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Friday, November 15, 2013

Otherly Insane America

"The transnational progressive expects to maintain and expand modern, enlightened, prosperous, liberal society while opening up the borders that shelter that society to unlimited numbers of the least assimilable and most reactionary, most traditional and hidebound, least economically productive cultures on the face of the Earth. This wouldn't be so bad, or so insane, did they not at the same time insist that nothing be done to even try to assimilate the immigrants from those cultures to modern, enlightened, liberal values.

"The Tranzi also insists on enlightening the rest of the world, but rejects any and every means that might actually work.

"This, friend, is the other kind of insanity."


- from A Desert Called Peace, by Tom Kratman

As the novelist observes, the America in which we live is presently insane. It is not the insanity of Einstein, in which different results are expected from doing the same thing over and over again, but rather the insanity of Kratman's Corollary: "Insanity also consists of doing everything differently and expecting the same result."

Read the rest at Absolute Rights.

It's no mystery why Kratman is hated by the Left even more than I am. Kratman's work is categorized as military science fiction, but the reality is that he writes the same sort of ideological fantasy that most modern science fiction writers commit, but from a pro-civilization perspective.

The ideological barbarism of the Stephen Goulds and John Scalzis of the world is utterly and intrinsically opposed to Kratman's advocacy of civilization. Unlike the short-sighted, cognitively self-contradictory magical thinkers of the Left, Kratman possesses the ideological Key of Solomon: actions always have consequences.

And unlike most on the side of civilization, Kratman understands that civilized men will ultimately have to adopt sub-civilized measures if sanity is to be restored and Western civilization is to be saved. This, of course, is absolutely terrifying to the barbarians, who know perfectly well that they cannot survive any battle that is fought on anything close to even terms, which is precisely why they devote themselves entirely to convincing civilized men to lay down their intellectual arms.

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158 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous November 15, 2013 9:17 AM  

"...he writes the same sort of ideological fantasy that most modern science fiction writers commit, but from a pro-civilization perspective."

So...he too reiterates thinly veiled HISTORY?

CaptDMO

Blogger George Pal November 15, 2013 9:21 AM  

That peculiar religion that is Progressive/Leftism has as its main tenet the immutable conviction that faith is not faith if it cannot support antinomies. So what is right is right and one right will coexist with its antithesis on the basis of both being homologous, i.e., their both being right. This faith makes it possible, for example, to advocate for women and homosexuals, and, simultaneously, the free exercise of Islamic tenets.

I don't know how they come by their Gnostic revelations but obviously they have a compulsion, a lust, to destroy Creation's nature. It serves, I believe, as proxy for the war on God. They have no other way of getting at Him. Poor devils.

Blogger Matamoros November 15, 2013 9:31 AM  

VD: ...they devote themselves entirely to convincing civilized men to lay down their intellectual arms.

Not to mention physical arms via neutering the 2nd Amendment to allow the barbarians within to kill, maim, and conquer.

Anonymous a good ROI November 15, 2013 9:40 AM  

"...which is precisely why they devote themselves entirely to convincing civilized men to lay down their intellectual arms."

Literal arms as well.

Anonymous VD November 15, 2013 9:41 AM  

Amusing to see the trolls have already migrated there. They know they can't comment here.

Anonymous Feh November 15, 2013 9:42 AM  

Um, you do know that Europe is also run by insane Tranzis, right?

Anonymous VD November 15, 2013 9:47 AM  

Um, you do know that Europe is also run by insane Tranzis, right?

No, really? But it looks like Europe will get rid of its before America does. The EU will collapse before the US federal government. More stressors.

Anonymous dumbnigger November 15, 2013 9:48 AM  

Are you an idiot? A century ago the Irish, the Italians, and even the Germans were considered the same kind of filthy indigent savages that you and your privileged kind consider all the remaining minorities to be nowadays. The really sad thing is that you can't at least be a little more original.

Blogger Serge_Tomiko November 15, 2013 9:48 AM  

I thought you live in Europe?

Anonymous scoobius dubious November 15, 2013 9:51 AM  

"That peculiar religion that is Progressive/Leftism has as its main tenet the immutable conviction that faith is not faith if it cannot support antinomies."

You give them far too much credit by using big words and high-minded concepts. Progressive/Leftism is far, far simpler than that. It is based on hatred, and the will to force and to exterminate. It is based on hatred, which it imagines to be Revenge. Specifically, Leftists and Progressives hate:

1) white people,
2) Christianity,
3) men,

and, especially and most of all:

4) white, Christian men.

There is no contradiction in their minds, no circle in need of squaring, in simultaneously supporting Islam, feminism, and gay rights, nor should there be. All three work hand in glove to delegitimize, erode, and ultimately destroy white people and Christianity, and therefore all three are good.

Plato said that the polis is Man writ large; Leftism/Progressivism is merely seething Jewish resentment and hatred writ large, and spread abroad to other, less mindful, populations.

Anonymous Jed November 15, 2013 9:59 AM  

Isn't Kratman a pro-military neocon? All his books are about invading other countries - like a Rumsfieldian wet dream. A Desert Called Peace is thinly veiled manifesto about fighting the "War on Terror" -- the first scene is fricking 9-11 with airships!

Blogger George Pal November 15, 2013 10:04 AM  

scoobius dubious
"It is based on hatred, and the will to force and to exterminate."

But that's precisely what I concluded. The big words and high minded concepts were just a means of having them see themselves in their own intellectualism - should any appear here.

Anonymous scoobius dubious November 15, 2013 10:05 AM  

"A century ago the Irish, the Italians, and even the Germans were considered the same kind of filthy indigent savages"

Leftist Rule #1: The past is always identical to the present, if the analogy can be made to help spread Leftist poison. However, if in a given circumstance the opposite will better help spread Leftist poison, then in those cases the past is suddenly the opposite of the present. Switch back and forth depending on which position gives you temporary advantage. Remember, the truth is a social construct, nothing more.

Leftist Rule #2: All peoples, cultures, religions and histories are exactly alike and interchangeable and can be compared on precisely equal terms with precisely equal results, which is why we need diversity, so we can have a lot more of the exact same thing. When White Western culture is finally wiped off the face of the earth, we shall finally have achieved true, perfect diversity.

Leftist Rule #2, Corollary A: White people need to be destroyed because every other person on earth is exactly the same as white people.

Anonymous scoobius dubious November 15, 2013 10:08 AM  

"A century ago the Irish, the Italians, and even the Germans were considered the same kind of filthy indigent savages"

Therefore colonialism was good and was a blessing, because it filled Africa with the filthy, indigent, savage Europeans. Colonialism brought the blessings of diversity to Africa! Why did the Africans reject diversity? Why do they hate the Other? Why are Africans so mean?

Anonymous jack November 15, 2013 10:11 AM  

@Jed

Kratman writes from the perspective of a former Ranger officer in the army and his themes are rather closely analogue to present history and circumstances of planet Earth transplanted to a new planet. His thrust in the Peace series is to provide his adopted country Balboa [read Panama a la Earth] with a viable military force to be reckoned with. This force, ultimately, to rid Balboa of control and influence and occupation by foreign forces. To that end, yes, the Balboan legions do invade other countries as mercenarys for hire to the highest bidder, though Kratman's alter ego in the series, Carrera, is very choosing about who his budding legion works for and what they do. Their methods are practical and often brutal.
His Countdown series is not SF/Fantasy but sited on Earth near to modern day and involves another small and effective military force at work in a small South American country.
I've found all his writing enjoyable and instructive and will gladly read anything he has to say.

Anonymous Daniel November 15, 2013 10:12 AM  

A century ago? The Irish, Italians and Germans are still filthy savages! That's 90% of their appeal.

Anonymous Alexander November 15, 2013 10:16 AM  

Really, dumb?

In 1913 (that would be "a century ago"), the Germans were
- A recognized industrial powerhouse
- A grudgingly admitted Great Power
- Was known to have produced a great deal of top-tier scientific and artistic minds.

For all the Great War propaganda, I think our hypothetical turn-of-the-century WASP would see a difference between that and some Allah-screaming maniac who apologizes and asks for understanding for beheading the wrong person.

Also, what's this shit about 'remaining' minorities, as if 100 years ago there were many more than there are today and those minorities that left are the survivors of some great culling?

Consider this a direct question should you return here: What minority groups have disappeared between a century ago and today that would justify the use of the words "remaining minorities"?

Anonymous Jed November 15, 2013 10:17 AM  

"I've found all his writing enjoyable and instructive "

I've read A Desert Called Peace. His writing style was certainly enjoyable -- thought the plot was kind of messed up. The side plot of the UN kind of went nowhere...

Plus I was annoyed how every Earth nation had an EXACT replica on the new planet -- Balboa = Panama, Volga = Russia, Zion = Isreal, Whatever = England ... ruined the believability of the setting. So it was an allegory of Earth today then, not a real SF story of a future setting?

But it was his pro-war message/theme that I found kind of repulsive.

To each their own... I might try his other stuff, but I'm done with the "Invade the Muslims on Earth 2" storyline...

