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Monday, November 11, 2013

How institutions die

As various Christians at Northwest Christian University fall about congratulating themselves for being so open and accepting of having an atheist student body president at their nominally Christian institution, the reality is that this likely marks the beginning of the end for the school.
A student from a Christian university in Oregon ditched the privacy of the confessional and went public about his faith, writing in the school newspaper: "I am an atheist. Yes, you read that correctly, I am an atheist."

Eric Fromm, 21, a senior at Northwest Christian University in Eugene published his thoughts about not believing in God in the Beacon Bolt, the student-run online newspaper -- despite the fact that his university is a Christian school.

Although Fromm didn't share the religious beliefs as the school, he said in his post he decided to enroll because Northwest Christian had a "solid communications program."

"Before I enrolled, I visited the campus to make sure that the chapel services were comfortable enough that I could fulfill the requirement," he said. "No one was speaking in tongues or handling snakes, so I decided to stay."

But Fromm didn't feel at peace.

"Every day I'm burdened by the fact that my peers might reject me because I'm different from them. I won't be rejected because of my race or social class, but simply because of the fact that I don't believe in God -- because I am an atheist," wrote Fromm in his post.
The university should promptly expel Mr. Fromm, return his senior year tuition, and make it clear that it is a Christian university and not a secular one. Christianity is not about acceptance. It is not about tolerance. It is about separating the wheat from the chaff and dividing the sheep from the goats. In his own words, Jesus makes it perfectly clear that he did not come to bring peace. He is, in fact, the dividing factor.

If the university does not expel Mr. Fromm, then it is quite clear that it is no longer a Christian institution. It is merely another secular institution with religion classes. What's next, churches with atheist pastors....

Now, there is nothing wrong with secular institutions that welcome everyone and practice religious and ideological ecumenicism. There is a place for such things. Atheists are welcome here, for example. But not only is there no place for inclusive Christian institutions, such institutions have no rational reason to exist in the first place. To those who will say "well, what is wrong with permitting atheists attend/teach/work at religious institutions" the answer is quite simple: look at what has happened to the Ivy League universities, the Episcopal Church, and every other Christian institution that decides to be led by the principle of tolerance rather than doctrine-based exclusion.

Every institution that doesn't actively police its membership will be invaded, taken over, and subverted by its opponents. It doesn't matter if you're talking about the Cub Scouts or the Communist Party. It's not an accident that Mr. Fromm pursued a leadership position, then promptly went public with his atheism.

Just look at that smug, self-satisfied face. You can see that he is absolutely delighted for having been able to pull one over on the university. The remarkable thing is that he managed to control himself from his inclination to lecture everyone about his adolescent concept of the life, the universe, and everything. And despite the fact that he wasn't rejected by the school, he still managed to produce a conventional work in the oppression genre.

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206 Comments:

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Anonymous rubbermallet November 11, 2013 9:53 AM  

" a "solid communications program.""

the best part of the whole thing. they have the best play dough.

Anonymous fmudd November 11, 2013 9:59 AM  

I don't think the school would be in a position to expel him; they most likely would be opening themselves up to a lawsuit.

Many (not all) religious schools don't have anything in their admissions applications saying you must be of a particular faith to attend.

Lastly; I would imagine that expelling him would backfire and cause the school to be labeled intolerant, evil, etc. thus causing less kids to attend.

Anonymous TLM November 11, 2013 9:59 AM  

yeah, the Communications major says it all. He also looks like your typical queer rump ranger.

Blogger Eric Wilson November 11, 2013 10:01 AM  

Yeah the "solid communications program" sounds like one the Onion would use.

Anonymous AmyJ November 11, 2013 10:03 AM  

My alma mater - a small, southern cofC university - made headlines briefly last year due to a handful of gay alumni and students banding together and publishing a web magazine about their experiences at a Christian college and how they felt "unacceptable". I thought it was rather silly, but was very proud when the school's administration basically said "don't care", blocked the web site, and endured the extremely brief, extremely irrelevant backlash. Don't know how much longer that will last though...

Anonymous Stilicho November 11, 2013 10:05 AM  

look at what has happened to the Ivy League universities, the Episcopal Church, and every other Christian institution that decides to embrace the world rather than the faith.

IIRC, Harvard started out as Harvard Divinity School with the express purpose of training Christian ministers. The typical progression has accelerated in today's PC environment.

Anonymous fmudd November 11, 2013 10:10 AM  


IIRC, Harvard started out as Harvard Divinity School with the express purpose of training Christian ministers. The typical progression has accelerated in today's PC environment.


There is still a Harvard Divinity School that trains ministers; the school has since expanded of course but the divinity school is still pretty big:

http://www.hds.harvard.edu/

Anonymous Brother Thomas November 11, 2013 10:11 AM  

I have a confession. I am not a secular statist. I do not believe in The State. I do not believe it is benevolent. I do not believe it loves me. I do not believe it is run by angelic-like beings working towards the betterment of humanity and ultimate utopia.

I am uncomfortable paying taxes. I am uncomfortable obeying The States numerous rules. I am uncomfortable with its ceremonies.

Every day I’m burdened by the fact I’m different from those around me. I’m out of step with the culture. I don’t watch the television. I don't read newspapers. I don’t believe politicians. I question authority. I’m an outcast. I’m rejected. I’m alive.

Anonymous Daniel November 11, 2013 10:14 AM  

Lastly; I would imagine that expelling him would backfire and cause the school to be labeled intolerant, evil, etc. thus causing less kids to attend.

I doubt it very much.

Blogger Desiderius November 11, 2013 10:16 AM  

Churchianity is functionally atheist already. There's a reason why they elevated this guy to a leadership position - he's leading to where they're already heading.

The actual best and brightest are heading in an entirely different direction...

Blogger Desiderius November 11, 2013 10:18 AM  

"Harvard Divinity School that trains ministers"

Seminaries train ministers. Divinity Schools keep a few token believers around.

Blogger JartStar November 11, 2013 10:19 AM  

Don't know how much longer that will last though...

Don't give into cynicism, despair, and the thinking trap that all good things inevitably must fail! Once that attitude is assumed the enemy has already won as there's no point in taking the battlements if the war is already over. There are plenty of good organizations and churches around; support them even if they have minor flaws.

Anonymous Gundeck Bob November 11, 2013 10:23 AM  

Why doesn't the student body just vote his smug little ass out of office?

Anonymous 11B November 11, 2013 10:24 AM  

And I always thought Christians were anti -book learnin', or at least that was one the atheist talking points.

Anonymous hygate November 11, 2013 10:26 AM  

He implicitly lies for three years about his religious believes to those around him, in fact his statements in the article would seem to indicate that he has been dishonest with his friends and family at least since high school, and yet he casts himself as the victim.

And when he does "come out" it is to a bunch of freshmen who, for some odd reason, thought they were attending a christian institution and, therefore, that the class president would be a practicing christian.


Anonymous HongKongCharlie November 11, 2013 10:27 AM  

Following the above link indicates the college has already lost it's way. From the stats it would be a good place for an alpha male to enroll. For the same reason HKC took typing many many years ago. As the only male in the typing class it was where the girls were. Never mind it took several weeks outside to convince the rabbits of the day that some males did indeed take typing.

HKC

Blogger Nate November 11, 2013 10:28 AM  

Note also that liberal institutions have no qualms protecting their membership. Try to sneak a conservative into a liberal institution and see how that works out.

Anonymous Susan November 11, 2013 10:37 AM  

For leftists, and atheists, it is all about the attack on Christian beliefs now. They are deliberately seeking out these private schools as well as businesses to infect and ultimately destroy. For secular leftists of all stripes, it is about the taking of scalps now, and publicly bragging about it.


Blogger swiftfoxmark2 November 11, 2013 10:39 AM  

Christianity in the United States is a business, not a religion. Church growth are the focus of the pastor and the congregational leaders.

So when a Christian college accepts an atheist as a student, it is clear what kind of Christianity this college is promoting.

Anonymous the bandit November 11, 2013 10:51 AM  

> Note also that liberal institutions have no qualms protecting their membership.

As a ready example, look no further than the top of this page.

Anonymous Myrddin November 11, 2013 10:51 AM  

Churchianity is not functionally atheist. It believes in a god who exists primarily to make you feel good and plan a bright future for you, and who is of secondary importance to a wife-centered marriage.

Anonymous XSamX November 11, 2013 10:52 AM  

The name of this school (and this post) make a category error.

Attending a "Christian School" does not make one a Christian...

Neither does attending a church (Catholic or not), or getting baptized, or "being a good person."

"Marvel not that I said to thee, Ye must be born again. " (John 3:7)

Anonymous VD November 11, 2013 10:57 AM  

The name of this school (and this post) make a category error.

It does nothing of the sort.

Attending a "Christian School" does not make one a Christian...

No one said it did. The assertion was that non-Christians attending and teaching and holding leadership positions at a school make it non-Christian.

Anonymous Salt November 11, 2013 10:59 AM  

Atheist 'Mega-Churches' Take Root Across US, World

It looked like a typical Sunday morning at any mega-church. Several hundred people, including families with small children, packed in for more than an hour of rousing music, an inspirational talk and some quiet reflection. The only thing missing was God.

Nearly three dozen gatherings dubbed "atheist mega-churches" by supporters and detractors have sprung up around the U.S. and Australia — with more to come — after finding success in Great Britain earlier this year. The movement fueled by social media and spearheaded by two prominent British comedians is no joke.



I'm sure they are all discussing science.

Anonymous Myrddin November 11, 2013 11:01 AM  

Lastly; I would imagine that expelling him would backfire and cause the school to be labeled intolerant, evil, etc. thus causiing less kids to attend.

Islam is growing about ss fast as Christianity is declining. The willing converts aee typically young and male. When asked why, the leaders respond that Muslims claim to be right to the exclusion of other religions, and kids crave that certainty.

Blogger rycamor November 11, 2013 11:04 AM  

Conservative Christian is discovered among members of secular "all-inclusive" group of intellectual poseurs. Is excoriated, threatened, called every offensive name imaginable before finally kicked out. Not a hint of apology or irony displayed.

Smug leftard atheist is discovered in leadership role in one of those intolerant right-wing Christian colleges. Defenders of the faith immediately fall all over themselves to welcome this betrayal and intrusion, because no one should mindhurt and feelbad, ever, and aren't we such wonderful people?

Boy, we sure showed them.

Anonymous Jake November 11, 2013 11:05 AM  

Even if you can't expel him, there's no way can he remain student body president. This guy is a fraud to the core. Not only does he lie about his beliefs to attend this school, then he has the hubris to seek and win a position of leadership within the student body and THEN "come out" that he does not belong there had has been deceiving his classmates all along. Then to top it all off, he can't help but portray himself as a victim!

