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Thursday, August 29, 2013

Three landmark moments in pop

Several people have asked me to share my thoughts on the recent performances at the MTV music awards.  I have seven of them.
  1. Neither liked nor cared about Billy Ray Cyrus.
  2. Neither like nor care about his daughter.
  3. Michael Jackson's televised moonwalk marked the beginning of the overt negrification of American pop culture.
  4. Madonna's rolling around on stage in a wedding dress marked the beginning of the overt sexualization of American pop culture.
  5. Whatever it was that Miss Cyrus was doing the other night marks the moment at which those two forces, negrification and sexualization, combined to complete the enwiggification of American pop culture.
  6. Umberto Eco was correct in Apocalypse Postponed when he pointed out that "pop culture" is an oxymoron.  There is nothing cultural or civilized about pop; it is intrinsically anti-culture.
  7. Demographics is destiny. Don't expect the plumbing to long outlive the melodies.
"When modes of music change, the fundamental laws of the state always change with them."
- Plato, Republic 

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292 Comments:

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Blogger Res Ipsa August 29, 2013 2:03 AM  

Well said.

Anonymous Toby Temple August 29, 2013 2:13 AM  

"When modes of music change, the fundamental laws of the state always change with them."
- Plato, Republic

Wow!

Anonymous Herman the German August 29, 2013 2:24 AM  

"When modes of music change, the fundamental laws of the state always change with them."
- Plato, Republic

Well yes...that...And when YKW purposely tries to destroy White, Western Civilsation through social media including, but not limited to, modern hip-hop & Ami Pop Musik. Damned insightful, though...love the quote.

Blogger Jordan179 August 29, 2013 2:35 AM  

Jazz and rock were both invented by and originally-performed by blacks, so I'd put "negrification" back to around the 1920's. As for "sexualization," consider Frank Sinatra and Elvis Presley.

Anonymous TheExpat August 29, 2013 3:32 AM  

"When modes of music change, the fundamental laws of the state always change with them."
- Plato, Republic


Because while both are socionomic symptoms, consensus and legislation (government) tend to move more slowly than music and fashion, which reflect more what the masses are feeling right now.

Blogger Jack Black August 29, 2013 3:44 AM  

"Jazz and rock were both invented by and originally-performed by blacks, so I'd put "negrification" back to around the 1920's. As for "sexualization," consider Frank Sinatra and Elvis Presley."

After WW2 music replaced religion as the group binding system of choice for the west. Concerts are more like religious services in the effect that they have on people.

Anonymous Toby Temple August 29, 2013 3:45 AM  

The modes of music reflect the morality of the people. And change in the modes of music mean change of morality.

Anonymous Roundtine August 29, 2013 4:04 AM  

After WW2 music replaced religion as the group binding system of choice for the west. Concerts are more like religious services in the effect that they have on people.

I distinctly remember a DJ discussing the death of Kurt Cobaine and comparing it to JFK, in that (young) people will remember where they were. I don't remember where I was, but I remember listening to that idiot. I also remember not being a Nirvana fan at the time, and had endless fun with the grunge kids. "Hey man, did you hear?" "What?" "Kurt Cobain's dead." That was good for at least two weeks.

Blogger Phoenician August 29, 2013 4:53 AM  

"Negrification" - but you're not a racist, right, Dipshit?

Blogger TontoBubbaGoldstein August 29, 2013 4:55 AM  

Don't ask me to explain.
I can't.
But Mylie Cyrus's performance was GAY.
Not lesbian.
GAY. GAY. GAY.

Blogger Markku August 29, 2013 5:06 AM  

If a whole bunch of bacteria in a petri dish can be a culture, then surely pop can be one too.

Anonymous VryeDenker August 29, 2013 5:22 AM  

"talent".

Blogger Rantor August 29, 2013 5:36 AM  

I think it was Paglia who pointed out this week that at least Madonna bothered to learn how to dance and move to sexualize her music. Paglia felt the true ugliness of Cyrus' recent performance was the complete lack of skill she demonstrated.

That could well point towards Cyrus as someone attempting to gain popularity without working for it. This is something quite obvious in the skill with which many great artists of the 1950s could dance or sing. 50. Years later and it seems Hollywood is not as interested in finding a multitalented performer, just a rude and crude one who will remove her clothing.

I imagine it is like the difference between having a great wife or a cheap whore. One is a keeper, the other you just want to get finished and move on.

Anonymous zen0 August 29, 2013 6:03 AM  

It seems Phony has Hippopotomonstrosesquipedaliophobia, which is why he is so niggardly with the language.

Anonymous Anonymous August 29, 2013 6:13 AM  

Madonna making love to the black Jesus is one I'll remember forever. I watched that video once, in secret, at my friend's house after school one day, and then I knew why my parents and teachers told us it was a sin.

People who said it was groundbreaking and inspiring were consciously perpetrating evil. The song remains the same.

Anonymous Boris August 29, 2013 7:11 AM  

but you're not a racist, right, Dipshit?

A fair point, since the invented word "negrification" appears to commonly be used on White Nationalist websites and fora. Of course, one sees it crop up in post-colonial literary criticism, but that's hardly what's going on here.

Anonymous YIH August 29, 2013 7:15 AM  

@Phoenician:
Hop on back to the warren now, for your own good...

Anonymous Anonymous August 29, 2013 7:17 AM  

A fair point

Not really.

Anonymous A. Nonymous August 29, 2013 7:20 AM  

A fair point

Not really. Invoking "racism" is never a "fair" debating tactic. It's essentially the modern equivalent of accusing one's opponent of witchcraft.

Anonymous realmatt August 29, 2013 7:26 AM  

Heh. I wonder if that Plato quote has the same double leaning in ancient Greek.

Anonymous Boris August 29, 2013 7:28 AM  

We are not "invoking" racism, we are merely observed it in action. "Negrification" is a racist word used to describe a racist concept. Moreover "enwiggification" refers, not so cleverly, to an actual ethnic slur. Or in other words, if one wishes not to be accused of witchcraft, one should avoid pointy hats, black cats and brooms.

Anonymous Musashi August 29, 2013 7:31 AM  

@Phonenician -
"Negrification" - but you're not a racist, right, Dipshit?

Somewhere in there you think you're making a point.

Quick! Run! He said "racist"!!!!

If you shrieked "racist" and no one cared, would you still be a douche? Kind of a self-answering question, yes?

Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 7:43 AM  

On The Glove I disagree. There was nothing negroid about Micheal Jackson or his music.

It was useless and pathetic. It wasn't black music.

Run DMC was black music at the time.

Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 7:46 AM  

" I also remember not being a Nirvana fan at the time, and had endless fun with the grunge kids. "Hey man, did you hear?" "What?" "Kurt Cobain's dead." That was good for at least two weeks."

It should be pointed out that there a lot of grunge kids that weren't particularly impressed with Nirvana. I loved Alice in Chains but hated Nirvana.

I did like some of the stuff they did on Unplugged though.

My Girl was pretty badass.

Anonymous Orville August 29, 2013 7:50 AM  

Racist means blacks who go polar bear hunting. Racist means black children learning from black culture to torment a 3 year old white girl and post it on the web for fun. Racist is the overwhelming number of black convicts. Racist is young black men attacking and murdering a white couple.

So Phony shove your racist label up your ass. I refuse to accept it.

Anonymous Mr. B.A.D. August 29, 2013 7:58 AM  

Jordan179 "Jazz and rock were both invented by and originally-performed by blacks, so I'd put "negrification" back to around the 1920's. As for "sexualization," consider Frank Sinatra and Elvis Presley."

This is debatable at best. While 90% of Rock and Roll was literally white people singing Black RnB songs, RnB was little more then added African beats to European folk style music (country music) That they had been exposed to while farming and cattle rustling. It also needs to be noted that the most notable Rock and Roll songs (Elvis, Cash, Lewis, Perkins) and the first legitimate Rock and Roll song "Rock around the clock" were all original, not copies. However Vox said "overt" in his statement. There is absolutely a marked point in pop culture where white pop-culture stopped just adopting African style into its own trends and started living African pop-culture as a method to be popular.

