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Wednesday, August 21, 2013

A father's concern

A new soccer season has begun and I was talking to Ender after our practices yesterday. He happened to mention, in passing, that he'd gotten into another fight with his teammates towards the end of last season. This wasn't anything new. Like me, he's an outsider by nature, and although he gets along fine with his teammates most of the time, the fact that he only joined this team two years ago, was the youngest on the team last year, and is observably different than the others tends to make him an occasional target given the usual group dynamics.  Things are also a little more rough-and-tumble here in Europe because fighting in school is largely ignored by the teachers unless someone gets badly hurt.

His first season with the club, he had to beat up the son of the assistant coach, (who is a teammate of mine), which didn't faze anyone, including the boy's father, since the kid is a little fireball who can be set off by anything.  (Ironically, despite the fact that this boy and Ender dislike each other, they play very well on defense together, much better than any other two defenders or midfielders. The father and I both find this very amusing.)

That season Ender also had to deal with two other boys egging a third boy on to attack him, and sent the boy running away crying by smashing his cleats into the boy's face after blocking his punch.  When I asked him why he hadn't used any judo techniques, he shrugged and said that he had been holding his cleats in his right hand and it hadn't occurred to him to drop them.  The two instigators tried lying to the coach and claimed Ender attacked all three of them, but the coach is no idiot, and to the third boy's credit, when asked about the situation he told the truth and exposed the other two boys.

This year I noticed the star of last year's team, X, who had always been fairly friendly to Ender, being just a little colder to him than usual at the field.  When I asked what was up, Ender explained that he had beaten up X and his friend towards the end of the second season. I was more than a little surprised to hear this, not so much because he was outnumbered, but because X is an exceptional athlete, is bigger and older than Ender, and is easily the strongest, fastest player on the field.  I mean, the boy could play with my veteran's team and not only hold his own, but probably be one of the top five players on the field.  He's also a year older than Ender, and this year has gone up to play on the team that is one level below the adult first team. Judo or no judo, X would have been the one player I would have expected to get the better of Ender in any physical encounter.

Ender explained that X's best friend, L, was acting up and threw a kick at him, so he caught the foot and walked it forward, thereby putting L on the ground. Seeing his best friend go down, X jumped in, caught Ender from behind and threw him down by his shoulders.  However, while going down, Ender went to hook X's leg and ended up catching his knee, he then rolled, came up, punched X in the face, then put him in a judo lock and told him to knock it off.  Thus ended the encounter, with no one seriously injured. But X's pride as the undisputed alpha male of the team had been bruised, hence the uncharacteristic coldness. On the other hand, Ender rather bemusedly observed that all the other players have been strangely respectful this season.

I'm not entirely sure he has put two and two together yet. I'll explain it to him one of these days.

As a father, I was naturally concerned about this, so I asked Ender if the punch he had thrown was a jab or if he had made the common mistake of leading with the rear hand. When he indicated the latter, I began to point out why that had been a risky move, as one always wants to open the opponent without risking the exposure intrinsic to a rear hand.  But when I asked him why he'd led with the rear despite having been repeatedly told not to do so, he explained that at the time, X was doubled over and clutching his knee, therefore he was already open, there was no risk using the rear hand, and Ender could deliver more force with it.

I haven't really sparred with him yet or trained him anywhere nearly as much as I should have.  But somehow, I think he's going to be just fine.

Labels:

145 Comments:

Anonymous Outlaw X August 21, 2013 6:41 AM  

Vox, Used to be the culture of the south when I was in school, if someone was not seriously hurt you ether got the paddle or after school detention. Oh my! how things have changed.

Anonymous daddynichol August 21, 2013 7:18 AM  

My grandsons are constantly fed the "violence is not the answer" crap in school and see it touted on all levels of media. I tell them to ignore it and defend themselves. Fortunately, their parents agree.

Anonymous Sigyn August 21, 2013 7:18 AM  

Your concern is...his technique.

Men!

Anonymous Will Best August 21, 2013 7:31 AM  

My grandsons are constantly fed the "violence is not the answer" crap in school

I was fed that crap too, and I was bullied mercilessly from 4th grade to 8th grade when I finally defended myself resulting in a very confused and ultimately very humiliated bully. The result was no more bullying ever again. I served my two weeks of detention with a smile.

Blogger Amy August 21, 2013 7:39 AM  

Excellent. I find the encouragement to talk things out distasteful, especially for boys. If my son is like my husband, he'll be OK, but if he's like me (outsider, introvert) I fear for him unless he learns to take the alphas down. It's too early to tell.

Vox, you have daughters as well, non?

I wonder if you or others could weigh in on whether or not your daughters encounter physical intimidation in social settings, or if they experience verbal harassment on any level. I was the subject of much humiliation as a child. I was not particularly pretty (late bloomer), very smart and was always top in my class, bookish and nerdy, introvert, religious even by Catholic school standards. I never, ever found a way to deal with the name-calling and intimidation at the hands of prettier alpha girls, and in high school I was physically assaulted a few times before my parents transferred me to a different school.

I see similar personality traits in one of my daughters and I wonder how I will counsel her if/when she encounters similar situations. My mom and dad told me it was just something I'd have to deal with or ignore. Not certain that is the best advice.

Anonymous Cinco August 21, 2013 7:48 AM  

Ahh, this reminds me of the good old days.

Anonymous Herman the German August 21, 2013 7:56 AM  

I haven't really sparred with him yet or trained him anywhere nearly as much as I should have. But somehow, I think he's going to be just fine.

-Knowing about you, Vox, & what you've allowed to be shared on this blog... WE HAVE NO DOUBT, Sir.

-------

Amy said - I wonder if you or others could weigh in on whether or not your daughters encounter physical intimidation in social settings, or if they experience verbal harassment on any level.

- Amy, I have three children. My middle child is female & turns nine later this year. She is very pretty (i know, a father's bias...lol), but she really is & because of that, even at such an early age, she has already been at times mightily abused verbally by jealous girls. Also being smart & sort of "sigma" (meaning she doesn't fall prey to a lot of social coercion) has contributed to this phenomenon as well. My eldest (15 male) has been in plenty of physical fights, but I would have to say that females, even at this young age tend to be FAR more verbally abusive and generally "meaner" than boys, IMHO.

Anonymous trk August 21, 2013 7:57 AM  

How old was Ender when he started martial arts? I have a 4yr old son and would like to get him started, but I want it to be at the right age. Thanks

Anonymous JohnR August 21, 2013 7:58 AM  

I played football with a guy years ago and we HATED each other...but on the football field we were an unstoppable team on the field. He was defensive end and I was the outside linebacker...No one got around out end...We would flatten them...The only time we spoke civilly to one another was on the field.

The coaches used to make use play different positions in practice so they could run plays around our end...

Off the field, we would have killed each other and this was back in 1971/72...

Anonymous Logan August 21, 2013 7:58 AM  

I think I recall that you said in one of the previous threads related to martial arts that you have trained in Wing Chun. I'm considering taking up Wing Chun to add to my Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and was wondering if you consider it to be a fairly effective style.

I imagine that the adage "school over style" is relevant here, insofar as training at a good school that implements full-contact sparring under the tutelage of a knowledgeable and experienced instructor is often more important than any particular style. Some karate black belts don't know a thing about fighting whereas others are genuine badasses.

Regarding Wing Chun, I usually exercise a certain amount of skepticism regarding the efficacy of many traditional martial arts until I have some evidence that some of their practitioners can hold their own against people who are very good fighters. I've seen and heard of umpteen cases where some martial arts "master" got his ass handed to him by a trained boxer. Can a Wing Chun practitioner develop the reflexes needed to keep from getting pummeled by a good boxer's lighting-fast combination?

Blogger Nate August 21, 2013 7:59 AM  

Good leadership lesson for the bigger kid. One doesn't lower himself to get involved in the physical confrontations of his team. The voice of the alpha alone should be enough to defuse the situation.

Anonymous VD August 21, 2013 8:01 AM  

My mom and dad told me it was just something I'd have to deal with or ignore. Not certain that is the best advice.

That's really all you can do. If your daughter is not quick enough to deal with it effectively on her own and the teachers are unwilling to put an end to that sort of thing, then she'll just have to endure it. This is why parents often comment that girls are much more cruel than boys. The boys will fight, forget it, and move on. The girls will, not infrequently, behave that way towards the targeted girl for the rest of their lives.

A girl who is physically assaulted is fortunate. Once the mean girls take it to that level, you can train her to fight and she can beat the hell out of them. The problem is when they don't. Either way, the confidence in knowing she is prepared for any physical contest is helpful to a girl, an amount of martial arts training that involves actual sparring might be helpful.

Of course, she could also tell the other girls that if they don't leave her alone, her Daddy will rape them, kill them, chop them up and feed them to the dogs. That won't prevent them from talking about her, but they'll probably do so where she can't hear them. Girls with sufficiently scary daddies don't tend to have a lot of trouble with other girls.

Blogger Nate August 21, 2013 8:03 AM  

"Your concern is...his technique.

Men!"

His concern... is he doesn't want his son to throw with his back hand first... and wake up in the hospital.

Anonymous VD August 21, 2013 8:09 AM  

How old was Ender when he started martial arts?

He was 11 when he formally started. I'd given him a few basic techniques, one of which was an arm bar he managed to put to good use on two occasions, prior to then. You can start earlier with technique stuff, but they really can't effectively spar until they are 12-14.

