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Wednesday, June 05, 2013

Seriously Fascist Women's Association

One of the cross-dressing lights of the New Equalitarians created a helpful list of the most censorious liberal fascists in the SFWA.  With one or two exceptions, it's a useful list of nobodies and mediocrities whose books you now know you can safely continue to ignore.

It's a bit amusing to read through it and realize there are precisely two authors on it whose work can reasonably be compared to that of the two men who are being so widely castigated... and I'm not a fan of either Resnick or Malzberg.  I merely support their right to write opinion pieces and freely express their opinions in them, regardless of how offensive these delicate, fainting flowers may find those opinions to be.  Of course, in the present SFWA, such support for free speech renders me a radical extremist, nearly as dangerous as the deeply offensive cover of Issue 200.
Bonus points for whomever can figure out how many of these self-appointed censors have published novels with more "offensive" covers than the Red Sonja illustration on the Bulletin cover that has inspired such an epic collective hissy fit.

It's been interesting to see that Laura Resnick, who is usually very quick to leap in and loudly condemn anyone suspected of insufficient enthusiasm for equalitarianism, has been silent concerning the public witchburning of her father. It's also intriguing to see how these liberal fascists claim labeling two old men "sexist bigots" and openly calling for an end to their column is acceptable, but identifying them as "censorious" is, and here I quote the SFWA moderator, "abusive behavior".

Labels:

176 Comments:

Blogger Crude June 05, 2013 4:43 AM  

Was the offensive op-ed posted anywhere? Or is this SFWA-member only?

Anonymous Leap of a Beta June 05, 2013 4:55 AM  

Hilarious how the kinds of behavior the old sci-fi genres were decried as 'paranoid conservative whites' for worrying about, or as horrible people for not wanting to have happen, are now what the sci-fi writers are dealing with.

Reading about the whole thing reminds me of this old sci-fi episode of x minus 1 by William Tenn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6R0iojOfLhE

Worth 20 minutes of your time if you want to relax to a good radio story during your day. Can be listened to anywhere as long as some feminist busy body isn't listening to what you're doing at work.

Anonymous Peter Garstig June 05, 2013 5:04 AM  

We don't censor, we don't censor, we don't censor, we don't censor.

Respect or shut up.


It's time to acknowledge censoring and discrimination healthy human behaviors. Reality is that every single human being is doing exactly that every single day.

No disrespect meant by talking about reality, blowlow.

Blogger Rantor June 05, 2013 5:07 AM  

Interesting list, haven't heard of any of them. Obviously they all think they are great authors... Hmm, no, really, I've never read anything by these anklebiters.

Blogger Rantor June 05, 2013 5:10 AM  

They all agree that censorship is evil. They have developed narrow, ex post facto literary standards. That is something completely different.

Anonymous Cail Corishev June 05, 2013 5:16 AM  

I've always known what a circle jerk is, but I never expected actually to see one.

Anonymous A June 05, 2013 5:18 AM  

"I am telling you now: what you wrote was not okay."

"It’s not okay. And the reactions–these men saying that they are being bullied or censored because they are being called out as sexist bigots–is not okay."

"Not OK Resnick & Malzberg."

Anyone else really hate the term "this is not okay"? Swedish feminists/leftists use it a lot as well. (The middle quote is especially bizarre: it's not okay to say that you're being bullied?)

Anonymous Roundtine June 05, 2013 5:29 AM  

It's the cuddle puddle.

Anonymous Roundtine June 05, 2013 5:30 AM  

Anyone else really hate the term "this is not okay"?

It is fucking awesome, mkay?

Anonymous Hermit June 05, 2013 5:37 AM  

The one author on there I've read, and there last book turned me off from them entirely. No big loss.

Anonymous WaterBoy June 05, 2013 5:46 AM  

Vox: "Bonus points for whomever can figure out how many of these self-appointed censors have published novels with more "offensive" covers than the Red Sonja illustration on the Bulletin cover that has inspired such an epic collective hissy fit."

Cue the "Publisher's Choice" Defense.

Anonymous Peter Garstig June 05, 2013 5:47 AM  

Did the article leak in any way?

I'm really curious on how easy it seems to be to make those rabbits jump in unison.

Anonymous WaterBoy June 05, 2013 5:51 AM  

*sniff*sniff*

Did somebody set out some bacon?

Anonymous VryeDenker June 05, 2013 6:14 AM  

Anyone else really hate the term "this is not okay"?

Yes. It's what mommy says to little Timmy when he touches his little peepee in public. It has no place in a discussion between adults. If something offends you, then say "it offends me and this is why:...". You can't condescend to your seniors (who are also your betters in a tangible way). It is not only inappropriate (see what I did there?), it is also in bad taste.

Anonymous Orion June 05, 2013 6:15 AM  

So the picture should be of some land whale holding a sword after vanquishing a giant/large man? I'm sure that would sell a couple of copies. One for the author and one for her cat/s.

Anonymous Orion June 05, 2013 6:18 AM  

Note the newbies feeling uncomfortable quote. They never had this issue writing for the Romance Writers of America.

Anonymous VryeDenker June 05, 2013 6:38 AM  

A sword is such a patriarcho-phallic symbol. She should brandish a rusty man-catcher.

Blogger 2Bfree June 05, 2013 6:39 AM  

Been reading scifi for over 40 years, I've successfully avoided all of those authors. Cutting my teeth on Burroughs, Howard, Clarke, Asimov, and Heinlein, I can say nobody on that list is in their league.

The cover looks like a repeat from a old version of Dragon magazine featuring Red Sonja. Maybe if those "critics" read my old collection of Savage Sword of Conan graphic novels from the 70's and 80's (it's in a box around here somewhere) they understand how Resnick and Malzberg comments are comparatively lesbian.

Anonymous Joe Bob June 05, 2013 6:42 AM  

Thomas Pluck is a professional writer? "Giant Space-Dicks" is unintentional comedy gold.

Anonymous Davey Hogan's Revenge June 05, 2013 6:50 AM  

Mike Resnick is Laura Resnick's daddy? Oh ho that is mother...fucking comedy gold. I bet Laura feels like she soiled herself in public. Again, solid comedy fucking gold.

Anonymous Huh June 05, 2013 6:52 AM  

Bonus points for whomever can figure out how many of these self-appointed censors have published novels with more "offensive" covers than the Red Sonja illustration on the Bulletin cover that has inspired such an epic collective hissy fit.

These are all published authors? Really? I don't recognize a single one of 'em -- not even in the "never read them, but have seen them on the shelves" sense.

Anonymous Huh June 05, 2013 6:53 AM  

No wait, I have seen Lilith Saintcrow's books, I remember that stupid-ass name.

Anonymous VD June 05, 2013 6:59 AM  

Katherine Kerr is pretty good. Peter Brett isn't bad. The rest are irrelevant.

Anonymous Davey Hogan's Revenge June 05, 2013 7:01 AM  

Here's a link to some of the article in question. Cupcake, felt so offened he just had to post some of it.

http://radishreviews.com/2013/05/31/linkspam-53113-edition/

Mike Resnick is Laura Resnick's daddy = solid country gold.

Anonymous vales3 June 05, 2013 7:23 AM  

Except for Peter Brett, Katherine Kerr, and Patrick Nielsen Hayden, and a couple authors that sound/look familiar: who are these people? I've been reading science fiction and fantasy for 35+ years and I have no clue. Now I'm not the biggest fan of Mike Resnick but have read a couple of his novels and I have read much of Barry Malzberg's later short fiction which I remember enjoying. Amazing to me that this is even a controversy.

This is the cover though? Seriously? Would they prefer Red Sonja in a burqa wielding a clever and holding the severed head of an old white male?

Thanks for keeping us up to date Vox.

Anonymous jay c June 05, 2013 7:28 AM  

Looks like a good list of SF writer/bloggers to avoid. Never heard of any of them.

Anonymous Orville June 05, 2013 7:48 AM  

Every turd like Scalzi has it's literary dingleberries. I hadn't heard of them either except for Tobler, and her only because of the post a few days ago.

Anonymous Davey Hogan's Revenge June 05, 2013 7:49 AM  

Anyone have bets that Laura will go all Benedict Arnold on her pa? Or will the Borg collective give her the shun?

Blogger Nate June 05, 2013 7:52 AM  

Very few things in life will be as amusing as seeing John Scalzi called a sexist.

No doubt in response he will be writing how he really is a sexist and he works so hard not to be a sexist but he just can't stop because he's a just a dumb male.

Blogger Nate June 05, 2013 7:59 AM  

And... also what we have here is a perfect proof of the concept that liberals never stop.

No matter how far to the left a group or organization goes... liberals will always find a reason to be outraged by it and no matter how tiny the slight, they will always blow it up in an emotional outburst that is proportionate to the worst abuses in recorded history.

Liberalism eats itself.

Anonymous Davey Hogan's Revenge June 05, 2013 8:04 AM  

Dumb white male. Don't forget, it's the easiest setting in life.

