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Thursday, November 21, 2013

Destroying the working class

A capitalist betrays class unconsciousness in writing to Zerohedge on behalf of his employees about the way Obamacare is transforming the working class into the subservient class:
My company, based in California, employs 600. We used to insure about 250 of our employees. The rest opted out. The company paid 50% of their premiums for about $750,000/yr. Under obamacare, none can opt out without penalty, and the rates are double or triple, depending upon the plan. Our 750k for 250 employees is going to $2 million per year for 600 employees.

By mandate, we have to pay 91.5% of the premium or more up from the 50% we used to pay. Our employees share of the premium goes from $7/week for the cheapest plan to $30/week. 95% of my employees were on that plan.  Remember, we used to pay 50% now we pay 91.5% and the premiums still go up that much!!

The  cheapest plan now has a deductible of $6350! Before it was $150. Employees making $9 to $10/hr, have to pay $30/wk and have a $6350 deductible!!! What!!!! They can't afford that to be sure. Obamacare will kill their propensity to seek medical care. More money for less care? How does that help them?

Here is the craziest part. Employees who qualify for mediCAL (the California version of Medicare), which is most of my employees, will automatically be enrolled in the Federal SNAP program. They cannot opt out. They cannot decline. They will be automatically enrolled in the Federal food stamp program based upon their level of Obamacare qualification. Remember, these people work full time, living in a small town in California. They are not seeking assistance.
People constantly seem to be surprised to learn that politicians lie. I'm a little surprised to have to so often remind grown men and women that sometimes people say things that are not true. And they say things that are not true on a regular basis.

The American people were told that they had to bail out the banks to prevent the economy from collapsing. That wasn't true. They were told that the various measures to stabilize the housing market were to help mortgaged homeowners. That wasn't true. They were told that the Affordable Care Act was to help the uninsured and make insurance more affordable. That wasn't true.

Are you starting to notice a pattern here? The reason provided by politicians to justify their actions are seldom related to the real motivations. This is particularly true when the reason given is "helping people". While it is true certain people are being helped, it is almost never the people who are identified as the official reason.

Labels:

71 Comments:

Anonymous Toby Temple November 21, 2013 3:55 AM  

Well, Vox, they are learning ....

the hard way.

Anonymous Difster November 21, 2013 4:08 AM  

And this is just the beginning.

Anonymous Toby Temple November 21, 2013 4:22 AM  

Should be a wakeup call.

More and more Americans are realizing that the Obamacare was a mistake.

When enough Americans realize this it should be worth watching the effect.

Blogger Some dude November 21, 2013 4:41 AM  

Is it just me, or does anyone else feel physical symptoms of distress when reading about these atrocities? I don't even live in the States anymore, and I feel like throwing things across the room when I hear about this abuse.

Anonymous Jake-the-Rake November 21, 2013 4:47 AM  

We believe the best people in the world work right here. And we believe you could be one of them. You’ve got enthusiasm, responsibility and drive. We’ve got flexible schedules, benefits and jobs that can turn into satisfying careers. It’s a perfect match.

It’s time you got the chance to learn and grow.

It’s time for your enthusiasm and determination to take you places

We believe in giving back to those who gave to us.

From the "Career" page of McDonalds...

Why do I mention it? Because you will eventually see that in this magnificent age of marketing and merchandizing (this marvelous Information Age - in which approx. 80 to 85% of all the email in the world is spam - a "conservative estimate" that lying and misleading and half-truthing is THE way of life.

Entonces, ergo, therefore, Obama is really only an expression of the culture.

And you're luvin it!

Anonymous p-dawg November 21, 2013 4:49 AM  

There's a reason why, "I'm from the Government, and I'm here to help," is one of the scariest phrases in the English language. As for learning, well, experience is a great teacher. A godawfully harsh way to learn, but arguably the most effective.

Anonymous Roundtine November 21, 2013 4:50 AM  

Can you use SNAP to buy ammo at Wal-Mart? I like me some free range venison.

Anonymous PhillipGeorge(c)2013 November 21, 2013 5:13 AM  

The entire house of cards is built on "doctor knows best"!
Given the same logic it is a miracle plants can grow without botanists or wild animals live without veterinarians. For that matter how does gravity work without physicists, or children learn to talk without trained teachers in attendance.

Human rights is an oxymoron.

Medical Science gave the world transorbital frontal lobotomies, Universities issued their degrees, politicians, lawyers watched, approved, endorsed. And
'so it goes', on and on it goes. Just bait and switch. It's a new program now.

