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Wednesday, October 02, 2013

The real gender gap


From AEI: The chart above shows the huge college degree gap by gender for the class of 2013. Based on Department of Education estimates, women will earn a disproportionate share of college degrees at every level of higher education this year, and overall, women in the class of 2013 will earn 140 college degrees at all levels for every 100 men. Over the next decade, the gender disparity for college degrees is expected to increase, so that by 2022, women will earn 148 college degrees for every 100 degrees earned by men, with especially huge gender imbalances for associate’s degrees (162 women for every 100 men) and master’s degrees (162 women for every 100 men).

It's actually likely to be considerably worse than projected. Associates and Masters degrees are already hitting the 60/40 female-male ratio that college admissions officers have observed tends to accelerate the process of men declining to attend colleges.  The media, with its myopic focus on the female imperative, generally reports this "dangerous ground" as being a problem due to the inability of women to be happy with the amount of male attention they are receiving, but the real problem is that most men simply don't want to be in a predominantly female environment even if it theoretically improves their chances with women.

The class of 2022 estimate assumes that the rate of change will slow, but rom 1960 to 2013, the undergraduate gender ratio increased by 1.3 women per 100 men per year, as the ratio went from 77 per 100 to 145. However, if the admissions officers are correct and young men respond to imbalanced college sex ratios en masse the way they have to individual schools and the rate of change increases by 50 percent, the class of 2022 can be expected to look more like this.

Associate's: 179
Bachelor's: 150
Master's: 168
Doctor's: 127
All Degrees: 159

If this comes to pass, we can safely expect the New York Times to be lamenting the fact that fewer women are receiving PhDs compared to the number of women graduating from college, and Jezebel publishing one angry diatribe after another about the emergence of superplayers establishing open harems on campus.

And meanwhile, the college degree will become almost entirely irrelevant to employment anywhere but government and large corporations with female-run HR departments.

Labels:

159 Comments:

Anonymous Sigyn October 02, 2013 7:50 AM  

And furthermore, with a diminishing male population on campus, this will mean an end to the old-fashioned MRS degree.

Papas, don't let your daughters grow up to be coeds.

Anonymous Paul October 02, 2013 8:11 AM  

"And meanwhile, the college degree will become almost entirely irrelevant to employment anywhere but government and large corporations with female-run HR departments."

Isn't this already pretty much the case?

The larger picture is the trends in the proportion of types of degrees being awarded, i.e. increasingly the useless variety. We'll have the most edjumacated population in history, yet be unable to maintain an advanced civilization. And of course the diagnosis will be that we need even more edjumacation.

I don't know about you, but I'm going poolside.

Blogger Unknown October 02, 2013 8:15 AM  

Women's degrees are overwhelmingly worthless, and then they move into make-work jobs. They're parasites on men. It won't last, since the host is running out of blood. Then the women will howl sexism and discrimination.

Anonymous Maximo Macaroni October 02, 2013 8:20 AM  

Already, the necessary thinking and learning is being done by men using online resources. Why should they expose themselves to idiot women's affinity groups in the guise of classes? When women with PhDs can only get jobs as baristas, if they're lucky, the college con will crash. I predict the restriction of student loan and grant money to those in courses of study that offer the possibility of an appropriate job. That will demonstrate the "fashion accessory" status of most college degrees.

Anonymous Sigyn October 02, 2013 8:21 AM  

Then the women will howl sexism and discrimination.

They already do, Bob.

The good news is that it can't go on forever. The bad news is that some parasitic women have been basically feeding equally parasitic men--and when the veins go dry, it's the parasitic men who are going to be a major problem...

Isn't it ironic that women getting "educated" eventually results in larger populations of barbarians?

Anonymous Sigyn October 02, 2013 8:24 AM  

When women with PhDs can only get jobs as baristas, if they're lucky

I won't say what degrees I have, or in what, but this happened to me. I could only get a job as a secretary.

Anonymous Lurker October 02, 2013 8:30 AM  

This trend doesn't surprise me in the least. If you pay attention to sites like 4chan where young men tend to congregate online you'll see that many of them are well aware that most college degrees are not only a waste of time, but a hindrance to them. They see their peers in their mid-twenties saddled with debt and still living with mom and dad due to having no job prospects and they realize that it's a raw deal all around. The ones who do happen to be completing a degree are getting sick and tired of the feminization of the classroom and the BS that their liberal professors make them sit through as well.

This is a bubble that will burst very soon.

Anonymous DrTorch October 02, 2013 8:33 AM  

the college degree will become almost entirely irrelevant to employment anywhere but government and large corporations with female-run HR departments

That's actually the approach we need to be taking now. Forget whether people have degree w/ all the gen studies load. If you need an employee to have college training, then simply look to see if they have what you require.

Blogger Heuristics October 02, 2013 8:34 AM  

Women are making progress! Now it has also been found out why women are shorter then men: Because of the patriarchy women get less food when growing up so their growth is stunted!

http://tinyurl.com/os5f2pl

Anonymous Daniel October 02, 2013 8:37 AM  

Let's not overlook the financing: the student debt machine has been just as instrumental in clotting the university structure with people who would not naturally be there as any overt policy to do so. All the political demands would have been hindered, had it not been for the artificial tuition explosion. As degrees have become more worthless, they have become more expensive.

Anonymous DJF October 02, 2013 8:42 AM  

Heuristics writes""""Because of the patriarchy women get less food when growing up so their growth is stunted!""'

So now mothers are the patriarchy since they are the ones who usually portion out food to the kids. Obviously the answer to this is that young women should work in the kitchen where they can grab more food.

Anonymous Stephen J. October 02, 2013 8:45 AM  

Is the breakdown by field of study available? I suspect in STEM fields this gap is either nonexistent or reversed.

Blogger tz October 02, 2013 8:46 AM  

@Daniel -very true.

And the student loan debt acts like a reverse dowry. Assuming marriage is the goal.

Perhaps we already have the brothel (as in or burkah), only in a diffuse form.

Anonymous zen0 October 02, 2013 8:48 AM  

I thought it would be interesting to also see the breakdown by race, so I looked around and found this:

FACT #2: The Racial/Ethnic Groups That Are the Least Educated Are the Fastest Growing.

Looks like Asians are going to start declining demographically more than even Whites are.

Anonymous Gaffe Pro October 02, 2013 8:59 AM  

"anywhere but government and large corporations with female-run HR departments. " <-- In other words, relevant for 95% of jobs.

Blogger tz October 02, 2013 9:00 AM  

The STEM fields are going that way too, but at least there is a threshold. And some women can handle it (adafruit.com has a lot of techettes, and they know their stuff)

But apparently even male graduates have trouble with something like the test at codility.com. Pointers, recursion, threads and mutexes often flummox the degreed.

But now with MOOC and just the info on the internet on any subject, Universities are as obsolete as the old media for the same reasons. First, they seek to restrict access, second, they filter, edit, and censor the product. But truth is now free in both senses - it merely requires some effort on your part to seek and evaluate and judge.

Anonymous Roundtine October 02, 2013 9:03 AM  

I had exactly the same thought zen0. More specifically, what is the gender gap by race? Black women vs black men must be the largest gap.

Anonymous Josh October 02, 2013 9:05 AM  

"anywhere but government and large corporations with female-run HR departments. " <-- In other words, relevant for 95% of jobs.

Untrue. You're forgetting manufacturing, retail, transportation, wholesale, and small business.

Anonymous Josh October 02, 2013 9:10 AM  

So this chart forecasts continuing high demand for cat food, batteries, ice cream, and lesbian Doritos?

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 October 02, 2013 9:24 AM  

I didn't know so many girls wanted to get raped.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus October 02, 2013 9:33 AM  

It's hard for a college education to become irrelevant while it's legal to discriminate by whether a potential employee has one, and not legal (under Disparate Impact) to use a simple IQ test or common sense.

In other words, it's about forced integration and affirmative action. And with mass immigration and differential fertility plus antiwhite domination of the legal system, those issues aren't becoming smaller.

Anonymous FUBAR Nation Ben October 02, 2013 9:35 AM  

Even degrees like accounting are becoming worthless. If you don't get recruited on campus your chances of being hired are very low due to the H1-B indentured servants that the big accounting firms bring in. You'll be lucky to get temporary tax season and auditing work.

