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Thursday, January 23, 2014

Science is more dangerous than religion

In TIA, I pointed out that if the New Atheists were consistent, they would be arguing for the elimination of science on the same basis that they argue for the end of religion. After all, it is science that presently poses the only serious dangers to Mankind and while it is science that is presently causing a tremendous number of casualties around the world.

Remember, the worst religious crime of the entire Middle Ages was the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre in which King Charles IX of France ordered an estimated 10,000 Huegenots killed. Now Karl Denninger draws our attention to an article in Forbes concerning the estimated consequences of a single case of apparent "research misconduct":
Last summer British researchers provoked concern when they published a paper raising the possibility that by following an established guideline UK doctors may have caused as many as 10,000 deaths each year. Now they have gone a step further and published an estimate that the same guideline may have led to the deaths of as many as 800,00 people in Europe over the last five years. The finding, they write, “is so large that the only context in the last 50 years comes from the largest scale professional failures in the political sphere.” The 800,000 deaths are comparable in size to the worst cases of genocide and mass murder in recent history. In their new article published in the European Heart Journal, Graham Cole and Darrel Francis continue to explore the extent and implications of the damage caused by the Don Poldermans research misconduct case.
This isn't to say there are not benefits to science, of course, but the problem is that virtually no one ever pays any attention to its risks, which is precisely why this sort of human tragedy is possible. Moreover, the reason it can happen is because science as it is actually practiced falls very far short of the ideal Science that exists only in the minds of its fetishists.

Perhaps it would be wise for doctors to return to the pre-scientific concept of: First, Do No Harm.

It's also worth noting that no priest or cleric has ever exploded a nuclear bomb in the name of Allah, Jesus Christ, or Damballah Wedo. There have been at least 2,084 nuclear explosions set off by scientists.

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129 Comments:

Anonymous a. atheist January 23, 2014 1:06 PM  

1. these people would have died anyway - from starvation to disease - without science
2. these were the weak and useless, the kind who use up valuable resources better used by society

Anonymous Jake January 23, 2014 1:15 PM  

1. Everyone is going to die anyways. It's no less murder to kill them.

2. Said every mass-murderer ever... And aren't those weak people part of your society anyways? Or do you deem yourself fit to determine who is and is not allowed to be a part of society?

This folks is why anyone with half a brain doesn't trust an atheist with political power. Doesn't mean you should trust a self-proclaimed Christian with political power, but certainly not someone who wants to believe that they are the ultimate authority in the known universe and can murder 1 or 100,000,000 without consequence.

Anonymous Anonymous January 23, 2014 1:27 PM  

...800,00 people in Europe over the last five years.

"Silent Spring": Bitch. Please...


--Hale

Anonymous Mob-Rules January 23, 2014 1:30 PM  

No Vox, you are wrong. The Doctors that killed those people were Christians. The Scientists that detonated those bombs are Christians. Every last one. So they never were scientists or doctors since they're Christians!

Blogger Gilbert Ratchet January 23, 2014 1:31 PM  

Two quibbles: it was Charles IX (the ninth) not Charles XI (eleventh), and 1572 wasn't really in the Middle Ages.

Blogger Glen Filthie January 23, 2014 1:35 PM  

Pbbbffft! When it comes to mass murder, science and religion goes hand in hand.

The biggest problem scientists and atheists have with Christians is that they tend to ask the questions the scientists really don't want to think about or answer.

Anonymous Fornax January 23, 2014 1:46 PM  

Tweets and pictures with #overlyhonestmethods shows the true laziness or haphazard way in which modern scientists conduct research:
https://twitter.com/search?q=%23overlyhonestmethods
http://imgur.com/a/yPH3k
That gallery was posted to be humorous, but I find my laughing turning uncomfortable when I realize the far-reaching effects this research has.

Anonymous Bah January 23, 2014 1:52 PM  

"There have been at least 2,084 nuclear explosions set off by scientists."

2,082 of those didn't kill anybody, so no harm done there.

=)

Anonymous Anonymous January 23, 2014 1:59 PM  

There have been at least 2,084 nuclear explosions set off by scientists.

And a lot of the early ones were set off despite the risk off a chain reaction that would burn off the Earth's atmosphere. "Sure, it might kill everyone, but we need to measure how big it is THIS time."

--Hale

Anonymous VD January 23, 2014 1:59 PM  

it was Charles IX (the ninth) not Charles XI (eleventh)

Corrected, thanks.

Blogger Random January 23, 2014 2:03 PM  

I'm sure some atheist will bring it up if the pilot of the Enola Gay was a believer, since that would mean a Christian dropped an atomic bomb on a civilian population, not an atheist.

Anonymous a. atheist January 23, 2014 2:06 PM  

^^^ says the guy typing on a computer -- invented by science.

Anonymous Stoner Cat January 23, 2014 2:09 PM  

^^^ says the guy typing on a computer -- invented by science.

What's your point?

Anonymous kh123 January 23, 2014 2:16 PM  

Kids, quick! Pull out your Gervais F-Fold smartphones that science has given you and begin texting.... now.

Blogger rycamor January 23, 2014 2:19 PM  

The computer wasn't "invented" by science. Science is an inventor of nothing. In fact, not even most scientists are capable of invention. Most of the world-changing inventions were produced by amateurs, dabblers and enthusiasts. Rarely by people with PhDs and published research papers.

The computer itself was incrementally invented by centuries of interchange between engineers, mathematicians, tinkerers, logicians, and out-and-out amateurs just toying around with ideas.