I see a bright political future for this twerp. He's clearly got what it takes to be top-notch scum of the sort usually found in DC.

Anonymous Gecko November 11, 2013 11:06 AM  

But Vox! We're supposed to be killing them with kindness! Jesus himself said so, somewhere, I'm certain. Besides, being offensive is a direct violation of the Great Commission, the supreme law of the land!

Blogger Jamie-R November 11, 2013 11:07 AM  

America doesn't need those who are against its 56 founders. The Vatican did just fine while policing those who wanted to create unbelief.

Anonymous Myrddin November 11, 2013 11:08 AM  

@XSamX

Christ taught thst the church will always have a nice population of unbelievers (Parable of the weat and the tares).

When the sheep permit a known wolf to lead them, however, the organization is not Christian anymore, regardless of how many Christians are in it.

Anonymous Noah B. November 11, 2013 11:14 AM  

Lying on a job application is usually considered cause for immediate dismissal. I don't know why a college application should be any different.

Anonymous DrTorch November 11, 2013 11:15 AM  

I checked out the school for it's statement of faith. It makes no requirement of one for students, and explicitly says it accepts students with "no faith committment." However, they do go on to say "Our goal for our students is to put their wisdom and faith to work by leading lives of service in whatever capacity that might be. " So if you have no faith, I guess that really lowers the bar for any expectations of you. To a point where one would ask, "why bother."

" a "solid communications program.""
the best part of the whole thing. they have the best play dough.


Indeed.

Besides, being offensive is a direct violation of the Great Commission, the supreme law of the land!

Exactly. "Hey, let's start worshipping this idol, 'cause you know God is love."

Anonymous Noah B. November 11, 2013 11:18 AM  

"The name of this school (and this post) make a category error."

California Republic: now there's a category error.

Anonymous DrTorch November 11, 2013 11:19 AM  

The university should promptly expel Mr. Fromm, return his senior year tuition, and make it clear that it is a Christian university and not a secular one.

Actually, I would suggest that if the university chooses not to do this, then the students should promptly transfer and sue the university for full refund of their tuitions.

Anonymous fmudd November 11, 2013 11:20 AM  

@Salt


During the service, attendees stomped their feet, clapped their hands and cheered as Jones and Evans led the group through rousing renditions of "Lean on Me," ''Here Comes the Sun" and other hits that took the place of gospel songs. Congregants dissolved into laughter at a get-to-know-you game that involved clapping and slapping the hands of the person next to them and applauded as members of the audience spoke about community service projects they had started in LA.


Before long there will be atheist sermons, I mean dialogues, from appointed atheists ministers, oops speakers, on what constitutes being a proper atheist and what will get you banished.

Anonymous zen0 November 11, 2013 11:20 AM  

I see a bright political future for this twerp. He's clearly got what it takes to be top-notch scum of the sort usually found in DC.

Certainly an element of smug self-promotion involved.

Sounds familiar somehow....... just can't seem to place it.......

Anonymous fmudd November 11, 2013 11:22 AM  


Islam is growing about ss fast as Christianity is declining. The willing converts aee typically young and male. When asked why, the leaders respond that Muslims claim to be right to the exclusion of other religions, and kids crave that certainty.


I am skeptical of this "Islam is growing" claim; when you punish people who stop believing with death your membership claims tend to be skewed.

Anonymous VD November 11, 2013 11:23 AM  

It makes no requirement of one for students, and explicitly says it accepts students with "no faith commitment.

It's not actually a Christian school then, is it.

Anonymous Jake November 11, 2013 11:28 AM  

It looked like a typical Sunday morning at any mega-church. Several hundred people, including families with small children, packed in for more than an hour of rousing music, an inspirational talk and some quiet reflection. The only thing missing was God.

Most mega-churches, and many more traditional churches, have nothing to offer service attendees except an "emotional experience", not surprising that some enterprising atheist said "hey, we can do that too!"

Anonymous stevev November 11, 2013 11:29 AM  

fuckin' A, Nate. Fuckin' A.

Anonymous Stilicho November 11, 2013 11:31 AM  

there is still a Harvard Divinity School that trains ministers


I am well aware of that. The point is how far it has strayed from its original Christian nature.

Anonymous MrGreenMan November 11, 2013 11:37 AM  

How is this different from something like the girls of Focus on the Family talking about how they get more Christianity at a Macklemore concert singing along to "Same Love"? Terms mean nothing anymore; all the expressive power has bled out of the language.

Anonymous Anonymous November 11, 2013 11:46 AM  

Lastly; I would imagine that expelling him would backfire and cause the school to be labeled intolerant, evil, etc. thus causing less kids to attend.

Maybe with fewer students, they'd be able to teach the difference between "less" and "fewer." I was teaching that to 13-year-old homeschoolers last week, though, so it might be too advanced for college.

Nah, it'd be a story for a few days, and then it'd be pushed off the front pages. The same people who were going to hate the school for being Christian (even nominally) would go on hating it, just as they would if it caved in. The lesson liberals themselves have taught over and over everywhere they've been in charge is that supplicating to them only raises their bloodlust.

Tell them to get out of your face, and there's a good chance that, like any bully, they'll find another target.

Anonymous Mike M. November 11, 2013 11:51 AM  

Show him the door. He's both dishonest and rude. This was typical atheist behavior - if you changed "atheist" to "Catholic", "Protestant", or "Buddist", it would be a clear proof that the offender was a bigot and extraordinarily rude.

Tolerance is a two-way street.

Anonymous Heh November 11, 2013 11:58 AM  

I see a bright political future for this twerp. He's clearly got what it takes to be top-notch scum of the sort usually found in DC.

Certainly an element of smug self-promotion involved.

Sounds familiar somehow....... just can't seem to place it.......


Would it help if the guy posted a picture of himself wearing a dress?

Blogger buzzardist November 11, 2013 12:04 PM  

Ultimately, the university probably need not worry too much about Fromm. Yes, his public display affects the university's image, but the university can smooth this over with a public reiteration of its faith stance.

Still, this does get to the heart of a burning question for Christian universities about what makes them "Christian." Is it because the faculty and administration are Christian? Is it because the student body is entirely Christian? Is it because the university has a denominational affiliation? Universities will argue about this. Many nominally Christian universities don't actually want to take a faith stance anymore. These are the universities that are, for all practical purposes, lost, and there are many of them. But it's not generally rot from within the student body that causes these universities to die or go fully secular. The rot is often in the affiliated or parent church to which the university is tied, or else it's in the university administration and faculty. Very often, universities grow lax on enforcing any kind of doctrinal rules on their faculty, or, if they do, then it's merely a nominal call to faith without any specific acceptance of or respect for the denomination's or university's religious tradition. At many Christian universities, one would be hard-pressed to find even one in fifty faculty who actually participate in the denomination to which the university is tied. The university may require faculty to be active members at least in some other Christian church, and those that don't at least require this are generally already gone. Once the faculty don't have to be practicing Christians within certain orthodox limits, the Christian affiliation of the university is meaningless.

As for students, some universities do take the hard stance that students must be Christians active within a church, but many of these also tend to be extremely legalistic schools with extreme prohibitions about wearing shorts, walking with the opposite sex, and the like. Many universities don't require adherence to faith for students, but do still require participation in chapels and other religious requirements, and the application still requires a faith statement, even if that statement is one of atheism. The university requires participation in a Christ-centered community, but what this means if some of the participants reject Christ is unclear.

Since this is the kind of university Fromm was at, then they really can't do much to him at this point. Fromm was an ass who tried to pass himself off to others as a Christian when he wasn't because he wanted social acceptance, which marks him as a particularly weak individual, but the university won't do anything to him, not so long as he meets his chapel requirement. Why other students are so tolerant of him after "coming out" is another question, but I think this speaks to the general apathy toward religious belief among youth today. All of them are so desperate for social acceptance, having been raised on liberal nonsense about self esteem, tolerance, bullying, and the like, that they will bend over backwards to accept anyone who "comes out" in a public confession. Fromm's fraud was against other students, but they seem utterly unwilling to hold him accountable.

Blogger Crude November 11, 2013 12:08 PM  

Lastly; I would imagine that expelling him would backfire and cause the school to be labeled intolerant, evil, etc. thus causing less kids to attend.

If it were legal for him to be expelled, he should be expelled. It's reasonable to keep things like 'labeling' in mind, and to not go out of one's way to be a jerk, etc. But at this point you're going to be 'labeled as intolerant, evil, etc' if you so much as fail to approve of a whole lot of things, to say nothing of tolerate it, at least in some quarters. At some point you have to be willing to accept the label, come what may, even if you do your best to fight against it.

But of course, I don't think it's going to happen. The school seems to be signaling that they are vastly more concerned with being regarded as thoughtful and open-minded than anything else, in which case I have some advice for them: pull down all the crosses, snap them in two, and spit on them. You'll be hailed for your bold act of free thinking.

Blogger Unknown November 11, 2013 12:11 PM  

Not all Christians are required to be dicks, Vox

Anonymous FP November 11, 2013 12:18 PM  

Meh, its not surprising. Its in Eugene, a mega liberal enclave in Oregon. I once went to a wedding there presided over by a woman "pastor" or rather "oh they don't go by titles here". Uh, well what the hell am I supposed to call her then? Nice ceremony but finding out the "pastor" was divorced and that weekend was the first that her ex was getting the kids and introducing the new girlfriend was rather amusing and ironic.

Blogger Giraffe November 11, 2013 12:20 PM  

Not all Christians are required to be dicks, Vox

True. It is Atheism that has that characteristic as a prerequisite.

Anonymous Jack Amok November 11, 2013 12:22 PM  

Not all Christians are required to be dicks, Vox

True. One of the things that separates Christianity from Atheism, apparently.

Anonymous Bobby Trosclair November 11, 2013 12:22 PM  

As a side issue of note, the article also reflects the media's inability to have a reporter who actually knows something about religion write a story about religion. They would not employ a person who did not know the rules of football to write about sports, or a person who doesn't know that congress is bicameral to write about politics. Any half-conscious person can write about religious topics, however.

"A student from a Christian university in Oregon ditched the privacy of the confessional..." I am guessing that this university does not practice private confession and absolution in a confessional, as it is probably neither Catholic, Anglican, Anglo-Catholic, or some Lutheran, the only denominations that use a confessional for private confession.

"there is still a Harvard Divinity School that trains ministers"

"I am well aware of that. The point is how far it has strayed from its original Christian nature."