Anonymous epimetheus November 15, 2013 10:23 AM  

"Leftist Rule #1: The past is always identical to the present, if the analogy can be made to help spread Leftist poison. However, if in a given circumstance the opposite will better help spread Leftist poison, then in those cases the past is suddenly the opposite of the present. ".

In a recent debate, a poli sci major told me that fascism is a right-wing phenomenon, the nazis were conservative capitalists, the nazis were not socialists, the Holodomor was not the result of socialist policies, and that war creates wealth. The really frightening thing is that this guy is likely to rise to a very high position in the liberal party of canada.

Anonymous The other skeptic November 15, 2013 10:35 AM  

We import serfs and expect them to value freedom in the same way our aristocratic revolutionary forefathers did. We import 21st century savages and expect them to behave in the same way 18th century civilized citizens once did.

It is not clear to me that those who push these policies have any such expectation.

I think they only expect the imports to vote a certain way and the middle class to pay for them.

In the language of class struggle, the tranzis have no solidarity with the middle class and actually have false consciousness.

Anonymous The other skeptic November 15, 2013 10:38 AM  

A century ago the Irish, the Italians, and even the Germans were considered the same kind of filthy indigent savages that you and your privileged kind consider all the remaining minorities to be nowadays.

Congratulations on choosing an appropriate name.

Anonymous LL November 15, 2013 10:38 AM  

@Jed

But it was his pro-war message/theme that I found kind of repulsive.

I truly wish we had had someone with the money, intelligence, and cold-blooded ruthlessness that Carrera has back in 2001 to just hunt down the enemy and finish it. Full on brutal execution of a doctrine of NO MERCY. As long as we are fearful of international judgment, we will continue to have our hands tied as Muslim nations kill our citizens and thumb their noses afterwards.

Keep burying your head in the sand that no-holds-barred equivalent treatment won't get the message across. You kill our women, we will kill yours. You collude with the enemy, you get crucified. You use the press to further your cause, we will use the press in counter campaigns.

Anonymous scoobius dubious November 15, 2013 10:48 AM  

"A century ago the Irish, the Italians, and even the Germans were considered the same kind of filthy indigent savages"

Scenario #1: A century ago, a white New England WASP girl marries a (gasp!) filthy, indigent Irish Catholic. They have three children, who marry a savage German, an indigent Italian, and another filthy Irishman. Each of the children has three children in turn; these children marry other WASPs, other Germans, other Irish people, and even some Scandinavians from Wisconsin. At the family reunion a century later, they all still look like they are an actual family; the white phenotype is preserved.

Scenario #2: In the present day, a New England WASP girl marries an indigent freeloader from Nigeria. They have three children; the children marry an Arab and a Pakistani, and the gay child marries his lover. The two breeder children each have three children, who marry mestizos, negroes, and Muslim subcons. The gay couple adopts four adorable Somali children, who between them over the course of their career will only manage to rape five white girls, a rather small output, all things considered. A century from now, at the family reunion, this family sort of resembles a fashion insert photo for an Israeli-owned jeans company, they have nothing at all to do with America or the West, and the white phenotype has been largely erased.

All moralizing aside, from a strict gene-pool game theory POV (leftists loooove them some science!), Scenario #1 is Good for White People, and Scenario #2 is Bad for White People. And if it is permissible for gays to ask, What is good for gays? And for Jews to ask, What is good for the Jews? And for blacks to ask, Where all the white women at -- I meant, What is good for blacks? And for Muslims to ask, How can I do my part to help Islam conquer everyone else? Then surely it is just groovy for whites to ask, What is good for Whites? and to act accordingly.

Anonymous patrick kelly November 15, 2013 10:53 AM  

"I truly wish we had had someone with the money, intelligence, and cold-blooded ruthlessness that Carrera has back in 2001 to just hunt down the enemy and finish it."

I don't think it was necessary to invade and occupy A'Stan or Iraq for years in order to accomplish this.

Anonymous dumbnigger November 15, 2013 10:59 AM  

Then surely it is just groovy for whites to ask, What is good for Whites? and to act accordingly.

Who said it wasn't groovy? It's groovy man, knock yourself out. But don't make the right-wing 'tardian mistake of thinking America is a white country for white people. There were "minorities" here freeloading the cotton and freeloading the railroads right from the beginning. You might say from when we freeloaded the land from those brown forestmen. Oh wait, that wasn't freeloading, that was just old fashioned elbow greasing head smashing.

Blogger Aquinas Dad November 15, 2013 11:14 AM  

H. Beam Piper nailed it in Space Viking lo those many years ago.Before him it was Chesterton. In the end Liberalism boils down to 'no rules, no standards except that the greatest good is to have no rules and no standards'. It is the elitism of the Communist who proudly proclaims that all men are perfectly equal and then demands that you bow to his demands since he is so much more intelligent and moral than others.

Blogger rcocean November 15, 2013 11:25 AM  

"Are you an idiot? A century ago the Irish, the Italians, and even the Germans were considered the same kind of filthy indigent savages that you and your privileged kind consider all the remaining minorities to be nowadays."

A century ago is 1913. It probably would've been news to George Bernard Shaw, Joseph Kennedy (Harvard Class of '00), Mencken, Dreiser, Puccini, and Marconi, that the Irish, Germans, and Italians were regarded as "savages".

Anonymous The other skeptic November 15, 2013 11:28 AM  

Rombama accuses the other liar of lying and says we need to import more minorities.

Anonymous civilServant November 15, 2013 11:42 AM  

And unlike most on the side of civilization, Kratman understands that civilized men will ultimately have to adopt sub-civilized measures if sanity is to be restored and Western civilization is to be saved.

Actions always have consequences.

Yes. One can see the libertarians oh-so-reluctantly adopting sub-civilized measures to ... excuse me? Save civilization? No. That is not their goal at all.

Anonymous DonReynolds November 15, 2013 11:58 AM  

Western Civilization has a choice when dealing with savages from non-Western lands....

1) slavery (including wage slavery): to bring in savages to be exploited either as outright slaves or as low wage workers. (This approach is preferred by the US Chamber of Commerce.)

2) alliances: partnership in trade and the use or foreign armies, building manufacturing facilities in low wage countries, proxy military forces, and foreign aid. Have the savages join our own military against other savages.....meaning, get sucked into ancient regional conflicts by joining one side or the other

3) segregation: allow savages to enter the country but confine them to living in ghettos or "their own" section of the city, but if too many, create gated communities for security of the Americans instead

4) guest workers: same as #1, except on a rotating and temporary basis.

5) exclusion: any limitations on the numbers of savages entering the country is going to exclude someone and to exclude anyone requires the same apparatus whether it is 1 or 1,000 or 1,000,000

6) compromise: means integration, without any act of assimilation by the savages, preferred by Catholic Charities

6) surrender: complete accomodation by Americans and their adoption of the ways of savages. conflict avoidance by imitation but not very convincing and does not fool anybody

7) genocide: wake up to the fact that it is no longer your decision to make and the savages will have no gratitude regarding the gift you have made of your own country OR any of your own squeamishness regarding mass murder.

Anonymous Clay November 15, 2013 11:58 AM  

Dear Vox,

If I may, I'd like to submit this for "Young People Saying Dumb Things Award".

V/iv Who said it wasn't groovy? It's groovy man, knock yourself out. But don't make the right-wing 'tardian mistake of thinking America is a white country for white people. There were "minorities" here freeloading the cotton and freeloading the railroads right from the beginning. You might say from when we freeloaded the land from those brown forestmen. Oh wait, that wasn't freeloading, that was just old fashioned elbow greasing head smashing.V/iV

Anonymous Stg58/Animal Mother November 15, 2013 12:00 PM  

Are you an idiot? A century ago the Irish, the Italians, and even the Germans were considered the same kind of filthy indigent savages that you and your privileged kind consider all the remaining minorities to be nowadays. The really sad thing is that you can't at least be a little more original.

You do know that the language of the US almost become German, right? Germans have been in this country almost as long as Englishmen. King of Prussia, PA, for example.

/trollfeed

Anonymous The other skeptic November 15, 2013 12:00 PM  

If you like your country you can keep your country.

(Famous political sayings.)

Anonymous DonReynolds November 15, 2013 12:14 PM  

If you like your country
AND you want to keep your country.....

you will have to keep others from taking it from you.

How you do that is not very important,
but if you fail it will only be because of what you did,
or did not do, in time.

Anonymous Mr. Stubby November 15, 2013 12:33 PM  

Yes. One can see the libertarians oh-so-reluctantly adopting sub-civilized measures to ... excuse me? Save civilization? No. That is not their goal at all. - civilServant

You remind me of the sort that beats a non-resisting man with a night-stick, yelling, "Stop resisting! Stop resisting," hoping he will lift his arm to deflect the blows, just so you can say, "Look! He's resisting!"

It never occurs to you that he would have every right to put a shotgun in your face and blow your face off of your brain bucket.

