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Sunday, October 27, 2013

Anti-Americanism in Europe

It's completely understandable why average Europeans are beginning to turn anti-American:
US intelligence has been operating a global network of 80 eavesdropping centres, including 19 European listening posts in cities such as Paris, Berlin, Rome and Madrid, the German magazine Spiegel has reported.

The new revelations, which Spiegel said were based on leaked American intelligence documents, are certain to fuel international outrage at the sweeping scale of US international surveillance operations.

Spiegel also reported that the telephone number of Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, has been a target of US surveillance since 2002, when she was leader of the opposition.

Mrs Merkel, who telephoned President Barack Obama on Wednesday to express her anger at reports that her phone had been hacked, was still under surveillance until a few weeks before the US leader Berlin in June, Spiegel said.

Even before the latest reports, Germany said that it would send a high-level delegation to the US this week to demand answer s at the White House and National Security Agency (NSA) about the reports that Mrs Merkel's phone was tapped. The team will include spy chiefs, German media reported.
I had an interesting experience this weekend that exposed how many Europeans feel about the NSA revelations. My team was playing an away game and I got a little lost trying to find a soccer field. Most villages have signs clearly marking where their main field is, but this one didn't, so I stopped at a small restaurant where several people were hanging out on the deck, smoking and drinking.

They were obviously locals, so I parked the car, got out, and asked them where the field was. I was wearing my team's jacket, and as we are known to have a few Portuguese players, one of the men asked me if I was Portuguese, most likely because of my accent. The two women both laughed at that and said: "but come on, look at him, he's clearly not Portuguese."

When I explained I was originally from America, the man made a face, held his hand up to his ear like a telephone, and said, "USA? Why are you listening to my mobile phone? Why are you listening to my phone calls?" He was joking, of course, as he promptly laughed, slapped me on the shoulder, and provided directions to the field, but it really startled me to discover that in a tiny village in the middle of nowhere, the immediate reaction to an American would be to bring up the NSA.

And the more elite Europeans aren't blind to the opportunities presented by the scandal either. I spoke to several high-level investment executives over the last few weeks, and to a man, they see the scandal as being a reason for Europe to make a serious effort to break away from the technology chains of Google, Microsoft, Oracle, Twitter, Facebook, and other American companies that have dominated the world. The larger the corporation, the more determined they are to keep the US out of their emails and servers.

As more and more revelations of tech-enabled spying come out, it wouldn't surprise me to see nations deciding to subsidize national alternatives and perhaps even eventually banning the use of American software. And why shouldn't they? How can they possibly accept the status quo? It's not inconceivable that the long-term result of using the NSA to spy on everyone through international business and the consequential shattering of trust may be a factor in the material reduction of transnational trade.

This isn't merely a diplomatic or political scandal, it is probably an economic one as well.

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123 Comments:

Anonymous kh123 October 27, 2013 4:49 AM  

But hey, our ovens are spotless as of this moment! No sending of questionable natives east for vocational training.

Anonymous Idle Spectator October 27, 2013 4:56 AM  

Vox this might be another factor that leads us back into global nationalism and away from global multiculturalism that has been building since the end of World War I. You said yourself that the executive class forms a new kind of transnational aristocracy. Get them to sour on multiculturalism and it is game-on.

Blogger Laramie Hirsch October 27, 2013 4:57 AM  

Do you know of any good popular blogs or forums out there where Americans can meet with foreigners and discuss such matters?

Blogger RandalThorn October 27, 2013 5:02 AM  

@Laramie Hirch

Well, this is one of those blogs, I am from Greece for example.

Anonymous Idle Spectator October 27, 2013 5:10 AM  

Remember back when I brought up the Italian Renaissance and the Italian City-States competing which each other? Milan, Venice, the Papal States, and Florence were all competing systems. Now imagine it on a global scale. They scoffed at me. They scoffed.

Now, the healing may begin.

Blogger Laramie Hirsch October 27, 2013 5:19 AM  

@RandalThorn

Do you look at the citizens living within the United States as we used to look at citizens in the USSR? Trapped and hostage?

I wonder this sometimes.

Anonymous Red October 27, 2013 5:19 AM  

The US tech market is going to get killed when a country passed total anti-snooping laws. Everyone will move their data and servers to it.

Anonymous VD October 27, 2013 5:30 AM  

The US tech market is going to get killed when a country passed total anti-snooping laws. Everyone will move their data and servers to it.

Yep. And the US attempts to lobby the politicians against it BECAUSE TERRER is likely to backfire. No one outside the US believes the US bullshit anymore. No one.

Tell any European who has traveled to the US recently that it is "the most free nation in the world" and they will laugh in your face. And I mean literally laugh.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus October 27, 2013 5:34 AM  

Non-white mass immigration into all white countries and only white countries plus forced integration is white genocide. Why this familiar point? Because it's life and death, and apparently it's what the Europeans still don't get.

The all-important point is not what organized Jewry makes its golem, America, do in the Middle East. The point is not how America, giving its information to Israel, spies on everyone. The point is not trust, or international trade, or the fate of Palestine or even Iran. All these things are peripheral.

The point is whether white people will lose their homelands and cease to exist. No more French, no more Italians, no more Portuguese, Germans, Spaniards, Czechs, Croats, Swedes, Danes, Welsh, English, Americans, Australians etc...

If a Greek criticizes America every day, and Israel once a week, but says "Greece for the Greeks!" is unacceptable and Golden Dawn parliamentarians must go to prison, he is no nearer to realizing what he needs to know in his heart.

If Europeans in the most obscure locations, in tiny villages in the middle of nowhere understand that America is spying in them and they resent it, but they still don't believe white people have a common interest in keeping our nations for ourselves, they are not getting any smarter.

America behaves dishonorably with the neocons in charge because the neocons don't care. If America does something useful for them, they gain, and if America does something that besmirches its honor and reputation, hey it's not them. So they use (up) American power in a purely instrumental, conscience-free way.

If people react to that by damning America (which really means: damning white America, even though the whites have lost their country), they are playing the neocons' game. That does no good.

The right response would be to have sympathy for white Americans in the same way that we have sympathy for white Zimbabweans and white South Africans*, and to struggle so that we don't all lose our countries like they have.


* Sympathy does not apply to white people who support the way things are going. They should have to live in the hells they want to inflict on other people.

Anonymous VD October 27, 2013 5:36 AM  

From a paper cited on Zerohedge:

The deeper threat that leakers such as Manning and Snowden pose is more subtle than a direct assault on U.S. national security: they undermine Washington’s ability to act hypocritically and get away with it. Their danger lies not in the new information that they reveal but in the documented confirmation they provide of what the United States is actually doing and why. When these deeds turn out to clash with the government’s public rhetoric, as they so often do, it becomes harder for U.S. allies to overlook Washington’s covert behavior and easier for U.S. adversaries to justify their own....