Even STEM is not worth it anymore because there are only 2 jobs for every 3 STEM graduates. Relatively, though, STEM is still the best bet if you are going to go to college.

That doesn't leave much to talk about. Liberal Arts is mostly worthless unless you graduate top of your class at an Ivy League and build up serious connections through networking. Other than that, Liberal Arts degrees are worthless.

This is coming from someone who mastered in accounting, passed the CPAs and can't find a full time job. There's no point complaining so it's time to find other opportunities.

Anyone here work in the trades like HVAC, electrician, plumber? If so, how's the market and how do you differentiate yourself from the third world immigrants that come to do that work?

Anonymous LL October 02, 2013 9:41 AM  

And this is the wall I have just hit with my daughter. She is extremely bright, and for 3 years now, I have told her that I will help finance a degree in any of the STEM fields. She has now decided she wants to go into PR work so she's going for a Communications degree (which I refuse to pay for). The one university that had promise in terms of level of education + no debt is Yale. If she got in, they give grants and don't do student loans. But of course, they don't have communications, so she's looking at UW-Madison AND living there (about 35 min commute from my house). The housing/meal plan/etc is approximately $19K on top of tuition/books. I told her good luck with all that debt. She's lost her damn mind but you know what, I'm of the mind of not letting her come crawling home when she can't find a job and is only eating ramen and pork and beans. We had a blowout last night where I explained that I have been there, done that, and she'd be smart if she learned from me. She tried saying I didn't have a science degree (which is where I'm pushing her) and I explained that STEM stands for science, tech, engineering, and mathematics and she needs to put her shit in reverse right quick.

It has not been pretty and you know what, she's gonna have to take the hard route. It's gonna suck for her.

Anonymous dh October 02, 2013 9:42 AM  

This is very interesting, because it tracks closely with the inverse of what I hired last year for software engineers and technical project managers. Excepts from my fiscal year end report:

All Hires: 1,728 person months of work
All Hires, Actual Persons Engaged: 130 persons *

* = This is actually interesting in itself. I have some contractors I trust who I let double book themselves. I.E., have two full time contracts running at the same time. 14 of 14 are men. My criteria is that the person must not have missed any work for the last years worth of contracts without advance planning, they must meet all terms, and they must never complain to me about being tired or too busy, and they have to ask for it.


Percentage Of Applicants Passing Step 1 - Written Interview & Self-Assessment/Assertion of Skills

Women: 74 applicants, 74 accepted
Men: 240 applicants, 201 accepted


Percentage of Applications Passing Step 2 - Written, Timed, SME (Subject Matter) Test:

Women, Software Engineering: 60 tested, 2 excellent, 4 acceptable, 54 unacceptable
Women, Project Management: 14 tested, 1 excellent, 1 acceptable, 12 unacceptable

Men, Software Engineering: 188 tested, 39 excellent, 111 acceptable, 38 unacceptable
Men, Project Management: 52 tested, 20 excellent, 31 acceptable, 1 unacceptable


Percentage of Offers Accepted:

Women, Software Engineering: 6 offers, 3 accepted
Women, Project Management: 2 offers, 0 accepted

Men, Software Engineering: 80 offers, 80 accepted
Men, Project Management: 8 offers, 8 accepted


Credentials:

Men with No Degree: 45
Men with BA Degrees: 10
Men with BS Degrees, Non-Germane: 11
Men with BS Degrees, Germane: 174
Elite Degree: (Ivy, MIT, RIT, RPI, JHU, CalTech): 18

Women with No Degree: 0
Women with BA Degree: 50
Women with BS Degree, Non-Germane: 10
Women with BS Degree, Germane: 14
Elite Degree: (Ivy, MIT, RIT, RPI, JHU, CalTech): 16

Anonymous dh October 02, 2013 9:45 AM  

Anyone here work in the trades like HVAC, electrician, plumber? If so, how's the market and how do you differentiate yourself from the third world immigrants that come to do that work?

These trades are very employable for Anglo's in Florida. You will very often see a few anglo's in the middle of a team of technicians of various colors. Esp. in hospitality, where the job has to get done or affect guests.

There is an endless supply of workers, but a small supply of those who are professional, can run a team, do an acceptable job, and are dependable.

Anonymous Thales October 02, 2013 9:47 AM  

And meanwhile, the college degree will become almost entirely irrelevant to employment anywhere but government and large corporations with female-run HR departments.

Hey, if this is what it takes...

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 October 02, 2013 9:50 AM  

LL,

Make sure she knows that if she goes into debt, she cannot bankrupt it and that if she defaults on it, her wages will be garnished without a court order. The government will get its pound of flesh from her one way or another.

Anonymous Josh October 02, 2013 9:51 AM  

This is coming from someone who mastered in accounting, passed the CPAs and can't find a full time job. There's no point complaining so it's time to find other opportunities.

My advice, move somewhere with an energy boom and you'll get hired very quickly by companies that need bookkeepers. How proficient are you with excel, quick books, and other accounting software (preach tree/great plains)?

Anonymous MendoScot October 02, 2013 9:52 AM  

I recently saw a study of the effect of motivational training on the test scores of medical students. Overall, there was a significant increase in the scores, but it turned out to be exclusively due to an improvement in the men's; women scored the same regardless. The study confirms my own experience with medical students, where the men are consistently undermotivated, until they are close to graduating and switch to high gear. That's also when the women start burning out.

Blogger JartStar October 02, 2013 9:53 AM  

There is an endless supply of workers, but a small supply of those who are professional, can run a team, do an acceptable job, and are dependable.

Exactly. At companies who demand the sheepskin before even meeting with a potential employee they cut their potential pool of good workers down dramatically.

Anonymous FUBAR Nation Ben October 02, 2013 9:54 AM  

Josh I am proficient in Excel and Quickbooks. I am thinking of getting a certificate in Excel to show that I am an expert. The HR women would like that.

Anonymous dh October 02, 2013 9:56 AM  

It's hard for a college education to become irrelevant while it's legal to discriminate by whether a potential employee has one, and not legal (under Disparate Impact) to use a simple IQ test or common sense.

It's easy to avoid disparate impact if you do an acceptable job in hiring practices. I hire a lot of people (see above), but never have had a successful claim of bias or discrimination. A number of years back I had a great lawyer help me put together a hiring program that is three pronged:

1. First step is criteria based and self-assessed. I don't advertise specific jobs that are open, I advertise to invite qualified engineers to come work for me. Candidates then makes a claim, online, about what they are qualified for. This is 100% non-subjective. For example, the process asks: "Can you endure a working day that involves typing, reading, concentrating for a minimum of 7 hours each 24-hours for up to 5 consecutive days?"

2. Second is a test that is automatically tailored to the claims the application made in #1. Candidates self-rate their technical proficiency as Mastery, Proficient, Working Knowledge, Basic Knowledge, No Knowledge. Each technical subject area has an objective test that involves either writing code or multiple-choice. The code must compile and produce the required output, and that is ascertained automatically.

3. After testing, the candidate filter is applied against what the position calls for, and offers automatically made until the position is made.

There is no HR person, no in person interview until after the position, and no subjective questions until the position has been offered and accepted. We don't collect race, age, credentials or meet candidates until after the process has been completed.

Anonymous The other skeptic October 02, 2013 9:58 AM  

Diversity is our strength

That's what Mia Farrow says ... I wonder what Woody Allen says?

Anonymous AlteredFate October 02, 2013 9:58 AM  

"I didn't know so many girls wanted to get raped." -swiftfoxmark2

Saw a study linked on CH which asked women if they ever fantasized about being raped. 79% percent answered yes, which probably came as no surprise to most readers there.

Funny thing was that the first comment said, "You know what this study proves? 21% of women are liars."

Anonymous Vidad October 02, 2013 10:02 AM  

"If so, how's the market and how do you differentiate yourself from the third world immigrants that come to do that work?"

I don't work in those trades but I do work in advertising. It's very easy to stand out and start getting repeat clients if you simply do a few things.

1. Tell the truth
2. Follow through consistently
3. Show up a couple minutes early
4. Be engaging and friendly
5. Underpromise, overdeliver
6. Do a good job
7. Network, pass around cards, always be looking for the next gig
8. Own your mistakes and fix them
9. Don't over or under bid. (This takes time to figure out).