You have a monopoly on force and mayhem... and you want to keep it that way. Because if you can't convince your subjects of that, you know the gig will be up. Of course, then you'll just complain that they are taking your liberty away from you.

Anonymous cecilhenry November 15, 2013 12:48 PM  

AFRICA FOR THE AFRICANS, ASIA FOR THE ASIANS, WHITE COUNTRIES FOR EVERYBODY??

Anti-whites expect an entire race to disappear from the face of the earth without even mentioning, not even whispering about it.

Nobody's flooding Africa with Non-Africans and giving them free health care, affirmative action and special privileges.

Only White Countries are doing it, only White children are affected, and only White politicians are allowing it.

Anti-racist is a code word for anti-white.

Anonymous Porky November 15, 2013 12:57 PM  

So the way to preserve civilization is to act in an uncivilized way?

What are you? A neo-neocon?

Anonymous Krul November 15, 2013 1:07 PM  

And unlike most on the side of civilization, Kratman understands that civilized men will ultimately have to adopt sub-civilized measures if sanity is to be restored and Western civilization is to be saved.

These discussions always run into definitional problems with regard to the word "civilized".

Since when does "civilized" imply "pacifist"? Were the Greek, Roman, and British empires "uncivilized"?

Anonymous VD November 15, 2013 1:40 PM  

So the way to preserve civilization is to act in an uncivilized way?

Once the barbarians are inside the gets, yes, obviously.

Anonymous Porky November 15, 2013 1:46 PM  

Once the barbarians are inside the gets, yes, obviously.

You once told me that Christian morality was a defining characteristic of Western Civilization.

Are you now suggesting that in order to preserve civilization we must behave in an un-Christian manner?

Anonymous Daniel November 15, 2013 1:48 PM  

Porky, Rule .303 especially once your superiors have committed perjury regarding the order, is not uncivilized. It is, in fact, the difficult height of civilization.

Violence within civilization, to preserve civilization is civilization.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 November 15, 2013 1:50 PM  

Brutality is not uncivilized when employed properly. Those who claim otherwise do not understand civilization.

Rome, for instance, is often lauded as the last great civilization before the United States yet their brutality was astounding. Crucifixion alone is a testament to how the Romans were able to maintain dominance over their more savage conquests.

I'm not advocating such extreme measures, yet, but it appears to me that there will be blood. I don't like it and I don't want it, but more and more savages are strutting about thinking they own white people. The sad thing is, given our current welfare/warfare State, they are not far off.

Anonymous Daniel November 15, 2013 1:51 PM  

Are you now suggesting that in order to preserve civilization we must behave in an un-Christian manner?

Stop moving the goal posts, Porky. Besides - Jesus said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”

Sometimes, preparing well for bloodshed is the most Christian thing a man can do.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 November 15, 2013 1:51 PM  

You once told me that Christian morality was a defining characteristic of Western Civilization.

Are you now suggesting that in order to preserve civilization we must behave in an un-Christian manner?


Quit being a pussy.

Anonymous Anonymous November 15, 2013 1:52 PM  

Are you now suggesting that in order to preserve civilization we must behave in an un-Christian manner?

Was it un-Christian for Jesus to take a whip to the moneylenders?

You're gonna have to do better than that.

Anonymous VD November 15, 2013 1:56 PM  

Don't pretend to be stupid, Porky. I'm only going to humiliate you further if you insist on behaving like a teenager with Asperger's.

As a general rule, beginning any question with a passive-aggressive "Are you suggesting..." or "Are you saying...." is not going to get an answer. If you can't follow what is clearly written, that's your problem. Not mine.

History is clear. Hundreds of thousands of people are going to die because of multiculturalism. The only question is if they are mostly going to be on one side or the other. And it is clear that God loves his warriors.

Anonymous Krul November 15, 2013 1:57 PM  

Porky - Are you now suggesting that in order to preserve civilization we must behave in an un-Christian manner?

Not a big fan of the Old Testament, eh?

Anonymous Stg58/Animal Mother November 15, 2013 1:57 PM  

Porky,

Why don't you tell us what acting in a Christian manner entails? If someone is breaking into my house where my wife and children are sleeping, I have every right to crush his skull to protect my family. Does this apply to our nation as well, or does self defense only apply in my house?

Anonymous Jack Amok November 15, 2013 1:58 PM  

So the way to preserve civilization is to act in an uncivilized way?

There's nothing uncivilized about shooting barbarians.

Anonymous Stg58/Animal Mother November 15, 2013 1:58 PM  

And it is clear that God loves his warriors.

Let's get some ACOG's with John 8:27 on them.

Anonymous dumbnigger November 15, 2013 2:04 PM  

True Believers. You guys are no better than the colonialists and imperialists that brutally subjugated the places where these people came from to enslave them, except now your crying in your Cheerios that after destroying their homeland they decided to come to yours.

Really, you just need to be put down.

Blogger Desiderius November 15, 2013 2:04 PM  

A rough rule of thumb is that civilization seeks to maximize positive-sum games. In order to do so, it must contain some mechanism for breaking up negative-sum ones, if the proceeds from the negative-sum are undermining the ability to forms positive-sum.

I.e. Tit-for-tat. Prisoner's dilemma.

Attempt to establish cooperation, meet betrayal with massive retaliation to prevent others being betrayed.

The pacifist believes erroneously that Christianity is about transcending Tit-for-tat, whereas the transcendence is an emergent property of the strategy gaining dominance in a population, and betrayal becoming widely seen as a sucker's game.

Blogger Desiderius November 15, 2013 2:05 PM  

"Really, you just need to be put down."

Bring it. Reveal yourselves. We are ready.

Anonymous Porky November 15, 2013 2:09 PM  

As a general rule, beginning any question with a passive-aggressive "Are you suggesting..." or "Are you saying...." is not going to get an answer. If you can't follow what is clearly written, that's your problem. Not mine.

Then just come out and say it. What are you referring to when you say we gotta do some "sub-civilized" shit? And explain why it is uncivilized.

Anonymous Krul November 15, 2013 2:11 PM  

dumbnigger - Really, you just need to be put down.

You're a hypocrite.

Anonymous Porky November 15, 2013 2:12 PM  

Here, I'll help you. This is your definition of "savage" from that other thread.

Time preferences and inability/unwillingness to adhere to Christian morality and traditional Western European culture.

So it would appear that if we are to save civilization we have to (a) shorten our time preferences, (b) abandon Christian morality, and (c) eschew traditional Western European culture.

Anonymous WinstonWebb November 15, 2013 2:13 PM  

True Believers. You guys are no better than the colonialists and imperialists that brutally subjugated the places where these people came from to enslave them, except now your crying in your Cheerios that after destroying their homeland they decided to come to yours.

Undefined generalities.
To which colonialists and imperialists are you referring? Specifics, please.
Which places were subjugated? Specifics, please.
Which people were enslaved? Specifics, please.
Which homeland was destroyed? Specifics, please.
Who is the "they" that are coming to ours? Specifics, please.

Thank you,

Anonymous Concerned Rabbit Hunter November 15, 2013 2:13 PM  

"Rule .303"

It's usually just referred to as Rule 303. Only those in the know need to know what the application of rule 303 means.

Anonymous Mr. Stubby November 15, 2013 2:19 PM  

Are you now suggesting that in order to preserve civilization we must behave in an un-Christian manner? - Porky

Are you suggesting that when they come at you with a knife, it is unchristian to shoot them with a gun?

Anonymous Porky November 15, 2013 2:21 PM  

Are you suggesting that when they come at you with a knife, it is unchristian to shoot them with a gun?

Nope.

Anonymous WinstonWebb November 15, 2013 2:23 PM  

Are you suggesting that coconuts migrate?

Blogger Desiderius November 15, 2013 2:23 PM  

"Then just come out and say it. What are you referring to when you say we gotta do some "sub-civilized" shit? And explain why it is uncivilized."

Sub is different than un, but you knew that. Perhaps you can steal bases readily from your own conscience, you're unlikely to get away with it in this crowd.

War is sub-civilized. Surrender to barbarity even more so. To embrace barbarity as an end in itself uncivilized altogether.

Anonymous kh123 November 15, 2013 2:28 PM  

"Seek ye first the kingdom of God". I can see how some would see this as Nero fiddling as Rome burns. But I've always figured this is what Tolkien was harping on with the whole "one ring to rule them all" theme, pragmatism vs. transcendence, facing the moral dilemma - or temptation - of doing what might be an evil in order that good may come of it. And ultimately, the choice to forgo one race so as to run and finish another, possibly the same as with any other earthly situation contrasted with the eternal.

Not to say that every situation is as dramatic of an either/or at all times - we still need to eat, breathe, work, raise a family, secure hearth and home the meanwhile. But the Biblical message seems to always be about what takes priority, and in some cases the sacrifice needed at the moment of truth in order to hold to the eternal, counting the cost of all things, in all things.

Anonymous Harsh November 15, 2013 2:30 PM  

Are you an idiot? A century ago the Irish, the Italians, and even the Germans were considered the same kind of filthy indigent savages that you and your privileged kind consider all the remaining minorities to be nowadays. The really sad thing is that you can't at least be a little more original.