Regarding Wing Chun, I usually exercise a certain amount of skepticism regarding the efficacy of many traditional martial arts until I have some evidence that some of their practitioners can hold their own against people who are very good fighters. I've seen and heard of umpteen cases where some martial arts "master" got his ass handed to him by a trained boxer. Can a Wing Chun practitioner develop the reflexes needed to keep from getting pummeled by a good boxer's lighting-fast combination?

It's not a question of the efficacy, but the actual fighting experience. No martial artist is a true master unless he's regularly engaged in heavy contact sparring at the very least. There is nothing fake about the martial arts; I've used them, my friends have used them, and now my son has used them in real physical confrontations. But training HAS to be supplemented with experience. It's no different than the military; no matter how well the troops are trained, they are still green and clueless until they see combat.

Considering that Bruce Lee was a student of Wing Chun, I think your question can obviously be answered in the affirmative. I've fought boxers before, and they can chop you up if you let them inside, but the well-trained multi-discipline fighter will beat them without much trouble. The wrestlers are the toughest single-discipline fighters.

Blogger Ron August 21, 2013 8:12 AM  

Annnd this article is why women like spacebunny prefer to give their eggs to the alpha.

Blogger Nate August 21, 2013 8:13 AM  

This reminds me of a kid that spars regularly with my sons' TKD class... he also had a bad habit of leading with his back hand. Most of the kids didn't have the skill to take advantage of it... so it didn't matter.

Then he made the mistake against the wrong kid and got his snapped back from a headkick hard enough that he didn't spar again for a couple weeks.

TKD is not a particularly effective form of actual fighting. But... One does not want to make a telegraphed striking mistake against someone that spends his life searching for that one spectacular head kick.

Blogger Nate August 21, 2013 8:17 AM  

"The wrestlers are the toughest single-discipline fighters."

This.

Wrestlers are the devil. the vast majority of real fights go to ground at some point... and once you're there... against a wrestler you're doomed.

And don't bother talking to me about jitz. The UFC has already proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that wrestlers win.

Anonymous Outlaw X August 21, 2013 8:17 AM  

How old was Ender when he started martial arts? I have a 4yr old son and would like to get him started, but I want it to be at the right age. Thanks

My dad taqught me to box with gloves at age 6 and put me in the martial arts in the 5th grade. Yet even now it was insufficient as I grow older and looked into and took Krav Maga as my health and strength started to fail. There is no clear answer that I know. Back when I was athletic Goju Kai Karate was sufficient.

Blogger mmaier2112 August 21, 2013 8:19 AM  

"As a father, I was naturally concerned about this, "

This sentence has me grinning like an idiot. Great piece, Vox.


I was just talking to my 14yr old nephew on Sunday about this stuff. He says he just wants to chill and hang out but he has guys around him AMOG-wanna-bes jockeying for status and drawing him into stupid fights. He's getting interested in girls and that can't help but involve more status drama in the future too.

He seems a little lost and I'm wondering if it's worse than he's letting on. My brother's a teacher at his school and I've heard him tell my nephew "Just walk away". Except that doesn't work with some jerks. I know it didn't for me in high school.

I wish I lived near him so we could both find a good place to take our lumps and learn to give them. But he lives 1000 miles away.

Anonymous FUBAR Nation Ben August 21, 2013 8:22 AM  

What is the best martial art for self defense, and one that actually trains you to fight in real life situations? When I took karate/tae kwon do at 9 years old it was all about form and there was no real fighting.

Blogger Ron August 21, 2013 8:23 AM  

@VD

With respect, I don't think it's just about technique and physical training. Since I've started fighting, it's been pointed out to me, and I've seen for myself that the personality of the fighter comes through in the fight.

I've seen young men in near-perfect physical condition get trounced because their broken, passive aggressive personality defeats them in the fight. I've had men half my size throw me about and trip me up because they show the same centred courage and engaging aggression that they do when I speak with them off the mat.

I think one of the most important consequences of full contact training is not to teach the fighter bio-mechanical skills, but to force him to learn to change his personality. As he repeatedly engages with opposing fighters, a man with psychological flaws will be forced to confront those flaws in his fighting.

In my case, I have been forced to learn to be resilient, to put aside delusional thinking regarding my own ability, to set short term improvement goals, to learn to put aside my bruised ego and keep trying.

It's clear that you are a good dad. The saddest thing about this generation is how many men could be good dad's but they are torn down by an insane society before they get a chance.

Blogger Jamie-R August 21, 2013 8:27 AM  

Ah Euro kids.... hairy chests at 10 and drink wine for tea. I didn't even know what pubes was and these kids were living in a jungle already. No wonder I couldn't win the 100 metre sprint at sports day.

Anonymous Anonymous August 21, 2013 8:34 AM  

"I haven't really sparred with him yet or trained him anywhere nearly as much as I should have. But somehow, I think he's going to be just fine."

May I simply collapse into a sobbing heap in this thread, bedazzled by all this talk of fathers? May I also say I fear girls accidentally breaking the intertoobz, like they tend to break everything else?

Also, the world needs to see the true value of fathers. When Western civilization casts them away, hell descends over the land very fast. Why have we forgotten that?? Rhetorical question.

My ability to soccer consists of standing on the sidelines and sinking to the ground in a faint at the bone crunching sound of a knee injury, begging for my smelling salts.

It's all good, God is with you.

Blogger Nate August 21, 2013 8:41 AM  

"What is the best martial art for self defense, and one that actually trains you to fight in real life situations?"

how old is your kid? my advice would be to find a good local MMA gym.

Forget focusing on one technique. The object is to learn to defend himself in a real fight.

Anonymous Beau August 21, 2013 8:45 AM  

It wouldn't be surprising if during the course of the year Ender's teammates start mimicking his mannerisms and preferences now that he's seen as one who can take down the alpha. I doubt they'll be foolish enough to fight him anymore.

Blogger James Dixon August 21, 2013 8:51 AM  

> ...the vast majority of real fights go to ground at some point...

All too true. And when someone is trained to close and take you down, it tends to get there faster.

> What is the best martial art for self defense...

Others will undoubtedly disagree, but for pure defense I'd probably argue for Aikido.

Anonymous Anonymous August 21, 2013 8:53 AM  

"I'm not entirely sure he has put two and two together yet. I'll explain it to him one of these days."

Sheesh.
Copy of The Lion King?
Is there some "kids" story/movie about social structure of wolves or something?
Maybe Second Hand Lions (nudge), or even Idiocracy?

Anonymous Idle Spectator August 21, 2013 8:55 AM  

I've used martial arts as well, but I prefer mind games.


Believe me, you don't want Idle in your head.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 August 21, 2013 8:55 AM  

Wrestlers are the devil. the vast majority of real fights go to ground at some point... and once you're there... against a wrestler you're doomed.

Agreed. I wrestled in middle school and high school as one weight class down from heavyweight. I ended up in matches with wrestlers much heavier than myself (like 30 pounds) and managed to land a few wins. My coach always said that you needed to go in for the take down. I never did. Later, I learned that for heavyweights, going in for the take down was foolish at best as it required a lot of speed, skill, and luck when going against a massive heavyweight opponent. Unless you're quick enough, you'll just end up on your belly struggling to keep him from pinning you.

I never could land a pin myself against heavyweights. Most matches were drawn out and I had to win by points. The endurance required is immense in those matches.

I still remember the heavyweight coach yelling at me when I had an opponent on the ground "Baseball Bat!!!" Fortunately for him, he knew how to counter that.

Anonymous Anonymous August 21, 2013 8:55 AM  

"It wouldn't be surprising if during the course of the year Ender's teammates start mimicking his mannerisms and preferences now that he's seen as one who can take down the alpha. I doubt they'll be foolish enough to fight him anymore."

So true, Beau. Kids who come up against that kind of response might accidentally offend in the future, but they will never deliberately challenge again.

Bullies always know when they have no chance and simply look at a potential victim and say...never mind. Not this one. This one can fight back. Bullies are really wimps of course, or liberals, depending on your perspective.

Anonymous Mike M. August 21, 2013 9:01 AM  

Vox, it's probably time to spar with Ender...and make certain he understands that if he gets uppity, the old man can still pound him into the pavement.

As to best style, quality of instruction always trumps style. That being said, I'm a supporter of the traditional styles, particularly the Okinawan karate material. They teach stuff you can't use in tournaments or MMA...because those techniques inflict serious injury or death. Street moves, not sparring moves.

Anonymous Idle Spectator August 21, 2013 9:03 AM  

I always hated wrestling. It's all awkward and gay.

And soggy. Ewwwwww...

And rubbing with sweat. Uhhhhhhh.


Even when you win, you still feel like an idiot. "Why am I on this car hood?"

Anonymous VD August 21, 2013 9:03 AM  

Wrestlers are the devil. the vast majority of real fights go to ground at some point... and once you're there... against a wrestler you're doomed.

Yep. But the key word is "single-discipline". I respect wrestlers, but I don't fear them and their tendency to focus single-mindedly on getting one to ground can be used to your advantage. You can repeatedly bait them by giving them what they see as a target, then hammering them when they go for it. As it happens, I never lost to a single-discipline wrestler. My sensei wrestled in high school, but one could hardly call him a wrestler, given his various black belts.

With respect, I don't think it's just about technique and physical training. Since I've started fighting, it's been pointed out to me, and I've seen for myself that the personality of the fighter comes through in the fight. I've seen young men in near-perfect physical condition get trounced because their broken, passive aggressive personality defeats them in the fight. I've had men half my size throw me about and trip me up because they show the same centred courage and engaging aggression that they do when I speak with them off the mat.