Anonymous Toby Temple August 29, 2013 8:04 AM  

Michael Jackson? No way.

Negrification started with Vanilla Ice.

Anonymous Sigyn August 29, 2013 8:08 AM  

Good morning.

Today is a learning experience for me. Already, I've learned it's "racist" to believe that white people have a culture of our own, much less ANY culture of our own, worth preserving. And while it's not racist to resent or reject white Christian influence in "minority" cultures, it's racist to point out or question the benefit of any other group's influence on a white Christian culture.

Boy, I'm glad people like Phony and Boris are here to straighten me out.

Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 8:08 AM  

Rock n Roll itself is based on african drumming. The back beat of Rock... from Metallica to Elvis... is a snare on 2 and 4 and kick on 1 and 3. The snare is the louder higher pitch which emphasizes 2 and 4.

That is straight from Ghana kids. They didn't do it in Europe or Asia.

Anonymous Toby Temple August 29, 2013 8:18 AM  

I've always thought that rock n roll is all about the guitar(electric guitar).

Anonymous daddynichol August 29, 2013 8:21 AM  

...andaone, andatwo, anda.......thank you Myron and da boyz.

Anonymous RL August 29, 2013 8:26 AM  

Enwiggification - Can anyone explain what Vox means by this? It appears Vox has created a new word-I can't find a meaning for it online.

Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 8:28 AM  

RL

Its a play on "wigger".

Blogger Jamie-R August 29, 2013 8:30 AM  

It took a rapper to detail the problems white kids have with hip hop now. It was fun in the 90s, now that its gone mainstream with Obama's rise to power and all that, the joke's over. It's like goth going mainstream then some emo prick getting the Presidency, it's weird and wrong.

Only a darkie could get away with discussing economic equality without being called a freaking commie to be deported to former Soviet Union territories.

Anonymous Toby Temple August 29, 2013 8:30 AM  

RL,

It comes from the word "wiggy". Search that online.

Anonymous RL August 29, 2013 8:32 AM  

@ Nate, Toby Temple

Thanks, I found it. My new word for today.

Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 8:36 AM  

"I've always thought that rock n roll is all about the guitar(electric guitar)"

A common misconception made by people that forget that the electric guitar was being used in blues, jazz, and country as well.

Anonymous YIH August 29, 2013 8:37 AM  

@Nate:
Myself, I think Nirvana improved after Cobain chose to step up to the shotgun. The rest of the band became the Foo Fighters.

Anonymous Harsh August 29, 2013 8:37 AM  

"Negrification" - but you're not a racist, right, Dipshit?

All white people are racist, Phoenician. Didn't you get the memo?

And man, you are totally obsessed with VD, aren't you?

Anonymous hardscrabble farmer August 29, 2013 8:38 AM  

The other night friend invited me to a concert- Stevie Winwood and The Allman Brothers Band.

I haven't seen that many White people in one place since watching Triumph of the Will on Netflix. Orderly, well behaved (Okay, there was a pungent fragrance wafting about with regularity) and for the most part well dressed, and we're talking many thousands of people. I saw exactly one Black (three if you count the drummer and bass player). I witnessed zero agression, hostility, rude behavior, overly loud expository- excluding applause breaks- and one of the most orderly withdrawls from a packed parking area imaginable.

I found the music to be exemplary- the performers certainly weren't mailing anything in, in fact it was as if they knew they weren't going to be doing this all that much longer and wanted to give the best performance they possibly could.

What struck me was the imagery thrown up on the Trinitron screens throughout the show, especially in the case of the Allman Brothers Band- huge blow ups of Negroes holding guitars. I am sure some people recognized them as the influences on the band- old blues guys from the 20's/30's, but I have heard some of that crap and it sounds no more like what was played at that venue than a catfight in the barnyard, and yet the audience was subjected to a subtle form of indoctrination. Yes, if it weren't for the pickings of Mudflap Willy on his cigar box git, In Memory of Elizabeth Reed would never have been possible. It was the only part of the concert that struck me as out of place.

I finally broke down and watched the Miley Cyrus abortion on youtube and found it to be akin to watching a two year old pushing an empty refrigerator box around the back yard pretending it's a space ship. The connection to anything artistic or worthy was absolutely nil. It was shocking simply to be shocking. There was no concern for the audience beyond the reaction intended- to offend or cause controversy, certainly not to entertain or uplift or even express one's talent- not that I believe that young woman possesses any.

Anyway, just thought it was a striking juxtaposition between highly refined craftsmen vs celebrity performers. One gets thousands of people to share in the experience whereas the other gets tens of millions of eyeballs watching their own particular brand of trainwreck.

Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 8:39 AM  

"The rest of the band became the Foo Fighters."

I confess... I never got the Foo Fighters either.

Anonymous Josh August 29, 2013 8:41 AM  

It's weird that two of the most dominant artists in the history of pop are white boys from Memphis.

Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 8:43 AM  

" old blues guys from the 20's/30's, but I have heard some of that crap and it sounds no more like what was played at that venue than a catfight in the barnyard, and yet the audience was subjected to a subtle form of indoctrination. "

This is roughly as dumb as anything Phoenician has ever posted here.

Anonymous Big Bill August 29, 2013 8:47 AM  

Phoenician: ""Negrification" - but you're not a racist, right, Dipshit?"

I think the proper term in the Negro community is not "racist" but "race man".

As the great Assata Shakur said, "a 'Race man' or 'Race woman' is a loyal member of the Black Race who dedicate their life to directly contributing to the betterment of Black people."

Vox is definitely a white Race man ... just like you!

Blogger River Cocytus August 29, 2013 8:50 AM  

Interesting, as there is certainly a difference between fusion (such as Ragtime and Jazz and even Rock n' Roll demonstrated) of black and white musical styles and 'negrification' - where the white musicians are essentially just copying what the black musicians are doing without modification. But I guess there's some truth to the reaction that one black person had - not that what Cyrus did was racist, but rather that it was in truth a ministrel show. But what she had wrong was the racist part because - this is true anti-racism; taking on even the worst parts of the other without modification or critique or the slightest drop of irony.

This is anti-white racism, this is 'white girl bleed a lot', this is our own women made into a ministrel show for the viewing public. How insulting.

From now on, I will have to consider white liberals a distinct race from the rest of white people.

Anonymous Harsh August 29, 2013 8:55 AM  

Enwiggification - Can anyone explain what Vox means by this? It appears Vox has created a new word-I can't find a meaning for it online.

Not to be confused with "enbiggens." Because that would be totally cromulent.

Anonymous Porky August 29, 2013 9:06 AM  



You want to know when the slide into anti-culture began? It wasn't MJ. He was never about banging slutty teenage white girls.

The slide began with Rick Rubin, RUN DMC and Aerosmith. (Damn that song was catchy.) And made everybody want to be like RUN DMC and buy a pair of Adidas. Made those idiots RUN DMC look hipper than hip, and made rock legends Aerosmith the butt of the joke.

The whole thing was basically breaking down the walls of segregation and finding common ground around...... banging slutty teenage white girls.

Miley is simply carrying on the proud tradition.

Anonymous hardscrabble farmer August 29, 2013 9:15 AM  

" old blues guys from the 20's/30's, but I have heard some of that crap and it sounds no more like what was played at that venue than a catfight in the barnyard, and yet the audience was subjected to a subtle form of indoctrination. "

"This is roughly as dumb as anything Phoenician has ever posted here."

No, it's just my opinion. Every old blues song by a Black performer I have ever heard- sounds awful to my ears. They don't articulate, it's repetative as hell, every song sounds the same and aside from guys like George Benson and BB King, there doesn't appear to be any real mastery of their craft and stage peformance.

You may enjoy it, but it doesn't make you right.

Anonymous Boris August 29, 2013 9:17 AM  

"Yes, if it weren't for the pickings of Mudflap Willy on his cigar box git, In Memory of Elizabeth Reed would never have been possible."

