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Wednesday, December 04, 2013

He who shows up, wins

A Catholic priest mourns the corruption and decline of the Catholic family in reflecting how his parishioners have contracepted their parochial school out of existence:
A stranger came into the sacristy after Sunday Mass. In an incriminating huff he said, “I have been away from the area for fifteen years; where are the people? And now you are tearing down the school? I went there as a kid.”

I put my hands up to quiet him from further talking and I calmly said, “Let me ask you a question: How many kids did you have?” He said, “Two.” Then I said, “So did everyone else. When you only have two kids per family there is no growth.” His demeanor changed, and then he dropped his head and said, “And they aren’t even going to Mass anymore.”

I never thought I would be asking that question, but since I had to close our parish school, I’ve grown bolder and I started to ask that question more often. When I came to my parish five years ago, the school was on its proverbial “last legs.” In its last two years we did everything we could to recruit more students, but eventually I had to face the fact that after 103 years of education the school was no longer viable.

In one of the pre-closure brain-storming sessions with teachers, I was asked what to do to get more students. I replied, “Well, I know what to do, but it takes seven years.” The older teachers laughed, but the others needed me to state the obvious to the oblivious, viz. we need more babies....

I have modestly preached against contraception and sterilization, but for many of my parishioners it is too late. Most of them are done with raising more children. They have had their two kids twenty, thirty, forty years ago and some women don’t want to hear about the Culture of Death. They decide to go to other parishes where the pastor doesn’t prick their consciences.

I am reminded of a diocesan official in his talk to us young pro-life, pro-family priests twenty years ago. He said, “Yes, you can preach against abortion and contraception, but remember, you have to put a roof over your churches.” Now, our diocese is closing and merging these same parishes, but you know what—they all have good roofs.

Pastors, if the demographic winter or bomb seems someone else’s problem, try this at your parish as I recently did at mine. I took the last ten burials and printed out their obituaries. At Sts. Peter and Paul Cemetery we had six men and four women with an average age of 80 years. With the ten, I counted the number of siblings for a total of 45 and divided by 10 which came to 4.5 children per family. Then I counted the ten’s children and divided by ten. The next generation had 28 kids which I divided by ten and came to 2.8 per family. I then moved on to the third generation, the grandchildren. These ten deceased had 48 grandchildren from their 28 children. When dividing these numbers, I came to a figure of 1.714 per family. The national average number of children per household is 1.91; while the replacement level is 2.1 children per family.

I don’t claim to have answers on how to turn around a dying parish or diocese. In fact, I am more at a loss as to what to say than ever before. To defend the Church’s teaching against contraception and sterilization is like going back to ancient Rome and warning them about the dangers of indoor lead plumbing. No matter what you would say their only response back would come in various levels of volume, “But it’s indoor plumbing!” In other words, no matter the real threat to one’s physical health from contraception and sterilization, the immediate perceived benefits outweigh the moral and physical downside.
I'm not anti-contraception myself, but I am against the short-sightedness of small families.The Jews have it right and three is the bare minimum that any Christian couple should have, assuming they can have children. I understand that it is sometimes hard to see past the cost and the challenges that come with raising children, but I don't know a single family with children who regrets the youngest. And most of the families I know, regardless of size, speak a little wistfully about how it would have been nice to have just one more.

If we're going to win the future, our children have to show up for it.

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326 Comments:

1 – 200 of 326 Newer› Newest»
Anonymous JazzyB December 04, 2013 10:14 AM  

Ignore this question if you consider it too personal, but how many kids do you have?

Anonymous JazzyB December 04, 2013 10:17 AM  

My question is because of this: there are certain things that looks bad if you ask others to follow, but do not follow yourself. I believe this is one such thing.

Blogger Crowhill December 04, 2013 10:18 AM  

Yes. This is why I continue to have a little hope that things will get better in the USA. It's the conservatives who are having babies.

Unfortunately, so do the Muslims.

Anonymous Huckleberry - est. 1977 December 04, 2013 10:19 AM  

state the obvious to the oblivious

If anyone's looking for a bumper-sticker slogan for our times, here you go...

Anonymous Josh December 04, 2013 10:23 AM  

Unfortunately, so do the Muslims.

Hey, they're just family oriented natural conservatives!

Does anyone have any numbers on average children in a homeschooling household?

Anonymous MrGreenMan December 04, 2013 10:24 AM  

The aging women in the pews will clutch their prayer beads and recall their Jesuit instruction and ask when their next opportunity to pull the "D" lever to vote for a party that unabashedly embraces the abortion culture of death because WWPJD? (Since the Stupak Surrender, there is no such thing as a pro-life Democrat; the Republicans will pretend a little while longer; the Catholics love to vote Democrat because they would rather worship Caesar.)

All I needed to know about "conservative Catholics" I learned from being around them in college - if it wasn't the pre-med guy who said he'd most certainly learn how to perform abortions because it's a medical procedure he owes a woman - her body, her choice, he can pretend they're all ectopic - it was the Catholic girl who talked about visiting God at Easter and was just fascinated by Charles Darwin and maximizing her utility to the state at the expense of considering getting married or having kids as her immigrant parents who bled a lot of cash to send her to MooU kept asking her about..

Anonymous Anonymous December 04, 2013 10:26 AM  

I think it was Steve Sailor that made the point that children that you raise properly are a much more trusting source of information and help in managing you affairs in late age than some white collared dude in the beltway, like a form of insurance.

Anonymous MrGreenMan December 04, 2013 10:26 AM  

An E-Series Ford Van has capacity for 12, so there's a natural limit of 10 kids, unless you are willing to go Dugger-style.

Anonymous Huckleberry - est. 1977 December 04, 2013 10:27 AM  

Also, at least in areas in the Southwest, the plan to revitalize the parishes appears to be a full-on push for amnesty, importing Catholics from south of the border and converting the ones from Asia.
I'm sure that'll hit the Heartland soon enough, though the Heartland never struck me so much as a hotbed for Catholicism anyway.
Guess that'll be changing.

Blogger James Dixon December 04, 2013 10:32 AM  

The one great regret my wife and I have is that we never succeeded in having children.

Anonymous FUBAR Nation Ben December 04, 2013 10:33 AM  

Vox, what jews are you referring to? Most secular jews have 1-2 kids if any.

Anonymous VD December 04, 2013 10:33 AM  

Ignore this question if you consider it too personal, but how many kids do you have?

Consider it ignored. I don't talk much about my family.

Anonymous Brother Thomas December 04, 2013 10:35 AM  

"...I understand that it is sometimes hard to see past the cost and the challenges that come with raising children,..."


All by design of the wealthy elites who seek to reduce population levels. Almost everything promoted by the cultural elites is to destroy the natural family in order to reduce population levels.

You are a intruder on their planet. To them, you are no different than a bug you may find in your house.

Anonymous VD December 04, 2013 10:40 AM  

My question is because of this: there are certain things that looks bad if you ask others to follow, but do not follow yourself. I believe this is one such thing.

I don't give a damn about you thinking I might perhaps possibly maybe be a hypocrite. I'm not about to violate anyone's privacy to assuage your doubts. The case for more children doesn't hinge upon my behavior.

Is one a hypocrite because he tells you not to stick your hand in the fire after having done so himself?

Anonymous Josh December 04, 2013 10:43 AM  

Vox, what jews are you referring to? Most secular jews have 1-2 kids if any.

The orthodox and ultra orthodox who pop out massive amounts of kids. Unfortunately, they're all welfare queens because the only acceptable work for orthodox males is studying the Torah.

IIRC, the average children per ultra orthodox households in Israel is 5 or 6.

Anonymous dh December 04, 2013 10:43 AM  

This is a tough one. How do you convince people to have more kids?

Anonymous onejohn512 December 04, 2013 10:43 AM  

Had our first in '85 our 6th in '97, thankful, no regrets, many blessings.

Anonymous Dr. Kenneth Noisewater December 04, 2013 10:45 AM  

My grandparents each had 2 kids (total of 4), my parents had 3 kids, and amongst us my sister has 2. I highly doubt myself or my brother will ever have kids. Frankly, for me at least, I don't think women are worth the risk. There's plenty of other guys out there for them, I'm happy to be left alone.

Anonymous Josh December 04, 2013 10:47 AM  

Number of Children Per Home Schooled Families
1 6.6 %
2 25.3 %
3 26 %
4-6 25.9 %
7 + 6.3 %

So over half of all homeschooling families have 3+ kids.

Anonymous WinstonWebb December 04, 2013 10:48 AM  

dh December 04, 2013 10:43 AM

This is a tough one. How do you convince people to have more kids?


Increase the per-child WIC allowance.
Like Colt 45, it works every time.

Blogger Markku December 04, 2013 10:50 AM  

Increase the per-child WIC allowance.

Muslims say "yes please".

Blogger The Observer December 04, 2013 10:51 AM  

This is a tough one. How do you convince people to have more kids?

Don't. Allow them to indulge in hedonistic, pleasant genetic cessation.

