I do not quit know why, but good hardware engineers all seem to have been tinkerers when young, most that stay in the field are into guns, planes, car restoration, wargaming or god knows what, but they mostly have some intense hands-on hobbies.

Women do not seem to have that, most are not tinkerers or completely obsessive about hobbies like men are. But all that intensity towards inanimate objects is what makes a hardware good engineer. It is as if the very nature of Hardware engineering is a male field.

Anonymous Anonagain June 05, 2013 11:00 PM  

AA is not asking for advice. The attitude is farcical - smugness in the face of utter cluelessness, but that's to be expected for someone of that age. But in addition to being young and naive, she's a defective product created by the Leftist destruction of the individual and society - a society that would eradicate a woman's natural instincts, as well as a man's, in the name of equality - to produce freaks of nature - feminized men, feminazi women. But that's not equality - that's a train wreck at a freak show.

Miss Drone is neither empowered nor independent. She's a pawn, and complacent victim of a ruinous ideology. Whatever intelligence she may possess is nullified by a common sense that is nonexistent. Perhaps in time she will come to see the devastating long-term consequences of her stupidity and change her course.

Anonymous Lana June 05, 2013 11:05 PM  

Stickwick,

"I figured it out in my late 30s; I am now 42 years old. By some stroke of unbelievable good fortune, I'm still fertile at this age, and have managed to get pregnant rather easily and without medical intervention (but perhaps not without divine intervention)."

My sister couldn't find the "perfect man" until her late 30s. She has had two adorable kids since then. It wouldn't have surprised me if she had more, once her fertility got going with baby number 2, but she quit. Understandable in her situation, tl:dr, but God works in mysterious ways. Shoot for a basketball team worth of kiddies, let God handle it.

PS..I have children who are homeschooling. When are you going to write your book? I want the grandkids to have it.

Blogger IM2L844 June 05, 2013 11:10 PM  

The problem is that women are not only valuable to society, they are invaluable. They are necessary.

This!

It's not men who devalue womanhood. It's women who insist it's not good enough.

There's no free lunch. It's not a contest that can be won. If the feminists get everything just the way they want it, everybody loses.

You would think a smart environmental engineering student would be able to see the forest...

Blogger Bogey June 05, 2013 11:10 PM  

If she has kids now what the fuck is she supposed to do in her late 30s to mid 40s?

Blogger Doom June 05, 2013 11:15 PM  

My devil side hope she wipes herself off the face of the earth. My other side is praying she finds wisdom, if I have serious doubts. A top tier school? She will be unaffordable to even a top tier school man. And if she makes it out of school, before marrying, she will place herself above too many men for her to be anything other than Sheng Nu. Leftover. Old Maid. Sex in the City scrum. Easy pickings when I was younger. Societal dead weight as I see things now.

Blogger Bogey June 05, 2013 11:21 PM  

If a choice had to be made between Doom and AA we would be much better off if Doom offed himself instead. AA can make a dozen more men.

Anonymous Stickwick June 05, 2013 11:21 PM  

Thanks for the encouragement, Lana. My mother in-law had her last child at 46, all natural. Strange things do happen. I won't rule out more kids -- Husband and I will just have fun and see what happens -- but neither will I count on it.

As for books, I'm currently writing two homeschool curriculums (astronomy and physics) for high school students. They'll be ready to roll out next spring. Once those are done, I'm planning to write a book for younger kids with an emphasis on how modern science fits in with the Bible. Perhaps that will interest your grandchildren, depending on their ages. I gotta say, I'm grateful to God that I am able to put my education to good use -- in His service -- while still making my family a priority.

Blogger IM2L844 June 05, 2013 11:26 PM  

@Lana

Your pregnant too? Congratulations. Women around here are getting pregnant like bunnies. Ahhh, spring is in the air.

Blogger Bogey June 05, 2013 11:32 PM  

My sister couldn't find the "perfect man" until her late 30s. She has had two adorable kids since then. It wouldn't have surprised me if she had more, once her fertility got going with baby number 2, but she quit. Understandable in her situation, tl:dr, but God works in mysterious ways. Shoot for a basketball team worth of kiddies, let God handle it.

One thing I have realized with age, you do appreciate children a lot more. Kind of like how grandparents treat their grand kids much better than they ever treated their own kids.

Anonymous Mr. Pea June 05, 2013 11:39 PM  

"Knowledge without wisdom is a load of books on the back an ass."

Blogger Desert Cat June 05, 2013 11:52 PM  

Bogey, the difference is "can" versus "would". AA does not want to reproduce. Doom does, once he finds the suitable woman.

Anonymous harry12 June 06, 2013 12:12 AM  

AA's bleats reminded me of that female mummy that was found approximately one year after its death. Seems someone happen to wonder what it was doing, where it was and asked around.
( The mummy had been a feminist, childless and not really missed by anybody. )



Anonymous Hyperphrenius June 06, 2013 12:35 AM  

I am working hard to be an engineer. My goal in life isn't to get married or to stay at home and take care of the children. I am not here on this planet to serve a man and raise his children. I have my own goals and my own motivations.

Goals and motivations given to her by her parents, society. "Be your own person!" "You don't need a man!" "Go to college!" Just like the vast majority of people, she conforms to the culture she was raised in. Like all men, she is a part of her father that her father placed in her mother, became a part of her mother that fell out from her mother's crotch after awhile. She was brought into this world naked and screaming and shit herself many, many times in the first years of her life. She had no words, no language, no great view of the world to tell her how it all worked; all that was imparted to her by her parents, and the society her parents lived in.

All her life she was told that women have to be their own people, go to school, get a degree, etc. So what does she do? She is motivated to be her own person, she goes to school with the goal of getting a degree. Perhaps her goal to pursue a degree in "environmental engineering" might be called her own. Maybe that's what she meant?

But even the motivation behind the choosing of that goal isn't her own. Because she isn't a unique and special snowflake. She's a human being, and there are billions like her, driven by the same motivations, for comfort, and safety, and food, and sex, and money, and status, and companionship, and morality, and selfishness, and love. Well, the motivations are different in men and women. Maybe she meant that her woman-motives ought not be subordinated to the motives of a man? Is ensuring that one of her goals?

But even that goal wouldn't be her own. It is, again, a common idea, that women ought not subordinate their own desires to those of a man, and it is taught in our society by schools, the media, and certain parents to all the little girls. She did not choose this goal herself. It was chosen for her, before she was even conceived.

Because that's where most humans, and especially women, get their goals from. Doesn't she realize that of women in other cultures, who were raised to see serving a man and raising his children as being something good, the majority of them have the goal to do so? And that of the ones who are not so motivated, all their motivations are not wholly unique to them, but are variations on motivations that other peoples have had before?

She could always make serving a man and raising his children her own goal, I suppose. But that would involve going against the imperatives of her culture.

Anonymous Freddy June 06, 2013 12:41 AM  

Les, good on you bro.

AA, if darkened and commited to her secular kool-aid drinking binge, will not change her beliefs unless the Triune God would visit her with gracious understanding. It doesn't matter how smart you think, or how logically consistent your arguments persuade; if the will of that person doesn't recieve it then just forget about it. Yes, it may be years before the seed takes root and sprouts forth in belief.

Blogger WarKicker June 06, 2013 12:43 AM  

Stickwick,

Your story sounds a lot like my wife's. She was academically brilliant and quickly became a partner in a very large and profitable Ob/Gyn practice. We had it all; money, large house, cars, boats and the like, but weren't content, mainly because we knew our lives did nothing to glorify God. My wife especially wanted out after just a few years, hoping to raise a family. We took a leap of faith (and a huge pay cut) and she left medicine to stay home to raise four wonderful kids (our last one just 7 months old while she was 44, so don't count out more coming your way!). I can't overstate how encouraged I was from the likes of you, Vox and many others on this blog during this chaotic but wonderful transition. We are now securing property on a lake to build a Christian camp for kids, and I'm scheduled to give yet another apologetics lecture at a church (the way I keep getting invited for these is a whole other story), and will be teaching an apologetics course at my home church. Next year, we'll both use our surgical skills on a medical missions trip in Africa for three weeks. Gave up materialism for contentment, and happiness for joy, and have never looked back.

By the way, also looking forward to your astronomy and physics curricula for our oldest child:)

Anonymous Twilight June 06, 2013 12:45 AM  

... Vox has already succeeded as a writer. He has plenty of fans who love his work, dipshit.

So does Stephenie Meyer.

Blogger SarahsDaughter June 06, 2013 12:50 AM  

Notice how Vox's response to Stickwick four years ago is so similar to his response to AA.

Consistency.

Almost as if truth is...truth.

Anonymous hsu June 06, 2013 1:05 AM  

My sister was an environmental engineer. It only resulted in poorly paid non-profit type jobs.

She went back to school for a hydro-geology degree, so she could find real work, in a for-profit corporation.

Working part time in a private corporation (she went part time after having kids) still pays significantly more than working full time at a non-profit.

Anonymous hausfrau June 06, 2013 1:06 AM  

Dear Miss 20 year old student,
The feminists lied to you. You cannot have it all, whatever that means. Its simply not for you or anyone else to have. Men don't even have it all. Life is made of trade offs. You may rethink the choice of a career over family when you are 30. By then you will be past your best marketable dating years. Your choices will be more restricted. If you manage to meet and marry a man chances are you will have settled for someone you would never have considered when you were 20. If you don't meet a man you will likely end up a forty year old pre-menopausal woman with a lot of regrets. When you are old the only people who will care about you are close family. If you don't have one, old age can be very cold.

hausfrau

Anonymous The Voice Of Reason June 06, 2013 1:22 AM  

"Perhaps in time she will come to see the devastating long-term consequences of her stupidity and change her course."