Anonymous WaterBoy January 23, 2014 2:25 PM  

a. atheist: "2. these were the weak and useless, the kind who use up valuable resources better used by society"

Folks, I want you to consider for a minute that this could be just a Poe in action. Not that no atheist ever has said such a thing, just that the timing is a little too convenient.

Anonymous Krul January 23, 2014 2:27 PM  

What's a Poe?

Anonymous Josh January 23, 2014 2:28 PM  

Poe's Law, Krul.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 January 23, 2014 2:30 PM  

^^^ says the guy typing on a computer -- invented by science.

What hypothesis, experiment, and theory was developed that created the keyboard?

Or do you not know the difference between science and engineering?

Anonymous VD January 23, 2014 2:31 PM  

^^^ says the guy typing on a computer -- invented by science.

Says the guy appealing to science -- invented by Christianity.

Anonymous dh January 23, 2014 2:32 PM  

Bah--

Tell it to all the test subjects who didnt know they were part of medical experiments. Not long after we did that we prosecuted Nazi's for experimentation on prisoners. Very little difference really.

Anonymous WaterBoy January 23, 2014 2:35 PM  

From Wiki:

"Poe's law, named after its author Nathan Poe, is an Internet adage reflecting the idea that without a clear indication of the author's intent, it is difficult or impossible to tell the difference between an expression of sincere extremism and a parody of extremism."

Yes, atheists have made extreme claims like that before. But to lead off with the most extreme, right out of the gate like that? Smells fishy to me.

Anonymous Peter Garstig January 23, 2014 2:36 PM  

^^^ says the guy typing on a computer -- invented by science.

Says the guy - created by God.

Anonymous Krul January 23, 2014 2:38 PM  

Thanks, Josh and WaterBoy.

Funny, I've seen a similar sentiment before from a slightly different source:

This is liberalism's real strength. It is no longer susceptible to reductio ad absurdium arguments. Before you can come up with a comical take on their worldview, some college professor has already written an article advancing the idea.
-Ann Coulter

Anonymous Peter Garstig January 23, 2014 2:41 PM  

Guys, the answer to a possible parody can possibly be a parody.

Anonymous Huckleberry - est. 1977 January 23, 2014 2:46 PM  

I'm sure some atheist will bring it up if the pilot of the Enola Gay was a believer, since that would mean a Christian dropped an atomic bomb on a civilian population, not an atheist

He was just following orders.
From a Baptist!

Anonymous Huckleberry - est. 1977 January 23, 2014 2:47 PM  

it is difficult or impossible to tell the difference between an expression of sincere extremism and a parody of extremism

Exclamation points help.

Blogger Matamoros January 23, 2014 2:51 PM  

I'm sure some atheist will bring it up if the pilot of the Enola Gay was a believer, since that would mean a Christian dropped an atomic bomb on a civilian population, not an atheist

Actually it was dropped on the two most Catholic cities in Japan; and was part of Theodore Newman Kaufman's extermination campaign in Europe and the Pacific.

Blogger mmaier2112 January 23, 2014 2:53 PM  

Peter Garstig January 23, 2014 2:36 PM
"Says the guy - created by God."


Dude... you rock.

Anonymous Will Best January 23, 2014 2:56 PM  

Don't worry, I am sure the state AGs will do what they always do. Sue the companies that seem guilty and settle with them for billions of dollars in exchange for barring private action against those companies. That way justice will be done.

Anonymous Josh January 23, 2014 2:58 PM  

Actually it was dropped on the two most Catholic cities in Japan; and was part of Theodore Newman Kaufman's extermination campaign in Europe and the Pacific.

Shut up mongoloid

Anonymous Barnabas January 23, 2014 3:03 PM  

Did anyone else notice that another journalist got Yglesia'd.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/blog/bs-md-fogg-recovers-20140121,0,3456257.story

Anonymous Barnabas January 23, 2014 3:05 PM  

They took his laptop and his Prius. Couldn't make that up.

Anonymous Bah January 23, 2014 3:18 PM  

Bah--

Tell it to all the test subjects who didnt know they were part of medical experiments


It was a joke, dumbass.

Anonymous JC January 23, 2014 3:21 PM  

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the folks on the Manhattan Project all agnostics and atheists?

For what it's worth.

Anonymous Porky January 23, 2014 3:35 PM  

"...says the guy typing on a computer -- invented by science."

Actually, the father of the computer was Charles Babbage, an engineer and theologian.

Blogger IM2L844 January 23, 2014 3:36 PM  

They took his laptop and his Prius. Couldn't make that up.

I wonder if there is anything analogous to Hultgreen-Curie syndrome for this.

Anonymous Will Best January 23, 2014 3:45 PM  

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the folks on the Manhattan Project all agnostics and atheists?

If you are including the guys that built the facilities, factories and ran production somewhere around 500,000 people contributed to the Manhattan project.

Just from a probability standpoint it would be unlikely they were all agnostic/atheist

Blogger IM2L844 January 23, 2014 4:34 PM  

Now they have gone a step further and published an estimate that the same guideline may have led to the deaths of as many as 800,00 people in Europe over the last five years.

It's interesting to note that the gatekeepers of scientism have already walked this back on behalf of the European Society of Cardiology because the European Heart Journal has never ever published articles that haven't undergone rigorous peer review...pinky swear!

Anonymous DrTorch January 23, 2014 5:24 PM  

There have been at least 2,084 nuclear explosions set off by scientists

Some of those involved were mathematicians.

And engineers helped.