Follow the thread, how could you ever decide to do anything without a politician to tell you?

Orwell saw it all coming.

Anonymous p-dawg November 21, 2013 5:15 AM  

"Orwell saw it all coming."

That's because his family was directly involved in making it happen.

Anonymous zen0 November 21, 2013 6:25 AM  

Is the lying getting more egregious, or does it just seem so because internet.?

Anonymous VryeDenker November 21, 2013 6:29 AM  

Is the lying getting more egregious, or does it just seem so because internet.?

That's a difficult one. I guess the internet makes it easier to expose, but I think there's also an amount of over-confidence involved too. I think they really are under the impression that they are promoting the "noble lie".

Blogger buzzardist November 21, 2013 6:30 AM  

This explains, in part, why Obama is so desperate to hold onto Obamacare, even if it destroys health care in America, without any amendments or input from Republicans. Not that I particularly trust the GOP to do what actually needs to be done with this law--they are just as interested as a party in expansive government power as the Democrats are--but the GOP might well remove the provisions automatically enrolling people in federal benefits unrelated to health care.

The Democrats saw the demographic voting patterns showing that those on federal assistance are vastly more likely to vote Democrat. They also saw the numbers on the people who live at or near poverty levels, but do not claim assistance. Those people don't side with Democrats. Solution? Take the party's first unchecked majority in recent memory and use it to create a monster of a social program from which nobody can escape. Refuse to participate, and you're fined...err...taxed. Sign up for the one service required by law, and the system automatically enrolls you in every other government benefit available.

Create dependency. This is the modern liberal motto. Liberals do not want citizens; they are seeking to create serfs.

Blogger buzzardist November 21, 2013 6:35 AM  

Can you use SNAP to buy ammo at Wal-Mart? I like me some free range venison.

Interesting thought. Doubtful, although since ETC cards have been used in far-flung places like cruise-ship casinos, it's entirely possible.

If you tell them that you're planning to eat the lead yourself, they're almost certain to let you. Anything that would serve to turn you and your family into imbeciles served the liberal agenda perfectly.

Anonymous Stilicho November 21, 2013 6:41 AM  

It will be interesting to see the numbers on Obamacare with respect to how many people eventually get free (or nearly free) health care versus the numbers who get bent over with much higher premiums and deductibles. "Hi, I'm Barack Obama and I'm here to give you free health care... here's your bill."

It will also be interesting to see the effect that these high deductibles have on the way Americans use health care and think of health insurance. Aside from the high premiums due to mandated (and often unwanted or unneeded) coverages, this is almost a throwback to the old "major medical" policies that were for catastrophic event coverage only. You know, actual insurance versus "health care plans." The law of unintended consequences could rear its head and Democrats could find that their pet socialist project du jour actually causes more Americans to think of themselves as paying for their own health care. They may even start to think that they don't need government involved in health care at all...

Anonymous Stilicho November 21, 2013 6:44 AM  

Can you use SNAP to buy ammo at Wal-Mart? I like me some free range venison.

Interesting thought. Doubtful, although since ETC cards have been used in far-flung places like cruise-ship casinos, it's entirely possible.


Money is fungible. SNAP frees up a food budget to be used on ammo (or, more commonly, crack, meth, etc.).

Anonymous Anonymous November 21, 2013 6:46 AM  

Lies:

Comprehensive Immigration Reform will help and protect hard-working American families.
A Common Core Curriculum will guarantee a world-class education for all American children.


Ego:

We need to spend eleventy-six trillion today to end this depression now!.

Evil:
The First/Second/Nth Amendment was for an outdated age...

I am not sure where "The War On Terror" , or John McCain's "My Friends" fits.

Me? I would like to go 4 years without ever having to consider the damn Fed Gov Leviathan.

Anonymous Four-Eyed Mo November 21, 2013 6:52 AM  

Obama promised to let individuals keep their plans, if they like them. When that lie was caught out last week, he offered to let them keep them for a year (delay the individual mandate). Except he only controls federal government Obama-care outlets. Minnesota opted to create its own. Governor Dayton (Democrat) refused to consider the one-year delay, we're going socialist full-speed ahead. My only surprise is he didn't denounce Obama as a right-winger for being insufficiently enthusiastic about the timetable.