And simply be "reprogrammed", eh?


"Notice how Vox's response to Stickwick four years ago is so similar to his response to AA."

Everything he says is predicated on a person believing in a higher power, lest you "fall from grace"...you have freedom to do what you want, just beware of God's wrath if you chose the wrong path in life; you can pursue your own happiness, just as long as it revolves around popping out kids and servicing your husband.


"I pray that AA realizes her heart's desire far sooner than I did."

And AA will indeed certainly make up her own mind, regardless of what everyone things she ought to do based on their own personal beliefs. That's the beauty of freedom.


"The wealthy Power Elite don't want THEIR world crowded. Thus the reason they spend so much time brain-washing little girls. Yep... just have to delay the little buggers from attempting to procreate until after peak fertility."

And VD's advice could not be reasonably assumed as "brain-washing"???


"That was a rhetorical observation of how the young typically view the wisdom of their elders. It's how every generation looks at the advice of those who came before them; it has ever been thus, and will ever continue to be."

VD's advice COULD be wisdom, depending upon a person's frame of reference.


"Mind you, this was no free lunch for the woman; she had to sweat and toil to make his daily sammiches and wash his work clothes."

And yet, somehow, society evolves, and new ways emerge regarding the status and opportunities of its participants.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 06, 2013 1:26 AM  

If she has kids now what the fuck is she supposed to do in her late 30s to mid 40s?

I dunno. Start a business? Go back to school? Write a novel? Tell you to fuck off?

The opportunities are limitless.

Anonymous Æ June 06, 2013 1:30 AM  

It might be worth pointing out the differences between the various types of "rights."
AA - Not sure how you define "women's rights," but it is worth mentioning that libertarians acknowledge only negative rights: life, liberty and property; the latter two need not be listed. They are inherent in the right to life (so is self defense). All have these rights, male or female, gay or straight, black or white, born or unborn.
Everything else, including the right to vote, is a political construct. You have no natural right to education, the vote, student loans, or anything else provided by others. What rights do you claim on the basis of your sex?
Believe it or not, it is possible to have a nation in which life, liberty and property are protected for all, but not all have the vote.
When it comes to the notion of "rights," I believe you and Vox are speaking of very different concepts.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 06, 2013 1:32 AM  

AA is not asking for advice.

Probably not, but other people reading might be. Still good to supply the honest answers.

90+% of the comments I make here aren't really directed at the person I'm responding to.

Anonymous Dot connector June 06, 2013 1:44 AM  

Since she's studying engineering she should be able to grok form and function and why things are designed a certain way. Young lady why do you think God designed woman? And if she's not fulfilling the purpose for her design what good is she?

1 Timothy 2:15

Anonymous Anonagain June 06, 2013 1:49 AM  

And simply be "reprogrammed", eh?

Not surprised a Leftist would see it this way. After all, programming is how all little Leftists are made. No, I was talking about plain ole reality - the antidote to Leftist brainwashing. And for all your blathering, hand-waving and frothing at the mouth, you cannot make it go away.

Anonymous Sensei June 06, 2013 1:51 AM  

Notice how Vox's response to Stickwick four years ago is so similar to his response to AA. -SarahsDaughter

Who knows, AA may end up over here commenting.. clearly there's precedent. Red pills can take varying lengths of time to demonstrate their effects, depending on the subject's metabolism.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza June 06, 2013 2:10 AM  

Ah, a seed is planted, perhaps she'll change her mind. It is very bold of a woman to claim she will not serve a man or rear his children. Just as a sands shift so will women's choices.

Fascinating that readers still don't get VD defines superior intellect and is an AWCA - the immediate answer to their logic is VD is ALWAYS wrong AND so mean. When the major issue is lost; those who live in reality and accept it for what it is, using their discerning minds make things very clear.

F'ism has and always will be a failure for a society.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza June 06, 2013 2:14 AM  

Who knows, maybe God has a plan for her in STEMS. Like meeting someone who can guide her to another mindset or perhaps she can keep the mindset and live the good life.

Yet some would suggest that darker days are here...

Anonymous p-dawg June 06, 2013 2:21 AM  

@Twilight: Who said she didn't? So the goalpost has now moved from "successful" to "appreciated by people who agree with me", eh?

Anonymous The Voice Of Raisin June 06, 2013 2:28 AM  

Remember, don't listen to anyone else. Except me. Be free to contract STDs while pruning on the vine. And don't let anyone - save me - tell you you're drying up by living free of The Man's program.

Remember though, epsom salts if the sun's not bringing on the wrinkles.

Anonymous Woeuro June 06, 2013 2:55 AM  

"If she has kids now what the fuck is she supposed to do in her late 30s to mid 40s?"

She can have more kids or care for those born in her early to mid 30s.

Anonymous proudtobeawifeandmum June 06, 2013 3:00 AM  

AA,

I hope you read this post and all the comments. Think about this chicky, you have just been on the receiving end of dozens of good, honest, generous men who have taken the time to give you valuable advice. No strings attached. They aren't asking anything of you, yet they give of their time and intelligence for the better of society.

Take on board what is being said. These men are the pillars of our society and despite your protests, are trying to stand between you and your worst self. One day you will be very embarrassed. Don't dwell, ego is an ugly trait for women to wear.

Move forward and work hard at being your best self. If you become an engineer you will serve a company... how romantic! If you marry and have children, you will be making a difference not just today, but for generations to come.

Blogger Justthisguy June 06, 2013 3:05 AM  

It seems like Jack Amok @1:36 am hast recht. Yup, bear yer kids when yer young and healthy and it's easy, home-school them and learn with them, and then when they are older and can safely be left alone at home, go back to school. When you you get home frome classes, yer kids, had you raised 'em right, will have dinner on the table for you and hubby. Heck, the kids might even be in the same class with you. Y'all could help each other with homework!

As the saying goes, a family that goes to school together is cool together. (I just made that up.)






Blogger Shimshon June 06, 2013 3:13 AM  

Jack Amok, I also went to UCSD (1984-90). I tell my kids (oldest 15) about just how absurdly cheap my education was, and how it was quite possible to work as a student and practically cover the entire cost (if you include summers) yourself, including housing (off campus) and food, car (insurance, gas, repairs were a bitch unless you could do them yourself), college fees, books, everything. Off campus with a car was easy. If you parked off-campus too (which I did for a time), you had a walk to campus, but it was free. I had friends who worked freshman year on. Campus jobs paid pretty well, and had no FICA taken out (and you didn't have to pay it, as a state employee). Even cafeteria jobs paid around $5 (way above the then min). Prices were also stable. My tuition costs went from ~1350 per year to ~1500 over six years. Now, fees increases alone can be 1500! College today is for suckers.

Back to the subject. I started in Computer Engineering but eventually ended up in Cognitive Science. I befriended one geeky chick I met my last year there. She was a hard-core geek (really knew her stuff), moved to Silicon Valley and got a high paying geek job at a then high-flying company (remember Go Corp?) after graduating, and lost interest in it a couple years later. She completely burned out. I mean, completely. Left high tech for good after Go crashed and burned itself. I saw her a few times after this. She kinda went back to nature. Don't even know what she did to support herself. I then lost touch with her (moving to Israel will do that to you), but I finally looked her up this year. She's dead. Killed herself two years ago. Mid-40s. Never married.

I'm not saying that AA is going to end up there. This is just one woman that I knew personally. But I agree with Vox. Odds are, you will end up in management or marketing or lose interest and take up child-bearing and rearing (if you can).

Anonymous VryeDenker June 06, 2013 3:29 AM  

Surprise! Surprise! "Environmental Engineering" has words like "sustainable", "public health", "implementing law" and "environmental impact" in the course description.

This is why I have the theory that childless women go out of their way to find child-surrogates to nurture. If it's not cats, it's the environment, black thugs or other women.

Anonymous Peter Garstig June 06, 2013 3:42 AM  

There is exactly one question I always ask those kind of women:

What legacy is more important than raising children for a) you and b) society?

Blogger papabear June 06, 2013 4:44 AM  

"Odds are, you will end up in management or marketing..."

I would think that a management position would compound female hypergamy.

Anonymous Herman the German June 06, 2013 6:57 AM  

tz said:

If there is one problem, it is that no one figures out things for themselves. They just pick a warren - red or blue - and tune into MSNBC or FoxNews to upload mindless talking points not unlike Trinity learned to pilot a copter in The Matrix.

-- Yeah, because _everybody_ lives in the USSA, right? And no one has access to the internet. What a wordly, enlightened view, Sir. /sarc

Blogger Xoph June 06, 2013 7:00 AM  

Susan Pinker has a book the sexual paradox validating much of Vox's reply. Many women spend up until about 40 pursuing who they are programmed to be vice who they want to be. Women typically don't set goals nor are they introspective. Vox's point on child bearing is spot on - we are going the way of the Do Do and doing it because we are dumber than an extinct bird, our educated women are declining to have kids.

Anonymous Herman the German June 06, 2013 7:16 AM  

tz June 05, 2013 9:58 PM where the Jew broad engineer

Ah, adds new meaning to "broad minded".


-- Uh-huh. Just like your statement which I referenced above. Plank, Eye, Beam......classy, tz.