It's not that hard. One year I was low on writing work so I started working as a house painter. I'm precise and it's easy work. Rather than working by the hour for some company, I decided to start my own business. I called a couple of people from church that were real estate agents and asked if they'd recommend me to their clients. One did. Getting that first job was the hardest (I had to talk up my skills), but once the agent saw how well I'd done on that one (it also helped that the house sold quickly), he kept recommending me.

I never made less than about $25 per hour on a painting gig - and I kept pretty busy.

Remember - most people are idiots. The ones that aren't rarely do what they say they're going to. Or they're mean. Or have other problems. Many of the people I've met in the trades also act like they're doing you a huge favor just by showing up.

Screw that. Play it Dale Carnegie style and you'll always have work.

You can also "make your own luck" by spending a few hours here and there phone calling potential leads.

Anonymous Josh October 02, 2013 10:03 AM  

Josh I am proficient in Excel and Quickbooks. I am thinking of getting a certificate in Excel to show that I am an expert. The HR women would like that.

How many small, locally owned businesses are there in your city with a minimum of 20 employees or 2mm in revenue?

Also, have you talked to a staffing company specializing in accounting?

Anonymous LL October 02, 2013 10:08 AM  

@swiftfoxmark2

She is currently paralyzed with indecision because I think she was under the impression that I'd fold and give in on her wishes to go into a squishy field. When I reaffirmed that I would only help finance a STEM field about a month ago, she sort of lost her shit and she's dithering and is considering the local branch of UW a few blocks from our house to get the first 2 years in cheap. Except even then, instead of driving less than a mile from home, she wants to live in the dorms they may be building and blow any grants or scholarships on that crap. I'm having none of it and there were tears and screaming and freaking out last night. The "girl thing" is on my last damn nerve right now. Welcome to the real world. Screaming and crying ain't gonna get you far and just like me, people will judge you as emotionally unstable. Get your act together. This is not going over well, trust me.

Anonymous The other skeptic October 02, 2013 10:08 AM  

Eleanor Maccoby, in The Two Sexes: Growing Up Apart, Coming Together points out that once women come to dominate an area, men abandon it.

Pretty soon the customers for the education bubble will drop by 40% or so.

Anonymous dh October 02, 2013 10:11 AM  

LL--

Offer to support her through an unpaid internship in PR/Communications during a gap year between high school and college. A few grand in living expenses and you can get her to see how life is in this "industry".

Anonymous FUBAR Nation Ben October 02, 2013 10:13 AM  

Josh I currently am a part time bookkeeper at a small law firm.

I've done what you have suggested. The problem is that all the assignments go to the accountants that are much more experienced.

Josh, what do you do for a living?

Anonymous FUBAR Nation Ben October 02, 2013 10:15 AM  

LL, it sounds what people around here refer to as a shit test.

Anonymous DonReynolds October 02, 2013 10:16 AM  

This is not a problem, Vox.
It is normal for a subjegated people to pay their masters with women as well as gold.
Due to the one-child policy in China, there is a serious imbalance between men and women......with far more men. I expect these college-educated women in the USA to be a major export item .....mostly to China, but a significant number to India too.
.
Somewhere in China, I do not doubt that the men are being told to be patient. "Soon comrades, the egg will hatch and there will be plenty for all."

Anonymous dh October 02, 2013 10:19 AM  

Exactly. At companies who demand the sheepskin before even meeting with a potential employee they cut their potential pool of good workers down dramatically.

Yes. My absolute best employee productivity wise has a high-prestige degree and is of split Asian-American heritage. Like a stereotype.

My next half a dozen are all self-taught, self-motivated, non-degree holding hackers. And I couldn't care less they don't have a degree.

Anonymous Josh October 02, 2013 10:23 AM  

Oh hey Vidad, I remember you saying something about southern women being ugly.

Consider this exhibit A for the defense.

And yes, this is on topic because women and college.

Anonymous Josh October 02, 2013 10:25 AM  

Josh, what do you do for a living?

I help community banks grow their asset based lending portfolios.

Anonymous dh October 02, 2013 10:28 AM  

Josh--

Mostly 6's and a few 7's.

Anonymous E. PERLINE October 02, 2013 10:28 AM  

I remember when I was in business, if a job applicant had a degree, it indicated time wasted in general education, and the real training began when he or she was hired.

Targeted courses are all right, but general education is a sop to colleges by the government, which then issues licenses allowing them to practice. I'm told that dictating ground rules on how a person can make a living is unconstitutional, yet that is the law.

.

Anonymous Josh October 02, 2013 10:29 AM  

Josh I currently am a part time bookkeeper at a small law firm.

I've done what you have suggested. The problem is that all the assignments go to the accountants that are much more experienced.


That's what the staffing company said?

Also if your current employer is happy with your work, ask if they would recommend you to their business clients (if they have any). Maybe they'd be interested in offering legal and accounting services.

Anonymous Anonymous October 02, 2013 10:32 AM  

and Jezebel publishing one angry diatribe after another about the emergence of superplayers establishing open harems on campus.

Even after said bloggers / editors are seen leaving said superplayer's single room dorm, doing their best to shame walk back to their Prius.

(It has been a while since I have made the mistake of drinking coffee and reading something funny simultaneously...but i love coffee, and forget that Vox often inserts humor into his statistical analyses). That is some funny sh**.

Anonymous Jill October 02, 2013 10:33 AM  

The college in my town is predominantly male. They tried to woo more women by adding biology and psychology and business management to the techie sciences, but they only managed to narrow the gap a little. There is no reason for women to take the math requirements here for a psych degree that aren't required anywhere else. My solution, then, for narrowing the gender gap is to heighten the math requirements of all degrees, across the board. Why not? Less people will go to college in total, and a degree will be worth more. If you ask me why, say, calculus should be necessary for a humanities degree, I'll ask you why algebra is.

Anonymous Lysander Spooner October 02, 2013 10:34 AM  

Lots and lots of Grrrrrrrrls working for the Banksters and contributing to the student loan debt bubble looking for a sugar Daddy to bail them out when the math get too hard.

Anonymous Alexander October 02, 2013 10:35 AM  

I had a boss (male) once that told me the first thing he looked at on an application was previous work experience, home address, and email address. If two of the three were the local State U, he went ahead and trashed it right then.

Anonymous Golf Pro October 02, 2013 10:35 AM  

"Women's degrees are overwhelmingly worthless, and then they move into make-work jobs. They're parasites on men."

Parasites on men? Talk about an entitled view with no warrant. The implication here is that the general workplace and the workplace economy is and ought to be the domain of men. There's just no justification for this. I can understand bitterness resulting from not finding he job you want (or any job) whether man or women. But determining that the workplace is and ought to be the domain of one gender is nonsense.

Anonymous Huckleberry - est. 1977 October 02, 2013 10:38 AM  

PR work so she's going for a Communications degree

A good compromise, as you said in another comment, is for her to go to a JC to begin the needless general education coursework she's going to be forced to endure for any major. This enrollment will qualify her for any internship in marketing or PR or other communications related field. Let her both get a sense of the field and how well she's going to enjoy a salary ceiling of 55K a year at the management level, and watch her eyes open wide when, at the end of the internship, they'll offer her an entry level job for $12.50 an hour. Then tell her she can use a STEM degree to figure out how long it'll take her to repay those student loans on that payscale.
Rotten experience is the only thing likely to open her eyes.

Anonymous patrick kelly October 02, 2013 10:38 AM  

@tz:"But apparently even male graduates have trouble with something like the test at codility.com. Pointers, recursion, threads and mutexes often flummox the degreed."

FWIW I am fully employed as a code monkey often producing and delivering stuff that works, but I don't have a degree.....

Pointers - yeah, I think I got that.

Recursion - not sure I could pull an example out of my hat, but I have copied, used, understood, changed, and maintained recursive calls.

Threads - work with multi-threaded applications, async callbacks, again, not good at explaining how or what, but I can swim in the code all day.

Mutexes - ok, got me man, I'd have to look it up, but I bet it's probably something I've worked with, I just don't recall the lingo.

Anonymous dh October 02, 2013 10:40 AM  

Adding to Huck's plan, maybe she'll meet a nice boy and get married before the real debts rack up.

I have one daughter who's college fund is almost certainly going to end up as a wedding present on her 18th birthday.

Anonymous Josh October 02, 2013 10:43 AM  

OT: RIP Tom Clancy.