Since the Allman Brothers have been explicit about their influences--and even cover several of Robert Johnson's songs--it seems obvious that "Elizabeth Reed" would not have been the same without said influences. Perhaps the Allman Brothers are lying, but reaching that conclusion would necessitate a great deal of paranoia and selective reasoning. But then many people will contort reason and experience to convince themselves that black people have no value whatsoever.

Anonymous Eric C August 29, 2013 9:19 AM  

"But then many people will contort reason and experience to convince themselves that black people have no value whatsoever." BoreUs

You will find few, if any, of those people here.

Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 9:21 AM  

"You may enjoy it, but it doesn't make you right."

What makes me right is an education in music theory and appreciation. You have no idea what you're listening to and given your generalizations you have no idea what mastery is and not even remotely qualified to be using the word in a sentence.

Everyone from Jimmy Page to Roy Orbison to Jerry Reed to Greg Allmann to Stevie Ray Vaughn considered them masters but "to your ear" they aren't?

Its not their problem. The problem is your ear.

Anonymous Boris August 29, 2013 9:23 AM  

Of course, "Elizabeth Reed" is more jazz inspired and Duane Allman cited Miles Davis and John Coltrane as highly influential. So jazz not blues. But still black.

Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 9:27 AM  

"Since the Allman Brothers have been explicit about their influences--and even cover several of Robert Johnson's songs--"

yeah but see its not repetitive when the Allmann Brothers play it.

/facepalm

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian, King of Aquilonia August 29, 2013 9:28 AM  

But the Allmann Bros are racist because they have a song called Whipping Post.

Racissss

Blogger River Cocytus August 29, 2013 9:30 AM  

@Boris

Jazz is, from a white perspective, 'race music'; it's just like how Obama is black from a white perspective.

But on the other hand, from a black perspective, it could easily be argued that Jazz is white (Consider for instance, George Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue) just as if they wanted to they could consider Obama a white man.

What to do with afro-cuban-jazz -- ? Who knows. I guess it's Neopolitan flavored.

Anonymous paradox August 29, 2013 9:31 AM  

Cyrus is the gayification American pop culture. Yea, it had negrification* and sexualization junk DNA, but definitely ghay.



*That's raciss... use niggaification. Nigga isn't racist.

Anonymous Roundtine August 29, 2013 9:31 AM  

The thing that ruined right from the start was her tongue. Did she eat a hot pepper? Was she having a stroke? Was she so high/drunk that she lost control of it? Did she have a hair on it but didn't want to pick it off?

Anonymous ericcs August 29, 2013 9:31 AM  

Why is Phoenician so obsessed with VD and dipping 'something' into shit? It appears that, once started, his queer mancrush on Vox can never be satisfied. Unrequited homoerotic fixation... you might want to see a professional about that someday, Phoenician, you know, get it fixed.

Blogger River Cocytus August 29, 2013 9:36 AM  

@ericcs

"NTTAWWT"...

(always add that one at the end just for kicks.)

Anonymous paradox August 29, 2013 9:36 AM  

Roundtine August 29, 2013 9:31 AM

The thing that ruined right from the start was her tongue.


Tongue, dikish hair, total gayification.

Anonymous Daniel August 29, 2013 9:42 AM  

"The newest song which the singers have, they will be afraid that he may be praising, not new songs, but a new kind of song; and this ought not to be praised, or conceived to be the meaning of the poet; for any musical innovation is full of danger to the whole State, and ought to be prohibited." - Plato, Republic

I would argue the opposite - that the Cyrus sacrifice was actually a sign of the State heeding the advice to prohibit innovation, and to promote the traditional music of State slavery. Modern videos and music actively and overtly promote the police state, global governance, monarch programming, subservience, conformity, and the Keynesian cult. The overt messages of Lady Gaga, Ke$ha and Katy Perry, Jay-Z and the whole cabal has almost nothing to do with what one would think traditional mindless "sex, drugs and rock n' roll" had in focus.

That wasn't hedonism. That was State theater.

Anonymous hardscrabble farmer August 29, 2013 9:45 AM  

"Since the Allman Brothers have been explicit about their influences--and even cover several of Robert Johnson's songs--"

yeah but see its not repetitive when the Allmann Brothers play it.

/facepalm

Not getting me, are you?

Clearly the Allman Brothers see these men as their influence, they made sure no one could miss it with their 40 foot jumbo trinitron salute to old black men, I get it.

What I am saying is that I have two ears and the necessary recptors inside my brain to interpret sound and the TWO SOUNDS are not alike.

It's like the Cargo Cult in reverse.

Face palm all you like, but unless you can provide two examples to specifically dissuade me from my cognition, it's just opinion.

Here's Robert Johnson's original version of Crossroads-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd60nI4sa9A

Sounds like what you'd expect from a dude sitting by the entrance to a subway with an upturned hat.

Here's the Allman Brothers-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCtdKWWfZG8

This is more akin to a symphony performance in technical terms. The guitar work is so dissimilar you'd be hard put to prove it's the same instrument.

I can't see how there's much of a comparison between the two and if you prefer the first to the latter, then I facepalm you back.


Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 9:45 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Toby Temple August 29, 2013 9:46 AM  

Its just a publicity stunt to get people to talk about her.

A sign that her popularity is on the rocks. And she knows it.

Blogger Lawrence August 29, 2013 9:48 AM  

"Negrification" - but you're not a racist, right, Dipshit?

You have used "dipshit" several times in your trolling efforts. Surely you can come up with something slightly more original?

Also, considering the word "negro" is merely a Latin-based terminology for the color "black," there is nothing inherently racist or offensive in the word. Mr. Beale did not use the offensive derivative that black folk frequently use on themselves.

Anonymous Brother Thomas August 29, 2013 9:49 AM  

Amerika is that rare place that exists in a cultural vacuum. That’s why it is so horribly and mind numbingly boring.

Blogger rcocean August 29, 2013 9:50 AM  

Pop music and "Culture" went into the trash can along time ago. Originally pop culture feasted off real culture. For example, Jazz and R&B were just black people riffing off country/standard white music. By the 1980s pop music had left standard old-line music behind. It's completely original and completely bad.

Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 9:51 AM  

"This is more akin to a symphony performance in technical terms. The guitar work is so dissimilar you'd be hard put to prove it's the same instrument.

I can't see how there's much of a comparison between the two and if you prefer the first to the latter, then I facepalm you back."

What this demonstrates is you can't tell the difference between performance and production.

Basically you're complaining that Henry Ford didn't build a 2013 BMW 6 series.

Blogger Ospurt August 29, 2013 9:53 AM  

Everybody talks about Miley, but in my opinion Gaga was the more prescient one. Her song "Applause" was a downright anthem to seeking affirmation

I live for the applause, applause, applause.
I live for the applause-plause,
live for the applause-plause.
Live for the way that you cheer and scream for me.
The applause, applause, applause.

Give me that thing that I love


Given the Plato quote above this line of the song is more interesting:


Pop culture was in art now,
Art's in Pop culture in me.


Additionally, it is true that the "Concert" is the new religious experience. Just look at any medium to large church and you will see a lot of time put into musical and theatrical production.

Pop Culture in Me... indeed.

Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 9:57 AM  

"I can't see how there's much of a comparison between the two and if you prefer the first to the latter, then I facepalm you back."

Also it has nothing to do with which one I prefer. its about appreciating what came before.

Its about knowing your roots.

The notion that those men weren't displaying mastery is pathetic and embarrassing.

Go down to Preservation Hall in New Orleans. Let your little ears hear. Then come back and tell us all about how you heard nothing but street performers.

Anonymous Salt August 29, 2013 9:57 AM  

Here's Robert Johnson's original version of Crossroads

Forgetting any historical implications, sounds like a strangled cat to me.

Anonymous YIH August 29, 2013 9:58 AM  

Was she so high/drunk that she lost control of it?
That's what my moneyis on
Remember when Walt Disney didn't want Annette in a bikini?
Times sure have changed, along with who took over.