I spoke at a conference with a female minister on a panel who was a graduate of Harvard Divinity School. She spent most of the time on stage talking off-topic about her relationship with her female "life-partner."




Blogger Ron November 11, 2013 12:29 PM  

Not a xtian, but good for them. For what it's worth I think Vox is right, you guys have to stick up for yourselves more.

Anonymous physphilmusic November 11, 2013 12:32 PM  

I am well aware of that. The point is how far it has strayed from its original Christian nature.

I once tuned in on Sunday morning to a broadcast of the church service held at the Harvard Memorial Church. The pastor was in the middle of his sermon - and for the next 5 minutes he went on and on about "how could the Bible be so sexist and full of male privilege?!! PATRIARCHY!!", basically tearing down the Bible to the point that I couldn't imagine how he would ever find a way to find a redeeming feature at the end, as is customary in Churchianity. I couldn't stand it and tuned off. Often I listen to sermons from different denominations, and despite their controversial theology, I could usually still get some spiritual value from it. But this was the first time I actually felt actively repulsed by the sermon.

Blogger Anthony November 11, 2013 12:32 PM  

Student body president is a bullshit title. At very, very few colleges does the student government have any power beyond handing out a few bucks to student clubs, and even there, the college administration will set the guidelines of what constitutes an acceptable club, and the "president" doesn't make actual decisions.

Student "government" is basically resume fodder for kids who want to go into politics or marketing-type jobs, and a few deluded idealists who don't realize how unimportant it actually is.

So aside from the momentary publicity boost, the actual impact of having an atheist student body president will be negligible. It might expose existing damage, but it's not going to create more.

Blogger Harold Carper November 11, 2013 12:34 PM  

Only a declining culture with too much time on the hands of its people would have this problem. Feminism, atheism, and homosexuality are luxuries of the idle dead.

Blogger Ragin' Dave November 11, 2013 12:34 PM  

I think the thing that really sets this off is that Christianity is a choice - you either choose to accept and follow Christ, or you don't. It's not an obligation. It's not a demand. If this atheist douche-nozzle doesn't want to be a Christian, then why is he going to a Christian university? There are hundreds of different colleges and universities he could have chosen, many of which are anti-Christian in deed if not in word.

In essence, he lied and acted like an ass for the express purpose of lying and acting like an ass. And he wants to be congratulated for it. He IS being congratulated for it, by the university which keeps his lying asshole-ness as the student body president.

That's just pathetic.

Anonymous Aufhebend November 11, 2013 12:39 PM  

Linguistic irony: Fromm means "pious" in German. God truly has a stellar sense of humour.

Anonymous cheddarman November 11, 2013 12:42 PM  

The wicked grin on his face reminds me of how Tad might look if he suddenly became the leader of a boyscout Troop.

sincerely

cheddarman

Blogger Benzen November 11, 2013 12:51 PM  

@ Aufhebend

Well spotted, ist mir glatt entgangen.

Anonymous Anonymous November 11, 2013 12:51 PM  

Although Paul is obviously not talking about higher education, I think he was on to something,
"In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers and sisters, to keep away from every believer who is idle and disruptive and does not live according to the teaching you received from us. (2 Thess. 3:6)

Had a very painful incident happen a couple of years ago (I say painful cuz' I'm an INFJ - so unlike all you "T's out there, I feel your pain, and I am drawn to those who are suffering). A young couple approached me (they both sang on one of our praise teams), and informed me that they were homosexual, and were "coming out." I met with my elders and informed them of the situation, and stated categorically that they were out. No communion, no praise team...we politely showed them the door and wished them the best. To their credit they left without histrionics. The Elders were all in agreement, with some reservation.

The real fireworks came a few weeks later when the news came out. A very vocal female minority (there was about 10, only 2 were regular attenders), came forward and accused me of all the usual admonitions - sexist, intolerant, misogynistic. They wanted to have a congregational meeting to discuss this, and my church council declined (with my recommendation). Our constitution clearly addresses this type of situation, and I saw no need to open it up for discussion.

One interesting aspect transpired at our church council meeting. Three council members posited this line of reasoning, "We don't approve of their lifestyles and the fact that they will be "evangelizing" their position, but the potential loss of members is more important than standing on what we believe to be doctrines faithful to the law of scripture - so therefore we should not show them the door."

There comes a time when Christians need to break ties - be it the local congregation or one's social life. Doesn't mean we don't associate with those who believe differently, doesn't mean we hold our holy righteousness over them. What does it mean when we join with them at the communion table (for non-sacramental Christians you can insert your own worship practice here). As an LCMS Lutheran, we attempt to be one in doctrine and practice before communing together (this area can be cloudy - but the attempt is there). When you allow this kind of poison to enter the Christian body - you must then be ready to suffer the consequences. And fear of being called nasty names, or losing church members is, IMO, not a valid excuse to allow this kind of behavior to go unchecked.

Anonymous Porky November 11, 2013 12:54 PM  

I love how Mr. Atheist embraces Matt 7:5 in support of his cause. I wonder if he ever read Matt 7:6.

Anonymous CarpeOro November 11, 2013 12:56 PM  

A search of their site doesn't find a moral code. I present exhibit A of why an explicit one is needed these days.

Lud VanB - that could be said of atheists and from this story, particularly so. The putz could have gotten his degree in "communications" without creating a pedestal to piss from on all of those around him, displaying his faith in himself as the be all and end all and smirking at others for their faith. He chose not to. He could have gone to another school with a "solid" comunications program and entirely secular. He chose not to.

Anonymous Anonymous November 11, 2013 12:57 PM  

Islam is growing about ss fast as Christianity is declining. The willing converts aee typically young and male.

The fact is that Christianity is not declining (worldwide), and is growing faster than Islam. This may not be true for the West, but in Asia and Africa - Christianity is growing like wildfire. The irony is that we are already seeing foreign missionaries coming to the U.S. and finding a fertile ground for their work. I welcome their voice and faith. The U.S. needs it.

Anonymous Vidad November 11, 2013 1:01 PM  

@Salt

"Hundreds" of attendees = a "mega-church." Hilarious.

Anonymous CarpeOro November 11, 2013 1:01 PM  

JDC, I turned my back on the ELCA mess when they talked about even discussing this stuff at a convention years ago and requested to be struck from their rolls. I could see where the already corrupted organization was going. Stay the course.

Anonymous Myrddin November 11, 2013 1:03 PM  

Not all Christians are required to be dicks, Vox

Actually, if we behave the way Christ and his apostles behaved:

To honest seekers: Be gentle.
To scoffers in private: Avoid them.
To scoffers in public: Humiliate them.
To people who claim to be part of the church, but are willfully and proudly disobeying: Kick them out.
To false teachers: Silence them and/or kick them out.
To those who repent: Welcome them back.

Notice under churchian definitions, in four of those six situations, Christians are required to be dicks.

Of course, that's just going by WWJD, since I haven't the time to track down actual commands to that effect (but the letters to the Corinthians and Galatians are a good place to start looking if you want to do the research yourself).

Anonymous Myrddin November 11, 2013 1:04 PM  

@JDC

Conceded. I should have qualified with 'in the west.'

Anonymous Vidad November 11, 2013 1:05 PM  

I'm with you on this one, Vox.

Straight-up separation of known tares needs to happen immediately. It's bad enough that there are plenty of non-believers playing church, but when one comes out with a direct contradiction to the faith, shunning, exclusion, etc. needs to take place.

We've had to do that with a close family member who wanted us to embrace his perverted lifestyle as not being contrary to his "Christianity." Hard to do, but it needs doing.

We can't separate from the world, but we can judge among ourselves and are called to do so. Otherwise, the faith is a joke.

Anonymous Vidad November 11, 2013 1:05 PM  

@Myrddin

Exactly.

Anonymous Anonymous November 11, 2013 1:07 PM  

@Myrddin - you are a gentleman and a scholar. I see the "Islam is the fastest growing religion" meme too often in my own work.

Anonymous Myrddin November 11, 2013 1:13 PM  

JDC, I turned my back on the ELCA mess when they talked about even discussing this stuff at a convention years ago and requested to be struck from their rolls. I could see where the already corrupted organization was going. Stay the course.

The LCMS ran right up to the brink of liberalism, then turned around and started running back. That's why I joined an LCMS church instead of a WELS, which has kept the faith more faithfully: to try and keep the momentum going. We just got a new pastor, fresh out of seminary, and unwilling to compromise, and already there have been some fireworks between him and the members that joined up when the LCMS was within spitting distance of the ELCA.

Anonymous Anonymous November 11, 2013 1:26 PM  

Fromm is the German word for "pious." Plus, it's generally not a Christian name.
N5

Anonymous Ugh November 11, 2013 1:29 PM  

I spoke at a conference with a female minister on a panel who was a graduate of Harvard Divinity School. She spent most of the time on stage talking off-topic about her relationship with her female "life-partner."

Here ya go:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/style-blog/wp/2013/11/06/nadia-bolz-weber-talks-in-washington-about-christianity-and-oprah/

Tattooed, profane, Wiccan liberal freak... of course she is a Lutheran minister.

Blogger Eric Wilson November 11, 2013 1:33 PM  

JDC,

I think close communion is one of the most important tools a church body has at its disposal to ensure that poisonous moles like Mr. Fromm are prevented from perverting the Gospel.

Blogger Crude November 11, 2013 1:37 PM  

Actually, here's a question for any Christian ilk.

Would you accept that someone could be an agnostic in terms of belief, but still a Christian? Say, someone who isn't sure of God's existence, or even has doubts, but nevertheless intellectually commits themselves to Christianity, and hopes that God does exist?

Anonymous dh November 11, 2013 1:39 PM  

"Hundreds" of attendees = a "mega-church." Hilarious.

No crap. Come on down south and visit a mega-church: six locations, 5 auditoriums, outdoor seating, jumbo tron. That's a megachurch. 10k strong at least.

Blogger Eric Wilson November 11, 2013 1:41 PM  

Crude,

I think it could be argued that most Christians are at least somewhat agnostic. I think that's what the faith part of religion.

Anonymous Outlaw X November 11, 2013 1:42 PM  

someone who isn't sure of God's existence, or even has doubts, but nevertheless intellectually commits themselves to Christianity, and hopes that God does exist?

Yes they can it is called faith in which all Christian doctrine is based on. Faith is an act, belief is not.

