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Monday, June 24, 2013

Post-Christian pagan revival

You may recall that a pan-European pagan revival was something I predicted a few years ago ago.  Secularism is not an option because it has nothing to offer philosophically or spiritually; that's precisely why the humanists are always producing manifestos as well as books attempting to explain why it is possible for someone to square a circle even though no one has managed it yet.  This petty Greek paganism is insignificant today, but if they are successful in marrying it to the powerful nationalist revival represented by Golden Dawn, it could prove surprisingly popular.
In the last few years, though, some have come to distrust that prism, and to say so in public. While Church membership is still extremely high (more than 95% of all Greeks are at least nominally Orthodox) and the leadership is still highly involved in state affairs, there has been a resurgence of popular interest in the pre-Christian past. With it has come a small explosion of pagan groups, philosophical societies, Spartan schools, "Hellenist" magazines and performances of classical theater....

One of the most visible facets of the revivalist movement has been the campaign for recognition for the Dodecatheon, or "Religion of the Twelve Gods." The campaign has hardly been successful: polytheists have twice applied to the Greek religion ministry for official status, and twice they have been ignored. Coverage of the movement in the popular press has not been flattering. (The word many Greeks use when asked about the pagans is "funny.") But the movement has been attracting attention. 
Paganism looks funny from the perspective of the post-Christian, who has the benefit of more than a thousand years of Christian civilization.  It's not quite so funny if you happen to be sufficiently well-educated about historical paganism; there is a reason why "the Dark Ages" historically refers to the time before the coming of Jesus Christ, The Light of the World.

(The so-called "Enlightenment", like all Satanic inspirations, is nothing more than a cheap and perverted knock-off of the original concept.)

In any event, the history of the 20th century should demonstrate that pagan nationalists, particularly those with pan-European ambitions, are no laughing matter.

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130 Comments:

Anonymous FUBAR Nation Ben June 24, 2013 1:02 PM  

This is Sparta!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi6TbLmeFoQ

Anonymous Josh June 24, 2013 1:05 PM  

In any event, the history of the 20th century should demonstrate that pagan nationalists, particularly those with pan-European ambitions, are no laughing matter.

We are informed that Hitler was actually a devout Christian which is why he did what be did.

Anonymous TLM June 24, 2013 1:14 PM  

It should get entertaining when the hindus start practicing suttee again.

Blogger Eric Wilson June 24, 2013 1:16 PM  

there is a reason why "the Dark Ages" historically refers to the time before the coming of Jesus Christ

I must be missing some history lessons here, but I thought the "Dark Ages" typically referred to the time from roughly the fall of Rome to the coronation of Charlemagne, or maybe even the time of Edward the Confessor.

Anonymous Mr. Nightstick June 24, 2013 1:17 PM  

You remind me of a statement by Mike Ness: "We don't sing no happy songs."

Blogger RandalThorn June 24, 2013 1:19 PM  

Vox, the rest of the ilk, as a Greek guy and a Christian guy I can tottaly asure you that paganism and atheism/secularism in Greece go hand-by-hand especially in their common attacks against Christianity, also let me tell you this, THERE IS NO REVIVAL OF dodecatheon or any other paganistic rites in Greece, there is only a Christian hate disguised as revival of the old ways.

I cannot count the times I have played the role of apologist debunking the lies their father the king of them had them spawn in order to gain mindshare.

Anonymous Mike M. June 24, 2013 1:21 PM  

Josh, you needed the /s tag. :-)

This will be interesting to watch. I don't think the Churchians will do well. The Church Militant will conquer.

Blogger RandalThorn June 24, 2013 1:22 PM  

Oh, and to add that, some neoganistic magazines "like Apollonian Light" DID praised nazism towards the destruction of Christianity.

Anonymous Alexander June 24, 2013 1:22 PM  

That's a shame: even a pagan Greece would be a massive improvement over the current state of affairs. The nationalism that would appear to be a necessary element of a Hellenic revival would at least offer the Greeks time in the future to get it right - secular humanists and the resulting native demographic collapse/immigrant 'solution' doesn't even offer that.

Anonymous Other Josh June 24, 2013 1:23 PM  

I went to public high school in the midwest (Oklahoma) from 1993 - 1997. During that time, the majority of the students identified themselves as "Christian", even thought most of them were nothing of the sort... they at least identified themselves by that religion.

Talking to high schoolers in my church (still in Oklahoma), many of their public school peers claim to be atheist, are dabbling in wicca, or are curious about foreign pagan religions (islam, hinduism, etc.).

This kind of crap didn't exist even 20 years ago. The post-Christian societal transformation is rapidly accelerating in America.

Anonymous Other Josh June 24, 2013 1:25 PM  

Sorry, should be "even though most", not "even thought most".

Anonymous Stickwick June 24, 2013 1:26 PM  

It's not quite so funny if you happen to be sufficiently well-educated about historical paganism; there is a reason why "the Dark Ages" historically refers to the time before the coming of Jesus Christ, The Light of the World.

Nothing quite drove that home for me like the second-to-last episode of Vikings, when they went to the gathering at Uppsala. It was joyless pleasure-seeking, breaking of fidelities, and unspeakably depressing human sacrifices. Nine perfectly healthy and brave young men slaughtered, for what? People can laugh at and scorn the worst of Christian priests all they want, but the portrayal of the Norse priests was far and away more frighteningly cold, cruel, and nasty than anything I've ever seen in the Christian Church. As interesting as that period is in terms of its history, it would've been exceptionally unpleasant to live in it. God help us if we ever return to anything like that.

Anonymous VD June 24, 2013 1:26 PM  

I thought the "Dark Ages" typically referred to the time from roughly the fall of Rome to the coronation of Charlemagne, or maybe even the time of Edward the Confessor.

That's because you are maleducated. There was no AD "Dark Ages" and this has been known since, at the very least, the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica.

"The concept of a Dark Age originated with the Italian scholar Petrarch (Francesco Petrarca) in the 1330s, and was originally intended as a sweeping criticism of the character of Late Latin literature.[3][12] Petrarch regarded the post-Roman centuries as "dark" compared to the light of classical antiquity. Later historians expanded the term to refer to the transitional period between Roman times and the High Middle Ages (c. 11th–13th century), including the lack of Latin literature, and a lack of contemporary written history, general demographic decline, limited building activity and material cultural achievements in general. Later historians and writers picked up the concept, and popular culture has further expanded on it as a vehicle to depict the Middle Ages as a time of backwardness, extending its pejorative use and expanding its scope."

Basically, it never meant anything more than a particular Italian's lamentation for the fall of Rome.

Anonymous Azimus June 24, 2013 1:29 PM  

Too soon for Greece - they walk in the footsteps of Paul and the church fathers. I expect the tide of serious paganism to first flow from the high water marks of Christianity in Europe - think Russia, Baltic States, Scandinavia, etc., even Great Britain.

Anonymous Samson J. June 24, 2013 1:33 PM  

Nothing quite drove that home for me like the second-to-last episode of Vikings, when they went to the gathering at Uppsala.

What show was this? Can you give me a link or something? My wife and I have been looking for good stuff to watch, and we like things that contain good "worldview lessons".

Anonymous Stickwick June 24, 2013 1:39 PM  

I expect the tide of serious paganism to first flow from the high water marks of Christianity in Europe - think Russia, Baltic States, Scandinavia, etc., even Great Britain.

There has been a recent surge of interest in the Bible in Norway; it is currently the #1 best-selling book over there. Although there are some troubling aspects to this surge -- the new Norwegian translation, which is supposed to be more "readable," may be problematic -- it's nonetheless interesting that the Bible is outpacing secular "literature" such as Fifty Shades of Grey in what is probably the most secular country in Europe.

Anonymous Sanssouci June 24, 2013 1:40 PM  

Was just an interesting (and apropos) article by Jung:

"There are people in the German Faith Movement who are intelligent enough not only to believe, but to know, that the god of the Germans is Wotan and not the Christian God. This is a tragic experience and no disgrace. It has always been terrible to fall into the hands of a living god.
Yahweh was no exception to this rule, and the Philistines, Edomites, Amorites and the rest, who were outside the Yahweh experience, must certainly have found it exceedingly disagreeable. The Semitic experience of Allah was for a long time an extremely painful affair for the whole of Christendom. We who stand outside judge the Germans far too much, as if they were responsible agents, but perhaps it would be nearer the truth to regard them, also, as victims."

http://www.american-buddha.com/nazi.wotancarljung.htm


I'm not sure if I should be all that worried about pagan nationalists.