No question, but in a fighting school, that sort of personality doesn't last long. Our sensei used to nickname everyone based on their fighting personality. Hardcore, Terminator, and so forth.

Anonymous bob k. mando August 21, 2013 9:05 AM  

Sigyn August 21, 2013 7:18 AM
Your concern is...his technique.
Men!



his concern should be that Ender should more effectively kiss ass?

perhaps you'd like to enlighten us poor benighted buffoons as to what the 'proper' response should be?

Anonymous Salt August 21, 2013 9:07 AM  

Back in HS, the one time a guy wanted to get into it, we went to ground immediately. I went straight for the throat, squeezing, and cut off his air. It ended real fast. Never had a problem with him again.

I've never understood it, not really. I've never had to fight. Plenty of opportunities, but they never materialized. I would not throw a first punch. Got threats, etc, but never did a possible opponent ever throw that first punch. I could care less about taunts. I've been in bad parts of town, often taking night photo shots, and never had a problem.

When I was a teenager my folks sent me to a summer camp; scuba diving, had a darkroom, even a martial arts teacher, and various other activities. The director later told me that when he first saw me he said to himself, "There's trouble!"

I was invited back the next year as a CIT. I taught photography.

Anonymous VD August 21, 2013 9:09 AM  

I doubt they'll be foolish enough to fight him anymore.

I concur. He later mentioned that the kid who started it has been particularly friendly ever since.

Part of the problem was that his total lack of interest in the group hierarchy makes it hard for them to place him when he joined the team. So he got tested by the omega first, then the low deltas, then the beta, and finally the alpha. He whipped them all without any trouble, and knowing him, probably without showing any sign of emotion.

Anonymous VD August 21, 2013 9:14 AM  

Vox, it's probably time to spar with Ender...and make certain he understands that if he gets uppity, the old man can still pound him into the pavement.

No need for that. First, that's not really his style. Second, one advantage of belonging to the same soccer club is that everyone knows everyone else from the kids to the veterans. He knows what sort of speed and power the old guys have left. And he knows we play a LOT dirtier.

Blogger Nate August 21, 2013 9:18 AM  

"Yep. But the key word is "single-discipline". I respect wrestlers, but I don't fear them and their tendency to focus single-mindedly on getting one to ground can be used to your advantage"

Agreed. But the days of the single disciplined fighter are ending. The question of which discipline is best has been answered... and the answer is... "all of them combined."

MMA gyms are appearing all over america. Its a great thing. Take some time to research your local gym and take advantage of it. Sure... lots of them are just a total joke... but odds are there is a good one close enough.

Blogger Cool Hand August 21, 2013 9:22 AM  

his total lack of interest in the group hierarchy

Sigma

Anonymous ridip August 21, 2013 9:26 AM  

I find myself debating if it's worth going back to a dojo as I age. Haven't been in one in years and I'm rolling up on 50.

I've been told by much more practiced fighters that there's something about myself and my father that just scares the hell out of people and they know not to mess with us. But I find myself wondering if the skills are still there, I know the fifth gear is long gone and haven't had to fight in a few years.

Does it make sense to go back as you age and seek out some additional full contact training? If so, what works well when you've always been more endurance than speed?

Blogger Nate August 21, 2013 9:29 AM  

"Does it make sense to go back as you age and seek out some additional full contact training? If so, what works well when you've always been more endurance than speed?"

You're in trouble. Endurance is what we lose with age. Quick twitch bursts you keep much longer.

I still have the dexterity to do all the amazing rudimentary fireworks that I could do when I was younger and I was drumming all day every day. But I can't sting it all together over and over and over like I could back then.

Anonymous Outlaw X August 21, 2013 9:31 AM  

Yep. But the key word is "single-discipline". I respect wrestlers

Excellent point Vox, I never took wrestling but two different martial arts and my dad boxed in the golden gloves. And got that training from him until High school. He liked it because he could clean my clock if he liked. He never did of course. He sent me to martial arts for discipline as he said to me. Never fought a wrestler live you have but have had for fun one jump me from the back and didn't defend myself because we were friends even though I flipped him he came back and pinned me. We were both just having fun. But you are right a multi disciplined fighter can win only if he is willing to really hurt someone and the situation requires it. For those of you who are handicapped even in walkers I highly recommend Krav Maga.

Anonymous Stg58/Animal Mother August 21, 2013 9:32 AM  

Logan,

If you want a good Wing Chun school that actually teaches you win in the street, get in touch with Alex Wallenwein in Houston, TX. He runs Houston's Backyard Wing Chun. He could tell you a practically focused WT school in your area. If you are near Houston, even better. He has partnered with a BJJ school, so if you take WT from him, you also get the ground fighting. Alex doesn't train for show. He trains you to annihilate the opponent as fast as possible. He is a German guy in his fifties, lethality in human form. He also started the first Ron Paul meetup group in the country in 2007.

Anonymous VD August 21, 2013 9:33 AM  

Sigma

Too soon to tell. There is that little issue of the opposite sex to factor in as well. But the potential is there, yes.

Anonymous Idle Spectator August 21, 2013 9:41 AM  

It's no surprise wrestling is what turned into the WWF and Hulk Hogan wearing glitter spandex.


Judo is far more elegant, with kata forms from Jigoro Kano. It's like momentum vector manipulation, with P = mv. Add v + u, subtract v - u, dot product v * u, cross product v X u, inner product , and exterior product v /\ u. Where v = P1 and u = P2.


Clowns do wrestling, Putin does Judo.

Blogger Nate August 21, 2013 9:49 AM  

"Clowns do wrestling, Putin does Judo."

And we watch wrestlers choke out or ground pound the judo boys ever saturday night in the UFC.

Your theory has unfortunately been rendered irrelevant by hundereds of lead blanket wins.

Anonymous Josh August 21, 2013 9:51 AM  

Who's the last non wrestler ufc champ?

Blogger Nate August 21, 2013 9:56 AM  

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xlxqi_ufc-60-matt-hughes-vs-royce-gracie_sport

Judo legend meets wrestler.

Anonymous Idle Spectator August 21, 2013 9:59 AM  

And we watch wrestlers choke out or ground pound the judo boys ever saturday night in the UFC.

Who's the last non wrestler ufc champ?

Judo legend meets wrestler.

Because, you know, real life is totally octagon-shaped with proper backlighting. All right, Mr. DeMille, I'm ready for my close-up.


Your theory has unfortunately been rendered irrelevant by hundereds of lead blanket wins.

Your theory has unfortunately been rendered irrelevant by geometry.

Blogger Markku August 21, 2013 10:00 AM  

his concern should be that Ender should more effectively kiss ass?

perhaps you'd like to enlighten us poor benighted buffoons as to what the 'proper' response should be?


I don't think it was said quite in the spirit you took it.

Anonymous FUBAR Nation Ben August 21, 2013 10:01 AM  

Nate, it's for me. I want to be able to defend myself.

Anonymous VD August 21, 2013 10:02 AM  

Judo legend meets wrestler.

Ironically, the wrestler is the better boxer. Gracie was surprisingly pedestrian with his hands.

Blogger Nate August 21, 2013 10:02 AM  

"Because, you know, real life is totally octagon-shaped with proper backlighting. All right, Mr. DeMille, I'm ready for my close-up."

I find it amusing that you think the shape of the fighting area was somehow relevant. The only thing that mattered was the floor... which is where the fight happened... and where the judo legend got raped.

I realize this leaves you a butthurt fan boy. I do apologize.

Anonymous VD August 21, 2013 10:05 AM  

Because, you know, real life is totally octagon-shaped with proper backlighting. All right, Mr. DeMille, I'm ready for my close-up.

Idle, by your own admission, you don't know what you're talking about. My son does Judo. I have trained and fought with judoka and wrestlers alike. And the wrestlers are without question harder to beat and more dangerous.

As a general rule, if you've never done any martial art or been involved in much physical combat, it's important to understand that your opinions are not only ignorant, but likely ill-founded. I had a lot of misconceptions before I got into martial arts myself.

The biggest one being that women were quick. I just assumed that because smaller men are quicker than big men, women, being smaller, would be quicker too. Not so much.

Blogger Nate August 21, 2013 10:07 AM  

"Ironically, the wrestler is the better boxer. Gracie was surprisingly pedestrian with his hands."

A few years later Matt fought Royce Gracie. Royce tried to fight the whole fight standing. Which I believe tells you everything you need to know about elite jits vs elite wrestling.

Matt chopped him down with leg kicks and knocked him out. with a leg kick upper cut combo.

Anonymous Outlaw X August 21, 2013 10:08 AM  

And we watch wrestlers choke out or ground pound the judo boys ever saturday night in the UFC.

I could have killed my friend. When the rules had not been made and the commitment is made the wrestler has not a chance against a multi disciplined fighter. The human body has many weak points, and I don't care how big or strong you are.

Blogger Nate August 21, 2013 10:10 AM  

"The biggest one being that women were quick. I just assumed that because smaller men are quicker than big men, women, being smaller, would be quicker too. Not so much."

And do you remember that dreadful moment when you realized that "smaller men are quicker than big men" also is merely a general rule that has some really horrible exceptions?

Blogger Nate August 21, 2013 10:13 AM  

"I could have killed my friend. When the rules had not been made and the commitment is made the wrestler has not a chance against a multi disciplined fighter."

I agree Outlaw. I'm not arguing in favor of any single discipline. I am an MMA guy to the core. But... in a battle of single disciplines... the wrestler beats the judo boy.