Anonymous Darth Toolpodicus June 05, 2013 8:08 AM  

All these people I have never even heard of actually MET the criteria for SFWA membership?!? Really?

How's this for stupendous-tone-deaf Irony, from Kameron Turley: “Nobody has to agree with you anymore. Nobody is afraid of you anymore. I know this may come as a massive shock to folks used to a position of power, insulated by groups of people who are happy to stroke their egos and soothe their souls.”

Couldn't Agree more. Now go make me a Turkey Pot Pie, Bitch!

Anonymous TJIC June 05, 2013 8:15 AM  

@A:

> Anyone else really hate the term "this is not okay"?

The left, evil and wrong as it's always been, used to at least be intelligent. They'd tell plausible sounding stories and make arguments.

These days they've basically won the culture war and are just engaged in mop up operations. This means two things:

1) most card carrying members of the left aren't battle tested and hardened. They don't even KNOW how to fight.

2) most people they attack are demoralized and on the run.

The result is that leftists don't even try to argue any more; they just assert "we're right, and you're being BAD".

You are absolutely correct to notice the terrible, nannying "this is not OK" phrase.

I had a twitter dust-up the other day with some feminists. I was soundly beating on one points, so she decided to assert that I had never had a girlfriend. I said that I'd had many and was currently engaged. She, as a feminist, stayed classy.

...I'm joking, of course. She immediately said that my fiance was a blow-up sex doll.

At this point I decided to use a bit of jiu jitsu and accuse her of attacking a woman and sex shaming my fiance.

She had a total melt down, but here's the point of the story: instead of making any sort of point, she just asked repeatedly "did you just say that?!?!?"

The phrase "Did you say that?" or "Did you really say that?" is very similar to "is not ok": it's not an argument, it's a shaming technique. The template is that the leftist says it, and then the uncommitted rightist / social-con / libertarian says "oops, no, I didn't REALLY mean to break your tabboos. I'm sorry."

The hilarious thing about this technique is that the emperor has no clothes. You just calmly say "Yes, I meant to say it. What part do you assert is factually incorrect?"

This works with the "X is not OK" argument as well:

feminist: "X is not OK".

you: "Yes it is. Not only can I prove it, but you really should check your privilege. Please don't try to legislate your particular morality on me."

Guaranteed result: epic emotional melt-down and name-calling.

Anonymous Vogon June 05, 2013 8:16 AM  

Foz Meadows' rant must be the funniest. She starts off furious and goes further into meltdown from there. Then at the end:

This post was originally titled Old Men Yelling At Clouds: SFWA Lunacy. I then changed that last word to idiocy, as it was pointed out to me that the use of lunacy was ableist; but as idiocy is also abelist, I’ve changed it to sexism.

Anonymous TJIC June 05, 2013 8:17 AM  

@Darth:

> How's this for stupendous-tone-deaf Irony, from Kameron Turley: “Nobody has to agree with you anymore. Nobody is afraid of you anymore.

Yes, I loved that. Woman leading a 400 person mob tells two loan guys: "We may be small, but we're not afraid of your massive army".

Snort.

I love how leftists always re-write reality to make themselves into the brave oppressed peasant standing in front of a tank column.

Anonymous Darth Toolpodicus June 05, 2013 8:18 AM  

Correction: I've been reading SFF for 30+ years, own over 1000 books in dead-tree format, and the only name on that list I recognize is Lilith Saintcrow. The only reason I remember her is b/c the first time I came across her name I couldn't stop snickering like Beavis...

Anonymous Stinky McGee June 05, 2013 8:21 AM  

Oh the humanity! Someone's got to do something! The government needs to step in and take over! Form a committee, have an inquiry, pass a law,set up a new department to deal with this crisis.


Reminds me of talking to my friend's teen age daughter about all the oh so horrible events that happen in high school.

Anonymous Davey Hogan's Revenge June 05, 2013 8:25 AM  

I would love to hear Colonel Tom Kratman opine about this SFWA dustup/meltdown.

Anonymous Stilicho June 05, 2013 8:25 AM  

I've heard of Brett and Kerr (they are both mediocre--read one book by each and avoided them thereafter). The rest, not at all.

Anonymous Keep Smiling June 05, 2013 8:32 AM  

How can you not be a fan of M. Resnick. His stuff is plain ol fun to read. The hero has a lantern jaw, there are sidekicks, the bad guy always loses, and the girls always banter with, but eventually fall for the hero (well maybe not Val, but hey).

OpenID kaiheitai June 05, 2013 8:35 AM  

We should set up a male-only SF writing group.

Blogger Nate June 05, 2013 8:36 AM  

There's something to be said about a man who can stare down a raving feminist and force it to spontaneously combust, with naught but a withering glare.

Anonymous VryeDenker June 05, 2013 8:36 AM  

This all reeks of childless women being driven by biology to seek a baby-surrogate to nurture. If it can't be a real baby, it has to be a cause.

Blogger Nate June 05, 2013 8:39 AM  

another awesome aspect about this... These people who've accomplished literally nothing are bitching about how they want to be judged by the quality of their work.

Do you?

Do you REALLY want to be judged by the quality of your work?

Anonymous Tallen June 05, 2013 9:00 AM  

Whoever screams "I'm offended" loudest wins.

Anonymous jack June 05, 2013 9:05 AM  

Ann Kopchik: “I really have no words about the whole #sfwa thing. Except that I’m tired of needing a dick to be respected.”

I think I will save this one somewhere. Its got to have some use down the road....

Now, finally, the morning OJ chased with the morning tea. Yum

Blogger James Dixon June 05, 2013 9:12 AM  

Damn. I would have thought better of Katherine Kerr.

> Katherine Kerr is pretty good. Peter Brett isn't bad. The rest are irrelevant.

I'll have to check out Peter Brett some day then. Kerr's the only one on the list I've read. Yes, she's pretty good.

Anonymous Daniel June 05, 2013 9:31 AM  

We should set up a male-only SF writing group.

No. Males do not need a group in order to write and sell fiction successfully. Writing is a solitary thing, in need of zero bureaucratic support. Wild wills do not benefit from a corral.

SFWA is a girl gang because gals prefer the illusion of sisterhood to the threat of merited success.

Blogger Nate June 05, 2013 9:34 AM  

"Wild wills do not benefit from a corral."

A group is not a corral.

Anonymous Ann A. June 05, 2013 9:38 AM  

I’ve been fighting this battle for five years now.

And now, here’s the second thing: I’ve been made aware of a post (that I’m not linking to) from a guy who is swinging at me again. Why? Because I’m getting my girl cooties all over his SF. He implies I’m incapable of grasping sophisticated SF references due to my gender–that I don’t actually write SF because it has women, sex, and feelings in it. I’m so tired and disheartened right now. The one bright spot was my experience at KeyCon in Canada, where I was not only made to feel welcome but valued. Not a single soul at the con questioned my credentials or my quality of fiction, due to what I don’t have in my pants.

But I’m still here. I’m still writing. You cannot shut me up. I will NOT SIT DOWN. I will not stand quietly by anymore. I am a woman. I write SF. And it’s not acceptable to treat me as anything less than an equal. I won’t stand for it. And I won’t get your fucking coffee. –Ann Aguirre

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian, King of Aquilonia June 05, 2013 9:47 AM  

Ann,

If you are a decent writer, than keep on truckin'.

Do not care about your detractors.

Your quality will win for itself.

Do not care how others treat you. That is a trap.

Write good works and carry on.

Whining is unbecoming.

Nobody really cares about your vagina. So don't make it an issue, write good SF and nobody cares.

Lose the me and my vagina perspective to how you view the world around you.

Anonymous JACIII June 05, 2013 9:47 AM  

Brett is slipping. The warrior women are taking over the Warded Man series.

Anonymous Josh June 05, 2013 9:48 AM  

Imagine if Vox had won. The outrage would have been a thousand times more awesome.

Anonymous FUBAR Nation Ben June 05, 2013 9:48 AM  

I have an idea: Start a new SFWA that's just for men.

Anonymous Josh June 05, 2013 9:49 AM  

But I’m still here. I’m still writing. You cannot shut me up. I will NOT SIT DOWN. I will not stand quietly by anymore. I am a woman. I write SF. And it’s not acceptable to treat me as anything less than an equal. I won’t stand for it. And I won’t get your fucking coffee. –Ann Aguirre

Will you make me a sammich?

Anonymous Daniel June 05, 2013 9:50 AM  

A group is not a corral.

Don't get me wrong. I think a professional men's organization is perfectly appropriate when necessary, as the SFWA was when it was founded (to negotiate pay rates as a block.)

So, as long as the professional men's writing group forms on an ad hoc basis when necessary, that makes sense. My point is this: what is the objective of a group? I mean, it might be fun to form a club of men just to better make fun of the SFWA, but that doesn't need to be limited to writers. But if professional writing men actually need a group to perform a greater function...why haven't they formed one yet?

My point is that one isn't necessary at this time, or doesn't appear to be. Keep in mind that SFWA's "marketing clout" is irrelevant to the way bookselling is done today, which is why the media is able to pat them on the head and pretend that they are relevant. It makes everybody on that side of the of the oven feel special.