Blogger Glen Filthie November 21, 2013 8:24 AM  

There were no lies here though, Vox. Hell's bells, Stretch Pelosi PUBLICLY told everyone that the bill would have to be passed to see what was in it. You have a president who refused to produce a birth certificate until he was literally forced to do so - and that has serious questions about it.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that Obutthole and his crew of liberal scum are what they are. Their power base, however, have no excuses. They work and play in the middle class, they know how economies work and they know there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. These assholes went into the Obamacare scam hoping they would get free care and that you and I would have to pay for it. They would do it again too - in a heart beat.

America's political left is culturally and intellectually ill. There is only one way to cure stupidity like that - and rest assured that Darwin and Murphy will be involved and that it will hurt.

What of it? America needs a cull anyways, and denying health care to morons is an excellent way of removing them from the gene pool.

Anonymous Josh November 21, 2013 8:27 AM  

What of it? America needs a cull anyways, and denying health care to morons is an excellent way of removing them from the gene pool.

Given the various laws on the books, you can't deny health care to anyone. So you're only going to start denying it to morons when you start denying it to everyone. Which is eventually what's going to happen with Obamacare.

Anonymous Josh November 21, 2013 8:45 AM  

It will also be interesting to see the effect that these high deductibles have on the way Americans use health care and think of health insurance.

People will only go to the doctor when something is very wrong, and then they'll most likely go to the ER. Which is the direct opposite of what Obamacare was supposed to do.

Anonymous Anonymous November 21, 2013 8:47 AM  

Is the lying getting more egregious, or does it just seem so because internet.?

I think it's getting worse, for two reasons. First, liberals feel like they won with Obama's election -- twice -- so they have a right to enact whatever policies they like. After all, the only people who oppose them are evil racists.

Second, the more aware ones may fear that there's a limited window of opportunity here, while they have a president whose skin color makes him immune to most criticism. If they don't get their amnesty to provide 10-20 million new 70% Democrat voters, and the economy continues to go downhill, it's just possible they could lose in 2016. But even if they win with Hillary or some white guy, they won't be able to push things as easily as they can now. That president won't be untouchable, and their control of the Narrative is weakening. If there's ever going to be a time when they can enact their most grandiose plans, this is it.

Anonymous Josh November 21, 2013 8:51 AM  

Second, the more aware ones may fear that there's a limited window of opportunity here, while they have a president whose skin color makes him immune to most criticism.

That window closed with the 2010 midterm elections. There's absolutely no reason for the House to go along with any new Democratic proposals. Especially on amnesty.

Anonymous JCB November 21, 2013 8:56 AM  

A commenter at ZH made a good point that these high deductibles could have devastating effects on leisure industries like skiing. It makes sense - a lot of people aren't going to take the risk of a broken bone or torn ACL if $6K + is coming out of your pocket first. Youth sports leagues could be devastated. Hell, are you even going to let your kid play on the jungle gym knowing the bill you might face. Cynics might say this is by design.

Anonymous Geezers Butler November 21, 2013 8:59 AM  

I'm working on a team to figure out how to implement ObamaCare (so we can provide guidance to our clients) and it is going to be an administrative nightmare for large companies, esp. those with hourly , part-time and seasonal employees. When someone is rehired, or takes leave of absence or anytime someone doesn't work a normal yearly schedule, it requires individual scrutiny, analysis and over-rides. And that mostly has to be done manually. There are so many grey areas and what-ifs and opportunities for mistakes its mind boggling. And the legal ramifications and penalties for mistakes are going to create a new industry of lawyers, consultants and government bean counters to make it work, all at the expense of doing business, all so that about 32 million Americans get health coverage? It was a huge bait and switch. The 1% once again promise the bottom 25% something at the expense of the middle class.

Anonymous Anonymous November 21, 2013 9:00 AM  

There's absolutely no reason for the House to go along with any new Democratic proposals. Especially on amnesty.

True, and yet they keep trying to find a reason to do so, and the media will keep pushing (or providing cover) for them to do it.

Blogger IM2L844 November 21, 2013 9:04 AM  

People will only go to the doctor when something is very wrong

Except those who are subsidized to the effective level of free healthcare. They will run to the doctor or ER every time they get a runny nose which is also antithetical to an efficient system of healthcare and collateral to your point.

Anonymous Sarah Palin's Husky November 21, 2013 9:21 AM  

"Employees who qualify for mediCAL (the California version of Medicare), which is most of my employees, will automatically be enrolled in the Federal SNAP program."