Anonymous Tom B June 06, 2013 7:19 AM  

>>>> (I don't know what "environmental engineering" means;.....

Cail, that means she designs and sells air conditioners. Literally. I'm not joking.

Anonymous Herman the German June 06, 2013 7:40 AM  

As for books, I'm currently writing two homeschool curriculums (astronomy and physics) for high school students. They'll be ready to roll out next spring. Once those are done, I'm planning to write a book for younger kids with an emphasis on how modern science fits in with the Bible. Perhaps that will interest your grandchildren, depending on their ages. I gotta say, I'm grateful to God that I am able to put my education to good use -- in His service -- while still making my family a priority.


--- The Ilk is grateful to God for YOU, Stickwick. :-)

Anonymous RC June 06, 2013 7:45 AM  

If she graduates and pursues her career, she removes herself from the gene pool or, max, produces slightly below replacement level of ill-mothered children. If she wakes up and pursues her biological imperative, society has malinvested in her education, en masse if you consider her myriad sisters.

In the thirty years I spent hiring software developers (about 200 total people I would estimate) only one woman could pull her own weight (she left to have children and raise a family) and two others were steady and passable. Only the far right of the female bell curve are both equipped and driven to excel in technical disciplines.

Anecdotal I know but a fairly decent sample size.

You were lied to AA, but it's not too late to recover at present, if you can find a man who is not just as indoctrinated in the zeitgeist as are you.

Where are the fathers of such women? What are they thinking? My girls, aged 12 to 27, are currently ending a two year contest to see who can grow the longest hair and become "Daddy's favorite daughter." It's all in good fun. They are being raised to respect a virtuous man and raise his children well.

Anonymous Stingray June 06, 2013 7:50 AM  

Incredibly well written Vox. I hope she reads it and thinks on it. She will want to dismiss it out of hand and I hope she has the courage to not do that.

AA,

It's been said, but I'll say it again. In a lot of ways, I was you. Though I wanted marriage, I would serve no man. We would be equal. What I learned, and what many of the women here have learned, is that your true value is not is in the praise you receive for getting an engineering degree. It is not in accomplishing what men have done before you. The best and most complete way 99.99999% of women can make a very real difference in this world is by raising strong children and while it may irk you to no end, there is also very real and tangible value in helping one' s husband in his life's work. Will you be recognized for it? By your husband, surely, but not by the rest of the world. Recognition does not equal value, as much as we wish it did.

Anonymous RC June 06, 2013 7:52 AM  

The two youngest, 12 and 14, are absolutely gorgeous and will be available to an age-appropriate, intelligent, authentic Christian man in about six years. Applications accepted at present, interview process to commence in 2018.

How about that AA?

Blogger IM2L844 June 06, 2013 8:01 AM  

Gave up materialism for contentment, and happiness for joy, and have never looked back.

I was glad to read this. People often look at me funny when I say that contentment is a more worthy goal than happiness. But, IMHO, having stuff is not inherently inconsistent with contentment except when it is allowed to become the driver.

Blogger Christina June 06, 2013 8:29 AM  

You're obviously smart, you can do the schoolwork, but it is unlikely that you will want to do the real thing for very long.

Yup. Granted, my choice in education wasn't exactly MY choice, I was the head of a (very small) class in Mathematics and Comp Sci. If I had made my choice, it would've been English (the feminists scared me away...) or History (the History professor told me not to...).

I was quite good. I'm not bragging. 4.0 in both my majors. Fact. I had a 1300 on my SATs that had the college calling me and begging me to finish my application. Did I mention its a VERY small school? Same History professor asked what I was doing there when I told him that score.

I lasted in my field for 3 years... half that time was spent trying to find a way OUT. Its not that I don't like math and solving logical puzzles involving strange logical languages with different syntaxes - I just HATED the work environment. Sitting at a computer all day long, being "required" to work overtime, exhausted at the end of the day. I wanted a family, not a job. And every day, I felt my creativity disappearing.

I got out when I met a guy who put a ring on my finger and gave me a baby.

Now, I'm probably different than most of the women who "want" to do engineering in that I've known since childhood the only thing I wanted was to be a wife/mom with lots of books. I went to college to LEARN... not to be an independent, feminist with something to prove.

Anonymous AmyJ June 06, 2013 8:32 AM  

That was a wonderful, thoughtful reply - more thoughtful than the tone of her email warranted.

I started lurking around this blog around 2007, at first out of horrified fascination and offended "sensibilities", but then out of total conversion. Since then, I've seen (and this has been observed by others) that women do one of two things with the truths presented here: screech and flee (screeching with their fellow harpies from afar), or screech and stick around because something lodged in their head that they can't get out. No matter what the reaction, the things said here about women hurt at first, but not because VD or the Ilk "hate" women or want to see them oppressed, but because of the fact that women have been deceiving themselves and each other for a very long time. Feminism is the root of all female unhappiness, and that's a hard truth to swallow after years, sometimes decades, of being force fed grrl power, glass ceilings, and anything you can do I can do better. I hope that AA is the type that screeches and sticks around. I know this blog, and others like Sunshine Mary, Dalrock, and even the dreaded Chateau, have saved me from a life of carousel hopping followed by spinsterhood while making powerpoints at a pointless job and nurturing shelter dogs to replace my lack of children. She's still very young and can get on the path to happiness, if not personal fulfillment, with plenty of time to spare for a career post-motherhood in her early 40's if she wants something to do.

Anonymous Beau June 06, 2013 8:54 AM  

AA,

Does the overwhelming tone of the comments here sound like hate filled misogynists or people who while strangers are still concerned for your well-being, happiness, and fulfillment in life?

Does it make a difference who you listen to? Of course it does. Every young man who wants to date my daughters gets the same speech from me which always begins, "My daughter has been loved every day of her life.." My daughter Lydia, age 23, is a college graduate making a ton of money in a fulfilling career. She's the hit of the Med-Surg floor in our local hospital. Although just graduated, professional people that meet her think she has 3-5 years experience. The hospital wants her to begin training as a charge nurse. Lydia is also ready to be married. Her fiance is nicknamed Aragorn because I told him before he could ask for her hand, he had to accomplish some key events, thus, "Only the King of Gondor gets to marry the princess." This challenge served as a spur and a reminder to him she is worth it. This isn't a casual hook-up but the real McCoy. She will enter marriage ready and unencumbered by feminist bitterness and suspicion, ready to give herself fully and completely to her husband and her future. Do you see the contrast between her achieved and imminent joy versus your angry bravado?

Blogger Markku June 06, 2013 8:56 AM  

This is exactly how you persuade women about anything initially unpalatable. The screeching is going to happen, it's just a law of nature. You neither argue (like you would with a man) nor back down. You put the truth in, and then just wait for it to work its magic on its own.

Anonymous DrTorch June 06, 2013 9:15 AM  

Environmental Engineering?!?

WTF...that was specifically created for women. What a worthless degree.

When I was interviewing for positions a couple of years ago, we included Env Eng among the degrees we'd consider. After reviewing resumes and interviewing a couple, I gave up on it. Just tossed resumes after that.

There's no technical acumen with that degree, it's all about gov't regulations. But they don't even take the time to become expert on those.

Blogger WarKicker June 06, 2013 9:24 AM  

"But, IMHO, having stuff is not inherently inconsistent with contentment except when it is allowed to become the driver."

Agreed. I am still blessed to have lots of "stuff", but now am content and try to be a good steward of what I have rather than always trying to keep up with the Joneses. (Hebrews 13:5)

Anonymous Chancellor Gorkon June 06, 2013 9:33 AM  

TLM June 05, 2013 9:19 PM
"Female engineers always remind me of that scene in Schindler's List where the Jew broad engineer is running her mouth about how the foundation of the building was poured wrong. Ray Fiennes effectively handled her bitching.

Please describe this scene more fully." - Luke

This is the scene he means.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt4dDcAYZkY

Anonymous Viking June 06, 2013 9:48 AM  

The irony is that feminists are never feminine.

Blogger Kentucky Packrat June 06, 2013 10:03 AM  

Milady read the post and said "He's right. He was too mean, but he's right." I didn't argue with her on the point... :)

AA, I'm going to give you the same advise I am giving my own daughter: There are only two things that you can do with any value.

Spiritually, you serve God. This is the number one job of any person. This is more important than a husband, a family, or a career. Paul says it's better for a person to serve God and not be married, because then you can concentrate your efforts to the Gospel. This doesn't mean being a nun, but it does mean that you live for the Gospel, and everything else in your life exists to facilitate your work for God. The only thing that counts in this life is the people standing in front of His throne saying "She helped me get here".

For most people, God gives marriage and children as a blessing. Spouses help each other, and children are both a command and a blessing upon blessings. Your husband will help you and you will help him, and your children will be there when you both grow old. One sure way of having said crowd around the Throne is to breed some of them.

At a human level, a society that doesn't reproduce dies. Others have made this point better than I can; I won't repeat it.

I'll quote an article out of the Christian Standard by Paul Williams. If you think God wants you to do X and really want to do it, you might be wrong. God instead tends to say "Do X", and we go "Oh, NO, God, you can't really want that".

AA, I can absolutely assure you that God doesn't care one bit about that big career path. He might want you to go to college for some purpose to get you where He would like for you to be (and he might not), but he absolutely doesn't care about it as much as you do. Right this minute, you're like a kid trying to decide whether they like the "Do Not Pass Go" rule or the Community Chest space, when the whole point is instead to enjoy the company of your fellow players of Monopoly.