As the United States finds itself less able to deny the gaps between its actions and its words, it will face increasingly difficult choices — and may ultimately be compelled to start practicing what it preaches. Hypocrisy is central to Washington’s soft power — its ability to get other countries to accept the legitimacy of its actions — yet few Americans appreciate its role.


This has always been the case, but only recently has it become undeniable. It's nothing new; part of the reason I left the USA was due to the difference between what I knew to be reality and what everyone else believed to be reality. I'd rather live where there is no rule of law than where there is no rule of law but everyone erroneously believes the charade. 15 years ago, almost everyone except SB thought I was crazy. Now people are beginning to wake up to reality.

Notice that in my very first op/ed column on WND, I mentioned the NSA and the way terrorism would be used to destroy American liberty. It was obvious, and yet most "conservatives" leaped right on board the Patriot Act and every other attack on liberty.

Blogger Doom October 27, 2013 5:39 AM  

While I do like the notion, and have nothing but praise for breaking away from big US techocractic tools, I also know that a bunch of starts up are much easier to infiltrate and hack. Further, Europeans prove, once again, that they are idiots. After watching Zerocare bomb technologically, and understanding it is government (regardless of which) that is interested in their data, what is their automatic solution? Why... more government. They deserve their fate, as do many Americans. Fuck em' all. They are doing it to themselves, over and over and over again.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus October 27, 2013 5:48 AM  

Doom: "They are doing it to themselves, over and over and over again."

No they really aren't.

And if tearing down white people morally was the solution, and if the promotion of the "white suicide" meme was the solution, the world's problems should have been solved in the previous century, because we've had most of a century of mass media and academic white demoralization.

In any case, white people are our kin. Their welfare is our concern. "Fuck em' all." is never the right attitude.

Anonymous Stilicho October 27, 2013 6:39 AM  

The European governments have known about the NSA eavesdropping all along. They may try to turn the public revelations to their advantage, but their "outrage" is entirely faked. They do the same things where they can, including spying on their allies and their own citizens.

Anonymous Americana October 27, 2013 6:40 AM  

Further, Europeans prove, once again, that they are idiots.

This is true. They were foaming at the mouth for Obozo to become president of the US. Even gave him a Nobel Peace Prize. Now they are surprised? Nevermind.

Anonymous BB October 27, 2013 6:41 AM  

This might be as good as any post to ask, what settings do you other posters use under "Comment as"? I suppose the "Google Account" one is an obvious red flag, but what about the other options (LiveJournal, WordPress, etc.)?

By the way, I am commenting as "Name/URL" not for a reason, but out of simple cluelessness. I hope this does not count as derailing the post, but any answers are much appreciated.

Anonymous Stilicho October 27, 2013 6:48 AM  

They were foaming at the mouth for Obozo to become president of the US. Even gave him a Nobel Peace Prize. Now they are surprised? Nevermind.

The wages of socialism are self-inflicted wounds.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus October 27, 2013 6:53 AM  

I am commenting as "Name/URL".

Anonymous Roundtine October 27, 2013 7:00 AM  

Emerging economies may also be build a new banking system. BRIC countries are building a secure network that will be outside of U.S. control, mainly because of NSA spying, but they could easily begin doing banking transactions. If that happens, it will attract a lot of capital, if only by people looking to hedge.

Anonymous Outlaw X October 27, 2013 7:10 AM  

What difference does it make, in 90 days most of will be gone.

Anonymous Outlaw X October 27, 2013 7:28 AM  

The thing that amuses me most is that people can't see. It is time to lay down and fade from the BS and look. There is no Vox nor AJ to tell you who keeps selling his stuff. The top one percent will find themselves in such a bind and never see it coning. Like a thunderstorm that sneaks up on you they won't see until it is too late. This place is a shit hole anyway, so don't worry.

There has always been extinctions, yet the "controlled" extinction is a joke as they hide in their caves, and no I have not been drinking nor do I take drugs other than blood pressure. his will be a surprise of surprises.

Look around you and think.

For the light will pierce the darkness.

Blogger D.J. October 27, 2013 8:05 AM  

I thought that the mission and goal of US intelligence agencies is to spy abroad. In that case, of course it makes sense to be spying on (and tapping communications of) foreign citizens. After all, it's not like Europe isn't doing the same to us. At least they'd better be trying, if they aren't incompetent.

The main problems are: a) the specific type of spying/communications intercepts leaked out--you never want to disclose sources and methods--and b) similar information gathering on Americans.

So yes, I'm unhappy with NSA et. al. as well. But really, the default assumption should be that any (every?) foreign intelligence service may be spying on you.

Anonymous PA October 27, 2013 8:41 AM  

"They" gave him a Nobel Peace Prize, just like "we" are spying on them.

Blogger James Dixon October 27, 2013 8:50 AM  

> After all, it's not like Europe isn't doing the same to us

Of course they are, and to their own people. But everyone expects it from them. The US is supposed to be better than that. At one time, with a limited federal government, we were. We're not any more.

Anonymous Feh October 27, 2013 9:09 AM  

Tell any European who has traveled to the US recently that it is "the most free nation in the world" and they will laugh in your face. And I mean literally laugh.

A precisely accurate statement would be, "We are just as free as you in most respects, and in Second Amendment terms, more free, at least for now."

But I suppose the Eurotrash think that their transnational socialist elite is somehow mo' betta than the American version.

Anonymous scoobius dubious October 27, 2013 9:13 AM  

"may be a factor in the material reduction of transnational trade."

Mmm... the reduction of transnational trade.

I'll take nine, in assorted colors.


Anonymous Oh Well October 27, 2013 9:29 AM  

Of course they are, and to their own people. But everyone expects it from them. The US is supposed to be better than that. At one time, with a limited federal government, we were. We're not any more.

And when we didn't spy very effectively if at all on our own people and other countries, we got (a) thoroughly infiltrated by "friendly" governments (e.g., Britain, the USSR), and (b) hit with a foreign surprise attack (Pearl Harbor).

Anonymous LL October 27, 2013 9:34 AM  

I will say, I sort of agree with Obama on the fact that it's not like other countries don't spy on the US. The only reason this came out is because the NSA overstepped their bounds and spied on US citizens, triggering Snowden to call bullshit and going all rogue on the NSA. If you are not crass in your attempts, you won't get caught, but our current leadership and its agencies have not a single subtle bone in the group. It's all about "I won, you lost," and "get over it." I can understand foreign outrage just because overall, it should be a chess game and our crop of governing idiots have their crayons and building blocks out. Oblivious, childish, and overt.

Anonymous scoobius dubious October 27, 2013 9:40 AM  

If Europeans can become furious over America spying on them, do Americans now have reasonable grounds for being furious at China and Israel?