Blogger crazyivan498 January 23, 2014 5:43 PM  

There are multiple problems in the medical field that I observe when at work. Doctor are not trained to think. It's all about taking the signs and symptoms and following the cookbook recipe of accepted medical opinion of what to do next. Their are specialists for everything and nobody looks at the whole body. Everyone gets a low fat diet. The smart doctors I see that do come through where I work, don't last. We have a new attending doctor that doesn't take any crap from the residents. If the residents are not performing well he lets them know bluntly. Problem is the residents evaluate the attendings too and are trashing the new attending. The new guy isn't getting along either old attendings either since he tends to change the patients plan of care when he comes on service instead of just going along with what the last attending plan. We'll see how long the new attending lasts. Its hard to do the right thing and deviate from the group

Anonymous kh123 January 23, 2014 5:45 PM  

...And gremlins.

Anonymous Logo January 23, 2014 5:46 PM  

Remember, the worst religious crime of the entire Middle Ages was the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre

I think you've made an error calling the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre. Generally in my experience the term Middle Ages is used by historians to refer to the fifth through the fifteenth century. The St. Bartholowmew's Massacre was in the sixteenth, which would make it an event of the Early Modern era.

King Charles IX of France ordered an estimated 10,000 Huegenots killed

Didn't Charles only order certain Huegenot leaders killed? I thought most of those who died in the massacre fell victim to the spontanteous mob violence perpetrated by the Catholics who took Charles' actions as a cue to purge the Protestants from their own midst.

Anonymous What Would Lodi Do? January 23, 2014 6:13 PM  

But... but... but... everything European is inherently better!!! How could this possibly happen???

Blogger TangoMan January 23, 2014 6:18 PM  

Says the guy - created by God.

Says the guy who invokes a god created by illiterate, mystical savages who wandered the desert carrying their storm god around in a box.

Hey, this is fun.

Anonymous boring aspie tard January 23, 2014 6:21 PM  

Easter Bunny invoked 5,4,3,2...

Blogger kurt9 January 23, 2014 6:26 PM  

One of the problems with medicine is that the vast majority of the people who work in it, including the MD's themselves, are liberal arts people. Much of medicine as it is practiced is not a legitimate technical discipline. It is not the science in medicine that is the problem here. It is the lack of science that is the problem.

Anonymous Anonymous January 23, 2014 6:29 PM  

To paraphrase Wamba the Fool of Ivanhoe 1952: " show me an atheist that is not a Christian, and I will show you 10 Christians that are not Christian"

Blogger Whiskey January 23, 2014 6:31 PM  

As someone who is filled with doubt but would like to believe, let me add my own two cents.

First, human beings NEED to believe. In something. So people do not operate without a religion, even or especially atheists. Rather they'll believe in junk religions, ones known to cause harm, like Marxism, or Global Warming, or Gaia, or neo-Paganism (which is not thankfully very pagan at all) or junk Hinduism (not the real kind which does not allow for converts) or Buddhism or Zen or a million other stuff: Kaballah and Scientology and the like.

All these religions proliferate because the old Christian religion is just too demanding: can't slut it up, can't stud it up, and so on. Can't be materialistic. Etc.

As far as science goes, it is not a religion and merely a tool. One that will be pushing farther and farther. Because humans want: better and safer food and water. Better and safer and cleaner clothing. Better and safer and more convenient shelter. Better and longer and happier lives. Better cures for diseases. More powerful tools.

And this has been the trap Humanity has always been in since the days of the Garden or more literally since mankind first started Agriculture (likely in the now submerged Persian Gulf where four rivers flowed into a low, wet, warm area around 10,000 years ago during the last Ice Age). Certainly since the Egyptians -- we need ever more food and clothing and power/work done by tools and animals and machines.

Expecting science to solve human nature absent DNA alteration is not in the cards. THAT just might be however, and I would personally tread lightly there.

At any rate, humans need religion. If nothing else, we evolved to need it because human society cannot have a policeman perfect and attending for every human being. The only question is what religion is best for human beings.

I would argue, and as a non-believer, it is Christianity. Raised as a Presbyterian, I would nominate Protestantism because it emphasizes reading the Bible, which can never hurt anyone and can always do some good.

Anonymous What Would Lodi Do? January 23, 2014 6:34 PM  

Doctor are not trained to think. It's all about taking the signs and symptoms and following the cookbook recipe of accepted medical opinion of what to do next.

Absolutely. I just returned home after being hospitalized for 2 years (yes, 2 years!) and the experience made my opinion of the average doctor plummet abysmally. None of those I dealt with would consider for a second deviating from the cookbook, especially if suggested by the "stupid patient". And admit they might be mistaken or not be totally omniscient? Unthinkable! Now that I'm out and free to manage my health as I see fit, I'm undoing their foolish decisions and feeling 100% better for it.

Anonymous Sigyn January 23, 2014 6:45 PM  

Says the guy who invokes a god created by illiterate, mystical savages who wandered the desert carrying their storm god around in a box.

Says the guy who traces his ancestry back to a bowl of chicken soup and admits his mom is a hairless monkey.

Hey, this is fun.

Innit though?

Blogger Outlaw X January 23, 2014 6:46 PM  

I agree with Vox that the results of science have been much more dangerous than religion, but it is a delicate balance with science leaving religion out. It is misused science and the elites agenda using science or pseudoscience that is not only dangerous, but also to the extinction of mankind and nature itself. For just two examples GMO and Nuclear energy which will soon become apparent.

Blogger TangoMan January 23, 2014 6:59 PM  

Says the guy who traces his ancestry back to a bowl of chicken soup and admits his mom is a hairless monkey.

A bowl of chicken soup is real. I can touch it, measure its size and temperature, smell the aroma, etc.