Anonymous robwbright June 06, 2013 10:08 AM  

One of Vox's kinder responses (partly due to being patient enough with the young lady to explain himself well to her) - and very well reasoned and written.

Incidentally, a study shows that becoming a professional woman is dangerous to your health in the long run:

http://www.psmag.com/health/women-of-1970s-professional-career-increased-risk-of-breast-cancer-58095/

----------------------

"The researchers found women who worked as professionals in 1975 had a 72 to 122 percent higher risk of a breast cancer diagnosis than housewives and women in lower-status occupations...

Those figures are particularly striking in that higher social status is usually associated with better health. Why has that not held true for this group of women?

The researchers believe 20 percent of their elevated risk can be attributed to “estrogen-related” reasons, including “their later age at first birth...

A bigger factor, they believe, is workplace stress. They note that chronically-elevated levels of steroid hormones such as cortisol can “promote mammary cell proliferation” and increase “the risk of malignant transformations.”

-----------------

At any rate, my first fiance developed that girl's brand of thinking after we were engaged and she called it off to "live her life and have a career." She's now a mother of 2 and working at an insignificant job in an insignificant field an insignificant number of hours per week while her husband makes really good money.

Now I'm married to a woman who worked as a legal assistant for about 5 years, then dropped it to be a full time home schooling mother who also gives NRA Concealed Carry classes and runs a women's shooting league. She makes as much in one 12 hour concealed carry class as she could make in a week or two as a legal assistant... and has a lot more fun doing it.

Vox, I've said this before... I realize you don't care what I think, but would you consider dropping the boasting on your intelligence in seemingly every other post (incidentally, I think you're about as intelligent as anyone I've come across - and that's obvious even to those who disagree with your positions and think you're "crazy").

That said, perhaps you do care what God thinks:

"Let not the wise boast of their wisdom or the strong boast of their strength or the rich boast of their riches but let the one who boasts boast about this: that they have the understanding to know me, that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight," declares the LORD...." - Jeremiah 9:23

It's unclear to me why you feel compelled to refer to your intelligence over and over and over, as it's obvious to about anyone after reading only an article or two. I don't recall Michael Jordan constantly reminding everyone that he was the GOAT. Everyone knew it and he knew he didn't have to say it.

I note that people who don't qualify for MENSA can grasp the concepts you assert in this post and - amazingly - some of them got there without the benefit of your intelligence. As such, it seems that it is possible to "keep up with your brain even with a lower intelligence.

And you're obviously correct - your experience and observation related to these issues are far more important than your intelligence - which experience and observation would more likely be heard by young engineers than "I'm smarter than you" would be.

Anonymous Luke June 06, 2013 10:12 AM  

Chancellor, I can't view youtube or other videos here (on oil rig with throttled Internet bandwidth). Summary?

Bogey June 05, 2013 11:10 PM "If she has kids now what the fuck is she supposed to do in her late 30s to mid 40s?"

Duh. Be an involved grandmother, and great-grandmother should she be blessed enough to live that long. Or, of course, once her and her husband's kids have left the nest, she could go get that degree/start that business. A man whose wife has been a loyal helpmeet, bearing and raising his children, is likely to subsequently be receptive to a major life request. Further, as her testosterone/estrogen ratio naturally rises as she leaves her mid- to late-30s, she'll likely be more focused and efficient in such pursuits than she would have been previously (commonly observed).



Christina June 06, 2013 8:29 AM

Lass, I had a 1350 SAT BEFORE the test got made ~130 pts easier circa 1997, and no college sought me out. (Tulane only waitlisted me, and never took me.) Affirmative action is a wonderful thing when you're on the right side of it, and especially if you're unaware of it...

Blogger Alvar Karlsson June 06, 2013 10:13 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous rubberducky June 06, 2013 10:16 AM  

Don't listen to the feminists. Dearth of women in fields like STEM, military, manual labor, the priesthood, etc. are not signs of unnatural imbalances. Nor are they vestiges of an wrongly biased social legacy. These aren't wrongs or ills to be corrected. They are signs of efficient allocation of labor, of a well-ordered and healthy society.

Men and women are not interchangeable parts. We are very different. Modern notions of equality are insufficient to account for or to express the true intercourse of value between the sexes. Modern thinking on consciousness and on gender itself has a complete and willful disregard for actual biology at all.

What a big mistake. Young women today wreck their lives following the popular nostrums that emerge from these attitudes, trying to shove a square peg in a round hole. I've never known a professional woman who didn't become a first time mother relatively late in life (35+) who didn't instantly think she'd been wrong about a lot. Who didn't instantly think she "got started" too late. Who didn't frequently yearn to able to just stay at home with her child. Who didn't regret right away that she'd now have fewer children thanks to all that "wasted time" she spent pursuing what the feminists told her would bring her happiness.

It's like a light bulb goes off. Bingo. For most women (and men, too), that moment a first child is born is an epiphany that's hard to describe to anyone who hasn't been through it. That's the moment you realize that everything you've ever done in your life and every other kind of thing you're liable to do afterwards doesn't really count for a hill of beans compared to what just happened.

Blogger Alvar Karlsson June 06, 2013 10:20 AM  

"The problem is that women are not only valuable to society, they are invaluable. They are necessary."

Do not the same logic apply to men being willing to risk their lives in order to defend society, as with regards to the draft, but I dont see libertarians support the draft?

Perhaps a society where women dont want to procreate is not a society worth procreating?

Anonymous Mina June 06, 2013 10:21 AM  

Vox is right, generally speaking most women who start in engineering do not end up in engineering. And the women who enter engineering go for the "easy" versions like environmental (sorry - but engineering, to me, are the classics: mechanical, chemical, electrical.)

In my experience it is because most women do not and cannot think like men. They lack the black/white, 0/1, on/off nature of engineering and they dislike the harshness of reality as judge and jury of their work. Women don't usually want real feedback, they want to feel good about trying hard and get head pats for giving it her all.

They do not want to suffer the consequences of bridges that fall down, or disks that cannot be recovered, or database electrons hopelessly jumbled into an irrecoverable mess.

AA: You might be one of the gals that make it but unfortunately you give away your "girlness" in your email. You are a lot more concerned with your feelings than with making your logical claim to making it as an engineer. I do wish you luck, engineering is a great field. But it isn't for everyone and women make up a tiny percentage of the engineering population for a reason.

Anonymous VD June 06, 2013 10:22 AM  

Vox, I've said this before... I realize you don't care what I think, but would you consider dropping the boasting on your intelligence in seemingly every other post (incidentally, I think you're about as intelligent as anyone I've come across - and that's obvious even to those who disagree with your positions and think you're "crazy").

No. You don't seem to understand how, when, and why I use it. The reason I utilize the rhetorical device is directly related to the sort of people to whom I am responding. Think about this: have you ever once seen me "boast" in a substantive debate with anyone?

I don't recall Michael Jordan constantly reminding everyone that he was the GOAT. Everyone knew it and he knew he didn't have to say it.

I don't think you know anything at all about Michael Jordan. He was the worst trash talker in the NBA. Even Larry Bird, who was not exactly a talkative sort, was notorious for his trash talking.

To quote Larry Bird, "that's what it's all about".

Anonymous rubbermallet June 06, 2013 10:36 AM  

Stickwick,

When you finish your curriculum, how would one go about finding out that you have released it?

Anonymous Mina June 06, 2013 10:37 AM  

It is possible for some women to do some approximation of the "have it all" thing. Remember that this is ALL that young women are being taught, for the most part. The feminists totally control the narrative these days and men have very little input "allowed". Go to HuffingtonPost and there are at least 4 "sections" dedicated to women ... STEM Girls, Women's Voices, Women's Health .. it's all about women who Have It All.

Yes it is sad how they being sold a bill of goods and how negatively it works out for all of society.

The good news is that SOME of them who are smart enough and get a twinkling on their own (minus having someone they respect showing them that there are alternatives) can be engineers, still have children early enough to have them, and still be convinced after having them that they love working and enjoy what they do.

It can be done. Does it happen very often? Probably not. But the "smart girls" probably have a better chance than most.

OpenID Jeremy June 06, 2013 11:07 AM  

Dear AA,

It is interesting that you take some pride in being an engineer while studying environmental engineering, a major of dubious value created by universities to appeal to political whims of federal funding and not commercial necessity. If you had said you were studying electrical engineering, my opinion of your choice of major and ability to study abstract concepts would improve considerably. Further compounding a poor opinion of your understanding of abstract concepts is your expressed belief that Vox intends on insulting you or women like you with his blog. This is a great mistake.

It is not Vox, nor any man with masculine values who taught you to feel insulted whenever the suggestion is made that women are most valuable to society as mothers. That was feminism. Feminism taught you to deny the primary value of your reproductive power to society and seek success in other life paths. As has been stated by greater men before me, the ability to consider multiple contradictory perspectives on an issue at once is the mark of an educated mind. Based on your letter it seems you have difficulty accepting the seemingly contradictory perspectives that while freedom to pursue lives of education and success in industry should remain open to females, such pursuits when pursued by the female gender en masse are actually quite harmful to a growing, functioning society. Keep this in mind as you register for your next term; Look for a class that seeks to improve abilities in reasoning through positions and opinions you may currently find quite foul.