Anonymous Mitchell August 21, 2013 10:16 AM  

Golly! Ender sure does get in a lot of fights for a nice kid who minds his own business and never starts anything. I sure hope he meets another kid who knows martial arts (who never starts anything either) and gets a taste of his own medicine. I wonder how humorous Daddy will find it when Ender loses a fight.

Blogger Markku August 21, 2013 10:26 AM  

I wonder how humorous Daddy will find it when Ender loses a fight.

It won't be the time for humor, but time to start coaching.

Blogger VD August 21, 2013 10:34 AM  

And do you remember that dreadful moment when you realized that "smaller men are quicker than big men" also is merely a general rule that has some really horrible exceptions?

That never happened to me. But then, I never ran into Usain Bolt. There aren't a lot of D1-speed fighters in martial arts circles. The problem I had was the ability of the very experienced guys to successfully anticipate me. As I've mentioned before, my sensei said he'd never seen anyone as fast as me. When I asked how that was possible considering how he was kicking my ass every single time we sparred, he laughed and said: "because I know what you're going to do before you do it."

Ender sure does get in a lot of fights for a nice kid who minds his own business and never starts anything.

You obviously don't know the first thing about European schoolboys. Four or five fights in almost three years is nothing. Ender gets in fewer fights than almost any kid on the team, except his friend, the goalie, who is a gentle giant. It's different than the vibrants ganging up to beat the hell out one kid on the bus, the fights aren't particularly serious and I've yet to see anyone get more than bumps and bruises.

I sure hope he meets another kid who knows martial arts (who never starts anything either) and gets a taste of his own medicine.

You certainly are a nasty little creature. But that wouldn't be a problem, because then obviously neither one of them will start anything. As a general rule, martial artists recognize each other and refrain from fighting out of both respect and self-preservation. They both know what the other is capable of doing.

Anonymous Josh August 21, 2013 10:35 AM  

Ender sure does get in a lot of fights for a nice kid who minds his own business and never starts anything.

Do you know anything about social dynamics with boys, especially pre-teen/early teens? Especially in group activities? Someone is always getting picked, usually one of the outsiders, by a boy looking to move up in the social hierarchy.

Anonymous VD August 21, 2013 10:36 AM  

It won't be the time for humor, but time to start coaching.

Precisely. Mitchell is obviously a limp-wristed delta or gamma who has never been in a fight, because if he had, he'd know losing one is nothing to fear. I've gotten my ass kicked something like 200 times or more, which is why threats to do so just make me laugh.

Blogger Nate August 21, 2013 10:39 AM  

I had never met anyone faster than me either. Then I ran into this guy who... in a tight space... could make small moves incredibly fast. I mean he couldn't run with me. but in quick verses speed... this behemoth was crazy. This was the only dude I ever met that could consistent beat me in the handslap contest including some guys that played in the NFL... and this cat was 6'5 and somewhere north of 400 pounds.

Anonymous Outlaw X August 21, 2013 10:39 AM  

I wonder how humorous Daddy will find it when Ender loses a fight.

We all lose fights, no one is superman. But cowering in your own entrails is not what my daddy taught me. He taught me to defend myself, no matter the cost. At three years old he bought me blow up punching clowns if you remember them.

My dad told me never to start a fight but to finish it and if you lose at least you will gain the respect of those fighting you. He said never run away at six years old on he drove that into my brain.

There is nothing lost in losing a fight as he said. The only losers are the cowards. This may seem harsh but it has worked well throughout my life.

None of his boys but one backed down in a fight. He said he was preparing us for the real world. And it translated from Grade school to all my life.

Blogger Nate August 21, 2013 10:41 AM  

that was when I decided that life wasn't fair and super heros really do exist and you better pray you don't piss one off.

Anonymous Idle Spectator August 21, 2013 10:41 AM  

I find it amusing that you think the shape of the fighting area was somehow relevant. The only thing that mattered was the floor... which is where the fight happened... and where the judo legend got raped.

Well, let's see. If I am in an octagon with padding, there is a limited amount of space. Which makes it more likely that I would be even be close enough in the first place to do any wrestling / judo. Perhaps if I am in a capsule hotel in Tokyo.

Now, is that remotely like the real world? Did I clear that up nicely?

I realize this leaves you a butthurt fan boy. I do apologize.

I do realize this leaves you amazed the ground has no actual padding. I do apologize.


Idle, by your own admission, you don't know what you're talking about. My son does Judo. I have trained and fought with judoka and wrestlers alike. And the wrestlers are without question harder to beat and more dangerous.

A sample size of n = 2. Well, I guess that settles that...

And since when did ever mention anything about "harder to beat" or "danger." There goes that admission ticket... OH SO close... tantalizing getting one over on Idle... You were excited?


Go back and read what I wrote again.


As a general rule, if you've never done any martial art or been involved in much physical combat, it's important to understand that your opinions are not only ignorant, but likely ill-founded. I had a lot of misconceptions before I got into martial arts myself.

Thanks for sharing.


The biggest one being that women were quick. I just assumed that because smaller men are quicker than big men, women, being smaller, would be quicker too. Not so much.

And?

Blogger Nate August 21, 2013 10:46 AM  

" I've gotten my ass kicked something like 200 times or more, which is why threats to do so just make me laugh."

haven't we all.

Anonymous RedJack August 21, 2013 10:48 AM  

Growing up in a rural area, we fought a lot. My worst fight was with my best friend. We know each other so well, both could predict what the other would do.

Fighting, in a way, is very good. You realize you aren't going to win them all, and you also find that starting a fight with a farm kid who throws hogs every day isn't a good idea.

I do wish I had some more formal traning though. Now with my shoulder injury, I am hesitant to start it.

Blogger Nate August 21, 2013 10:50 AM  

"Now, is that remotely like the real world? Did I clear that up nicely?"

I suspect at this point you're just opting for bravado because you're to prideful to admit you're simply wrong.

The padding of the ground really is irrelevant and you know it. The cage's existence actually benefited Gracie as he used it to keep himself from being taken down. Ironic that the judo legend wanted to avoid being on his back against the wrestler isn't it?

Or do you even know enough about this to understand the irony?

in a large space without bounderies the wrestler is MORE likely to take you down.. not less.

And the hard earth? That just means you're more likely to black out when your head bounces off it after he gets that double leg.

Blogger Nate August 21, 2013 10:53 AM  

" You realize you aren't going to win them all, and you also find that starting a fight with a farm kid who throws hogs every day isn't a good idea."

You learn that even if you win... you still may end up with a dislocated shoulder and a couple broken ribs.

Blogger James Dixon August 21, 2013 10:55 AM  

> And do you remember that dreadful moment when you realized that "smaller men are quicker than big men" also is merely a general rule that has some really horrible exceptions?

I learned that as a teenager. There are some really big men who are quite a bit faster than me, even when I was younger and fairly fast.

> I wonder how humorous Daddy will find it when Ender loses a fight.

Everyone loses. There's always someone better than you are. But those people usually don't start trouble.

> Four or five fights in almost three years is nothing.

I tended to get into about 3-4/year myself. But then I had a temper (still do, but it hasn't triggered in years now).

Anonymous Mike M. August 21, 2013 11:05 AM  

Vox brings up a good point. Serious martial artists are a lot more likely to swap stories than punches or kicks. Less chance of grievious injuries that way.

Because EVERYBODY can be beaten.

Blogger JaimeInTexas August 21, 2013 11:05 AM  

Stg58/Animal Mother:

Houston is not a small place. It can take almost an hour just to cross Houston south to north, doing 60MPH.

I am in the Clear Lake area.

Anonymous Carlotta August 21, 2013 11:09 AM  

To the commenter regarding girls..
Being a good looking girls is just as bad, if not worse. Go into it assuming everyone needs self defense.

My Father trained me to fight different opponents differently. Against boys it is self preservation. He was clear I was to get away as the goal. Doing whatever was necessary.

Against girls it is to call their bluff, as it is mostly social. Then shock and awe if they are not bluffing. Once we got older the girls cut your face, tactics changed and that is why I homeschool.

Each time I was engaged I didnt back down. In fact I went into a fighting stance. This eliminates about 75 percent of the fights. Most people are just checking if you are willing to fight. Teach them how.

As for Ender, it sounds like he is progressing nicely.
In our neighborhood you never broke up the fights unless weapons were involved. It was understood the boys needed to fight it out. It was also understood they would beat the crap out of each other on the field.


Dads used to know this and prepare their sons. I am glad we are not the only ones who still do.

Anonymous Carlotta August 21, 2013 11:17 AM  

Funny story for the martial artists.
My Dad had to train a rookie cop. First day they had to take down a 300 pounder who wanted to fight. My Dad told the rookie to stay back and call for back up. The rookie was about 150 pounds and about 5 foot 6 inches. Instead, he ran at the guy and kicked him in the face knocking him out. My Dad and him were brothers after that and his friend helped teach us. Whenever he came over we would beg him to do his kicks. Fun guy.

It is true that martial artist can recognize each other. There must be a secret hand signal :)

Anonymous Carlotta August 21, 2013 11:23 AM  

@ Redjack

On Amish Mafia one guy is an underground MMA fighter who says he loves fighting because Amish men are so much stronger pound for pound because of farm work.

Son, you are mucking stalls to train you for fighting.

Anonymous patrick kelly August 21, 2013 11:27 AM  

@IS:" If I am in an octagon with padding, there is a limited amount of space. Which makes it more likely that I would be even be close enough in the first place to do any wrestling / judo. Perhaps if I am in a capsule hotel in Tokyo."