Yahweh was concocted in the minds of ignorant, superstitious savages who crapped their pants when thunder rolled down from the sky and so invented a god to whom they could appeal to stop his thundering ways. From this invention of Yahweh comes the Abrahamic religions.

Better to arise from a bowl of chicken soup than the hallucinations of heat stroke victims of an Bronze Age people who hardly understood much of the world about them and so appealed to gods that they created for their own comfort.

Meaning you have as much chance of arising from a fictional Biblical character as you do of arising from a character in the Sweet Valley High series of books. Fiction is fiction.

Anonymous JC January 23, 2014 7:00 PM  

If you are including the guys that built the facilities, factories and ran production somewhere around 500,000 people contributed to the Manhattan project.

Just from a probability standpoint it would be unlikely they were all agnostic/atheist


I meant the primary scientists involved in leading the project: Oppenheimer, Teller, etc.

Unless I'm missing something, they were all atheists and agnostics.

Blogger Calvin Dodge January 23, 2014 7:07 PM  

"Well, once again, my friend, we find that science is a two-headed beast. One head is nice, it gives us aspirin and other modern conveniences... But the other head of science is bad. Oh, beware the other head of science, Arthur. It bites!" - The Tick in 'The Tick vs. Dinosaur Neil"

Anonymous George of the Hole January 23, 2014 7:10 PM  

Yahweh was concocted in the minds of ignorant, superstitious savages who crapped their pants when thunder rolled down from the sky and so invented a god to whom they could appeal to stop his thundering ways. From this invention of Yahweh comes the Abrahamic religions.

Who taught you this, young man?

Blogger TangoMan January 23, 2014 7:28 PM  

Who taught you this, young man?

The stories and fables of the ancients.

The land trembled and quaked, the foundations of the mountains shook and trembled, for he was angry. Smoke ascended into his nostrils and fire devoured from out of his mouth, embers blazed forth from him. Then he divided the skies and descended with darkness beneath his feet. He rode on a cherub, he took flight, he soared on the wings of the wind. He made darkness his veil, his shelter around him was dark waters and dense clouds. His clouds went forth from the brilliance before him – and there was hail and embers of fire. Yahweh thundered in the skies, Elyon gave his voice – and there was hail and embers of fire. He shot his arrows and made them scatter, he issued lightnings and confounded them.Then the deepest trenches of Yām became visible,the foundations of the land were revealed; by your command, Yahweh, by the gust of wind from your nostrils

Anonymous Pseudo-Nate January 23, 2014 7:33 PM  

Careful with the edge, Tango, it may cut you.

Anonymous Sigyn January 23, 2014 7:37 PM  

The stories and fables of the ancients.

One set is reliable, the other is not. You're funny! Dance harder!

A bowl of chicken soup is real. I can touch it, measure its size and temperature, smell the aroma, etc.

You should also be able to create life in it, then, since that whole abiogenesis thing is real and all. Go for it. We're all prepared to go on waiting; we're used to it by now.

Anonymous zen0 January 23, 2014 7:41 PM  

and there was hail and embers of fire. Yahweh thundered in the skies, Elyon gave his voice – and there was hail and embers of fire.

A little knowledge and a spirit of wickedness are sure indications of a lack of scholarship.

Anonymous Porky January 23, 2014 7:42 PM  

The stories and fables of the ancients.

Hmm...as I suspected not a single word about savages inventing a god to stop the scary thunder. In fact, the writer seems quite to be enjoying the lightning in this particular passage.

Are you sure it wasn't a Kanye West song you were thinking of? Lol! Eminem, perhaps? LOL!

Blogger TangoMan January 23, 2014 7:45 PM  

We're all prepared to go on waiting; we're used to it by now.

This is indeed true. Yahweh of the fables was always there to help his tribe conquer the neighboring tribe and he did battle with their gods and was victorious and then as time went by he just disappeared and hasn't been heard from since and so all of his believers keep on waiting for him to, once again, ride down from the storm clouds and fire lightning bolts from his fingertips and they've woven his absence into their theology. Somehow his absence is declared as proof of his existence. Or something.

Anonymous FritzG January 23, 2014 7:49 PM  

I wonder if there is any data on how man lives have been saved as a result of scientific medical research?

Anonymous George of the Hole January 23, 2014 7:49 PM  

Somehow his absence is declared as proof of his existence.

And where did you learn this?

Anonymous MangoTan January 23, 2014 7:51 PM  

HEY! Who wants to play with my low hanging fruit?

Blogger TangoMan January 23, 2014 7:53 PM  

And where did you learn this?

Sigyn told me so.

Blogger tz January 23, 2014 8:04 PM  

There's even a song... Describing the effects of a less than lethal dose.

Some scientists (e.g. the fictional Bruce Banner) you don't want to make Mad. Though they may already be mad. Like Alfie E, a Newman. Or M. Mann of Apocalyptic - or is it Anthropogenic Climate Change.

Anonymous George of the Hole January 23, 2014 8:05 PM  

Sigyn told me so.

Young man, parading your ignorance like this should be embarrassing, but I suspect you rather wear your ignorance as a kind of mutatis mutandis badge of honor.



Anonymous zen0 January 23, 2014 8:07 PM  

@ tangoman

Yahweh was concocted in the minds of ignorant, superstitious savages who crapped their pants when thunder rolled down from the sky and so invented a god to whom they could appeal to stop his thundering ways. From this invention of Yahweh comes the Abrahamic religions.

Yahweh of the fables was always there to help his tribe conquer the neighboring tribe and he did battle with their gods and was victorious

So which is it?