Anonymous MikeH October 27, 2013 9:53 AM  

It has been fairly well documented that Pearl Harbor was not a surprise attack. They knew it was coming and let it happen to get us into the war. They also knew that Japan could not attack the West Coast and yet rounded up all the Japanese citizens.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus October 27, 2013 10:05 AM  

Stilicho: "The European governments have known about the NSA eavesdropping all along. They may try to turn the public revelations to their advantage, but their "outrage" is entirely faked."

They deserve no sympathy, but their subjects do.

The issue is government of the people, for the people, by the people.

America lost it and is unlikely ever to have it again. It has government of an increasingly non-white collection of peoples, for the benefit of non-whites and particularly one influential ethnicity, by a co-opted ruling class that does not identify the people and would find any suggestion that whites should favor their fellow whites "racist". So, increasingly, if you are a white person in a white country, being spied on by America is not like being spied on by a foreign power that is nevertheless "in the family" and shares vital interests and common sentiments with you.

America has taken for granted a level of toleration. Its trangressions have been treated differently from how, say, China would have been treated for doing the same thing: as an alien power acting obnoxiously, and only that.

But the ruling class of America rejects the natural, instinctive, racial basis of that unconsious extra measure of toleration, and that same ruling class is rapidly turning America into a non-white and antiwhite power that won't get that toleration.

So in that sense, the European governments would be entitled to say: being spied on by America is not like he French and the Germans spying on each other. It is like being spied on by an alien power of a different race (or collection of races), and without any organic connection between the people and their rulers. It is an empire, and not a friendly one.

Except that the rulers of Europe are antiwhite traitors too. The Europeans also don't have government of the people, for the people, by the people. They have rule of an ever less white collection of peoples by an international ruling class. When the people talk out of turn, they get locked up.

But that only makes the rulers of Europe hypocrites. It doesn't apply to their subjects.

Anonymous Athor Pel October 27, 2013 10:16 AM  

Ever since reading The Puzzle Palace by James Bamford in 1986 I've been surprised at how blase' most Americans are about it all.

You tell them that literally every electromagnetic signal being transmitted on planet earth with useful intel in it is being hoovered up by NSA and they just look at you like you just told them you had a cheeseburger for lunch. "That's nice. Did you watch Survivor last night? OMG that [insert character name] is such a scoundrel."

If you push it even a little more and tell them that through data sharing agreements with practically every major American undersea cable data carrier corporation that most land line data is being sucked up too and their eyes glaze over . It's almost like they're trained to exclude uncomfortable information from their conscious mind.

Thing is, every government reads every other government's mail and they always have. They also read all the other important (important to government) mail as well and have always done so. It's why cryptography was developed very soon after writing was invented.

Anonymous VD October 27, 2013 10:17 AM  

A precisely accurate statement would be, "We are just as free as you in most respects, and in Second Amendment terms, more free, at least for now."

Not really true. Citizens of every other country in the world can leave and not owe a dime in tax. Citizens from most other countries can also give up their citizenships without being hassled for ten years after the fact. Americans can enter most other countries without being fingerprinted, but they can't pay cash for a car.

As an American, you probably have very little idea of how bad you have it in comparison with other, more free nations. The one thing Americans do have going for them is the Second Amendment.

Blogger James Dixon October 27, 2013 10:19 AM  

> And when we didn't spy very effectively if at all on our own people and other countries,

Oh, how precious, someone who expects our government to be competent. I'm Santa will have a very nice set of presents for you this year dear.

> I can understand foreign outrage just because overall, it should be a chess game and our crop of governing idiots have their crayons and building blocks out.

Exactly. We've gone and made the game public for all to see. None of their elites are happy, as it brings unwanted attention to their own programs.

Anonymous Roundtine October 27, 2013 10:32 AM  

NSA captured all data on all Europeans, just as they did to Americans. I don't think there'd be any legs to the story if it was the NSA spying on the German politicians and military, and maybe journalists. People expect spying on the elite, political-military complex. They expect industrial espionage. They don't expect that everything is collected. It is the same with warfare. Don't target civilians.

Anonymous Porky October 27, 2013 10:43 AM  

"USA? Why are you listening to my mobile phone? Why are you listening to my phone calls?"

Because we want to know where all the 'Bunga-Bunga' parties are!

Anonymous Porky October 27, 2013 10:45 AM  

Americans can enter most other countries without being fingerprinted, but they can't pay cash for a car.

Is this true? If I whip out 30k Euros somebody's gonna ask me if I'm an American?

Anonymous Red Comet October 27, 2013 10:59 AM  

I strongly suspect that Europe's governments had their own intelligence guys working hand-in-hand with the NSA, but after the Snowden leak made it all unpopular they were given the opportunity to distance themselves and are currently trying to do so.

Look at that Angela Merkel phone thing. Like she didn't know.

Anonymous RP-in-TX October 27, 2013 11:04 AM  

Americans can enter most other countries without being fingerprinted, but they can't pay cash for a car.

Exactly. You also can't deposit or withdraw mike than 10k without reporting it, and can be charged with a crime for doing so with 8-9k more than once. If you are found carrying large amounts of cash it can be seized. You are subject to search if you are within 100 miles of a border.

You can also have your home searched and life turned upside down via an anonymous phone call if you have kids. In some cities you can be "randomly" stopped and checked for weapons.

The list is pretty huge.

Anonymous RP-in-TX October 27, 2013 11:06 AM  

mike=more. Oops

Blogger Matamoros October 27, 2013 11:09 AM  

The Europeans have to know that their governments spy on ours, and vice versa. It is simply something that everyone does without acknowledging it.

Blogger James Dixon October 27, 2013 11:35 AM  

> ..It is simply something that everyone does without acknowledging it.

Right. But the "without acknowledging it" is important to them. That's why the government folks are so upset. Snowden made it public.

Anonymous Zartan October 27, 2013 11:42 AM  

Enjoy the Internet now folks. It's won't exist like this in another 10-20 years. China is the best example of what it will be in the future.

Brazil, and Germany are making noise about "their own internet" ICANN Is terrified.

I suggested we speak up when PRISM first broke, but was poo-poohed. "That is outside of our scope" "It only involves the United States"
Now that both are proven wrong, it's too late to try and regain credibility.

Mark me up as 2 for 2 on internet related predictions. (First was the refusal to take a stronger stand on SPAM when it first surfaced on USENET "It won't get bad, it's only one, it won't spread...")

Anonymous Zartan October 27, 2013 11:43 AM  

Enjoy the Internet now folks. It's won't exist like this in another 10-20 years. China is the best example of what it will be in the future.

Brazil, and Germany are making noise about "their own internet" ICANN Is terrified.

I suggested we speak up when PRISM first broke, but was poo-poohed. "That is outside of our scope" "It only involves the United States"
Now that both are proven wrong, it's too late to try and regain credibility.