The "Christian" churches welcome foreigners, even muslims, with open arms. Pagan nationalists at least love their history and culture and would be way more likely to give Europe's multicultural leftists the lamppost treatment they so richly deserve. Europe will survive a return to white paganism, but I can't say it would also survive foreign invasion and occupation.

Anonymous jack June 24, 2013 1:41 PM  

I still like the post where Vox was talking about the possibility that some 300? years of history never happened. Charlemagne may never had existed. That the date these days is something like the 1700's. I need to go find that and relive the feelings of mirth at it all; that mirth whether its true or not. If true, then an amazed mirth that such a fraud could have been perpetrated on we humans. If untrue then amazement at the creativeness of certain people and groups.

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian, King of Aquilonia June 24, 2013 1:44 PM  

Samson J -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikings_%28TV_series%29

Anonymous cheddarman June 24, 2013 1:44 PM  

Samson J., the History channel had an 8 week series called "vikings"
and it available on DVD. It did a good job of showing aspects of viking paganism, including human sacrifice.

Anonymous Josh June 24, 2013 1:44 PM  

Europe will survive a return to white paganism

But civilization in Europe will not

Anonymous Daniel June 24, 2013 1:46 PM  

Speed-from-purity-to-paganism is frequently underestimated.

David-to-Solomon - Encompassed two generations
Noah-to-Canaan - Three generations
Adam-to-Eve-to-Adam-to-Cain - A single protogeneration.

No, the "purity" is never that pure, save the One, but the line between it and an Olympic Festival or a Death Cult was once drawn by a man's finger in dust.

Sometimes it goes slow. Sometimes it goes fast. To RandalThorn's point, the Darkness comes not because of its inherent capacity to be loved, but because it designs to snuff out an irritating flame.

Anonymous Stickwick June 24, 2013 1:46 PM  

What show was this? Can you give me a link or something? My wife and I have been looking for good stuff to watch, and we like things that contain good "worldview lessons".

The History Channel ran the first season of an original series called Vikings not that long ago. It's a dramatic account of some of the deeds of the infamous Norwegian Viking, Ragnar Lothbrok. It looks like you can watch episodes online, or they might be rerunning them on History.

Blogger tz June 24, 2013 2:00 PM  

Nazism was pagan, but something out of the mythology Wagner's Ring cycle used. The swastika is a hindu holy (or evil if mirrored) symbol. They had the whole bit with rituals and pageantry.

Atheists tend to become evangelical, but few pagans are really serious, other than new-age attempts at shamanistic magic.

But there is something in human beings that wants or even needs the mummery and liturgy (maybe social tribal bonding - something like Game if you go beyond the sexes).

Even without being evangelical, the pagans do want to impose their bacchanals (pun intended) on the rest of society.

Anonymous Azimus June 24, 2013 2:04 PM  

@ stickwick

I am heartily glad to hear that Norway seems, by this metric at least, to be returning to Christ. Perhaps they just skipped the pagan step of the pagan Christian atheist pagan Christian atheist cycle. Maybe that trigger-happy guy that shot up the summer camp shocked them past that stage?

Anonymous scoobius dubious June 24, 2013 2:05 PM  

"Europe will survive a return to white paganism

But civilization in Europe will not"

Civilizations can always be rebuilt. But once the white gene pool is totally lost, submerged under a massive tide of brown and black sludge, it can never be recovered.

That, after all, is the plan.

Blogger hadley June 24, 2013 2:12 PM  

Interesting that the leader, Olympios, traveled abroad to Sweden, had his primitive "Greekness" reinvigorated, and has now returned to Greece to preach his "back to your roots" religion. And (I suspect) to reject the consumerism and nasty behavior of the secular Swedes.

This is the same path followed by the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, that Egyptian dude who traveled to America, enrolled at Evergreen College (?) and was disgusted by all the whirling, touching, giddy dancing at a Christian student group's square dance back in 1947. He returned to Egypt and immediately started preaching his fire-and-brimstone Mohammedanism in reaction.

Is there something about Western secularism that triggers this huge immune response?

And why didn't they react like Obama Senior and all the other throbbing African peens that came 15 years later and had way more fun wallowing in their new-found freedom to pork all the cheap-n-easy white wimminz?

It really does caution against letting African and Muslim peens into the USA. Either reaction is equally bad for us.

Anonymous Athor Pel June 24, 2013 2:16 PM  

That just what we need, a good old Dionysian mob rampage.

Anonymous Josh June 24, 2013 2:21 PM  

Is there something about Western secularism that triggers this huge immune response?

Yes. Francis Schaefer talked about how the roots of the counterculture in America were a reaction to the plastic culture that had been built following world war two.

Blogger Jordan179 June 24, 2013 2:22 PM  

"Dark Ages" is usually used for the time between the Fall of the Western Roman Empire (5th century) and the rise of High Medievalism (10th century), inclusive. Generally, the division for the West works something like this:

High Antiquity (Minoan-Mycenaean): ?-11th century BC

Classical Dark Ages: 10th century BC - 7th century BC

Classical Mediterranean: 6th century BC - 4th century AD

Dark Ages: 5th century AD to 10th century AD

High Medieval: 11th-12th century AD

Renaissance: 13th-15th century AD

Modern: 16th century AD - present

though of course authors differ, as these divisions are somewhat arbitrary.

The one you're proposing sounds more like the Muslim concept of the "Age of Darkness" preceding the Prophet, may eternal war and suffering be upon him.

Blogger Jordan179 June 24, 2013 2:24 PM  

Oh, and of course the time scale is different outside the Mediterranean and Western European world: for instance, the Muslim equivalent of Classical civilization occurs at around the same time as our later Dark Ages, with a Dark Ages ensuing upon the Mongol conquests and something of a Renaissance under the Turks (ultimately aborted by the intellectual limitations of Islam as a philosophy).

Anonymous dh June 24, 2013 2:25 PM  

(The so-called "Enlightenment", like all Satanic inspirations, is nothing more than a cheap and perverted knock-off of the original concept.)

Can you expand on this a little bit? I am not exactly surprised to hear you say this, however, it is a little bit odd from where sit. I am far more accustomed to hearing nationalists, libertarians, and others current-American dissenters associate the Enlightenment with the founding of the United States, and it's governing structure and foundation documents. Almost all conservatives who are educated have a positive association of the Enlightenment, as far as I can tell.

I can't recall anytime in which you really went to town on the sort of original American vision as envisioned by the founders.

Anonymous ivvenalis June 24, 2013 2:27 PM  

The knowledge of what paganism *is* has simply been lost, at least among anyone who matters. The Hindu example is there, but it has always been foreign to the West, and some of its more spectacular atrocities were stamped out by...Christians. Even an atheist who doesn't actually believe that the "gods" being worshiped aren't actually malevolent infernal beings should be able to understand that, no, they *really did* sacrifice humans to sate the bloodlust of their dark gods, that's not a joke that really happened, or the general cruelty, or the debauchery. But it just doesn't compute.

Anonymous dh June 24, 2013 2:40 PM  

no, they *really did* sacrifice humans to sate the bloodlust of their dark gods, that's not a joke that really happened, or the general cruelty, or the debauchery. But it just doesn't compute.

I think we all see it, but alot of the left and others see the edifices of the corrupt Churches as doing the same thing in modern equivalents. Covering up child-sex abuse? The modern counterpart to historical or bush pagans cutting up virgins and dumping into a mass grave.

Anonymous sprach von Teufelhunden June 24, 2013 2:42 PM  

Vox, I certainly do not disagree that the planet is under a neo-pagan revival. In fact, we have some pretty reliable "smoking guns." Here's one:

Illuminati Sacrifice Busted!

However, it is even more than you describe. I hope most here are beyond the "Sunday School" level. Get out your most handy copy of Screwtape Letters, and read Chapter 8. Then watch this, and compare/contrast. In fact, juxtapose the senior Demon, Screwtape, with characterizations made via the brave lady in the youtube video.