You start with an insult, move on to a false equivalency between yesterday's European immigrants and today's non-European immigrants, and then end with one of the oldest of slanders. I laughed.

We need better trolls...

Really, you just need to be put down.

Oh, and now you've moved on to impotent threats. That's surprising.

Blogger Duke of Earl November 15, 2013 2:34 PM  

Daniel: "Besides - Jesus said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”"

In context the sword was a Jewish short sword carried even by the largely pacifistic Essenes for defence against wild animals and robbers. It was a warning that whereas before when Jesus sent them out they would have both provision and protection, now they'd have to provide for themselves.

On the main topic, if a person, or group of people, want to kill or enslave you and your family/tribe/people then lethal force may be what is needed to stop them. Inviting that group into your own community is tantamount to cultural suicide. Even if the particular subgroup you are inviting in are not hostile, you don't have any way to determine that they are not.

Ironically the science fetishists, whose motto should be, "trust, but verify" trust without verification.

Anonymous Rock Me Not Unlike A Hurricane November 15, 2013 2:35 PM  

"after destroying their homeland they decided to come to yours."

India -- DESTROYED by teh evil Murricans.
Bangladesh -- DESTROYED by teh evil Murricans.
Yemen -- DESTROYED by teh evil Murricans.
Nigeria -- DESTROYED by teh evil Murricans.
Senegal, Gambia, Niger, Mali, Cote d'Ivoire -- all DESTROYED by teh evil Murricans.
Mexico -- JUST LOOK AT ALL THE RUINS!! The visitation of sheer DESTRUCTION of Mexico by teh evil Murricans. Oh, wait, those are Mayan ruins, and they're thousands of years old. My bad.

Let's not forget all those Arabs and Turks and Mughals who destroyed and pillaged and enslaved countless peoples and civilizations: they too deserve to be race-mixed out of existence, right? I can just hear the deafening cries of leftists everywhere, calling for massive reparations to be paid to whites and Christians for the centuries upon centuries upon centuries of rape, pillage, massacres, enslavement, invasion and land-theft visited upon them by the blood-soaked hand of Islam.

By the tomb of Harriet Tubman, thunder the leftists, those Muslims must PAY for what they did to white people!

Yes, leftists, you are quite right; let the reparations begin, and let them begin with the demographic eradiction of Islam, and with the destruction of all those Africans who so wickedly enslaved their brethren and sold them into an unknown bondage across the sea, in exchange for trinkets made in Portugal.

And then I woke up, and my legs were broken and my pillow was gone.



Anonymous DonReynolds November 15, 2013 2:36 PM  

Once the barbarians are inside the gets, yes, obviously.

Porky....."You once told me that Christian morality was a defining characteristic of Western Civilization.
Are you now suggesting that in order to preserve civilization we must behave in an un-Christian manner?"

The Constitution is not a suicide pact and Christianity is not a suicide cult. I suppose you would say the Crusades were un-Christian?

Anonymous Porky November 15, 2013 2:37 PM  

Sub is different than un, but you knew that. Perhaps you can steal bases readily from your own conscience, you're unlikely to get away with it in this crowd.

Ah, so it's a sliding scale, then? We don't have to act unChristian we can just act sorta kinda not really Christian but maybe just a little bit Christian with some non-Christian thrown in?



War is sub-civilized.

By what metric?

Anonymous Porky November 15, 2013 2:39 PM  

The Constitution is not a suicide pact and Christianity is not a suicide cult. I suppose you would say the Crusades were un-Christian?

Nope.

Anonymous Harsh November 15, 2013 2:44 PM  

Are you suggesting that coconuts migrate?

Not at all. They could be carried.

Blogger Tom Kratman November 15, 2013 2:45 PM  

"Isn't Kratman a pro-military neocon? All his books are about invading other countries - like a Rumsfieldian wet dream."

No, I am not a neocon. The only thing that con means in "neocon" is con man. They are suit wearing, clean cut, pro-force liberals, with vast faith - also quite unjustified faith - in their own wisdom and all around wonderfulness, and especially the reliability, ease and certainty of social engineering. That, boy, is liberalism. The books are about a lot of things, discusses in the context of military operations. I'm sure the distinction is lost on you.

Anonymous LL November 15, 2013 2:49 PM  

By the way, I would point out, this world Tom has created, and the scenario, is not a governmental war, it starts as a personal vendetta, revenge. One interesting point of it all is that the governments who hire his mercenaries put severe strictures on his behaviors but they still want to "win," and so he negotiates what he wants. It is important to note the independence of the legion from the government (at the beginning).

Blogger Tom Kratman November 15, 2013 2:49 PM  

"The side plot of the UN kind of went nowhere...

Plus I was annoyed how every Earth nation had an EXACT replica on the new planet.."

I wasn't aware that in a series, a lengthy series, every plot thread in a give volume must be finished in that volume.

Really? Where's Australia? And I've mentioned why _most_ countries have analogues. If you missed it, tough shit on you, but your having missed it doesn't reflect on me.

Anonymous Anonagain November 15, 2013 2:50 PM  

And here I've always heard that pigs are very intelligent, but this little piggy runs around squealing like a retard on crack - and even worse, he has delusions of intellectual grandeur, like he's some kind of Socrates.

It would be funny if I had any sense of humor remaining regarding the destruction of my culture, country and everything I value, but I don't, so he's not. Not at all. Porky is a loudmouth idiot who would keep his fat, lazy ass in the chair while his house burned down around him because water would cause damage.

Anonymous kh123 November 15, 2013 2:52 PM  

...Am reminded of a line from Gulag Archipelago, where Solzhenitsyn's recalling the series of events that led to camp uprisings, the first of which was the killing of stool pigeons in their midst.

Midway through saying how "sticking a knife home between the ribs of a stoolie" was truly efficient at halting the camp machinery of oppressing the zeks, he says something to the effect of:

"And as I write this, I have innumerable books that look down upon me in my study, finest literature from the humanists and philosophers, their gilded spines all reproaching me, saying 'Violence is never an option'; that there were other ways to struggle, to obtain justice. And sitting here in the comfort of my armchair, I have to agree..."

But, he goes on to say that if any of them were as oppressed and harassed as the zeks were in the camps, what else would they have done? Or could have done? How do you reason with a beast devouring you?

To each their own when the time comes. No comfortable or easy answers, especially, it seems, for those who count themselves (as Paul says) of a better country.

Anonymous Jonathan November 15, 2013 2:52 PM  

@ VD

Once the barbarians are inside the gets, yes, obviously.

What if they have been invited?

Anonymous Josh November 15, 2013 2:56 PM  

What if they have been invited?

Then shoot or hang the idiots who sent out the invitations

Anonymous Josh November 15, 2013 2:59 PM  

Mexico -- JUST LOOK AT ALL THE RUINS!! The visitation of sheer DESTRUCTION of Mexico by teh evil Murricans. Oh, wait, those are Mayan ruins, and they're thousands of years old. My bad.

Well, we did give them diabeetus...

Anonymous Anonagain November 15, 2013 3:11 PM  

A civilized man lost in the wilderness will have to resort to all kinds of sub-civilized behavior in order to survive. Now, the wilderness has come to the civilized man. This isn't rocket science, except to those who want the civilized man to be destroyed, then they'll twist and torture the reality so as to rationalize his demise.

Anonymous Porky November 15, 2013 3:16 PM  

Anonagain: "but this little piggy runs around squealing like a retard on crack - and even worse, he has delusions of intellectual grandeur, like he's some kind of Socrates.

You don't have to be Socrates to see the failure of "We have to act uncivilized to preserve civilization".

Truth is I find VD's idea interesting or I wouldn't bother. There's definitely a kernel of truth within the rhetoric. But without a coherent definition of civilization it falls flat.

Anonymous Concerned Rabbit Hunter November 15, 2013 3:16 PM  

"What if they have been invited?"

Before you accept an invitation you should think about the possible consequences and weigh up the possibilities.

Anonymous Concerned Rabbit Hunter November 15, 2013 3:17 PM  

"You don't have to be Socrates to see the failure of "We have to act uncivilized to preserve civilization"."

There is no failure. Demonstrate your resolve and they will not do stupid things in future.

Anonymous Krul November 15, 2013 3:21 PM  

Porky - You don't have to be Socrates to see the failure of "We have to act uncivilized to preserve civilization".

Truth is I find VD's idea interesting or I wouldn't bother. There's definitely a kernel of truth within the rhetoric. But without a coherent definition of civilization it falls flat.


Honestly I believe you're overcomplicating the issue.

Vox is saying that violence is necessary to save Western civilization. That's it. All this pedantic gumming over "un/sub/civilized this" and "Christian vs un-Christian that" just clouds the point.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 November 15, 2013 3:24 PM  

True Believers. You guys are no better than the colonialists and imperialists that brutally subjugated the places where these people came from to enslave them, except now your crying in your Cheerios that after destroying their homeland they decided to come to yours.