So please, exercise your freedom and finish your degree. While you are finishing, please consider (using basic math) what happens to a society when even 50% of the women pursue anything other than motherhood during their prime fertile years. While you are considering this, please google fertility rate graphs for all developed nations for the past 60-100 years. Then please return here and offer some solution for a civilization where the women do not want to bear children when their bodies and minds are best suited to do so, because the consequences of that will be upon us in less than 15 years.

Anonymous Jill June 06, 2013 11:12 AM  

If I were this woman, I would not want to filter through the sludge of these answers. Many are respectful, and some are helpful, but that's not the point. It's a slew of anecdota, as well as analyses w/ no citations (e.g. Women aren't goal-oriented or introspective. What women are you talking about? What study demonstrates this?). Granted, I don't write blog comments as if they're scholarly papers, either. I like discussing my anecdota, too. However, I'm guessing, if AA even comes back, that most of that will be counterproductive. Far be it from me to guess whether this particular female engineer is capable of doing her job, being goal-oriented, or introspective. All the anecdota in the world won't prove that; one can make intelligent guesses based on stats, and that's about it.

It's her perspective that's off. It's a fundamental and society-wide rejection of science that's lacking. That's what needs to be dealt with, and it's not something that's going to happen at the snap of a finger. How did we, as a society, get to the point where basic biology must be ignored or suppressed? Why must women suppress their biological urges for babies? Why do we no longer desire to further the human race?

Why have the biological differences between men and women been erased from our minds? We still have eyes, at the very least. Surely, we can see visually that men are bigger and stronger than women. This fundamental difference has forever designated that men do the heavy lifting, while women make the men some food so they can continue doing the heavy lifting. When it comes to survival, it's really more pragmatic than it is oppressive. Why is one considered "serving" and the other not? Or, perhaps, it's that both men and women of the younger generation are too selfish to do anything for anybody. I mean, why should men want to do the heavy lifting any more than a woman want to cook meals? Why should they? They already have a shorter average lifespan than females. Why wear out their hearts? They have to; that's why. There are still jobs that women can't do with all the technology in the world helping them. And, of course, men can never incubate babies. Ever.

On a more psychological level, we've lost the fundamental work that occurs among women of different generations who help each other through life transitions (men, too, but AA is a woman). It used to be understood that life went through phases. We have 1000s of years of storytelling to back this up. Mother is just one of the phases; it isn't everything that a woman is. But it's still an important phase, even if a woman is infertile. She still must work through it. When that phase of life is rejected or skipped over, what happens to the mind and soul of the woman? It can't be good.

I'm sorry about the lengthy comment. This makes me sad because there is a greater problem here than this woman's immaturity. And her wanting to be an engineer has very little to do with it. If she were really, integrally, an engineering person, she could make her life work w/o having to be selfish about it (e.g. My dad was an engineer; he did contract work from home for YEARS).



Anonymous Luke June 06, 2013 11:14 AM  

Mina, why should more than a tiny fraction of potentially-capable women even consider becoming engineers? There are arguably plenty of men (more than needed) willing and able to be the engineers the market needs. Each slot in an engineering school, engineering internship, or trainee slot is one less male engineer there will ever be. (You do know that tuition is a fraction of cost to train a student in a technical field, yes?)

Good example of how this works out.

http://www.angryharry.com/esIstheTrainingofWomenDoctorsAWaste.htm

Not only do men engineers not drop out to take the place of women in gestating/lactating children(and FT raise them, as opposed to palming them off on underscreened wetback daycare), wasting their education. Each man in a family-supporting job strengthens the potential of families. By contrast, each woman in such a job eliminates one man from being a husband and father, while typically booting one woman (often but not always herself) from wifedom due to unrestrained hypergamy that can't be satisfied.

For that reason, there should if anything be a presumption against women becoming engineers, waived at most only occasionally for extreme talent, and then only when a woman is highly unlikely to become a wife and mother (total bowser/missing ovaries, say). Society wouldn't miss the latter two, after all, any more than it does most of the white women who habitually take up with ghetto hoods.



Blogger JDC June 06, 2013 11:20 AM  

My wife had stated her intention to continue working full-time right up until the moment she held our firstborn in her lap in the hospital in St. Paul, MN. Then and there she realized that her life-long goal to own and run her own Speech Therapy clinic for autism spectrum youth paled in comparison to staying at home at raising this gift from God.

We had to make some major adjustments...I don't get to drive a shiny pick-up anymore (although i will always drive a pick-up until the day I die), we don't get to go on fancy vacations, we don't have central air, we don't go out to eat very often...but as Paul stated, (paraphrase) I consider all the stuff I once valued as rubbish (skubalon in Greek - a dirty word, perhaps better translated shit), in comparison to infinite rewards of knowing Christ - and (my words) doing his will by raising faithful children .

But one finds that staying at home with the kids (and homeschooling in our case) is what God has put us on this earth to do. There is not more important role in God's kingdom than a godly woman raising children in the faith. I pray AA that you can learn this lesson without the pain that will undoubtedly come upon you when you realize your lofty goals are nothing more than a vanity that will disperse in the wind.

I pray that you will not have to come to the conclusion that your life dedicated to furthering your career will become forgotten and grievous and meaningless...may you not chase the wind in a vain attempt to find security and purpose in things that will die and fade.

God bless you in your journey.

OpenID Jeremy June 06, 2013 11:35 AM  

"It is possible for some women to do some approximation of the "have it all" thing...

...still have children early enough to have them, and still be convinced after having them that they love working and enjoy what they do.

It can be done. Does it happen very often? Probably not. But the "smart girls" probably have a better chance than most.
"

It doesn't help that the system in the U.S. seems to continue to push people into older ages before being responsible. High school, while useful in the past, is now simply a babysitting service teaching concepts that are repeated in the first 1-2 years of college. If kids were free moral agents at 15-16, and we demanded more serious involvement from them in their studies at an earlier age. If we remove the duplication in instruction and moved directly onto a trade after getting those 1-2 years of college in very early... then women COULD get the college degree AND have children before age 25 with no issues.

Unfortunately that is not the case. Feminism continues to treat women under 18 as if they should be under godlike protection from parents and the state. Feminism continues to insist that they are incapable of being responsible for their choices until 18. While doing this, they continue to insist that women be allowed to pursue college degrees and success in industry in the twilight of their best reproductive years, all but ensuring that many women will never procreate.

Anonymous Mina June 06, 2013 11:41 AM  

"Mina, why should more than a tiny fraction of potentially-capable women even consider becoming engineers?"

I never said they should.

I think I even implied that most of them who think they should shouldn't.

Anonymous Luke June 06, 2013 11:55 AM  

Mina, you posted this above:

"The good news is that SOME of them who are smart enough and get a twinkling on their own (minus having someone they respect showing them that there are alternatives) can be engineers, still have children early enough to have them, and still be convinced after having them that they love working and enjoy what they do."

That sounds to me a whole lot like advocating women still pissing away their most fertile years and most attractive years on something other than becoming married mothers. The traditional wisdom that women should largely only have the options to become married mothers, nuns (think celibate humble poorly-paid teachers/nurses at the highest), or prostitutes, so that most (thus enough) will choose to become married mothers, seems ever more required for a modern society to endure.

Anonymous Mina June 06, 2013 12:11 PM  

Luke: I see how you very conveniently overlooked the rest of the context of my post in order to show how your interpretation of what I wrote is more accurate than my stated intent of what I wrote.

Your interpretation is wrong.

Anonymous Sunny June 06, 2013 12:30 PM  

Just about everyone here disgusts me. Vox, and just about all the people commenting, with the exception of a few.
I happened to stumble on this blog yesterday and I have to say its one of the worst things I have ever discovered. I've found only one post by Vox that isn't completely infuriating. Which was his opinion on Abortion.
Everyone is telling AA that she has to see reason. To marry and further the evolutionary cycle by having children. The world is over populated. For proof of this, please go check up on China's policy on bearing children.
Honestly, who are any of you to presume to tell anyone what to do or how to live?
You're all nothing more than a bunch of cult members flocking to Vox who has an insane world view.

Anonymous Weary June 06, 2013 12:46 PM  

"For proof of this, please go check up on China's policy on bearing children. "

How does China's 1 child policy "prove" the world is overpopulated? I think public education just implanted that in your pretty little head.

Blogger WATYF June 06, 2013 1:01 PM  

Hhmm... let's see how this one goes.

Just about everyone here disgusts me.

We start out with feelings.

I happened to stumble on this blog yesterday and I have to say its one of the worst things I have ever discovered.

Unsupported assertions.

I've found only one post by Vox that isn't completely infuriating.

More feelings.

The world is over populated.

Then we move on to regurgitation of popular myths.

For proof of this, please go check up on China's policy on bearing children.

Followed by a completely illogical attempt to support the aforementioned myth.

Honestly, who are any of you to presume to tell anyone what to do or how to live?

Then we hit the crescendo with a nice bit of self-contradicting moral indignation.

WHO ARE YOU TO TELL SOMEONE HOW TO LIVE!!! NOW LISTEN TO ME AS I TELL YOU HOW TO LIVE!!!

You're all nothing more than a bunch of cult members flocking to Vox who has an insane world view.

And we round everything out with a parting insult.

She seems to have covered all the bases. And how about that handle. Talk about a misnomer. :^D

WATYF

Anonymous Samuel Scott June 06, 2013 1:02 PM  

Sunny,

I don't always agree with Vox (probably no one does all the time), but I enjoy the debates here because most people use facts, reason, and logic.

If you disagree with Vox, go back to his post and reference 1.) the facts that he presented and 2.) his opinions and the assumptions on which they are based.