So that's my question: form a men's professional writing group...with what objective, exactly?

OpenID kaiheitai June 05, 2013 9:50 AM  

No, Daniel, I believe that men can benefit from a male-only SF group. It would be a group that doesn't have to be derailed by gender issues and Feminism (which is just Marxism in a bikini).

Anonymous Davey Hogan's Revenge June 05, 2013 9:51 AM  

@Ann A.

Fucking beautiful.

No one's trying to shut you up. Grow a dick or don't.

*Yawn

More coffee please?

Anonymous Josh June 05, 2013 9:52 AM  

Feminism (which is just Marxism in a bikini).

That's awesome.

Anonymous Daniel June 05, 2013 9:57 AM  

Congratulations on your successful career and books, but geez, Ann, quit screeching and maybe you'll realize your battle has been done for years. Maybe it isn't that you are woman, but a complainer that sets your enemies against you. For goodness sakes, one of my best-selling stories is 1-star rated on Amazon, so its not like I don't know what it is like to have detractors, but I think this is the first time I have ever mentioned it or even thought about it. I honestly don't care about detractors: I'd never want to measure my success by the people who don't like me.

Don't let the bastards get you down, is what I'm saying. Don't make it a battle. If you are selling, my friend, what have you got to complain about? Critics are just noise: when you need them for motivation, great, use them like a slave, but then let them go, and keep on trucking.

Anonymous Daniel June 05, 2013 10:01 AM  

No, Daniel, I believe that men can benefit from a male-only SF group. It would be a group that doesn't have to be derailed by gender issues and Feminism (which is just Marxism in a bikini).

How? What is the strategic professional objective? I've been writing for decades, and the more success I have found, the less use I have found for professional writer's groups. This is not true in my other pursuits, which are more collaborative in nature.

I'm not saying there isn't a purpose. I'm just asking what that purpose is. I have no professional reason to pursue an alternative anti-feminism group.

Blogger James Dixon June 05, 2013 10:07 AM  

> But I’m still here. I’m still writing.

Good for you. I'm sure some people appreciate what you produce.

> You cannot shut me up.

No, but I don't have to listen.

> I will NOT SIT DOWN. I will not stand quietly by anymore. I am a woman.

Obviously.

> I write SF.

That's debatable. But since I haven't read your work, I have no way to say.

> And it’s not acceptable to treat me as anything less than an equal.

Honey, I can treat you as anything we damn well please. You have no more claim on my actions than I do on yours.

> I won’t stand for it.

Then sit for it. I don't care. Nor do I care how many hissy fits you throw.

> And I won’t get your fucking coffee. –Ann Aguirre

I haven't asked you to. Besides, I drink tea.

Anonymous Bobby Troslair June 05, 2013 10:07 AM  

"We should set up a male-only SF writing group."

You will have to have a member to be a member.

Blogger Nate June 05, 2013 10:09 AM  

"But I’m still here. I’m still writing. You cannot shut me up. I will NOT SIT DOWN. I will not stand quietly by anymore. I am a woman. I write SF. And it’s not acceptable to treat me as anything less than an equal. I won’t stand for it. And I won’t get your fucking coffee. –Ann Aguirre"

Tell us about the physics in your Science Fiction Ann.

Oh wait... You write... "Romantic Science Fiction" right Ann? You write bullshit Harlequin novels set on spaceships.

Brilliant.

Also... put down the bon bons honey. ffs.

Blogger Nate June 05, 2013 10:13 AM  

See Ann... we're not judging you by whats in your pants... or by the fact that you're a land whale.

We're judging you based on your work. Which sucks.

Welcome to equality.

I think you'll find its not as fun as you were told it would be.

Blogger James Dixon June 05, 2013 10:16 AM  

Ack. As anything we should be as anything I, of course. I started the section with we, and decided I shouldn't speak for the others here. But I missed that one.

Anonymous DrTorch June 05, 2013 10:17 AM  

Off topic but apparently warrior princess theory is confirmed as true

http://news.yahoo.com/transgender-navy-seal-warrior-princess-comes-005114970--abc-news-topstories.html

Blogger vandelay June 05, 2013 10:21 AM  

So, is Lady Speed Stick sexist too? Do all of these outraged females boycott antiperspirant in protest?
Don't answer that. I think I already know the answer.

Anonymous VD June 05, 2013 10:21 AM  

Because I’m getting my girl cooties all over his SF. He implies I’m incapable of grasping sophisticated SF references due to my gender–that I don’t actually write SF because it has women, sex, and feelings in it.

That's the thing, Ann. Based on your book reviews, it appears that you don't write science fiction. Rather, you write romance with SF trappings. The fact that you don't understand the difference does not speak well for you. The problem isn't that you are a woman. I happen to like female writers who write good SF and fantasy. The problem is that you aren't one of them. You're selling your work under false pretenses.

I’m still here. I’m still writing. You cannot shut me up. I will NOT SIT DOWN. I will not stand quietly by anymore. I am a woman. I write SF. And it’s not acceptable to treat me as anything less than an equal. I won’t stand for it. And I won’t get your fucking coffee.

No one is trying to shut you up. That's kind of the point. We simply don't give a damn what you have to say or possess any interest in reading what you write. You are a woman. Great. But woman or not, you not only don't write SF, you don't even understand what SF is. It is not only acceptable for me to treat you as less than an equal, it is necessary, because you are not my equal. You are a fraud.

No one is expecting anything of you except to leave us alone and mind your own bloody business. But you can't do that. Why can't you do that, Ann? Why can't you simply do your own thing and leave Mike Resnick to do his, Rachel Swirsky to do hers, and get on with life?

Blogger Nate June 05, 2013 10:21 AM  

Somewhere... Underwater Operative is shaking his head.

Anonymous Josh June 05, 2013 10:24 AM  

Why can't you simply do your own thing and leave Mike Resnick to do his, Rachel Swirsky to do hers, and get on with life?

Because she is outraged. Outraged, I say!

Anonymous Josh June 05, 2013 10:27 AM  

Ann's work seems to be very ableist by making Freaks the bad guys. Why does she hate freaks?

Anonymous Josh June 05, 2013 10:35 AM  

Vox, it's mean and sexist of you to censor all of Ann's subsequent comments. It's not like she would just make a drive by comment and leave without defending it. So you must be censoring her.

Anonymous Josh June 05, 2013 10:46 AM  

Do the tender female hearts of the SFWA know that Ann is pro rape?

From a review of one of her books:

But the victim blaming and the sexualization of a rapist just did it for me. I couldn't, in my right mind, give it any more that one star. Stalker, the man who engaged in and encouraged the brutal gang-rape of Tegan, is actually pitted as a love interest for Deuce.Are you kidding me? KIDDING ME?No. I just can't sing praises for any book that would justify and sexualize rape. I just can't.

Anonymous Peter Garstig June 05, 2013 10:52 AM  

There's something to be said about a man who can stare down a raving feminist and force it to spontaneously combust, with naught but a withering glare.

I actually witnessed this once on TV when I was about 20. Alice Schwarzer (German Feminist Icon) was in a talking show together with one bad-ass alpha actor Klaus Löwitsch. They disagree on something unimportant. The feminist started to argue. The bad-ass just leaned back, locked at her intensely with more and more amusement, very relaxed and with a little smile. This got the feminist started and she began using the whole program of insults. The tirade lasted 10 minutes and got more ridiculous by the minute.

No one asked who was the loon afterwards.

Anonymous Daniel June 05, 2013 10:53 AM  

What an ignorant review. Rape, like science, is self-sexualizing.

Anonymous Sheila June 05, 2013 10:56 AM  

Why is it always some pseudo-conservative Jews against openly Marxist Jews? Even SF - or cooking shows - or home buyers - it's always Jew versus Jew with an occasional DWL (or some other cultural enricher) thrown in. I'm so tired of living in post-America America. Even escapism in reading is denied me (try reading some light romance crap without finding the loving gay couple or hardline polemics sprinkled throughout).

Ann - I have never read any of your work. I have never heard of you before. Having read your highly indignant spleen-venting - I yawned. Listen, snowflake - no one gives a good spit about you - and someday, you'll be shown precisely where you figure in the universe.

Anonymous Josh June 05, 2013 11:00 AM  

Why is it always some pseudo-conservative Jews against openly Marxist Jews? Even SF - or cooking shows - or home buyers - it's always Jew versus Jew with an occasional DWL (or some other cultural enricher) thrown in.

I think you mean Joos. Also, are you single? If not, let me introduce you to a certain Mr Wheeler. I have a feeling y'all would get along gentilely.

Anonymous Davey Hogan's Revenge June 05, 2013 11:07 AM  

@Nate
Couldn't agree with you more on equality.

Shit drivel written by woman, man, or yellow space alien is still shit drivel. Equality sucks, doesn't it Ann?

I hear the maple syrup flows like wine up in Canada, eh? Move on up, sister. You go girl.