Really, you just need to be put down.


Come and get me. I dare you.

Anonymous DonReynolds November 15, 2013 3:25 PM  

@ VD

Once the barbarians are inside the gates, yes, obviously.

Jonathan......"What if they have been invited?"

If they are here illegally, then they were not invited.

But regardless of whether they are here legally or illegally......does that mean that they will leave when invited to do so? Better to clear the field of non-combatants before the shooting begins.

It is, of course, only to their advantage if they leave peacefully.
I am willing to let them pass. They can even take with them all that they stole.

Anonymous Stilicho November 15, 2013 3:27 PM  

Porky:

1) are you a pacifist?
2) if not, under what conditions is violence justified?
3) if yes, why?

Anonymous Anonagain November 15, 2013 3:29 PM  

There's definitely a kernel of truth within the rhetoric. But without a coherent definition of civilization it falls flat.

Gangrened limbs are cut off, they are not allow it to spread, yet everyone would agree that cutting off an appendage is not generally considered good for one's health, but quite obviously there ARE times when losing part of the body is necessary in order to preserve the rest.

You're too short and retarded for this ride if you can't understand the distinction between a defensive action and an offensive one, and you need to STFU because your continued blathering is not going to change this fact.

Anonymous Anonagain November 15, 2013 3:35 PM  

You don't have to be Socrates to see the failure of "We have to act uncivilized to preserve civilization".

Fail. Again. I never said one needs to be Socrates to understand anything. I said you imagine yourself to be some kind of very clever Socrates - as opposed to what you are actually showing yourself to be.

Blogger Tom Kratman November 15, 2013 3:36 PM  

"It's no mystery why Kratman is hated by the Left even more than I am. Kratman's work is categorized as military science fiction, but the reality is that he writes the same sort of ideological fantasy that most modern science fiction writers commit, but from a pro-civilization perspective."

Ya know, I don't generally claim that what I write _is_ mil sci fi, though that's the closest genre to it, for most of it. Instead, when asked, I say that it's political and military commentary and philosophy, with some sci fi more or less electroplated on. That, or that it's social sci fi or social speculative fiction. Someone recently commented - don't recall where I read it - that my books are "military procedurals" to match police procedurals. There's an element of truth in all of those, as well as in the idea of "ideological fantasy."

Lots of reasons why I am hated by the left, I suppose. I think a biggie is that I am seen as an invader on turf they consider especially their own. The only way I could mine more of that (because in this respect, if in no other, I am much like Bill Clinton; I feel their pain...and I like it) would probably be by writing a play, since the libleprs consider the theater even more their special ideological preserve than they do sci fi.

All that said, I am not, myself, especially ideological. What makes it seem that I am is a mix of projection and the optical illusion that lumps everyone some distance away on the political spectrum into an amorphous blur. I recall one comment, from some years ago, about me being a "true believer." Nothing could be further from the truth. I am not a true believer in anything of this world. What I am is a _true_dis_believer_.

Anonymous Harsh November 15, 2013 3:38 PM  

True Believers. You guys are no better than the colonialists and imperialists that brutally subjugated the places where these people came from to enslave them, except now your crying in your Cheerios that after destroying their homeland they decided to come to yours.

I'm low carb so I don't eat Cheerios. What else ya got?

Anonymous Porky November 15, 2013 3:40 PM  

@Stilicho

I'm not a pacifist. I'm a savage. We've had to fight against all you civilized bastards for centuries. So if you are going to come at us with some of our own uncivilized tactics I'd just like to know what they are. Are you going to resort to cannibalism? Are you going to call upon Baal to smite us? Are you planning to rape our women and impregnate them with your civilized seed? What?

Blogger Tom Kratman November 15, 2013 3:42 PM  

"You don't have to be a Socractes to see the failure of..."


The big logical flaw here, a flaw Socrates would never have allowed to pass, is failure to see the world, on the ground, as it exists, culturally and geographically. There are borders, physical and intelletual / emotional. There are differences. There is not one world. There are barbarians on one side of a border, civilized men on the other. The barbarians are not our brothers, they are our enemies, as we are theirs.

So while one doesn't have to be a Socrates to see the absolute imperative of destroying barbarism in as uncivilized a manner as appropriate, one does have to be a liblepr - opinionated, arrogant, and utterly moronic - not to see the failure of, "we must act in a civilized manner even if it destroys civilization."

Anonymous Daniel November 15, 2013 3:45 PM  

would probably be by writing a play, since the libleprs consider the theater even more their special ideological preserve than they do sci fi.

Friend, if you were to do this, I wouldn't be surprised if the Ilk wouldn't stage it. $5 at the door, homeless and welfare recipients get in free.

It'd be like Tracers, but a hell of a lot more fun, and no stage pyrotechnics but actual C-4 instead.

Anonymous Anthony Walsh November 15, 2013 3:49 PM  

"Porky"

You are bleeding all over the place... Like a stuck pig, one might say.

"scooby doo"

You give them far too much credit by using big words and high-minded concepts. Progressive/Leftism is far, far simpler than that. It is based on hatred, and the will to force and to exterminate.

No... "No" a hundred times.

Shall we first establish that Pride is a capital sin?

And, secondly, by the promotion of these Politically Correct ideals, the maintenance of a mask of legitimacy is maintained and thusly used to brainwash new acolytes. When the mask comes off, it is too late.

Whether subsequent generations will be as affected by their doctrines as those generations of the past - this still remains to be seen, S.D... But, the truth is that their belief system - which is complete with doctrines, martyrology, creeds, sins, and virtues - works to lower the natural response against them. Wherever the religion of Political Correctness is evangelized, sadness and chaos soon follow.

Know your enemy! We are not fighting a war of arms, but a war of memes and ideas.

"scooby doo", if you continue with your arrogant stance... Perhaps, I'll be less friendly in the future. You do us great disservice in looking over the established state religion of Political Correctness.

Listen:
Our Established Religion

Anonymous Anonagain November 15, 2013 3:50 PM  

Good to know what you really are, Porky. At best you're a waste of time - at worst, you will be one less bullet in the chamber. No wonder you are trying so very hard to convince us not to act in our own best interest.

Blogger Tom Kratman November 15, 2013 3:52 PM  

Jack: The roll on the floor laughing your ass off, frigging outrageously hilarious thing with regard to libleprs and A Desert Called Peace is how easily the fools are taken in by symbols and nomenclature. Who, after all, are the real conservatives in the series? I mean the genuine Tories? It's the corrupt oligarchy ruling Old Earth, rising in the Tauran Union, and initially in control of Balboa. Conversely, who is the revolutionary? Who drives out the old oligarchic regimes? Who sets up a [ limited and inadvertent, to be sure] socialist workers paradise? Who insists on certain equal rights for women and gays, paying for some of that right out of personal pocket? That they cannot - literally cannot - see these things says some terrible things about the collective leftist intellect, no?

Anonymous Noah B. November 15, 2013 3:53 PM  

You don't have to be Socrates to see the failure of "We have to act uncivilized to preserve civilization".

Or, as Rodney King said, "Can't we all just get along?"

Anonymous Jack Amok November 15, 2013 4:14 PM  

Porky, here let me help you:

Uncivilized: willing to kill people in order to take their stuff or to settle trivial disputes
Civilized: willing to kill people who kill in order to take stuff and settle trivial disputes, unwilling to kill people who don't do that
Postcivilized: not willing to kill anyone, thus allowing the uncivilized to rule through fear and intimidation. Cycle starts over...

Don't ask me to overlay Christianity on any of that, I'm not a theologian. But from the standpoint of civilized behavior, absolutely killing is part of it.

Anonymous jack November 15, 2013 4:19 PM  

@Kratman:

The only way I could mine more of that (because in this respect, if in no other, I am much like Bill Clinton; I feel their pain...and I like it) would probably be by writing a play,

Lordy, I love that! I plan on plagiarizing it first opportunity. Thank You.

By the way Tom, I started using lower case J on my name to show some distance from another Jack that used to be on this blog. Been some time now and never got over the habit. Capital it if you want; though the honor sent my way may be unearned.

Anonymous Concerned Rabbit Hunter November 15, 2013 4:24 PM  

"Conversely, who is the revolutionary? Who drives out the old oligarchic regimes? Who sets up a [ limited and inadvertent, to be sure] socialist workers paradise?"

And those of us who work like the writing.

Anonymous Stg58/Animal Mother November 15, 2013 4:24 PM  

True Believers. You guys are no better than the colonialists and imperialists that brutally subjugated the places where these people came from to enslave them, except now your crying in your Cheerios that after destroying their homeland they decided to come to yours.

I'm low carb so I don't eat Cheerios. What else ya got?


Maybe they aren't your Cheerios, so you could still cry in them. Maybe they are made out of a non-standard Cheerios material, such as spotted owl breast meat or gator tail. They could be your Cheerios then, that you would be eating and then crying in.

Anonymous civilServant November 15, 2013 4:35 PM  

Stand outside in the cold autum breeze, close your eyes, spread your arms, and feel the unseen wind on your face.