Anonymous Anonymous November 11, 2013 1:43 PM  

@Ugh. My response is ugg - She is a star in the ELCA, and I would not be surprised to learn that she has been elected as bishop (perhaps eventually even presiding bishop) in the next 5-10 years. The ELCA already elected a homosexual bishop in So Cal this past year - a bishop with only 2 years of ordained experience. It is clear they want LBGT leadership, and will do to any lengths to get it. My heart goes out to the faithful in the ELCA (which is still 70% rural). Most people in the pews in the ELCA have no clue, and unless their pastor is talking openly about these developments, they will continue to be in the dark.

Anonymous Outlaw X November 11, 2013 1:45 PM  

Should read "act of the will."

Blogger Crude November 11, 2013 1:46 PM  

Okay, that was some fast responses. I'm glad, because I've long thought that an 'agnostic' could still be a Christian, but I wanted to see what you guys thought.

Which makes the situation with this atheist touchier. It sounds like he's not merely some agnostic or someone who lacks belief, but a full on 'I don't like Christianity, I hope it's false' atheist.

Anonymous Bobby Trosclair November 11, 2013 1:58 PM  

"I spoke at a conference with a female minister on a panel who was a graduate of Harvard Divinity School. She spent most of the time on stage talking off-topic about her relationship with her female "life-partner."

Here ya go:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/style-blog/wp/2013/11/06/nadia-bolz-weber-talks-in-washington-about-christianity-and-oprah/

Tattooed, profane, Wiccan liberal freak... of course she is a Lutheran minister."

Sad to say, Ugh, that is not the one I met...which means that there is more than one. Similarly butchy hairstyle, sense of self-aggrandizement, and chip-on-shoulder attitude, though.

Anonymous Myrddin November 11, 2013 1:59 PM  

Would you accept that someone could be an agnostic in terms of belief, but still a Christian? Say, someone who isn't sure of God's existence, or even has doubts, but nevertheless intellectually commits themselves to Christianity, and hopes that God does exist?

Agnostic covers a lot of ground. I would say that in the example case, yeah, he could be a Christian. As a Lutheran, I would say he needs to get the mark of the Covenant (which has passed from being Circumcision to being Baptism). I think anyone would say that since the Bible says faith comes from hearing, he should hear the Scripture on a regular basis to create, maintain and grow some faith if he's truly betting on that horse.

Whether someone is ultimately saved or not, we are forbidden to judge.

Anonymous Alexander November 11, 2013 2:00 PM  

Of course he is.

An agnostic with Chrtistian sympathies would not have gone about blowing this up in this manner.

Anonymous TX November 11, 2013 2:04 PM  

"coming out" is this wicked generation's version of being born again.

You "come out" as an atheist or gay. To be celebrated and cheered. The wrath on this land will be terrible. It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment. Yes, I'm speaking of the "good ole' US of A" that will be smited.

Blogger James Dixon November 11, 2013 2:05 PM  

> Would you accept that someone could be an agnostic in terms of belief, but still a Christian?

Hmm. Taking the definition of the term belief from the OED:

1 an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof
2 trust, faith, or confidence in (someone or something)

I'd have to disagree with the others and say no.

You have to have faith. That does not mean that you consider the matter proven (or even provable), or that you be certain that your belief is correct. I believe the latter is what you're actually asking. To which my response would be: Did Christ turn Thomas away when he doubted?

Blogger slarrow November 11, 2013 2:07 PM  

Crude, it has to do with some ambiguity in the term "faith" or "belief." If a belief is considered to be a truth statement, then assenting to the truth statements intellectually just is believing, and there is no real agnosticism (in the sense that one does not say, "I assert that it is raining outside but am agnostic about whether the ground is wet".)

However, belief/faith has a significant emotional and intentional component. If a belief is considered as a truth claim, it makes no sense to talk about how "strong" one's belief or faith is. But it's not just a truth claim--it has to do with the power of commitment.

The classic example I've heard is believing that a certain rickety chair can hold your weight is one thing while actually sitting on it is quite another. A person who mumbles doubts while walking to the thing and is still worried about whether it'll hold up under his weight is the same status, in my view, as someone who sits there serenely. But it's ultimately sit or stand. (And if someone says, "there is no chair", for God's sake, don't let him become student body president of a purportedly Christian college!)

Anonymous Myrddin November 11, 2013 2:09 PM  

Faith is an act [of will], belief is not.

That is contested. The Baptists say that it is. The Calvinists say, I think (but may very well be wrong), that on the micro level it seems that way, but ultimately it is the will of God. My church teaches that faith is trust created by the Word, and is not an act of human will, but that a human with faith can, by an act of the will, subsequently reject it.

It's tricky, and I don't grok it. Theology is a side project for me at the moment, and I'm a recent convert to my own peculiar branch of the faith.

Anonymous cheddarman November 11, 2013 2:11 PM  

No crap. Come on down south and visit a mega-church: six locations, 5 auditoriums, outdoor seating, jumbo tron. That's a megachurch. 10k strong at least. -dh

Nothin' personal DH, but I would rather not. I think mega churches are a disaster. They generally emphasize entertainment, water down the truth, and promote personal autonomy and the feminine imperative...i cant remember the last time i heard a sermon about hell or mentioning hell in a mega church....

sincerely

cheddarman

Anonymous Myrddin November 11, 2013 2:16 PM  

@James Dixon

Jesus did not turn Thomas away, he merely rebuked him.

The original Greek word, pistis, does not have the same meaning as the English word from the OED. As a noun, in the works of Aristotle and Quintiallian, pistis is actually used to mean forensic evidence! And in Acts 17:31 (the word 'assurance' is pistis).

A more accurate definition of the Greek word is "trust given based on past performance or historical evidence", Which is why the Apostles continually appealed to the empty tomb and the witnesses of the Ressurection.

Anonymous Crispy November 11, 2013 2:17 PM  

The left is happy when their Trojan horse trick works, but doesn't like their tricks played on them:
A politician in Texas has been accused of “disgusting” dirty tricks after winning a local election against an African-American opponent by pretending to be black.

Blogger James Dixon November 11, 2013 2:21 PM  

> Jesus did not turn Thomas away, he merely rebuked him.

Exactly. And even at that it was more a case of praising others then rebuking him.

Anonymous Jonathan November 11, 2013 2:24 PM  

My guess is that the atheist churches attract the Atheist+ variety. Instead of talking about science they sit around talking about how racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. everyone else is, ad nauseum. As for acting like dicks, I'm guessing lots of people considered Jesus a dick for driving out the money changers.

Anonymous CarpeOro November 11, 2013 2:29 PM  

From the article about the homosexual bishop:

“She’s bringing some flavor to the gospel. She’s bringing an edge,”

That pretty much says it all about what is wrong with these people. They find no "flavor" in God's words and need an "edge" because walking the narrow path isn't interesting enough. Shallow minds, shallow souls. I think all here remember what happens when the seed falls in shallow soil.

Anonymous Myrddin November 11, 2013 2:31 PM  

@James Dixon

I'm really on top of my game in this thread. I see I didn't read your comment carefully.

@Jonathan
I'm guessing lots of people considered Jesus a dick for driving out the money changers.

With a whip. That he braided himself.

Blogger James Dixon November 11, 2013 2:35 PM  

> I see I didn't read your comment carefully.

It happens to all of us. :)

Anonymous zen0 November 11, 2013 2:37 PM  

Crispy presents: A politician in Texas has been accused of “disgusting” dirty tricks after winning a local election against an African-American opponent by pretending to be black.

I guess that they are bitter for being shown up to be overtly raciss.

Blogger Kentucky Packrat November 11, 2013 2:37 PM  

Actually, if we behave the way Christ and his apostles behaved:

Mind if I post this over on my blog? This is the best way I've seen this put in a while.

Would you accept that someone could be an agnostic in terms of belief, but still a Christian? Say, someone who isn't sure of God's existence, or even has doubts, but nevertheless intellectually commits themselves to Christianity, and hopes that God does exist?

The problem here is that the closest most "Christians" have come to the Holy Spirit is running past his name in the Lord's Prayer as quickly as possible.

Peter told his fellow Jewish believers (paraphrased), "They have been baptized in the Holy Spirit. Who are we to deny them the baptism of water?"

There is more to Christianity than intellectual pursuit and belief. If the Holy Spirit isn't involved, then Jesus himself says that He will say "Get away, I never knew you".

OTOH, if the Holy Spirit is at work, then I won't claim to know better than it. Some of Vox's positions are so close to heretical, they are problematic. However, even at this distance I can see where the Holy Spirit works through him. I've known other people with incorrect theology who clearly had faith in Christ and had accepted salvation.

Crude, the line in the sand is faith. Job had faith even when receiving nothing but bad news. Mother Theresa spoke of going years or even decades with no leading from the Holy Spirit in her life, despite clear examples where she knew God was acting in it.

The Holy Spirit spoke to me much clearer when I was a teen on the farm than now. Of course, I had nothing in my life to distract from Him than a tractor, cattle, and hay; now, there's so much that fills my life that I don't make enough time for God. Nonetheless, I know God is in my life too.

Crude, the answer to the question is: what does your agnostic believe about being indwelled by the Holy Spirit? If the answer is "what?", then it is something for him (or her) to pray for. It may take a while (or a lifetime), and it probably won't be quite as flamboyant as Pentecost (or a Pentecostal, even....), but any Christian should want it.

Anonymous Gen. Kong November 11, 2013 2:49 PM  

Christianity has pretty much jumped the shark in the west, so there's nothing much surprising in this report. Does anyone here think the Dhummi of Canterbury is actually Christian? The fact that Fromm's atheism is out in the open is almost better in a way. He at least carries his flag openly. The board and others who govern the nominally Christian college in Oregon will be revealed as the frauds they likely are when they refuse to expel Fromm.

Anonymous XXSamXX November 11, 2013 2:53 PM  

".i cant remember the last time i heard a sermon about hell or mentioning hell in a mega church...."

It's because you are lazy. Mark Driscoll runs a megachurch. He preaches about Hell: http://marshill.com/2011/03/30/heaven-and-hell-sermon-notes-luke-68

Not all mega-chuches are "churchianity" -- just like every podunk (empty) fundie church isn't built on the Rock (p.s. the Rock is not St. Peter either)

Anonymous Josh November 11, 2013 2:57 PM  

Would you accept that someone could be an agnostic in terms of belief, but still a Christian? Say, someone who isn't sure of God's existence, or even has doubts, but nevertheless intellectually commits themselves to Christianity, and hopes that God does exist?

No.

What did Jesus say? Depart from me, I never knew you.

How can you have a relationship with someone you aren't even sure exists?

Blogger Crude November 11, 2013 3:00 PM  

Okay, a lot of the problem here seems to be coming down to how 'faith' is defined.