Take some writing lessons from Sarah Hoyt before you go.

Anonymous A Loving Tribute to Falco June 05, 2013 11:25 AM  

I merely support their right to write opinion pieces and freely express their opinions in them, regardless of how offensive these delicate, fainting flowers may find those opinions to be.
 
Why do you think they have a right to have their opinions published?
 

Anonymous Stickwick June 05, 2013 11:29 AM  

No one is trying to shut you up. That's kind of the point. We simply don't give a damn what you have to say ...

Vox, what you don't seem to understand is that for most women, not giving a damn what they have to say == trying to shut them up. The only point for a woman to say anything is "to be heard," ergo if she's not heard, she effectively has not said anything, ergo someone is trying to shut her up.

And I won’t get your fucking coffee.

Why do women keep harping on this? In the last 20 years, has any man dared to ask any woman, besides a waitress -- excuse me, server (which is also implicitly sexist, as it implies women are meant to serve) -- to get him anything?

Anonymous VD June 05, 2013 11:30 AM  

Why do you think they have a right to have their opinions published?

Because they have a publishing contract, and in the case of Mike Resnick, he is a longtime member of the organization.

Anonymous VD June 05, 2013 11:31 AM  

Vox, what you don't seem to understand is that for most women, not giving a damn what they have to say == trying to shut them up.

Why, I didn't know my own power. I have successfully shut up MILLIONS of women.

OpenID kaiheitai June 05, 2013 11:32 AM  

A male-only SF writing group would have the same objectives as an open SF group, only, there would be no useless witchhunts or political correctness.

Anonymous FP June 05, 2013 11:38 AM  

"Feminism (which is just Marxism in a bikini)."

I'm stealing that line.

"Silvia Moreno-Garcia: Oh, Bulletin. “In their latest Bulletin rant, Mike Resnick and Barry Malzberg insist, among other things, that they appeared on an issue with a Warrior Woman on the cover. They lie … They appeared in an issue with Sexy Cheesecake Lady. If they can’t tell the difference, maybe that explains a LOT.”"

Now there is a business idea. Sexy cheesecake ladies delivery company. 30 minutes or its free! They show up in sexy outfit of your choice. I think the best place to find cheesecake ladies these days would be plentyoffish.com.


Anonymous Josh June 05, 2013 11:38 AM  

In the last 20 years, has any man dared to ask any woman, besides a waitress -- excuse me, server (which is also implicitly sexist, as it implies women are meant to serve) -- to get him anything?

I just asked Mrs Aguirre to make me a sammich. Does that count?

Blogger The Deuce June 05, 2013 11:44 AM  

Ann A:

But I’m still here. I’m still writing. You cannot shut me up.

Nobody is trying to shut you up, you dumb broad. You're the one trying to shut people up, based purely on the degree they make you personally "feel valued." Did you never graduate kindergarten or something? The world doesn't revolve around your feelings. Grow up.

Anonymous Stilicho June 05, 2013 11:45 AM  

A blurb for one of Ann's books "Forbidden Fruit"...

I see dead people. Okay, that’s a lie. I hear dead people—on an antique radio…

So far, that talent hasn’t brought Shannon Cheney fame or fortune. Since the world remains unaware that magick is real, being Gifted largely sucks. Her boss is an asshole, she makes minimum wage, and she’s got a serious case of forbidden lust for a sexy cop named Jesse Saldana. He’s part Mexican heat, all Texas charm, and enough of a dirty cowboy to curl her toes. Too bad he’s set on resisting her wiles.

To make matters worse, there’s this weird amnesia thing happening. She might think she’s going crazy, except Jesse’s got it too, and memory loss isn’t contagious like the flu. When Shannon pokes around, trying to put the missing pieces together, demonic retaliation is swift and potentially deadly. Jesse’s too much of a white knight to let her face danger alone, and she’s hoping he can’t resist the white-hot chemistry blazing between them…


Someone's been double-clicking her mouse while she writes...

Blogger Nate June 05, 2013 11:50 AM  

"To make matters worse, there’s this weird amnesia thing happening. She might think she’s going crazy, except Jesse’s got it too, and memory loss isn’t contagious like the flu. When Shannon pokes around, trying to put the missing pieces together, demonic retaliation is swift and potentially deadly. Jesse’s too much of a white knight to let her face danger alone, and she’s hoping he can’t resist the white-hot chemistry blazing between them…"

Dear God...

I take it back Ann. You don't write Harlequin novels. Suggesting you do is an insult to the wal-mart paperback section.

Anonymous A Loving Tribute to Falco June 05, 2013 11:54 AM  

Because they have a publishing contract…
 
Ok, let’s try this again.  Why do you think SFWA members don’t have a right to whine about any given topic and control who publishes what in their bulletin (within the confines of whatever current contractual obligations exist)? 

Anonymous Davey Hogan's Revenge June 05, 2013 11:54 AM  

I can't resist that white-hot chemistry either. Hot damn!

Anonymous Josh June 05, 2013 11:57 AM  

Wait...how is that book scifi?

Anonymous Stickwick June 05, 2013 12:01 PM  

Why, I didn't know my own power. I have successfully shut up MILLIONS of women.

That's why you're so eeeeevil. And the more desirable a man's "damn" is perceived to be, the more shut down a woman feels when you don't give it.

Incidentally, this is why women think the pre-emptive refusing to have sex with you is so powerful. It's their equivalent of showing you they don't give a damn, and therefore shutting you down. Of course, what's so funny about this tactic is that it is least likely to work with the men against whom they most want it to work.

Anonymous VD June 05, 2013 12:01 PM  

Why do you think SFWA members don’t have a right to whine about any given topic and control who publishes what in their bulletin (within the confines of whatever current contractual obligations exist)?

I do think they have the right to whine about whatever they like. I have no problem with their whining, I simply disagree with the content of their whining and believe they are hypocritical for calling Messrs. Resnick and Malzberg "sexist bigots" and "dinosaurs" and so forth for daring to refer to a woman as a "lady" and mentioning that she was attractive.

And I also disagree that all people have to be taken seriously, least of all a collection of whining fascists.

Blogger Jack Hanson June 05, 2013 12:08 PM  

Calling someone else's article a rant while ranting amidst a sea of rants.

Talk about your overblown issues. Holy shit is there nothing the Left won't turn into victim fodder?

Anonymous VD June 05, 2013 12:10 PM  

Holy shit is there nothing the Left won't turn into victim fodder?

That's why I think it is funny that Scalzi and Swirsky are running around trying to "solve" the problem. All they are doing is guaranteeing that there will be another incident or three, because now the perpetually offended know the tactic works.

Blogger Jack Hanson June 05, 2013 12:13 PM  

AHAAH just saw Lilith Saintcrow's name. Talk about your frumpy redheads who have to exist either in a constant "safe space" or live vicariously through heroine "Dante Valentine" and have affairs with the Devil in badly written "urban fantasy" pap.

I swear I have never read the books but the back cover narratives were so breathlessly overblown along with the retarded, high falutin pen name that they caught my eye. Everytime anyone disagrees with Vox about how traditional publishing helps separates the wheat from the chaff they should be forced to read a terrible Saintcrow novel. Then maybe they'll realise the real metric is how many fanfiction forums you post on.

Anonymous Stilicho June 05, 2013 12:16 PM  

Wait...how is that book scifi?

Wanna bet she has fantasies about making Jesse a sammich? A dirty, dirty cowboy sammich.

Blogger DmL June 05, 2013 12:17 PM  

offensive from a cover design standpoint, maybe

Anonymous Josh June 05, 2013 12:20 PM  

Holy shit is there nothing the Left won't turn into victim fodder?

Apparently the big thing now is "micro aggressions"

Blogger Bogey June 05, 2013 12:22 PM  

Any of those Lady Authors on your list hot looking?

In the meantime.

Anonymous Daniel June 05, 2013 12:33 PM  

A male-only SF writing group would have the same objectives as an open SF group, only, there would be no useless witchhunts or political correctness.

Those are the objectives of the open SF group under discussion. The President-Elect himself has written that the SFWA serves no real purpose other than the Emergency Fund (a charity for struggling writers).

If you are just saying that a group of male writers can get together to enter into talks with Amazon and other corporate sponsors to select an award for hard SF or Epic Fantasy or something, well then yes, that seems like an interesting objective, I suppose. But it seems like you just want a SFWA without the women, which is a little like NOW having a policy against infanticide. Sort of undercuts the entire reason for existence.

I just don't see the professional (i.e. business-building) advantage. Please note that the majority of the membership of the SFWA are not making a career of their writing. If it isn't going to give me the tangible opportunity to sell more books, and I'm a pro author, would it just be like a social club? I mean, it can be nice to network with other authors sometimes, but the profession doesn't depend on it like larger scale projects might. Maybe if there was a tangible multimedia, multiplatform service...but then that would likely be either an open source deal or just a professionally developed tool with subscription. No need to limit to men only.