Ok, you're just trolling now, right?

Many "street fights" are not literally out on the open street, but in spaces likely smaller and more cramped than that octagon, like smokey dark dives, hallways, etc.. which would likely lend themselves even more to grappling. And if a wrestler takes you down on a hard floor instead of a softer one, better for him, not so good for you........

It's easy for you to claim some hypothetical, "real world" scenario as evidence for your disdain of skilled wrestlers, but until you give verifiable examples, videos of these competitions and their results stand making the more persuasive argument.

Most successful competitive wrestlers have a background in years of disciplined, intensive, grueling training and work-outs that the ignorant and inexperienced just cannot fathom. The mindset, the endurance, the spirit necessary to consistently achieve victory at upper levels of competition is as near to super-heroics as anything you could imagine in the "real world".

And when someone with this background applies it to other techniques and skills, such as boxing or karate, the results are observably and measurably superior to those who have not built upon such experience and background.

I'm sure there are exceptions, but from where I'm looking the rule has barely been bent, definitely not broken.

Anonymous VD August 21, 2013 11:37 AM  

It is true that martial artist can recognize each other. There must be a secret hand signal :)

About eight years ago, I had an old Italian man stop me in the street and ask if I studied martial arts. It turned out he was a judo master. It's something similar to the way military men can often recognize each other; it's part posture, part how they carry themselves, and part being in better physical condition than the average man their age.

With martial artists in particular, there is a way they instinctively size everyone up when they look at them. It's different than the way ex-cops do it; cops always look at everyone with suspicion. With the martial artist, it's more "okay, how would I go about beating this guy."

And, of course, when you're both doing it, one of you is likely to pick up on it.

Anonymous Stickwick August 21, 2013 11:41 AM  

You obviously don't know the first thing about European schoolboys. Four or five fights in almost three years is nothing.

I'm guessing the rest of Europe is like Finland in that authorities don't take the fights seriously. My husband got in countless street fights from childhood to his 20s, and unless the police happened to see what was happening, it ended there. Of the fights in which the authorities were involved, the judge either dismissed the whole thing or just imposed a fine on whomever he decided was the instigator. For this reason, when hubby moved to the U.S., I had a hard time convincing him that settling things "the old fashioned way" in America will most likely either get you sued or jail time. It was embarrassing explaining to him how feminized America has become.

Anonymous MountainCaveMan August 21, 2013 11:46 AM  

Vox,

I've had some success in the business world, always got attractive women to my bed, am above average intelligence, well-dressed, fairly confident and am a loner.

However, even though I've had courage in physical confrontations, I'm scrawny and have only been in a few serious tumbles long ago. Now I'm in my mid 30s and wanting to challenge myself regarding this unpreparedness and scrawniness now that I'm starting a family.

But I feel like a complete idiot when I go into a martial arts studio surrounded by kids. Though I've taken punches when younger, I'm also worried about full contact.

Am I just being a pussy? Any tips?

Anonymous ThirdMonkey August 21, 2013 11:46 AM  

The thing I've learned from the few fights I've won and the numerous ass-whuppin's I've received is to inflict as much pain as possible in as little time as possible, and try to end the fight quickly. The only "training" I've had is fighting vibrants on the school bus as little gringo and fighting drunk vibrants as a gringo bouncer in southern New Mexico. Pain is a terribly effective teacher in that I've learned what NOT to do and that the will to win can override pain. The last couple of fights I was in I had made up in my mind that, regardless of what they might do to me, they was going to the hospital. Fortunately, they both ended quickly and without much injury. Giving off that win-at-all-costs vibe puts your enemy on notice. That, and flanking calves every spring and summer for 20+ years is good training for putting things heavier than you on the ground.

To all the formally-trained badasses, is there any validity to the effectiveness to martial arts pressure points/nerve strikes, or is it a bunch of Hollywood bs? If it is, what is the best discipline to study?

Blogger Nate August 21, 2013 11:47 AM  

stickwick married a finn.

figures.

Anonymous Sensei August 21, 2013 11:48 AM  

And do you remember that dreadful moment when you realized that "smaller men are quicker than big men" also is merely a general rule that has some really horrible exceptions?

I do remember it rather clearly.. though it was just sparring so it wasn't dreadful so much as intimidating and very instructive.

I've only trained in TKD so far (like a lot of Americans it seems). And though we practiced a lot more hand technique than most TKD schools, it still wasn't real fighting. The closest we got was among the black belts when lower ranks weren't around, or the time a kickboxer came and trained with us for a while.

Since I'm moving to Sinosphere Asia soon, I am thinking about looking around for a good school of some Chinese martial art. Not sure if I have the right body type for it, since I am built more for strength than dexterity. Then again I didn't have the 'right body type' for TKD and managed to do fine... I guess body type is overrated for choosing styles.

Blogger Nate August 21, 2013 11:51 AM  

"The thing I've learned from the few fights I've won and the numerous ass-whuppin's I've received is to inflict as much pain as possible in as little time as possible, and try to end the fight quickly."

Ahhh... the little man method of fighting. That's me. I learned young that if I got into a fight.. there was a very good chance it was to late. And thus my method of fighting changed from "start nothing, end everything" to "end everything before anyone else realizes it started".

this tends to offend the sensabilities of most conservatives who have all kinds of notions about rules for fights and and fighting honourably and all that crap.

I was more interested in not getting my ass beat than fair competition though.

Anonymous Idle Spectator August 21, 2013 11:56 AM  

I suspect at this point you're just opting for bravado because you're to prideful to admit you're simply wrong.

Well, no. Considering I quickly corrected my mistake of the spelling of the Greek word orkhis for testicle written as orkis. I was thoroughly ashamed of myself at not knowing the ball-vado properly. Naughty Idle.


The padding of the ground really is irrelevant and you know it.

Probably. Unless it is puddles of radioactive water run-off from Fukushima Daiichi. The more important point is that it is a enclosed space.


The cage's existence actually benefited Gracie as he used it to keep himself from being taken down. Ironic that the judo legend wanted to avoid being on his back against the wrestler isn't it?

Well, no. Considering on the back in Judo is more of a weakness when fighting a wrestler. I'm not sure the word "irony" applies here. I think it is more like "logic."


Or do you even know enough about this to understand the irony?

I don't think househusbands should be lecturing on things involving an iron or ironing.


in a large space without bounderies the wrestler is MORE likely to take you down.. not less.

Like at a firing range? I don't think that worked well at Gallipoli. I'm just sayin'...


And the hard earth? That just means you're more likely to black out when your head bounces off it after he gets that double leg.

Keyword: if.

Anonymous Mr. Nightstick August 21, 2013 11:56 AM  

Hate to say it, outside of wrestling I never did much fighting. An incident in the 7th grade convinced me that fighting wasn't for me. I nearly beat someone to death with my combo lock and would have finished him off if another student hadn't of stopped me. Once I cooled down I thought about the implication of what had occurred and decided that since I was more likely to end up murdering than fighting I better avoid it outside of the wrestling mat.

Blogger James Dixon August 21, 2013 12:00 PM  

> this tends to offend the sensabilities of most conservatives who have all kinds of notions about rules for fights and and fighting honourably and all that crap.

There is no such thing as a "fair" fight. The only rule is to win.

Sparring, training, competitions? Those have rules. Fights have none. When one side resorts to physical violence the rules have gone out the window.

Anonymous Noah B. August 21, 2013 12:01 PM  

That kind of fighting is perfectly healthy for boys, as long as they're not mixing with the wrong types who are out to do serious harm in a fight, using weapons, continuing to hit someone who's down, etc.

Blogger Nate August 21, 2013 12:02 PM  

"Well, no. Considering on the back in Judo is more of a weakness when fighting a wrestler. I'm not sure the word "irony" applies here. I think it is more like "logic."

You know less about this than we previously imagined.

Anonymous Stickwick August 21, 2013 12:10 PM  

stickwick married a finn.

figures.


A Swedish-Finn, even. Try having a Swedish last name and being from a well-known White family over there -- you'll get in lots of fights just for that. That's another thing few Americans who aren't from the South understand -- all the weird grievances and vendettas that go way, way back in Europe, and the kids will fight over them.

Blogger Revelation Means Hope August 21, 2013 12:10 PM  

Vox, thanks for pointing out the age Ender started more formal training.

I know a bunch of people who enroll their child in martial arts around age 5, and the kids turn into little bullies yet without actually knowing any effective fighting techniques.

I'll work on getting my son tough physically, keep him in gymnastics class where he can improve balance and body knowledge and agility and strength, and then around 10 or 11 get him enrolled in martial arts.

Anonymous Idle Spectator August 21, 2013 12:10 PM  

You know less about this than we previously imagined.

You'd want to avoid that, hence it's not really irony, as in the opposite of what you are expecting. I'd use "contraindicated" instead.

I'm sure you can... follow that logic, right?

Anonymous Sigyn August 21, 2013 12:15 PM  

Markku understood me. At least SOMEONE here understands me.

I don't think househusbands should be lecturing on things involving an iron or ironing.

Looks like all this talk of fighting has made Idle hungry.

Blogger Markku August 21, 2013 12:16 PM  

Yes, Finlandssvensk are the second most hated minority here, just after Russians.

Blogger Nate August 21, 2013 12:19 PM  

"I'm sure you can... follow that logic, right?"

What I follow is that numerous people have explained the error of your comments and you have responded with nothing but snark.

Vox posted on this just yesterday.

Anonymous Porky August 21, 2013 12:20 PM  

To be fair, wasn't Gracie like 40 and about 10 years past his prime when Hughes destroyed him? I think he retired right after that fight.