Free food = more FAT people = death panels = less poor fat people, because they died. The problemssolves itself...

Anonymous E. PERLINE November 21, 2013 9:30 AM  

Racism is when you are too nice to someone because of his race. It means race is uppermost in your mind and supplants all other factors..

That being said, it's getting near the time of talking impeachment. But there is a little way to go yet.

Anonymous Josh November 21, 2013 9:42 AM  

Except those who are subsidized to the effective level of free healthcare. They will run to the doctor or ER every time they get a runny nose which is also antithetical to an efficient system of healthcare and collateral to your point.

Almost all of those people are already being covered by medicaid or medicare

Anonymous bw November 21, 2013 9:43 AM  

Government, and the people behind it, are abusers. Americans have been trained to love their abusers - nay, call them "servants" and "heroes".
Identifying with lying, murderous, thieving abusers? Stockholm Syndrome. Believe the political process is benevolent and legitimate? Abused woman.

It hasn't been for you for a century - but it certainly has been about you.

Anonymous Brother Thomas November 21, 2013 9:44 AM  

>>> "Obamacare will kill their propensity to seek medical care. More money for less care? How does that help them?"


Gosh... what a surprise. It's as if the program was meant to lead to a lower life expectancy and population level among the lower classes.

Blogger The Anti-Gnostic November 21, 2013 9:44 AM  

More premiums for less coverage, across the board, and deductibles that are mulitples higher than what healthy individuals consume in medical care in a given year.

Essentially, the healthy and productive are being charged out the wazoo to cover the costs for the unhealthy and unproductive: obese, chronic diabetics, smokers, addicts, etc. The US is still full of a lot of productive people. Some will decide to join the ranks of the unproductive. Others will go off the books. I know one individual who made a good living as a mechanic/welder in the drag racing business; never paid a penny in taxes.

If there's any bright side to this, the lifestyle of the corporate drone seeing his paycheck sucked dry will increasingly be seen as a sucker's bet. More people will have to figure out how to live off the grid, and the money to haul their SUV's after their favorite college football team won't be there. All that tribal energy people dissipate in the bread and circuses will be redirected. Our elites really are headed into Hubris territory, last stop before collapse.

Anonymous Athor Pel November 21, 2013 9:51 AM  

" Glen Filthie November 21, 2013 8:24 AM
....
"America's political left is culturally and intellectually ill. There is only one way to cure stupidity like that - and rest assured that Darwin and Murphy will be involved and that it will hurt."

What of it? America needs a cull anyways, and denying health care to morons is an excellent way of removing them from the gene pool."




What of it?

Well, the kind of karmic justice being asked for by this nation's collective actions does not discriminate between the guilty and innocent. It will be too large and have too much inertia. It will roll over everything and everybody.

I'm convinced they, the useful idiots and many of those controlling them, do not understand the magnitude of the forces they are messing with. What they are doing unawares is creating monsters, monsters that will manifest, monsters that will wreak havoc on an almost unimaginable scale. And sadly some of those self appointed masters want the monsters to manifest. They think the monsters will be on their side and if they are supremely self delusional they will continue to think that right up to when they get eaten.

Once the monster is summoned he needs not his summoner anymore. All are meat before the monster.

Anonymous Josh November 21, 2013 9:56 AM  

True, and yet they keep trying to find a reason to do so, and the media will keep pushing (or providing cover) for them to do it.

Next year is an election year, and any Republican who votes for amnesty is going to get prison raped in the primaries. Media cover ain't gonna matter.

Blogger Nate November 21, 2013 9:59 AM  

- The Anti-Gnostic

Look we get it. You were a giant dorky nerd in highschool and you sucked at sports your whole life.

No reason to rub it in everyone's face.

Blogger IM2L844 November 21, 2013 10:03 AM  

Almost all of those people are already being covered by medicaid or medicare

ObamaCare GREATLY expands the eligibility for as well as the benefits of Medicaid.

Anonymous Josh November 21, 2013 10:04 AM  

Look we get it. You were a giant dorky nerd in highschool and you sucked at sports your whole life.

No reason to rub it in everyone's face.


SHAMING LANGUAGE!

Blogger The Anti-Gnostic November 21, 2013 10:25 AM  

Nope. Played high school football, albeit not very well. Then played amateur rugby thru college. Ran and lifted weights all my life. Now, at age 50, I just lift weights. Not smart enough to be a nerd.