I was one of those kids who idolized the SFWA back in the 80s, when I thought it was a ticket to professional legitimacy (whatever that was - wine, women, stardom, Ender-level cashflow, Asimovian prestige, Bradbury's sex appeal, Dick's drugs, Anthony's pun library, I dunno.), but now, it just seems like a solution in desperate search of a problem to me.

But I don't know what I'm talking about. Have at it, I say, for whatever reason.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 05, 2013 12:34 PM  

I could only get part-way throught the list, but the Kameron Hurley quote caught my eye too.

“Nobody has to agree with you anymore. Nobody is afraid of you anymore. I know this may come as a massive shock to folks used to a position of power, insulated by groups of people who are happy to stroke their egos and soothe their souls.”

She talking to Resnik and Malzberg, or Scalzi and the rest of the SWFA "leadership?" I mean, who 'zactly has a position of power here, and who is insulated by folks stroking their egos?

Funny too, when I went to her blog, I realized I'd followed another link there recently. It was from the link Vox posted a while back to the story on the demise of Night Shade Books. Hurley is one of the authors Night Shade published, and her reaction to the thing was comically stupid in the way the only fat, crude, spoiled women can be. She is a piece of work.


And I won’t get your fucking coffee. –Ann Aguirre

Jeez-Louise. I'll pass on your coffee and your writing. Both are too bitter. Of course you think I'm being sexist, but it's exactly the opposite. I'm judging you on what you've written, not on your plumbing.

Anonymous Sigyn June 05, 2013 12:35 PM  

In the last 20 years, has any man dared to ask any woman...to get him anything?

Yes, and it was both irritating and sexy as hell.

You know what came of it.

Also, we made it fashionable on Saturday.

Anonymous kh123 June 05, 2013 12:36 PM  

"I’m still here. I’m still writing. You cannot shut me up. I will NOT SIT DOWN. I will not stand quietly by anymore. I am a woman. I write SF. And it’s not acceptable to treat me as anything less than an equal. I won’t stand for it. And I won’t get your fucking coffee."

Where's the roar.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 05, 2013 12:37 PM  

That's why I think it is funny that Scalzi and Swirsky are running around trying to "solve" the problem. All they are doing is guaranteeing that there will be another incident or three, because now the perpetually offended know the tactic works.

Gammas Failing Shit-Tests, vol. CXXVI

Anonymous Jill June 05, 2013 12:48 PM  

Haven't the lines already been blurred within sci-fi/fan circles? And as far as writing romance and calling it sci-fi, aren't these designations given by publishing companies? They have to be categorized--how does one go about doing this? Don't the authors or publishers decide which label is more prominent (this book has 90% more sci fi and 20% less romance than your average)? When I categorized my book, I used the broad category of romance, with a secondary of time travel. But I'm almost sorry I did because I don't think the audience who wants to use time travel in order to seduce Mr. Darcy will appreciate it. I think I may have unintentionally mislabelled it. Perhaps this is just a judgement call that must be made, and isn't meant to be deceptive at all.

Blogger Crude June 05, 2013 12:51 PM  

And I won’t get your fucking coffee.

The rest of the rant was hard to take seriously, but this line? Something about it takes the cake. She may as well have said "I'll wear WHATEVER CLOTHING I WANT, DADDY!"

I mean, if you're going to give insight into your psychological hangups, go full bore with it.

Blogger Laramie Hirsch June 05, 2013 12:56 PM  

What a bunch of boring people. I'm glad I don't pay money for that rag.

Blogger jaericho June 05, 2013 12:57 PM  

Katherine Kerr is pretty good. Peter Brett isn't bad. The rest are irrelevant.

I'll keep Brett in my queue. I haven't head of the others.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 05, 2013 12:57 PM  

Why, I didn't know my own power. I have successfully shut up MILLIONS of women.

If only they weren't so damn noisy while they are being shut up.

Anonymous dh June 05, 2013 1:04 PM  

Peter Brett:

" I won’t get into the details of their remarks here, save to say that having read them for myself, I agree they were unprofessional, inappropriate, and not representative of the SF industry as a whole.”"

That's probably not the worst response. Unprofessional - probably. Unrepresentative? Yeah, probably. Inappropriate? Obviously.

Anonymous dh June 05, 2013 1:05 PM  

And I won’t get your fucking coffee. –Ann Aguirre

Because you drank it, plus ate all the donuts, and everything else on the way.

Anonymous jack June 05, 2013 1:07 PM  

A Loving Tribute to Falco June 05, 2013 11:54 AM

Because they have a publishing contract…

Ok, let’s try this again. Why do you think SFWA members don’t have a right to whine about any given topic and control who publishes what in their bulletin (within the confines of whatever current contractual obligations exist)?

Vox responded to this; also,I would add, the they took their critical whining public. This from a private fairly exclusive forum. And, then refused to offer the citations of the two guys column for others not so blessed as to be SFWA members to read and judge for themselves. This smacks of what should be a banning from the SFWA membership; or, at least sequester for half a year or so.
Had they kept it all in house, bad enough, but at least some small dash of class.

Anonymous Darth Toolpodicus June 05, 2013 1:14 PM  

Actually, I think Lilith Saintcrow is her real name. Damn if it doesn't sounds like a cheesy pen name though. I laughed at it regardless.

Anonymous Sigyn June 05, 2013 1:19 PM  

Tribute, here's another perspective.

1. Two men say something that offends someone. That someone demands that the two men be forbidden from saying it again and/or punished for having said it. This is censorship.

2. Someone demands that someone else be punished for saying something offensive. A third someone tells her she is wrong. This is not censorship.

Pointing and laughing at the offended someone who in the same breath talks about being open to new ideas (e.g., reads and writes science fiction) and insists on squelching ideas she doesn't like is not an infringement on her rights.

Got that?

Anonymous dh June 05, 2013 1:24 PM  

But I’m still here. I’m still writing. You cannot shut me up. I will NOT SIT DOWN. I will not stand quietly by anymore. I am a woman. I write SF. And it’s not acceptable to treat me as anything less than an equal. I won’t stand for it. And I won’t get your fucking coffee. –Ann Aguirre

When this kerfluffle came up, I took the burden of purchasing and reading one of your books. I had read your open letter on your website.

So here is the bottom line: I read Grimspace. It was really terrible. You are not equal to any of the fine or even okay writers in the SF/F world.

Specifically:

Your character development was childish. I could tell without looking at your picture you were enormously fat. Sirantha is flat and is essentially a waste of a character. All of your great lengths to make her seem grounded is wasted.

Your science was non-sensical, and probably flows from your very poor understanding of science as a whole. The navigation system might as well just be described as magic. Supposedly a genetic mutation allows special people to navigate based on alien beacons, yet a minor character is preparing to take over navigation of a ship, without the gene. The timescale of travel is also screwed up. When the story demands it, navigation between exits takes several weeks. When the story demand a quick exit, it shrinks to 36 hours. Again, just call it magic, and save yourself trying to imagine a future science based on special females who navigate by their superior genetics.

The "surprises" are just as stupid. A minor character sacrifices itself for no apparent reason, based on nothing in the characters backstory or development to suggest it was likely or even a possibility. Meaning, it was completely predictable.

The love story is written like a fat woman with a husband who cheats on her. Of course the love interest is a bad boy with a warm side. The bad boy of course is fighting against a big bad corporation who literally brainwashes everyone, but the explanation of why sounds like it was lifted from pro-Che propaganda.

The biggest thrill was when Jax decides to take over fighting the ship. She has no idea how to work anything but quickly overcomes better trained and equipped opponents. Big surprise - powerful woman, here her roar.

Getting anyone coffee would be a big improvement if it takes you away from writing. No one cares if you momentarily lift your lardy ass off your chair and refuse to sit down. Judging by your work, your target market are half-retarded teenage girls with body-image issues and middle-aged housewives with unfulfilled sex lives. The writing style is childish, and your biggest praise and noteworthiness come from USA Today, the most average newspaper in the country.

Anonymous dh June 05, 2013 1:32 PM  

Tell us about the physics in your Science Fiction Ann.

Oh wait... You write... "Romantic Science Fiction" right Ann? You write bullshit Harlequin novels set on spaceships.

Brilliant.

Also... put down the bon bons honey. ffs.


You nailed it. I read one of her books because of this little outpouring. The physics are really bad. Way worse than Joss Whedon's movies or shows. Way worse than most other bad SF/F novels. It's basically a way to make the character special, for no reason. Fate has made her special, and then the bad physics and genetics and biology and space mechanics were back filled to get there. Really, really bad. She fixates on a magic gene which lets the people with the gene see alien beacons left behind to navigate through a special type of space. There is no rational explanation given why you need a navigator who can see these beacons. They apparently can't be mapped and reproduced after the fact, with no explanation. There is no explanation or thought on what the gene affects. It's like the gene bestows some unexplained sense on the character, but it's never explained.

The love stories are basically even more conventional than the bad space ships. The characters are strong powerful women, and the men are a weird mix of aliens, strong dark types, white knights, and liberal Occupy style-activists.

The conception of government in her universe is also worth of scorn. There are no factions, no depth, no nothing. It's just a static block. Really, really terrible.