Anonymous Anonymous January 23, 2014 8:13 PM  

@ TangoMan:
Your news of the disappearing of Yahweh is exaggerated. I know Yahweh, Father, son and Holy Spirit. I have heard His voice, and experienced His presence in my life. As for you understanding of the origins of religion; it was shown to be false by Andrew Lang between 1901 and his death in 1912, and more completely so by W. Schmidt in his "The Origin and Growth of Religion"

Blogger TangoMan January 23, 2014 8:28 PM  

An idea which displeases your delicate sensibilities =/ ignorance.

I've been blogging about human biodiversity, genetics, ancient cultures, rise of civilization for over a decade and concurrently been crushing the tender dreams of liberals as I visit their insular echo chambers. Hebrew origins and how the various gods of the time were symbolized and came into being and the evolutionary path of one such god towards the status of being God is a fascinating topic regardless of its mystical basis.

So if you want to make your criticism of my being ignorant on this, and related, topics you'll have to actually make a case rather than just assert a charge.

Don't mistake my point - I'm not evangelizing Atheism. I don't care what you believe. It's when I see faith-based positions masquerading as reality in a discussion that I chose to push back Recall that it was Peter Garstig who wrote Says the guy - created by God." instead of "Says the guy - created by God OF MY FAITH." Just who is this God and what are his historical origins as recorded by the fables and tales of the ancient Hebrews?

Blogger TangoMan January 23, 2014 8:31 PM  

So which is it?

They're not mutually exclusive statements. Are you focusing on this phrase "Yahweh of the fables was always there . . "?

If you are, then please read the word "always" as indicating that his presence, after he was created, was persistent. The shamans could call upon him when needed. Always used in this context doesn't imply from the dawn of time, from a time before the Hebrews created him.

Blogger Krul January 23, 2014 8:34 PM  

TangoMan - It's when I see faith-based positions masquerading as reality in a discussion that I chose to push back Recall that it was Peter Garstig who wrote Says the guy - created by God." instead of "Says the guy - created by God OF MY FAITH."

You can't very well expect a man to pretend he doesn't believe what he believes in deference to you.

Blogger TangoMan January 23, 2014 8:38 PM  

I know Yahweh, Father, son and Holy Spirit. I have heard His voice, and experienced His presence in my life.

Good for you. I'm not telling you that you didn't or that you're wrong.The fact that your neurons fired in a certain fashion and made you feel God's presence in your life doesn't though imply that he exists. Amputees feel phantom pain in limbs that they no longer possess. The pain that the feel is a real sensation but just because they feel that pain in limb doesn't mean that the limb is attached to their body. I don't doubt that they feel the pain, I reject a claim that the pain begins a limb which doesn't exist.

Blogger tz January 23, 2014 8:38 PM  

OT, but we don't need no steenkin warren

Blogger TangoMan January 23, 2014 8:40 PM  

You can't very well expect a man to pretend he doesn't believe what he believes in deference to you.

Well, I wasn't expecting this to snowball into such seriousness, hence my comment "this is fun." Look back at the comments - there was a series of evolving comments of the form "Says the guy. . . "

Anonymous zen0 January 23, 2014 8:44 PM  

They're not mutually exclusive statements. Are you focusing on this phrase "Yahweh of the fables was always there . . "?

I am referring to your shifting goalposts.
I the first quote, you say they wanted Him to stop "thundering"
In the second, you say they are thanking him for using His power.

In other words, your Straw Yaweh seems a figment of your fevered imagination, rather than that described in the texts.

I will give you a "D" grade, however, for having a smattering of familiarity.

However, your scholarship on the subject is wanting.. If you promise not to continue in your futile attempt to understand scripture , I will let you have the "D" grades so your grade point average is not further compromised.

Blogger TangoMan January 23, 2014 8:51 PM  

I am referring to your shifting goalposts.
I the first quote, you say they wanted Him to stop "thundering"
In the second, you say they are thanking him for using His power.


This is great. I'm enjoying all of this confident bravado you guys are dishing out.

Look. If there is a car horn blaring out in front of your house and you want it to stop you first have to identify the car and its owner. Once identified then you ask him to stop honking the horn. Thereafter you are free to call on him to use that horn honking power to further your ends.

Before you can stop the thunder you have to devise an agent who is causing the thunder. Once you're talking with this entity, then you can appeal to him to use his powers to aid your tribe.

Anonymous Sigyn January 23, 2014 8:57 PM  

hasn't been heard from since

And you know this...because...because...?

Nah, don't bother answering. The answer is "I don't KNOW that, I'm just saying that because I believe it. Or maybe I don't believe it. I'm kind of confused about what I'm actually trying to accomplish here, other than getting attention because I'm so smart, S-M-R-T."

Well, I wasn't expecting this to snowball into such seriousness

Sure you weren't, Tango Troll.

Anonymous Sigyn January 23, 2014 9:00 PM  

Look. If there is a car horn blaring out in front of your house and you want it to stop you first have to identify the car and its owner. Once identified then you ask him to stop honking the horn. Thereafter you are free to call on him to use that horn honking power to further your ends.

Don't drink and troll, kids!

Anonymous zen0 January 23, 2014 9:10 PM  

also @ tangoman

Before you can stop the thunder you have to devise an agent who is causing the thunder. Once you're talking with this entity, then you can appeal to him to use his powers to aid your tribe.

Yahweh of the fables was always there to help his tribe conquer the neighboring tribe and he did battle with their gods and was victorious

The quote you used was a paean to the God who came through. It was not an "appeal".