I agree that there is a psychological component at work. I don't think the definition of faith as 'belief without evidence' cuts an mustard at all, much less historically - it's just ridiculously hard to justify that term. Now, faith as an intellectual commitment, I could understand.

Anonymous Jonathan November 11, 2013 3:01 PM  

The term "Christian" is used once in the Bible and it was a term given to the believers to identify them, probably as a school of philosophy. Since living your life for Christ isn't a human philosophy why would you even want to be identified that way?

Anonymous Jack Amok November 11, 2013 3:05 PM  

Which makes the situation with this atheist touchier. It sounds like he's not merely some agnostic or someone who lacks belief, but a full on 'I don't like Christianity, I hope it's false' atheist.

From an Agnostic perspective, most Atheism looks like a particularly intolerant faith, one that goes bonkers at any public evidence of a competing faith. Sort of like Islam when you get right down to it.

As to whether an Agnostic can be a Christian, well, why would he want to be? But that's a separate question from whether he can act like a Christian in secular matters. I think if you just looked at behavior and happiness and prosperity from a purely secular view, people who behave like Christians seem to have it a lot better off than people who don't. So from a purely practical Agnostic might decide it's a good idea to adopt the secular behaviors of a generic Christian society. Whether that's possible or not without faith in God is another question. Possibly for a true agnostic is actually is, but I think true agnostics are pretty rare. Most people seem to need faith in something, and if it's not God then it's Baal or Moloch or Obama or whatever...

Anonymous Gen. Kong November 11, 2013 3:05 PM  

I see a bright political future for this twerp. He's clearly got what it takes to be top-notch scum of the sort usually found in DC.

Future president of the Christian Coalition and head of the RNC. The guy appears to be a natural Repuke leader. Ralphie Reed move over!

Anonymous Cinco November 11, 2013 3:06 PM  

People wonder why the Catholic church continues to shrink. Had they called all the pedophiles to Rome and publicly excommunicated them, I think their numbers would have skyrocketed. The Church chose pragmatism over principles, and the results of that kind of poor decision making won't vary in the long run.



Anonymous Ridip November 11, 2013 3:06 PM  

The school is pretty "squishy". SIL used to take it over in the summer to teach linguistics and anthropology classes because it was much less expensive than doing so at U of O across the street. That's how I wound up with a a number of hours accredited by them. I always had the impression it was much more Christian during the summer than during their regular sessions. I know a few local believers involved in ministry that graduated from there, but you sure couldn't blame the school for them being Christians.

Anonymous Anonymous November 11, 2013 3:08 PM  

I don't think a Christian who experiences doubts would call himself an agnostic. That seems like a whole different quality of unbelief.

Anonymous Outlaw X November 11, 2013 3:19 PM  

No.

What did Jesus say? Depart from me, I never knew you.

How can you have a relationship with someone you aren't even sure exists?


Josh you are taking scripture out of context.:

Matt 7:
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

They certainly believed but were lawless. They did not do the will of the Father.

There is a little bit of agnostic in every Christian Everyone has doubts otherwise there would be no reason for Faith. If you act on Faith you will do the will of The Father. Doubts do not negate Christianity.

Blogger Crude November 11, 2013 3:22 PM  

As to whether an Agnostic can be a Christian, well, why would he want to be?

Maybe he likes how Christianity sounds. Maybe he thinks God's existence is possible, even reasonable, but just far from certain. Maybe his doubts are emotional rather than intellectual. Etc.

Anonymous Heh November 11, 2013 3:31 PM  

A politician in Texas has been accused of “disgusting” dirty tricks after winning a local election against an African-American opponent by pretending to be black.

Well heck, if it worked (twice!) for El Presidente...

Anonymous Carlotta November 11, 2013 3:31 PM  

Judge not, Vox.
It says so, somewhere, in that book or something.

Blogger Desiderius November 11, 2013 3:33 PM  

"I think it could be argued that most Christians are at least somewhat agnostic. I think that's what the faith part of religion."

Yep, yep.

Gnosticism is in fact a Christian heresy. The a- prefix in Greek means "not". Not knowing.

Faith isn't a fucking science experiment. You don't get up in the morning and say "gee, do I love my wife? Let me collect some data and test the hypothesis" You committed to love your wife til death do you part and you live accordingly. Such is faith. In both cases, the fruit of so living is understood before the commitment is made.

Read Karen Armstrong's A Case For God to get a flavor of what post-Progressive faith looks like.

Blogger Desiderius November 11, 2013 3:34 PM  

"Judge not, Vox.
It says so, somewhere, in that book or something."

Lest ye be judged. Vox is ready. Are you?

Anonymous Outlaw X November 11, 2013 3:37 PM  

It says so, somewhere, in that book or something.

It also says, do not cast your pearls before swine nor give that which is Holy unto the dogs.

Anonymous Carlotta November 11, 2013 3:39 PM  

I prefer my wolves without their sheepskin. It makes it easier to tell who the other ones are, who the sheep are and The Shepherd from the hireling.

This kid has had no victory. He just makes discernment easier.

Anonymous Carlotta November 11, 2013 3:40 PM  

I was just playin y'all ;)

Anonymous Carlotta November 11, 2013 3:43 PM  

Also, how interesting that being an Atheist is just not fulfilling enough. So they need to poorly mimic the Church. Oh, the irony!

Anonymous Anonymous November 11, 2013 3:53 PM  

I can remember discussing the book, "The Christian Agnostic," years ago, and coming to the conclusion that the term Christian Agnostic was just another way for people who had doubts, and felt outside of what they termed fundamental Christianity to label themselves. But, IMO how can the two really go together? By definition an agnostic is someone who believes the existence of God is unknown, or unknowable. Another way to put it is that agnosticism holds that certain knowledge of the existence and nature of God and knowledge of immortality and of the supernatural world in general has not been reached and is unknowable or at least probably unknowable.

Does claiming that ultimately, God is unknowable deny the true revelation of God in Christ - the Deus Revelatus? I think it does. To say I don't completely understand a thing is reasonable, but to say the thing has in no way made itself known in another.

John 1: 18 - No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

I would be very wary of a Christian claiming to be an agnostic. We all have doubts - every single disciple doubted (none of them believed the witness of the women, and Thomas didn't believe the witness of the other disciples), but to claim God is completely unknowable is to place Christ on the bench, and render him and his resurrection meaningless.

Anonymous fritz November 11, 2013 3:55 PM  

I'm surprised, not one Texan here has brought up the issue of TCU. There should be a petition to strongly encourage the board of TCU to seriously contemplate changing TCU to TSU. (Texas Secular University) The Horn Frogs should be changed to "Horny Frogs." I have a family member who is a graduate of TCU. He went there for the engineering program and the frats, not the Biblical environment.

I'm a grad of Concordia U in Austin. Chapel is not required, although if you are enrolled in a church work program, your lack of attendance will be noted by both the faculty and your peers. What do think would happen to say a student body president, who regularly attended chapel, confessed the Apostle Creed, and then came out saying he was an atheist and proud of it? That person would not need to be expelled. Shaming him publicly is even worse. He would extricate himself without force.

Again, this goes back to "blaming them" vs. "blaming US." Who's the real culprit here? I recall a sermon that the prophet Amos once gave. What happened there? History is continually repeating itself.

I can see a day when the USA will be conquered by either China or Russia. (or possibly both). China and Russia's overall demographic makeup will be more Christian than the USA. That day could surely come.

If the American people continually wish to pay ransom to their chosen overlords, then so be it. America and Americans deserve their chosen fate and destiny ...

Oh, and Happy Veterans Day ...

Anonymous Anonymous November 11, 2013 3:57 PM  

Okay, a lot of the problem here seems to be coming down to how 'faith' is defined.

Maybe more how agnostic is defined, maybe you should provide yours. I pulled the following off the web, Webster.

1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
2: a person who is unwilling to commit to an opinion about something

one who is not committed

Given that part of the definition I would say no, an Agnostic can’t be a Christian.
Now if you want to define “Agnostic” as someone who has doubts then, sure, absolutely, an “Agnostic” can be a Christian. But I have to say I don’t really agree with that definition for Agnostic.

Blogger Booch Paradise November 11, 2013 4:02 PM  

@ Crude
I believe that the book of James lays out a very good definition of what faith is. Faith is not absolute confidence in a belief, but enough conviction in it to act on it. So if someone says that they believe in God but lives like an atheist, then they don't have faith, and should not expect salvation. I can't say that the converse is true, because to live as though you believe in God in part means proclaiming His name and glory. But as to your point, if someone is living their life in such a way that their actions are driven by an assumption that God is real, then they have faith.

And in all seriousness, if this is anything more than a hypothetical for either you or someone you know, let us know so that we can pray for the person struggling with doubt.

Anonymous Noah B. November 11, 2013 4:05 PM  

"I'm surprised, not one Texan here has brought up the issue of TCU."

TCU has been that way for as long as anyone alive can remember. It was like that when I went there, it was like that when my grandparents went there.

Blogger Crude November 11, 2013 4:05 PM  

Booch Paradise,

No, this really is just a point of interest for me - thank you for your offer. Mostly I've been wondering if it's possible for Christians to make concerted overtures towards agnostics, as agnostics, to join their faith. There's a lot of (and a diversity of) Christians here, so I figured I'd ask.

Blogger Crude November 11, 2013 4:09 PM  

rufusdog,

Maybe more how agnostic is defined, maybe you should provide yours. I pulled the following off the web, Webster.

I don't think that really helps here, because a lot of that is going to turn on the limits of knowledge. Is God 'unknown' wholly? Most Christians would agree. But God can be known partly. What about our knowledge possibly being flawed? St Paul opens up to that possibility, it seems. So 'being wrong' is a live option for Christians. But if you're possibly wrong, do you have knowledge?

I agree that 'committed' is where things get interesting. Can you commit without certainty? That certainly seems possible.

Blogger James Dixon November 11, 2013 4:14 PM  

> By definition an agnostic is someone who believes the existence of God is unknown, or unknowable.

With the caveat of by reason alone, I'd say that's correct. Even an agnostic should be willing to admit that God could make himself known to someone in such a manner that they could be certain of his existence. But that evidence is unlikely to be acceptable to anyone else.

But where reason alone fails, faith steps in.

Anonymous Stickwick November 11, 2013 4:33 PM  

fritz: I'm surprised, not one Texan here has brought up the issue of TCU. There should be a petition to strongly encourage the board of TCU to seriously contemplate changing TCU to TSU. (Texas Secular University) The Horn Frogs should be changed to "Horny Frogs." I have a family member who is a graduate of TCU. He went there for the engineering program and the frats, not the Biblical environment.