Anonymous Huckleberry - est. 1977 November 21, 2013 10:35 AM  

What happens when large swaths of people and organizations withdraw tacit consent to participate in society?
The Irish Goodbye of Western Civilization.
They'll make agorists of us yet...

Anonymous Will Best November 21, 2013 10:42 AM  

The math in the letter fails spectacularly.

First, going from 750k per 250 to 2mil for 600, is an increase of $333 per employe or roughly 10.5%. Which is not double or triple on a per employee basis

Next, the company for its $2 million is now paying 91.5% of the premiums instead of 50%. So the total insurance cost per employee is dropping from $6,000 to roughly $3,600.

Now we get to the weekly premium problem. A plan covering 50% at 750k is $6,000 total with out of pocket to the employee as $3,000. That is $57 per week. So the new worker premiums are substantially less per week.

Now if the $7/wk number actually works with his stated $2 million, or enough not to quibble over the rounding. But the $30/wk number cited would mean the cost to the company was upwards of $10 million not $2 million.

I have no idea about California, but in IL. $3600 a year premium broken 92/8 employer/employee buys you some pretty solid insurance for $2 million on 600 employees. Probably somewhere along the lines of 80/20 in 60/40 out, $30 co-pay, $1k deductible, $3k annual cap.

Now the killer in this is family, which he doesn't even address. Because while companies don't have to cover spouses, they do have to cover children, and he doesn't even address that issue.

Letters a fake.

Anonymous BluntForceTrauma November 21, 2013 10:47 AM  

Life imitates art. Or is it the other way around? Anyway, I've been watching "House of Cards" on Netflix and, while it shows us things we already knew, it's telling to see Machiavellianism dramatized so effectively.

Yes, politicians lie. A nasty business. Somewhere it is written: "For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice."

Blogger hga November 21, 2013 11:29 AM  

Extending the points Stilicho, Josh and JCB about how Obamacare will change behavior, a lot of these plans have very restrictive doctor and hospital networks. So if you get unnecessarily injured, you may not be able to get adequate care. Or timely care, which matters a great deal for a variety of injuries.

Blogger LibertyPortraits November 21, 2013 11:30 AM  

Oh well, people had their chance with Ron Paul and blew it. I can't find it in myself to have any feeling for those bellyaching about it.

Anonymous TWS November 21, 2013 11:57 AM  

Ron Paul was open borders. Crossing the border won't magically make them vote anything but democrat. Don't fool yourself since motor voter they vote.

So we get four years of Ron Paul and a lifetime of the most leftist guy you can imagine. Come to think of it a temporary four year break from leftism would have been nice.

Anonymous Noah B. November 21, 2013 12:07 PM  

Now I'm hearing lifelong Democrats around here whining that their insurance costs are going up and/or they're having their policies cancelled, and all I can do is laugh at them. Especially since despite all this, they still haven't learned anything. They still think this catastrophe was somehow unforeseeable, despite the fact that millions of us did see it coming and tried to stop it.

Anonymous Ostar November 21, 2013 12:09 PM  

Obamacare from inception was designed to turn health care into a single payer system (read socialized medicine), and costs were intended to skyrocket for many people to subsidize other classes. The architects have admitted so in public (quotes available upon request).

The politicians lied, yes. But it's that the media let them repeat their falsehoods without challenge or verification. Many people here I'm sure knew the lies for lies years ago. But the great mass of people did not, because the media years ago become another arm of the Democratic party. (The media has always dominated by the "elite", but only recently in America has it been so dominated by the particular elitism of the Democratic party).

Blogger LP 999/Eliza November 21, 2013 12:14 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Josh November 21, 2013 12:14 PM  

Ron Paul was open borders.

Can you prove that from either his 2008 or 2012 campaign platforms? Or from his voting record?

Blogger LP 999/Eliza November 21, 2013 12:15 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger IM2L844 November 21, 2013 12:33 PM  

The politicians lied, yes. But it's that the media let them repeat their falsehoods without challenge or verification.

The GOP really needs to take a page from the DNC playbook and get much better at just making shit up and shamelessly pandering to demographics.

Anonymous TWS November 21, 2013 12:43 PM  

Josh,
I'm willing to be convinced Ron Paul was against open borders. However, he consistently worked against a border fence, requiring employers to verify worker status and id for legal immigrants. His solution was to end requirements to states to provide the services to illegals. Thus illegals would either no longer be a social burden or would self deport. I don't see how he would make the supreme court change their rulings re illegals.