Anonymous hardscrabble farmer August 29, 2013 10:01 AM  

"What makes me right is an education in music theory and appreciation. You have no idea what you're listening to and given your generalizations you have no idea what mastery is and not even remotely qualified to be using the word in a sentence.

Everyone from Jimmy Page to Roy Orbison to Jerry Reed to Greg Allmann to Stevie Ray Vaughn considered them masters but "to your ear" they aren't?

Its not their problem. The problem is your ear."


I missed this the first time, but it's definitely worth a response.

I know nothing about music except that I have listened to it my entire life- raised in a family that played classical music during most of my waking hours, exposed to live performances of jazz, bluegrass, chamber music, symphonies, etc, etc. In my early teens I went towards a mix of rock (Pink Floyd school) and fusion (Pat Methany).

The people you mentioned above were NO DOUBT influenced by the performers you've named, the ones they honored on their album covers and in concert, as well as having been imbued with Negro worship of their era. They were as much influenced by the Cathedral. Three generations of being unable to point out the 800 pound gorilla in the room has led a lot of people to the BELIEF that these "influences" were somehow superior to those who were influenced. Mozart probably owed a lot to guys pounding on hollow logs and if in his time he were relentlessly brainwashed into a form of Negro worship present in the US during the last half century, you and I would probably be having the same conversation because Wolfgang pointed out that Gumba Doody was his influence- whatever.

All I ask is that someone with no knowledge of who's influenced whom LISTEN to the two sounds side by side and tell me with a straight face that Robert Johnson was the masterful composer/performer and that (fill in the blank who claims him as an influence) is the substandard alcolyte.

I don't have anything further to add- music like art and beauty is certainly in the eye (or ear) of the beholder. That there are people willing to pay millions of dollars for an all black canavs by Ad Rheinhardt while passing up a landscape by someone in the New Hope School of impressionism that goes for a fraction of the cost doesn't make an all black canvas art.

But thanks for the education, it's been illustrative of my premise.

Blogger Guitar Man August 29, 2013 10:09 AM  

I've never heard anyone compare Johnson to today's production standards. That's like comparing, I don't know, Bob Cousy to Magic Johnson. Or perhaps the average 60's NBA team to the average 90s basketball team. Different circumstances brought about different results.

That said, Robert Johnson slide technique was standout for the era.

Anonymous Myrddin August 29, 2013 10:09 AM  

You have used "dipshit" several times in your trolling efforts. Surely you can come up with something slightly more original?

Please, no. It's his signature. It's how we know he truly loves us.

Anonymous YIH August 29, 2013 10:10 AM  

When I pulled up that youtube link I have to admit that was the first I'd heard that version - yikes that was awful!
Myself I think Clapton did better but that's just my opinion.

Blogger IM2L844 August 29, 2013 10:10 AM  

"Negrification" - but you're not a racist, right, Dipshit?

Of course. When a primitive intellect is confronted with a reality dictated by Occam's Razor to be the axiomatic explanation, but is nevertheless contrary to the inherent presuppositions of it's own worldview, it's baffled and must construct an alternate reality to make sense of it all. Often, a racist behind every bush does the trick.

You're simply delusional, Phony. Sometimes reality can be misconstrued as offensive, but reality is not offensive. Reality just is.

Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 10:11 AM  

we could also point out that a massive portion of Led Zeppelin's catalog is literally ripped off from Howlin' Wolf, Willie Dixon, and John Lee Hooker and Robert Johnson.

But hey... They were just hacks right?

Also... Willie Dixon sued Led Zeppelin. They settled out of court.

Anonymous Josh August 29, 2013 10:12 AM  

They were as much influenced by the Cathedral. Three generations of being unable to point out the 800 pound gorilla in the room has led a lot of people to the BELIEF that these "influences" were somehow superior to those who were influenced.

Bzzt. Fifteen yard penalty for using moldbuggery lingo.

Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 10:22 AM  

"All I ask is that someone with no knowledge of who's influenced whom LISTEN to the two sounds side by side and tell me with a straight face that Robert Johnson was the masterful composer/performer and that (fill in the blank who claims him as an influence) is the substandard alcolyte."

All i ask is that someone with no knowledge who's influenced whom examine a 1955 mercedes side by side with a 2013 SLK and tell me with a straight face that those germans back then were masterful engineer and that modern engineers are standing on their shoulders.

I hope this illustrates just how stupid you have been.

additionally... No one here has claimed that Greg Allmann was substandard. No one has said Robert Johnson was better.

What I have said... is that your claim that Johnson and others were hacks is incredibly stupid.

Anonymous bob k. mando August 29, 2013 10:22 AM  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9oCANhY7v8


while i like Burnside's music, his life is a snapshot of feral vibrancy.

"Within the span of one year his father, two brothers, and uncle were all murdered in [ Chicago ],
...
Burnside later said "I didn't mean to kill nobody ... I just meant to shoot the sonofabitch in the head. Him dying was between him and the Lord."

AFTER seeing all the violence and heartache that vibrancy brings
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xth3ke4AXpE

the above is Burnside's excuse for murdering a man over a dice game? Him dying was between him and the Lord?

*shakes head*

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian, King of Aquilonia August 29, 2013 10:23 AM  

NOW FOR THE REAL QUESTION THAT TIES IN THIS THREAD:

What is the over/under for when Miley poses for Playboy (or perhaps it should be Hustler?)

5 years?

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian, King of Aquilonia August 29, 2013 10:23 AM  

No, make that 3 years?

Anonymous Ann Adult August 29, 2013 10:26 AM  

"Negrification" - but you're not a racist, right, Dipshit?

Oh, Boo Hoo, ya little whiner.

Anonymous Josh August 29, 2013 10:26 AM  

No one poses for playboy anymore, they just release a sex tape through vivid

Anonymous Clay August 29, 2013 10:31 AM  

Those Kardashian bitchez 'sho got them a dose of negrification.

Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 10:32 AM  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBN6A5HlCwk

Anonymous The other skeptic August 29, 2013 10:35 AM  

Rock n Roll itself is based on african drumming.

And your point is?

We might as well imply that speech is based on African speaking if we accept that we are all descended from people from Africa (although the subtle details, like modern sub-Saharan Africans being probably equidistant from those early African humans, might spoil the implication.)

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian, King of Aquilonia August 29, 2013 10:38 AM  

Josh: ....they just release a sex tape through vivid

You are correct. I was having a senior moment.

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian, King of Aquilonia August 29, 2013 10:39 AM  

Over/under on the Miley sex tape?

Anonymous Porky August 29, 2013 10:39 AM  

Go down to Preservation Hall in New Orleans. Let your little ears hear.

Ugh. Those guys are so old and crusty they're farting dust.

Check out Wynton Marsalis instead.

Anonymous YIH August 29, 2013 10:40 AM  

@Conan:
What is the over/under for when Miley poses for Playboy (or perhaps it should be Hustler?)
I suspect that likely won't happen. Rumor has it that Disney has a 'no porn' clause in the contract - likely why Britany or Linsey haven't gone there either.

Anonymous DonReynolds August 29, 2013 10:42 AM  

Toby Temple..."Michael Jackson? No way.
Negrification started with Vanilla Ice."

Naaah.....Eric Hoffer wrote an entire chapter on the "Negrofication of Youth" several decades ago.

Anonymous Sigyn August 29, 2013 10:45 AM  

I'm still waiting for someone to bring up classical music--real music, with all the grandeur and majesty that Western Civilization used to offer.

You guys are bickering about the music of the decline. I'm sorry, but you are.

Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 10:48 AM  

"Check out Wynton Marsalis instead."

hey dumbass... I saw Marsalis drop by just to play with them just a few months ago.

Anonymous Toby Temple August 29, 2013 10:50 AM  

I'm still waiting for someone to bring up classical music--real music, with all the grandeur and majesty that Western Civilization used to offer.

Like this one?