I don't know what the situation at TCU is like, but I taught at another nominally Christian university in Texas for a few years and got an interesting lesson on just how little "Christian" can mean. When I asked one of the higher-ups if I could teach a seminar course on modern science and the Bible, he was fine with it, but warned me to expect significant resistance from the social sciences department. When I expressed confusion as to how there could be resistance to a biblical course at a Christian university, he let out one of those weary, cynical laughs and said something to the effect that despite the university's affiliation, the secular element was running the show. Why on Earth they ever hired non-Christian faculty to begin with is beyond me, but this just underscores Vox's point that once you let these people in, they kill the institution from within.

Anonymous cherub's revenge November 11, 2013 4:37 PM  

The surnname and the schnoz on that kid have my J-dar just about pegged.

Blogger Brad Andrews November 11, 2013 4:52 PM  

[Hbr 11:6 NKJV] 6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [Him], for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and [that] He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Note also that Thomas only doubted once (that we are told). We may call him "doubting Thomas," but that rapidly changed when he encountered the Lord.

That is likely the root issue, most never have a true encounter.

Crude,

You can't welcome an agnostic into fellowship in the sense you note. You can freely talk with them and seek to convince them of the truth, but they cannot be part of the body of believers by definition.

Anonymous realmatt November 11, 2013 4:58 PM  

This jerk off went to this school and ran for president just so he could do this. Communications major????????

Anonymous Gecko November 11, 2013 5:01 PM  

Here's one for the Ilk: how do you respond to people who seem to place the Great Commission above all else, and that interpret it to mean they should always be as kind, accomodating, and tolerant as possible? Myrddin's WWJD summary touches on it, but I want more fuel.

People generally whine that I'm too offensive when I confront those who attempt to subvert and undermine. The rabbits pat themselves on the back: "Thank you for showing Gecko how Jesus would respond." I couldn't care less about belonging to their pushover warren, but I do get the feeling of betrayal that I think C. S. Lewis was trying to convey in The Last Battle when all the little rabbitty critters allowed their once great Narnia to come to ruin for fear of Not Being Nice. They'd rather tolerate the deception and evil instead of a too-harsh condemnation of the same. "You'll scare him away from any chance at redemption! Buddy Jesus wouldn't do THAT!"

What about the man after God's own heart who had a thing or two to say to the disgraceful giant?

How do you justify being a Reepicheep?

On another note @JDC - isn't it telling that the vocal minority at your church were women? Mine recently amended its constitution to allow women to be non-voting members of boards. (WELS) I was the only "nay" vote. Your comments resonate.

Anonymous Jonathan November 11, 2013 5:19 PM  

Next Fall's welcoming materials for incoming freshmen will read as follows:

Welcome to Northwest Christian University, where we are committed to teaching you to communicate "Fuck You" to as many of your friends, as hard as possible.

Anonymous Anonymous November 11, 2013 5:20 PM  

isn't it telling that the vocal minority at your church were women?

The butt-hurtness and solipsism were running wild in the hen-house. What added to the sense of outrage was that the excluded members were female (I wonder if the same women would have so adamantly opposed had it been to men? My guess is no.) To add to the hilarity, the women were constantly attempting to drag their husbands into the conversation, "my husband stated he will never come to your church again," and "my husband said if he sees you he is going to have a hard time not punching you in the face," and "my husband was up in arms when I told him what was going on." I remember commenting to one gal who stormed into my office threatening to write an editorial in the local newspaper, "mam, it's hard to take someone seriously when I know for a fact you haven't been to church in at least 2 years. I know this because I have been here for 2 years, and have never seen you."

Anonymous Jonathan November 11, 2013 5:21 PM  

Alternately:

Welcome to Northwest Christian University, Fuck You, we're learning.

h/t Idiocracy

Anonymous daddynichol November 11, 2013 5:21 PM  

Squishy Christianity sez, "Oooooh. Jesus loves everybody and we're all going to heaven!!"

However, Jesus was even tough on his own apostles. <a href="http://biblehub.com/kj2000/matthew/16.htm>Peter found out the hard way</a>

Anonymous daddynichol November 11, 2013 5:25 PM  

Crap. I screwed up the link.

Matthew 16: 21-23

Read it.

Blogger Eric Wilson November 11, 2013 5:31 PM  

Gecko,

Was it your congregation or the entire WELS that voted for that?

Anonymous fritz November 11, 2013 5:33 PM  

I don't know what the situation at TCU is like

I recall the family members' commencement. It was a December class. At TCU, there is a divinity school. They conferred about 4 to 5 degrees. At combo of Master of Divinity and Ph.D and Th.Ds. Every single grad was a female. I caught my dad just bursting with laughter inside of himself. He is retired LCMS, out the St. Louis sem. Franzmann was one of his profs. [1]

These "growing" atheist mega-circuses are quite comical to behold. Do they serve popcorn? Especially "for the children." I can see a future interview with one of their Ring Masters:

Reporter: "I see you just accepted fellowship with the Church of God Galactic."

Ring Master: "Well yeah. We think it would be really cool to have the word "Galactic" up on our front sign."

Reporter: "That's it?"

Ring Master: "Well, yeah. Pretty much." [picking his/her nose]

Reporter: "What do you think of William Bainbridge?"

Ring Master: "Who?"


-------------
[1] Franzmann wrote a quite popular commentary on the Book of Revelation.

Anonymous Gecko November 11, 2013 5:36 PM  

Eric,

Just the congregation. Ironically, there was one woman in attendance at the meeting. She spoke not a word. From what I know of her, I think she agreed with me.

Blogger Doom November 11, 2013 5:40 PM  

Oh, gee. Be real here for a moment. An institution, which has sided with academia over reasoned religion, is going to be killed by having an atheist as class president? That isn't so much of a suicidal step down a slippery slope as the obvious and direct effect of only being able to have one master and evidence of which master was chosen. If you still believe education is salvageable, fine. As is, it has become a wounded behemoth, thrashing around in death throws from having abandoned wisdom for reason and lost both.

Let it die in peace. You can't help it. Further, most who go to college don't seek wisdom or reason. They seek either the paper work that might help them get a job or confirmation that their b.s. has validity. You've been to college. You've watched the results of getting an "education" as it has impaled the West upon a spike of stupid, so that what was considered good and bad in reasoned times has become just the opposite of what it was.

Really? An atheist class president? And that has you stirred up? *sigh* Oh, fine. Get aggravated if you wish. Oh, I am sure, like God you are zen on this, just pointing it out. You have no anger or frustration, just pointing out a flaw. Sure.

Anonymous Steve Canyon November 11, 2013 5:40 PM  

This is a victory on this kid's part. He's going to parlay this into being a minor celebrity, like Hitchens and the rest of that lot, as being the guy that infiltrated a Christian School as an athiest. He'll go lecture, maybe spew a book or two out. He might even make a decent living at it; at least a living far better than what he would have had he graduated as just another communications major from some relatively unknown school.

I don't think anyone would argue that the average athiest is unselfish and altruistic in their motives. History has shown to the contrary. Perhaps when his notoriety fades and he realizes there are forces at work far greater than himself, he'll repent, see the error of his ways, and begin the "me me me everyone look at me!" cycle again as a born-again Christian.

Anonymous Jonathan November 11, 2013 5:48 PM  

I'm with Doom on this one. This is like finding a tombstone on a grave and inferring that the guy died by a being crushed by a large, falling stone slab.

Blogger Crude November 11, 2013 5:50 PM  

JDC,

Had a very painful incident happen a couple of years ago (I say painful cuz' I'm an INFJ - so unlike all you "T's out there, I feel your pain, and I am drawn to those who are suffering). A young couple approached me (they both sang on one of our praise teams), and informed me that they were homosexual, and were "coming out." I met with my elders and informed them of the situation, and stated categorically that they were out. No communion, no praise team...we politely showed them the door and wished them the best. To their credit they left without histrionics. The Elders were all in agreement, with some reservation.

Can I ask for more details on how you handled this? Specifically, what was the problem.

Was it that they were 'coming out' period (identifying as lesbians)?

Was it that they were non-celibate lesbians? Since apparently they were a 'couple'.

I mean, would your congregation accept a lesbian or gay man, if said lesbian or gay man was both 'out' yet celibate?

Anonymous Anonymous November 11, 2013 5:56 PM  

Gecko,

Maybe your delivery needs some work. I have to deal with confrontation at work frequently, telling people things they don’t want to hear and aren’t going to like.

Just look at them and tell them how it is, matter of fact, no emotion, don’t show any anger, just lay it out there. Sure they might still get angry or confrontational, but generally I find it at least goes better than if I approach them angry…I think it has to do with how some people avoid confrontation and about the only way they can bring themselves to it is if they work themselves up into a froth and then go tell that damn so and so he can go f#ck himself, bla, bla, bla.

Think Ben Stein, not Sam Kinison.

Anonymous zen0 November 11, 2013 6:28 PM  

Jonathan concurs: "I'm with Doom on this one."

Of course you are dear. As long as you remember that the point of the post was not to elicit outrage but to give another example of the enemie's playbook.

This is how the Saints creamed the Cowboys last night. Rob Ryan schooled the Saints on the Cowboys tendencies.

Blogger Crude November 11, 2013 6:40 PM  

I mean, would your congregation accept a lesbian or gay man, if said lesbian or gay man was both 'out' yet celibate?

Let me qualify this. I mean celibate as in 'I believe same-sex sexual behavior is wrong' not 'I'm single at the moment.'

Anonymous Noah B. November 11, 2013 6:46 PM  

"This is how the Saints creamed the Cowboys last night. Rob Ryan schooled the Saints on the Cowboys tendencies."

That and the Cowboys just suck right now.

Anonymous fritz November 11, 2013 6:54 PM  

There is a specific someone in Paradise (drinking the most perfect double-bock), just laughing his ass off, saying "I told you so!":

Though our children live in the midst of a Christian world, they faint and perish in misery because they lack the Gospel in which we should be training and exercising them all the time. I advise no one to place his child where the Scriptures do not reign paramount. Schools will become wide-open gates of hell if they do not diligently engrave the Holy Scriptures on young hearts. Every institution where men are not increasingly occupied with the word of God must become corrupt.
-- Appeal to the Ruling Classes
(1520)

I see we have a most significant segment of LCMS here. To give honor to the aforementioned, in whatever remnant of America we find ourselves in, please make yourself familiar with Dr. Biermann's From Sea to Shining Sea, FREE download on itunes. Maybe we can do it right the next go-round. Should we be given such opportunity.