When Gracie was in his prime and fought a skilled wrestler (like Ken Shamrock or Dan Severn) he usually won.

Anonymous RedJack August 21, 2013 12:21 PM  

Carlotta and Nate
I was a farm kid. Didn't play foot ball much (Dad's health situation was such I had to run the farm), but learned to knock down 80 lbs boars and castrate them. When your "go to" move is that, it messes with people.

Still lost fights, but the did change the dynamic

Blogger Nate August 21, 2013 12:27 PM  

"To be fair, wasn't Gracie like 40 and about 10 years past his prime when Hughes destroyed him? I think he retired right after that fight."

Matt smashed his way through all the gracies and their prodegies... many of them in their prime.

Blogger Res Ipsa August 21, 2013 12:29 PM  

"I've gotten my ass kicked something like 200 times or more,"

I don't know about you, but the fights I remember best are the ones I lost.

Blogger Nate August 21, 2013 12:34 PM  

Also... Gracie sub'd severn. Shamrock put Gracie on his back and held him there for 36 minutes... in the most boring fight ever broadcast. UFC 5... ugh...

Anonymous VD August 21, 2013 12:39 PM  

I feel like a complete idiot when I go into a martial arts studio surrounded by kids. Though I've taken punches when younger, I'm also worried about full contact. Am I just being a pussy? Any tips?

Yes. And you're in the wrong martial arts studios. Look for an MMA gym. There won't be any kids there. The only way to deal with your fear is to face it. Get hit. Get knocked down. Then get up. The test of a man is not his ability to beat down another man, it is his ability to get up, knowing that he's about to get knocked down again.

If you perceive that I'm simply not afraid of being called names or getting my ass kicked, it's because I'm not. At least, not anymore. I was afraid too, in the beginning. The first time, going up against Hardcore after having seen him break the ankle of a Tae Kwan Do black belt, was damn near terrifying. He was the most vicious fighter in the dojo and everyone knew he kind of liked hurting people even if he kept it under control. I knew he wouldn't take it easy on me. He didn't. He thoroughly kicked my ass, knocked me down four times, and it hurt. A lot. Try taking a full-force punch to the face from a 205-pound fighter who knows what he's doing. It sucks.

And then try finding yourself flat on your back, in pain, knowing that there is nothing to prevent you from staying there, from quitting, from pretending that you're hurt. No one will say anything; no one will criticize you. But you'll know... and so will the guys who have been in that position. That's the test. Do you get up, knowing that you're going to be right back there in another 10, or 15, or 30 seconds, or do you stay down?

I got up. And I got up again. And I got up again. After the two minutes was up, Hardcore gave a little nod of approval. Because he knew, and he knew I had learned, that I was the sort of man who would get up and keep coming at him even though I knew what would come of it. That's something you can never know about yourself until the moment of truth arrives.

And then, once you know it, it is something that no one can ever take away from you. I'd much rather have the approval of men like Hardcore, Terminator, and my old sensei, men who are janitors and real estate agents, and general nobodies, than the favor of a million Scalzis, Goulds, and Kowals.

Anonymous Stickwick August 21, 2013 12:41 PM  

Shamrock put Gracie on his back and held him there for 36 minutes... in the most boring fight ever broadcast. UFC 5... ugh...

Heh, that was a memorable fight. Didn't the UFC change some rules after that to prevent it from happening again?

Anonymous Outlaw X August 21, 2013 12:49 PM  

in the most boring fight ever broadcast. UFC 5... ugh...

My older brother has watched the UFC and we were talking on my birthday. He said what a waste of energy. I never watched it and asked about it and he said these are people who have no meaning they are a waste of energy and my time. He said he watched it and was disgusted by the whole affair. I have no opinion as I have never watched them. I watch the Rangers and the Cowboys which I guess is not much better.

My brother can't stand fighting I think.

Anonymous Porky August 21, 2013 12:52 PM  

Shamrock put Gracie on his back and held him there for 36 minutes.

Gracie also choked Shamrock out in less than a minute in UFC1.



Anonymous Porky August 21, 2013 12:58 PM  

in the most boring fight ever broadcast.

I'm thinking Guida v. Maynard.

Anonymous Idle Spectator August 21, 2013 1:05 PM  

Ok, you're just trolling now, right?

I warned you, you don't want Idle in your head.

You think Vox is the only one who can throw red meat out? Noticed how fast he pounced on it. Heh heh heh heh...


"I finally got him! He keeps bitching about A - Z like pharmacology and math riemanniuhhhtangent on my blog."


Many "street fights" are not literally out on the open street, but in spaces likely smaller and more cramped than that octagon, like smokey dark dives, hallways, etc.. which would likely lend themselves even more to grappling. And if a wrestler takes you down on a hard floor instead of a softer one, better for him, not so good for you........

Why do people keep posting the obvious? This is starting to remind me of the Disneyland thread again.

Yes, and small spaces would lend even more to stabbing. And if I get shot or stabbed, not so good for me either.


It's easy for you to claim some hypothetical, "real world" scenario as evidence for your disdain of skilled wrestlers, but until you give verifiable examples, videos of these competitions and their results stand making the more persuasive argument.

After you just posted a real world hypothetical above about a wrestler? Oh dear. I disdain wrestlers for wrestling like they do.


Most successful competitive wrestlers have a background in years of disciplined, intensive, grueling training and work-outs that the ignorant and inexperienced just cannot fathom. The mindset, the endurance, the spirit necessary to consistently achieve victory at upper levels of competition is as near to super-heroics as anything you could imagine in the "real world".

Super-heroics? Woah. Some melodrama here. I know they are well-trained athletes. I know they train vigorously. And I still hate them; because they are ass clowns; because they lumber around on the ground with another man like an elephant dying in a expansive pink bayou of feminine bathroom products.

And I know professional wrestlers are athletes too; it takes careful training to do those stunts without injuring anything. Slip-ups can be devastating. Even the really stupid ones involving the Undertaker and the giant cage. And I still hate them. I know Hulk Hogan has skill, but still, fuck him. And his spandex on TV.


And when someone with this background applies it to other techniques and skills, such as boxing or karate, the results are observably and measurably superior to those who have not built upon such experience and background.

Well, yeah. If I train extensively in one and jump over it is far more effective than starting off from ground zero.

Anonymous Outlaw X August 21, 2013 1:06 PM  

Has anyone ever noticed that the guy who could break anyone's neck in two seconds is the guy who hates fighting? The guy who turned wrenches and hauled hay all his life is the most gentle man you would ever meet?

And the best friend you could ever have?

Blogger Nate August 21, 2013 1:23 PM  

"Has anyone ever noticed that the guy who could break anyone's neck in two seconds is the guy who hates fighting? The guy who turned wrenches and hauled hay all his life is the most gentle man you would ever meet?"

the fear of killing another human is a serious mitigating factor. I know when I carry I behave totally differently than when I don't. Not because I am scared of getting hurt... but because I know that when I am carrying getting into trouble means I may have to kill someone.

When you're that strong... getting into a fight also means you may kill someone... regardless if you intend to or not.

Blogger Nate August 21, 2013 1:24 PM  

i am reminded of the video where the big black dude punches the cop in the face and then politely apologizes to her.

He had no idea that he had actually just killed the cop.

Anonymous Noah B. August 21, 2013 1:31 PM  

"Has anyone ever noticed that the guy who could break anyone's neck in two seconds is the guy who hates fighting? The guy who turned wrenches and hauled hay all his life is the most gentle man you would ever meet?"

I know a guy just like that -- truly a gentle giant who could probably crush most people's skulls with one hand. Cries when his wife shoots squirrels.

Anonymous Anonymous August 21, 2013 1:32 PM  

I've never understood it, not really. I've never had to fight.

Same here. Growing up on a farm (seems to be a theme, doesn't it?) I was much stronger than other boys, and I was shy and introverted enough to have a "strong, silent type" thing going on, so most kids just assumed I could beat them. The few times someone tried to hit me, I was able to wrap him up in a headlock or pin him quickly, since none of them knew what they were doing. In retrospect, I would've been better off if I'd been in more fights and gotten knocked down, or at least been on a wrestling team.

I'm not sure if my small town has an MMA club; I'll have to check. I'm pretty old and soft now, but on the plus-side I'm too old to be embarrassed about looking silly.

Anonymous (not)GBFM August 21, 2013 1:34 PM  

Why is he fighting so much? Is he small? Like is father?

Mwaaahahahaha jaaaa lzzzozzz lollz

Zzzz


Zzlolllllz

Anonymous Idle Spectator August 21, 2013 1:36 PM  

Looks like all this talk of fighting has made Idle hungry.

They're all ganging up on me because I called wrestlers ass clowns and said Judo was more elegant. I am just misunderstood. I need another hug.


Yes, Finlandssvensk are the second most hated minority here, just after Russians.

It's not your fault. It's not your fault. It's not your fault.


What I follow is that numerous people

You mean three? I guess that's a number.


have explained the error of your comments

Wrongly accused, I am, I am.


and you have responded with nothing but snark.

C above 4 Re: Snark.


Vox posted on this just yesterday.

You mean this Aristotelian-Adjoined Anecdote:

It's worth noting that sophists who favor ambiguity-based refutations are extremely vulnerable to having their tactics used against them. By intentionally utilizing a word that has multiple definitions, including some that are less than helpful to your case, you can be certain that the sophist will latch onto the definition they perceive to be damaging to your argument and thereby leap eagerly into the trap. He will do so because his objective in an argument is usually focused on disqualifying his opponent in the eyes of the crowd rather than in genuinely refuting his opponent's argument.