And it is clear that God loves his warriors.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PQ6335puOc

Anonymous Stilicho November 15, 2013 4:36 PM  


I'm not a pacifist. I'm a savage. We've had to fight against all you civilized bastards for centuries. So if you are going to come at us with some of our own uncivilized tactics I'd just like to know what they are. Are you going to resort to cannibalism? Are you going to call upon Baal to smite us? Are you planning to rape our women and impregnate them with your civilized seed? What?


oink

Anonymous civilServant November 15, 2013 4:37 PM  

It never occurs to you that he would have every right to put a shotgun in your face and blow your face off of your brain bucket.

The face never. The back possibly. If no-one is around to see it.

Anonymous Jack Amok November 15, 2013 4:41 PM  

Interestingly, if you follow the links at right to Alpha Game, and then follow the links there to Just Four Guys, you find an entry titled Non-Judgementalism and the Breakdown of Society. It discusses a psychological experiment called "the Public Goods Game" that makes some interesting conclusions about human society. Go read it, it's a good post, but bottom line, there are three main groups, termed "Knaves", "Moralists" and "Saints". Knaves won't voluntarily contribute to society. Saints will always contribute something regardless and apparently aren't much good at punishing people who don't. Moralists will contribute if there aren't too many free-riders, but if there are, instead of contributing to the common good they will use their resources to punish the knaves. You could apply them to the three categories I have above in my reply to Porky: knaves are uncivilized, moralists are civilized, and saints are post-civilized.

As they put it over there:

Unfortunately, modern liberalism has promoted the philosophy of non-judgementalism in our society. In this philosophy, paradoxically, the saints rail against moralists while giving knaves a free pass.

The post-civilized denounce the civilized for trying to keep the barbarians at bay.

Blogger Bernard Brandt November 15, 2013 4:42 PM  

I've been reading both VD's A Throne of Bones, Mr. Kratman's A Desert Called Peace, and also re-reading Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.

I've noticed in all of three of the above-mentioned books a tendency to eschew the sayings of 'The Gods of the Marketplace' (and in passing, while I think they could have better been described by Kipling as 'The Gods of Social Progress', I must admit that that phrase would neither rhyme nor scan effectively, which is why he didn't use it).

In essence, though, the problem with modern liberals, or progressives, or progs, or however these wretches are called or call themselves, is that they are True Believers of the current established religion of Political Correctness.

This religion does not allow such believers to consider such commonplace thoughts as VD, Kratman, or Gibbon indulge in. Thoughts like:

If you allow an inferior culture to invade your own uninterrupted, you may have to say goodbye to your own culture

If you allow mercenaries to fight your wars for you, you may find that those mercenaries are now running the show, and finally, that old favorite:

Si vis pacem, para bellum

I will leave the translation of the last as an exercise for the student, or for the lazy to google for themselves.

Blogger Revelation Means Hope November 15, 2013 4:42 PM  

Ha Ha ha!
There are still people out there who think that intelligent Free thinkers believe the Germans, Italians, Irish and so on WEREN'T the unwelcome invaders that they turned out to be.

Despite it being continually refuted on this blog about every 3 months.

What is even more amazing is how many of you accept that re-framing of the argument. And start arguing about how civilized they really were and can't truly be compared to the modern invader savages.

Methinks some of ye need to hie yourselves over to Alpha Game a little more often and study how to maintain frame control. I mean, can't you see you've already lost when you accept their re-framing into arguing about Germans, Italians, Irish and other immigration waves? You've lost. It's over. The pretty girl has already nexted you mentally.

It's no wonder Conservatives have been categorized as losers in my mental map. Because they are fighting a constant retreat in the face of continual onslaught by the enemy, and when they hold their ground for a couple years on an issue, they cry "victory" and crow. Ignoring that they are now 100's of miles behind their original border.

Anonymous Porky November 15, 2013 4:44 PM  

Jack Amok: "Porky, here let me help you:

Uncivilized: willing to kill people in order to take their stuff or to settle trivial disputes
Civilized: willing to kill people who kill in order to take stuff and settle trivial disputes, unwilling to kill people who don't do that"


Trivial is a bit subjective, don't you think? By your metric I'd say those little brown savages in the Subcontinent were considerably more civilized than those who killed for the trivial purpose of securing a trade route for tea and opium.

Blogger Tom Kratman November 15, 2013 4:44 PM  

"I'm not a pacifist. I'm a savage. We've had to fight against all you civilized bastards for centuries."

So we need to save you a cross somewhere along the Appian Way, Porky?

Blogger Tom Kratman November 15, 2013 4:49 PM  

And, interestingly...well, _maybe_ interestingly...a podcast from Baen, Part I, interviewing yours truly, here: http://baen.com/podcast/mp3/Baen-Free-Radio-Hour-2013-11-15-Kratman-Shadow-35.mp3

If you dig back over the last four podcasts, too, you can hear some poetry readings I did for Toni Weisskopf as part of one of her pet projects. The poems are two from Wilfred Owen (sorry, but in my book guts in battle trumps being gay), one Chesterton (Lepanto), and one Kipling (Pharoah and the Sergeant). The quality of the podcast is iffy; I'm on a cell phone, you may have to turn up the volume a tad.

Blogger Revelation Means Hope November 15, 2013 4:49 PM  

Also, relevant to this, Roissy has a link in today's, item #6, to a video that shows the barbarians living in Amerika at play.
Don't let your children watch it.
And I'm shocked that YouTube hasn't taken it down yet.

Cause nothing more raciss than showing truth.

Anonymous Jack Amok November 15, 2013 4:53 PM  

Trivial is a bit subjective, don't you think? By your metric I'd say those little brown savages in the Subcontinent were considerably more civilized than those who killed for the trivial purpose of securing a trade route for tea and opium.

Technically, Porky, that would be by your metric, since it's your subjective interpretation. But it doesn't change the matter at all. In fact, it tends to reinforce it now doesn't it, as the basic question being debated in this thread isn't whether civilized people should go trotting around the globe looking for barbarians to kill, but rather whether they should be willing to kill barbarians within their own society. If your characterization of the European actions in India is correct (and there's some room for doubt, but that's neither here nor there), then it just proves there are barbarous elements within a civilized society and those barbarous elements will get civilized people killed if they don't do something about them.

Anonymous Porky November 15, 2013 4:55 PM  

So we need to save you a cross somewhere along the Appian Way, Porky?

My prepper kit contains an ample supply of blue ass-paint. :)

Anonymous civilServant November 15, 2013 4:55 PM  

The post-civilized denounce the civilized for trying to keep the barbarians at bay.

Yes. This is true and trivially so.

But is is not the whole picture. The whole picture is that in addition to these there are some who pass themselves off as civilized but who have no use for civilization themselves - more specifically they have no use for anything outside of themselves. They long to resort to sub-civilized methods and will happily the first chance they get open fire on their targets - which are Most People. This is the Rest Of The Story which is hiding behind these professed desires to "save and restore civilization".

Anonymous Jack Amok November 15, 2013 5:00 PM  

So if you are going to come at us with some of our own uncivilized tactics I'd just like to know what they are. Are you going to resort to cannibalism?

No, you probably carry parasites and frankly I doubt you'd taste as good as your namesake.

Are you going to call upon Baal to smite us?

I think the idea is to smite you ourselves, but I'm not on the planning committee, so don't rule anything out on my say-so.

Are you planning to rape our women and impregnate them with your civilized seed?

Are they good looking?


Anonymous Jack Amok November 15, 2013 5:08 PM  

But is is not the whole picture. The whole picture is that in addition to these there are some who pass themselves off as civilized but who have no use for civilization themselves - more specifically they have no use for anything outside of themselves...

You really should read the post at Just Four Guys before you comment. What you're describing is the Knaves, the uncivilized. And yes, I know who you think you are talking about, but we've already established you don't actually understand libertarian thought, you're blinded by your own straw man concept of it. So please cork it on libertarians, you are willfully ignorant on the subject.

If you want to discuss libertarians, you first need to explain what Civic society is, and how it differs from Government, and how it fits into libertarian philosophy.

Anonymous Porky November 15, 2013 5:11 PM  

But it doesn't change the matter at all. In fact, it tends to reinforce it now doesn't it, as the basic question being debated in this thread isn't whether civilized people should go trotting around the globe looking for barbarians to kill, but rather whether they should be willing to kill barbarians within their own society.

And my point is that you have no idea what "civilized" even means. Shit, Jack, if killing and looting for trivial purposes are the hallmarks of savagery then the whole of the Gallic Wars was fought because a savage named Julius Ceasar wanted political power for himself.





Anonymous Jack Amok November 15, 2013 5:23 PM  

And my point is that you have no idea what "civilized" even means. Shit, Jack, if killing and looting for trivial purposes are the hallmarks of savagery then the whole of the Gallic Wars was fought because a savage named Julius Ceasar wanted political power for himself.

And then after a bunch of other battles happened because Pompey couldn't tolerate a rival and let himself become the tool of the Optimates.