The sex scenes feel lifted from the fantasies of a fat ugly girl who gets dropped into the body of an attractive person for a few hours.

Anonymous Daniel June 05, 2013 1:32 PM  

Jill, categorization is a total pain in the neck for marketing purposes, but the author should determine the genre as best as he will understand the paying readers to understand it.

However, there is obviously a disconnect regarding the Sci-fi/Fantasy/Speculative/Paranormal/etc. genres. What has happened is that marketing and expansion of definition has done demonstrable damage to the sci-fi genre's sales in books, even though other media have done fine with the "restricted" defintion.

When a consumer, male or female is invited to a sci-fi movie, both expect something dealing with a speculative (plausible or implausible) idea that either directly involves scientific innovation (bioengineering, the dangers/drama/opportunity therof) or space travel. Aliens, lasers or robots will be anticipated. But a book? You can't have those expectations, because somehow vampire erotica and historical romances are now labeled as "sci-fi". It isn't really a genre anymore. It is just a bunch of unrelated books on the shelf. The marketing zip that movies and video games get from sci-fi is absolutely useless for true sci-fi, and more than a little confusing for

Every woman I have ever met who says she's a fan of "sci-fi" books lists Hunger Games, Twilight, Harry Potter, and I Am Number Four as their favorites.

It really is that distinct. There are Women's Magazines. There should be a Women's Science Fiction category. It isn't that hard to separate the genres as a reader, but when you end up going to a wall (or virtual wall) of patchwork books, it naturally drives folks away: it is horrible marketing.

When Felicia Day's "Vaginal Fantasy" club talks about sci-fi, they are talking about syfy that is considered fantastic because in real life its plot would lead to syphy. It has absolutely nothing to do with molecular-level transfer of nanotechnology through wormholes to circumnavigate the distance between stars.

It is a silly thing. It's not like normal Sci-Fi can't just go off and re-develop its own brand name. My guess is that it will return to "Science Fiction" and leave the Sigh Fie to the ladies to self-select out of the more complex demands of the genre. Fantasy will likely divide between Epic Fantasy and Phantasea. Basically, lady-dominated genres outside of Romance become Romance with bad spelling.

Then there are the weirdos who are just lucky if they can figure out a couple of keywords to go with their books for search.

But here's a primer:

Science Fiction - Transhumanism - the bio-processing and its unintended consequences.
Sigh Fie - If I have sex with two robots, does it count as cheating?

Science Fiction - FTL travel serves as an ongoing challenge for the crew...and the reader.
Sigh Fie - FTL travel means the heroine can carry on two relationships at once to determine which one is the more fulfilling.

Science Fiction - Time travel carries severe consequences on the traveller, includes two separate, distinct, and likely incompatible (because the science is different) methods for moving forward and backward.
Sigh Fie - Time travel carries a lot of the heroine's baggage with her, and includes two separate, distinct and likely incompatible romantic interests: a rogue with a shady past, and a roguish rake with a shady future.

Science Fiction - Bioengineering results in drastic consequences for humanity.
Sigh Fie - Bioengineering results in two vaginas for the heroine, with the consequence of broadening her range of choice.

Science Fiction - ...oh you get it. The fact is that there are plenty of stories that have to squeeze a little to fit into the Science Fiction get-up...but at a certain point, it's time to switch costumes.

Anonymous Daniel June 05, 2013 1:34 PM  

Oops. Not "every woman." Almost every woman. The ones who like traditional sci-fi are a handful, and they are the sort of nerd who doesn't pretend that being a nerd is sexy.

Blogger IM2L844 June 05, 2013 1:38 PM  

But I’m still here. I’m still writing. You cannot shut me up. I will NOT SIT DOWN. I will not stand quietly by anymore. I am a woman. I write SF. And it’s not acceptable to treat me as anything less than an equal. I won’t stand for it. And I won’t get your fucking coffee. –Ann Aguirre

You have a wonderfully dry sense of humor. What are you wearing?

Anonymous Jill June 05, 2013 2:03 PM  

Daniel, you assume I get it. I think you've just confused me further. The mind reels. Since I'm a sampler in all genres and read mostly nonfiction, I haven't read deeply in this "sigh fie." My idea of sci fi is culled from David Brin and Neal Stephenson (etc). Why isn't erotica the broad category for sigh fie, then? It seems it would be more productive from a marketing standpoint to call it erotica--->sci fi/fantasy/paranormal. I didn't call my book sci-fi or fantasy because, to me, it didn't fit either of those categories, despite the presence of dragons and time travel. It's really more of a Dickensian "A Christmas Carolesque" quest. So choosing a category was a real pain. A friend who used to be in publishing decided Time Travel Romance was the best fit. I really wish I'd gone with Gothic Romance.

Anonymous Stickwick June 05, 2013 2:04 PM  

Daniel, when did this shift from sci-fi to sigh-fie take place? I read only a little fiction, and then typically only pre-1980s stuff, so it was news to me that anything other than traditional nuts-and-bolts speculative science stories were being classified as SF. When did this goofy space romance stuff start working its way into SF?

Blogger Nate June 05, 2013 2:05 PM  

"Getting anyone coffee would be a big improvement if it takes you away from writing. No one cares if you momentarily lift your lardy ass off your chair and refuse to sit down. Judging by your work, your target market are half-retarded teenage girls with body-image issues and middle-aged housewives with unfulfilled sex lives. The writing style is childish, and your biggest praise and noteworthiness come from USA Today, the most average newspaper in the country."

I would just like to point out... that this was written by our token liberal.

Blogger wrf3 June 05, 2013 2:10 PM  

Ann wrote: I will NOT SIT DOWN.

I'd hate to see your bathroom...

If you aren't being treated as an equal, perhaps it isn't because you're a woman. After all, I grew up reading Andre Norton. I buy everything Lois Bujold publishes. I understand why Alice Sheldon published under the pseudonym Jame Tiptree, Jr. I've read and enjoyed most of LeGuin's work. And so it goes.

Perhaps there's another reason?

Blogger Joshua Dyal June 05, 2013 2:30 PM  

Katherine Kerr is pretty good. Peter Brett isn't bad. The rest are irrelevant.

Kelly McCullough is writing stuff I like (although it's fantasy, not science fiction.) Harry Connelly's Twenty Palaces society had a lot of promise as a darker, more Lovecraftian Dresden Files kinda story, although it faltered and ran out of steam before it could ever really turn into anything significant.

But yeah--nitpicking over a few names doesn't in any way invalidate the point that most of these guys are complete non-entities, and who cares what they say about Resnick anyway?

Peter Brett's entire post is actually quite interesting, as it also manages to be a rather scathing condemnation of the SFWA anyway.

Anonymous Obvious June 05, 2013 2:38 PM  

Nice of you to steal Jim Hines list without giving him credit for it. :)

Blogger JDC June 05, 2013 2:44 PM  

Someone demands that someone else be punished for saying something offensive.

I never quite understood why Tad got his/her/other panties in a bunch because Vox wasn't properly editing (or censoring) posts the collective known as Tad found to be offensive. I don't know that i want to understand it, other than to be able to recognize it, and then point and laugh.

Anonymous Daniel June 05, 2013 2:47 PM  

when did this shift from sci-fi to sigh-fie take place?

Like a gentle sea in a distant galaxy, whose waves gently lap at the coruscating blue-white shorelines of the nitrogen-planet Rhombek, where the plastic trees grow untouched by human hands, except for the ones at the ends of Dash Masculynn's rippling arms, as they course roughly over Kat Blasterpistol's heaving scientific mind...

Oh, what, where was I? Oh yeah. It was gradual. The distribution crash of the early 90s (or thereabouts) kind of marked a major disruption in the science fiction channel itself. You stopped seeing Greg Bear and those sort of paperbacks at the grocery store, for example. There was a bunch of LGBLT(or whatever that acronym is) polticized stuff pushing through in alternate channels, and the softer LGBFF stuff was published in the struggling magazines (oh, there was a big magazine bubble that popped in 88 or so - Omni was always doing sex-agenda stuff, but every sinking ship reprised their college experiments toward the end).

I think I noticed paranormal fiction and urban fantasy beginning to show up in the "wrong section" of the book store about 1998. Those were the Trojan Horses that began to make the sci-fi section less and less interesting to men and boys who had been the staples there for the previous 20 years. By 2000, there was a distinct decay: boys went over to the young adult section for their Harry Potter and science fiction that was interesting to them was more likely to be considered juvenile: i.e. something to grow out of unless you wanted a sex change operation when you grew up.

2005, it was evident. Paranormal and Urban Fantasy was the science fiction section, with a few nods to throw-backs and progressive "gentle fantasy" writers like Neil Gaiman.

If I had to state when the point of the spear went in, I'd guess 1997.

I'm probably wrong. I usually am.

Anonymous VD June 05, 2013 2:52 PM  

Nice of you to steal Jim Hines list without giving him credit for it. :)

Of course I did. To whom did you think "One of the cross-dressing lights of the New Equalitarians" referred?