I'm not sure it's working on me. Plan B?

Anonymous Josh August 21, 2013 1:48 PM  

Okay idle, so you're more interested with what looks pretty and elegant than with what works...

Maybe you should stick to watching rhythmic gymnastics or fashion shows...

Anonymous patrick kelly August 21, 2013 1:55 PM  

I will not feed the troll.....I will not feed the troll.....I will not feed the troll.....I will not feed the troll.....I will not feed the troll.....I will not feed the troll.....I will not feed the troll.....I will not feed the troll.....grrrrrr......

I will not feed the troll.....

Anonymous Idle Spectator August 21, 2013 1:58 PM  

Okay idle, so you're more interested with what looks pretty and elegant than with what works...

I'm sure rape works too, but we need to have some standards here, rapist. I could win every fight by detonating an A-Bomb, but we need to have some more criteria here besides "what works."


Maybe you should stick to watching rhythmic gymnastics or fashion shows...

Are they naked?


I will not feed the troll.....

FEED ME. FEED ME. FEED ME. Really when you think about it, I am owning you, not really trolling.

Anonymous Credo in Unum Deum August 21, 2013 1:59 PM  

You'd be surprised at the benefits of a good pair of running shoes, and regular running. I'm not joking. Running away, especially if you randomly zig-zag, you'll get away from threats. Dealing with the legal headaches of a real fight is not something I want to go through.

Before a buying a Glock, a Sig, or an AR-15, or going to any martial arts class I'd invest in a pair of decent running shoes, and then wear 'em out. Sprints, long distance, up hill, down hill, through mud, in the rain, in the sun, in the snow, just get good at running.

99% of self defense is simple: "Be where the bad guy is not." Don't go walking down a dark alley in the bad part of town at 3:30 in the morning, and you'll be surprised at the results.

That 1% though, that's when things get bad. And one should always keep a healthy distance from strangers, arms-length or greater is a good rule of thumb, keep an eye on their hands, hands can use knives or guns, so keep them in sight.

I would also recommend everyone on here, when going for a walk with their child who is 14-17 years old or so, to have them look around and have them tell you the items around them that could be used as a weapon if they had to defend themselves right now. Could a traffic cone be used as club? Could a pile of wood be used to stab someone in the neck? What about your keys in your pocket right now? Jam it into a bad guy's neck (or chest) repeatedly. The only fair fight is the one you lose.

The same applies in the classroom. We need to teach children (And their teachers!!!) to "THROW STUFF" if an active shooter shows up. Try shooting at the range with your gun, and have several dozen iPads, textbooks, tables, and everything else not nailed down thrown at you, and see how many hits you get.

For the younger children, say 14 and under, ask them where they'd run to if they had to get away while out on a walk.

Anonymous Idle Spectator August 21, 2013 2:30 PM  

And now, let me finally unveil the Great Plan of Idlelotry I had in store for this blog post.


When I saw "A Father's Concern" at the top I was definitely concerned and knew I needed to act fast. What was the very first thing I posted here in the comments?

I've used martial arts as well, but I prefer mind games.

Believe me, you don't want Idle in your head.




I'm like Babe Ruth, who points at the fence ahead of time and then hits the home run anyway.

Now, the healing may begin.

Anonymous daddynichol August 21, 2013 2:49 PM  

Vox: " I've gotten my ass kicked something like 200 times or more, which is why threats to do so just make me laugh."

In my 61 years, I've been in plenty of fights; Won some, lost some. I promised them that even if they won, I wouldn't be the only one bleeding and bruised. Even when I came out on the short end of the stick, I often gained the opponents respect.

Blogger Dox Day Teddy Spagetthhi August 21, 2013 2:51 PM  

Awesome! Carry on Ender!

Anonymous Daniel August 21, 2013 3:07 PM  

For this reason, when hubby moved to the U.S., I had a hard time convincing him that settling things "the old fashioned way" in America will most likely either get you sued or jail time. It was embarrassing explaining to him how feminized America has become.

I must live in the old part of America. My 15-year old has been in four decent fights that I know of in the last two years, and no one gives a damn. He got blindsided by some heavyweight wrestler while playing poker as payback for him defeating the thug's friend earlier (a ranked wrestler himself), and that was the only one where the parents got involved (the thug's mom making him come over and apologize for being a cheapshot artist).

My only concern is that my son wins or loses without giving up. I don't think the law has ever crossed the minds of anyone I know. For the most part, the example above is inspirational (I mean 4-0-0, all defenses, that's great. I would say my son probably learned more from the blindside defeat than any of the other wins - and yes, he did get up.) but not atypical to this neck of the woods. Is it really that impossible for boys to fight anymore? (I mean beside shooting joggers in the back, which is clearly protected under Jemison law)

Anonymous Carlotta August 21, 2013 3:14 PM  

@ Vox
Makes sense. I have military, cops and MA all in the family and it is freaky how they can id others in crowds of strangers. Of course, they make the criminals as well.

@Redjack

Now that is a surprise fighting tactic if I ever heard one.

@Stickwick
It is strange. 20 years ago cops did not get called for a simple butt kicking. Now they get called because a child points their finger like a gun.

@ Nate
That female cop did not die. She had her face smashed in and retired. The guy did it in front of his daughter.

Your fighting style sounds similar to Dads. He said the first thing you do is smash the nose so they see their own blood. That stopped almost everyone. He said if they responded by laughing, or worse the one time when a guy licked his own blood, you were in for the fight of your life. His other goto was acting insane. Then only Irish people still wanted to fight. Being that Dad was Irish, they usually ended up lifelong friends after. Miss him dearly.

Re: gentle giants. My Brother is one of those. Has the longest fuse because he takes quite seriously the damage he can do.

Anonymous Noah B. August 21, 2013 3:22 PM  

"Running away, especially if you randomly zig-zag, you'll get away from threats. Dealing with the legal headaches of a real fight is not something I want to go through."

Brought to you by the Pétain Institute for Self Defense.

Anonymous Daniel August 21, 2013 3:32 PM  

One of the best kid fights I ever saw was between the two largest, quietest most peaceful guys at our school. Seriously, you could hardly hear either one of them when they talked (I was decent friends with both of them). They played line in football but I don't think did any other sports, and never talked to each other - not unfriendly, just not friends.

One day, and no one knows why, the 6 ft. 8, 300-lb guy starts tossing around the 6 ft. 4 guy. I don't know if it started as a joke, over a girl, what (no one ever found out, either)...but the next thing I know, these monsters are just slamming and punching each other senseless. Finally, the smaller one picked up the bigger one, and drove him into a set of closed wooden bleachers and shattered them.

Everyone at lunch is standing around, gape-mouthed, and these two guys stand up, look at the bleachers and say, simultaneously, "Oh, shit."

The gym teacher/lunch monitor guy comes running up and asks what's going on? V, the giant one wasn't too smart and was about to tell the truth, when Bill the littler one says, "Me and V were playing basketball and V tried to dunk it and ran into the bleachers." There wasn't a ball in sight, and the basketball hoop wasn't near the bleachers.

The gym teacher says, "V! How many times I tell you to lose some golldang weight?"

Then he sent them both to go get the custodian as punishment.

That was it. The joke for the rest of the day was wondering when V was going to stop finding splinters in his XXXXL clothes.

Anonymous patrick kelly August 21, 2013 3:33 PM  

"I'm also worried about full contact. Am I just being a pussy? Any tips?"

Vox: "Yes"

I'm working really hard not to be a pussy, but my concerns about full contact sparring are reasonable. Vox has commented recently about how age starts taking it's toll, he's crossed 40, I'm beyond 50 now.

The main difference between me in good shape and 20 and in good shape at 50+ is not strength or even speed, but resilience and durability. I can be doing the most basic, tame looking rolling or falling drill and be fine, until I'm not. Then something just tweaks and hurts miserably for no apparent reason. So far I recover fully after a few minutes. Just reaching for something at an odd angle or turning quickly randomly can cause the same thing. I bruise and swell easier, and take longer to heal or recover than when I was younger. My understanding is this is not unusual at my age.

The self defense gym I've been training with will soon start offering more opportunities for sparring as opposed to their more controlled drills and technique exercises. They will require head gear, mouth piece, cup, and shin guards in order to participate in sparring. I really don't think that's due to pussification but rather the sobering reality of what they teach and associated risks. I could be wrong, I haven't witnessed any of the sparring yet.

I should just jump in and face my fears, but I really dislike extended times of pain or visiting doctors.

Blogger Res Ipsa August 21, 2013 3:38 PM  

"but I really dislike extended times of pain or visiting doctors."

Take a couple of ibuprofen BEFORE you start.

Anonymous Krul August 21, 2013 3:43 PM  

Re: patrick kelly,

Cost/benefit analysis, chief. If you want to fight, and it's worth the risk of injury and medical costs to you, then fight. If not, don't.

Just because a guy's not a fighter, it doesn't mean he's a pussy.

Anonymous Daniel August 21, 2013 3:48 PM  

patrick, you aren't going to die, old man. And if you are, what a way to go. Just unleash it and let the lumps come. Once you break something, you can think about pulling back. My dad had his ribs broken at least twice after the age of 60 fighting bulls and mules, for goodness sakes. I don't care how big of a punch a human competitor delivers...it is nothing compared to a crazed mule that wants you off its back now and sees a tree that'll do the trick.