If Lewis were alive today, having access to the internet, continuing to write. He would be an internet star, of the likes of Fr. Malachi Martin. He would probably, still having survived to near present times, met same/similar demise as Fr. Martin, if he spoke in such ways as Martin et al. [1]

I imagine him now, looking down from Paradise, though he cannot directly communicate with us, is presently enjoying the best popcorn in the universe...



-----------
[1] Upon further examination of the timeline of Lewis' failing health, and then full recovery, then finale lapse, this does not appear to be of entirely natural causes. We will never know, without complete autopsy report, especially a full toxicology screen. I don't count it a mere coincidence, that Lewis died on the exact same day that JFK was assassinated. (as was A. Huxley; the DO sacrifice their own; remember, we are ALL cattle to them) November 22nd, is in accordance with the Satanic Calendar (factor of 11). The "Prince of the Power of the Air" is in control of temporal matters until Judgement Day.

Anonymous dh June 24, 2013 2:42 PM  

This kind of crap didn't exist even 20 years ago. The post-Christian societal transformation is rapidly accelerating in America.

Just curious, are you extremely popular or above average good looking? Did you have a lot of friends? How does this compare to those you are talking with now?

Anonymous Matt Strictland June 24, 2013 2:45 PM  

A good chunk of the troubles we face now could be laid at at the feet of Christianity with its enjoinder to missionary work and its squishy globalism. A harder Pagan zero sum tribalism might be a good short term antidote for that muddled thinking. Pagans of a folkish sort certainly do not y to carry White Mans burden and are a lot less likely to try and import say Somalis into their lands for reasons of compassion.

Also the Celtic folk, Rome and Greece were advanced powers with philosophy, technology and workable, at least marginally stable political systems some of which would be recognizable at least in part to us long before Christianity was imported from the Middle East.

If there were to return in Europe or the white parts of the Americas to a more modern version of those ancient ways, the civilization we call Christendom with its pretense to globalism and universalism would shrivel but the civilization we call Europe would be fine.

And I'll note its highly unlikely human sacrifice would return, it wasn't all that common at any point,outside maybe of neolithic Malta in an era that may have predated what we know as Judaism much less Christianity and no Pagans in modern Europe seem to have a lot of interest in throwing people into bogs

Anonymous RedJack June 24, 2013 2:47 PM  

dh
The trouble is, as you unpack what the "enlightenment" really was, the lusture wears thin. As a Lutheran, the whole time is viewed as an attempt to restart paganism and (in my Grandpa's day) as the start of what is sometimes called Feemasonary.

In short, it was the beggining of the shift to remove Christ from Chirstendom.

Now Vox will have a much more detailed response I am sure, but that is my quick and dirty take.

Anonymous Josh June 24, 2013 2:48 PM  

. I don't count it a mere coincidence, that Lewis died on the exact same day that JFK was assassinated. (as was A. Huxley; the DO sacrifice their own; remember, we are ALL cattle to them) November 22nd, is in accordance with the Satanic Calendar (factor of 11). The "Prince of the Power of the Air" is in control of temporal matters until Judgement Day.

Dude...put down the bong...

Blogger Elusive Wapiti June 24, 2013 2:49 PM  

Not just in Europe, either. "Religious accommodation" is the watchword in the Services these days...to the point that making room for military members to celebrate the Solstice and other Pagan/Druid holy days is on the same plane/level as Easter, Ash Wednesday, Eid, and Rosh Hashonah.

Blogger CarpeOro June 24, 2013 2:49 PM  

Reviewing the French Revolution and the Terror, I'll admit to have forgotten that the Jacobins recognized the need to fill the void left by the Christian faith with some kind of religion. They very clearly fall into a neo-pagan nationalist mindset with the religion they tried to cobble together as a replacement.

Knowledge of the past? The Greek legend of Damon and Pythias at least got a minor amount of recognition for the names. It came up in conversation with a younger guy and an older one (mid 50s) and neither had a clue. Considering the recent news stories, a very relevant story for today's world in its' details.

Anonymous Josh June 24, 2013 2:52 PM  

And I'll note its highly unlikely human sacrifice would return, it wasn't all that common at any point,outside maybe of neolithic Malta in an era that may have predated what we know as Judaism much less Christianity and no Pagans in modern Europe seem to have a lot of interest in throwing people into bogs

Right, because euthanasia isn't making any headway in Europe at all...

Blogger JDC June 24, 2013 2:54 PM  

@ivvenalis - I agree with your overall sentiment, that that the Hindu atrocities (and I add other pagan atrocities - Vikings not withstanding) are foreign to the West, (and although you weren't addressing this), I would add that although Hindu atrocities are willfully ignored, Hindu spiritualism is alive and well in the U.S.

"The Rig Veda, the most ancient Hindu scripture, says this: "Truth is One, but the sages speak of it by many names." A Hindu believes there are many paths to God. Jesus is one way, the Qur'an is another, yoga practice is a third. None is better than any other; all are equal." (SOURCE)

Forget the masses who cling to cafeteria Christianity/spirituality, there appears to be a discernible shift in mainstream Christianity towards this line of thinking, "Christianity is one amongst many truths." It seems today that stating that Christianity is the one and only way to God is intolerant and short-sighted. Perhaps, even akin to hate-speech (after all, as Christians our first task is to be nice...I mean, that's the point of the Good Samaritan parable right?).





Anonymous bw June 24, 2013 2:58 PM  

The "New Age" is simply psycho-Orwell speak.
It is the revival of the "Old Age" - the ancient mystery religions barely concealed - and more and more not concealed at all.

Anonymous NateM June 24, 2013 2:59 PM  

Somewhere, Wheeler just came in his pants.

Blogger CarpeOro June 24, 2013 3:01 PM  

" Almost all conservatives who are educated have a positive association of the Enlightenment, as far as I can tell., as far as I can tell."

Only those who aren't really educated in history. Not only did the "Enlightenment" lay the foundations for Marx and his descendants, it was used as another tool by contemporary rulers. Look up "enlightened despots". Ever hear of the phrase being treated like a number? The good of the state above the individual? These are concepts that are pretty core to the Enlightenment.

Anonymous dh June 24, 2013 3:07 PM  

CarpeOro-- is there a legitimate link between the American founders and the Enlightenment? Is it positive or negative? I have not actually contemplated that there is a non-zero number of Americans who would sort of wish for a pre-Enlightenment style government.

Anonymous Gen. Kong June 24, 2013 3:24 PM  

Alexander:
That's a shame: even a pagan Greece would be a massive improvement over the current state of affairs. The nationalism that would appear to be a necessary element of a Hellenic revival would at least offer the Greeks time in the future to get it right - secular humanists and the resulting native demographic collapse/immigrant 'solution' doesn't even offer that.

This is a good point. I'll add that the vast majority of what passes for Christianity has actively sided with the secular humanist/anti-rayciss crowd in their program to herd all whites (including native Greeks) to be sacrificed upon their great bloodstained altar of equality and tolerance. I don't know how true this is of the Orthodox in the Greek okrug of the EUSSR, but it is very much that way here in the Banksta Banana Republick of Amurika. There is no church militant. As with the Boy Scouts, Gramsci's legions have largely completed their long march through the churches - even the "conservative" ones - at this stage. For there to even be a church militant, the entire rotten counterfeit "Enlightenment" would have to be rejected.

Anonymous Earl June 24, 2013 3:26 PM  

Non-xero numbers r 4 fags

Anonymous JartStar June 24, 2013 3:35 PM  

I have not actually contemplated that there is a non-zero number of Americans who would sort of wish for a pre-Enlightenment style government.

I think there'd be more than zero Catholics who would be fine with a monarchy.

Anonymous a. greek philosopher June 24, 2013 3:36 PM  

Plato is calling in from beyond:

"Excited for the return of Man-Boy love!"

Easy, big P. It's not quite legal yet...

OpenID jeffreyquick June 24, 2013 3:44 PM  

Azimus: " I expect the tide of serious paganism to first flow from the high water marks of Christianity in Europe - think Russia, Baltic States, Scandinavia, etc.,"

There's been a strong Pagan revival movement in the Baltics (Romuva and others) which has tended to align with nationalists. There were a lot of folkways at the ends of the roads that survived long enough to be recorded in the media age. There was nothing anti-Christian in the materials I've seen, but it wouldn't take much for that to enter in, given the Baltic Crusades. The Lithuanian religion lasted longer than one would expect; they mellowed some of their more objectionable practices, and the Lithuanian dukes were adept at playing Catholic and Orthodox against each other.