Blogger Guitar Man August 29, 2013 10:51 AM  

Sigyn,

There was some terrible classical music. We are only hearing what survived the centuries. What era are you particular to? Baroque? Romantic? Classical?

Anonymous DonReynolds August 29, 2013 10:52 AM  

@Conan:
What is the over/under for when Miley poses for Playboy (or perhaps it should be Hustler?)

YIH..."I suspect that likely won't happen. Rumor has it that Disney has a 'no porn' clause in the contract - likely why Britany or Linsey haven't gone there either."

Honestly speaking:
I am pretty sure Playboy would not be at all interested in adding her to their pages, except as a comment on "culture". She is all face and not much of a bod. If she had any class or glamor that might help.

Hustler does not care about her face outrages either, I am pretty sure, since they mostly feature the other lips. And as you can see, she has the same body as the paperboy (and wears much the same clothes).

Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 10:53 AM  

"I'm still waiting for someone to bring up classical music--real music, with all the grandeur and majesty that Western Civilization used to offer.

You guys are bickering about the music of the decline. I'm sorry, but you are."

sugartits...

until you know enough to realize that the term "classical" is a meaningless label applied by the ignorant to about 10 different types of music... you shouldn't be commenting.

Anonymous YIH August 29, 2013 10:53 AM  

@Conan:
Tapes? Nobody does those anymore, or DVD's for that matter.
There are scads of sites that work just like YouTube - for pr0n.
That's how I found out about the Miss Delaware scandal.
BTW, I've seen that vid, it's lousy, every stereotype you can think of - including the cheap motel.

Anonymous Harsh August 29, 2013 10:54 AM  

NOW FOR THE REAL QUESTION THAT TIES IN THIS THREAD:

What is the over/under for when Miley poses for Playboy (or perhaps it should be Hustler?)

5 years?


Over. She'll hit the wall and then pose nude or do a nude scene in a movie to desperately try to "reclaim her sexuality" or something.

Anonymous Harsh August 29, 2013 10:55 AM  

until you know enough to realize that the term "classical" is a meaningless label applied by the ignorant to about 10 different types of music... you shouldn't be commenting.

Nate's right. The label should only be applied to classic rock.

Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 10:56 AM  

"We might as well imply that speech is based on African speaking if we accept that we are all descended from people from Africa"

No. that would only be accurate if the clicks and pops were still evident in our language.


Anonymous bob k. mando August 29, 2013 10:57 AM  

DonReynolds August 29, 2013 10:42 AM
Naaah.....Eric Hoffer wrote an entire chapter on the "Negrofication of Youth" several decades ago.




i'ma trump in with Norman Mailer right here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Negro

as far as Miley goes, i'm starting to wonder how long until overt sex acts are being performed at the Superbowl halftime show.
http://i.imgur.com/GarNy5T.png



YIH August 29, 2013 10:40 AM
I suspect that likely won't happen. Rumor has it that Disney has a 'no porn' clause in the contract



i dunno. Miley seems to be 'all in' on this kind of thing.


http://i.imgur.com/3PR39Cf.jpg

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian, King of Aquilonia August 29, 2013 10:57 AM  

No Toby, like this:

Basil Poledouris - The Orgy

Anonymous Harsh August 29, 2013 11:00 AM  

No Toby, like this:

Basil Poledouris - The Orgy


Basil was the best. He left us far too early.

Anonymous Mike M. August 29, 2013 11:04 AM  

Sigyn is right. The situation is indeed dire.

Time to break out the nukes.

Load up everything Richard Wagner ever composed! Mere Bach won't hit hard enough.

Anonymous maniacprovost August 29, 2013 11:06 AM  

I think the decline of art began with Romanticism, Impressionism, etc. They posited that art could be improved by combining technical mastery with expression of human emotion / subjective experience etc.

The mind-numbed masses, who cannot hold more than one thought at a time, immediately substituted subjectivity for mastery, and the descent into madness began.

Anonymous Josh August 29, 2013 11:10 AM  

No, the decline of art began when artists stopped being compensated by royal or noble patrons and began being compensated by the masses.

Anonymous Sigyn August 29, 2013 11:11 AM  

No, I was thinking more like stuff as late as this.

Can't dance to it, but you can FEEL to it.

Anonymous DonReynolds August 29, 2013 11:12 AM  

DonReynolds August 29, 2013 10:42 AM
Naaah.....Eric Hoffer wrote an entire chapter on the "Negrofication of Youth" several decades ago.

bob k. mando...."i'ma trump in with Norman Mailer right here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Negro"

Very good, bob. "White Negro" was first published in 1957. Hoffer's book The True Believer was published in 1951. Both were New Yorkers. Hoffer left for California in 1920.

We are both correct. This has been going on for all of my lifetime.

Anonymous Sigyn August 29, 2013 11:16 AM  

until you know enough to realize that the term "classical" is a meaningless label applied by the ignorant to about 10 different types of music...

I do realize that, darlin'. Unlike a certain Dimwit Who Will Not Be Named, I'm not going to get hypertechnical with you guys. It's a commonly-used term for a broad category of music that does not include negrified drumming and overdriven guitars--the instruments of the decline.

If you guys want to forget all that and dispute which forms of anti-culture are superior to others, go right ahead. I'll be enjoying Vivaldi over here.

Anonymous The other skeptic August 29, 2013 11:16 AM  

when he pointed out that "pop culture" is an oxymoron.

Technically, it is culture, but I understand the sentiment.

However, from the point of view of those who make money from music, there is more money in the Beatles than in Beethoven.

Indeed, the lower the common denominator, the more money, and we know from countless examples that blacks are more easily parted from their money than whites or some Asians.

It think that's because money be raciss.

Anonymous Sigyn August 29, 2013 11:19 AM  

No, the decline of art began when artists stopped being compensated by royal or noble patrons and began being compensated by the masses.

I tend to concur. Most People Are Philistines, after all.

Anonymous Huckleberry - est. 1977 August 29, 2013 11:19 AM  

the instruments of the decline

Those instruments -- even in Western Culture -- long predate the decline of which you speak.

Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 11:20 AM  

" It's a commonly-used term for a broad category of music that does not include negrified drumming and overdriven guitars--the instruments of the decline."

it doesn't?

So you're not familiar with Rite of Spring then?

Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 11:23 AM  

What you people are missing... is that the average man in 1600 knew little more of Mozart than you know of David Holsinger.

And 300 years from now... Holsinger and John Williams will both still be remembered.. and no one will know who Justin Timberlake was.

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian, King of Aquilonia August 29, 2013 11:23 AM  

Sigyn: .... I'll be enjoying Vivaldi over here.

Let the rioting begin.

Anonymous patrick kelly August 29, 2013 11:24 AM  

@hsfarmer:" They don't articulate, it's repetative as hell, every song sounds the same and aside "

Sounds like my Dad's criticism of all music since about 1955. He hates it when I remind him that guys his age invented the stuff (electric rock combo and variations).

As far as "Elizabeth Reed" goes, might get that without all those meetings at the crossroads, but definitely no Led Zeppelin or Cream, or Hendrix, or SRV, or Booker T.....

I'm not from the "only real blues was played by a blind old negro after a day of pickin' cotton and wrasslin' gators' in the swamp on a old beat up out of tune box strung with barbed wire and a broken bottle for a slide" school, but I do have an appreciation and experience, educated exposure to the roots of the modern music I like.

Listen to any other recording of one guy and an acoustic guitar singing from the same era, some of the "cat scratchiness" is from technological and production issues. Put Mr. Johnson in front of a modern rhythm section with a 335 plugged into a Marshall stack with a modern producer and studio would likely be an awesome surprise.... I know, woulda', coulda', shoulda'.........

Duane and 'Retha paired up on The Weight was one of the most magical musical moments ever.... can't get there without the crossroads......

Anonymous Sigyn August 29, 2013 11:27 AM  

So you're not familiar with Rite of Spring then?

Oh, you mean a piece of music reflecting Russia's pagan era? What a shock that it would have tribal drums. But overdriven guitars in the 1910's lolwut?