Anonymous Anonymous October 02, 2013 10:46 AM  

This is apocalyptic. College campuses will attract apex predators. This will of course cause the Gamma's to flee the area - possibly to technical schools or monasteries. Beta's will hang around, hoping to feed off the scraps of the hunt. The ramifications for evolutionary biology cannot be understated. With only apex predators passing on their genetic code, in 20 years we will be left with a super race of men/women who will desire to simultaneously hump everything in sight, while insisting they not be shamed for doing so.

In protest, Gammas will align themselves with lambda's, and attempt, via legislation, public protest, being man-friends in the hopes of sex, and burning their man bras to reverse the discriminatory practice of hogging all the slutty college chics. Since women will hold most positions of authority, they will be summarily executed in a live, pay per view event hosted by Ryan Seacrest.

The sun will turn to blood, cats will be living with dogs...but - our female population will have the finest education our liberal colleges will have to offer. Although they will die alone, wrinkled and bitter - they will be able to explain how to change the background on a powerpoint slide, and how to use creative animations to express their melancholy.

Anonymous FUBAR Nation Ben October 02, 2013 10:48 AM  

Those are good ideas, Josh. With regards to the staffing company that is basically what they said (they were a staffing company specializing in finance/accounting). I got a gig with them for a week with a guy who only needed me for 4 hours/week before he realized that he had no idea how disorganized he was and how hopeless the job was.

Anonymous patrick kelly October 02, 2013 10:53 AM  

@LL:" The "girl thing" is on my last damn nerve right now. Welcome to the real world. Screaming and crying ain't gonna get you far and just like me, people will judge you as emotionally unstable. Get your act together. This is not going over well, trust me."

Don't worry, she's young and has time to recover from youthful insanity. Look on the bright side, maybe some tattooed, Harley ridin' alpha will sweep her off your feet and get her out of your hair......

Anonymous VD October 02, 2013 11:07 AM  

My next half a dozen are all self-taught, self-motivated, non-degree holding hackers. And I couldn't care less they don't have a degree.

Sounds like the game industry.

LL, stay strong. That is some excellent mothering right there. Do you mind if I feature those comments on AG?

Anonymous Sigyn October 02, 2013 11:14 AM  

I've done what you have suggested. The problem is that all the assignments go to the accountants that are much more experienced.

Oh, Lord, I hate that excuse. (And it's an excuse. What they're doing is playing favorites.)

Before my first job with my staffing agency, they kept telling me, "Nope, nothing available." I finally asked why this was.

"Well...you don't have any experience."

"I see. Anyway, can you alter my dossier? Starting next month, I can work anywhere in a hundred-mile radius--just as long as there's an overpass within walking distance, because I can't make my rent next month. I'm sure your clients will understand how tough times are."

Well, shock of surprises, that very week the market shifted and suddenly, nobody needed highly-experienced temps anymore!

(As a side note, my landlord extended me two free months because I was a good little tenant who made her payments timely and didn't get in street fights with her neighbors. This was after I announced my impending homelessness to my agency, so I didn't lie.)

Anonymous Sigyn October 02, 2013 11:15 AM  

Eh, poorly phrased. Let me clarify:

"Well, shock of surprises, that very week the market shifted and suddenly, nobody needed temps to have five years of prior experience anymore!"

Anonymous Golf Pro October 02, 2013 11:16 AM  

"She is currently paralyzed with indecision because I think she was under the impression that I'd fold and give in on her wishes to go into a squishy field."

Public Relations is a growing field expected to have job growth of 24% over the next 5 years and a median salary of 85K. That's much better than most.

Anonymous Sigyn October 02, 2013 11:18 AM  

Public Relations is a growing field expected to have job growth of 24% over the next 5 years and a median salary of 85K.

Based on what assumptions?

Anonymous Huckleberry - est. 1977 October 02, 2013 11:20 AM  

Public Relations is a growing field expected to have job growth of 24% over the next 5 years and a median salary of 85K

That's a funny joke.
You should take that act on the road.

Anonymous Josh October 02, 2013 11:21 AM  

Sounds like the game industry.

You mean those new video game design degree programs aren't useful?

Anonymous Josh October 02, 2013 11:22 AM  

Public Relations is a growing field expected to have job growth of 24% over the next 5 years and a median salary of 85K. That's much better than most.

How many of those jobs are out there compared to the number of college grads with a degree in public relations, marketing, or communications?

Anonymous Golf Pro October 02, 2013 11:25 AM  

"Based on what assumptions?"

Apparently driven in part by the growth of information industry.

Anonymous patrick kelly October 02, 2013 11:25 AM  

"Based on what assumptions?"

Probably the endless Rainbow Unicorn Fart funded expansion of gov't regulation and control of everything. They'll need hire an army of more tax funded bureaucrats to put a good spin on it.

Anonymous Daniel October 02, 2013 11:26 AM  

Lay off Golf Pro. It was a typo. He didn't mean to put the "l" in "Public". Anyone could have made the same error. If I'm reading his statement correctly, I think he's talking about the career benefits of global warming.

Anonymous cheddarman October 02, 2013 11:28 AM  

"Jezebel publishing one angry diatribe after another about the emergence of superplayers establishing open harems on campus."

Nate has gone back to school?

Anonymous patrick kelly October 02, 2013 11:29 AM  

"You mean those new video game design degree programs aren't useful?"

They're useful for funneling more student loan debt money to some schools.....although the local JC has a relatively lost cost version with many instructors who actually work in the industry....

Blogger rycamor October 02, 2013 11:32 AM  

Vidad October 02, 2013 10:02 AM

"If so, how's the market and how do you differentiate yourself from the third world immigrants that come to do that work?"

I don't work in those trades but I do work in advertising. It's very easy to stand out and start getting repeat clients if you simply do a few things.

1. Tell the truth
2. Follow through consistently
3. Show up a couple minutes early
4. Be engaging and friendly
5. Underpromise, overdeliver
6. Do a good job
7. Network, pass around cards, always be looking for the next gig
8. Own your mistakes and fix them
9. Don't over or under bid. (This takes time to figure out).


Vidad speaks truth. Although on point 9, it is OK to underbid a little to get your foot in the door (be prepared to take some losses). But once you are established, it is better to overbid than underbid if you are in doubt, otherwise you risk running out of steam right in the middle of your biggest project and leaving your customer high and dry. Need more work? Bid lower. Getting more work than you can handle? BID HIGHER. I've seen so many guys turn away work and keep plugging away for lower pay than they could because they don't grasp this principle. Your work is worth what people are willing to pay for it.

Really, even in a bad economy, there is an incredible number of ways to make money. More so than there were 40 years ago. Constantly be evaluating your opportunities. Only an idiot would limit himself to one approach.

Anonymous DonReynolds October 02, 2013 11:34 AM  

Jill....."My solution, then, for narrowing the gender gap is to heighten the math requirements of all degrees, across the board."

Actually, it used to be that way. The calculus sequence used to be standard entry math for everyone. The math department did have a college algebra (often for no credit), but the only people who took it were those who needed remedial preparation for college work or those pre-med types who needed an easy A or the art history majors. There simply were no math courses below calculus. Since then, there has been an explosion of math courses at a very low level. Generally speaking, this is because of the lack of math preparation on the secondary level.

Anonymous FUBAR Nation Ben October 02, 2013 11:35 AM  

Sigyn, it's a bunch of garbage. The temp agency tests you to make sure you are competent so you would think that experience wouldn't matter if you know what you are doing.

This website just shows what a joke the job market has become for lawyers: http://www.shitlawjobs.com/

Anonymous VD October 02, 2013 11:37 AM  

You mean those new video game design degree programs aren't useful?

They're a joke. I'm actually considering doing some paid lectures after talking to some graduates of such programs. The people teaching are former low-level people, some of whom have no actual industry experience.

Anonymous MendoScot October 02, 2013 11:43 AM  

Bit of a ramble here, but it is related. The links, however, are in Spanish.

There's a phenomenon in Argentina known as the "ni-ni"s, 15-24 year olds who neither study nor work. They now represent 13% of that age group, a figure that has been increasing progressively over the last ten years. A nationally prominent politician recently caused a kerfuffle by saying that this was a good thing.