Anonymous sprach von Teufelhunden June 24, 2013 3:53 PM  

dh,

Get yourself a copy of:

Secret Mysteries of America's Beginnings: The New Atlantis

then follow that with:

Riddles in Stone: The Secret Architecture of Washington D.C.

by Pinto and Bay

You will need to carve out about six hours of your discretionary time. Then again, do you really want to know?


* Special BONUS for Lutherans (and like minds). In 88 Church and State, Dr. Biermann (love that name), has some interesting things to say about Luther, Jefferson, Church and State, and the American Revolution. He pretty much corroborates my previous footnote. Luther knew, in his time, like Lewis, in his time, what was really going on, especially behind the scenes. They were both brilliant men of God. The founders, especially Madison and Jefferson, as much as they thought they agreed with and understood Luther, did not probably comprehend half of what he meant. Bonhoeffer certainly did. He paid the ultimate price for his comprehension.

Anonymous Steve June 24, 2013 3:56 PM  

Ok,I have something to say to both sides of this debate.

First of all, the kind of paganism that is being advocated is not the scary baby-sacrificing devil worship the fervently Christian are imagining here.

Second, the kind of paganism that is being advocated is not the enlightened state-building organizational influence the rest of you are imagining.

The second kind of paganism, the traditional Hellenic (among various other regional faiths) kind that celebrates heroes,do-gooders, and folkish community was a good thing. A lot of very "civilized" developments came out of it. Western medicine,mathematics,philosophy,etc.

But this is not the paganism embraced by the vast majority who are advocating a "revival of paganism". What they are advocating is no less than draping the mantle of official religion on their Cathedral beliefs which have been an unofficial religion now for at least 50 years.

This should be resisted with all the strength we collectively possess. Once their faith formally crystallizes into an official religion, you won't be able to blast them out of their ensconcement with dynamite. It is currently possible to point out their illogical hypocrisy. If they succeed at their current endeavor, they will be immune to that criticism for god knows how long, maybe 500 years.

Imagine 500 years of legalized pedophilia,murder,homosexual rape,discrimination against those who produce culture and civilization,and inept leadership by a group of people who couldn't produce a surplus of any usable good with a gun pointed to their head.

"Dark Age" would be an understatement. There is no word in the English language for the horror that is presently about to be unleashed upon us all.

Anonymous Josh June 24, 2013 3:59 PM  

What they are advocating is no less than draping the mantle of official religion on their Cathedral beliefs which have been an unofficial religion now for at least 50 years.

No. We will not be using moldbug's terminology on this blog.

Anonymous Steve June 24, 2013 4:01 PM  

As a followup, which I believe will clarify my point for anyone scratching their heads over my last comment, the "NewAge" beliefs promoted by the fools out there calling themselves pagans are short on Paganism (the good folkish kind) and long on Cathedral dogma about "all people are equal" and other nonsense.

It is a poison pill.

Anonymous dh June 24, 2013 4:01 PM  

s.v.t--

I have Riddles, but haven't read it. I will look into the others. Thanks for the recommends.

Anonymous Steve June 24, 2013 4:03 PM  

"No. We will not be using moldbug's terminology on this blog."


I'm not asking anyone to. I'm merely using a word for what we are describing which comes to mind. You understood what I meant, even if you found the word offensive. I don't much care whether or not what I'm saying is offensive, as long as it is clearly understood.


You may use any words you wish.

Blogger James Dixon June 24, 2013 4:04 PM  

> Once their faith formally crystallizes into an official religion, you won't be able to blast them out of their ensconcement with dynamite.

You underestimate the power of carefully applied dynamite. :)

> If they succeed at their current endeavor, they will be immune to that criticism for god knows how long, maybe 500 years.

Nowhere near that long. But it will feel like it. :(

> There is no word in the English language for the horror that is presently about to be unleashed upon us all.

Sure there is. Several, in fact. But hell comes close enough.

Blogger RobertT June 24, 2013 4:09 PM  

... the possibility that some 300? years of history ...

I think that had to do with Velikovsky's theories that reconciled timing issues in the Bible with Egyptian and other observations, the planet Venus, the temperature of Mercury, etc. Sometime around the reign of Saul. Pretty interesting stuff.

Anonymous Sigyn June 24, 2013 4:14 PM  

Here I was, in a good mood, and then somebody starts talking about the joys of heathenism.

A good chunk of the troubles we face now could be laid at at the feet of Christianity with its enjoinder to missionary work and its squishy globalism.

We already know you don't understand Christianity, Daybreaker. You don't have to keep proving it over and over.

A harder Pagan zero sum tribalism might be a good short term antidote for that muddled thinking. Pagans of a folkish sort certainly do not y to carry White Mans burden and are a lot less likely to try and import say Somalis into their lands for reasons of compassion.

Great idea. Let's encourage it. And if millions of souls have to burn in Hell for all eternity...oh well, it was a (human) sacrifice worth making. Sacrifice forever on the altar of today? Let's do it!

The nations of Europe survived for a long time--they weren't even nations before Christianity--without importing Somalis, you ding-a-ling. You're trying to lay the blame at the wrong feet, and I know it's because you hate Christianity. Same song, different verse.

Also the Celtic folk, Rome and Greece were advanced powers with philosophy, technology and workable, at least marginally stable political systems some of which would be recognizable at least in part to us long before Christianity was imported from the Middle East.

They weren't marginally stable. Imperial Rome was collapsing into outright tyranny before Christianity even became an issue. Greece was already out of the game. The Celtic nations were a bunch of feuding tribes throwing rocks at each other and painting their butts blue. Please.

And you left out the Vikings. My husband's going to have his feelings hurt at you. You'd better mail him some chickens.

If there were to return in Europe or the white parts of the Americas to a more modern version of those ancient ways, the civilization we call Christendom with its pretense to globalism and universalism would shrivel but the civilization we call Europe would be fine.

Lines like this reveal that you don't understand "civilization" or Christianity. "Western civilization" is PREDICATED on Christianity. "Europe" isn't even a concept that made any sense to pre-Christian whites.

And I'll note its highly unlikely human sacrifice would return,

Yet.

it wasn't all that common at any point,

How often does it have to happen before it's "common"? Isn't it enough for it to be an accepted ritual?

no Pagans in modern Europe seem to have a lot of interest in throwing people into bogs

Well, if they did, do you think they'd be open about it?

GAH.

Anonymous Athor Pel June 24, 2013 4:15 PM  

"dh June 24, 2013 2:25 PM

(The so-called "Enlightenment", like all Satanic inspirations, is nothing more than a cheap and perverted knock-off of the original concept.)

Can you expand on this a little bit? I am not exactly surprised to hear you say this, however, it is a little bit odd from where sit. I am far more accustomed to hearing nationalists, libertarians, and others current-American dissenters associate the Enlightenment with the founding of the United States, and it's governing structure and foundation documents. Almost all conservatives who are educated have a positive association of the Enlightenment, as far as I can tell.

I can't recall anytime in which you really went to town on the sort of original American vision as envisioned by the founders."





Read any Rousseau? Go, read. You'll see the genesis of many ideas corrosive to preserving civilization.

Anonymous sprach von Teufelhunden June 24, 2013 4:17 PM  

Josh, I'm not sure if you are worth responding to. However, at times you come off as someone who entirely gets it, and then other times as someone like a scared little child. Someone who refuses "tooth and nail," to exit Sunday School, when you should be well beyond graduation.

Tell you what. Prove your adulthood to me and others. Go research Anthony "Jess" LaVey. That is the son of Anton Szander LaVey. Don't hear it from me. Hear it from him. Tell him and Stew Webb, and Dr. Preston James, and Gordon Duff, and Mike Harris, and Dean Henderson, Glen Canady to "put down the bong." Believe me, we have ALL heard much worse.

Continue with your childish antics. Then I will be left to describe you et al, no other way than Gordon Duff describes those as "too stupid to live."

Comprende?

Blogger aaron June 24, 2013 4:21 PM  

So just curious, but was Auto-da-Fe a form of sacrifice? Or a just punishment?