Blogger vandelay November 11, 2013 7:09 PM  

This reminds me of MacMaster University in Hamilton, Ontario, where there were two prominent Christian student groups. One was Campus Crusade for Christ, which as you might guess from the name was not much concerned about whether it offended or not. (Or it didn't at the time at least. It has since changed its name to "Cru" for some reason.)

The other was Inter-Varsity Christian Fellowship, which at the time (late last decade) was seriously discussing allowing non-Christian members into its leadership roles.

I didn't attend either, but I had several friends attending one or the other. When I think about them now I realize that most if not all of those who attended Crusade are still committed church-going Christians while the IVCF crowd, with only two exceptions that I can think of, have all either stopped going to church or have admitted to having become atheists or agnostics. It wouldn't surprise me now to find that even then their faith was running on fumes if not entirely absent.

IVCF was where the "cool", liberal Christians went, and Crusade was where the "extreme" Bible thumpers went. I didn't care either way since I wasn't a Christian (and still am not) but it should have been entirely predictable.

Anonymous TheVillageIdiotRet November 11, 2013 7:12 PM  

If the SHOWDOWN AT THE NORTH POLE hasn't happened yet in your www ,Well than you did not get this from me.
As always I was never here,and I not here now.

DannyR

Anonymous Jonathan November 11, 2013 7:12 PM  

@ zeno

The problem with focusing on the enemy's playbook is that one is ignoring what is wrong with one's own playbook.

Anonymous Anonymous November 11, 2013 7:28 PM  

Specifically, what was the problem.

You start by asking me how I handled it, then asked me to identify the specific problem, then provided a scenario...I'm having trouble figuring out exactly what you are asking, so i will just go ahead and answer the above question.

In our local church constitution we have the following:

Communicant members who conduct themselves in an un-Christian manner shall be admonished according to Matthew 18: 15-20; if they remain impenitent after proper admonition, they shall be removed from membership.

The key word here is impenitent. Unrepentantly entering into a homosexual relationship is grounds, in our church, for removal from the membership roles. We see no difference in differentiating the promiscuous homosexual from those who enter into a "life-long committed relationship."

Some call this excommunication...and we excommunicate unrepentant sinners and do so not because of moral convictions or feelings, but God's word. We consider this to be loving correction of a stubborn sinner. What I have found is that it usually boils down to this - "I don't think it is a sin..." We would respond, "We believe and confess that God's Word states otherwise."

Blogger Crude November 11, 2013 7:46 PM  

JDC,

The key word here is impenitent. Unrepentantly entering into a homosexual relationship is grounds, in our church, for removal from the membership roles. We see no difference in differentiating the promiscuous homosexual from those who enter into a "life-long committed relationship."

Alright. I didn't mean to make my questions confusing - I was just trying to zero in on what I meant. This sounds completely reasonable, especially since 'life-long committed relationship' rather strongly implies 'sex' too.

That answered the exact question I had in mind. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Anonymous zen0 November 11, 2013 7:50 PM  

Johnathan rejoins:

The problem with focusing on the enemy's playbook is that one is ignoring what is wrong with one's own playbook.

The two are intertwined. The one that adjusts more quickly gains advantage. But one cannot adjust to the enemie's playbook by just looking at one's own (which should have been memorized by now anyway)

Anonymous Zartan November 11, 2013 8:34 PM  


Vox is correct, we must not allow evil to enter any of our organizations.

The ELCA branch of the Lutheran church is gone. They don't see the problem with the following "standards"

A. Preaching or teaching in conflict with the faith confessed by
this church is grounds for discipline of ordained ministers.

4. Relationship to Family: This church is committed to the
sanctity of marriage and the enhancement of family life. Or-
dained ministers of this church are expected to uphold this
church’s ideals of marriage, family, and relationship in their
public ministry as well as in private life. Spouse or same-
gender partner
and children, if any, are to be regarded with
love, respect, and commitment. Departure from this standard
may be considered conduct incompatible with the character
of the ministerial office.

5. Sexual Matters: The expectation of this church is that an
ordained minister is to lead a chaste and decent life in word
and deed. In keeping with this expectation, chastity and absti-
nence are required outside of marriage or outside publicly ac-
countable, lifelong, monogamous, same-gender relationships
,
and chastity and fidelity are required within marriage or with-
in such same-gender relationships.


They accept homosexual relationships, but a pastor that had an affair, resigned, repented, and made amends with his wife cannot be re-rostered. The new *FEMALE* bishop will not even consider his re-rostering.

Disgusting.
Sola scriptura? Not for the ELCA.
Forgiveness? Not in the ELCA.
Sola gratia

Anonymous Dirty zen0 November 11, 2013 8:45 PM  

And now, the Hapless Politically incorrect Dolphins do manly combat against the winless Buccaneers. They should both have to wear pink even though it is November.

I hope for the good of all that no bullying takes place.

A military chorus asked the musical question, " O say does that star spangled banner yet wave"

Well, does it, punks?

Anonymous David of One November 11, 2013 8:50 PM  

http://christiannews.net/2013/11/09/christian-university-vp-calls-student-who-denies-existence-of-god-great-advocate-for-student-body/

It would appear that NCU has number of issues to address ... starting with one their VPs.

It also appears that the student body did not know about the hidden agenda of their newly elected President. On that basis alone, the student body should be able to oust their resident fraud.

Blogger AMDG November 11, 2013 8:51 PM  

"This is a victory on this kid's part. He's going to parlay this into being a minor celebrity, like Hitchens and the rest of that lot, as being the guy that infiltrated a Christian School as an athiest. He'll go lecture, maybe spew a book or two out."

I doubt he'll become another Hitchens, who was a formidable debater and prolific writer. He'll probably use the publicity to buy good grades with left wing professors and then use it in his entrance exam to Harvard Law School.

Blogger Crude November 11, 2013 8:55 PM  

I doubt he'll become another Hitchens, who was a formidable debater and prolific writer. He'll probably use the publicity to buy good grades with left wing professors and then use it in his entrance exam to Harvard Law School.

Agreed. The competition among 'young kids who want to be the next low-rent PZ Myers' is pretty considerable. Though I don't know that Hitchens was a formidable debater. He got his clock cleaned by Dinesh D'Souza, the Scrappy Doo of Christian Apologetics.

I don't think this kid is going to get much more out of this than 15 minutes of fame, unless he out and out establishes some secular-atheist group on the Christian campus itself.

Anonymous Jay November 11, 2013 9:01 PM  

I am agnostic, but value Christianity and such institutions, and completely agree with this post. This "Fromm" is obviously a liberal dipshit and should be removed immediately.

Anonymous Ye Of Little Faith November 11, 2013 9:11 PM  

"Christianity is not about acceptance".

Depends. Sin? Of course not. Human beings? Absolutely.

When Jesus was on earth, tax collectors were unpopular because they made people pay unfair amounts. The Pharisees and teachers of the law were bitter that Jesus was friendly to a tax collector named Levi. Jesus stated, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick” (Luke 5:31). He said He came to assist the sinners, not the righteous. Jesus does not limit His love. He loves everyone just the same.

Furthermore, the Bible states Christians ought not to be concerned about what another person is doing, but rather we should be concerned about our own actions because each of us will give an account of himself to God (Romans 14:12).

Furthermore, the Good Book commands us that we should pray for people who mistreat us (Luke 6:28).

Anonymous LES November 11, 2013 9:13 PM  

Eric Fromm has demonstrated that not only does he lack integrity, he glories in his lack of integrity. It is as if a model husband proudly announces that he is a bigamist or the star professional athlete gladly confesses that his success is due to steroids. On top of that they think they are extraordinary clever for fooling everybody.

Anonymous wcu November 11, 2013 9:19 PM  

Anthony, I was a college student who not only had a fairly large budget for a small college, but also was on the board for the college putting forth policies for the entire student body. Mr From was not only excited about vomiting his beliefs all over his Christain friends, but seemed so smug about deceiving them as well. He is a fucking wolf.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus November 11, 2013 9:23 PM  

He majored in treachery.

Anonymous Crude November 11, 2013 9:44 PM  

As an aside, I remember reading the ASA mailing list (American Scientific Affiliation - a Christian scientist organization.) At one point one of the members announced that he was now and atheist, and in fact he was 'committed to destroying Christianity'. The then-ASA head moved to ban him from the mailing list, arguing that while the list was open to non-ASA members, someone who out and out wanted to destroy Christianity was simply not welcome.

Several Christians immediately took offense, said it was censorship, and how the ASA should open itself to all manner of views and opinions and "if their faith was sturdy this wouldn't matter to them at all."

I wonder why conservatives can't infiltrate and topple organizations from the inside the way liberals do.

Anonymous wcu November 11, 2013 9:51 PM  

Student body president....damn

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus November 11, 2013 10:07 PM  

Crude: "I wonder why conservatives can't infiltrate and topple organizations from the inside the way liberals do."

That's a good question. Because in practice this is mostly how institutions hated by the left die.

Anonymous Anthony Walsh November 11, 2013 10:47 PM  

I wonder why conservatives can't infiltrate and topple organizations from the inside the way liberals do.

You're being ironic.

A.W.

Anonymous Crude November 11, 2013 10:48 PM  

You're being ironic.

Nope, serious question.

Anonymous Bobby Trosclair November 11, 2013 11:29 PM  

"I wonder why conservatives can't infiltrate and topple organizations from the inside the way liberals do."

I'm game. Does anyone have any nominations to float? How does one join MoveOn.org?

Anonymous Jack Amok November 12, 2013 12:01 AM  

Nope, serious question.

Well, I think you answered it with your story then. I think Conservatives favor civic institutions - the voluntary society - and put a great deal of effort into building them. Liberals hate civic society because it offers an alternative to the coercive government society. So liberals are perfectly willing to destroy civic society while conservatives are reluctant to do something so wasteful. I think these days, Conservatives are so frantic to shore up civic institutions that they are unwilling to kick anyone out, even the people wrecking it. They're just naïve - they think the liberal who joined is really, honestly interested in helping so we should just try to compromise with him...

That attitude needs to change.

Anonymous Idle Spectator November 12, 2013 12:02 AM  

Let's apply this using as stupid of an example as possible.

Can a person who is right-handed represent the left-handed students? No.

Can I have square-shaped students represented by a hexagonal student? No.
"I'm a square just like you, but with two more sides!"

What the fuck are these people smoking?

Blogger Eric Wilson November 12, 2013 12:26 AM  

Jack Amok,

That passes the smell test, at least.