Mark me up as 2 for 2 on internet related predictions. (First was the refusal to take a stronger stand on SPAM when it first surfaced on USENET "It won't get bad, it's only one, it won't spread...")

Blogger Doom October 27, 2013 11:46 AM  

Titus Didius Tacitus

"No they really aren't."

Yes, they are. The Europeans keep sticking it to themselves. Initially with the E.U., and then continuing to vote for more government intervention, while complaining about... well... forms of government excess. Americans are no better, at this point. While no one wants government, it seems, they all now believe they need it. So much so that they have pretty much surrendered to it. Theirs, yours, mine.

As for whites being kin, isn't everybody kin? Besides, if I have kin that is committing suicide, I am not required to join them. And if I have no means of stopping them, I will not stick around to be a party to it. Especially if their plans are to use genocide by government, knowingly or not. *cough* ACA *cough* Unfortunately I am stuck. So, I very much have a reason to be angry, and to curse them.

Right attitude? For a people who murder their own unborn children, are threatening the elderly with genocide as well at this point, and who have sold their souls for their pieces of silver? What, prey tell, IS the right attitude. There is no requirement to forgive the unrepentant. Especially those who have put a target on my back. Christ may have taken that step, once, but in a required act of sacrifice. Do you think even He will do that a second time? I think not.

Anonymous automatthew October 27, 2013 12:00 PM  

Don't be disingenuous, Doom. If everyone is kin, then no one is.

Anonymous JI October 27, 2013 12:03 PM  

Every country spies on the others. The US and China are just more successful at it than the others. The Euros you spoke with, Vox, are, as usual, jealous.

Blogger Markku October 27, 2013 12:09 PM  

As a European, I just wanted to mention that I FUCKING hate USA.

Anonymous scoobius dubious October 27, 2013 12:22 PM  

Wasted energy. What you ought to be hating is USG. Not the same thing, just as "US citizen" != "American".


Anonymous VD October 27, 2013 12:22 PM  

The Euros you spoke with, Vox, are, as usual, jealous.

No, an old restaurant owner in the middle of nowhere is not in the least bit jealous of the USA. Believe it or not, most adult Europeans are not enamored of the USA. Many of the young ones are. They usually grow out of it after visiting there; they are uniformly horrified at how fat Americans are.

Blogger Markku October 27, 2013 12:29 PM  

Wasted energy. What you ought to be hating is USG. Not the same thing, just as "US citizen" != "American".

These things are not completely isolated. You may note I said USA, and not Americans. The individual American is far enough removed from the actual object of my hate that although I have prejudice against him, I will not necessarily hate him.

However, the thought of visiting USA, for example, leads immediately to the thought of my money flowing to the economy in a way I could reasonably have prevented, and this thought fills me with disgust. So, I will only do that if it is absolutely necessary. For leisure, I would always choose another country.

Anonymous scoobius dubious October 27, 2013 12:37 PM  

"For leisure, I would always choose another country."

Well that's your own business of course. I'd simply note that, just like every country on the face of the earth, we aren't here for the leisure of foreigners. We have our own telos to attend to, just as you have yours. If you enjoy the place, great. If not, so.

About the only foreign countries on the face of the earth that I have even the remotest interest in visiting are Poland, Hungary, Australia, and Argentina. When I was in high school I wrote a story about an intergalactic delegation of aliens visiting Earth from a distant galaxy, and the consternation of international leaders when they discovered the aliens only wanted to speak to the Vietnamese.

After the aliens left, every great power had to ask the Vietnamese, "What the hell did they say to you?" To which they replied, "Oh, they asked us not to tell anyone."

Blogger Markku October 27, 2013 12:43 PM  

we aren't here for the leisure of foreigners

What I mean is, those are examples of the spectrum with regards to the degree of isolation between an individual US citizen, and USG.

OpenID cailcorishev October 27, 2013 1:01 PM  

One funny thing is: those tech companies don't consider themselves to be American companies. They think of themselves as global entities, perhaps headquartered primarily in the US, but having no allegiance to Americans as a people. They play ball with the snoops in the US government because that's the price of doing business here on their scale, not out of patriotism. That's why they see nothing wrong with importing cheap labor: they're not necessarily libertarian; they just think they're above paying attention to old-fashioned things like nationality and borders.

So Americans abroad will get blamed for the antics of companies like Facebook that don't think of themselves as American and which hire as few Americans as possible. Sounds about right.

Anonymous DonReynolds October 27, 2013 1:10 PM  

Vox, you need to be a little more honest about this one. Anti-Americanism in Europe has been commonplace in Europe for a very long time......particularly among the young, who have no memories of WWII. Anyone who has been to France has had a little taste of anti-American treatment. In Germany, Americans were suspicious. Personally, I was really surprised that the East Germans were nostalgic about the Soviets who occupied them with an iron fist. In Rostock, they had a choral group that visited occasionally......dressed in Red Army uniforms and singing popular Russian folk and military tunes. The crowd smiled and clapped.....even hooted and cheered. Incredible! But Americans would be met with suspicion and reserve. Do not even talk about anti-Americanism in the UK or Holland. My God, the spite and outright contempt for things American is a bit shocking from the young British especially. (I nearly started a bar fight in a pub on my way from York to London. Only the young waitress was polite and apologetic about the behavior of the local rednecks.)

So yes, I am sure the NSA revelations have not helped one bit but it did not cause anti-American sentiment but it may have given many Europeans one more reason to personally dislike all Americans. (We cannot blame it all on the rude American tourists either.)

Anonymous scoobius dubious October 27, 2013 1:32 PM  

"As a European, I just wanted to mention that I FUCKING hate USA."

Then for the love o' pete, will you please, please share your magic America-hating formula with Mexico, Guatemala, Pakistan, India, China, Egypt, Palestine, Vietnam, Korea, Africa, Ecuador... well, everybody, really.

Thank you.

signed,
The Americans

(not the "US citizens," mind you... the *Americans*)

Blogger Markku October 27, 2013 1:36 PM  

I agree with the implicit point; by entering the country illegally, you lose all moral high ground about hating it.

Anonymous VD October 27, 2013 1:42 PM  

Vox, you need to be a little more honest about this one.

No, you need to shut the fuck up, Don. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I have lived here a long time. The public mood towards Americans has observably changed in the last two months, and I have seen it in a number of different nationalities. For the most part, the young are the least anti-American, they often confide, in a manner that indicates that they think their attitude is somehow special, that they would very much like to visit America to see Michael Jackson or Kim Kardashian or something equally vacuous.

It seems every American who has been to Paris for two weeks or was stationed on an Army base in the 80s believes he knows what all Europeans think about everything. I remember someone trying to argue with me about the opera hall in Milano because they had been there 15 years ago... and I had been right there the previous day.