Blaming paganism for correcting the excesses of Christianity is rich. If Christianity is responsible for our advanced civilization, then it must be responsible for VD's stock in trade, advanced technology, which has rendered Christianity itself moot in nearly every advanced civilization. Christianity's message of mercy and love is now used to bludgeon any attempts at punishment and discipline. It facilitates not just the dispensing of handouts, but also the near-rabid expectation of free stuff. Go and reread the parable of the Prodigal Son, where loyalty is ignored and profligacy rewarded, to wonder about the weaknesses of the Christian religion. This is because Christianity was birthed as the antithesis of the Jewish Messiah. From its inception it has been counter-intuitive.

Anonymous Alexander June 24, 2013 4:21 PM  

Steve, it will last no where near that long because if the underlying ideas of modern western, secular, egalitarianism et al. don't change, it won't matter in the slightest what window dressing they cover it up with - it won't survive its rapidly approaching confrontation with reality.

It will either make good on its newfound commitments to paganism - in which case my point stands: Greece descending into 500 years of the very worst barbarism is still preferable from the perspective of a Greek to simply being erased from the face of the earth in the name of egalitarianism: which is what will happen if you are correct and it is nothing more than a facade for what the modernists already believe.

Anonymous Sigyn June 24, 2013 4:29 PM  

You know, I've noticed that most of the people who are here to hate on Christianity have clearly never cracked open a Bible. They just go on faith from what they've been told about it--and then call themselves rational.

I'm getting more than a little inclined to personally kick the crap out of the local Wiccan coven when His Lordship takes over the region. What'll they do about it? Throw leaves at me and ask their imaginary gods to make my cow go dry?

...Ugh, these pregnancy hormones. I'm going to go lie down and wait for the violent fantasies to go away.

Anonymous Alexander June 24, 2013 4:32 PM  

Before I was a Christian, I took the same message out of the story of the prodigal son.

I do not take that message any more.

Aaron, please show where the father's love for his second son was diminished? Please show where wastefulness was rewarded. Had the prodigal son returned home and had not been truly willing to be but a servant in his father's home - how do you think the story would have ended?

Blogger IM2L844 June 24, 2013 4:35 PM  

Go and reread the parable of the Prodigal Son, where loyalty is ignored and profligacy rewarded, to wonder about the weaknesses of the Christian religion.

You either completely missed the allegorical points contained in the parable of the Prodigal Son or you are intentionally misrepresenting them. Which is it, dumbass or asshole?

Anonymous Obvious June 24, 2013 4:36 PM  

It's weird that I can't find any information about "the Dark Ages" referring to the time before the coming of Jesus Christ, The Light of the World. I can find plenty of information on "the Dark Ages" referring to the period of time after the fall of the Western Roman Empire, and I can also find references to the Greek Dark Ages from around 1100-750 BC but I am not finding any data or books the one that Vox refers to.

Can someone help me out?

Anonymous Josh June 24, 2013 4:39 PM  

http://www.charismamag.com/site-archives/218-peopleevents/news/682-alleged-son-of-anton-lavey-fails-to-prove-identity

Jess LaVey, the Barack Obama of ex satanists?

Dread, why would I go tell all those people to put down the bong when they're not the ones crapping on comment threads here?

Oh...btw...Bernanke hasn't been arrested...and Reagan Wanta Mitterand hasn't been implemented...and you said both would happen months ago...

Anonymous cheddarman June 24, 2013 4:41 PM  

Anyone out there with an understanding of what is happening in Russia, in terms of Christianity or a lapse into paganism?

It seems as if the Russians are re-embracing the Russian Orthodox Church, and their political leadership seems to promote it. I don't know what is happening with the average Russian.

My thoughts are that the Russians may avoid what Vox sees happening in Western Europe, especially if they look to their recent past. They had a relatively stable and prosperous society under the last Czar, before WW1. I wonder if they would desire to return to that recent past, as opposed to paganism.

Blogger tz June 24, 2013 4:44 PM  

I'm not sure what color knight, but he is in armor of shining irony

Blogger Nate June 24, 2013 4:49 PM  

"Tell you what. Prove your adulthood to me and others. Go research Anthony "Jess" LaVey. That is the son of Anton Szander LaVey. Don't hear it from me. Hear it from him. Tell him and Stew Webb, and Dr. Preston James, and Gordon Duff, and Mike Harris, and Dean Henderson, Glen Canady to "put down the bong." Believe me, we have ALL heard much worse."

Dread... You're not the grown ups. They aren't the grown ups either.

You're the table of rejects... sitting together because no one else will have you... patting yourselves on the back and convincing yourselves that you really are the cool kids and you're totally sitting together because everyone else is like... dumb and stuff.

Duff is either an idiot or liar... or well... he could just be flat out insane. regardless... he is always... and I mean always... wrong.

Blogger Nate June 24, 2013 4:51 PM  

"I'm not asking anyone to. I'm merely using a word for what we are describing which comes to mind. You understood what I meant, even if you found the word offensive. I don't much care whether or not what I'm saying is offensive, as long as it is clearly understood."

Its clearly understood by a few of us who've had the sad misfortune of reading Moldbug's verbose retardery. By using his terms you're likely to drive traffic his way... forcing other unsuspecting victims into his rambling needlessly complex clutches.

Anonymous Josh June 24, 2013 4:55 PM  

Its clearly understood by a few of us who've had the sad misfortune of reading Moldbug's verbose retardery. By using his terms you're likely to drive traffic his way... forcing other unsuspecting victims into his rambling needlessly complex clutches.

Only high genius can explain prices with ten thousand words.

Blogger IM2L844 June 24, 2013 4:59 PM  

Can someone help me out?

Search Humanistic Spirituality and Stoicism.

Blogger aaron June 24, 2013 5:12 PM  

IM2, I will be the asshole, and you will be the dumbass.

The parable of the Prodigal Son is about forgiveness. Can you take forgiveness too far? According to Christianity, no. According to reality, yes. Every drug addict plays the Prodigal Son game with his parents and at some point the father must turn his son away or keep getting played, to no one's benefit near or short term.


Anonymous Pope Cleophus I June 24, 2013 5:14 PM  

aaron said:
Go and reread the parable of the Prodigal Son, where loyalty is ignored and profligacy rewarded, to wonder about the weaknesses of the Christian religion.

You do understand that the father would have had to sell off his estate in order to give both sons their inheritance. Both sons acted selfishly. The prodigal son returned home to repent for what he had done, while his brother threw a tantrum and disgraced his father.

Everything, including the Bible, exists in a historical context and I find that a substantial number of Christians (and a larger number of pagans eg: aaron) have no grasp of history and are completely comfortable shouting their poorly informed opinions to the world. The sad truth is that tomorrow folks like aaron will do the same thing again.

Alas, those who do not learn from history are doomed.

Anonymous Desiderius June 24, 2013 5:15 PM  

dh,

Vox is, more or less, the second coming of DeMaistre, and he serves a similar purpose (among many). Berlin's portrait of DeMaistre would likely make for compelling reading for a man of your background and outlook.

Anonymous Josh June 24, 2013 5:20 PM  

The parable of the Prodigal Son is about forgiveness.

No you Mongoloid, it's about a merciful God who will save even the most vile sinner who confesses his sin and repents.

Blogger Lovekraft June 24, 2013 5:29 PM  

Just imagine how easy it would be, having twelve 'gods' to choose from, for progressives to justify any atrocity they come up with.

Blogger IM2L844 June 24, 2013 5:30 PM  

IM2, I will be the asshole, and the dumbass.

There, asshole. Fixed it for ya. I'll give you partial credit for identifying forgiveness as one of the allegorical messages even though the nub of that particular lesson went completely over your head, dumbass.

Blogger njartist June 24, 2013 5:30 PM  

@tz June 24, 2013 4:44 PM
OT for a moment:
I don't blame the male instructor/attendant: he could have faced sexual assault charges and dismissal; and besides, where was all that grrl power in the gym: were they unable to act: why did anyone need to run to he front desk first?

Blogger The Poor Schmuck June 24, 2013 5:35 PM  

aaron bloviated:
The parable of the Prodigal Son is about forgiveness. Can you take forgiveness too far? According to Christianity, no. According to reality, yes. Every drug addict plays the Prodigal Son game with his parents and at some point the father must turn his son away or keep getting played, to no one's benefit near or short term.