I know what civilization is. You're the one who doesn't seem to realize civilized behavior includes killing barbarians.

Blogger Tom Kratman November 15, 2013 5:52 PM  

"And my point is that you have no idea what "civilized" even means. Shit, Jack, if killing and looting for trivial purposes are the hallmarks of savagery then the whole of the Gallic Wars was fought because a savage named Julius Ceasar wanted political power for himself."

At some level, civilization means a system for allowing something like the highest practical quality of life, for the largest number of people, for the longest practical time, taken collectively, for a given piece of ground, technological state, resource availability, etc. It is historically a local phenomenon, and has no necessary moral component wrt to outsiders. The Gauls were outside of Caesar's civilization. They had represented a threat in themselves, previously, with both Brennus and as allies of Hannibal. They were also, because disorganized, a route for much worse barbarians, the Germans, to get to Italy, as had been attempted in the past. As such, why should Caesar not have conquered them, to both remove the threat of the Gauls, and stop the Germans _early_ and _far_away_. The killing and looting...well, why not? What obligations did Caesar have to Gauls? Because they were people too? So were Stalin and Pol Pot. Because they looked a little the same? That makes no more sense than to hate someone for looking a little different. In short, Caesar was savage to savages and civilized to the civilized, as was perfect proper, just, and moral.

Anonymous civilServant November 15, 2013 5:58 PM  

What you're describing is the Knaves, the uncivilized.

I hardly can keep up with their own descriptions of what they intend. One need read only what is written here on this blog to get a very good idea of it but the talk of revenge and shootings and hangings and woodchippers is everywhere libertarians congregate. Their fantasy literature is always about how stupid and hapless their enemies are and how intelligent and good they themselve are and how they will set the world aright with their .308 and with their natural righteousness and with (because of!) their disregard for what anyone else thinks. What role everyone else will play in their "civilization" is clear.

And yes, I know who you think you are talking about, but we've already established you don't actually understand libertarian thought, you're blinded by your own straw man concept of it.

You mean I fail to buy into their fantasy about themselves. "God loves his warriors" - spoken from Italy. Good grief.

Not that they ever will act. Atheists have been described as moral parasites on the society in which they live. In the same manner libertarians are civic parasites on the society in which they live.

Anonymous Porky November 15, 2013 6:07 PM  

I know what civilization is.

If you did then you would be able to offer a coherent definition for it.

You're the one who doesn't seem to realize civilized behavior includes killing barbarians.

You said it yourself, Jack. Killing for money is uncivilized. Apparently the British Empire was the most uncivilized society in history.

Either that or you're kind of confused.

Anonymous Porky November 15, 2013 6:33 PM  

@Tom Kratman

You apologia for the Gallic Wars reminds me in no small way of the Bush Doctrine.

Blogger Tom Kratman November 15, 2013 6:35 PM  

So? Which Bush Doctrine? There were several, a point neither Sarah Palin nor her execrable interviewer quite grasped.

Anonymous Jack Amok November 15, 2013 6:37 PM  

You said it yourself, Jack. Killing for money is uncivilized. Apparently the British Empire was the most uncivilized society in history.

Either that or you're kind of confused.


Nope, you're just a little on the aspie side and can't quite grasp subtle distinctions.

Anonymous Falcon Punch November 15, 2013 6:41 PM  

Tom Kratman's stuff is pretty fucking terrible.

OK, so I can get past the neo-con politics and shit...but the writing...the goddamn writing...is so, so bad. There's zero creativity (Look! Totally not 9/11!) in it.

And quite frankly, I don't dehumanizing all Muslims, to the point of Kratman...er, sorry, Carrera casually shooting a six guys for no-other reason than being pissed-off at the beginning of the book, is a good way to go about "restoring civilization".

The Mary-Sue protagonist...the weirdly fucked-up morals...the cringe-worthy attempts at DRAMA and EMOTIONAL POIGNANCE...Carrera just magically managing to plow through any and all opposition and rarely facing any problems with resources (seriously, he obtains advanced military equipment as easily as buying a can of Coke at Walmart).

It's not good sci-fi...hell, it's not even mediocre sci-fi...it's just flat-out poorly-written crap. It makes Scalzi's derivative shit look great by comparison, and that is NOT a good thing. And if this is the stuff that is supposed to hail the triumphant return of sci-fi from its ruination by beta white knights and radical feminists...then God help sci-fi.

Anonymous bob k. mando November 15, 2013 6:46 PM  

JCclimber November 15, 2013 4:49 PM
And I'm shocked that YouTube hasn't taken it down yet.
Cause nothing more raciss than showing truth.



WorldStarHipHop.com

you don't ever have to worry about youtube taking it down, they think it's a point of pride and they host it themselves.

and they're getting bigtime ad money too.

Anonymous Cajin November 15, 2013 6:49 PM  

Not saying that I endorse it, but the lesson of the 20 and 21st centuries will be that in order to establish a place your future posterity, when you invade or settle an area, don't colonize the inhabitants and don't enslave or indenture either those inhabitants or import new ones. Better to wipe out the current inhabitants and bear the extra burden. Your future generations and current neighbors may hate you and what you did, but at least they can hate from a safe distance the problems they would have encountered otherwise.

Blogger Tom Kratman November 15, 2013 6:55 PM  

Falco:

Yawn.

Anonymous Porky November 15, 2013 7:00 PM  

So? Which Bush Doctrine?

The one about preemptive strikes to protect our liberty. Basically the justification for the Iraq war.

I can hear Julius Ceasar now: "The Gauls hate us for our freedom!"

Anonymous Porky November 15, 2013 7:02 PM  

Nope, you're just a little on the aspie side and can't quite grasp subtle distinctions.

Whatever makes your hamster spin, baby.

Blogger Tom Kratman November 15, 2013 7:06 PM  

Turn in your cross time eavesdropping device, Porky; it is _most_ unlikely Caesar would have said anything remorely like that.

The RIF, by the way, don't hate us for our freedoms. They hate us for the freedom we grant women.

Anonymous fritz November 15, 2013 7:06 PM  

Let's talk about American military heros: (some think fiction, but this was real. real history ignored by most)

When MacAurthur Burned Washington – Joining the British

The author makes generous time participating in the discussion post article. I would like to make special note of his comments at November 15, 2013 - 7:17 am and November 14, 2013 - 7:18 pm. Most poignant. Most indeed.

I see a novel in this. Perhaps a blockbuster film someday? Any takers? How about a 3D RPG game? Especially with an alternate history ending.

Anonymous Concerned Rabbit Hunter November 15, 2013 7:14 PM  

"It's not good sci-fi...hell, it's not even mediocre sci-fi...it's just flat-out poorly-written crap. It makes Scalzi's derivative shit look great by comparison, and that is NOT a good thing. And if this is the stuff that is supposed to hail the triumphant return of sci-fi from its ruination by beta white knights and radical feminists...then God help sci-fi."

You've convinced me.

I can't help myself. Must go and buy some more Kratman.

Anonymous Anonagain November 15, 2013 7:16 PM  

I can hear Julius Ceasar now: "The Gauls hate us for our freedom!"

I hear something quite different: Somebody cut off that squealing pig's balls and stuff them down his throat.

I don't imagine Caesar had much patience with yammering fools.

Blogger Tom Kratman November 15, 2013 7:20 PM  

That, Fritz, is but one example among many of MacArthur's unsound theology. He thought, you see, that there was a fourth person in the Trinity...

Words can hardly describe what an utter piece of shit he was, but this Brit came close: "He is shrewd, selfish, proud, remote, highly strung and vastly vain. He has imagination, self-confidence, physical courage and charm, but no humor about himself and no regard for truth, and is unaware of these defects. He mistakes his emotions and ambitions for principles. With more moral depth he would be a great man; as it is, he is a near miss which may be worse than a mile…His main ambition would be to end the war as Pan-American Hero in the form of generalissimo of all Pacific theaters…"

I detest the wretch. And I do not even think he was especially competent.

Anonymous pinzon November 15, 2013 7:22 PM  

Mr. Kratman,

In one of the first couple books, you referenced Muslims keeping goats and the positive feedback loop it caused leading to desertification in their world. Can you point to where I can find any books or research on that? The information I've found has been pretty vague.

Anonymous Porky November 15, 2013 7:24 PM  

The RIF, by the way, don't hate us for our freedoms. They hate us for the freedom we grant women.

Chalk up one more for the savages.

Blogger Tom Kratman November 15, 2013 7:26 PM  

They never quite seem to grasp, CRH, that they do not harm me but, rather, help. It's sad...but what the fuck, I cry for them on my way to the bank.

Blogger Tom Kratman November 15, 2013 7:30 PM  

Pinzon: Google "nomads and desertification." Here's one article: http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=5942024

They're not the only cause, but they're a significant cause and, worse, a cause that makes it very hard to turn a desert around.