Blogger Crowhill December 04, 2013 10:52 AM  

My question is because of this: there are certain things that looks bad if you ask others to follow, but do not follow yourself. I believe this is one such thing.

I don't give a damn about you thinking I might perhaps possibly maybe be a hypocrite.

Too funny. It's really amusing how people think they can demand a response from someone. On the Internet. As if Vox is going to lose sleep if somebody doesn't believe what he posts.

Anonymous Josh December 04, 2013 10:54 AM  

This is a tough one. How do you convince people to have more kids?


It's not about more people having more kids, it's about the right people having more kids.

Economic incentives that might help would be lower taxes, fewer zoning laws, increased child tax credits for net tax payers, increased wages. Lower housing prices.

The easiest way to do this would be to end the Fed and let our financial system collapse.

Anonymous Andy December 04, 2013 10:56 AM  

Score one for Humanae Vitae.

Anonymous RedJack December 04, 2013 10:57 AM  

I just found out that we are having our second child in July. After five years of trying!

We had hoped for three, but it looks like two will be it. Work is in the dumpster right now, and I was looking to move but that is on hold now till we get the healthcare sorted out.

But the author is right. The other thing he needs to realize is that those families with three or more kids would have not been able to afford the tutition.

Anonymous Josh December 04, 2013 11:00 AM  

Congrats RedJack!

Anonymous patrick kelly December 04, 2013 11:01 AM  

I regret not having more kids. The reasons for not having more were selfishness, laziness, , doubt, fear and pride.

My friends who have 3 or more have very energetic, happy, and smart children. Fortunately they all, even those in college now, still participate in the life of The Church and appear to still cherish practicing their faith.

Anonymous Richardthughes December 04, 2013 11:01 AM  

If we think its a breeding competition, we're all losers.

Anonymous Anonymous December 04, 2013 11:03 AM  

Mom was one of 14, Dad was one of 4, interestingly Mom’s dad and mom where not terribly religious.

We have three, looking at adoption…but I have misgivings and haven’t made up my mind yet what to do.

It’s always been on my mind as something I would like to do, but I haven’t gotten serious about it yet.

This seems to be a question of wealth more than religion…or I suppose it’s both, the wealthy seem to lose religion and an interest in having kids at the same time.
I worked an all summer camp for the children of the wealthy (uber wealthy) when I was 19. It was very, very sad. They had children there as young as 6 all summer, in an overnight camp. Really sad. From that point on I have always looked at the wealthy from a different perspective.

Too much money is poison to the soul.

Anonymous Curlytop December 04, 2013 11:03 AM  

Those who actually pay attention and have been here long enough can ascertain that Vox isn't a hypocrite regarding these things. His stance on retaining his family's privacy surpasses any one of our petty little inquiries.

@Josh
All good ideas. I would add better education and raising of daughters. Even so-called "Conservative Christian Families"...homeschooling to boot seem to put an emphasis on sending their daughters into debt by College as opposed to training them to be virtuous young ladies ready to become a wife and mother. It's truly insidious how this culture views children as burdens instead of the blessings that they are.

As our Catholic friends say, "The best way to show your children you love them is to give them a sibling."

There are many a family who would love to add to their brood but fertility and/or health issues prevent them in doing so. What a waisted treasure to see couples who can but won't for whatever reason.

Anonymous Cryan Ryan December 04, 2013 11:04 AM  

His observations on numbers of children parallels that of my small midwestern town.

What I find interesting is that while the boomers were the first to dial it back, each younger generation is doubling down and having even fewer kids than we boomers.

So not only are our younger generations screwing themselves and their children over, they continue to elect lying scumbags who will promise them the moon, while screwing them even harder. For a quadruple lifetime of hard screwing.

Maybe we just didn't teach our kids to feel good enough about themselves. Tsk.

Anonymous Anonymous December 04, 2013 11:05 AM  

This is a tough one. How do you convince people to have more kids?

More importantly... WHY convince them to have more kids? Just so a school they don't support in a religion they don't care about can stay open? Things change. The kids they did have LEFT their religion or became non-practicing Catholic. There are plenty of other private schools and churches to go to. Even small towns normally have three or four to choose from.

No one has a moral obligation to "future generations" to do anything. The present and everything in it belongs to the living. Let the future living solve their own problems.

--Hale

Anonymous Anonymous December 04, 2013 11:05 AM  

7+ billion people on the planet and counting. We no longer have healthy enough economies to support large populations as it is. I'm not going to weep that Catholic parishes are shrinking because Catholics no longer want large litters of children.

Anonymous Cajin December 04, 2013 11:07 AM  

We just had our third and it is difficult, though not impossible. My wife is a RN, but we've chosen to make the financial sacrifice and have her stay home and to hell with retirement (my retirement plan consists of suicide by x for the betterment of mankind, sort of Gran Torino-style).

As for Catholic schools, we sent our first child to one. It was 6K per year in our Southron state. For 3 kids, that would be 18K per year, minus any discounts (we're not Catholic for one). I understand the priest's lament, but if private schooling is a parent's primary concern for raising children, how can they meet that criteria?

Anonymous patrick kelly December 04, 2013 11:08 AM  

"This is a tough one. How do you convince people to have more kids?"

Examples and encouragement are the most convincing, but we've been preaching and demonstrating different priorities and values for way too long now. Go to college, have your fun young, establish a career, wait till you can "afford" children.....it's all from the pit of hell.

Can't reap a crop that was never planted.

Anonymous IG-88A December 04, 2013 11:10 AM  

Whites need to take a cue from feral blacks. Though with a twist, marry have lots of children. If you can't afford them, take the government handouts. Increase the number of whites, while at the same time, bankrupting the US empire.

Anonymous Josh December 04, 2013 11:11 AM  

What I find interesting is that while the boomers were the first to dial it back, each younger generation is doubling down and having even fewer kids than we boomers.

So not only are our younger generations screwing themselves and their children over, they continue to elect lying scumbags who will promise them the moon, while screwing them even harder. For a quadruple lifetime of hard screwing.


The economic structure today tilts the playing field significantly against having kids. Costs are higher and disposable income is lower.

A young married couple with student loan debt and reduced real wages are in a much worse position for family formation compared to twenty, thirty, or forty years ago.

Anonymous Matt December 04, 2013 11:11 AM  

I hesitate to respond to an anonymous comment, but I might as well mention this since it's such a crucial issue in population arguments generally:

Western nations are not contributing to overpopulation, even in theory. This is not opinion, it's mathematical fact. Catholic, protestant, secular, whatever - the advanced world is reproducing at sub-replacement rates. In some cases, very sub-replacement rates. Even if you think overpopulation is the worst thing ever, a Malthusian catastrophe looming on the horizon, we're simply not a part of it and increasing our fertility rates at least to replacement would not change that fact.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Countriesbyfertilityrate.svg

Anonymous Andy December 04, 2013 11:12 AM  

"It was 6K per year in our Southron state. For 3 kids, that would be 18K per year, minus any discounts"

They don't have multiple child discount? At our parish school the first is roughly $6k, second around $5k, third around $3500 and four or more are free (at least around 4 they are free).

Blogger Markku December 04, 2013 11:12 AM  

I'm not going to weep that Catholic parishes are shrinking because Catholics no longer want large litters of children.

Since it would appear that you and Catholics are ideological enemies, we don't expect you to. They are merely an illustration. If you don't have a group that you feel allegiance to, then from your own perspective you have no reason to have children.

Anonymous patrick kelly December 04, 2013 11:12 AM  

"If we think its a breeding competition, we're all losers."

The future belongs to those who are born.

Anonymous Sun Xhu December 04, 2013 11:13 AM  

Anonymous said: "7+ billion people on the planet and counting. We no longer have healthy enough economies to support large populations as it is. I'm not going to weep that Catholic parishes are shrinking because Catholics no longer want large litters of children."

Ah, you're one of those people.

People in the non-western world don't count.

Anonymous jamsco December 04, 2013 11:14 AM  

"The Jews have it right and three is the bare minimum that any Christian couple should have, assuming they can have children. I understand that it is sometimes hard to see past the cost and the challenges that come with raising children, but I don't know a single family with children who regrets the youngest."

Jamfam (my family) is doing their best. And no, no one regrets the youngest. Even when others have called him/her an unwise choice.

Anonymous Cajin December 04, 2013 11:15 AM  

"What I find interesting is that while the boomers were the first to dial it back, each younger generation is doubling down and having even fewer kids than we boomers."

My experience is just the opposite. Most of my friends and family are having 2+. Whether consciously or not, they seem to understand that there will be no retirement. They aren't betting on it. They're giving their kids what they can and hoping for the best. Just visited the country, where hunting and hard work are standard and they are having 3+.

Anonymous Samson J. December 04, 2013 11:15 AM  

I enjoyed the author's calculations. I was working out a similar thing with my wife the other day. My very Catholic paternal grandparents (whom I loved very much) had:

-six kids, two of whom have been childless;
-nine grandchildren - three of whom are 99% certain to turn out childless; and the most intelligent and academically successful (my non-Christian professor brother) is virtually certain to stop at one;
-five great-grandchildren thus far.