Also, it's crap--just really famous crap.

Blogger Guitar Man August 29, 2013 11:29 AM  

Sigyn,

I enjoy many forms of music from many different time periods. I'll even embarrass myself and admit to being a Megadeth fan. Nate will trash them as an 80s fifteen year old's band with angst issues.

If you honestly only enjoy "classical" music, that's fine. I'm just not going to be convinced that roots rock, or folk music, etc., is a lesser form.

Anonymous Sigyn August 29, 2013 11:29 AM  

What you people are missing... is that the average man in 1600 knew little more of Mozart than you know of David Holsinger.

I'd be surprised, darlin', considering that Mozart wasn't born until 1756.

Now, you were saying about your "education in music theory and appreciation"?

Anonymous Sigyn August 29, 2013 11:32 AM  

If you honestly only enjoy "classical" music, that's fine. I'm just not going to be convinced that roots rock, or folk music, etc., is a lesser form.

Oh, don't get me wrong; I have more modern favorites. I just don't pretend that they're anything near the pinnacle of Western musical achievement.

It's like ice cream vs. roast beef. Both are tasty, but you'd be silly to pretend that you'll get as much nutritional value out of the ice cream.

Anonymous 43rd Virginia Calalry August 29, 2013 11:32 AM  

I wonder what fundamental law changed when "Dimebag" developed his "squishy" tone ?

Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 11:32 AM  

***eye roll***

says the girl that just referred to one of the most influential pieces of music ever written as "crap".

You and hardscrabble should get along nicely.

But good catch on the dates.

Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 11:34 AM  

"It's like ice cream vs. roast beef. Both are tasty, but you'd be silly to pretend that you'll get as much nutritional value out of the ice cream."

This is an oft repeated analogy that needs to be made more. a lot more.

Anonymous patrick kelly August 29, 2013 11:34 AM  

re: "Put Mr. Johnson in front of a modern rhythm section .."

Some of later Burnsides sounds a lot like what I would expect.

Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 11:35 AM  

"Oh, you mean a piece of music reflecting Russia's pagan era? What a shock that it would have tribal drums."

sure. that perfectly explains why african drumming is found in music ment to reflect russian pagan vikings.

Anonymous Sigyn August 29, 2013 11:36 AM  

Yes, Nate, it was very influential. Manure also has influence on a field, but that doesn't make it not crap.

Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 11:37 AM  

The point is african music has been influencing european music for centuries including the very high brow art music that many people mistakenly hold up as the purest example of western european art.

Anonymous Sigyn August 29, 2013 11:38 AM  

sure. that perfectly explains why african drumming is found in music ment to reflect russian pagan vikings.

Oh, so you agree that Rite of Spring, like other "classical" music, is free of negrified drumming and overdriven guitars?

Anonymous Josh August 29, 2013 11:39 AM  

I just don't pretend that they're anything near the pinnacle of Western musical achievement.

No one is saying that.

No one.

Anonymous Josh August 29, 2013 11:41 AM  

Oh, so you agree that Rite of Spring, like other "classical" music, is free of negrified drumming and overdriven guitars?

So the goal posts have moved from drumming to negrified drumming.

Anonymous Sigyn August 29, 2013 11:44 AM  

No goal post move, as documented here:

"It's a commonly-used term for a broad category of music that does not include negrified drumming and overdriven guitars--the instruments of the decline."

The goalposts, there they are, right where they were.

Anonymous civilServant August 29, 2013 11:44 AM  

6.Umberto Eco was correct in Apocalypse Postponed when he pointed out that "pop culture" is an oxymoron. There is nothing cultural or civilized about pop; it is intrinsically anti-culture.

Well ... yes. This needs to be pointed out?

5.Whatever it was that Miss Cyrus was doing the other night marks the moment at which those two forces, negrification and sexualization, combined to complete the enwiggification of American pop culture.

NIN AC/DC and numerous others seem to be in the lead actually.

Anonymous ericcs August 29, 2013 11:44 AM  

Nate: "...And 300 years from now... Holsinger and John Williams will both still be remembered..."

This is rich, making John Williams some kind of exemplar. John Williams cinematic scores can't even begin to compare with those of the '50's, such as Miklos Rozsa's score for Ben-Hur (there are more such composers of the era and more such examples). Can you recall even one William's score that is even remotely memorable, let alone able to be sung, whistled, etc.? Williams should stick to his second-rate classical music, instead of forcing his third-rate cinematic cr*p on the rest of us. And yes, I played and studied classical music for 18 years, so don't pretend you are more erudite than I am.

Anonymous realmatt August 29, 2013 11:48 AM  

Nate has a degree in philosophy from the University of Chicago.

Anonymous ericcs August 29, 2013 11:51 AM  

Nate: "The point is african music has been influencing european music for centuries including the very high brow art music that many people mistakenly hold up as the purest example of western european art."

Sorry, no, the point is that, if there were no barbaric n!**er music ever in the world, would all the rest still exist in more or less the same forms as we see today?

Anonymous Susan August 29, 2013 11:53 AM  

About the only thing Miley Cyrus is good for now is as a wakeup call for parents of daughters. She is a great object lesson in what not to be when you grow up.

I have a lot of sympathy for parents of young girls right now. I thought I had it bad when Madonna was popular. She is nothing compared to Miley, Gaga, and Mrs. Carter.

Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 11:53 AM  

"Can you recall even one William's score that is even remotely memorable, let alone able to be sung, whistled, etc."

WHAT???

You mean besides star wars? No right.. I mean its not like millions of people walk around humming Vader's theme or anything.

Or indiana jones... or super man.. or the open theme from the Olympics?

He's probably the most recognized modern composer there is.

Anonymous Nathan August 29, 2013 11:56 AM  

Give me Jazz any day. Not only did it preserve melodic traditions when Western "classical" music went to paint by number patterns and mechanical operations played upon the same, it expanded harmony from sevenths with the occasional ninth into elevenths and thirteens and combined Western polyharmonic traditions with African syncopation and rhythms and a tradition of improvisation.

Sorry, the music of the decline is punk and modern R&B, both of which came about in the 1970s. The abandonment of structure and songs dependent on melody and bass for "three chords and the truth" and songs based solely on chant and rhythm killed the Western music tradition.

Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 11:56 AM  

"Sorry, no, the point is that, if there were no barbaric n!**er music ever in the world, would all the rest still exist in more or less the same forms as we see today?"

I'm not going to discuss music with someone that apparently doesn't realize that John Williams wrote Star Wars... or who apparently doesn't realize that its instantly recognizable.

Anonymous Mike M. August 29, 2013 12:00 PM  

I'm inclined to agree. For about the last 75 years, film scores have been the biggest consumers of new orchestral compositions. And both John Williams and Jerry Goldsmith could crank out some outstanding pieces.

Anonymous realmatt August 29, 2013 12:00 PM  

Nate has a degree in musical masturbation from the University of @scalzi.

Anonymous ericcs August 29, 2013 12:03 PM  

Star Wars... lovely example of a heavy-handed stomp through some banal chords. You failed to read my post... I didn't state that it wasn't necessarily "recognizable", I stated that it was essentially impossible to hum, sing, whistle, or in any way reproduce on your own. The damn thing doesn't even conclude properly, memorable or otherwise. Please read carefully next time, thank you.

Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 12:05 PM  

"I stated that it was essentially impossible to hum, sing, whistle, or in any way reproduce on your own."

What world do you live in? People walk around humming star wars and paricularly Vaders Theme all the time.

Anonymous Sigyn August 29, 2013 12:05 PM  

Well, Nate, if you want to break out the "people will remember" gun:

"Messiah". Innovative for its time, influential, and everyone but everyone has heard the Hallelujah Chorus in some form.

When it comes to notability and longevity, Handel's had everyone beaten since 1742.

Anonymous VanDerMerwe August 29, 2013 12:06 PM  

You mean besides star wars? No right.. I mean its not like millions of people walk around humming Vader's theme or anything.