Anonymous Concerned Rabbit Hunter November 15, 2013 7:31 PM  

"In one of the first couple books, you referenced Muslims keeping goats and the positive feedback loop it caused leading to desertification in their world. Can you point to where I can find any books or research on that? The information I've found has been pretty vague."

You can find some info here:

http://www.amazon.com/Mohammed-Charlemagne-Revisited-History-Controversy/dp/0578094185
http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm/frm/111009/sec_id/111009

Anonymous Porky November 15, 2013 7:35 PM  

Btw, Tom, I didn't mean that to be dismissive. Your definition of civilization was the most honest one yet offered here, and I appreciate that.

Blogger Tom Kratman November 15, 2013 7:46 PM  

No problem.

Anonymous Shibes Meadow November 15, 2013 7:57 PM  

Dear dumbnigger aka white, neckbearded troll:

Then surely it is just groovy for whites to ask, What is good for Whites? and to act accordingly.

Who said it wasn't groovy? It's groovy man, knock yourself out.


Thanks. Please call the ADL, the SPLC, MSNBC, the New York Times, ATF, FBI, and the Department of Homo Stupidity and let them know that you're OK with White identity activism.

But don't make the right-wing 'tardian mistake of thinking America is a white country for white people

But it is. Or was.

There were "minorities" here freeloading the cotton and freeloading the railroads right from the beginning.

Don't make the stalin-tard mistake of thinking that minorities somehow "built" America. Negro slaves and Chinese coolies "built" American in the same way that John Deere farm equipment and Caterpillar construction machinery build things. The difference is that John Deere tractors and Caterpillar dozers don't expect the guy at the controls to give them a free ride through life after the building is done.

You might say from when we freeloaded the land from those brown forestmen. Oh wait, that wasn't freeloading, that was just old fashioned elbow greasing head smashing.

Yes, just like everybody's ancestors did throughout history -- yours included.

Your attempt at sarcasm has failed. Please try again.

PS - We know you're white.

Anonymous Jack Amok November 15, 2013 8:04 PM  

And I do not even think he was especially competent.

A bunch of destroyed B-17s at Clark Field would seem to concur. Kind of hard to fathom, how he was caught even more flat-footed than Husband Kimmel but somehow MacArthur came out of his debacle as a hero. I guess a career of getting your name in the paper can pay off when you're in a tight spot.

Anonymous "1951" November 15, 2013 8:16 PM  

@dumbnigger aka white Internet tough guy, November 15, 2013 2:04 PM

[Whites] just need to be put down.

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED

I volunteer to be the first White guy to be "put down" by you. If you are man enough, and are willing to travel to my locality at your own expense, I will allow you the opportunity to "put me down".

As the kids say: "Come at me, bro".

Blogger Tom Kratman November 15, 2013 8:20 PM  

1951:

Right wing rule of racism number six (Kids, collect the entire set): 6. Nobody really thinks whites are as evil as portrayed by white liberals and black demagogues. If they really thought so, they’d be too afraid to ever leave the house, since a) there are a lot more whites, b) those whites are much better armed, c) they’re more likely to be veterans of the Army’s and Marine Corps’ ground gaining combat arms, and d) they have an historically demonstrated cultural aptitude for mass, organized violence.

Blogger Bernard Brandt November 15, 2013 9:18 PM  

Yo, Falco:

While Kratman is no Heinlein, nor is he a Zelazny, from what I've read of him so far, I'd put him up there with Pournelle in his capacity for presenting a plausible future history and the practice of future war, and with Clancy in his capacity to weave together scraps of stories into a consistent and compelling narrative. And so, like CRH, I must say:

MUST-BUY-MORE-KRATMAN!

Anonymous Shibes Meadowlark November 15, 2013 10:32 PM  

Thank you for your opinion, Shibes Meadow, it has been duly noted.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus November 15, 2013 11:11 PM  

Concerned Rabbit Hunter: "You've convinced me.

I can't help myself. Must go and buy some more Kratman."

This blog is dangerous to my free time, and occasionally even to my entertainment budget.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus November 15, 2013 11:41 PM  

Anthony Walsh: "Know your enemy! We are not fighting a war of arms, but a war of memes and ideas."

Right.

Anonymous Shibes Meadow November 15, 2013 11:42 PM  

Shibes Meadowlark:

Excellent. The more of my opinions that you note, the better educated and more civilized you will become. Keep up the good work.

Anonymous Eric Ashley November 16, 2013 12:56 AM  

Civilized...that which tends to support the formation and continuation of cities.

I'm on the fence as to barbarians vs. civilization, not barbarism vs. lawful behavior. As I've said before, its too bad the Highlanders did not beat the Yankees and the Lowland Planters in the War of Northern Aggression.

'Dies the Fire' by S.M. Stirling makes the argument that in a pre-tech society, in order for some to have a decent lifeystyle, you have to oppress others. Given that my ancestors are Vikings and Irish, and I'd likely be a pillager or a slave, but never a noble, I'm against this. That's two arguments against civilization.

Kratman seems to be more Jacksonian than Wilsonian as Walter Russell Meade's brilliant article. W was Wilsonian.

As to saying we are as bad as the imperialists and colonialists, I wish the British Empire had never collapsed. I don't want America to be imperialists because its not in our nature (that's a conservative argument, not a libertarian one.), but Britain seemed to do a really good job of it.

As to mapping Christian views, one Christian views are a lot wider than just Redemptive Sacrifice aka Tale of Two Cities. Two, I think you could have a Christian civ and a Christian barbarian society equally well.

The notion that Christians are somehow barred from war seems largely unsupported by reason.



Anonymous DonReynolds November 16, 2013 1:20 AM  

Eric Ashley......"The notion that Christians are somehow barred from war seems largely unsupported by reason."

People have different ideas about what Christians can and cannot do and still remain Christian, so reason would probably fail on that one. But even the history revisionists would admit to the historic fact that Christian nations have engaged in war, even with each other, throughout all of Christian history. I do not know of any time when Christians refused to defend themselves because someone thought it might look Un-Christ like. Christianity is not a suicide cult.

Anonymous Eric Ashley November 16, 2013 1:51 AM  

The Pennsylvania Quakers were in this line, I think, but it looks as if in practice it was more 'you over the mountain boys who bear the brunt of our policies need to live by our rules' rather like Good Liberals in Gated Communities telling good citizens in bad n'hoods how to live.

As to the last line, next thing you'll be telling me Jim Jones was not a good Baptist minister!!

Anonymous kh123 November 16, 2013 2:52 AM  

Jones was presumably socialist/communist, and was a self-professed atheist ironically enough.

Anonymous Eric Ashley November 16, 2013 7:32 AM  

That was sarc.

Blogger Whiskey November 16, 2013 7:12 PM  

This anti-White, anti-Christian stuff is routinely marked as "Jewish" when it is very accurately up-thread marked as another Gnostic Christian heresy. Or more properly a post-Christian, form but not content, Gnostic heresy. Very very old in Western thinking, complete with noble lies (Plato) and statism (Plato again) and utopianism (the Greeks in general).

That is not particularly Jewish as most Jews have historically understood it, being concerned with themselves, not the Gentiles, and God. You don't see until say, the 1960's, any Jewish theology concerning itself with White Gentiles let alone Africans or Latin Americans or South Asians and the like. Whatever one might say about Judaism, it does NOT NOT NOT claim to be universalist, transcending nations and people. Its Gods Chosen People, not the Colors of Benetton.

What you can say about Jews is that they are among the most vulnerable (for reasons of the Holocaust, if God had a covenant with them he did not keep it for the overwhelming majority who were guilty of nothing other than lacking power and arms to defend themselves) to the Gnostic Post-Christian heresy. Of worshiping non-Whites, as avatars of goodness and salvation, and "Whiteness" as original sin.

Witness the guy claiming to be Black, and that Blacks created wealth. That's laughable to any casual observer who could note that slavery retarded wealth save for a very, VERY few White plantation owners, and in particular technological prowess. The South had about a third of the railroad tracks of the North. Even Virginia the most advanced Southern state had only half the railroad tracks of more challenging New York, and a third of the steel furnaces of PA. Cheap labor is always a trap, always. But this attitude feeds the need to worship Black people as avatars of God.

As always, there is a whisper of truth in this heresy. Black people on average are superior to Whites in athletic ability, aggression, personal dominance, and charisma. This is part of different races of men, or as Steve Sailer puts it slightly inbred hugely extended families, having different characteristics in the main. Sure there might be Black guys with no athletic ability, and White guys with astonishing ability, but the smart bet 99% of the time is the other way.

I never figured dunking a basketball or running with a football was a mark of God's favor. But that's just me. Most others in the elite obviously feel differently.

Anonymous Dingo Unchained November 16, 2013 11:46 PM  

"That's laughable to any casual observer who could note that slavery retarded wealth save for a very, VERY few White plantation owners, and in particular technological prowess."

You do realize that shipbuilders, bankers, raw cotton merchants from the North, as well as the South, also contributed to blacks creating wealth...for whites. Not to mention the insurers that sold policies to reimburse slaveowners for financial losses incurred when their "cash cow" was injured or perished.

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