Seriously, the next time you, as an American, wish to share your knowledge about Europe or Asia or wherever, consider what you would think if someone who had been in Des Moines as long as you were in whatever place you visited, were to express a similar opinion about the USA.

Anonymous scoobius dubious October 27, 2013 1:44 PM  

"They [young Europeans] usually grow out of it after visiting there; they are uniformly horrified at how fat Americans are."

Funny, most Americans I know who visit Europe are uniformly horrified at how intellectually obese --viz., groundlessly smug-- the Europeans are.

"That's why [tech companies] see nothing wrong with importing cheap labor: they're not necessarily libertarian; they just think they're above paying attention to old-fashioned things like nationality and borders."

That may well be true; I don't work in the tech sector. But I've heard a different narrative, from multiple sources; anyone care to illustrate or discredit it?

It goes a little like this...

a) FIRST GEN: American tech execs get a brilliant idea: Hey! Let's stock up on cheap foreign programmers. It's good for our bottom line, plus we won't be called raciss.

b) 2nd GEN: H1-B foreigners arrive. They do shitty work, but eh, it's cheap, and eh, good enough.

c) 3rd GEN: H1-B foreigners are so bad, they fail into HR and project-manager positions.

d) 4th GEN: Through the magic of traditional Third World nepotism and tribalism (unlike Americans, they are loyal to their own, and also are willing to admit that they HAVE an "own") these HR directors and project managers magically decide that only their own countrymen and tribesmen are qualified for the job.

e) 5th GEN: Company fills with foreigners. Americans forced out.

d) 6th GEN: Company execs shrug and say, "Well, I guess now we're Citizens of the World"tm.

Here's a site that discusses these matters; since I don't do tech, I'm not qualified to ascertain the truth or quality of it, maybe somebody else can.


http://techinsurgent.com/

Anonymous The Americans October 27, 2013 1:45 PM  

"by entering the country illegally, you lose all moral high ground about hating it."

That's not what we meant; what we meant was, we don't want them entering it AT ALL, under any circumstances.

signed,

The Americans

Blogger Markku October 27, 2013 1:51 PM  

That's not what we meant; what we meant was, we don't want them entering it AT ALL, under any circumstances.

You may not individually want it, but the legal aliens have no reason to see it that way. Then it's simply a transaction, with neither party having any other obligation towards the other than to abide by the rules of their stay that were initially agreed upon.

If a country is stupid about the rules it has decided on, then it's their own fault, not that of the individual agreeing with them. Perhaps they might have considered just blacklisting those countries. They would have been within their rights to do so, but not to first decide on the rules, and then bitch about there being takers for them.

Anonymous Gen. Kong October 27, 2013 2:00 PM  

Red:
The US tech market is going to get killed when a country passed total anti-snooping laws. Everyone will move their data and servers to it.

Couple something like that with a reasonable IP schema (instead of the absurd 70 pma for copyrights now found in EUSSR and USSA) and you might have a real case for moving all the servers and data.

Anonymous The Americans October 27, 2013 2:12 PM  

"If a country is stupid about the rules it has decided on, then it's their own fault"

You seem to be laboring under the mistaken impression that it was the People themselves who decided these rules, rather than their malignant enemies. In fact there are plenty of rules which support the People's preferences, and guess what? The malignant enemies in power simply refuse to enforce them.

"...it is their Right, it is their Duty... [fill in the rest]

Anonymous DonReynolds October 27, 2013 2:13 PM  

Vox, you need to be a little more honest about this one.

Vox......"No, you need to shut the fuck up, Don. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I have lived here a long time. The public mood towards Americans has observably changed in the last two months, and I have seen it in a number of different nationalities."

You are totally correct, Vox. Anti-American sentiment has only happened in Europe during the past two months. I have never visited any of the cities or villages in Italy or very many places in the whole of Europe, so none of my own experiences in Europe are relevant or helpful in the least. Only an expat can have an opinion and only their experience matters. Got it.

Anonymous Gen. Kong October 27, 2013 2:13 PM  

Back to the original topic, do these proles and zeks in the EUSSR prison-of-nations actually think that the various Banksta-bitches who rule over them are somehow less intent on eavesdropping and the 24 x 7 x 365 monitoring of zek and prole chatter than their colleagues in Sodom-on-Potomac are? The UK-okrug's MI-5 was also mentioned as being active in all the spying by Snowden. The agencies of the French, German, Italian, Spanish and all the other EUSSR satrapies all march to the same tune. After all, there's a reason the USSA military is still encamped in Europe - a full two decades after the Red Army was pulled back into Russia. It has nothing to do with defending the place once known as the USA.

Anonymous Salt October 27, 2013 2:42 PM  

All the anti-US sentiment. I wish the non-US bankers, like the Swiss, would tell the US and IRS to fuck off.

Blogger Markku October 27, 2013 2:45 PM  

All the anti-US sentiment. I wish the non-US bankers, like the Swiss, would tell the US and IRS to fuck off.

Heh heh, this is going to be amusing. But I'll let Vox tell why.

Anonymous Salt October 27, 2013 2:57 PM  

Oh, I understand the dilemma Markku. Doesn't change my sentiment though.

Blogger Markku October 27, 2013 2:59 PM  

Oh, I understand the dilemma Markku.

There's no dilemma, teh funneh is just how much the Swiss are doing it.

Anonymous Porky October 27, 2013 3:16 PM  

Markku: "As a European, I just wanted to mention that I FUCKING hate USA."

As an American, I just want to say thank you for sending us that stupid fucking "What does The Fox Say" video.

Blogger Markku October 27, 2013 3:19 PM  

*high-five to Norway*

Anonymous Feh October 27, 2013 3:39 PM  

Markku: "As a European, I just wanted to mention that I FUCKING hate USA."

I really want to go to Europe now so I can tell Europeans to get fucked with all their phony outrage.

Anonymous VD October 27, 2013 3:42 PM  

Anti-American sentiment has only happened in Europe during the past two months. I have never visited any of the cities or villages in Italy or very many places in the whole of Europe, so none of my own experiences in Europe are relevant or helpful in the least.

No one said it has only happened during the last two months. The point is that it is qualitatively different than it was only three months ago, and no amount of travels in your youth would have informed you concerning that.

I've spent a lot more time in the USA than you have in Europe, and I wouldn't pretend to be up-to-date on what the social mood is there now. I've stopped doing political analysis because it is eminently clear that I no longer have a good read on things there, even though I read the major newspapers. As I said, you have absolutely no idea what is going on in Europe; do you even read a single European newspaper that isn't the Daily Mail or the Guardian regularly?

I'm not dumb enough to tell people who live in the USA what things are really like there. Why on Earth would you attempt to question what people who live in Europe tell you is happening there, even on the basis of what it used to be like?