That may have been overly complicated for anyone besides me to care about, but the summary is: my now-dead Catholic grandparents have five great-grandchildren so far, and three of those are mine. The religious shall inherit the earth.

Anonymous Richardthughes December 04, 2013 11:16 AM  

I didn't say don't breed, Patrick, I said its not a competition.

Stuff / People. Basic math.

But, to put the cat amongst the pigeons, If you create life and believe there is any chance that it will spend eternity in torment, you're a monster.

Anonymous clk December 04, 2013 11:16 AM  

Actually I think we know how many kids VD has from past posts... but it is certainly his right to share and not share to any level that he wishes .. as it is for everyone here and that will be respected ...always.

I am one of 5, I have 4 and between me and my siblings we have 15 kids...... I don't regret a single child but 4 was enough for me... two in college, two more next year. But no regrets ever.. yes its hard, you make choices.. but I would gladly make those choices...

One thing I notice is that people tend to be older now when they finally have kids .. Men having young children in their late 40's which means they are 60's when they are 18... that seems really hard -- I cant imaging doing what I did in my 30's with the kids if I were in my 50's or 60's...

Anonymous Roundtine December 04, 2013 11:16 AM  

How do you convince people to have more kids?

Positive argument. Society is very anti-child. If you think having more children is a good idea, tell people. i.e. Grandma should ask when the next grandchild is coming, the pastors and priests need to push the idea.
Soft peer pressure. Most people conform to group behavior.
Monetary or other incentives. People respond to incentives. It has to be the right incentive though, child tax credits don't work too well for spurring pregnancies.

Blogger JartStar December 04, 2013 11:16 AM  

Would having three include adoption?

Anonymous Samson J. December 04, 2013 11:17 AM  

I also agree with the comment that virtually everyone wistfully says, "Gee, one more would have been nice." I feel that way myself; my wife has medical issues that may complicate any more pregnancies, but I'd like to try for one more.

Anonymous J December 04, 2013 11:18 AM  

"It was 6K per year in our Southron state. For 3 kids, that would be 18K per year, minus any discounts"

OK, first of all, I don't know how it is where you live, but around here, at a non-Catholic private school you'd be looking at $25-30K per child, with no group discount.

The local Catholic school charges $5,000 for one kid, and $12,000 for four. That is a STEAL compared to non-Catholic private school of any kind.

Anonymous jamsco December 04, 2013 11:18 AM  

Also, if you can't have kids, or even if you can, consider adoption. And bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

Anonymous CK December 04, 2013 11:18 AM  

"This is a tough one. How do you convince people to have more kids?"

Easy. You take modern and secular principles that people already accept and use it to convince them of having more kids.

First, true Darwinists would understand that his theory of evolution explained that survival consisted of creating the next generation. If you only have 2 kids, you're less likely to have a next generation thereafter than someone who has 5 kids, and even less than someone who has 10 kids. If you have truly selfish genes, you would want those genes to dominate, not be destroyed with sterility.

Second, most GenXers on don't buy into the myth that Social Security will be there to help us in old age. As such, we should revert to the old fashioned form of elderly care, the next generation of children (of course this will mean raising our children to think it is a duty to care for their elderly in caritas, unlike the "Greatest Gen" and its hellspawn Boomers).

Anonymous Samson J. December 04, 2013 11:18 AM  

Would having three include adoption?

I think so. If we don't have one more naturally, we are almost certain to adopt one.

Anonymous Sun Xhu December 04, 2013 11:19 AM  

JartStar said: "Would having three include adoption?"

Most definitely not.

Anonymous WinstonWebb December 04, 2013 11:20 AM  

Richardthughes December 04, 2013 11:16 AM
...If you create life and believe there is any chance that it will spend eternity in torment, you're a monster.


Aspies gonna asp.

Richard, I'm non-religious. But a statement like this has no basis. It's just you being a dick. Nothing more.

Anonymous Mike43 December 04, 2013 11:21 AM  

We had 3. The last 2, males, went to an all male Catholic HS. Expensive? Yeah, but totally worth it. Both got tons of money in scholarships that more than paid for their HS tuition.

We deliberately held at 3. I came from a family of 8, and suffered for it. So I wanted to make sure our kids had plenty of attention, resources etc. It worked for us.

Anonymous Cryan Ryan December 04, 2013 11:22 AM  

Josh,

I realize young couples today have massive college loan debt, massive car payments, massive underwater house payments, and minimal ability to earn.

This is why it is hard to watch them waddle around, tapping on $500 gadgets, 100 pounds overweight, stuffing large servings of poisonous food stuffs into their diabetic pie holes.

The neck tattoos and piercings are fairly expensive too, but they seem to be pretty common.

Perhaps it's personal choice that is the real problem here, rather than the fact that things are different now than in the 60's.

Anonymous Richardthughes December 04, 2013 11:23 AM  

Winston, let's keep is simple and factual.

1) I'm completely non autistic.
2) If you can't follow the logic or understand your part in things and the responsibility that comes with that, then you should have a little think about it.

Anonymous DonReynolds December 04, 2013 11:24 AM  

My Dad told me, if you wait until you can afford children, you will never have any. That was true 40 years ago, just like today.
I have no idea why people get married at all, if they do not intend to have children. Now that I am out of that business, I see no reason to get married again.
I never had any hope that I would profit by having children and I never expected them to be without immediate and long-term cost.
How much do children cost? ALL THAT YOU HAVE......no matter how much or how little that might be.......and no matter if you have one child or 15. And if you value money more, then you should not have any children.

Blogger Brad Andrews December 04, 2013 11:24 AM  

@James,

The one great regret my wife and I have is that we never succeeded in having children.

That is where my wife and I are. We tried raising 4 children (sibling group adoption of someone else's failure), but that just took a bunch of our time as they all headed back to their birth family when they became adults. Hurts like heck, but makes planning for the future very difficult. One is back living nearby, but is focused on some values more consistent with the birth family than ours.

@rufusdog,

Do some serious investigation before adopting. We were quite idealistic when we adopted over 20 years ago. The teen years hit us like a ton of bricks and really nailed our family. It is miraculous my wife and I managed to stay together through it to make our 25 year anniversary this year. The stories are definitely not all that good.

SpaceBunny noted a long while back she knew of some adopted children who loved their parents, but that was definitely not the case in our situation. Proceed with extreme caution and investigation.

I have no idea what to do about children stuck in the system though. Trying to raise them is almost a guarantee of personal flagellation. Not a good choice.

Check out my adoption blog at http://bradonadoption.blogspot.com if you want some mumblings on our experience.

The theory is great, the practice is rough in today's society.

Anonymous Asatru Heathen December 04, 2013 11:24 AM  

>My question is because of this: there are certain things >that looks bad if you ask others to follow, but do not >follow yourself. I believe this is one such thing.

I don't give a damn about you thinking I might perhaps possibly maybe be a hypocrite.

<Too funny. It's really amusing how people think they can <demand a response from someone. On the Internet. As if <Vox is going to lose sleep if somebody doesn't believe <what he posts.

Actually, I thought that the initial enquiry was both polite, and relevant. While Vox certainly has the right not to discuss his family if he choses not to (although I personally do not see how confirming the number of his children would violate their privacy), I do not think that it is fair to castigate the OP for asking the question. And I do not think it accurate to characterize that question as a "demand".

Blogger Aquinas Dad December 04, 2013 11:25 AM  

The Wife and I have 5 kids. We go to a Latin Mass parish where we are below average in the number of kids. There is also very good 'political socialization' there (i.e, the kids that have left the nest tend to stay conservative Catholic).
Sometimes I have to go to a Novus ordo ('normal') Catholic parish. I am always stunned by two things
1) Most of the people in the pews are old, even very old. Most of the adults at my parish are middle-aged
2) there are very,very few - or no! - kids
At my parish we are considering expanding the cry room because there isn't enough space for just the breastfeeding mothers!
We plan on showing up

Anonymous dh December 04, 2013 11:25 AM  

Would having three include adoption?

I was there, we adopted #3. I had testicular cancer and motility low. Came from a family of 6. It's better than nothing but not much.

Blogger Brad Andrews December 04, 2013 11:25 AM  

Second, most GenXers on don't buy into the myth that Social Security will be there to help us in old age. As such, we should revert to the old fashioned form of elderly care, the next generation of children (of course this will mean raising our children to think it is a duty to care for their elderly in caritas, unlike the "Greatest Gen" and its hellspawn Boomers).

I think they mentally know that, but far too many are not building families and children, but rather independent lives to convince me they really believe it.

Anonymous rho December 04, 2013 11:27 AM  

JazzyB: We know VD has at least one. But, for our purposes here, let's pretend he has zero. The point still stands--if you're not making babies, you're a cultural and evolutionary dead end. It's true whether the person saying it has no kids or twelve kids.