There's no way that would fly since once the illegals are here absent a removal policy they stay and they reliably vote democrat. And they get to vote legal or not. Sorry I can't link anything I am on a mobile.

But his own statements regarding opposition to a border fence id and verification are enough for anyone to see his intent.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza November 21, 2013 12:47 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous patrick kelly November 21, 2013 12:48 PM  

"Can you prove that from either his 2008 or 2012 campaign platforms? Or from his voting record?"

It's right next to where it says he wants to sell heroin to 3 year olds and surrender to the terrorists.

Anonymous Will Best November 21, 2013 12:57 PM  

The GOP really needs to take a page from the DNC playbook and get much better at just making shit up and shamelessly pandering to demographics.

The problem with that is they try and pander to the same demo. The GOP really should just rip the remaining working and middle class whites from the Dem's already fleeting grasps and ignore the Hispanics and Blacks. If they would have bothered building it over the last 3 years IA, MI and PA would be theirs in a walk in 2016. But they plan on throwing good money after bad in NV and CO even though they are less than half the votes.

This would also have the added benefit of policies that were slightly more beneficial to the country because they would be chasing votes of productive Americans

Blogger WATYF November 21, 2013 1:29 PM  

The math in the letter fails spectacularly.

Yeah. I was wondering about this as well. What gives?

WATYF

Blogger IM2L844 November 21, 2013 1:39 PM  

The math in the letter fails spectacularly.

Yeah. I was wondering about this as well. What gives?


He wasn't using a "per employee basis"

Anonymous Will Best November 21, 2013 1:49 PM  

He wasn't using a "per employee basis"

Which is irrelevant to his argument because he is talking about the harm to his employees. At which point he should be talking about how the company is having to cut wages from $10 to $9 an hour to provide 350 employees with insurance they don't want.

Even the $6400 deductible isn't necessarily a bad deal if the company is returning the difference between the current policy which maths out to $57/wk and the $7/wk plan he discribed. That is $2600 to the employee which means that they are saving on the excessive "insurance" plan they previously had.

Blogger JCclimber November 21, 2013 1:58 PM  

IF the Repugnants had actually wanted to torpedo Obamacare, they only had to do one, simple, thing.

Make it permanent law that there will be zero, absolutely zero, exemptions from the law's scope.
Because the Repugnants are losers at heart, they manuevered to get their constituency businesses granted this and that exemption. They are now in the 1,000s of businesses.

Remove it from ALL businesses and unions. Make it permanent. Don't delay implementation.

Their talking point would be that since the law is so good, it must be good for everyone and every business and every union. Period. Why do you hate the children?

But of course they didn't do that because they are short-sighted losers. Accept it and stop looking to the Repugnants for level-headed solutions. Start enjoying the theater. Mock those who still believe. It is unfixable.

Blogger WATYF November 21, 2013 2:16 PM  

He wasn't using a "per employee basis"

So what was he using, and how can we get the numbers to tie? Because as it stands, none of that stuff adds up.

WATYF

Anonymous Porky November 21, 2013 2:26 PM  

The math in the letter fails spectacularly.

You mean people lie on the internets??!?

Blogger IM2L844 November 21, 2013 2:28 PM  

So what was he using

The company's bottom line. 2 million is roughly somewhere between 2 and 3 times more than 750k. He should have just left out the number of employees because it's irrelevant to the company's bottom line.

Anonymous 11B November 21, 2013 2:32 PM  

There's no way that would fly since once the illegals are here absent a removal policy they stay and they reliably vote democrat. And they get to vote legal or not. Sorry I can't link anything I am on a mobile.

But his own statements regarding opposition to a border fence id and verification are enough for anyone to see his intent.


First, Ron Paul was against the border fence not because he was in favor of open borders, but because he believed that a border fence designed to keep others out could be used to keep us in like the Berlin Wall.

Second, like many on the right, he was against a national ID because, like the fence above, he felt it could be used against the citizens.

After all, our new laws enacted to "protect" us from terrorists, aka The Patriot Act, have now been used to spy on American citizens. Our increased security posture to prevent more terror attacks has resulted in average Americans going through endless security checks and pat downs.

So Paul is being consistent in his views. It is not that he is an open border supporter, but rather he is more a defender of individual liberty and does not want to increase the government's authority over us.