Blogger IM2L844 June 05, 2013 2:55 PM  

I just want someone to explain the phenomenon of all those SFWA ladies menstrual cycle's syncing up.

Anonymous kh123 June 05, 2013 2:56 PM  

" Big surprise - powerful woman, here her roar."

Ah, there it is.

dh wins some 'spect.

Anonymous Daniel June 05, 2013 3:03 PM  

Jill
My idea of sci fi -

That's the point. Your idea of sci-fi, like mine, is anathema from the current SFWA mob in question. David Brin doesn't write fiction anymore, or at least he hasn't for about 13 years. Neal Stephenson, to my knowledge, is not an SFWA member. Werewolves, and the women who love them, however? That's now solidly what they consider Sigh Fie.

The Sci-Fi Channel on cable changed its name to SyFy to appeal to women, and now features a number of relationship-driven romances with speculative trappings.

Your time travel romance might just be a romance. Or it might be an outlier. Or it might be paranormal. The fact that you don't consider it to be science fiction makes me suspect that it is not science fiction. Romance is an extremely broad category of relationship-centered fiction, and it has many subdivisional categories. The SFWA has become a category error - it is as if the Beef Council came up with the promotion: "The Other White Meat."

Steak isn't pork, and therein lies the confusion. Normal people simply do not expect Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers to come out opposed to Science Fiction and Fantasy.

Anonymous Salt June 05, 2013 3:04 PM  

Here's your Warrior Princess Vox.

Anonymous jack June 05, 2013 3:08 PM  

@Daniel: Do you know why Brin stopped with the fiction so long ago? Just out of new ideas, maybe. Just curious; I would be interested in buying and reading some of his fiction were he to restart the grind stone.

Anonymous jack June 05, 2013 3:10 PM  

@Salt: A transgendered Seal? On so many levels this is just wrong...I mean really wrong.

We are doomed...

Anonymous jack June 05, 2013 3:17 PM  

Nice of you to steal Jim Hines list without giving him credit for it. :)

I had wondered how Vox had had the time to compile that list. I know he said this week was a bear with everything going on. I was going to email him some thoughts on ebook voice work and decided to hold it in for awhile.

Sure: if someone has done the good work and don't mind why not distribute their work a little wider over the dark and foreboding seas of Cuntatore the planet of endless discontent and short fuses not to mention maladjusted brains programed by Morlock for the enjoyment of the fallen.

I would have too.

Blogger JDC June 05, 2013 3:25 PM  

@Salt: A transgendered Seal?

It opens the door to a new writing genre - paranormal erotic militaristic gender bending sci fi. I can't wait.

Anonymous Daniel June 05, 2013 3:32 PM  

Do you know why Brin stopped with the fiction so long ago? Just out of new ideas, maybe. Just curious; I would be interested in buying and reading some of his fiction were he to restart the grind stone.

I'm sure there are authors here who have personal interaction with him but my guess is three things:

1) The Postman movie came out in 1997, rendering the financial need to tell more stories (which he did part-time. He had a full academic career too.) somewhat moot. I believe Kevin Costner projects tend to pay at above the SFWA minimum.

2) He's retirement age or thereabouts. I think Vox once speculated that fiction writing has about a 20-year window that starts in earnest at 40. GRR certainly serves as a living example of what happens when you try to produce something as intellectually complex as a good book into your 60s. I was very glad that Vance basically finished with a memoir, is what I will say to that.

3) The Postman movie. I'm guessing it paid well.

4) I would not be surprised if the publish industry sea change of the 2000s was not kind to Brin. I have no idea what his contracts were like, but I think he was maybe still thought of as upper midlist? Writers whose books sold just fine, but not so fine that anyone at the publishing house thought they couldn't be replaced with a cheaper debut author with a worse contract. I'm not saying his exit wasn't voluntary - I have no idea - I'm just saying that publishing wasn't very fun for cats like him nearing the end of their career. 2009 or 10 seemed particularly heinous, but it was bad well before that.

5) Well, I'd mention the movie again, but we all know that the Postman only Brins twice.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 05, 2013 3:33 PM  

I just want someone to explain the phenomenon of all those SFWA ladies menstrual cycle's syncing up.

Appears to be a natural phenomenon. Women sync up their cycles when in close proximity.

Probably an evolutionary strategy to encourage the men to go on at least one big hunting trip per month.

Anonymous Cail Corishev June 05, 2013 3:38 PM  

When I joined the Science Fiction Book Club in about 1984, as I recall, my first shipment of books included: a couple of the Thomas Covenant books, the Belgariad (5 book series in 2 book club volumes), the Chronicles of Amber (5 in 2), Ender's War (the first two Ender books in one volume), the Garrett Files by Glen Cook (3 in 1), the First Book of Swords by Saberhagen (3 in 1), The Dragonbone Chair by Tad Williams, one of the Stainless Steel Rat books, and something by each of Asimov and Piers Anthony. Best $1 I ever spent, and I think I picked most of them out based on the blurbs in the catalog. That's how good the selection was then.

Most of those are fantasy, of course, but they were epic fantasy, not this vampire romance stuff. At some point in the 1990s (maybe when Clan of the Cave Bear showed up in the mail), the quality had dipped so far that I started hitting more duds than good ones, and I gave up buying anything new except continuations of series I already had. Now there's so much new stuff out there that I don't know what to try, and I suppose I'm kind of gun-shy from all the bad and mediocre books I bought in the late 90s.

Anonymous Jill June 05, 2013 3:43 PM  

@Daniel, I wouldn't even dare imply my work is sci fi. Fantasy, maybe. Two of the three people who reviewed it called it fantasy. The other called it urban fantasy. Whatever. It doesn't matter, I guess. I was mostly commiserating with the difficulty in categorizing work. In the case of Ann above, her book descriptions sound like romances in fantasy narratives. So, although I can understand the point of being irritated that sci fi and fantasy have been co-opted, I'm not sure she's being deceptive about what her books are. It's more annoying (to me) that somebody who is both published and a bestselling author is complaining about how people within the genre don't respect her. Aside from success, what other kind of respect does she want, anyway?

Anonymous Jill June 05, 2013 3:46 PM  

If somebody made a movie like the Postman based off my book, I'd probably bow out of the industry for good, too.

Blogger IM2L844 June 05, 2013 3:48 PM  

Probably an evolutionary strategy to encourage the men to go on at least one big hunting trip per month.

Seems to me they're encouraging men to seek other options for all sorts of stuff and that's okay. Other options abound.

Anonymous Cail Corishev June 05, 2013 3:52 PM  

It opens the door to a new writing genre - paranormal erotic militaristic gender bending sci fi. I can't wait.

I had that book once, given it as a gift in about 1987. Can't remember the name, but the protagonist was a hermaphrodite who had blocked out knowledge of his female parts by some trauma, so he considered himself male until the big reveal late in the book. He was in a military cadre with a few other gender-bending shape-shifters (seems like some were part wolf too), and they also had powerful pheromones and some sort of mind control through them.

Yes, it was as bad as it sounds.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 05, 2013 3:54 PM  

@Salt: A transgendered Seal?

Life imitates fiction - a shape-changing were-seal.

Anonymous WaterBoy June 05, 2013 4:23 PM  

Daniel: "5) Well, I'd mention the movie again, but we all know that the Postman only Brins twice."

Ouch. That one was just.......ouch.

Anonymous Inane Rambler June 05, 2013 4:25 PM  

dh: "The writing style is childish, and your biggest praise and noteworthiness come from USA Today, the most average newspaper in the country."

The comment this came from is outstanding.

Anonymous Inane Rambler June 05, 2013 4:29 PM  

I wonder if the reason we see these authors, who mostly just write romance with fantasy/sf trappings here but don't recognize them is because book stores categorize them as Romance, not as SF/F, but since they have those trappings they qualify for SFWA.

Blogger Justthisguy June 05, 2013 4:31 PM  

Oh God I miss Hal Clement. I judge the quality of SF by how closely it resembles what he wrote. He was a Real Man in Real Life, too. Colonel Stubbs, to call him by his True Name, flew B-24s in combat with the Mighty Eighth, all the while getting stories published in Astounding.

I, too, never heard of any of those people, and have been a voracious consumer of Sf since I was a little kid, over half a century ago. Hell, My Momma bought me subscriptions to Analog and Galaxy, back when I was 12 or so.

Anonymous DrTorch June 05, 2013 4:43 PM  

Cheering in sports now labeled as "bullying"

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/highschool-prep-rally/hampshire-senior-wins-state-title-foe-walks-off-184904986.html

Not officially. Yet.

"Why do women ruin everything?" Indeed.

Anonymous Mudz June 05, 2013 4:56 PM  

That list has the cumulative effect of basically saying:

"We're offended cos they're old."

-

I think I read one of Katherine Kerr's books, called the 'Red Wyvern' (book 2) or somesuch. It was perfectly good writing. Some sideshow Jesus/Christian that was an interesting glimpse of perspective, and a character that was transgender by virtue of gender-equalitarian reincarnation, but a pretty decent 'pagans-were-legit' kind of story.