One of my biggest complaints about game/red-pill bloggers is that they seem to embrace the cultural swamp of zero kids, or one vanity child late in life, as it presents a target-rich environment for wannabe cads. I find it largely reprehensible, and indicative of a personality defect. That said, it doesn't make what they say incorrect.

I encourage you to purge your rhetoric of the kind of thinking that led to your question. It's an appealing form of illogic, but it's nonetheless illogical. It's also lazy. It's the go-to method for shrill feminists who want to knock down something they don't like but can't marshal an argument against.

Anonymous Sun Xhu December 04, 2013 11:27 AM  

Cryan Ryan,

It's completely a lifestyle choice, and it really started in the '60's/'70's. Married couples started choosing more heavily not to "sacrifice" their heavy consumption lifestyle simply to have children. It's even more pervasive today.

I can't count the number of people I have met who lament about being poor, yet they have big-screen TV's, cable TV, expensive cell-phones/plans, get new cars(even slightly used ones) every couple years, live in $250k+ houses, and take regular vacations. These self-centered children are the real problem.

Blogger Markku December 04, 2013 11:28 AM  

Actually, I thought that the initial enquiry was both polite, and relevant.

Vox's response to the initial inquiry was also polite.

Anonymous MeMyselfI December 04, 2013 11:29 AM  

@MrGreenMan

"An E-Series Ford Van has capacity for 12, so there's a natural limit of 10 kids, unless you are willing to go Dugger-style"

Both Ford E-series 350 EXT and Chevy Express 3500 EXT seat 15.

Anonymous Anonymous December 04, 2013 11:30 AM  

The other thing he needs to realize is that those families with three or more kids would have not been able to afford the tuition.

At the Catholic schools in my town, all kids after the first two are free, and there is financial aid available.

Of course, it's also true that, the more kids you have, the more sense it makes to homeschool.

Anonymous Pat Hannagan December 04, 2013 11:30 AM  

I'm not anti-contraception myself, but I am against the short-sightedness of small families.

Ha ha. Good one VD. Way to undercut your own post. Spoken like a true protestant fuckwit.

Anonymous WinstonWebb December 04, 2013 11:30 AM  

Richard,
1) I'm completely non autistic.
OK, I withdraw the accusation of "aspie", but stand by the accusation of "dick".

2) If you can't follow the logic or understand your part in things and the responsibility that comes with that, then you should have a little think about it.

Anonymous Asatru Heathen December 04, 2013 11:32 AM  

>>Actually, I thought that the initial enquiry was both polite, and relevant.

>Vox's response to the initial inquiry was also polite.

No doubt. I was responding to Crowhill's characterization of JazzyB's question, which I felt was unfair.

Blogger Tiny Tim December 04, 2013 11:32 AM  

Blood and souls must be offered up to the gods...

Innocent blood, that of children, is special and most prized by the gods...

Abortion is a sacrifice, an offering, and the dragon rewards those who feed him innocence.

Same with pedophilia, it is an offering to the evil one.

Moloch must be fed.

Blogger Aquinas Dad December 04, 2013 11:33 AM  

"7+ billion people on the planet and counting. We no longer have healthy enough economies to support large populations as it is. I'm not going to weep that Catholic parishes are shrinking because Catholics no longer want large litters of children."
one - overpopulation is a myth
two - describing kids as a 'litter' is cringeworthy, not edgy
three - I am sure that someday a girl will kiss you, just hang in there

Anonymous Cryan Ryan December 04, 2013 11:35 AM  

I visited an old college buddy recently, out of state.

He and his lady had long ago chosen to have no kids.

They've both worked their entire lives, and they have all they need. No need to work longer...

But what an empty, depressing, lonely, sad experience it was to visit them.

We have a purpose, and that purpose is to raise a family, to prepare them for adulthood, so that they may do the same.

Never was that fact so evident than while visiting my old friend...

Anonymous Richardthughes December 04, 2013 11:36 AM  

Okay Winston, don't have a think about it. Cause and effect can be difficult.

Blogger Tiny Tim December 04, 2013 11:37 AM  

Evil uses women to destroy the society as they can be emotionally manipulated far easier than most men (except a certain type of she-man...).

Women, having been given the vote, have assured our destruction.

Real men have been demonized and the members of the "she-man man haters" are more than happy to be used as a tool of the dragon as they destroy our culture and blame good men and women...

This can only, only end one way... blood sacrifice.

Blogger Markku December 04, 2013 11:38 AM  

Ha ha. Good one VD. Way to undercut your own post. Spoken like a true protestant fuckwit.

Catholics are so winsome.

Anonymous will best December 04, 2013 11:40 AM  

If you take away medicare/social security then the only viable retirement plan is to be on good terms with your kids. Which means you a) have to have them and b) need to have a few as insurance. This will happen naturally to the people in their reproductive years in the late 2020s when the house of cards starts to crumble

I don't buy nobody regrets the youngest. Sometimes things happen downs syndrome or whatever.

Anonymous Asatru Heathen December 04, 2013 11:41 AM  

>Catholics are so winsome.

Is that an intentional Firefly reference/riff, or have I just been thinking too much about science fiction recently?

Blogger Tiny Tim December 04, 2013 11:41 AM  

Cryan Ryan, same here when I visit my wife's 89 year old gay great-uncle. All alone, everyone gone, no family, no legacy, nothing except material goods he acquired as he was very wealthy and the talk of the town at one time. We sit there and discuss all of his treasures when we visit and talk about his partner who died 20 years ago. He is broken and sad.

Anonymous Pat Hannagan December 04, 2013 11:41 AM  

Catholics are so winsome.

It's got nothing to do with Catholicism vs Prodos as suc, the whole post was dedicated to this maudlin speech from some reprobate faux Catholic, tugging on the old heartstrings about the loss of western commitement as expressed through fertility and then:

I'm not anti-contraception myself, but I am against the short-sightedness of small families.

I mean; that's a fucking joke. Right?

Blogger Markku December 04, 2013 11:42 AM  

Is that an intentional Firefly reference/riff

No.

Anonymous Maximo Macaroni December 04, 2013 11:45 AM  

I truly liked that question and answer:

"How much do kids cost?"

"Everything that you have." So true and so beautiful.

Anonymous Pat Hannagan December 04, 2013 11:45 AM  

Wail Oh Mary, how bereft we are of children in this vale of tears.

Turn to us oh gracious mother,

after all, beseeching and gnashing,

I'm not anti-contraception myself, but I am against the short-sightedness of small families.

Really?

Anonymous Edjamacator December 04, 2013 11:47 AM  

I see this as the government's fault, which is mainly the fault of conservative parents who did not educate their own children decades ago as to why leftism is asinine idiocy. Maybe we wouldn't have the government we do now if people actually did better teaching their kids right and wrong.

As it is, "Whitey" has to work to feed his kids, so in the economic climate can't afford to do so all that much. Meanwhile, the government, hating Whitey and all he stands for, makes it way too easy for minorities to have kids. They don't have to pay for them when they're on the dole, and may even get some extra cash per kid, so what's the downside for them? They don't even have to take good care of them. Just list them on some paperwork and Daddy Gubmint will give you free cash money. And so, the government pretty much drags out its own suicide by encouraging those who will eventually drag it down to reproduce and discourages those who would be better for society to do so.

Blogger JartStar December 04, 2013 11:47 AM  

dh so you wouldn't recommend adoption except as a last resort?

Blogger Tiny Tim December 04, 2013 11:49 AM  

All of you barren 30 and 40 something's (barren by choice) are quite often a joke... to hear about your concerns: "I have to do laundry this weekend", "my mom calls me every Saturday and wakes me at 9:00am, that is my day to sleep in".

Lost and purposeless, but remain a legend in your own minds.

Nothing like a passel of kids to humble and hone character to a razors edge.

I have something I will die for without question, more than one... you barren (by choice) leaches have nothing to die for, not even yourselves.

Destroying the child had to be done to force a majority of people to live in nothing more than the moment. Barren adults live in the moment... adults with children look out 100 years, and we are furious. The system wants us plotting to get the new I-phone, not plotting to take our heritage back.

Anonymous Pat Hannagan December 04, 2013 11:50 AM  

I hope I'm not breaking the blog rules here but I in all sincerity have to ask,

Doesn't the line:

I'm not anti-contraception myself, but I am against the short-sightedness of small families. kind of, sort of, absolutely and completely undercut the entire premise of the post?

What sort of ghey assed line is that?

C'mon, I at least deserve an explanation. My children are depending on it. All 3 plus more of them.

Listen kids, we need more Christians: I'm not anti-contraception myself, but I am against the short-sightedness of small families.

Anonymous VD December 04, 2013 11:51 AM  

Ha ha. Good one VD. Way to undercut your own post. Spoken like a true protestant fuckwit.

Only an Irish Catholic could fail to grasp that contraceptives are not binary. Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, Paddy.

Blogger Harold Carper December 04, 2013 11:51 AM  

Look at the rate of change in the United States table at Wikipedia. That should really bother anyone who hasn't completely swallowed the cultural and racial equalitarian B.S.