If you can prove either that his facts are incorrect, his opinions are based on faulty assumptions, or that his deduction process is faulty, there are many people here who would be happy to debate with you.

Anonymous Sunny June 06, 2013 1:03 PM  

@Weary

I think you're grasping at straws. The reason for the policy is the prove.
You don't believe the world is overpopulated? Maybe you're the one who received a mediocre education.

Anonymous kh123 June 06, 2013 1:04 PM  

"Honestly, who are any of you to presume to tell anyone what to do or how to live?"

You're right; everyone here ought to operate as the rest of the world does and tell her to piss off after the like outburst, same as you.

Anonymous Weary June 06, 2013 1:05 PM  

Answer my question, Sunny.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 06, 2013 1:08 PM  

it was quite possible to work as a student and practically cover the entire cost (if you include summers) yourself, including housing (off campus) and food, car (insurance, gas, repairs were a bitch unless you could do them yourself), college fees, books, everything.

Yep, that's what I did. Worked 30+ hours a week, still graduated in 5 years. I remember taking a $20 bill out of the ATM each Sunday to do grocery shopping for the week. I wasn't eating steak, and the beer budget was limited (the old Triton Pub seemed to be pretty economical though). But, I never had a dime of student loans, and my parents were not rich. The University system was still leeching off the taxpayers then, they hadn't figured out how to milk students and their families directly yet.

For a $5k total investment, an Engineering degree back then was a great way for anybody - male or female - to spend a few years around some pretty good people, whether they did anything with the degree afterwards or not (and San Deigo, at least back then, was a pretty nice place to spend your early 20's). But at prices today, unless you've got a trust fund, I don't think you can afford to treat it like a hobby.

Cail, that means she designs and sells air conditioners. Literally. I'm not joking.

Actually, a Mechanical Engineer will design it. She may end up selling it, if she's cute and wears short skirts and doesn't mind flirting with fat, sweaty facilities managers for a living.

If she stays in engineering with that degree, she'll end up reviewing septic system plans.

Anonymous Chancellor Gorkon June 06, 2013 1:11 PM  

Luke, fair enough. The scene begins with one of Fienne's underlings informing him of a mouthy Jewish lady complaining about the foundation. She comes by and repeats the problem. Fiennes asks her if she's an engineer, and she gives her credentials. After a brief inspection, Fiennes orders her shot. She complains, gets shot, and then Fiennes orders the foundation be repoured. My synopsis doesn't do it justice. One of many great scenes, my favorite being the hinge-making scene, which I'll describe if you don't remember it.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 06, 2013 1:13 PM  

Wow, rereading my comment, I sure used "back then" a lot. I must be getting old. All I can really say is back then, I didn't use "back then" very often at all.

Anonymous TLM June 06, 2013 1:23 PM  

Chancellor Gorkon

The scene is so amusing because the idea of some WW2 Jew fembot running her mouth at the SS after likely witnessing their brutality in clearing the ghetto was pure Speilberg BS. Then as she's about to be shot she spouts her heroic "It will take more than this". That's why speilberg's movies are overrated garbage. She likely would have been pleading for her life or silent at that moment versus spouting off her defiant wisdom.

Anonymous Sunny June 06, 2013 1:25 PM  

@Watyf
First, you are utterly ridiculous if you believe that feelings shouldn't come into it and are therefore an illogical argument. However I understand it can be difficult for you to get out of the cult mind frame so let me try to put it in a way you'll understand. Vox is making his thoughts clear on an issue because its something he FEELS strongly about. You are making a point on something you feel strongly about. Trying to discredit me based on feelings is utterly laughable so I invite you to continue, it only makes you look the fool.
Secondly, overpopulation is most definitely not a myth and you're claim that Japan's policy is a 'illogical attempt to support the aforementioned myth' is completely incorrect.
It is not illogical. Japan's policy was made because of overpopulation... So I'm not sure I understand how this can be illogical. Therefore, I'm not entirely sure how to respond to it other than my usual laughter.
As I said, please, continue trying to discredit me. It honestly does nothing other than make me laugh at how you all sound.

Sunny

P.s. Yes. I used insults in this. Also feelings. Get over it.

Anonymous Mina June 06, 2013 1:29 PM  

No matter how women may wish it to be so, feelings do not equate to logic.



Anonymous Sunny June 06, 2013 1:29 PM  

@Weary
I wasn't aware that I had to seeing as its blatantly obvious but for your simple mind I suppose I can elaborate.
Japan introduced the policy for a reason. That reason was overpopulation. If an entire Country's policy isn't enough proof then I honestly don't know what is.

Sunny

Anonymous Sunny June 06, 2013 1:30 PM  

@Mina
I'm not saying feeling do equate to logic. My other points are logical. However feelings are not a bad thing to add nor is it anything to be ashamed of. Everyone feels.

Sunny

Anonymous Athor Pel June 06, 2013 1:32 PM  

Sunny still doesn't get it.

Anonymous Sunny June 06, 2013 1:36 PM  

@Athor Pel

I never presumed to understand peoples idiocy. However, I don't think that's quite what you meant so if you want a response please elaborate.

Sunny

Anonymous kh123 June 06, 2013 1:36 PM  

"Japan introduced the policy for a reason. That reason was overpopulation."

Oh; so that's why it's called This Island Earth.

Anonymous kh123 June 06, 2013 1:37 PM  

...And yes, there seems to be a whole post, dedicated just to you. It's not ever overpopulated with comments yet; jump in while you still have room.

Anonymous Weary June 06, 2013 1:39 PM  

I don't think sunny knows what the word proof actually means.
Clearly too short for this ride...

And I believe you meant China, not Japan. Racist.

Anonymous Sunny June 06, 2013 1:44 PM  

Alright, for the sake of arguments sake (and because everyone here seems to think overpopulation is a myth), lets look at this a different way.
How many people are in the world at this very second? Are we a dying breed? Are human's in danger of becoming extinct? Is there any pressing need for someone to HAVE to bear children? No, there absolutely is not. Which leaves people free to make what choices the like. AA can become an engineer, she isn't creating a big felony by not doing so. Neither is she condemning the human race.
The ONLY reason everyone here believes a woman should be at home raising children is because it makes you all feel big and strong. The caveman principle. None of you like the idea that someone else could threaten what you deem to be your job. Especially someone from the inferior sex, as is your opinion.

Sunny

Anonymous Mina June 06, 2013 1:44 PM  

Sunny June 06, 2013 1:25 PM: First, you are utterly ridiculous if you believe that feelings shouldn't come into it and are therefore an illogical argument.

Ergo: in the world according to Sunny - Feelings are part of a logical argument.

How old are you, Sunny? You sound a lot like my 18yo who just graduated HS and is experiencing (as my husband puts it) "her peak of knowledge - the point in life where she will never know as much again!"

Anonymous Athor Pel June 06, 2013 1:45 PM  

"Jill June 06, 2013 11:12 AM

If I were this woman, I would not want to filter through the sludge of these answers.
..."



And you would be wrong.

Because all these comments are responding to her and just her. All this attention, just for her. As if she is the center of her own little universe. There isn't a woman alive that doesn't hear the same siren call.

Blogger Bogey June 06, 2013 1:51 PM  

I dunno. Start a business? Go back to school? Write a novel? Tell you to fuck off?

The opportunities are limitless.


More limitless than she was in her 20s? When she had the time and energy? You never banged out any children of your own, and have know idea the toll it takes on an actual birthing machine. She should tell you to fuck off and do what she deems most necessary at the moment.

Anonymous Sunny June 06, 2013 1:52 PM  

@Mina

I actually laughed at your comment and not in a mean way.
I'm 18 years old. So while it could be true that I'm only seeing things this way because of how young I am, there are others who agree with me on the fact that Vox is insane as is those who agree with him.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Theodore_Beale

Sunny

Anonymous Sunny June 06, 2013 1:54 PM  

@Mina

Also, You are correct of course. I made a mistake. Feelings are not a logical argument. My apologies.

Sunny

Anonymous Sam the man June 06, 2013 1:56 PM  

Sunny,

It was China, not Japan that has a single child policy. Japan is trying to get their declining population to breed. You have it backwards

The difference between your feelings and Vox's opinion is something called facts. He made a contention that women not breeding will lead to a decline in a civilized society. If you want to be taken seriously, address that. Otherwise you come across as simply another chick who thinks her being offended will result in all men falling in front of her. That is not going to happen here, though many will treat you with respect if you can respond in a logical manner.

In short, Grow up.

Blogger Bogey June 06, 2013 1:57 PM  

No. You don't seem to understand how, when, and why I use it. The reason I utilize the rhetorical device is directly related to the sort of people to whom I am responding. Think about this: have you ever once seen me "boast" in a substantive debate with anyone?

To me it sounds like a classic case of Short Man's Syndrome.

Anonymous Mina June 06, 2013 1:58 PM  

Sunny, just because I have a current 18yo daughter and one who just past 18yo a year and a half year ago, both of whom are very, very bright and are both very, very sure they have all of the answers ... I was sure what I was seeing in your posts.

I try to point my girls in the right direction and since I don't know you, I won't propose to try to influence you other than to say: You need to consider how "the system" has programmed you to think the way you do.

Blogger Bogey June 06, 2013 2:09 PM  

..and besides women used to go to college to meet a worthy mate, if she's hanging out in the engineering department she will have a leg up.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 06, 2013 2:11 PM  

More limitless than she was in her 20s? When she had the time and energy? You never banged out any children of your own, and have know idea the toll it takes on an actual birthing machine. She should tell you to fuck off and do what she deems most necessary at the moment.