Only because the original is more difficult.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBsKplb2E6Q

Blogger Guitar Man August 29, 2013 12:07 PM  

Handel rules.

Anonymous bob k. mando August 29, 2013 12:08 PM  

Nate August 29, 2013 11:23 AM
And 300 years from now... Holsinger and John Williams will both still be remembered.




*Williams* will be remembered? even though half of his movie scores were stolen ( Jaws and the Imperial March are particularly obvious ) straight out of Wagner's Ring cycle?

i dunno. maybe his orchestral compositions demonstrate some originality? i'm not familiar with them so i wouldn't know.




civilServant August 29, 2013 11:44 AM
NIN AC/DC and numerous others seem to be in the lead actually.



i'm pretty sure i've never in my life seen a black person acting like Nine Inch Nails or AC / DC. Living Colour might be near AC / DC, that's about it.

you might as well say that Rammstein is whigger.

http://vimeo.com/52561017

nope, not see'in it. vulgar, done for shock value and hipster irony, sure. whigger? no way.

Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 12:08 PM  

good to know that humability is a good measure for musical quality though. That's brilliant.

Anonymous Daniel August 29, 2013 12:09 PM  

The State has a history of slaying singers, for reasons personal, political and public (and Platonic).

The thing that is being missed in all of this is that music award shows are nothing in terms of setting cultural agendas that they were when Jackson was doing stuff. A quarter of the country watched those events, and I'd be mildly surprised if 5% of the country saw Cyrus before it was made notorious by the ritual.

Public, planned denigration of pop performers serves at least four purposes: 1) garner attention to make up for ratings and sales loss vs. historic figures 2) ritualize the personal and public decline of pseudotradition 3) break wills and mold minds and 4) worship energy.

So, if these events set future pop agendas, the question is who is setting them, what are their public reasons, and what are their real ones?

Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 12:10 PM  

"*Williams* will be remembered? even though half of his movie scores were stolen ( Jaws and the Imperial March are particularly obvious ) straight out of Wagner's Ring cycle?"

/facepalm

Quoting themes is not stealing. Or do you suppose Mozart is a hack for stealing from Bach?

Blogger IM2L844 August 29, 2013 12:11 PM  

Why does reading the conversations between Nate and Sigyn always remind me of the sibling button pushing that goes on between me and my sister?

Anonymous realmatt August 29, 2013 12:11 PM  

Quality of this sort is subjective entirely.

Its alright to say it just doesn't do anything for you.

Anonymous ericcs August 29, 2013 12:12 PM  

For musical scores, repeatability of a lovely theme by the public is essential. For classical scores, not so much. Stop conflating unlike things, and stop insinuating things I never said... thank you.

Anonymous FP August 29, 2013 12:12 PM  

"Tongue, dikish hair, total gayification."

Her miming a rim job on a big chick in a bear costume kind of gives it away.

Anonymous Profit August 29, 2013 12:13 PM  

After hearing about the performance I finally broke-down and watched it... as I expected, there was nothing "shocking" about it... Other than how poor of a performer Miley is. Seriously, this girl has been performing on stage for half Her life and has no stage-presence and can't move or dance... Britney is also a terrible singer, but at least she bothered to learn how to move.

This was once again the same shit we hear every year after the VMAs and again it was all hype... Much like how the Media will still call Stern a "Shock Jock"... All hype and BS

Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 12:15 PM  

Its telling that you guys don't realize that composers quote each other and reference each other in themes literally all the time.

Anonymous Sigyn August 29, 2013 12:18 PM  

Plagiarism is a prestigious line of work, with a long and glorious tradition.

Anonymous Stilicho August 29, 2013 12:19 PM  

All white people are racist, Phoenician. Didn't you get the memo?

And man, you are totally obsessed with VD, aren't you?


His Maori boyfriend doesn't fulfill his needs anymore

Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 12:22 PM  

"Plagiarism is a prestigious line of work, with a long and glorious tradition."

its not plagiarism. Williams didn't steal from Prokofiev and more than Prokofiev stole from Mussorgsky.

Anonymous Ice Ice Baby August 29, 2013 12:25 PM  

its not plagiarism. Williams didn't steal from Prokofiev and more than Prokofiev stole from Mussorgsky.

Yo, they jus' be samplin'

Anonymous FP August 29, 2013 12:28 PM  

"His Maori boyfriend doesn't fulfill his needs anymore"

I heard Toto went to see the rains in Africa.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTQbiNvZqaY

Anonymous Salt August 29, 2013 12:38 PM  

Quoting themes is not stealing. Or do you suppose Mozart is a hack for stealing from Bach?

Most flattering for Bach.

Anonymous Sigyn August 29, 2013 12:40 PM  

its not plagiarism. Williams didn't steal from Prokofiev and more than Prokofiev stole from Mussorgsky.

That would be INCONCEIVABLE!

Anonymous Antonio Salieri August 29, 2013 12:41 PM  

Or do you suppose Mozart is a hack for stealing from Bach?

Absolutely.

Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 12:43 PM  

Also...

I note that it is now being argued that Williams is hack for ripping off Prokofiev...

I wonder when Greg Allmann and Jimmy Page will be called hacks for ripping off Willie Dixon and Robert Johnson?

Anonymous cheddarman August 29, 2013 12:45 PM  

We need to compose a theme song for our beloved Nate.

It has to be totally bad assed, with elements of classical southern rock (Allman brothers, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Molly Hatchet, etc.), blue grass/mountain music (Earl Scruggs), a Spartan victory paen , and classical music (Wagner, Tchaikovsky's 1812 overture).

sincerely

cheddarman

Blogger Guitar Man August 29, 2013 12:47 PM  

Steve Vai sucks because he was heavily influenced by Jeff Beck.

Anonymous JoeyWheels August 29, 2013 12:48 PM  

The soundtrackfor my journey thru the coming apocalypse needs to be made up of any combination of Les Pauls and super-strats running at 11 with plenty of distortion and reverb.

...or anything by by William Coulter.

Whichever comes up on the playlist first.

Anonymous Sigyn August 29, 2013 12:53 PM  

Hey, I agree. What we need is a Wagnerian opera dedicated to Nate--with a fat woman in a breastplate made of F-350 hubcaps singing all the arias.

Then end it with a 21-Glock salute.

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian, King of Aquilonia August 29, 2013 12:54 PM  

Profit: After hearing about the performance I finally broke-down and watched it... as I expected, there was nothing "shocking" about it... Other than how poor of a performer Miley is.

This is the truth.
Nothing she did was even really shocking.
All of it had been done before and better.

I love how they sit around thinking, if we just deface a crucifix it will really set the squares off.
or
If I do a pole dance on stage like a stripper, it will really set the squares off.

They are a parody of themselves, and yet they imagine themsleves to be relevant and ground breaking.

"Hi, I'm Katy Perry and I wrote a song called I kissed a girl"

Hey Katy, it had already been done:

Jill Sobule - I kissed a girl
I kissed a girl

So tired and worn out these morons....

Anonymous Sigyn August 29, 2013 12:55 PM  

Well, Conan, there IS nothing new under the sun.

Anonymous bob k. mando August 29, 2013 12:56 PM  

Nate August 29, 2013 12:22 PM
its not plagiarism.



true that.

expiry of copyright makes ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD.

Vanilla Ice stole less of 'Under Pressure' than Williams did from Wagner. i didn't even listen to the whole Ring Cycle and i know that Williams got at least a half dozen movie scores out of it.

Wagner will be remembered, he put more creativity into one ( admittedly humungous ) work than Williams put into his whole Hollywood oeuvre.

Williams? you're going to have to show me a lot more than i've seen so far, otherwise it's preferable just to listen to Wagner. which doesn't mean much. as i say, i'm not familiar with his non-Hollywood work.



FP August 29, 2013 12:28 PM
I heard Toto went to see the rains in Africa.



*urk*

now you've got me wondering if the African 'rains' have a particular color.

thanks a lot, dickhead.

Anonymous patrick kelly August 29, 2013 12:56 PM  

@GMan:"Steve Vai sucks because he was heavily influenced by Jeff Beck."