The interesting aspect is his argument. He points out that ten years ago, they were mostly young males. Now, they are 85% female and over half of them are women with children under 5 who "..are where they should be, taking care of their children...".

It will be interesting to see how this story develops. At the moment it's being played as a gaffe, but the articles are focusing on the data rather than faux outrage.

Anonymous CLK October 02, 2013 11:44 AM  

"Elite Degree: (Ivy, MIT, RIT, RPI, JHU, CalTech): 18"

Wow .. I didn't know I was on the elite degree list... trust me .. there's little that is elite about it... No body 5 years after you graduate ever asks you where you went to school and if you try to say "hey I'm right because I went to an elite school you have already lost the argument"

Anonymous Josh October 02, 2013 11:44 AM  

The people teaching are former low-level people, some of whom have no actual industry experience.

Isn't that the case for almost every program? Those who can't do, teach?

Anonymous dh October 02, 2013 11:50 AM  

Wow .. I didn't know I was on the elite degree list... trust me .. there's little that is elite about it... No body 5 years after you graduate ever asks you where you went to school and if you try to say "hey I'm right because I went to an elite school you have already lost the argument"

Yup. I don't even collect college degree information until after I have hired the person.

Anonymous dh October 02, 2013 11:52 AM  

This website just shows what a joke the job market has become for lawyers: http://www.shitlawjobs.com

The legal world is undergoing a huge contraction. Namely, there are companies that are legal services orientated that do quick, fast, accurate, inexpensive high-volume legal work that large firms used to do. And these people are cheap as in 10% the cost of a big name law firm.

It is like cataclysm inside the legal world. Enrollment is down, wages are down, partnerships are down - they are under seige.

There is no reason why legal services esp. for businesses should be expensive and a huge line item. None at all. And technology is about to destroy the margin on the racket.

Anonymous FP October 02, 2013 11:52 AM  

I read on a blog he other day a brief bio of John Moses Browning. The man was a genius, his designs are still in use 100+ years later and it was all without an engineering degree.

Anonymous CLK October 02, 2013 11:56 AM  

I think that I would argue that there are less non college opportunities for women than men..

Men tend to be the majority of the industrial trades (HVAC, plumbing, painting etc) and that does not require college.

The majority of female "trades jobs" are technician level and require an AS degree (medical techs, CT, LPN - these even a 2 year RN now). Women that don't go to college are stuck with waitress and sales jobs. Even the secretary jobs require some college skills nowadays. The degrees that women get in college are not STEM - at least not the hard core STEM --- (there are still women biology majors) -- and specifically not in the areas of engineering and physics -- they seem to be (1) education (2) communications and (3) sociology/psychology with some (4) english and (5) art majors filled in.

Anonymous Anonymous October 02, 2013 11:57 AM  

Yup. I don't even collect college degree information until after I have hired the person.

In my old career I was a VP of Operations for a small contract therapy company I did a lot of hiring. When I was perusing resume's, if they put their grade point, I shredded it. Their school was also irrelevant, as long as they were licensed according to the state regs.

Blogger Pulp Herb October 02, 2013 11:59 AM  

large corporations with female-run HR departments.

Even there it will only get you so far...I'm at a F500 company and never talked to HR during the process...I sent my resume to a potential coworker who solicited it even though we didn't know each other (through a professional listserv when I expressed an interest in positions in a given city), got my initial questionnaire and programming test from the group's office manager, and interviewed only with potential coworkers and boss.

HR finally talked to me after I got the job offer and accepted to have me fill out paperwork.

Why do I think I had a different experience? Simple, my group can directly show how it contributes a positive value to the corporate bottom line daily, monthly, and annually. Our management shields us from a lot of normal HR/corp BS (I've experienced worse at much smaller companies) and gets away with it because incoming cash flow.

Anonymous Josh October 02, 2013 12:04 PM  

It is like cataclysm inside the legal world. Enrollment is down, wages are down, partnerships are down - they are under seige.

Couldn't happen to a nicer group of people.

I am exceedingly thankful that I never went to law school.

Anonymous CLK October 02, 2013 12:05 PM  

"I read on a blog he other day a brief bio of John Moses Browning. The man was a genius, his designs are still in use 100+ years later and it was all without an engineering degree."

That's because it was taught as a apprenticed skill until the early 1900's --- Browning was an apprentice since age 7. The first engineering schools were military engineering (in the US was West Point) and most engineering discipline schools started 1820- 1860 sort of time frame.

Anonymous dh October 02, 2013 12:05 PM  

Why do I think I had a different experience? Simple, my group can directly show how it contributes a positive value to the corporate bottom line daily, monthly, and annually. Our management shields us from a lot of normal HR/corp BS (I've experienced worse at much smaller companies) and gets away with it because incoming cash flow.

Yeah, the best of the best get exceptions to the HR nazi's, but they nazi's are organizing against IT and the productive classes.


Anonymous Sigyn October 02, 2013 12:12 PM  

I think that I would argue that there are less non college opportunities for women than men..

There used to be more, but then no-fault divorce came along and destabilized that career track.

Blogger Pulp Herb October 02, 2013 12:13 PM  

She's lost her damn mind but you know what, I'm of the mind of not letting her come crawling home when she can't find a job and is only eating ramen and pork and beans.

Don't handicap your children by making their lives easy. -- RAH

Anonymous Sigyn October 02, 2013 12:13 PM  

That's because it was taught as a apprenticed skill until the early 1900's --- Browning was an apprentice since age 7.

It seems to have been a pretty good working model, if you ask me.

Anonymous Maureen October 02, 2013 12:17 PM  

LL -- I realize a job in PR is probably not your preference for your daughter, but if she's serious in pursuing, i STRONGLY advise against getting a "communications" or "PR" degree. I work for a top agency, and we rarely hire candidates with those kinds of degrees. We'd hire someone from Yale regardless of major - I ran our internship and junior recruitment program for years. We hire people who can think and write - the '"PR" skills needed, we teach them. It's not rocket science, and a 4 year degree in "PR" is absurd.

Granted, my firm does semi-substantive public affairs/crisis management/strat com consulting, not Lizzy Grubman-type nonsense. But still...she is MUCH better off going to a top tier school and majoring in anything at all, rather than getting a "communications" degree.

She should talk to some people in the field...I'd be happy to answer any questions she may have.

And now I've outed myself as a lowly PR hack in my first-ever post on this site. Oh, the shame.

Anonymous Sigyn October 02, 2013 12:17 PM  

This website just shows what a joke the job market has become for lawyers: http://www.shitlawjobs.com

Yikes! I was making more than most of those jobs! They should really go to an apprenticeship model and shut down the law schools, if that's how they're going to be.

Anonymous Huckleberry - est. 1977 October 02, 2013 12:20 PM  

And now I've outed myself as a lowly PR hack in my first-ever post on this site. Oh, the shame

Could be worse.
You could be a Pro at Golf...

Anonymous Golf Pro October 02, 2013 12:30 PM  

Yeah, that making a living outdoors playing a game you love sucks.

Anonymous smack October 02, 2013 12:34 PM  

@FUBAR Nation Ben:

Start your own accounting/bookkeeping/consulting business. If you have some references, you should be able to find work. You will need to have a computer with QuickBooks/Excel on it, but there's no reason why you can't become self-employed. One thing to stress is the savings for businesses if you are a 1099 contractor rather than an employee. Most small businesses have no idea how much they can save by contracting the work out rather than hiring you as their employee. And Schedule C can be a godsend for someone who is used to being an employee. Deduct everything you can...

Anonymous Huckleberry - est. 1977 October 02, 2013 12:35 PM  

But Maureen brings up a salient point - in many circumstances it doesn't necessarily matter what you get your degree(s) in. Work experience, adaptability and skill set matter far more.

Anonymous smack October 02, 2013 12:35 PM  

@ Golf Pro: the shame doesn't come from playing golf, it comes from your inane comments on this blog...

Anonymous Pinakeli October 02, 2013 12:39 PM  

I've noticed that some jobs can't be filled anyway, if you go by the rec.

"7 years experience with Windows 8" is one that I see a lot.

But I found out the breakdown:
2 years experience added if you are a veteran.
3 years experience added if you are a woman.
4 years experience added if you are a minority.

In other words, discrimination is alive and well, just hidden under the diversity label.


That's why I went to work for a start up after I had enough of Lockheed.