If she's going to have kids, having them in her 20's is a far better plan than having them in her late 30's. If you don't believe that, well, you're a complete idiot.

Which, you have the right to be, but nobody in their right mind should listen to your advice.


Anonymous Jill June 06, 2013 2:18 PM  

"There isn't a woman alive that doesn't hear the same siren call." That's exactly the kind of anecdota I'm talking about. Maybe she wrote Vox for attention, and maybe she wrote to him to "put him in his place." Maybe she was frustrated and/or angry and needed to let off steam. Who the fuck knows what her motivations were? You don't. Women do not have collective motivations and, even if she does enjoy the attention as you say, that doesn't mean the attention is productive.

And for fuck's sake, I'd like to see somebody--just once--back up this overpopulation idea with some proof, facts, something--anything. Malthus was proven wrong. A long time ago. As far as I can see, we have a resource distribution problem. And the Chinese are pretty much screwed as a society because they won't have enough of a working base to support the older population at some point, and they won't have enough women to correct the problem.

Btw, Sunny, I agree with you that this woman is a free agent. She should have the freedom to choose her own life path. Not everybody is made to marry and have families. And she may be perfectly happen with her choice until death. But that doesn't mean there will be no consequences to it. All choices come with consequences, even the ones involving writing to unknown--and somewhat infamous--men on the internet.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 06, 2013 2:23 PM  

Sunny,

How many people are in the world at this very second? Are we a dying breed?

If you're Italian, Spanish, Japanese, Russian, Uke, Czech, Korean, German, Greek, Cuban Bajan, or any of 30 or so other nationalities, the answer is "Yes".

If you're Nigerian, Ugandan, Afghani, Congolese, or pretty much from any part of Africa or the non-Persian parts of the ME, the only thing keeping you from overrunning the globe is disease and malnutrition.

As Vox said above, if overpopulation is a problem, it's not a Western problem or a developed world problem. It's a third world problem, and the most effective ways to reduce the overall world population would be to stop trying to help Africa feed itself and stop sending them medical aid.

That wouldn't be a very "nice" thing to do, but desperate problems require desperate solutions...

Blogger BoysMom June 06, 2013 2:33 PM  

Sunny--http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/01/11/overcrowding-nah-the-worlds-population-may-actually-be-declining/ http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2013/01/world_population_may_actually_start_declining_not_exploding.single.html

If you trust Time and Slate. The Ilk here have been aware of this trend for years.

Anonymous DrRansom June 06, 2013 2:46 PM  

Everyone is telling AA that she has to see reason. To marry and further the evolutionary cycle by having children. The world is over populated. For proof of this, please go check up on China's policy on bearing children. Sunny @12:30

Japan introduced the policy for a reason. That reason was overpopulation. If an entire Country's policy isn't enough proof then I honestly don't know what is. Sunny @1:29

This is hilarious. Trying to reason with this one will be like hitting yourself in the face with a claw hammer. Though, I do agree that there is an overpopulation, of these types of people.

Anonymous Mina June 06, 2013 2:51 PM  

DrRansom: maybe you missed it, she is a child.

Blogger Christina June 06, 2013 2:53 PM  

Luke -

Blah. I wasn't trying to say I didn't benefit from it. I was just pointing out that Vox was right about her not being likely to stay in it.

Chances are, I was heavily courted by (said small) school because I had a nice SAT score who had a declared major of Math and was female.

I took the SATs in 2001. I'm sure there were significant changes from when you took them to when I did, but not the same level to which they are at now. From what I understand, the year I took them still falls into the same range as the older exams.

Yes, I'm intelligent. I'm not willing to have a debate about it. I'm nowhere near the league of some people I've come across, but I'm definitely above average.

My point was this - smart girl, good grades, top of engineering field (small school...note the disclaimer), hated the job and left for something far more enjoyable... being a mother, not an engineer.

I'm more aware now than I was then about AA and what it results in... and I know I was a recipient of such benefits.

Anonymous DrRansom June 06, 2013 2:55 PM  

I didn't know 18yo was a child.

Sunny, you need to expand your horizons a bit. Stick around a while. Read, watch, and keep an open mind against what you are being told.

Anonymous Mina June 06, 2013 3:06 PM  

These days the kids are so sheltered I think of anyone under 20 as a child. That's probably just me. I know my two girls, 18 and 20 are still children - In ~most~ ways!

Blogger parselmouth June 06, 2013 3:08 PM  

"I got in fair and square. I didn't get a special grant for being female or any favors."

Have you ever looked at how much "diversity" has to be demonstrated in public institutions in the US? Have you ever looked at funding agencies like the NSF, NIH, etc. and read (or even worse, had to comply) with their policies on "diversity"? I'm not saying that you didn't get in "fair and square", but there is probably a great deal more machinery working behind the scenes than you realize.

"I have to work my butt off to get good grades in fluid mechanics, calculus, environmental chemistry..."

This string of words might impress some people in other areas. Here, amongst this crowd, it's more likely to elicit a response along the lines of "how cute...she's studying calculus" College calculus is more-or-less the beginning to real math. Take a look at something like information geometry. mmmm....crunchy, isn't it? If you happen to read this and plan on posting here in the future, a good rule of thumb is to assume that the readership here is at least as intelligent and educated as you are. This may not always be true, but it's highly likely to be true, and could be used as a guide to improve your written debate skills, at the least.

"I have had the opportunity to read some of the posts you've written in your blog and I feel very insulted by them."

Good professional advice for engineers: eliminate the word "feel" from your general vocabulary and reserve it for use only in the context of close family and friends...and preferably indoors, when the shades are drawn down. As VD and others have pointed out, in general no one cares about your feelings. If you are to stay true to your chosen profession, it's always good to remember that reality just doesn't care. I appeal to the empiricist in you to conduct the necessary experiments on your feelings vis a vis the tensile strength of a particular grade of steel, etc.

"My goal in life isn't to get married or to stay at home and take care of the children. I am not here on this planet to serve a man and raise his children. I have my own goals and my own motivations."

Bob Dylan in one of his more profound lyrics claimed "you're gonna have to serve somebody." I sincerely challenge you to think deeply on that. Work through the corollaries. Unless you're living as a castaway on an uninhabited island, you live within a network of people with attendant duties and obligations. Recognizing this is one of the great leaps in maturity between children and adults. It is, perhaps, used to the point of cliche, but there is a lot of wisdom in Corinthians 13:11 ...

"When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me."

Consider a "traditional" family where Mom stays home raising children and Dad goes off to the coal mines, cubicle farm, whatever. You seem to revile her serving her husband, but does he not also serve? His agency is constrained, too, is it not? ...constrained by his commitments to his wife and children (and even to the pet dog). In this case both Mom and Dad agreed, voluntarily, to limit their agency in the short term in order to expand agency into the future. The ability to think well beyond the now and reason abstractly into the future is a sign of maturity and is one of the key differences between us and beasts. Impulsiveness, selfishness, and the inability to reason abstractly are all characteristics that we associate with children and are at the root of the legal principle of the disability of being a minor.

Anyway, AA, I recommend that you stick around and at the very least check in from time to time. You're young and inexperienced but seem to have potential. If you're truly convinced that the evidence and all that is right and good are on your side, you have nothing to fear.

Anonymous Wendy June 06, 2013 3:16 PM  

These days the kids are so sheltered I think of anyone under 20 as a child. That's probably just me. I know my two girls, 18 and 20 are still children - In ~most~ ways!

I have to agree. It's hard to get a handle on life and goals until you've had to work for yourself and pay your own way. College and advanced degrees put this off for a longer and longer time. (And racking up more and more debt which brings a rude awakening and very limited choices in life.)

OpenID Jeremy June 06, 2013 3:18 PM  

Sunny.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_decline#Decline_by_nation_or_territory

Yes, many parts of the developed world are in population decline. The cited reason, on Wikipedia (if you had chosen to actually use google before posting you might have seen this) is most often "LOW BIRTH RATE". Look at that list and you'll see countries like, Germany, Greece, Italy, Japan, The Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, and many more.

So yes, women are rejecting their primary value to society, en masse, in numbers large enough to affect the population of developed nations. The proof is so obvious, you'd have to be willfully ignorant to miss it.

Anonymous DrRansom June 06, 2013 3:18 PM  

A fair statement, Mina. These days, you're probably right - but if I said something like that in front of my grandfather, I'd be in for a long lecture... ;)

OpenID Jeremy June 06, 2013 3:33 PM  

Just about everyone here disgusts me. Vox, and just about all the people commenting, with the exception of a few.

That's because someone else TAUGHT you to be offended at what is said here, not because you've actually thought through Vox's (or others) arguments first. You were TRAINED to believe that what is said here are malicious lies, you have not examined the points on their own merits.

Everyone is telling AA that she has to see reason. To marry and further the evolutionary cycle by having children.

No, everyone is telling AA that procreation is more important for women as a group than anything else. Your reaction to this blog seems to indicate that you find that opinion offensive. Tell me, what would you think if I said something like, "The primary value of men is in their paycheck." Would that be offensive to you? It should be if the other idea is. Societies work best when people specialize in what they are good at, and leave others to what they are best at. Men cannot bear children, so they cannot specialize in this aspect of building and maintaining a civilization. Women can, but somehow all women are being taught to postpone children until their fertility twilight years with the belief that there's nothing wrong with that.