Anonymous Porky October 27, 2013 3:47 PM  

Italian guy: "USA? Why are you listening to my mobile phone? Why are you listening to my phone calls?"

Me: "Shut up you stupid wop."

Anonymous Noah B. October 27, 2013 3:51 PM  

Tell any European who has traveled to the US recently that it is "the most free nation in the world" and they will laugh in your face. And I mean literally laugh.

As long as they live in their own little worlds and engage in only those activities that are tolerated or sanctioned, most Americans never see the tyrannical nature of that government. That's by design, of course. You really start to see the ugly side of government when you operate a business or have an encounter with the court system. And I can't understand the rationale of allowing people into your country and then treating them like criminals. It would make far more sense to put in place a near-total ban on visitors from places like Saudi Arabia and have more of an open-door policy toward friendly nations.

Blogger RandalThorn October 27, 2013 3:53 PM  

The only thing I would ask you as a Greek towards an American Vox would be why USA, a 'Christian Nation' supported neopaganism in Greece.

I'm half sarcastic with this.

Anonymous scoobius dubious October 27, 2013 4:02 PM  

Funny, I thought the general mood in Europe these days was, "Allahu Akbar!"

"I've stopped doing political analysis because it is eminently clear that I no longer have a good read on things there, even though I read the major newspapers."

Effect, meet cause.

Anonymous Noah B. October 27, 2013 4:16 PM  

Hey Porky... if you enjoyed What Does The Fox Say... you probably love Chinese food.

Anonymous Still Chops October 27, 2013 4:18 PM  

"Thing is, every government reads every other government's mail and they always have. They also read all the other important (important to government) mail as well and have always done so. It's why cryptography was developed very soon after writing was invented."

I have encrypted my email for years. The Iranians would best do this as well. Do not say, "We have 5,000 centrifuges added this month!" Instead say, " Aunt Martha was so busy and baked over 400 dozen pastries for the Mosque Fund raiser." It works so much better and you won't have to stare down at a "Bunkerbuster" careening your way.

Blogger Markku October 27, 2013 4:24 PM  

you probably love Chinese food.

When you're finished, have some rice and curry.

Anonymous scoobius dubious October 27, 2013 4:41 PM  

I just read that Lou Reed has died. Rest in peace, you lunatic.

"I'm set free to find a new illusion."

[sob]

Anonymous DonReynolds October 27, 2013 5:07 PM  

DonReynolds....."Anti-American sentiment has only happened in Europe during the past two months. I have never visited any of the cities or villages in Italy or very many places in the whole of Europe, so none of my own experiences in Europe are relevant or helpful in the least."

Vox......"No one said it has only happened during the last two months. The point is that it is qualitatively different than it was only three months ago, and no amount of travels in your youth would have informed you concerning that."

I do not doubt in the least what you have experienced and I believe very much that the NSA revelations come as much more of a shock to the typical European than it might to ordinary Americans. As I said, this is just one more reason why some Europeans may have a dislike for Americans.

Vox....."I've spent a lot more time in the USA than you have in Europe, and I wouldn't pretend to be up-to-date on what the social mood is there now. I've stopped doing political analysis because it is eminently clear that I no longer have a good read on things there, even though I read the major newspapers. As I said, you have absolutely no idea what is going on in Europe; do you even read a single European newspaper that isn't the Daily Mail or the Guardian regularly?"

I stopped posting on the Guardian after an intense argument with one of their columists, several years ago, regarding life in the USA. And I agreed with you completely in my last comment and I thought that might be enough.....but I get my best arguments by agreeing with people.

Vox....."I'm not dumb enough to tell people who live in the USA what things are really like there. Why on Earth would you attempt to question what people who live in Europe tell you is happening there, even on the basis of what it used to be like?"

Not wanting to continue with the stereotype, but some of us in the USA are not completely divorced from Europe. My last visit to Europe of six months was in 2010 when I was 56. I was hardly the youth backpacking between hostels.

In 1973 I got married to a German national from K-town (Kaiserslautern), not far from Frankfort, I met in college. Her name was Marianne and her brother is Helmut Hoffner and at the time he was in gymnasium (high school), hoping to become an engineer. Failing that, he joined the Bundeswehr instead, and I have not heard much of him since. My in-laws were all German, her mother's name was Elisabeth, and she also came to the US and became a citizen. My wife's grandparents came to visit too. Karl Hoffner was a prisoner of war of the British and hated the Brits, later retired from the German railroad (DeutschHof). He understood English when it was spoken to him but refused to speak it, so translation was necessary. (My conversational German in college was not that helpful, to be honest.) Sadly, Marianne died last February at the age of 62 after a fight with cancer.

Once again, I did not dispute your assessment of how the NSA news has left the USA with yet another negative image the past few months. I am sincerely sorry if you felt I did. Best wishes.

Anonymous VD October 27, 2013 5:36 PM  

Once again, I did not dispute your assessment of how the NSA news has left the USA with yet another negative image the past few months. I am sincerely sorry if you felt I did. Best wishes.

That's not the issue, Don. The issue is that you began your comments by telling me that I "need to be a little more honest about this one". That was bullshit. I was completely honest about it and you have been reading here long enough to know that I don't accept being told what to do or having my veracity called into question without valid evidence.

It's not that I'm angry or anything, merely that I will not give an inch on those grounds. That's all.

Anonymous Noah B. October 27, 2013 5:51 PM  

All the anti-US sentiment. I wish the non-US bankers, like the Swiss, would tell the US and IRS to fuck off.

Heh heh, this is going to be amusing. But I'll let Vox tell why.

So... are you guys just going to leave us hanging on this one??

Anonymous Anonagain October 27, 2013 5:59 PM  

Most things that are good in Europe were created hundreds of years ago by Christianity, or thousands of years ago by nature. Modern Europe without historical Europe and its natural beauty is an empty, godless, Leftist land full of empty, godless Leftists with very high opinions of themselves.

The NSA revelations are just another opportunity for EUers to continue to put on airs of superiority. Their EU is quite the bastion of freedom, transparency, and integrity.

Anonymous MendoScot October 27, 2013 6:19 PM  

This is, potentially, a game changer. If O doesn't start some serious damage control the attitude could harden into open hostility, rather than the passive hostility that has characterized post-WWII Europe.

The Euroze are not going to like being treated like a bunch of Latinamerican field hands. "Trust us, we're doing this for all our good" is exactly the wrong message to send.

Scotland's independence vote is going to go strongly against. About the only thing I see that could change that would be if it were revealed that the Sassenach were fixing the game.

It's one thing to envy a more successful friend. It's another to discover that his success was due to his stealing your ideas all along. It doesn't matter whether it's true or not, once you know he was reading what he shouldn't, the suspicion will always be there.

Anonymous . October 27, 2013 6:33 PM  

If O doesn't start some serious damage control the attitude could harden into open hostility, rather than the passive hostility that has characterized post-WWII Europe.