You are begging for a fail here.

Blogger TangoMan January 23, 2014 9:18 PM  

The quote you used was a paean to the God who came through.

Do you mean like when the football coach has all the players kneel down and pray to God to help them win a game and when they subsequently win the game that means that God "came through" for them?

Look, shamans have always been adept at deploying the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. That's how they built their own power. Same with Kings who held their position by the power of God(s).

Anonymous Jack Amok January 23, 2014 9:28 PM  

Possibly the problem here is centralizing all the decision making? You've got one and only one entity setting one and only one approved protocol for treatment. You've got laws and courts and review boards that will punish any doctor who doesn't follow the one and only one protocol. Then it turns out the guy in charge of the entity setting the protocol is a fraud. Of course, it's not always a fraud in that position, sometimes it's just a fool, and sometimes it's a decent enough person who lets the power go to their head.

But bottom line - nearly every time we centralize decision making on what appropriate medical care is, we end up with busted notions of care. Because "success" becomes capturing the regulatory body instead of presenting compelling evidence.

Anonymous Cash January 23, 2014 9:32 PM  

"That's how they built their own power. Same with Kings who held their position by the power of God(s)."

How's that any worse than the lying sack politicians you worship?

Anonymous zen0 January 23, 2014 9:33 PM  

Do you mean like when the football coach has all the players kneel down and pray to God to help them win a game and when they subsequently win the game that means that God "came through" for them?

If they have an undefeated season, year after year, you would be a fool not to follow suit.

All you have is false analogies and misapplication of metaphor. You have no understanding of the reading assignments.

You get an "E". Bye, bye, gpa.
This is not subject to appeal.

By the way, if you think this is harsh, if the muslims find out you are mocking Abraham, they will cut you in pieces, eat your organs, and sell your blood to the Saudis for atonement rituals.

Where is it you live, again?

Blogger TangoMan January 23, 2014 9:57 PM  

How's that any worse than the lying sack politicians you worship?

Where's that coming from? You're not mistaking me for some leftist, are you?

By the way, if you think this is harsh, if the muslims find out you are mocking Abraham, they will cut you in pieces, eat your organs, and sell your blood to the Saudis for atonement rituals.

Harsh? Naw. Look, I was stalked by Deb Frisch before she latched onto Jeff Goldstein. What you're writing isn't harsh. In fact, some leftist loons even had a bit of panache as they tried slagging me, to wit:

"Ah, the great and wonderous TangoMan crawls out of the slime to flog his association with "Steve Sailer" and try to get people to buy the same old line of race based analysis and so-called scientific proof.

Intelligence has nothing to do with race. Everything else TangoMan is waving around like a soiled copy of the unabomber manifesto is just boilerplate and bullshit, designed to advance a white supremacist agenda that hides behind the guise of "respectable" and "unbiased" scientific research.

Careful how you use the word "hack" there, buddy. You could wear that appelation like a flower in your lapel, that is, if your white sheet didn't already cover it up."


Hey, at least that troll had some style.

Anonymous zen0 January 23, 2014 10:18 PM  

Harsh? Naw. Look, I was stalked by Deb Frisch before she latched onto Jeff Goldstein. What you're writing isn't harsh.

As some in the Abrahamic rainbow of faith say, "yadda, yadda, yadda"

If someone wants to contact you, where can you be reached?

Blogger Longstreet January 23, 2014 10:21 PM  

"Yahweh was concocted in the minds of ignorant, superstitious savages who crapped their pants when thunder rolled down from the sky and so invented a god to whom they could appeal to stop his thundering ways. From this invention of Yahweh comes the Abrahamic religions."
Didn't someone recently write a book about pretending to know what you don't know?

Go in peace Tango. Your faith has made you hole.

Blogger TangoMan January 23, 2014 10:24 PM  

If someone wants to contact you, where can you be reached?

Click on my name, follow the links to the webpage, scout around for a contact link and your email will be forwarded to me.

Anonymous TangoAspieTard January 23, 2014 11:52 PM  

bronze age thor pink unicorns tribal idol me so clever santa clause

Anonymous damntull January 23, 2014 11:53 PM  

TangoMan makes one post after another employing the genetic fallacy. Nice work! Everything he says can be simply dismissed with a "So what?"

Anonymous TangoAspieTard January 23, 2014 11:56 PM  

thor bronze age tribal skydaddy spaghetti monster santa easter bunny unicorns!!!!

bronze age!!!

Anonymous Agent Tango January 23, 2014 11:57 PM  

Because documentary hypothesis.

Blogger IM2L844 January 24, 2014 12:00 AM  

Looks like we've been infected with one of those idiotic "Son=Sun" Zeitgeist groupies.

Blogger TangoMan January 24, 2014 12:24 AM  

Everything he says can be simply dismissed with a "So what?"

Indeed, it can. So what? Most everything can be dismissed the same way.

"I feel phantom pain in the arm that was amputated."
"So what?"

See.

"Vox usually pens three posts per day."
"So what?"

"Vox's traffic is greater than Scalzi's traffic."
"So what?"

"2+2=4"
"So what?"

Anonymous Y January 24, 2014 12:36 AM  

Science is more dangerous than religion... electric saws are more dangerous than hand saws. Adults are more dangerous than 3 year olds.

Very few things are useful without being dangerous and the more useful they are, the more dangerous they are.