If you want to complain about the burden of fertility on society, complain that real schooling starts so late in life. Complain to the government that you cannot start making your own decisions until you're 18 rather than 15-16. Complain that you cannot begin a real education + career until your best fertile years. Work to move the age of consent around so that women CAN take advantage of their earlier maturity.

Don't call men offensive because they are correctly pointing out that it is the females who are dropping the ball on making babies at the right time.

The world is over populated. For proof of this, please go check up on China's policy on bearing children.

Wrong. I already demonstrated this earlier. Population levels in developed nations are declining. The only developed nations that have a positive population increase have one because of IMMIGRATION, the U.S. included. China is STILL DEVELOPING. Once they've developed and internalized most of the feminist mantras, the'll decline just fine. Worse yet, their society will financially collapse because there will not be enough young people to care for all the aging people who cannot work.

Honestly, who are any of you to presume to tell anyone what to do or how to live?
You're all nothing more than a bunch of cult members flocking to Vox who has an insane world view.


Elders. That's what we are. We're people older than this AA woman who wrote the letter. There was a time when young people actually listened to what those who have more experience in life had to say. In those days, large batches of young people did not believe lies.

Blogger Calvin Dodge June 06, 2013 3:45 PM  

Sunny: "For proof of this, please go check up on China's policy on bearing children."

So government policy is "proof" of a problem?

Like China's policy toward, say, unapproved religions? Or China's response to the Tiananmen Square "problem"?

Sorry, but the fact that Government A has policy B is not proof that policy B is necessary, or good. I'm especially skeptical with regard to governments with a track record of slaughtering millions of their own people.

I didn't notice anyone saying "you MUST do this". I did see plenty of "talk to women who are 5-10 years older than you - see what they think". I also saw plenty of "God wants you to do X", which AA is free to deny (as well as to deny His existence).

Contrast the closing statements of AA and Vox.

AA: "I would wish you a nice day, but it would be a lie."

Vox: "In any event, I wish you good fortune regardless of what path you eventually choose."

It's interesting, Sunny, that you find yourself "disgusted" with all the people who simply offered advice and observations, and did so in a much nicer way than AA did when she started this conversation.

Blogger Calvin Dodge June 06, 2013 3:56 PM  

"The ONLY reason everyone here believes a woman should be at home raising children is because it makes you all feel big and strong."

And you know this ... how? I don't see a single comment which makes that point. Quite a few women have commented here, too - are they saying this makes them feel big an strong - or being women, that they like being small and weak?

I see plenty of "women I knew regretted taking AA's approach", as well as some "_I_ regretted taking AA's approach". Precisely HOW do those statements support your "the ONLY reason" comment?

So far all you seem to be doing is spouting the dogma that was probably force-fed to you in school. It's amusing, to some extent, but it won't persuade people who haven't already been indoctrinated - who haven't been "carefully taught to hate and fear" people like Vox.

Anonymous Ioweenie June 06, 2013 3:56 PM  

"Do not the same logic apply to men being willing to risk their lives in order to defend society, as with regards to the draft, but I dont see libertarians support the draft?"

Libertarians rarely support war or a draft.

AA, Sunny,

The fact that you are reading here and posting honest reactions is good. You may have the good sense to keep reading, to come back, to be moved/agitated, and struggle with what you read. You may have your curiosity or outrage piqued. Use that energy to really think and examine data and information (including data supporting positions you don't think you support). Try to understand how you came to believe what you currently believe. Challenge yourself to base what you know/believe on reliable, defensible data from numerous sources, not just those that support what you feel. And, use that same rigorous process to defend/or refute statements; broad declarations based on feelings and preconceived notions is not proof, nor is a government policy or position proof of sound data or truth (it is proof that governing/enforcing agents can exert force over others). History is rife with examples of policy decisions/laws - major actions that influence whole populations - that have little to do with reality or hard data.

You have gotten a good deal of valuable information here. There's nothing more kind or helpful than the truth. Keep an open mind. All the best.

Anonymous Orlok June 06, 2013 4:03 PM  

boss words Mr. Day. Thank you. Your kids will surely benefit from having such a wise father.

Anonymous Ioweenie June 06, 2013 4:11 PM  

PS. I'm a women who kept coming back to read here because I was really bothered by Vox's position on women. I'm not generally offended by opinions, and I had found much sound information expressed at VP (so how could he be so seemingly "down" on women?). And, for some time, I had been noticing that I couldn't cram my wants, feelings, and world view into the reality I was experiencing. At that time, I was then much older than you are now, so I had many years of things going pretty much according to my plans.

Reading here is challenging, stimulating, at times maddening, but always enlightening (some times pretty damn funny too). So, be open-minded and challenge yourselves to not be offended by other people's opinions, especially when they speak the truth. There's a lot to learn, but first, you have to be willing to unlearn; that requires admitting you may have been mistaken or wrong.

Anonymous PVB June 06, 2013 4:19 PM  

I loved that response! A veritable trip to the woodshed....

Anonymous sprach von Teufelhunden June 06, 2013 5:59 PM  

This chick is 20? Seriously, unless my kin, a waste of brain matter. She et al will learn in time. Either from within or without. We can all pray that it will be from within. The without method can be most cruel and brutal in this world.

Too many females in this world think they can be Jessica Biel in Stealth. Yes, I can both display a nice tight ass (with C-cups), and fly an advanced fighter aircraft.

Maybe so, but I seriously doubt most of you would survive time behind enemy lines, without multiple stress fractures. Therefore, cutting your career very short, after a few missions.

That is just biology 101 of the human female body. You are never going to change that without nano-genetic enhancement. At that point, you are neither fully a woman or a man. Chew on that reality for a bit...

Anonymous The Voice Of Reason June 06, 2013 6:29 PM  

“Not surprised a Leftist would see it this way. After all, programming is how all little Leftists are made.”


Your reset button is permanently damaged, anonagain.


“Still good to supply the honest answers.”

Please stipulate “honest answers”.


“These men are the pillars of our society and despite your protests...”

[Cue music for the most interesting man in the world]...No.



“What legacy is more important than raising children for a) you and b) society?”

Each person’s legacy is defined by the actions they themselves choose.

“They are being raised to respect a virtuous man and raise his children well.”


“The best and most complete way 99.99999% of women can make a very real difference in this world is by raising strong children.”

"Your kids will surely benefit from having such a wise father."


Indoctrination, my dear Watson, indoctrination.


“The two youngest, 12 and 14, are absolutely gorgeous and will be available to an age-appropriate, intelligent, authentic Christian man in about six years. Applications accepted at present, interview process to commence in 2018.”


Hocking our wares on the Internets, I see. What’s the going price? Willing to negotiate?


“She's still very young and can get on the path to happiness, if not personal fulfillment, with plenty of time to spare for a career post-motherhood in her early 40's if she wants something to do.”

Happiness is one in which a person finds joy in what they do, not what others say they should or should not do.

Anonymous The Voice of Raisin June 06, 2013 7:43 PM  

Oooo oooo California suuuuuunshiiiiine....

Right, and don't listen to anyone. Even when you ask.

Anonymous Rex Little June 06, 2013 9:30 PM  

Sorry if I'm repeating what someone has already said. I didn't have time to comment earlier, and don't have time to read through 200 comments now.

First, I agree that AA will likely change her mind about having kids. My ex did that at 29, six years into our marriage. (I made it clear from the start that I never wanted kids, and at first she was on board with it.) The biological clock does seem to tick louder as age 30 approaches.

However, if AA is one of the exceptions who never comes to want kids, I submit that she'll benefit society more as an engineer than as a reluctant mother who bears children out of a sense of obligation.

And if she does change her mind at 27 or 29, that's hardly too late to alter course and have those kids.

Anonymous anon June 06, 2013 10:05 PM  

Practicing Engineer for 20 years. Georgia Tech Grad.

Thinking back on Women in Science I have known....a list at random:

Case #1 : Ph.D. in Physics which took 11 years including undergrad.....lasted nearly 1 year in Industry, now a happy housewife with 2 kids. Husband is a productive scientist. She's smart but was miserable for 11 years + the 1 year of productive work she did.

Case #2: Masters Degree from Georgia Tech in Industrial Engineering. Worked in Industry for 4 years i.e. less time than she was in school, now a House Wife with 3 kids.

Case #3 Super Smart Lesbian. Ph.D. Physics....Serial Entrepreneur....multi-millionairess...Briefly became Undersecretary of Energy....Big Shot Director of multiple Universitys...on the board of several large corps....wonderful person, gifted teacher.

Case #4 My Old Boss....Ph.D. Physics....~10 years developing high tech before becoming a Six Sigma Black Belt...which is some sort of a management fad....very high income...no kids...had a cat but had it put to sleep when it interfered with her lifestyle.

Case #5.....Ph.D. Physics....Member of JASON Advisory Group....Mother, world famous scientist and pioneer...wonderful person....Mover and Shaker...

Case #6 Ph.D Physics...10 years to get degree lasted 2 years in Industry 2 years in Academia...now a housewife...

Case #7 M.S. Biology....married to a drug addict....underpaid and overworked...only breadwinner supporting worthless husband and 2 kids.

Case #8 Ph.D. Physics.....11 years of college....Initially burned out after 2 years of Industry but returned and is working as a productive scientist....She has dogs instead of children....

Anonymous The Voice Of Reason June 06, 2013 10:11 PM  

Looks like I have a stalker...

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