Anonymous LL October 02, 2013 12:55 PM  

@VD, you're welcome to my comments. They're public. Your wife has been in on the details for the last couple of months and has been helping me keep a stiff upper lip. Heh

Look, my brother-in-law is PR for a record label in Nashville. What I pointed out to my child is that if we lived in NYC, LA, Nashville, hell, even Austin, she'd be better set up. She tried arguing that she'd have to leave to find a job regardless in whichever field she chose, and I disagreed. I pointed out that if she moves before she gets a job, she better be looking at first & last months rent saved up, moving costs, basic life start up stuff like condiments in the fridge and cabinets, dishes, cooking utensils, on and on, and that's even BEFORE she secures a position. I don't want her thinking she can just move in with family. She needs to have a game plan for life besides having the "adults" carry her until she achieves her dream.

One of you suggested an internship and I'm going to email my brother-in-law and see if they have one at his record label. She's already done an internship with a representative in the WI legislature this past summer and she's familiar with the concept.

I have great hopes for her because she's not normally uber-hysterical and pretty level-headed. She knows she wants to get married and have kids and live happily ever after. I'd like her to start on that life with little to no debt load, a fall back position with a solid STEM education, and a nice young man willing to put a ring on her finger, but she's gonna have to get a few bumps along the way. That's just life and growing up. We'll see how it works out.

Anonymous Sigyn October 02, 2013 12:57 PM  

Yeah, that making a living outdoors playing a game you love sucks.

So, Tad, did the HR consulting business go downhill for you?

Anonymous map October 02, 2013 1:06 PM  

@LL

Whatever you do, DO NOT teach your daughter any life lessons. America is not a nation of boundless opportunity anymore. She will not learn anything from experience because she will not have the same opportunities.

Go to Yale and explain to her the PR opportunities she will have having graduated from that school.

Anonymous map October 02, 2013 1:10 PM  

@LL:

" I don't want her thinking she can just move in with family. She needs to have a game plan for life besides having the "adults" carry her until she achieves her dream."

This is all middle class pride at its worst. Do you have any idea how many closeted trust-funders she could be competing against? Yes, you carry her as best as you can so that she can make her best possible showing out in the real world.

Anonymous LL October 02, 2013 1:17 PM  

@map, we currently have a whole generation of young adults who think they can get useless college degrees, live with mom and dad as they "explore their options," and finally move out some time slightly short of 30 years old. I absolutely refuse to raise a "child" like that. If you make shitty choices there are shitty results, no matter how much you believe in rainbows and unicorns. I have always held my children accountable, just as life does. Legally, she can vote, take out debt, and tell me to screw off once she turns 18. Conversely, legally, I have no responsibility to financially support her in a consequence-free life.

Anonymous Sigyn October 02, 2013 1:18 PM  

Map seems to be advocating the "escalation" principle--which has resulted in people being children into their mid-twenties and will eventually end with everyone being beholden to the Nanny State.

Remember, kids, you can't accomplish anything on your own! You didn't build that! It takes a village!

Anonymous Huckleberry - est. 1977 October 02, 2013 1:30 PM  

Go to Yale

One company I used to work for hired a graphic designer who got her degree from Yale.
Shocked to find that Yale even had a graphic design program, the design supervisor asked the hiring manager -- who already hired the girl -- for the girl's portfolio. Stunned by the question, the hiring manager said she never saw it, in fact the designer never brought one in. The hiring supervisor asked why the girl was hired.
The hiring manager explained it was a chance to have someone from Yale on our payroll.
Turns out she was a terrible designer and was gone in a month.
Yale.

Anonymous Concerned Rabbit Hunter October 02, 2013 1:34 PM  

"4 years experience added if you are a minority.

In other words, discrimination is alive and well, just hidden under the diversity label."

I recently found out that in Silicon Valley they have a LOFT STEM program. LOFT mean Latinos On the Fast Track.

Probably more like LOFTTN.

Anonymous hausfrau October 02, 2013 1:45 PM  

LL
How does she reconcile getting over $80,000 in debt on a 4 year degree with acquiring a husband and kids? Has she bought the feminist delusion that she can have it all? Does she really want a full time, life long career or does she want to work part time or even stay home at some point? Does she know she loses these options the more debt she piles up? Very sad. I imagine you've gone over this in depth with her but I'm just curious. I hope she opts for a gap year to think about her options.

Anonymous LL October 02, 2013 1:54 PM  

hausfrau, she is not a feminist. I think she keeps hoping in her heart that I will pay for things and that she'll get enough in scholarships and grants to get through it all the way she wants. I crunched the numbers using the Yale calculator, and I would spring less than $5K/yr if she got in because of our income level and their grant program. That includes everything including room and board and her required 10 hrs min working for the university at something like $12/hr min wage. That was my biggest hope when we got the information. She'd go into an Ivy and come out debt free with a biology or chemistry degree. But now she's gone all flaky on me. She understands the financial ramifications, she's just currently (and stubbornly) clinging to the hope that a magical Santa Claus will send her where she wants to go and allow her to get whatever degree she wants. She's getting a very real lesson in cost-benefit analysis, although she's not aware of the concept. She only grasps that she is going to have to sacrifice somewhere somehow, but refuses to see it clearly. At this moment, she is gripped by hormones and she'll calm down in a few days. Then we can have a better discussion. ;-)

Anonymous Josh October 02, 2013 1:57 PM  

I'm sorry, but if she gets into Yale and can go there for free, and she wants to go to a state school instead to get a degree in communications, she needs to be spanked.

Anonymous Anonymous October 02, 2013 2:24 PM  

> And furthermore, with a diminishing male population on campus, this will mean an end to the old-fashioned MRS degree.

Oh, I don't know about that. What I've noticed the last few years is that the rather cute (7-8ish) interns who 20 years ago when I was an intern would be mostly in solid relationships with some decently higher SMV fellow from their college are now virtually all single and looking desperately enough for higher status mates that they don't consider that 20 year age gap to be any serious issue; It's only the genuine 9+ HB types that seem to be able to latch on to an age-appropriate higher SMV relationship these days.

Works for me.

Blogger Pulp Herb October 02, 2013 3:03 PM  

I've noticed that some jobs can't be filled anyway, if you go by the rec.

"7 years experience with Windows 8" is one that I see a lot.

But I found out the breakdown:
2 years experience added if you are a veteran.
3 years experience added if you are a woman.
4 years experience added if you are a minority.

In other words, discrimination is alive and well, just hidden under the diversity label.


That explains those 7+ years of Java experience I saw in ads in Boston/Providence/Hartford papers in 1997.

Anonymous Sigyn October 02, 2013 3:03 PM  

Works for me.

Though for the 6-and-below girls, not so much.

But hey, who gives an app about them, eh? They can ride the carousel!

Anonymous Sigyn October 02, 2013 3:05 PM  

That explains those 7+ years of Java experience I saw in ads in Boston/Providence/Hartford papers in 1997.

Anyone with an advanced degree has 7+ years of experience with java. Close, personal experience.

Blogger tz October 02, 2013 3:06 PM  

For those new here, I don't have a degree either, though I had some college (I was heavy into math and physics for about 2 years, then embedded systems happened and I could do electronics and code).

Blogger LibertyPortraits October 02, 2013 3:07 PM  

So much capital is going to be wasted on repaying inflated student loans. I feel bad for my generation, the last generation, who will be too indebted to raise families, and too poor to invest in the proper equipment to defend themselves against the coming horde of immigrants.

Anonymous dh October 02, 2013 3:27 PM  

LP-- yes, this is classic mal-investment rent seeking. At least if the loans were made with risk to the lenders (default), it would be better. But as it is now, private lenders make loans, that are government backed, at rate-locked, non-refinanceable, profit guaranteed terms.

Anonymous Anonymous October 02, 2013 3:42 PM  

> But hey, who gives an app about them, eh? They can ride the carousel!

Well, they can do that, or they can figure out that they have to marry down, because math.

That's kinda the point of this post, isn't it now? 10 years ago I was like Vox and cared enough to make a point about the dysgenics of it all. These days, I'm pretty much an enjoy the decline type, it's working a lot better for me than most, so hey.

Anonymous Sigyn October 02, 2013 3:48 PM  

Well, they can do that, or they can figure out that they have to marry down, because math.

I'm no opponent to "marrying down", but you've gotta be kidding me. If nobody wants the 7-8 range, who wants the 6-and-under?