A little G.R.R Martin similarity in the moral landscape, if I remember correctly. (They were pagans after all.)

I don't know if you guys would necessarily enjoy the story itself, but it's told competently, at least in book 2.

I don't recognise the others, but I'm not a book junkie.

-

@ Cail

Yeah, I read one like that once. Called 'Rings of the Martyrs' or somesuch, except it was deliberate surgery, and the captain was a twisted-porn-addicted rapist, and uh, lesbians and transgenders etc and stuff. Probably some beastiality too, I no longer remember anything past the part where a couple of (girl twins I think) got transmuted into male/female animals.

This is a part of where my deep hatred of sexually-preoccupied sci-fi comes from.

Blogger Justthisguy June 05, 2013 4:56 PM  

That name, "Aguirre", tickled my mind. I now realize it reminded me of a movie, "Aguirre: Der Zorn Gottes." In this post and comments, it's more like "Vox: Der Zorn Gottes."

Anonymous kh123 June 05, 2013 5:05 PM  

Ann Aguirre: The Wrath of Godawful.

Anonymous Stickwick June 05, 2013 5:15 PM  

If I had to state when the point of the spear went in, I'd guess 1997.

Right in the middle of the Clinton era. Wonder if there's any correlation. In any case, thanks for the explanation.

Anonymous jack June 05, 2013 5:24 PM  

Justthisguy June 05, 2013 4:31 PM

Oh God I miss Hal Clement

I suspect that Tom Kratman is the reincarnation or at least alter ego of Clement. You might like his military/SF stuff.

Anonymous jack June 05, 2013 5:32 PM  

@Daniel: 5) Well, I'd mention the movie again, but we all know that the Postman only Brins twice.
Thanks for the thoughts. I did not realize Brin wrote the Postman. I suspect the book is certainly better than that movie. I did watch it through to the end but wish I had not. Seemed like a lot of promise the first half hour or so.

Oh well....

Anonymous jack June 05, 2013 5:51 PM  

@Daniel:
Just went to amazon to snare the Postman by Brin on Kindle. Guess what! He has a new book out this year titled 'Existence'. I'll probably get both.

Anonymous Scintan June 05, 2013 6:02 PM  

I seem to be in the minority, in that I've never liked Kerr's work and think she's a lousy read. Maybe she's gotten better since the mid-90's, but she was shit back then.

On the other hand, I seem to be in the majority in that I think Aguirre's issues likely stem at least partly from the fact that she probably weighs more than your average midsized sedan.

As for the rest, it's always telling when the censors insist that they're not in favor of censorship, even as they're calling for it.

Anonymous Daniel June 05, 2013 6:32 PM  

Guess what! He has a new book out this year titled 'Existence'. I'll probably get both.

That's great. Thanks for the head's up. Had no idea. I just remember patiently waiting for the next book to come out back in '05, '06, '07, '08...then finally figuring out he wasn't on the 10 year plan, apparently. I'm getting it too. Hope his science is still as salty as it always was.

The Postman novel, btw is vastly superior to the movie, despite a decent-sized flaw, forgivable because of the overall spirit of the book. The first half hour of the movie, I believe, is something that resembles the novel. If you squint.

Blogger Justthisguy June 05, 2013 6:50 PM  

@ Jack: Oh yes indeed I love Lt.-Colonel Kratman's stuff, and read it at every opportunity. You should read his essay about how women could actually be made to function in combat, and the novel he wrote about it. In the novel, the Amazon Legion is trained by male homo drill sergeants, to avoid sexual favoritism. That's just one of the weird ideas in that book, which is real SF, in asking "WHat if?" and proposing weird non-standard ideas.

Anonymous jaciii June 05, 2013 6:52 PM  

Poor Ann; won't sit down and won't stand for it either.
Female can't make up her mind.

Anonymous Mudz June 05, 2013 6:58 PM  

My mistake, it was Book 1.

@ Scintan

I rate her as competent based simply on her ability to write. What she was writing is different. I didn't find the story compelling, but that's just me.

Not a powerful endorsement, I know, but I wanted to point out something positive about one of the authors.

Blogger Justthisguy June 05, 2013 7:48 PM  

@kh: That was good. I am not exactly famous for my wit, but was happy to provide the straight line which inspired you. Keep it up, Sir, please.

Anonymous jack June 05, 2013 7:58 PM  

@ Justthisguy

Yeah, I've read all four of the Desert called Peace series which included Amazon Legion as #4. The number 5 book in that series is due in Nov. Having trouble waiting.

His 'State of Disobedience' is also pretty good. Its about the state of Texas getting pissed off and leaving the union. You gotta love it...

Anonymous jack June 05, 2013 7:59 PM  

@Daniel: Am looking forward to reading Postman first then Existence. Should be interesting to see any changes. The man has some rock solid credentials and a book list that will keep me entertained for some time to come.

Blogger Justthisguy June 05, 2013 9:09 PM  

Wow, I'm amazed that I've commented this much today. Mostly I just lurk, because the only comment I could make would be something like "I concur." I reckon I got flicked on a raw spot, finding out who messed with my SF.

As others have carefully pointed out, this has been going on for a while. Why, I believe it was on this very blog, a year or four ago, where I first read the phrase, "morbidly obese Lesbian shoggoths", describing some gals at a feminist SF con.

I am proud to say that I was the first person to write on this blog, "SF is all ate up with girl cooties."

Anonymous Sigyn June 05, 2013 9:30 PM  

Poor Ann; won't sit down and won't stand for it either.

You'll notice she didn't say she wouldn't take it lying down, though...

Anonymous LCB June 05, 2013 9:32 PM  

No surprise seeing K. Tempest Bradford on this list, a self-righteous drama queen and amoral, relentless self-promoter of herself as The Black Woman of SF Fandom, who speaks for all black people and women involved in SF for what is beyond the bounds of good taste and what should be boycotted.

She's been involved many of these kerfuffles and explosions of sound and fury over non-controversies, and from what I can tell her most recent, biggest deal fiction wise was having a story published a few years ago at the Strange Horizons site, one of those drippy "C-can't we all just get along?" takes on the issue of terrorism that might as well have featured illustrations of Ghandi hugging puppies whilst surrounded by hearts and flowers.

I've flipped through a couple of anthologies edited by Moreno-Garcia and Lockhart (I was intrigued by an upcoming anthology put together by Lockhart with a new publisher in the wake of Night Shade Books' collapse but now I must give pause), P. Nielsen Hayden has proven himself to be a dweeb yet again, and then there's the likes Aguirre and Saintcrow representing the sexy tough chicks and the demons/space aliens/werewolves/what the hell ever that make sexytime with them bs that's been swamping "SF" for years now.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 05, 2013 9:38 PM  

You'll notice she didn't say she wouldn't take it lying down, though...

She'll have to find someone else to give it. I need to wash... something. Maybe the BBQ grill.

Anonymous Anonymous June 05, 2013 10:25 PM  

Here's Laura dodging the issues: http://lauraresnickauthor.wordpress.com/2013/06/05/thoughts-from-a-different-resnick/

OpenID thule222 June 05, 2013 10:29 PM  

The women are squawking because the old sf guys were talking about this beautiful editor they were in love with back in the day, Bea Mahaffey.

I googled her and she's worth talking about. Here she is with a friend, wowing an early sf fan.

http://fanac.org/worldcon/NYcon/w56-009.jpeg

Frankly, I'm not surprised the old guys are still swooning over her.

Anonymous dh June 05, 2013 10:45 PM  

Frankly, I'm not surprised the old guys are still swooning over her.

My wife said it best when my school-age children started having little spats over neighborhood boys - "ultimately ever slight, every push, every nasty look comes down to girls fighting over a boy".

Anonymous Maddog June 06, 2013 5:37 AM  

The only speech that needs protecting is offensive speech.
Something Sick Pup Scalzi has forgotten.

He has also forgotten that in a free society, it means that people will be free to do things and share views that he doesn't agree with.

Vox, Punch that Pinko Commie Rabbit for me please.

He's gonna try and rewrite Fahrenheit 451 one day, where the hero of the book is ok with burning certain books certain books.

Death to the New Flesh of Hypocritical Ignorance wrapped in Egotistical Smarmy rags of Tripe.

Anonymous DaveP. June 23, 2013 3:21 PM  

I had thought better of Ursula Vernon. I still intend to buy the "Digger" books one day, but I'll do with them what I do wth Narbonic and Schlock: buy themn used, so the authors can be spared my filthy right-wing male money.

May I also say that I've laughed out loud at this comment section more tahn I have at some 'comedy' movies.

Blogger Francis W. Porretto June 24, 2013 4:41 PM  

I would venture to guess that the lady writers in Vox's post have done themselves far more harm than they did to Resnick and Malzberg. At least, I don't expect to buy any of their books ever again.

Apropos of the original dustup, this is another data point for my contention that all organized groups obey Conquest's Laws of Politics, which for me is reason enough to avoid them.

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