Your assumption is that O does not want the world (and specifically, Europe) to be hostile to the US. Not sure that is valid, for any number of reasons (evil, incompetence, take your pick).

Anonymous VD October 27, 2013 6:52 PM  

All across Europe, in Italy, Switzerland, the UK, and Spain, banks are refusing to accept American clients. A Swiss banker was recently arrested in Italy and is being extradited to the USA for helping American clients. Bankers all across Europe are being openly warned by their governments not to travel to the USA. And European investors will not invest in American companies.

And thousands of American expats have already given up their citizenships. This is all due to the law called FATCA.

OpenID cailcorishev October 27, 2013 6:53 PM  

You really start to see the ugly side of government when you operate a business or have an encounter with the court system.

Yep. I've done both in the last few years, and both are eye-opening. The state is your enemy in both cases; it's just more honest about it in the courtroom.

Anonymous MendoScot October 27, 2013 6:56 PM  

When you're finished, have some rice and curry.

But I already have some Chinese take out.

Blogger Alma Boykin October 27, 2013 6:58 PM  

I was in München this summer (among other German towns) and the cab driver was joking about writing things on postcards because the US government would not read those. As much as Bavarians still like Americans as individuals, they have cooled greatly on the US government. And that was in late June!

Anonymous Anonagain October 27, 2013 6:59 PM  

Blogger is having a feeding frenzy with the comments.

Because the Swiss bankers don't want to have to deal with the US Government.

Oh, that's right. This government's stranglehold on the control of private property would extend to any institution, anywhere that deals with US citizens' assets. That kind of totalitarian, control freak mentality is so unnatural to my thinking that it simply did not occur to me.

Anonymous VD October 27, 2013 7:06 PM  

This government's stranglehold on the control of private property would extend to any institution, anywhere that deals with US citizens' assets

The ironic thing is that the US embassies have actually been complaining to the European banks about how no one will provide services to US citizens anymore. To which complaints the banks, and the governments, are understandably unsympathetic.

The current administration is literally turning Americans into international pariahs. But most Americans won't notice unless it gets to the point that restaurants and hotels won't serve them when they travel.

Anonymous Salt October 27, 2013 7:15 PM  

The current administration is literally turning Americans into international pariahs. But most Americans won't notice unless it gets to the point that restaurants and hotels won't serve them when they travel.

American Express. Don't leave home without it.

Blogger Markku October 27, 2013 7:16 PM  

American Express. Don't leave home.

Anonymous Anonagain October 27, 2013 7:17 PM  

How is this not a two-way street? You mean that US banks don't have to deal with the EU and individual European governments regarding their EUers bank accounts? I thought EUers were taxed out the wazoo.

Anonymous Josh October 27, 2013 7:19 PM  

The current administration is literally turning Americans into international pariahs.

What do you think about the German threats to delay the upcoming free trade agreements between the USA and the EU?

Anonymous Josh October 27, 2013 7:21 PM  

You mean that US banks don't have to deal with the EU and individual European governments regarding their EUers bank accounts?

I don't think US banks are afraid that Europol is going to start arresting US bankers for helping Europeans "evade taxes."

Anonymous DonReynolds October 27, 2013 7:22 PM  

Alma Boykin....."I was in München this summer (among other German towns) and the cab driver was joking about writing things on postcards because the US government would not read those. As much as Bavarians still like Americans as individuals, they have cooled greatly on the US government. And that was in late June!"

Thank you.
I spent a week in June, three years ago, visiting good friends in Nuremburg. (It took five hours to drive there from Rostock.) They still liked Americans but were very worried about the US Government. The more liberal and younger Germans are delighted with Obama. (They would like to think he is a black version of JFK, which was annoying for visiting Americans.) We went to eat lunch at one of those open-air restaurants with long tables.....kinda like the old dairy queen in this country....and got an ear-full of what the US government is doing wrong.

Anonymous VD October 27, 2013 7:30 PM  

How is this not a two-way street?

Because the USA is the only country in the OECD that tries to tax non-resident citizens. I think Eritrea is the only other country in the world that does so.

Anonymous DonReynolds October 27, 2013 7:32 PM  

Alma Boykin......are you related to the great man, Jerry Boykin? as in William G. Boykin?

Anonymous Anonagain October 27, 2013 7:43 PM  

Because the USA is the only country in the OECD that tries to tax non-resident citizens. I think Eritrea is the only other country in the world that does so.

That's outrageous.

Speaking of taxing non-resident citizens - Vox, are you subject to the ObamaCrap penalty? I was talking to an acquaintance who plans to move to Mexico in a year or so. We were wondering if she and her husband, who I'm sure are counting on receiving their Social Security checks eventually, would be liable for this newest Leftist abomination upon the American people.

Anonymous Anonagain October 27, 2013 7:45 PM  

Considering they would not be receiving medical care in the US, they can hardly be expected to sign up for a health insurance they would not possibly be able to use.

Anonymous Anonagain October 27, 2013 8:12 PM  

The current administration is literally turning Americans into international pariahs.

Note to self: Renew your Argentine passport.

Anonymous MendoScot October 27, 2013 8:40 PM  

Note to self: Renew your Argentine passport.

Unless they're lying about her health (probable) we still have two more years of Cristina. Her faction is getting their ass kicked in the midterms, losing all the major poulation centres, but the legislative consequence won't be clear until the post-election horse trading is over.

Anonymous fritz October 27, 2013 8:54 PM  

The following is a most interesting interview. For one, it is with a European. Two, it is purportedly with a member official of the EU. The topics covered include this thread plus the previous on economics and war, if not practically everything under the sun. Mind you, it does get into the esoteric, so a warning to some here that may not want to handle this.

It is important to keep an open mind. May I suggest this as preparatory study. Once you have the correct mindset, then the following is more digestible, though you don't have to swallow it all, and understand the EU official is attempting to translate things from his chosen worldview, although most of us will not agree with it.

Revelations from an EU Official

Anonymous Anonagain October 27, 2013 8:56 PM  

Esa Puta Peronista needs to die in excruciating pain. For all their machismo, it appears Argentines haven't the balls to put a bullet in that bitches head.

Anonymous MendoScot October 27, 2013 9:47 PM  

We already have one secular martyr. One of my students published a study showing that Evita was likely lobotomized before her demise. If the public diagnosis of chronic subdural hematoma is correct, CFK has effectively been brain damaged beyond recovery, altho' the extent of that damage remains to be seen.

Dead politicians can be worse than the living.

Anonymous Anonagain October 27, 2013 10:24 PM  

One of my students published a study showing that Evita was likely lobotomized before her demise

Interesting. I've heard talk that Evita's illness was not from natural causes, but induced. Perhaps I was too hasty to judge my compadres, and they know exactly what they're doing - undetectable unnatural death takes a longer time to execute. One can hope they are lying about her condition, and she's a goner, like that other indio bruto, what's-his-fat-face from Venezuela, now likely burning in hell.