Besides, obviously, total weirdos like my husband.

I'm pretty much an enjoy the decline type

Well, yeah, that describes about 98% of humanity anyway.

Anonymous Daniel October 02, 2013 3:49 PM  

But as it is now, private lenders make loans, that are government backed, at rate-locked, non-refinanceable, profit guaranteed terms.

Not any more. Government cut out the middle man as a part of Obamacare. They make the loans now. Private sector accounts for less than 15% of student debt (i.e. credit cards), and that's dwindling away as old private/govt-backed loans are paid off. All (barring a miniscule handful of odd outliers) new student loans since 2009 or so are Direct Loans.

Anonymous Josh October 02, 2013 3:52 PM  

Besides, obviously, total weirdos like my husband.

Do you happen to look like Sarah Jessica Parker?

Anonymous Loki Sjalfsainn October 02, 2013 4:09 PM  

Besides, obviously, total weirdos like my husband.

/sigh/

Do you happen to look like Sarah Jessica Parker?

No.

Anonymous Anonymous October 02, 2013 4:13 PM  

> If nobody wants the 7-8 range, who wants the 6-and-under?

Oh, I very much doubt that "wants" from a male perspective has changed appreciably in the last couple decades.

But we were talking *relationships*, which given the numbers above and women's general unwillingness to consider the less credentialled as a possible relationship, necessarily means that competition for relationships is shooting through the roof, and from what I'm observing personally the usual reaction so far is to compromise age and fitness requirements for possible mates, not credentials or income requirements.

Works for me!

Anonymous Sigyn October 02, 2013 4:16 PM  

Why does everyone want to make this about me? It's not about me. I was just saying that some men are fetishists, but not enough to make up for the legions of us who only have fetish-appeal.

So, yeah.

Anonymous Loki Sjalfsainn October 02, 2013 4:20 PM  

Works for me!

In a world of decay, the maggots feast. Ever it has been thus.

Now, where were we? Ah yes, the imbalance of the sexes at university. I believe my consort was pointing out that men being in short supply makes of no effect the argument that one sends one's daughter to college to find a mate, as is oft cited.

Anonymous Loki Sjalfsainn October 02, 2013 4:23 PM  

Woman, need I remind you that you are the consort of a king?

Anonymous Sigyn October 02, 2013 4:24 PM  

Woman, need I remind you that you are the consort of a king?

...Yes?

Anonymous Loki Sjalfsainn October 02, 2013 4:26 PM  

Damn me, I walked into that one.

Until tomorrow, Ilk.

Anonymous WaterBoy October 02, 2013 4:28 PM  

FUBAR Nation Ben: "I am proficient in Excel and Quickbooks. I am thinking of getting a certificate in Excel to show that I am an expert."

If you haven't already, spend a little time learning to combine those two programs; it's a useful advantage to be able to export QB data to Excel, then write custom macros to manipulate the data in ways that you simply cannot do from within QB.

I booked several hours doing this for one of my clients...especially when I had to go back every couple of years to tweak them when QB would change their report formats with each new release.

Anonymous Anonymous October 02, 2013 4:34 PM  

> men being in short supply makes of no effect the argument that one sends one's daughter to college to find a mate,

I believe you've missed my entire point, which is that they're still doing that -- they're just looking to find that mate among us maggots, not among their credentialled peers.

The only way out of this conundrum I see is that as a group women need to get over their fixation on educational credentials as a qualifier, and that'll remain true no matter how good it makes you feel to have a hissy fit at those of us who benefit from said fixation.

Blogger Chris Ritchie October 02, 2013 4:41 PM  

I think people misunderstood Map's comment above. I was just talking about this with a friend at lunch.

Look at the lower class immigrants. When they open a business, they open it together, as a family. Dad, a couple of brothers. One Aunt. And all the children. People work together to build something.

Now look at the higher classes. You're telling me that rich people tell their children "Sink or Swim Johnny!" No. They line up opportunities for them. They get them into Yale. They get them internships at the best companies. Then, if there is a family business, the children are brought into it. Perfect example: Fellowes Office Supplies. They are in the 3rd generation of family leadership now.

I'm not saying you are 100% wrong in giving conditions to your support. You are right. Families at both ends of the economic extreme make the same demands of their children. They are told that they will go down the recommended path or will face the world alone. And in some cases that's ok too.

But I agree with Map that we in the Middle Class have been duped by one too many Horatio Alger stories. Does everyone really believe Mark Zuckerberg built Facebook alone? I see a kid who went to exclusive prep schools available only to the rich. He had a private tutor from a young age. He went to Harvard. I'm betting he wasn't going on a minority scholarship. The truth is that his family gave him the best possible start that they could.

I believe the public school system has worked to destroy family unity so that family help is harder to come by. And of course the Estate tax is actively against the accumulation of wealth preventing most from the middle class from making it better for their children.

So, don't be too adamant in putting her out. There is no shame in bridging the gap for your daughter. It's done all the time.

Anonymous smack October 02, 2013 4:58 PM  

She knows she wants to get married and have kids and live happily ever after.

Have you considered the notion that she doesn't want to go to college at all? She's acting up for a reason, and I don't think it's because she doesn't want to go to Yale...

a fall back position with a solid STEM education, and a nice young man willing to put a ring on her finger

Hrm...have you considered the fact that here 'fall back position' may have the effect of a nice young man not being willing to put a ring on her finger? Especially since she doesn't need a man to take care of her financially...

Anonymous hausfrau October 02, 2013 5:11 PM  

LL
Sorry, didn't mean to say your daughter was a feminist. It just appears that Yale for virtually free vs. $80000 in debt should be a no brainer. Good luck. I can't imagine she wouldn't see sense when the hissy fit subsides.

Anonymous LL October 02, 2013 5:48 PM  

@CR106, this has nothing to do with Horatio Alger, and everything to do with the opportunity costs and actual costs of attaining an education, and also the generally calculated odds of getting a job with that education. There is a huge difference between bridging the gap for my daughter if she cannot find a job with a hard science degree (regardless of whether she attends an Ivy or state public university) and me carrying her ass because she chose #1 on this list.

@smack, yes, I have considered the fact she may not want to go to college. Then again, she has worked non-stop for 3, going into her 4th year of college prep work classes (ie almost all AP & honors courses, holding a 3.95 gpa) to little effect and would most likely indicate mental disease to uphold those standards with no end goal.

And if you follow Susan Walsh on Hooking Up Smart, you will note that her target audience and the studies she posts seem to indicate that girls in college would like monogamy and marriage. My daughter is this type. I would be greatly surprised if she did not meet a young man in her sophomore or junior year, date exclusively, and marry a year or two after graduation. Despite the manosphere cynics out there, these types of women and relationships do exist. My cousin, married last weekend, is exactly in this. He met his girl in college, he has worked the last few years as an accountant, they got married.

hausfrau, I have no clue what her malfunction is right now, other than hormones, fear of moving far away (which she has stated repeatedly), and perhaps a touch of not wanting to leave her boyfriend although he is encouraging her to take every opportunity she has. All I know is, it is going to be a Battle Royale through college application season until decision time after acceptance letters. Hell, for all we know, she may only get into UW-Madison. Won't that be a kick in the pants?

Blogger Bob Loblaw October 02, 2013 6:21 PM  

The degrees that women get in college are not STEM - at least not the hard core STEM --- (there are still women biology majors)...

The exception there is medicine. Women seem to have an interest in the subject and go on to make excellent doctors.

Blogger tz October 02, 2013 6:46 PM  

If nobody wants the 7-8 range, who wants the 6-and-under?

The problem is for "Game", it depends on physical attraction, but a woman who is a 6 could have an advantage if she isn't a whiny bitch, and can give a credible indication she won't blow up the marriage after a few years when the right daytime TV episode comes on.

Anonymous VD October 02, 2013 6:54 PM  

It's just fear of the real world, LL. She's ripped up the kiddy world of school, and she's smart enough to know that the real world is harder. Don't blame her for freaking out, but on the other hand, lock her in her room until she finishes the Yale application if necessary.