You really are ignorant aren't you?

What you describe is called Tough Love and it's when the loved on wises up and dumps the addict to the curb. This human dynamic is far different than what is expressed in the Prodigal Son parable. It also shows what an illiterate savage you are. Please go and take a remedial reading comprehension course before commenting further.

Blogger aaron June 24, 2013 5:38 PM  

Cleophus and Josh: History is a harsh mistress, as we will all soon learn. Christianity is a truly great epoch in the history of mankind, but it is on the decline and I rather suspect there is nothing you or I can do to stop it. Notice how VD lives in Italy, to some the epicenter of Christianity, but also the lone country in Europe that still maintains tribal identities. Steve Sailer notes that Italians are just as different from each other as they are from other Europeans, which means over the millennia they have in the main refused to mingle even with neighboring italian tribes. An educated fellow a few decades back wrote a book about the Italian way and called it "amoral familialism". That is, they promote their family interests at the expense of others. Meanwhile, many Christians outside of Italy will help anyone but members of their own family, sending alms halfway across the world or to those "in most need." In Puritan Massachusetts, it is unseemly to help a family member out with a job, for example. Amoral Familialism leads to corruption, of course, but in this day and age, would you rather be a member of a close-knit tribe or a loose congregation of Christians who welcome the Prodigal tribes of the 3rd World into their arms while treating your loyalty with contempt?

Blogger njartist June 24, 2013 5:41 PM  

@ arron "The parable of the Prodigal Son is about forgiveness."
The Prodigal Son is about the consequences of the worldly life, the realization of one's depravity, the return to the father, the repentance and humility of the son, and the joyous forgiveness of the son by the father: the repentance comes first.
On the next level, the parable is about the falling away of Israel from God, the terrible consequences of that falling away, Israel waking up to its loss and depravity, repenting of its sin and returning to God, and God's response to the returning, repentant son.

Anonymous Josh June 24, 2013 5:41 PM  

Christianity is a truly great epoch in the history of mankind, but it is on the decline and I rather suspect there is nothing you or I can do to stop it. 

Gates of hell will not prevail.

Bitch.

Blogger JDC June 24, 2013 5:42 PM  

The Father loses both of his sons in the parable. He loses the younger to selfishness, greed, and a desire to bang whores. The son realizes that his own flaws and bs were at the root of his problems - and deems himself unworthy...deems himself a loser - and comes home.

The Father loses the elder son as well. When the elder son realizes that his younger brother is rewarded for bad behavior - when he always did the right thing - he screams in anger, "I've been a f***in chump all this time. My little brother sees the world and I stay here. My little brother drinks and bangs whores and I stay here. My little brother blows everything, then comes home on his knees asking for a bail out and the old man gives it to him. The elder son thinks he's a loser because he believes his actions count for nothing. He believes his life has been wasted, that he is a loser and a chump.

The problem of course is that one cannot live on feelings of worthlessness or resentment. Neither one gives life.

If you have children you know the absolute worst nightmare of any parent is losing that child. The Father gets the younger back. Then, leaves the party to tend to the elder.

The father will not permit worthlessness or resentment to have the last word – he comes out to meet each one, and his will is that each comes to take his place at the banquet. Jesus is showing us the face of God – who comes to you, in your own sense of worthlessness or anger or resentment or ambivalence and says, “but you are mine.

The parable teaches us that God will not have you lost to him. Why does this unrelenting love of God matter? Because you (Aaron) matter. The experience of loss is real, the love of God is real. Your loss may dominate the present, but it’s the love of God that calls you to a future. Knowing that you belong and have a life, a hope and a place with Him.

So...if someone wants to go on taking God forgiveness through Christ for granted, continually and willfully sinning so that grace may abound...well, scripture has something to say to that as well.

There's my sermon for the day.

Anonymous Josh June 24, 2013 5:46 PM  

Every drug addict plays the Prodigal Son game with his parents and at some point the father must turn his son away or keep getting played, to no one's benefit near or short term.

So one hand helping one's family is bad, but then you say:

Meanwhile, many Christians outside of Italy will help anyone but members of their own family, sending alms halfway across the world or to those "in most need." In Puritan Massachusetts, it is unseemly to help a family member out with a job, for example.

So which is?

Anonymous Christian in Hollyweird June 24, 2013 5:51 PM  

If first world civilization endures after TSHTF, the kind of organized paganism I can see the the West embracing is a codified version of the Perennial Philosophy. The underlying spiritual drive of our new age is unification -- all is one. A counterbalancing rise in violent ethno-nationalism will only provide the casus belli for the final battle against the Old Order. Since the vast majority of the people will side with the globalists, I assume they will prove victorious. The modern man today is dissatisfied with his own decadence and enraged by his alienation from God. Thus he will never be able to properly contemplate transcendence until the Truth of Christ and all other legitimate authorities have been castrated and demolished. In this way his alienation will finally be revealed as an illusion and the rule of Christendom will prove to be a very long nightmare from which he has now awakened. Then and only then can the worship of the dark gods and forces of paganism rise once more. Now free to worship as he pleases, even the hard-core atheist will find himself enraptured by the satanic spiritual awakening sweeping the culture. I picture him swept up into massive rave-like orgiastic concerts that provide him with mystical ecstatic experiences and a gnostic liberation.

Of course the old mythologies will no longer do except for the most low church pagans. A new comprehensive, global mythology with a "scientific" basis will be needed. My wacky prediction: the Divine Drama itself will become the object of worship, more like panentheism then pantheism. No sacrifices offered to Zeus or Odin or Jupiter, but to the archetypal form of the All-Father within the One. Christians may worship Christ if he is regarded as a particular name for the Hero Savior ascended master archetype (Horus, Hercules, etc.). In this way there would be multiplicity in unity and the study of comparative mythology/theosophy/perennialism would be theological fodder for the high church priests. In the end the syncretism will somehow become systemized with sacred scriptures, liturgy, rituals, etc. A firm foundation will have to be established, perhaps by some future charismatic prophet wink wink nudge nudge know what i mean know what i mean say no more say no more.

Yes, I used to smoke weed and take psychedelics.

Blogger IM2L844 June 24, 2013 5:52 PM  

When the elder son realizes that his younger brother is rewarded for bad behavior - when he always did the right thing - he screams in anger, "I've been a f***in chump all this time.

Just to clarify, the elder son thinks his younger brother is rewarded for bad behavior when he was in fact rewarded for coming to his senses and rejecting further bad behavior. All the while, the elder son had actually been reaping the benefits of his father's love and support the entire time.

Blogger aaron June 24, 2013 5:55 PM  

Yes, I am an illiterate savage, but you are a poor schmuck. Christianity used to be just a religion. Now it is a religion to some, and a game to others. Once educated people stopped believing, they did not, and in fact could not, reject it wholesale. They decided to discard some parts and keep others. Christianity is the model for Communism and Progressivism, born in the mid to late 19th Century right as Evolution was putting the deathblow to Christianity as a common culture. These people discarded the 1st Commandment and kept the 2nd: Love your neighbor as yourself, wherein even your enemy is your neighbor. To enforce the 2nd Commandment, a large administrative entity above human reproach or assault is required. This is what is known as the Party in Communism and the Federal Government in Progressivism. Look at how our elected representatives now tell us what the Feds want from us, rather than telling the Feds what we want. Similar to priests issued from Rome. Most who call themselves Christians today are playing the game of Christianity, and are sawing away at the foundations of society in its name. Until you can put a stop to that, I daresay you are barking up the wrong tree.

Blogger njartist June 24, 2013 5:57 PM  

In Puritan Massachusetts, it is unseemly to help a family member out with a job, for example.

Proof please. As the Puritans were bible oriented, where in biblical Christianity is this principle? Where in Protestantism at the time of the Puritan migration was this principle? To not aid a family member in such a manner would be turning one's back on the family, a thing prohibited in St. Paul's letters because it would be a failure of one's faith.

This is not addressed to Nate as he was just quoting a poster.

Blogger aaron June 24, 2013 5:58 PM  

Josh that is a false comparison. Helping your son get a job is not contradicted by turning him away when for the umpteenth time he comes crawling back looking for drug money.