But yeah, it's better that she not be made a martyr. It's much harder to exploit a diseased rotten corpse.

Anonymous Anonagain October 27, 2013 10:47 PM  

Although, the Clintons' have perfected the death by heart attack to an art form. And that works really fast, but I wonder if there aren't certain risks in its method of delivery that could be very compromising if witnessed by anyone other than the perpetrator.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus October 27, 2013 11:48 PM  

Doom: "Unfortunately I am stuck. So, I very much have a reason to be angry, and to curse them."

Anger is reasonable. cursing your extended genetic family? Not so much. And no, everybody is not kin; that's just another way of saying there's no such thing.

Doom: "Right attitude? For a people who murder their own unborn children, are threatening the elderly with genocide as well at this point, and who have sold their souls for their pieces of silver? What, prey tell, IS the right attitude. There is no requirement to forgive the unrepentant. Especially those who have put a target on my back. Christ may have taken that step, once, but in a required act of sacrifice. Do you think even He will do that a second time? I think not."

It's inconsistent to object to policies that amount to enacted hate if your own attitude is one of bitterness congealed into hate.

The right attitude is loyalty to your side - a side that god or nature provided you with. Unless individuals are traitors and antiwhites or moral monsters, you should desire the well-being of people who are more related to you than others.

Obviously that is consistent with saying that what people need most is a change of heart. It is consistent with strong reproof. It is not consistent with singing along with the "damn whitey!" choir.

Blogger Eric October 27, 2013 11:54 PM  

Tell any European who has traveled to the US recently that it is "the most free nation in the world" and they will laugh in your face. And I mean literally laugh.

The US hasn't been the most free nation for at least forty years. It's funny to think people used to to respond to a dumb idea with "Whatever. It's a free country" in a non-ironic manner. So many things are worse today - speech codes, all the facets of PC, all the financial laws surrounding "money laundering"...

I went to Bavaria about five years ago and loved it. If there was some way for me to move there legally I'd be on the next flight.

Anonymous Noah B. October 28, 2013 1:21 AM  

"The ironic thing is that the US embassies have actually been complaining to the European banks about how no one will provide services to US citizens anymore."

Now that's funny.

Blogger JP October 28, 2013 3:31 AM  

How in the hell do you confuse Libertarian and National Socialist education policies? By being a product of public schooling, that's how.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus October 28, 2013 5:08 AM  

Another problem with saying that the spying is "just business" is that the American ruling class scolds everybody, including its subjects, with highly moralistic arguments in other contexts.

Anonymous RedJack October 28, 2013 6:50 AM  

Many of those who work for law enforcement or an alphabet soup agency are mad also, that they got caught. Free speech has been the enemy of large states since time began.

Anonymous Feh October 28, 2013 9:44 AM  

I went to Bavaria about five years ago and loved it. If there was some way for me to move there legally I'd be on the next flight.

You're really deluded if you think they don't have speech codes and political correctness in Germany.

We went to eat lunch at one of those open-air restaurants with long tables.....kinda like the old dairy queen in this country....and got an ear-full of what the US government is doing wrong.

I have been visiting Germany for 30 years, and I have heard that shit the entire time. So this is nothing new!

Heck, I used to get an earful from Germans in America about what the US government is doing wrong... in 1982. Boy oh boy they hated Reagan.

Anonymous Frank Bruni October 28, 2013 10:02 AM  

VD -- your take?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/27/opinion/sunday/bruni-italy-breaks-your-heart.html

Italy Breaks Your Heart
By FRANK BRUNI

ROME — ON my first night back in Italy, at a dinner party in Milan, I watched and listened to a successful couple in their late 40s plot their escape from a country that they love but have lost faith in. They cleared the plates, opened a laptop, and began checking out real estate in London, where one of them had been offered a transfer. The prices horrified but didn’t deter them. They have a 10-year-old son, and they fear that Italy, with 40 percent unemployment among young adults and an economy whose listlessness has come to seem the new normal, doesn’t promise a particularly bright future for him.

Two days later and about 200 miles southeast of Milan, it was an older Italian woman — early 70s, I’d wager — who sang her country’s blues. I was having lunch on a mountaintop in the Marche region, and with wild boar sausage in front of me and a castle overhead, I could have convinced myself that I was in heaven. “A museum,” she corrected me. “You’re in a museum and an organic garden.” That’s what Italy had come to, she said. Each year the country lost more of its oomph, more of its relevance.

Anonymous Hong Hu Shi October 28, 2013 10:43 AM  

You're really deluded if you think they don't have speech codes and political correctness in Germany.

Indeed. It's interesting enough to visit, but I'm a lot more comfortable with alemannic-speaking Swiss than with the occupants of the ex-Reich. The authoritarianism of the Prussians is pretty much a genetic trait throughout Germany at this point.

Also, I have a small child, and she doesn't belong to the State. So we won't live in a place that thinks she does.

Anonymous Hoots October 28, 2013 1:29 PM  

My housemates and I had a couple of German visitors to our place in Boston recently. Two 30ish women. We discussed privacy issues, about which they were clearly more informed than any of my friends. It was hard for them to believe that people who talk so often about freedom could care so little about the issue. Evidently freedom is just a word to those who have never been enslaved. Oppressive governments are still within the cultural memory of many Europeans, especially Germans. I remember visiting the death camp at Dachau and being surprised at the quantity of middle-school aged kids who had been bused there for the day. Apparently they are determined to not let the next generation forget about such atrocities. I hope Americans won't have to learn the same painful lessons.

Anonymous Hong Hu Shi October 28, 2013 3:46 PM  

I remember visiting the death camp at Dachau and being surprised at the quantity of middle-school aged kids who had been bused there for the day. Apparently they are determined to not let the next generation forget about such atrocities.

Teacher: "You see zis place? INEFFICIENT! Ovens so far away from prisoner barracks! Razor wire above fence in loose weave! ... Also, don't kill Jews, ja?"

Blogger Eric October 28, 2013 3:47 PM  

You're really deluded if you think they don't have speech codes and political correctness in Germany.

Oh, they do. I wasn't trying to say Germany is perfect. IMO, though, the German government isn't nearly as intrusive as that of the US.

Anonymous Americana October 29, 2013 2:36 AM  

As a European, I just wanted to mention that I FUCKING hate USA

You're not alone. Obama,libtards, Hamas, Mooselimbs, North Korea, Iran's leadership etc... also hate the US.

Anonymous Clark Griswold October 31, 2013 9:06 PM  

Just came back from a three-week jaunt in Europe. Talked to dozens...in pubs, restaurants, hotels, brothels. The majority despite American policies, NOT the people. There is a difference.

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