Steve is an amazing guitarist who's boots I am not worthy to shine, but I'd still rather listen to Jeff or Satch. Most of the time..... caught Jeff on a bad night on the tour with SRV ages ago......maybe the sound guy hated him, but it was not one of the better experiences for my ears.....

Blogger Guitar Man August 29, 2013 12:57 PM  

There's a common theme here. Many of us ilk are music geeks. That's alright by me.

Anonymous Sigyn August 29, 2013 1:00 PM  

now you've got me wondering if the African 'rains' have a particular color.

Purple. Duh.

Anonymous Anti-Democracy Activist August 29, 2013 1:01 PM  

Oswald Spengler noted that in rising societies, or societies at their peak, the poor try to imitate the manners of the rich. In declining societies, the rich try to imitate the manners of the poor. That there's a racial component to that in the here and now is simply an American twist on an old formula.

Someone once said that the real significance of Michael Jackson was that he was the last piece of pop culture that *everybody* liked - black and white, male and female, rich and poor, liberal and conservative, young and old. He was the last bit of truly common culture. After that, for reasons both societal (increasing social, political, and racial polarization) and technological (the rise of more specialized and on-demand media, starting in the VCR age and really taking off in the internet age), a big cultural phenomenon with his sort of universal appeal would never rise again. Vox sees Michael Jackson as the beginning of something; this theory sees him as the end of something - but both theories agree that he represents a borderline between one era and another.

Anonymous mememe August 29, 2013 1:09 PM  

@Susan,

I have a lot of sympathy for parents of young girls right now. I thought I had it bad when Madonna was popular. She is nothing compared to Miley, Gaga, and Mrs. Carter.

Why Mrs. Carter? Of all the pop princesses, she's the one who has managed to remain classy and dignified. Now granted the bar isn't that high but still I think she deserves some credit for not being slutty and druggy off stage.

Blogger Jeff August 29, 2013 1:12 PM  

This kind of racial honesty is intolerable. Have a care sir, or you'll find yourself kicked out of the club! Oh wait...

Anonymous bob k. mando August 29, 2013 1:14 PM  

ode to Sarah Jessica Parker
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5tkXgw2OMY

can't say THAT wasn't original.

Anonymous Porky August 29, 2013 1:16 PM  

hey dumbass... I saw Marsalis drop by just to play with them just a few months ago.

PHJB - Crusty old farts. They suck.
Marsalis - Prodigy who sometimes sits in with crusty old farts who suck.

Any questions, Drunky?

Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 1:17 PM  

"now you've got me wondering if the African 'rains' have a particular color."

And am I the only one that is irritated that the boys from Toto don't realize that Kilimanjaro is no where near the Serengeti?

Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 1:20 PM  

"Any questions, Drunky?"

yes. don't you think someone born in 1961 is a little old to be called a prodigy?

And don't you think is strange to make these age distinctions between men who are contemporaries? Actually I'm pretty sure the lead trumpet at Preservation Hall that night was younger than Marsalis.

Most of those "crusty old men" are professors at Tulane or local recording and symphonic artists.

Anonymous Porky August 29, 2013 1:22 PM  

And John Williams haters - if you listen to Leia's theme and the hairs on the back of your neck don't stand up then you are a soul-less monster.

Anonymous patrick kelly August 29, 2013 1:24 PM  

@Nate:"And am I the only one that is irritated that the boys from Toto don't realize that Kilimanjaro is no where near the Serengeti?"

Yeah, and just what is the translation of those Spanish lyrics in The Beatles "Sun King"??!?!?!

Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 1:25 PM  

"Hey, I agree. What we need is a Wagnerian opera dedicated to Nate--with a fat woman in a breastplate made of F-350 hubcaps singing all the arias.

Then end it with a 21-Glock salute."

No.

if I were to have a theme it would be this.

and I think you'll agree its sufficiently aryan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH6Cr2vUFf4

Blogger Markku August 29, 2013 1:26 PM  

Remember, it's

I know that I must do what's right
As sure as Kilimanjaro rises like Olympus above the Serengeti


In other words, he must do wrong.

Anonymous Daniel August 29, 2013 1:28 PM  

So tired and worn out these morons....

Tired and worn out is the objective. It is why this industry encourages its "stars" to die at 30. Of course Cyrus' thing was stupid. A million dollars went into making it stupid.

This was a very carefully handled affair that was specifically designed to have intelligent people say "Those morons."

There is money and power and important religious exercise in getting the masses to say "those morons."

It happens all the time.


Blogger Baloo August 29, 2013 1:29 PM  

Nice and terse! I've reblogged it here, with what I hope is an appropriate illustration.
http://ex-army.blogspot.com/2013/08/this-is-josephine-baker-behaving-rather.html

Anonymous Sigyn August 29, 2013 1:30 PM  

A little surprised at your link there, Nate. I was expecting "Dueling Banjos".

Anonymous Josh August 29, 2013 1:30 PM  

Once again the aspie binarism crops up amongst people who should know better.

Anonymous Porky August 29, 2013 1:32 PM  

"Don't you think someone born in 1961 is a little old to be called a prodigy?"

prodigy: A person with exceptional talents or powers.

And don't you think is strange to make these age distinctions between men who are contemporaries? Actually I'm pretty sure the lead trumpet at Preservation Hall that night was younger than Marsalis.

Most of those "crusty old men" are professors at Tulane or local recording and symphonic artists.


Nobody takes PHJB seriously in terms of musicianship. It's sloppy, campy, and unrehearsed. It's a nostalgia thing. That's why Wynton and others sit in with them. To pay homage to the roots. I've seen 'em many times. They suck. But It's always a lot of fun.



Blogger Justthisguy August 29, 2013 1:33 PM  

Someone above mentioned music and religion. That flicked me on a raw spot. My congregation is traditional-Anglican, affiliated with the Anglican Mission in the Americas, founded by Black Africans to bring the Gospel to the white heathens. My congregation is totally sound in doctrine and tradition, except for its music, which is mostly modern and mostly sucks. I get SO tired of "worship songs" and "Jesus is my boyfriend" songs. Give me a good old Welsh hymn, any time. "Guide me, O, Thou Great Jehovah...etc."

I count the house each week, and it's about 2:1 female-to-male. Methinks if we had some manly music, we'd get more men to attend.

Anonymous Anti-Democracy Activist August 29, 2013 1:35 PM  

"...the Cathedral"


"Bzzt. Fifteen yard penalty for using moldbuggery lingo."


Exactly.

Hi, secular right? This is your friends over at the traditional right. Yeah... sorry, we can't let you repurpose that word. We're actually still using it. Thanks.

Blogger Nate August 29, 2013 1:36 PM  

"A little surprised at your link there, Nate. I was expecting "Dueling Banjos"."

I like bluegrass more than the average joe. Never the less... Drums and Brass is really the key to soul. Woodwinds and Strings are trivial to me. Drums and Brass. That's what I want. The music of doom and war.

good for the soul.

Anonymous ridip August 29, 2013 1:36 PM  

Nate, but will you discuss it without realizing the Star Wars score was largely ripped off from an obscure symphony(?) named Grasshoppers and Butterflies or somesuch. I'm sure it would take me quite awhile to find the actual piece.

It's been nearly 30 years since I heard it on the local classical station and was like, that cheap bastard. It was more obvious than Vanilla Ice's heavy "sampling". I've wondered ever since how much of his music was likewise ripped-off.

Anonymous bob k. mando August 29, 2013 1:41 PM  

Nate August 29, 2013 1:17 PM
And am I the only one that is irritated that the boys from Toto don't realize that Kilimanjaro is no where near the Serengeti?



~150 miles with no intervening highlands isn't close enough? course, i don't remember seeing Kili from the Serengeti so i suppose you have a point.

Blogger Markku August 29, 2013 1:45 PM  

I'm going to totally start using that.

-Are you sure?
-As sure as Kilimanjaro rises like Olympus above the Serengeti.

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