Anonymous Starbuck December 04, 2013 11:52 AM  

Ignore this question if you consider it too personal, but how many kids do you have?

I have 4 kids. 1 girl and 3 boys. :)

Anonymous Richardthughes December 04, 2013 11:52 AM  

Are there any books you like, Tiny Tim? Do any of them have any thoughts on judging others?*

*Spoiler alert: Yes, I judge others.

Anonymous rho December 04, 2013 11:52 AM  

This is a tough one. How do you convince people to have more kids?

Married couples will have kids naturally. The problem is the kind of people we want to have kids are also the ones who will be the first to limit their offspring to a manageable number. It is simply too expensive to have kids if you're the type of person who can see past the end of their own nose.

(I wasn't a fan of Mitt Romney, but one thing I did like about him was his big family.)

Anonymous VD December 04, 2013 11:53 AM  

kind of, sort of, absolutely and completely undercut the entire premise of the post?

No, Paddy, and if you'd ever used a contraceptive, you'd understand that. There are families with 4, 6, and even more children who use contraceptives. You see, they aren't binary.

If you contracept on Friday night, that doesn't mean that you are bound to do so on Saturday night. Perhaps if your brain wasn't so pickled, Paddy, you'd have understood that.

Anonymous concernedmama December 04, 2013 11:54 AM  

“People were created to be loved, things were created to be used; the reason why the world is in chaos right now is because things are being loved, and people are being used.”

- I'm waiting for our sixth to be born in March.

Anonymous Stg58/Animal Mother December 04, 2013 11:55 AM  

We are looking at Destructo Machine #3 next year.

Anonymous stats79 December 04, 2013 11:58 AM  

"Only an Irish Catholic could fail to grasp that contraceptives are not binary."

Not "binary"? Nice two-step there, Vox. Of course it was considered a mortal sin up until 70 years ago by almost every Christian denomination on the planet. But now, well hell, it's not binary. Sweet. World is my oyster now that I've learned that morality ain't 'binary".

Anonymous stats79 December 04, 2013 12:01 PM  

Married couples will have kids naturally. The problem is the kind of people we want to have kids are also the ones who will be the first to limit their offspring to a manageable number. It is simply too expensive to have kids if you're the type of person who can see past the end of their own nose.

The last 50 years argues against your assertion.

Anonymous Josh December 04, 2013 12:02 PM  

Why in the hell are some of you catholics so obsessed with Where The Sperm Goes?

Because Onan? Because gay priests?

Anonymous Curlytop December 04, 2013 12:03 PM  

VD "If you contracept on Friday night, that doesn't mean that you are bound to do so on Saturday night. "

Clearly, Paddy isn't familiar with his own Church's Family Planning Method....NFP: Natural Family Planning. Also known as the Creighton Model that the Catholic Church promotes and has done so for over 30 yrs. Sad that a Protestant has to point this out to him.

Blogger Tiny Tim December 04, 2013 12:03 PM  

Richardhughes, I am human. I am flawed. Some people unwittingly assist in the destruction of their culture. They are manipulated and used, and once they wake up it is too late, as is the case with a lot of party girls who by the time they want children are dried up and incapable.

I have discernment. My judgment of anyone is meaningless. I hand down no verdicts. I issue no punishment.

Many people choose to live their lives selfishly. Nothing comes for free. So often the price is loneliness, drug and alcohol addiction, and seeing Obamacare as their savior.

We were created in the image of our Creator. We are creators, not destroyers of all that is good.

Anonymous stats79 December 04, 2013 12:04 PM  

If you contracept on Friday night, that doesn't mean that you are bound to do so on Saturday night. Perhaps if your brain wasn't so pickled, Paddy, you'd have understood that.

Protestants, give 'em and inch and they'll take a mile. And the entire race with them.

Blogger Positive Dennis December 04, 2013 12:05 PM  

I think you should limit your children to what you can handle. Christians are having more children than nonchristians. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Alas there is also another category that has more children, the various classes of dependent poor.

Blogger Aquinas Dad December 04, 2013 12:05 PM  

VD,
Contraceptives may not be binary, but the attitude of contraception usually is

Blogger Tiny Tim December 04, 2013 12:05 PM  

"The devil is never a maker, the less that you give you're a taker... it goes on and on and on, it's Heaven and hell..."

Blogger Nate December 04, 2013 12:05 PM  

"C'mon, I at least deserve an explanation. My children are depending on it. All 3 plus more of them."

We've used all kinds of contraception through out my marriage... from the pill... to other much more entertaining methods.

I have 5 kids Patty.

Anonymous Stingray December 04, 2013 12:05 PM  

We go to a Latin Mass parish where [5 is] below average in the number of kids.

Us as well, while I would say five is about the average. They are relatively young families as well, which is encouraging. I can't confirm it, but I've heard that the number of parishioners attending the Traditional Mass is growing rapidly, and they are having lots of children. This gives me some hope.

Anonymous Josh December 04, 2013 12:06 PM  

Yes, clearly the protestants are to blame for catholics not having kids.

Blogger buzzardist December 04, 2013 12:07 PM  

I wonder if a similar realization has anything to do with China's recent relaxation of its one-child policy. They didn't relax the policy much, and the motivation may well have been more to do with the shortage of children and grandchildren to care for the elderly. Still, somewhere someone in the Chinese government has to be screaming that the only way China will cement itself as a long-term power is by letting its people reproduce. What's true for a religion is, in this case, true for a nation (or race). You can't own the future if you don't put enough children into that future.

Of course, with religion, Catholics could go out and make a genuine effort at evangelizing. That worked at one time in church history. But my guess is that Catholics in Europe and America are more likely to pop out two or three extra kids before they'd be bothered to spread the faith, which is to say that Catholicism outside the third world is probably doomed.

Anonymous rho December 04, 2013 12:08 PM  

stats79:
Of course it was considered a mortal sin up until 70 years ago by almost every Christian denomination on the planet

"Mortal sins" are largely a Catholic conceit, right? Anyway you've got like eighty logical errors in your snarky paragraph.

Blogger Nate December 04, 2013 12:08 PM  

"Protestants, give 'em and inch and they'll take a mile. And the entire race with them."

And yet the article is about Catholics that aren't reproducing.

No doubt that is the protestant's fault as well.

Anonymous stats79 December 04, 2013 12:08 PM  

Why in the hell are some of you catholics so obsessed with Where The Sperm Goes?

Oh, I don't know. Two-thousand years of Christian morality, and natural law speculation may have something to do with it.

Anonymous Boetain December 04, 2013 12:09 PM  

Hopes of privacy not withstanding, Wikipedia says that Vox has 3 kids...

Blogger Aquinas Dad December 04, 2013 12:09 PM  

"It is simply too expensive to have kids if you're the type of person who can see past the end of their own nose."
translation
"anyone who disagrees with me is wrong, stupid, foolish, or all three"
why don't you tell us more about how we aren't to disagree with your unsupported assertions?

Anonymous Pat Hannagan December 04, 2013 12:09 PM  

Only an Irish Catholic could fail to grasp that contraceptives are not binary. Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, Paddy.

Thanks for replying, VD.

Funny thing is, I have learned through life's short experience, that when one seeks to make an emotional point one backs it up with an absolute decree. You state the truth and plant the seed, you don't then cut it at the root.

I tell you this, Prodo,: my diaspora will live on long after your feeble rationalisations remain but forgotten posts in the waybackmachine. The Savoyard Priest had more faith than your equivocations.

You have more emotion in denouncing me a Paddy than you do for demanding what you post about.

Blogger Aquinas Dad December 04, 2013 12:10 PM  

Josh,
because natural law

Anonymous VryeDenker December 04, 2013 12:10 PM  

This is a tough one. How do you convince people to have more kids?

Like such: In 20 or 30 years, the government will probably NOT be in a position to care for you and your 401k(or any other type of nest egg) will probably be worthless. We may even have been invaded by the Chinese/Mexicans/Africans who will NOT give two shits about your welfare in your old age. But if you have three or more kids and you raised them well, they will be able to care of you when you no longer can. They'll also be around to look after your wife/husband when you're gone.

It just hits all the right buttons. Feel free to modify according to the audience, but the idea is that children are a better safeguard against having to eat catfood than squirreling away money and hoping no one steals it.

Anonymous stats79 December 04, 2013 12:10 PM  

Anyway you've got like eighty logical errors in your snarky paragraph.

Name one.

Anonymous Richardthughes December 04, 2013 12:10 PM  

Income and Fertility:

http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&ctype=b&strail=false&nselm=s&met_x=sp_dyn_le00_in&scale_x=lin&ind_x=false&met_y=sp_dyn_tfrt_in&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&met_s=sp_pop_totl&scale_s=lin&ind_s=false&dimp_c=country:region&ifdim=country&iconSize=0.5&uniSize=0.035#!ctype=b&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=s&met_s=sp_pop_totl&scale_s=lin&ind_s=false&dimp_c=country:region&met_y=poverty_gap&fdim_y=poverty_line:1&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&met_x=sp_dyn_tfrt_in&scale_x=lin&ind_x=false&ifdim=country&pit=1291442400000&hl=en_US&dl=en_US&ind=false


(use the slider to see the change through time)

http://www.econ.yale.edu/~pschultz/cdp925.pdf

Anonymous civilServant December 04, 2013 12:10 PM  

Very likely libertarians have the fewest children of any demographic group.