Blogger aaron June 24, 2013 6:04 PM  

Njartist: read Albion's Seed by David Hackett Fisher. It was common in Puritan culture to send children to other families to apprentice. This was considered proper practice to avoid any sign of favoritism.

Blogger IM2L844 June 24, 2013 6:08 PM  

Most who call themselves Christians today are playing the game of Christianity, and are sawing away at the foundations of society in its name.

I'll give you that one. There are lots and lots of pretenders. God said there would be, so it's not unexpected. If you haven't noticed, Vox and the rest of the not-rabbits call them out on a regular basis.

Blogger njartist June 24, 2013 6:11 PM  

@ aaron
That is not the same thing as not helping a family member in need by giving him a job. Apprenticing one's children out to tradesmen has a long European tradition long before Protestantism: you are simply describing long standing cultural practices.

Anonymous Josh June 24, 2013 7:09 PM  

Josh that is a false comparison. Helping your son get a job is not contradicted by turning him away when for the umpteenth time he comes crawling back looking for drug money.

What if it's the umpteenth time helping your son get a job?

Blogger aaron June 24, 2013 7:18 PM  

Njartist: you are correct in the main. However, significant parts of the Gospel can be read to support a general anti-familial stance. Let us concede that tribal bonds in 0 AD trumped general kindness and morality, as the parable of the Good Samaritan highlights. Jesus says that he will turn brother against brother and mother against daughter, and he was right. He redefined "neighbor" to make it include one's enemy. is it possible for a Christian to take this doctrine too far, to ignore family bonds to help "the other"? I believe we live in such a time. Many progressive Christians today more or less despise the people they are closest genetically and culturally too, and they can find plenty of examples in the Gospel to back them up.

Anonymous Roger T June 24, 2013 7:20 PM  

"Secularism is not an option because it has nothing to offer philosophically or spiritually"

Yet, secularism is growing as a way of being both in the U.S. and Europe. So it mush have something philosophical and spiritual to offer. If fact, given the evolution of American society from one where Christian teachings and philosophy clearly dominated society and politics to one in which secularism has come to dominate public discourse, politics and culture, it's pretty clear that secularism has delivered.

Blogger aaron June 24, 2013 7:31 PM  

Again, Josh, a family that has persisted throughout millennia, as Sailer's investigation posits, is shrewd, fecund, and able to cut their losses. They say that mob hits are always carried out by someone known to the departed. Those who cannot maintain the family's honor are eliminated one way or the other.
Here is the link to Sailer's post: http://takimag.com/article/the_italian_invasion_of_american_culture_steve_sailer/print#ixzz2TztQYiBY

Anonymous The Next to Last Samurai June 24, 2013 7:33 PM  

Me too. I believe Vox goofed.

Blogger IM2L844 June 24, 2013 7:44 PM  

significant parts of the Gospel can be read to support...

Just stop. Everybody gets it. Yes, significant parts of the bible can be and are intentionally misread and misinterpreted by evil wolves in sheep's clothing to advance all sorts of evil things and naive Christians everywhere are eating it up like hotcakes. That's what Evil does. He takes a modicum of truth, twists it around and mixes is with smooth sounding lies that "tickles the ears". That doesn't make it any more true than a blatantly obvious untruth that even the most gullible Christian could easily detect.

We are warned to be methodically discerning. Most Christians aren't and that has significantly contributed to our current predicaments as well as the future, but you can't blame it on Christianity wholesale. Blame it on The Liar.

Blogger Nate June 24, 2013 8:16 PM  

"When the elder son realizes that his younger brother is rewarded for bad behavior - when he always did the right thing - he screams in anger, "I've been a f***in chump all this time."

If you knew anything about jewish inheritance customs... you wouldn't have said something this obviously ignorant.

Anonymous dh June 24, 2013 8:23 PM  

Des--

Thank you, I made of a note of the recommendation. This one, and several others recommended here, are tricky because many have never been translated into languages which I try to read serious works in. English is fine with me for most run of the mill works, but for anything with a more intellectual bent, I try to find a translation.

Anonymous TheExpat June 24, 2013 8:34 PM  

Re: prodigal son

Yes, the father welcomed the unfaithful younger son back
Yes, the father had the fatted calf killed and rejoiced in his son's return

However, the second to last verse of the parable states:
"And he [the father] said unto him [the eldest son], Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine."

So the faithful and diligent elder son was rewarded, and while the younger son was welcomed back with rejoicing, there is nothing that says he regained his former status or that his bad behavior was rewarded with additional inheritance/assets.

Anonymous Rufus June 24, 2013 9:53 PM  

Someone: Christianity is a truly great epoch in the history of mankind, but it is on the decline and I rather suspect there is nothing you or I can do to stop it.

Josh: Gates of hell will not prevail.

Bitch.


This is why I love VP.

Anonymous SMERSH June 24, 2013 10:00 PM  

Europeans are civilized enough. They're good at keeping things orderly, playing fair, playing by the rules and turning the other cheek.

But times are getting tough and enemies have gotten in among us. Europeans need to get a little bit more savage now, more like their ancestors. They need to fight to keep what they have.

In the past, Christianity was capable of serving as a warrior religion when necessary. But today's existing, real life Christian churches are failing to meet that need. Many are telling European men exactly the opposite of what they need to hear. They're putting out a message that plays into the hands of the people that are destroying Western civilization.

A religion (or something quite like it) is necessary, in order to boost the social cohesion of Europeans and inspire them to fight together against the long odds. If Christianity drops the ball (and it has), then they have to turn to something else, be it paganism or even Islam. They need something to believe in.

If you don't like Europeans turning to Paganism then make modern, real life Christianity worthy of its historical legacy. As long as most of the real life Christian churches are arms of progressivism, don't blame people if they look elsewhere.

Blogger James Dixon June 24, 2013 10:17 PM  

> ...but also the lone country in Europe that still maintains tribal identities.

You know, I've never been to Europe, and even I know better than that.

Anonymous souvenir pernikahan June 24, 2013 11:14 PM  

you can't blame it on Christianity wholesale. If you knew anything about jewish inheritance customs, christianity was capable of serving as a warrior religion when necessary.

Blogger IM2L844 June 24, 2013 11:34 PM  

If Christianity drops the ball (and it has)

Christianity has not "dropped the ball". Individuals have. The truth is readily available to anyone who is willing to learn it. You can lead a horse to water and all that. Christianity is not just a matter of social psychology. There are very real supernatural battles for control along multiple fronts going on.

A massive failure to acknowledge that is part of the problem. People are fine hearing about God, Heaven, protective angles, miracles, saints and what it means to be a Christian, but they don't want to discuss the other ugly side of the coin. If God exists then so does His adversary, Lucifer. The temporal implications are staggering and relevant.

Anonymous Desiderius June 24, 2013 11:37 PM  

Isaiah Berlin wrote in English, though DeMaistre was in fact from Vox's neck of the woods. The work I was referring to is called Enlightenment and Counter-Enlightenment and is available online. There is also a section on DeMaistre in the excellent book Freedom and Its Betrayal : Six Enemies of Human Liberty based on the famous BBC lectures from 1953.

From the perspective of the ilk, 5 would of the enemies would likely be considered "Left". Not DeMaistre. Vox would not doubt be pleased to discover that Berlin includes Rousseau among his enemies and does a rather thorough (his specialty) job eviscerating him.

On that, Vox and I very much agree.

The Tabula is neither Rasa nor Res Bonum (apologies for the shaky Latin - rusty)

Anonymous Desiderius June 24, 2013 11:41 PM  

"Yet, secularism is growing as a way of being both in the U.S. and Europe. So it mush have something philosophical and spiritual to offer. If fact, given the evolution of American society from one where Christian teachings and philosophy clearly dominated society and politics to one in which secularism has come to dominate public discourse, politics and culture, it's pretty clear that secularism has delivered."

Meh, so the field lies fallow for a season. In case you hadn't noticed, secularism hasn't exactly covered itself in glory since it seized power/filled the vacuum created by Churchianity.

Anonymous Desiderius June 24, 2013 11:45 PM  

"Christianity is a truly great epoch in the history of mankind, but it is on the decline"

Heh. It was on the decline on Holy Saturday. It got better.