Blogger Crude November 12, 2013 12:47 AM  

I suppose I should have thrown "Christian" into quotes. The ones who spoke up to defend Mister "I shall Destroy Christianity" were also the ones who thought the ASA's primary mission should be in convincing Christians that global warming was a dire existential threat which required massive government intervention to fight off, fighting the twin evils of intelligent design and creationism,etc. I also recall, back when the Climategate scandals broke, they initially made a feeble attempt to contain it by warning everyone that anyone who so much as posted a link to the articles referencing said emails were breaking federal law AND were sinners for violating the privacy of others.

Anonymous Vidad November 12, 2013 12:49 AM  

"Jesus does not limit His love. He loves everyone just the same."

Really? And where do you find that lil' nugget o' saccharine?

Anonymous Ye Of Little Faith November 12, 2013 12:59 AM  

John 4:1-42

Jesus broke with societal and religious customs to honor the dignity of the Samaritan woman. He associated with a woman of mixed origins, a moral and social outsider, in public and asked her for a drink of water. He demonstrated dignity of the most highest degree-every person is precious.

God has commanded his disciples to love all of humanity. When God communicates Himself, when He fills us with Himself, He fills us with His Divine Life, with His infinite Love, for He is Love. He confirms that we must share in this Divine nature for God to attract us to Himself because sharing His Grace is His nature.

Blogger Crude November 12, 2013 1:01 AM  

He demonstrated dignity of the most highest degree-every person is precious.

How about the people in hell?

Anonymous Jonathan November 12, 2013 1:21 AM  

@ zeno

If there is something systemically wrong with one's own playbook memorizing it is not very productive. My guess is that someone not able to specify the systemic errors in the anti-liberal playbook is likely engaging in those errors themselves.

Anonymous Ain November 12, 2013 1:49 AM  

Christians are supposed to be intolerant of sin. They should be proud of being labeled "intolerant", not bending over backwards to avoid it.

Anonymous Jonathan November 12, 2013 2:23 AM  

@ Ain

Followers of Christ are supposed to shun sin within what is their rightful sphere of authority. There is no warrant in the Bible to exceed one's given authority in shunning sin.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus November 12, 2013 2:37 AM  

If you're calling something "Christian" but when push comes to shove you don't think it is within a Christian sphere of authority you are a shill, inviting naive Christians to invest in something that purports to be Christian but isn't really Christian at all.

Anonymous zen0 November 12, 2013 4:24 AM  

Jonathan continues:

If there is something systemically wrong with one's own playbook memorizing it is not very productive. My guess is that someone not able to specify the systemic errors in the anti-liberal playbook is likely engaging in those errors themselves.

My guess is that you might be guessing wrong.

Anonymous Herman the German November 12, 2013 4:52 AM  

I haven't read the above comments yet..going to now, but I just had a thought....Wasn't "Fromm" one of the surnames associated with the Frankfurt School? Hmnn....

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus November 12, 2013 5:21 AM  

Herman the German, that was Erich Fromm; this is Eric Fromm. And how dare you even wonder about Eric Fromm's parents and their relationship to this.

Blogger James Dixon November 12, 2013 6:26 AM  

> Well, does it, punks?

Yes. Just no longer over the land of the free. We'll find out sometime this century (well those of us still alive will) if it's still the home of the brave.

> If there is something systemically wrong with one's own playbook memorizing it is not very productive.

If...

You might want to demonstrate that's the case before pursuing hypotheticals.

Blogger cmate November 12, 2013 6:50 AM  

"Here ya go:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/style-blog/wp/2013/11/06/nadia-bolz-weber-talks-in-washington-about-christianity-and-oprah/

Tattooed, profane, Wiccan liberal freak... of course she is a Lutheran minister."

We are all doomed...

Anonymous Ann Morgan November 12, 2013 7:26 AM  

**Lest ye be judged. Vox is ready. Are you?**

From my point of view, I don't see much good coming from Vox's particular set of beliefs. I do agree with his beliefs to the extent that if he believes in and thinks to be 'good' a 'God' that would demand that he kill 2 year old children without question, he will most certainly find himself with a 'God' that thinks it good for people to kill 2 years olds on demand, if he demands it. I disagree, however, that this would constitute a desirable outcome. Or that this particular 'God' is necessarily the only 'game in town'.

As for the atheist student president, I don't see any good coming from that, either. It is really not a good idea to invoke a 'God' you don't believe in, in order to obtain some political or social benefit.

Blogger Desiderius November 12, 2013 7:29 AM  

"Well, I think you answered it with your story then. I think Conservatives favor civic institutions - the voluntary society - and put a great deal of effort into building them."

Meh - I see a lot of liberals and Progs on the front lines doing the dirty work, along with the older conservatives who are going wobbly on the conservatism bit. Younger conservatives are very big on building their own family and half-assed institutions that pale in comparison to what they inherited and abandoned to the Progs. The Progs are now busy fucking up those institutions, so its harder to see the relative decline.

"Liberals hate civic society because it offers an alternative to the coercive government society."

Liberals hate the ties that bind civic society together, imagining that paradise is just around the corner if everyone would stop being so judgy. So they weaken the ties, and thus the institutions, and being non-judgy, they refuse to ask any questions when the state steps in to fill the gaps. A lot of people who call themselves Progs just get off on the coercion and would call themselves whatever it takes to get that sweet power.

"Conservatives are so frantic to shore up civic institutions that they are unwilling to kick anyone out, even the people wrecking it."

The ultimate blue-pill mangina move. Why wouldn't you want to be with us, we're desperate!

"They're just naïve - they think the liberal who joined is really, honestly interested in helping so we should just try to compromise with him..."

They lack first-hand experience with evil or manliness. Their reaction was how wolf became dog, so has its own value as long as the manliness is there as well. It's been missing.

That attitude needs to change.

Anonymous VD November 12, 2013 7:35 AM  

From my point of view, I don't see much good coming from Vox's particular set of beliefs.

Ann, neither I nor anyone else give a damn about your point of view. As you showed in the Juxtaposition post, you are such a hapless narcissist that you can't even figure out why anyone does anything if it is different than you, the specialist special snowflake, happen to do it.

You desperately - DESPERATELY - need to get over yourself. You are not the measure of the universe.

Anonymous FrankNorman November 12, 2013 7:53 AM  

Zartan November 11, 2013 8:34 PM

They accept homosexual relationships, but a pastor that had an affair, resigned, repented, and made amends with his wife cannot be re-rostered. The new *FEMALE* bishop will not even consider his re-rostering.

Disgusting.
Sola scriptura? Not for the ELCA.
Forgiveness? Not in the ELCA.
Sola gratia


Not much gratia among that bunch, by the sound of it.
But this fits the pattern of Liberal-Prog self-righteousness. The people who shout the loudest about toleration and not judging anyone, are usually themselves the most blatantly intolerant and judgemental.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus November 12, 2013 8:27 AM  

Zartan (quoting): "Spouse or same-gender partner and children, if any, are to be regarded with love, respect, and commitment. Departure from this standard may be considered conduct incompatible with the character of the ministerial office."

Just checking...

If an ordained minister decide that homosexual acts are an abomination as declared by the Bible, and therefore separated themselves entirely from a same-sex "partner", this would clearly not be "regarded with love, respect, and commitment to that same-"gender" "partner" because it would be a radical separation - and that might be be considered conduct incompatible with the character of the ministerial office, according to the ELCA branch of the Lutheran church?

And the only thing preventing that from becoming a "live" issue is that nobody in the ELCA branch of the Lutheran church would dream of taking seriously what the Bible has to say about homosexual acts?

Is that correct?

Anonymous DrTorch November 12, 2013 8:40 AM  

I'm game. Does anyone have any nominations to float?

I've wanted to infiltrate and alter UCS. They've got a good name and it sounds impressive when journalists cite them, even though most any schmo can join.

Anonymous Carlotta November 12, 2013 8:40 AM  

Jesus broke with societal and religious customs to honor the dignity of the Samaritan woman. He associated with a woman of mixed origins, a moral and social outsider, in public and asked her for a drink of water. He demonstrated dignity of the most highest degree-every person is precious.




Ahhh did you miss the part where he told her to stop being a whore?

Anonymous Mr. A November 12, 2013 11:14 AM  

"a 'God' that thinks it good for people to kill 2 years olds on
demand, if he demands it."

Please post the Scripture that shows God thinks it good to kill 2 year olds. I believe under the rules of the blog, you must answer with proof or retract this claim.

Anonymous Annalitic November 12, 2013 12:09 PM  

You're slipping, Ann.
You forgot to make a crack about the Bronze Age.

On second thought, shut up Ann.

Anonymous Ann Morgan November 12, 2013 2:51 PM  

Mr. A. wrote: **Please post the Scripture that shows God thinks it good to kill 2 year olds. I believe under the rules of the blog, you must answer with proof or retract this claim.**

Mr A:
1. First of all, I have previously posted several verses where God supposedly commanded the Israelites to kill babies. If you want, I will repost them late tonight when I have more time.
2. I don't actually believe, in fact, that God did tell the Israelites to kill babies. I think the Israelites decided on their own to do it, and attributed it to 'God' so that they could feel good about killing babies, rather than ashamed.

3. I did not, in fact, say in the post you are referring to that God thought it would be good for people to kill 2 year olds on demand. I said that Vox BELIEVED in a 'God' that thought it would be good to kill 2 year olds

Blogger Unknown November 12, 2013 4:57 PM  

Is there really someone in this thread decrying "legalism" which might be found on a Christian college campus?
(buzzardist 12:04 yesterday)

No wonder the Right has been losing for so long... Too much pride!

A.W.

Anonymous Ye Of Little Faith November 12, 2013 8:27 PM  

"Ahhh did you miss the part where he told her to stop being a whore?"


Leave it to a woman to ruin everything.

“Jesus said to her, "Go, call your husband, and come here." The woman answered him, "I have no husband." Jesus said to her, "You are right in saying, 'I have no husband'; for you have had five husbands, and he whom you now have is not your husband; this you said truly." (John 4:16-18 RSV)”

First, Jesus did not use such vile language. Second, Jesus is not mocking her. He is recognizing the truth in what she said. Jesus was assisting her to deal with her issue. He fully comprehended that she sought forgiveness. The Gospel informs us that redemption involves repentance and belief. Repentance is a human act; belief and regeneration is a divine act.

I suggest that you redeem yourself for trying to shame me, like some librul.

Anonymous Mr. A November 12, 2013 9:14 PM  

Ann Morgan: Post the verses. I am calling you, show your cards... or begone.

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