Blogger Aquinas Dad December 04, 2013 12:11 PM  

concerned mama,
Congrats!

Blogger Harold Carper December 04, 2013 12:11 PM  

If you create life and believe there is any chance that it will spend eternity in torment, you're a monster.

Meaningless. If true, then all parents throughout human history are monsters, and God still says children are a blessing.

Anonymous Anonymous December 04, 2013 12:12 PM  

The cost of children is frightening. I have two teenage daughters and am going broke.. I cant imagine the suggested number of 3 minimum. There are many days I wish I didnt have any. They are such a headache. Perhaps when the grandkids arrive.

Anonymous Luke December 04, 2013 12:12 PM  

Samson J. December 04, 2013 11:18 AM

"Would having three include adoption?

I think so. If we don't have one more naturally, we are almost certain to adopt one."


Sorry, but no, you're probably not going to adopt, unless you like neurotic 8 year olds with issues with lying, stealing, and permanent low interest in academics. The combination of widespread abortion and unmarried mothers keeping their bastards (that pre-1975 would largely have been put up for adoption) have resulted in hardly any healthy white infants being available for adoption to strangers any more in this country. An older black crack/Fetal Alcohol Syndrome kid? All you could want (which should be zero if you're sane).

Blogger Aquinas Dad December 04, 2013 12:13 PM  

Positive Dennis,
I recommend the excellent book 'Shall the Religious Inherit the Earth?' by Eric kauffman

Anonymous Anonymous December 04, 2013 12:14 PM  

contraceptives are not binary.

That's true, but... It does seem like it works out that way for an awful lot of couples. Most couples using contraception -- including something like 90% of Catholic couples -- aren't having 4-5 kids and just using it to spread them out or keep from having 12. Most are having the elite-approved 1 or 2, which means they're contracepting far more often than not.

Some individuals may differ, but on the society-wide scale, it doesn't appear that you can legalize contraception and have it be used rarely for special cases, any more than you can legalize abortion and have it be used rarely for true cases of threat to the life of the mother. It's too slippery a slope, and society ends up at the bottom in a hurry. So if you want big families, then yes, you have to oppose contraception, even if you personally might not over-use it. That's the only way to get there.

Anonymous Richardthughes December 04, 2013 12:14 PM  

Harold,
I enjoyed how you declared the sentiment meaningless, then interpreted it's meaning.

Blogger Aquinas Dad December 04, 2013 12:14 PM  

Stingray,
Ours is an FSSP parish.
Yes - more and more people attend the TLM and they tend to have large families.

Anonymous Vicarius Christi December 04, 2013 12:15 PM  

"Protestants, give 'em and inch and they'll take a mile. And the entire race with them."

The Cathedral is just mainline Protestantism, dressed up as 20th century leftism.

Luther --> Puritans --> baptists --> the mega-church --> Billy Graham --> John Piper --> Open Theists --> ALL non-Catholic "christian" heretics --> the root of all NGOs, NWOs, government-media complex... the same dudes that push birth control and abortion.

Thus it's true. Protestants have ruined the world. Thanks guys!

Anonymous stats79 December 04, 2013 12:15 PM  

"Mortal sins" are largely a Catholic conceit, right?

Well, maybe snake handlers have jettisoned the concept, but it was retained by most mainline protestants in one form or another.

Anonymous Croppies Lie Down December 04, 2013 12:15 PM  

The most advanced machine Paddy knows how to operate is a bottle opener, you can't expect him to know how to use advanced things like contraceptives and soap.

Blogger Harold Carper December 04, 2013 12:16 PM  

I think you should limit your children to what you can handle.

Most people will never know how many children they can handle until they have too many. Which means most people will never know.

Blogger buzzardist December 04, 2013 12:17 PM  

Alas there is also another category that has more children, the various classes of dependent poor.

So the solution is for the Catholic Church to open its coffers and start offering generous subsidies for families who do little else than have kids? Brilliant.

Historically, if we look at records from 400 and 500 years ago, it was actually the wealthy who had more children, and their children were much more likely to survive into adulthood. The poor class in England, for example, was actually producing surviving children at below the replacement rate. At least some people have speculated that this condition is part of what set the stage for the rise of the middle class and the Industrial Revolution. It wasn't upward mobility that created the middle class, but downward mobility. The wealthiest people had, by far, the most children, but only the oldest son would inherit the estate. The rest might receive, at best, small monetary inheritances, and despite being educated as gentlemen and ladies, they would end up in households that had to work for livings. A bunch of people striving to regain the opulence and status that they'd once known while they worked as doctors, lawyers, bankers, clergy, and in other professional occupations? Voila...the middle class.

So it's no surprise that our middle class is declining today. The wealthy are having a depressingly low number of children, while the poor are having considerably more. It's no surprise that beggarly mentalities are taking over the culture.

Blogger Tiny Tim December 04, 2013 12:18 PM  

Anonymous, your children are a blessing. They sense your selfishness and have no respect for you. Resentment is the source of your problems.

Blogger Aquinas Dad December 04, 2013 12:18 PM  

"The cost of children is frightening. I have two teenage daughters and am going broke.. I cant imagine the suggested number of 3 minimum. There are many days I wish I didnt have any. They are such a headache. Perhaps when the grandkids arrive."
I am feeding 5 sons - I am not impressed.
What are you spending your money on? clothes?

Blogger Harold Carper December 04, 2013 12:19 PM  

Richard, "meaningless" was a too ambiguous choice of words. Perhaps I should have typed "inconsequential".

Anonymous Anonymous December 04, 2013 12:19 PM  

Have three and never regretted it. There is a simple fix for this. Make, as a requirement for membership in church - attendance at two annual church retreats. Make the retreats free, provide childcare, and have them at a nice, romantic location. Allow the men to hunt/fish all day, and allow the women to be pampered with spa treatments or whatever it is that women like to do when the gather. Have a Bible study on Jacob and his 12 sons - and how a nation was built upon these men and their large families.

Then - get everybody hammered on gin n juice, and send them off to their rooms and quietly pipe in Barry White songs. Problem solved.

Blogger Harold Carper December 04, 2013 12:19 PM  

But even that can be misinterpreted if you want to be obtuse.

Anonymous rho December 04, 2013 12:20 PM  

The last 50 years argues against your assertion.

I don't see how. As has been pointed out, couples usually want one more child. They don't because it's too expensive, or because they're too old because they waited to have kids.

Unless you're suggesting that people are too selfish to have children? If so, you do have a point. However, even the most self-absorbed SWPL couples usually churn out a kid.

Anonymous civilServant December 04, 2013 12:20 PM  

How do you convince people to have more kids?

You cannot. If a man is focused on himself then he has no room for or conception of anything else.

Depending on the reasons of course. To have children because they are human beings in and of themselves? To him that is stupid. To have children to advance your social and political goals and to serve you in your old age? To him this might make sense.

I knew a woman who desperately wanted children. Her husband turned out to be sterile. She divorced him and married another and had her first child. She hated it and hated being a mother and stopped at one.

Anonymous Josh December 04, 2013 12:21 PM  

The Cathedral is just mainline Protestantism, dressed up as 20th century leftism.

You know how stupid it is to use a distinctively Catholic word to describe something you think is the result of mainline protestantism?

Blogger Aquinas Dad December 04, 2013 12:21 PM  

buzzardist,
"So the solution is for the Catholic Church to open its coffers and start offering generous subsidies for families who do little else than have kids? Brilliant."
Where did this come from? Or is this as incorrect as your meanderings about Catholic evangelization, above?

Blogger Tiny Tim December 04, 2013 12:22 PM  

"Father, forgive them all for they know not what they do"

Blogger buzzardist December 04, 2013 12:23 PM  

The cost of children is frightening. I have two teenage daughters and am going broke.. I cant imagine the suggested number of 3 minimum. There are many days I wish I didnt have any. They are such a headache. Perhaps when the grandkids arrive.

You're doing it wrong.

Anonymous Samuel Scott December 04, 2013 12:25 PM  

FUBAR Nation Ben December 04, 2013 10:33 AM

Vox, what jews are you referring to? Most secular jews have 1-2 kids if any.

Josh December 04, 2013 10:43 AM

The orthodox and ultra orthodox who pop out massive amounts of kids. Unfortunately, they're all welfare queens because the only acceptable work for orthodox males is studying the Torah.

IIRC, the average children per ultra orthodox households in Israel is 5 or 6.


You need to draw a distinction between American and Israeli Jews.