Probably prudent not to make pronouncements about the decline of a religion based on resurrection.

That and the fact that Christianity is both the largest and fastest growing world religion. Don't look now, but the Africans are starting to send us missionaries.

Good ones.

Anonymous The other skeptic June 25, 2013 3:28 AM  

In Mohammed and Charlemagne Revisited the author suggests a couple of interesting things that I think relates:

1. He suggests that from Constantine onwards (if I have read it correctly) that the Roman elites (except for one emperor, I think) supported Christianity because the superior fertility of Christians seemed likely to solve the looming demographic problem in the Empire. It seems that Roman Citizens decided that they did not want to have lots of children and they did not want to serve in the military.

2. That the Persian elites adopted Islam in their battle with the Byzantines and probably also the Zoroastrian religious leaders.

I wonder if Western Elites have decided that, in their battle with Christian leaders, and to fix the demographic problem, they will adopt multiple strategies.

One is to import lots of people from south of the border. The other is to neutralize those pesky religious leaders, who despite their peccadilloes, tend to represent the common man more than the elites do, and thus are an impediment to elite ambition.

Anonymous Toby Temple June 25, 2013 3:35 AM  

When the elder son realizes that his younger brother is rewarded for bad behavior - when he always did the right thing - he screams in anger, "I've been a f***in chump all this time.

The eldest son thought his younger brother was rewarded for bad behavior.

No, he wasn't. The party was all on the father to celebrated the return of his lost son.

How is this so complicated?

Anonymous Desiderius June 25, 2013 6:54 AM  

"How is this so complicated?"

It's scripture. Complicated is not the right word, but if it didn't speak to different people directly to their own experiences, it wouldn't be scripture.

There is no substantive contradiction between what the two of you are saying.

When man's justice (especially these days the "social" variety) comes into conflict with God's chesed, the latter makes a mockery of the former. That's what the story is about, and each of you is affirming one part of it.

Note that that chesed is never cheap, real repentance and devotion required, no matter how bad Churchianity tries to whore it out to its new Chosen People.



Anonymous Desiderius June 25, 2013 7:28 AM  

"What the entire Enlightenment has in common is denial of the central Christian doctrine of original sin, believing instead that man is born either innocent and good, or morally neutral and malleable by education or environment, or, at worst, deeply defective but capable of radical and indefinite improvement by rational education in favourable circumstances, or by a revolutionary reorganisation of society as demanded, for example, by Rousseau."

Berlin, from "Counter-enlightenment"

So Berlin agrees with Vox, who, like Jefferson*, does not distinguish between the Scottish and French Enlightenments (to make no mention of the American one, which was concurrent with the Great Awakening and thus was very much mindful of that Sin and saw itself involved in the work of Salvation over it). I would argue that the American flowed from the Scottish.

Berlin and Vox, being more continental, downplay that distinction.

* - Vox loathes Smith as much as Rousseau, Jefferson was all good with it all as far as I can tell. Modern conservatism loves Smith in theory and Rousseau in practice.

Anonymous SMERSH June 25, 2013 9:16 AM  

"Don't look now, but the Africans are starting to send us missionaries."

Yes, what Europe needs right now is more Africans

Blogger Beth June 25, 2013 10:12 AM  

"And I'll note its highly unlikely human sacrifice would return, it wasn't all that common at any point,outside maybe of neolithic Malta in an era that may have predated what we know as Judaism much less Christianity and no Pagans in modern Europe seem to have a lot of interest in throwing people into bogs"

Ahem...abortion on demand...ahem...nothing to see there, move along now.

Blogger JDC June 25, 2013 10:57 AM  

@Toby
Quote: No, he wasn't. The party was all on the father to celebrated the return of his lost son.

It's not complicated at all, you seem to be saying that I thought the elder son's complaint was valid, when I did not.

Anonymous Other Josh June 25, 2013 11:53 AM  

Christianity is in decline? Ha! Not even. It only depends on the area of the globe you are examining.

China, Africa, the Middle East - Christianity is exploding. Thousands & thousands are converting to Christ. The church is rapidly growing, even though it may be suffering severe persecution.

In the west & Europe, Christianity is in decline.

The light of Christ is growing in the dark areas of the globe. The areas that once possessed that light are growing dark.

Which begs the question: a couple hundred years from now, which parts of the globe will be "civilized"?

Anonymous Desiderius June 25, 2013 12:16 PM  

"Yes, what Europe needs right now is more Africans"

Aye, if they preach Christ crucified and risen in glory and power over Sin, that is exactly what they need.

I don't see many Europeans doing so at the moment.

"China, Africa, the Middle East - Christianity is exploding. Thousands & thousands are converting to Christ. The church is rapidly growing, even though it may be suffering severe persecution."

Even though? What religion were you talking about again?

Severe persecution is its bread and butter.

More than conquerors.

Anonymous Luke June 25, 2013 2:18 PM  

Re nobody throwing anybody into bogs these days:
the experience of millions of American men in divorce courts, such as those ending up shorn of all property and ordered to pay >100% of their income on a continuing basis, would be a fair legal equivalent.

Re socialism/political correctness "working", given its appeal for >40 years:
think of how addiction to heroin or high-stakes (relative to income) gambling commonly "works" -- and how those end. Socialism/feminism are get-something-for-nothing scams, just as the Sexual Revolution is a "do what you want, it's okay now, there'll be no consequences". All are horrifically destructive lies, Satanic in their extent and severity IMO. The wages of sin are what, again?

I suggest reading Kipling's poem "Gods of the Copybook Headings", for those who insist upon a secular allegory on how this works, over and over, through history.

Blogger Shannon June 25, 2013 9:29 PM  

No human sacrifice? Babies continue to be sacrificed at incredible rates...for money, for relationships, for happiness...

Blogger Scott June 26, 2013 1:03 AM  

Paganism is but one of many death throes Greece exhibits; at best a distraction from the painful and growing reality that it's a terminally ill country. Whatever the case they'll find their way back to God w t s h t f.

Blogger Laguna Beach Fogey June 26, 2013 10:28 AM  

I can imagine our Pagan ancestors saying the same thing about the early Christians. lol

I for one welcome this development. I've noted the rise of Pagan beliefs in the Nationalist community for at least 15 years.

Anonymous Educated Professor June 26, 2013 3:44 PM  

Jesus was a human being. He was a Jew. His audience was Jewish. He was calling Jews to be more Jewish - to be ultra-Jewish - because time was running out. God would soon implement a new reign on earth. Jesus was something of the monomaniac. (Jesus' family, it will be recalled, saw something of it.)

So, how did the ultra-observant Jew get turned into a cosmic savior? Answer: Paul, who understood Jesus not from the perspective of a practicing Jew, nor from having met or studied with Jesus, but from a mystical experience in which Paul claimed to have have been literally blinded (temporarily) by the the disembodied resurrected Jesus. Modern Christianity, in other words, is based not on the teachings of the Nazarene, but on the teachings of Paul, who adapted some of the core ideas and teachings for his mostly non-Jewish audience. So with Christianity, you get Jesus-lite: direct connection with God through personal revelation, no need to bother with all those tiresome restrictions demanded in the Torah (particularly circumcision - ouch!), and a few bits and bobs tacked on from the then trendy Hellenistic religions.

All you've got is "Paulinity," not anything based on the teachings of Jesus.

Blogger Ian Ironwood July 16, 2013 1:36 PM  

I find it fascinating how quickly you dismiss the idea of a resurgent and theologically valid neo-paganism. The fact is that paganism has been on the rise as a serious religious movement for decades, since the end of WWII and the failure of Christianity to deal with the three great scourges of the 20th century: industrialized warfare, the Holocaust, and the Atom Bomb. When Christianity abandoned its moral stance on such things (particularly when they were developed and perpetrated by Christians) it was inevitable that those searching for other authentic Western spiritual traditions would naturally look to the glories of our Paleo-pagan past.

As a proud and active polytheist in the US, I welcome and encourage the Hellenes in their brave struggle for recognition. The idea that radical monotheism is the only legitimate theology has been a fatal flaw in western culture for centuries. It's about time that it's on its way out.

Anonymous cara jualan di facebook August 03, 2013 1:54 AM  

interesting topics. I do not know which one to take sides or pass judgment from which point of view.

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