The worst you are going to get is a concussion or a broken bone. It's not like a bad outcome from a fight is going to result in cancer. Live a little. If you need to police it, just tell yourself that you'll quit after the second fracture - that's manageable. Meanest hit I ever took was from a 70-year old SOB while baling hay with him. If I could have seen straight...or anything, I would have hit him back. I doubt very much that I would have given him a stroke or something.

Blogger Nate August 21, 2013 3:55 PM  

"That female cop did not die. She had her face smashed in and retired. The guy did it in front of his daughter."

ah.. you're correct. one version claims she died. I am still thinking there was a spinal injury though.

as for the fighting style... I don't tend to punch in the nose. I tend to go for much more tender areas... like the base of the skull where it meets the spine... or the throat. and if I need to...I'll generally use some blunt object to make sure the end result is what I have in mind.

come to think of it though... the last time I was actually in a "fight" it went down precisely as you describe. I punched a dumb college kid in the face... and he laid on the ground and cried. literally.

Which is totally BS because there is no way I am strong enough to get that kind of reaction from a single punch... or even a dozen of them.

punk kids... i swear...

Anonymous Carlotta August 21, 2013 3:57 PM  

@ Patrick Kelly
Old and infirm are not a given. Dad was still body building when he passed away and in his 50s. He was often taken for being in his 20s And my Husband by strangers.
He was in physical altercations nearly everyday. He trained for them. Running and lifting always.

Being scared will make you get hurt. I think he no longer enjoyed fighting for the sake of fighting after his 30s and doubled down on technique and strength.
50 is not old for in shape men. And no where near the end for a trained fighter.

There is a youtube of an elderly guy popping a young guy in the face on youtube on a bus. Awesome. Next is of him getting off the bus and asking who else wants some. Good times.

Anonymous Carlotta August 21, 2013 4:02 PM  

@ Nate
I only know because I did my thesis on deadly force as a police tactic and that specific case was used in a training video. It was horrible. Her face literally caved in.

Ok. The punch in the nose was for small kids getting picked on. You have moved onto the adult version.

And it seems that laying on the floor crying is a fighting style. A kid in our neighborhood started stuff all the time and ran away crying or layed down screaming after the first shot. It was so embaressing you never finished and just walked away disqusted lol.

Anonymous Stg58/Animal Mother August 21, 2013 4:59 PM  

Jaime in Texas,

Alex teaches in downtown Houston.

Anonymous Anonymous August 21, 2013 5:54 PM  

Got a buddy who is a real life spook. 5'10" 175lbs. Incline presses 315 for 10 reps. Superhuman. State champion wrestler in HS by the way. You would never know it. Possibly one of the deadliest fighters in the country. I joke with him when he is in town about "what would you do to that guy?", that guy being 6'2 240 or some such. One time in the gym he finally told me. He said look man, I would rip that drinking fountain off the wall and beat him to death with it. He wasn't kidding. Met a few of his friends. One was a skinny guy. He told me "that guy can run a 100 miles". Then he said "seriously, that guy can run 100 miles and remove your head with his bare hands". Again, he wasn't kidding. He explained there are those who fight in the ring, and those that kill for a living. The two can never mix. There are no rules and there is no restraint. The terrible thing is that these people are walking all around us. I have not started shit with another human being since then. I also carry a hand gun everywhere I go except on base.

Anonymous Stickwick August 21, 2013 6:10 PM  

Daniel: I must live in the old part of America. My 15-year old has been in four decent fights that I know of in the last two years, and no one gives a damn. He got blindsided by some heavyweight wrestler while playing poker as payback for him defeating the thug's friend earlier (a ranked wrestler himself), and that was the only one where the parents got involved (the thug's mom making him come over and apologize for being a cheapshot artist).

Sounds like there are still parts of America where sanity prevails. As Carlotta pointed out, given what's so often in the news, it seems unusual for a kid to get a pass for fighting when even joking about violence can land you in big trouble. Frankly, I'm astonished to hear that a mother would actually make her kid apologize for taking a cheap shot; most parents seem to think contacting a lawyer is the proper course of action when their precious children do stuff like that.

Bard: Got a buddy who is a real life spook. 5'10" 175lbs. Incline presses 315 for 10 reps. Superhuman. State champion wrestler in HS by the way. You would never know it.

Not quite the same thing, but the average size of a special forces commando in most Western countries is 5'9" 175 lbs. They're not built like Arnold Schwarzenegger, they're built like Sylvester Stallone in First Blood. You don't want to underestimate those guys; they're trained to kill, not to fight.

Anonymous patrick kelly August 21, 2013 6:50 PM  

@Stickwick:"Not quite the same thing, but the average size of a special forces commando in most Western countries is 5'9" 175 lbs. "

My very limited, brief experience with a few of these guys is the same. It is scary how "normal" they appear and act, able to blend in....hmmm..........sounds like part of their job....

FWIW I'm much smaller than even that, would be a fly weight in the mma...... if I could fight...... I might be qualified to wipe their brow or something......


Anonymous Stickwick August 21, 2013 7:08 PM  

It is scary how "normal" they appear and act, able to blend in....hmmm..........sounds like part of their job....

That's a small part of it, but mostly it's due to the fact that being exceptionally skilled usually has little to do with appearance. Hollywood has conditioned people to look for this when most SF operators look like this. It's a combo of strength, stamina, psychological fitness, and IQ -- none of those things correlates with exceptional physical appearance beyond just being in good condition. Like Vox said, most of these guys are adept at recognizing each other, because they're familiar with the signs; the vast majority of other people have no idea what to look for.

Anonymous Salt August 21, 2013 8:07 PM  

And it seems that laying on the floor crying is a fighting style.

If that's true, I had one hell of a fight. I'd been going out with this girl in my junior year of HS. A ~friend found out, and he really liked her. He was royally pissed and was ready to throw down. Took me less than five minutes verbally and he was crying his eyes out.

Quite the fighting stance he had.

Anonymous Anonymous August 21, 2013 9:13 PM  

Stickwick,
The dead give away is ALWAYS the khacki cargo pants! And hiking type shoes... Never leave home without hiking type shoes with laces.


Also don't sit at a bar at Fort Bragg wearing a ball cap while staring down at your drink. You look just like the other 10 guys wearing ball caps staring down at their drinks.

Anonymous realmatt August 22, 2013 1:02 AM  

Got a buddy who is a real life spook. 5'10" 175lbs. Incline presses 315 for 10 reps. Superhuman. State champion wrestler in HS by the way. You would never know it. Possibly one of the deadliest fighters in the country. I joke with him when he is in town about "what would you do to that guy?", that guy being 6'2 240 or some such. One time in the gym he finally told me. He said look man, I would rip that drinking fountain off the wall and beat him to death with it. He wasn't kidding. Met a few of his friends. One was a skinny guy. He told me "that guy can run a 100 miles". Then he said "seriously, that guy can run 100 miles and remove your head with his bare hands". Again, he wasn't kidding. He explained there are those who fight in the ring, and those that kill for a living. The two can never mix. There are no rules and there is no restraint. The terrible thing is that these people are walking all around us. I have not started shit with another human being since then. I also carry a hand gun everywhere I go except on base.

You're a gullible chump.

Anonymous Anonymous August 22, 2013 1:26 AM  

Heh, I can honestly say I can't fight, but I do have one good story. When I was in roughly seventh grade or so I finally ended up becoming a good soccer player - the best defender on the team, in fact.

Like I said, I can't really fight, but in the middle of one game that I happened to be playing particularly well in this one kid fouled me - badly. Like, shoved me off the ball.

I was PISSED. I went right up to the kid's face and was about to yell "WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT!". The kid got one look at me, backed up, and apologized. I just shook my head and walked away.

It's possible I would have lost a fight if there was one but I was in a zone then and believe me, if the kid wanted to fight there would have BEEN a fight, however stupid it might have been. People told me later that it was the maddest they had ever seen me get, and after the game I only had a vague recollection of it. Like I was in a trance or something. Ah, I miss soccer.

Anonymous Idle Spectator August 22, 2013 2:04 AM  

It's a combo of strength, stamina, psychological fitness, and IQ -- none of those things correlates with exceptional physical appearance beyond just being in good condition.

Exactly.


Took me less than five minutes verbally and he was crying his eyes out.

I like to kill their soul first. Before moving onto the empty shell of a body. If I even need too.

Anonymous Noah B. August 22, 2013 2:06 AM  

"You're a gullible chump."

For my part, I'll say that there are either a lot of fakers out there, or a great many "ex-special-forces" types are dumb as dirt. Or both.

Blogger Markku August 22, 2013 4:55 AM  

For my part, I'll say that there are either a lot of fakers out there, or a great many "ex-special-forces" types are dumb as dirt.

Or it's a little military game to see how much bullshit you can get an outsider to take from you, when you are super cereal about it. When one starts it, others join in without prompting.

In ours it was.

Anonymous Idle Spectator August 22, 2013 12:26 PM  

My 15-year old has been in four decent fights that I know of in the last two years, and no one gives a damn. He got blindsided by some heavyweight wrestler while playing poker as payback for him defeating the thug's friend earlier (a ranked wrestler himself),

Like I said, ass clowns. There's a reason they teach it in K-12 schools. I am always suspicious of their products on the assembly line.


When one starts it, others join in without prompting.

Yeah. I mean, theoretically it is possible he can run 100 miles, as that is considered the longest common type of ultramarathon (~31, 50, ~62, 100), but most of them look like Somali stroke victims. Which probably negates acute cephalic detachment by blunt phalangeal trauma.

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