Anonymous LL October 02, 2013 7:13 PM  

@VD, trust me, I'm not going to let that chance go. She may not get accepted, but that won't be for lack of trying, even if I have to use a cattle prod. What she does after she turns 18 and hits her "legal adult status" remains to be seen. In the end though, I will have done all I thought best to get her upon the right track and in later years, if she comes to me with recriminations, I shall point her to this blog post and the one up at Alpha Game and tell her to read it and weep. And then I'll probably give her a cookie and a hug and wish her luck in the big bad world out there. Ha!

And the funny thing about AG, one person said something about being a realistic feminist. I'm the ultimate feminist in the sense that if you want to be treated as an adult, male or female, you will be treated as such, good and bad. No one goes through this life consequence-free and the sooner you learn that lesson, the better off you are. Tears and wailing don't work on me. My daughter has even said, "I wish you were softer" in the sense that when she comes crying to me about some tragic teenage girl drama, I point out where she screwed up, or where she let another girl or boy pull a fast one on her, how to correct it for the next time, and then I slap her on the ass and send her back into the game like a football coach. This generally causes some consternation on her part.

Anonymous Dc October 02, 2013 7:14 PM  

LL,

For another angle, have you thought of private Christian colleges? Pricey some can be, but if you shop around you might find a good deal and usually morally safer than secular universities. Also I think some offer degrees in home economics. A pretty good degree to back up a potential homemaker.

Blogger papabear October 02, 2013 7:23 PM  

"Go STEM because those engineers and scientists and doctors need wives too!"

Anonymous LL October 02, 2013 7:37 PM  

Dc, the thought of Yale was not even in my mind until we got a letter explaining how they do financial aid via grants. Few colleges do that. Right now, it's all holding pattern until my woman-child comes to her senses on a major. I told Spacebunny that I was truly surprised she didn't try to game me by saying she'd go science for the first 2 years to get me to pay for at least half her education, but then again, SB reminded me my child is not nearly as corrupt as I am. Which made me laugh. It's true. She would probably thrive at a nice Christian college. Two of my sisters went to Lipscomb (which is Church of Christ, but feeds into Vanderbilt quite nicely for graduate school), so I'm aware of them. It's just the financing that's got me in a bind.

Blogger Michael October 02, 2013 9:03 PM  

Just a few thoughts. After 9/11 my son enlisted in the Air Guard. The contract was that the guard would pay for 100% tuition at any state run university. I am sure there are similar offers there too. Heck, you could even be a cook and get a signing bonus. If she were to pick some more technical blue collar skill (like communications equipment, computer equipment) these have longer tech schools and have higher bonus. With a little luck (and that $5,000 support from Dad), she could get out of school debt free. Oh yea, the work for is drug free (the military tests) and has better pickings. The vast majority of my son's squadron was going to college (about 80%). Much better odds of meeting Mr Right. These are a conservative group of young men who would make good fathers and husbands.

Blogger Michael October 02, 2013 9:11 PM  

Just a few thoughts. After 9/11 my son enlisted in the Air Guard. The contract was that the guard would pay for 100% tuition at any state run university. I am sure there are similar offers there too. Heck, you could even be a cook and get a signing bonus. If she were to pick some more technical blue collar skill (like communications equipment, computer equipment) these have longer tech schools and have higher bonus. With a little luck (and that $5,000 support from Dad), she could get out of school debt free. Oh yea, the work for is drug free (the military tests) and has better pickings. The vast majority of my son's squadron was going to college (about 80%). Much better odds of meeting Mr Right. These are a conservative group of young men who would make good fathers and husbands.

Anonymous Carlotta October 02, 2013 9:18 PM  

@ LL
Did PR professionally and never finished my degrees in criminal justice and nursing ( wanted to go into forensic nursing). Worked professionally as an editor and journalist. You dont get hired with a writing degree. You either can write or cant. I got hired because I could write knowledgeably from my background. And I have dyslexia lol. Tell her if she wants to write to intern at any PR firm and save the money. Sheesh. Everyone blogs now and there are hardly any writing jobs compared to ten years ago.

My parents made me pay most of my way. No debt. Be strong. She will want to be a doctor next week. Pray she meets her husband soon.

Anonymous Carlotta October 02, 2013 9:44 PM  

Any chance the guy she is interested in is going to the college she wants to go to?

Blogger LL October 02, 2013 10:29 PM  

And this is my daughter...she came in and wanted to hug it out, then calmly said she will listen to me, she understands my concerns, she will think about the science degree, she just would prefer to work with people, not counting pills as a pharmacist (her last idea for major). She was calm and respectful. We talked about options and she agreed she will apply to Yale "like she really, really wants to go there" and we will come to a decision if she gets accepted. I know there will be moments later, but she honestly is a very good kids. One of those kids you don't think exist in real life.

Anonymous Anonymous October 03, 2013 3:03 AM  

A bit of a comment on the greater variation in male intelligence compared to female intelligence. While it is true that females vary less in intelligence than males, so that a female genius with an IQ of 140 (or whatever you consider genius level) is much rarer than a male genius, they do exist, and once human intelligence reaches a certain point, people with that intelligence become so rare, that they could be considered the equivalent of 'red diamonds'. By which I mean, that according to a book about diamonds I read once, red diamonds are so rare (there were only 11 known red diamonds in the world at the time the book was written) that it was not known what chemical (or combination of chemicals) caused a diamond to be red, because finding out involved a test that would destroy a red diamond, and they were too rare and valuable to consider destroying.

In a human sense, once someone's IQ reaches a certain point, it probably becomes so rare and potentially valuable, that it would be extremely foolish to destroy it or refuse to utilize it, on grounds of the person's gender. Or for any other equally nonsensical reason that is unlikely to ever offer the same potential benefit.

Anonymous Loki Sjalfsainn October 03, 2013 6:08 AM  

and that'll remain true no matter how good it makes you feel to have a hissy fit

A hissy fit? You, a self-proclaimed troll, do not understand that one may express contempt without anger?

I find it a hilarious quality of your kind that those who are most self-satisfied are the ones with least cause to be so--though I suppose it gets you through the few years of your mayfly existence.

Anonymous Loki Sjalfsainn October 03, 2013 6:13 AM  

In a human sense, once someone's IQ reaches a certain point, it probably becomes so rare and potentially valuable, that it would be extremely foolish to destroy it or refuse to utilize it, on grounds of the person's gender.

Did you live as long as a diamond, it would be folly indeed.

Blogger Pulp Herb October 03, 2013 9:56 AM  

Anyone with an advanced degree has 7+ years of experience with java. Close, personal experience.

Not in 1997. In 1997 not even the original Oak team (which became Java) at Sun had seven years experience. The original versions were developed in 1991 and released to the public in 1995. I doubt anyone was leaving Sun for a job advertised in the Hartford Courant and those of us in Connecticut had two years at best, none in production environments.

Blogger Kristophr October 03, 2013 11:32 AM  

John Moses Browning's apprenticeship success track is still available today, for the most part, you just have to get a GED first. The best gunsmith school in the country is a two year community college program in Trinidad Colorado. get their two year degree, and then find an overworked gunsmith to hire you.

A pittance compared to getting a useless PhD.

Anonymous Anonymous October 03, 2013 11:40 AM  

> A hissy fit? You, a self-proclaimed troll, do not understand that one may express contempt without anger?

Indeed, but contempt can generally be turned into the much funnier anger quite readily, particularly on this topic of the interesting ways female hypergamy is evolving to cope with the numerical disparities Vox relates. Believe you me, "maggots" doesn't even twitch the dial compared to real life reactions...

> I suppose it gets you through the few years of your mayfly existence.

Oh, I also derive some minor pleasure from watching those like Vox fight the good fight and remind me of when I used to give a damn, otherwise I wouldn't bother showing up here. But as far as personal effort, nope, wallowing in self-absorbed nihilism for the couple decades of mayfly existence remaining suits me just fine.

Anonymous Ted October 03, 2013 8:19 PM  

"A pittance compared to getting a useless PhD."

So, how does someone else's goal of earning their doctorate impact you???

Blogger Galt-in-Da-Box October 06, 2013 11:35 PM  

And those femin$tazi-held degrees in Floral Arrangement and Green Chinese Pottery will qualify them for a job as greeter at Wal-Mart in the real world.
Who fucking cares?

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Anonymous Anonymous November 03, 2013 10:31 PM  

Perhaps the impending assymetry in student loan anti-dowries will prove to be a equilibrium-seeking force against unrestrained hypergamy?

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