--You should also be able to create life in it, then, since that whole abiogenesis thing is real and all. Go for it. We're all prepared to go on waiting; we're used to it by now.--

You should be able to cure blind people, since biblical claims that believers can perform any miracle they ask for in God's name is real and all. Go for it. We're all prepared to go on waiting; we're used to it by now. --

Anonymous FritzG January 24, 2014 12:50 AM  

Y makes some very good points. Where are the formerly blind Christian?

Anonymous Toby Temple January 24, 2014 1:09 AM  

C'mon, you science fetishists!

Global warming, overpopulation, nuclear warheads, chemical weapons, WMDs, potential black hole from europe.

Didn't science made those things?

Anonymous lurker January 24, 2014 1:11 AM  

"Y makes some very good points. Where are the formerly blind Christian?"

Examples of real miracles are out there if you look for them. But even if he is given verifiable proof what then? He'll still go on not believing so there is no point to his points. Just an atheist version of misery( or unbelief) loves company.

Blogger Tupla-J January 24, 2014 1:36 AM  

Soo... let's see if I got this down.

If God makes contact to a bronze age tribe, as opposed to, say, TangoMan, then obviously there is no God, since a bowl of chicken soup is real.

There was no Julius Caesar either! He's just an iron age myth, not something I can measure and therefore real!

Anonymous Y January 24, 2014 1:48 AM  

--Examples of real miracles are out there if you look for them.--

So... since religion is real and science is a fraud, you can show that huge numbers of people were cured of blindness by becoming Christians, while you have to look really hard for the blind people cured by vitamin A injections or cataract surgery.

"But even if he is given verifiable proof what then? He'll still go on not believing so there is no point to his points"

And you know this about me how, exactly? Other than it being a convenient excuse to avoid giving such proof? Or having to explain it's absence?

Anonymous Obvious January 24, 2014 1:49 AM  

The logic of this post is outstanding.

Anonymous Toby Temple January 24, 2014 1:51 AM  

So... since religion is real and science is a fraud,

Keep building that strawman!

Blogger TangoMan January 24, 2014 2:04 AM  

If God makes contact to a bronze age tribe, as opposed to, say, TangoMan, then obviously there is no God, since a bowl of chicken soup is real.

Yes, I know that God moves in ways that are mysterious to humans. Translation - anything can be excused by this observation. For instance, why did God want people in other tribes killed and enslaved in order for the people in the tribe he favored to be victorious in their wars and in their effort to quash the gods of the other tribes? Why didn't he just vanquish the false gods who held sway over the other tribes and love the people who had been led astray? God moves in mysterious ways and he had a reason why he wanted people killed, enslaved and vanquished. That's the ticket.

What of the god Yam who was hanging around before Genesis and had dominion over the sea (not in Yahweh's field of operations) and whose existence got erased by biased translations of ancient Hebrew texts to the point where the Lord is now read to have dominion over the sea as well as the other aspects of creation as recounted in Genesis?

Is the Bible true? If it is then which part is true, the original or the translations which change meanings and rewrite the story? The problem here is that what you think you know of the Bible is sometimes significantly at odds with what the early Hebrews knew.

Blogger TangoMan January 24, 2014 2:28 AM  

It's also worth noting that no priest or cleric has ever exploded a nuclear bomb in the name of Allah, Jesus Christ, or Damballah Wedo. There have been at least 2,084 nuclear explosions set off by scientists.

Yet God killed every living thing on the face of the Earth, with the exception of Noah and his passengers on the Ark, because he was miffed.

He killed mankind because mankind had free will and all except Noah and his family were unworthy, but why did he kill all those animals? Why didn't he make them into fish or guide them to lillypads where they could float out the storm or make them buoyant and able to live on the surface of the sea? Why did all those animals deserve to die? Why did he spare the fish and birds but condemn all those tigers and goats other land creatures?

Hurting God's feelings is not a smart thing to do because he likes to kill people (and animals) who do so. That makes him more dangerous than people who drop atomic bombs on Japanese cities

Anonymous VryeDenker January 24, 2014 2:29 AM  

You don't need a job because accounting is sufficient to explain how money flows in and out of your bank account.

Anonymous Doublemindedman January 24, 2014 3:01 AM  

Hurting God's feelings is not a smart thing to do because he likes to kill people (and animals) who do so. That makes him more dangerous than people who drop atomic bombs on Japanese cities"

So your plan is to just not believe in Him. I'm sure that will work!

Anonymous Toby Temple January 24, 2014 3:01 AM  

Hurting God's feelings is not a smart thing to do because he likes to kill people (and animals) who do so. That makes him more dangerous than people who drop atomic bombs on Japanese cities

When God destroys, He always warn and spare someone and more.

Who did the USA warned in Hiroshima and Nagasaki before dropping those bombs and who did they choose to spare?

Anonymous lurker January 24, 2014 3:30 AM  

"And you know this about me how, exactly? Other than it being a convenient excuse to avoid giving such proof? Or having to explain it's absence?"

Because you're not a special snowflake. Just another dime a dozen willful unbeliever.

Blogger TangoMan January 24, 2014 3:31 AM  

When God destroys, He always warn and spare someone and more.

It's too bad that we have no method of finding out exactly what those pre-flood people were doing that so pissed off God that he killed every living person on the planet except Noah's bunch. There sure is a lot of evil that has transpired since then so was the evil in the pre-flood era worse, has God moved to some other place and forgotten Earth, does he no longer care about setting humanity on the right path? Yeah, I know, the ways of God are mysterious.

Anonymous lurker January 24, 2014 3:34 AM  

"It's too bad that we have no method of finding out exactly what those pre-flood people were doing that so pissed off God that he killed every living person on the planet except Noah's bunch."

Read the bible it's right there in the text it was because of their wickedness that they were destroyed.