With that in mind, his position on illegal immigration seems to be to not allow them to have access to social benefits, which he doesn't support anyway because he thinks it's theft, and to not allow them to work. Without those magnets the flow of new illegals would be significantly reduced, and those here would be pressured to self deport.

You might not like his position, but I don't see political double speak from him on this. It seems to be consistent with his values and he is not trying to bring in illegals for votes (democrats) or cheap labor (GOP).

Anonymous Josh November 21, 2013 2:58 PM  

Their talking point would be that since the law is so good, it must be good for everyone and every business and every union. Period. Why do you hate the children?

Absolutely. Agree and Amplify.

Anonymous Will Best November 21, 2013 3:07 PM  

You mean people lie on the internets??!?

That isn't surprising. Its that Vox used such an obvious lie to demonstrate his point that politicians lie. Yes they lied, but since this guy is also lying, whatever he is saying can't be used to demonstrate that pols lie.

The company's bottom line. 2 million is roughly somewhere between 2 and 3 times more than 750k. He should have just left out the number of employees because it's irrelevant to the company's bottom line.

You are trying to change the guys point. He isn't arguing about how the extra 1.25 million cost to the company harms the employees. He is arguing that the change in insurance and mandatory opt in harms the employees by either reducing their benefits or taking more money out of their take home pay.

Anonymous patrick kelly November 21, 2013 3:17 PM  

"Ron Paul was against the border fence not because he was in favor of open borders, but because he believed that a border fence designed to keep others out could be used to keep us in like the Berlin Wall. "

Yeah, they told me if I wrote in Ron Paul that fence would never be built......

Blogger WATYF November 21, 2013 3:21 PM  

You are trying to change the guys point. He isn't arguing about how the extra 1.25 million cost to the company harms the employees. He is arguing that the change in insurance and mandatory opt in harms the employees by either reducing their benefits or taking more money out of their take home pay.

^What he said.

If all the guy had said was "I used to pay 750K, now I pay 2M" then we would have no reason to doubt his numbers. But he didn't do that. Not only did he mention the number of employees, he also mentioned the percent of the premium he has to pay, how it affects the employees, and what they each have to pay per week.

WATYF

Blogger IM2L844 November 21, 2013 3:25 PM  

He is arguing that the change in insurance and mandatory opt in harms the employees by either reducing their benefits or taking more money out of their take home pay.

In either case, the letter was really unclear. I didn't look critically at the rest of it. After doing so, I see that I should have. The numbers don't add up no matter how you look at it, so you are probably correct that it is a fake.

Anonymous Anonymous November 21, 2013 3:50 PM  

Yeah, the math is way off. He says this: "My company, based in California, employs 600. We used to insure about 250 of our employees. The rest opted out. The company paid 50% of their premiums for about $750,000/yr." But then he says that he's being forced to cover the other 350 employees, at "double or triple the rates," and pay 91% of the premium instead of the previous 50%. It's not clear whether some of the increases he's talking about here are included in each other, but it looks to me like his total bill should be 4-10 times what it was, not 2.5 times.

Doesn't mean it's a fake; could just mean he's bad with numbers and explaining it badly. This is the kind of thing we know is happening, after all: people being forced out of plans they liked into plans that are more expensive and more restrictive. But it does distract from the point when the math doesn't make sense.

Anonymous Will Best November 21, 2013 5:24 PM  

Doesn't mean it's a fake; could just mean he's bad with numbers and explaining it badly.

No. Stop. Anonymous posts on the internet do not get the benefit of the doubt. It is materially deficient and therefore is dismissed in its entirety.

Anonymous cherub's revenge November 21, 2013 9:25 PM  

^"What he said.

If all the guy had said was "I used to pay 750K, now I pay 2M" then we would have no reason to doubt his numbers. But he didn't do that. Not only did he mention the number of employees, he also mentioned the percent of the premium he has to pay, how it affects the employees, and what they each have to pay per week"


Maybe the 2 million he cites is what he'll have to pay bottom line after the new. MediCal expansion and Covered California law. Don't know, just guessing here.

Blogger JCclimber November 22, 2013 2:12 PM  

Yes, the numbers do not add up as given. $2 MM should actually be $10 MM, unless he is counting tax write offs and other offsets against company books. Which wouldn's surprise me if 80% of the amount companies pay for health insurance for their employees isn't somehow taken out of the company revenue so that it is tax beneficial.

Any way you slice it, the numbers are not adding up. Unless the 750k was also on an after tax writeoff basis.

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