America: Secular and non-Orthodox Jews' fertility rate is the same as secular Americans in general. Orthodox and non-Orthodox Jews have more kids. Most Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox (except for a few extremists) also work day jobs in addition to studying the Torah.

Israel: Secular Israelis have about three kids. The Orthodox have about three to five and work day jobs. The ultra-Orthodox have, according to most numbers I've seen, about six to eight children and are much more likely not to work. The whole "have a lot of kids and the men do not work" is primarily a (modern!) occurrence specific to the ultra-Orthodox in Israel and not elsewhere.

Anonymous Josh December 04, 2013 12:27 PM  

The whole "have a lot of kids and the men do not work" is primarily a (modern!) occurrence specific to the ultra-Orthodox in Israel and not elsewhere.

There are a couple of towns in New York that are suffering from the same phenomenon.

Anonymous rho December 04, 2013 12:28 PM  

stats79:
Name one.

Sure. You have a category error in ascribing the concept of "mortal sins" to non-Catholic denominations. You crawfished back from that in a subsequent post, but it still stands.

Also, asserting that practicing contraception is immoral is begging the question.

Anonymous dh December 04, 2013 12:28 PM  

dh so you wouldn't recommend adoption except as a last resort?

I've seen a lot people go into it with messed up expectations. The real nasty truth is that most kids who are candidates for adoption have extremely serious emotional or mental problems.

Anonymous jamsco December 04, 2013 12:29 PM  

" An older black crack/Fetal Alcohol Syndrome kid? All you could want (which should be zero if you're sane)."

Way harsh.

What about people who want to do hard things? What about potential parents who are adopting as a ministry?

And are you saying that a perfect white baby deserves a family more than a handicapped non-white?

Anonymous Samuel Scott December 04, 2013 12:32 PM  

Josh December 04, 2013 12:27 PM

There are a couple of towns in New York that are suffering from the same phenomenon.


Oh, sure -- but it's a small number and an exception to the general practice. I know (only indirectly) the areas to which you're referring, and I would call them cultists.

Within the overall (ultra-)Orthodox community, it's much more common in Israel for men not to work than in the United States. And I would say Israel also has a lot more cultists.

Blogger Aquinas Dad December 04, 2013 12:35 PM  

Josh,
"You know how stupid it is to use a distinctively Catholic word to describe something you think is the result of mainline protestantism?"
I suggest you acquaint yourself with not just the seminal work 'The Cathedral and the Bazaar' but the concept of The Cathedral as an umbrella term from mainline "churchianity" thinking; as such the term is relatively popular in neo-reactionary circles.
Also, 'Cathedral' is far from unique to Catholics regardless of its origins.

Blogger Aquinas Dad December 04, 2013 12:36 PM  

rho,
"asserting that practicing contraception is immoral is begging the question."
And what qould that question be, then?

Anonymous stats79 December 04, 2013 12:38 PM  

You have a category error in ascribing the concept of "mortal sins" to non-Catholic denominations.

I said contraception was considered a mortal sin, "by almost every Christian denomination on the planet." This was meant to exclude snake handlers and what ever heretical sect you might be a member of.

So, once again, name one of the 80 logical errors in my post.

Blogger James Dixon December 04, 2013 12:38 PM  

> If we think its a breeding competition, we're all losers.

Well, you certainly are.

> I'm not going to weep that Catholic parishes are shrinking because Catholics no longer want large litters of children.

Hopefully the Catholics feel the same way about you.

> If you create life and believe there is any chance that it will spend eternity in torment, you're a monster.

And if we believe it's entirely their choice whee they spend eternity? Are you anti-choice?

> Very likely libertarians have the fewest children of any demographic group.

A little research on your part and you might not have to hypothesize.

Anonymous Josh December 04, 2013 12:40 PM  

I suggest you acquaint yourself with not just the seminal work 'The Cathedral and the Bazaar' but the concept of The Cathedral as an umbrella term from mainline "churchianity" thinking; as such the term is relatively popular in neo-reactionary circles.
Also, 'Cathedral' is far from unique to Catholics regardless of its origins.


I'm aware of the term. It's a fantastically stupid one.

Anonymous Josh December 04, 2013 12:42 PM  

I said contraception was considered a mortal sin, "by almost every Christian denomination on the planet." This was meant to exclude snake handlers and what ever heretical sect you might be a member of.

What denominations believe in the doctrine of mortal sin?

And why it is heretical to not believe in that doctrine?

Anonymous RedJack December 04, 2013 12:44 PM  

Aquinas Dad,

NFP is contraception if used to not have kids. We have been using it FOR kids, and it finally worked, but most of the people who practice NFP do so in a contraceptive way.

Blogger Aquinas Dad December 04, 2013 12:46 PM  

Josh,
"I'm aware of the term"
Hmmm.
Well, if I accept that as a true statement that means that when you wrote.
"You know how stupid it is to use a distinctively Catholic word to describe something..?"
You were being disingenuous; attacking someone as 'stupid' for using a term that you were familiar with and, therefore, knew was actually appropriate in context (even if you disagree with its use).
That would make you somewhat dishonest and a jerk, too.
Is that the case?

Blogger Aquinas Dad December 04, 2013 12:49 PM  

RedJack,
That is why I try to speak of a 'contraceptive mentality'. The Wife and I also use NFP to have more kids, as do most of our friends.
I sometimes wonder about NFP and contraceptive mentality. I know it is often asserted it is mainly used to avoid children, but I so often see the opposite in person....

Blogger buzzardist December 04, 2013 12:49 PM  

"So the solution is for the Catholic Church to open its coffers and start offering generous subsidies for families who do little else than have kids? Brilliant."
Where did this come from? Or is this as incorrect as your meanderings about Catholic evangelization, above?


I was reacting to the observation that the subsidized poor are still having a lot of children. As for my previous comments, the demographic numbers don't lie. During the past couple of decades, Catholicism has lost ground in the United States in terms of the percentage of the adult population. Even with rampant illegal immigration from predominantly Catholic countries, Catholics as a percentage of adults in America decreased by more that 1% since 1990. Those adults who identify as Catholic tend to be aging. If we looked at Europe, the situation is even worse. The Catholic Church is not replacing its numbers fast enough, and it takes some combination of children who remain in the church or conversions to turn this around. Catholics outside of the third world aren't doing either fast enough.

Of course, mainline Protestants in America are even worse in this regard. Their implosion is happening a lot faster, mostly because Catholics are still having a few more kids, because the Catholic Church is more likely to hold onto its children, and because immigration is bolstering Catholic numbers.

In the U.S., the only Christian demographic that's actually growing in terms of the percentage of the overall population is non-denominational/evangelical Christians. People in these churches do tend to have slightly larger families, but a good portion of the growth comes from attracting new members, which other brands of Christianity aren't doing. Granted, some of this growth is cannibalizing from other denominations, but the problem remains for all those other denominations that they are failing to attract and retain members.

Shoot, in the U.S., even the Mormons with their aggressive proselytizing and large families managed zero growth in terms of percentage of adult population over the past couple decades. Yes, they have more members, but their growth only managed to keep pace with population growth.

You can get your nose twisted up, but the demographics are what they are. Catholicism and mainline Protestantism aren't having enough children or winning enough converts to sustain themselves over the long-term in the U.S. and much of Europe.

Anonymous Josh December 04, 2013 12:51 PM  

You were being disingenuous; attacking someone as 'stupid' for using a term that you were familiar with and, therefore, knew was actually appropriate in context (even if you disagree with its use).
That would make you somewhat dishonest and a jerk, too.
Is that the case?


The appropriation of the word is stupid especially in the context of creating a chain of causation from Martin Luther to the UN. Especially when a Catholic is doing so.

It would be like a football fan using The Football to describe a conspiracy by people to end football.

Blogger Aquinas Dad December 04, 2013 12:57 PM  

Josh,
"And why it is heretical to not believe in that doctrine?"
Actually, all Protestant sects are, technically, heretical inherently.
Mortal Sin was originally part of Lutheran theology, although some modern groups now do not accept it. Jehovah's Witnesses also recognize the concept, although they consciously changed the name for the idea. Anglicans/Episcopalians, Methodists, and many of the sects that 'descend' from Lutheranism, Anglicanism, and similar denominations may or may not include the idea of 'mortal sin', either explicitly, implicitly or by other terms

Anonymous Stg58/Animal Mother December 04, 2013 12:57 PM  

Vicarius Cristi,

Your progression chart is wrong. Baptists are not Protestants. Baptists have been around longer than you have.

Anonymous Jimmy December 04, 2013 12:58 PM  

"Society is very anti-child."

If you ignore the media, society is very pro-child. I advise people to have more children. Don't read the naysayers and the New York Times.

Blogger Aquinas Dad December 04, 2013 12:58 PM  

buzzardist,
You still missed the point of my question.
Why mention anything about 'Catholic coffers'?

Blogger Aquinas Dad December 04, 2013 12:59 PM  

Josh,
In other words, you were being dishonest and kind of a jerk.