Anonymous Toby Temple January 24, 2014 3:35 AM  

Oh, Tango. Never read the Book of Revelations, haven't you?

Anonymous lurker January 24, 2014 3:37 AM  

"There sure is a lot of evil that has transpired since then so was the evil in the pre-flood era worse?"

Probably. One thing is for certain it was widespread.

Anonymous Tommy Hass January 24, 2014 3:43 AM  

"Says the guy - created by God." instead of "Says the guy - created by God OF MY FAITH."

I now believe Vox' "autist atheists" theory.

The second version would destroy the punch of the statement you asswad.

Anonymous Sigyn January 24, 2014 4:39 AM  

You should be able to cure blind people, since biblical claims that believers can perform any miracle they ask for in God's name is real and all. Go for it. We're all prepared to go on waiting; we're used to it by now.

"Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself. Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. And He has said to me, 'My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.' Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ’s sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong." 2 Corinthians 12:7-10

You will now come up with some mocking dismissal, or claim that this is proof that God doesn't exist.

"Y" will you do this? Because you are blinded by conceit, like TangentMan.

Anonymous The Great Martini January 24, 2014 4:39 AM  


In TIA, I pointed out that if the New Atheists were consistent, they would be arguing for the elimination of science on the same basis that they argue for the end of religion.


Technically, the New Atheists include science in their admonishment, since it's the potential for destruction that modern science provides, combined with the willingness to use it that poses the danger. The question is, which component of the threat is more amenable to neutralization. You have to realize that there are attempts to curb science that are ongoing, for example bans on cloning, the attempts to end Iran's nuclear enrichment program.

For a number of technical, economic, and political reasons, I don't see how you can stop science. You can't get the genie back in the bottle, and in fact you can't stop more genies from popping out of them, since there is massive incentive to be on the forefront of scientific breakthrough. Trouble is, I don't see how you can stop religion either, so it's kind of a standoff.

Anonymous Prof William Huggins of Ettemoor University January 24, 2014 5:00 AM  

Tangoman, your mom called. She asked me to remind you to be home before sunrise.

Anonymous Sigyn January 24, 2014 5:12 AM  

For a number of technical, economic, and political reasons, I don't see how you can stop science.

Well, the conventional "wisdom" is that all you need is religion, and BOOM! Science can't happen. Remember Galileo!!!

Anonymous cj January 24, 2014 6:38 AM  

"since there is massive incentive to be on the forefront of scientific breakthrough"

global, cough, warming?

Anonymous cj January 24, 2014 6:47 AM  

wait, wasn't jesus around in the IRON age?

I am sure Tango has a real point,however. when his puppy was run over back in 1991,where was god then, huh?

oh yeah, "the lord moves in mysterious ways" plus other fake bible quotes, snap!

if the phony god can smite the earth back in the age of noah, can he make me a sammich on demand to prove his existance?

I DEMAND YOU SHOW YOURSELF, YOU COSMIC BUTLER.

because science and bronze age!

Blogger IM2L844 January 24, 2014 7:12 AM  

Well, the conventional "wisdom" is that all you need is religion, and BOOM! Science can't happen. Remember Galileo!!!

Too nuanced, Sigyn. I think you're going to have to dumb things down a bit more for this latest wave.

Anonymous Anonymous January 24, 2014 7:52 AM  

Per the medical murders - I'm not so sure I would believe the numbers

Anonymous Anonymous January 24, 2014 11:33 AM  

Winner for ME..
"My best guess is that the Don Poldermans (or fill in the blank)of this world strongly believe they are doing good, though that may lead to cutting corners and, then, covering up the corner cutting."

The cover-up is ALWAYS worse than the crime.
CaptDMO

Anonymous yukonyon January 24, 2014 12:40 PM  

Tangoman, ...zz ž. Ž.
We've all heard the conflation of the god of the spontaneous generation of complex code out of deoxyribonucleic acid, to the god of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The only difference is, since we're both up against the wall as far as science reproducability, you don't have any witness testimony. It's a stale joke, and we're hoping you have the social saavy to recognize that old jokes become an annoyance. Perhaps this is insanity on our parts...

Anonymous yukonyon January 24, 2014 1:27 PM  

Hey Vox, is this a new one or what?

-Primordial soup is somewhat analogous to chicken soup.

- I can hold chicken soup in my hand.

- Therefore, deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) must've assembled itself into complex code within numberless amounts of perfunctory phospholipid bubbles, simply because incalculable numbers make possible the most statistically unlikely of events.

Anonymous Alat January 24, 2014 3:10 PM  

Vox, St. Bartholomew's Night was in 1572, more than a century after the end of the Middle Ages, conventionally dated in 1453 when Constantinople fell to the Turks.

Blogger TangoMan January 24, 2014 5:36 PM  

You can't very well expect a man to pretend he doesn't believe what he believes in deference to you.

You mean like a big burly dude feeling like he is a woman trapped inside of a man's body and thus refers to himself as a woman compels me to address him as though he is a woman?

Anonymous Inane Rambler January 24, 2014 10:12 PM  

Those who were really in the know knew fears that the atmosphere would boil away were hokum.

Blogger Martin S. January 24, 2014 11:57 PM  

"Furthermore, the press never investigated the dramatic upward and downward shifts in the mortality rates of elderly Americans that so closely tracked the introduction and recall of Vioxx; as I pointed out in a 2012 article, these indicated that the likely death toll had actually been several times greater than the FDA estimate. Vast numbers Americans died, no one was punished, and almost everyone has now forgotten."
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/our-american-pravda/

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