Blogger Janet December 04, 2013 1:02 PM  

http://chicksontheright.com/posts/item/25051-another-example-of-what-a-liberal-feminist-looks-like

Blogger Aquinas Dad December 04, 2013 1:06 PM  

Stg58/Animal Mother,
The Baptists emerged about 1610 as part of the Separatist Movement that led to multiple sects branching off from Anglicanism. Their particular doctrines wre not 'firmed up' for another 25 years or so. To claim any older origin is to contradict the history of the Baptists as compiled not just be secular scholars *but by the Baptists themselves*.
Indeed, it is hard to see how the Baptists could be older than the Catholic Church when 'scripture alone' is a Baptist doctrine and the Catholic Church did not gather and define scripture until the 4th Century

Blogger Aquinas Dad December 04, 2013 1:11 PM  

Janet,
I still can't believe that....

Blogger Kentucky Packrat December 04, 2013 1:15 PM  

The number one flaw with adoption post-1960 is the lack of bridge burning. When my mother and her sister were adopted, I think their grandfather arranged for records to be completely destroyed, not just sealed. My aunt never did know anything about her genetic donors. My mother was found by someone who searches adoption records for a hobby (!), and neither her nor her birth mother were that interested. Never did find out about birth daddy; IMHO, birth mother decided to go ahead and die (she was near death already) rather than talk about him.

The girl down the street needs to give her kid up for adoption, and it needs to never be associated with her or the baby daddy ever again. The only way I'd consider adopting it is if they both visited Smackum (think Copperhead Road, but a real place in eastern Kentucky).

I can't imagine adopting one or two, and then trying to keep up with the extended family(s). That would be a grade A disaster.

Anonymous Loki Sjalfsainn December 04, 2013 1:17 PM  

Yet another discussion, this one of birth control and family size, devolves at the prompting of Catholics into why Protestants are wicked and the cause of all suffering. I must wonder why some cannot stay to the topic at hand...

Anonymous Stg58/Animal Mother December 04, 2013 1:18 PM  

http://www.pb.org/pbdocs/chhist5.html

Here is an electronic version of a book published by a Baptist elder in Dallas. It deals with Welsh Baptists.

You can also check out Hassell's church history.

Anonymous Stg58/Animal Mother December 04, 2013 1:21 PM  

A better question would be "How many trolls do you have?".

Anonymous Josh December 04, 2013 1:24 PM  

I must wonder why some cannot stay to the topic at hand...

It's clearly the prots' fault. Because heresy.

Anonymous Carlotta December 04, 2013 1:29 PM  


They don't have multiple child discount? At our parish school the first is roughly $6k, second around $5k, third around $3500 and four or more are free (at least around 4 they are free).


I have found, after myself being educated at a very prestigious Catholic school, that the education provided there can be easily surpassed by devoted parents, the library and field trips for a quarter of one year tuition for one child.

And my children are in ZERO physical danger.

Anonymous SirHamster December 04, 2013 1:31 PM  

Check out my adoption blog at http://bradonadoption.blogspot.com if you want some mumblings on our experience.


Link reports "Blog has been removed". Care to fix it?

Anonymous Carlotta December 04, 2013 1:31 PM  

Vox- how many children do you have?

This question is irrelevant.
His point is made on facts alone.

For the record, I think that a large assed women can quite clearly make a factual case to keep your ass high and tight.

Anonymous Carlotta December 04, 2013 1:33 PM  

Yet another discussion, this one of birth control and family size, devolves at the prompting of Catholics into why Protestants are wicked and the cause of all suffering. I must wonder why some cannot stay to the topic at hand...


Didn't you read the post. They need money...I mean members!

Anonymous Josh December 04, 2013 1:36 PM  

For the record, I think that a large assed women can quite clearly make a factual case to keep your ass high and tight.

Squats and deadlifts, baby.

Anonymous Loki Sjalfsainn December 04, 2013 1:36 PM  

They need money...I mean members!

I must then assume that, like other Christian groups, they are primarily women.

Blogger Nate December 04, 2013 1:37 PM  

"Yet another discussion, this one of birth control and family size, devolves at the prompting of Catholics into why Protestants are wicked and the cause of all suffering."

Particularly amusing that the article referenced is actually about catholics not reproducing. Obviously protestants are to blame for catholic behavior.

Because Sperm.

Anonymous ZhukovG December 04, 2013 1:45 PM  

I'm with Loki on this. The 30 Years War ended a long time ago, it's time to let go.

Anonymous ZhukovG December 04, 2013 1:47 PM  

Also to my fellow Catholics, Speck meet Beam.

Anonymous SirHamster December 04, 2013 1:47 PM  

"Particularly amusing that the article referenced is actually about catholics not reproducing. Obviously protestants are to blame for catholic behavior.

Because Sperm."


It's the Protestant Culture of Death.

Anonymous Brother Thomas December 04, 2013 1:53 PM  

At one time, until early last century I think, Protestant denominations were opposed to contraception.

Anonymous farmer Tom December 04, 2013 1:53 PM  

How do you get people to have more kids?

End excessive taxation.
Quit sending the only people capable of having children to college, and then cubicle hell, while they are in the child bearing years.
Quit selling the culture on the credit debit mentality that makes both husband and wife wage slaves.
Make abortion a criminal offence.

There's a quick start for ya.

BTW, once again I haven't had time to read the comments, so my apologies to anyone who already said these things.

Anonymous civilServant December 04, 2013 1:54 PM  

Very likely libertarians have the fewest children of any demographic group.

A little research on your part and you might not have to hypothesize.


It seems less hypothesis and more observation. The comments here and elsewhere seem research enough. Alisa Rosenbaum's novels involve almost zero children of any description - her description of the solitary mother in Galt's Gulch is deprecatory - and libertarian literature closely follows her lead. And I have met few who described themselves as libertarian and had any significant number of children. Libertarians are consistent and having children is hard on libertarian attitudes.

So. Your own cite please. And please distinguish between libertarian and conservative. They are distinct.

Blogger Nate December 04, 2013 1:56 PM  

"It's the Protestant Culture of Death."

The Prostestant Culture of Death is making Catholics tear down their schools because Catholics aren't reproducing.

Gotcha.

Blogger buzzardist December 04, 2013 1:56 PM  

Why mention anything about 'Catholic coffers'?

Because to subsidize people having more children requires spending money?

Of course, "coffers" does not necessarily mean that those coffers are all that deep. In the case of the U.S. government, "opening the coffers" merely means more deficit spending. The Catholic Church is rich in property, but it may not have all that much cash to throw at encouraging births. And it's not like the track record of encouraging births through subsidies among people who don't want many kids in the first place is all that good. The government certainly subsidizes a lot of people who have kids, which may encourage them to have more, but similar subsidies targeted at people who don't want many kids would almost certainly fail as they have in Japan and elsewhere.

My question is why you're chaffing at an offhand quip about an almost-certain-to-fail strategy that the Catholic Church probably wouldn't adopt made in response to a quip about government policy? Does the idea of the Catholic Church spending (or having) money offend you? You seem rankled, but I'm confused why.

Anonymous automatthew December 04, 2013 1:57 PM  

"Alisa Rosenbaum's novels involve almost zero children of any description "

That was my biggest takeaway from Atlas Shrugged. It's sterile.

Anonymous civilServant December 04, 2013 1:57 PM  

How do you get people to have more kids?

Make abortion a criminal offence.


(Obviously this would include contraception.)

In the past children simply were an uncontrolled result of the sex drive. In present times people have a choice. "Who is Jane Galt?"

You would prohibit choice?

Blogger Nate December 04, 2013 1:57 PM  

" Libertarians are consistent and having children is hard on libertarian attitudes."

Vox = Libertarian with a bunch of kids.

Vidad = Libertarian with a bunch of kids

Nate = Libertarian with a bunch kids

Blogger buzzardist December 04, 2013 2:00 PM  

It's the Protestant Culture of Death.

Right, because all those evangelical Protestants with their large families and their pro-life organizations are actually set on killing people and the culture.

Yeah, you're going to have to try harder if you want to make your claim stick.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 December 04, 2013 2:00 PM  

You would prohibit choice?

You would allow children to be murdered?

Get out of civil service murderer.

Anonymous civilServant December 04, 2013 2:05 PM  

Alisa Rosenbaum's novels involve almost zero children of any description

That was my biggest takeaway from Atlas Shrugged. It's sterile.


Mine as well. Sterility makes perfect sense for the selfish man in a wealthy society. Of course he may encourage others to have children to man his factories and plow his fields ....

Blogger James Dixon December 04, 2013 2:08 PM  

> It seems less hypothesis and more observation.

Then why phrase it as a hypothetical?

> So. Your own cite please.

My cite for what? I didn't make any claim on the subject. Merely a hypothetical of my own in response.

Anonymous civilServant December 04, 2013 2:09 PM  

You would prohibit choice?

You would allow children to be murdered?


Myself? No. But I note the inconsistency in others. Consider Bedroom D Car No. 10.

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