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Saturday, April 26, 2014

Am I a racist?

Back when I first responded to NK Jemisin's various attacks and lies in my inimitably calm and factual manner, the SFWA writers reacted with much the same combination of outrage and vitriol with which the Pink SF/Fers have met the news of the nomination of one of my works for the Hugo Award. However, when I invited them to attempt to prove that anything I said was a) false, or, b) racist, every single one of them tucked tail and ran away. Every single one of them.

Patrick Nielsen Hayden was nothing but talk. John Scalzi was nothing but talk. Stephen Gould was nothing but talk. Jason Sanford was nothing but talk. Teresa Nielsen Hayden was nothing but talk. Charles Stross was nothing but talk. Every single one of these self-proclaimed champions of the marginalized and the oppressed fell silent rather than defend their supposed principles.

This may be because they were afraid that I could make my case, or perhaps they simply feared to have their own secret racism exposed to their peers. It's even possible they were sufficiently self-aware to realize how silly they would look if they attempted to define racism down to  "being insufficiently obsequious to an individual of predominantly sub-Saharan descent."

So, perhaps the larger community of fen is capable of doing what the SFWA community was not, which is actually proving the truth of their oft-repeated charges. I'm therefore extending an invitation to publicly make the case for my supposed racism to anyone who has asserted that I am a racist on the basis of my statements concerning "the educated, but ignorant half-savage" NK Jemisin.

If you truly believe what you are asserting about me, then I invite you to demonstrate the truth of your beliefs here. It should be easy, after all, right? If my statements are so blatantly racist as you claim them to be, how could you not show it to all and sundry. I will not only post your argument here in its entirety, but am willing to honestly answer any questions you might have, without evasion, with the sole requirement that you must agree to honestly answer my questions, without evasion, until we mutually agree that no further discussion is possible.

And if no one steps forward, well, everyone will then know that these accusations of racism are spurious, those making them don't truly believe what they are saying, and none of the accusers have the courage of their supposedly anti-racist convictions. The black community will know that for all their talk of inclusiveness and equality, not a single white individual in SF/F was willing to stand up and defend them. And let's face it, if every single anti-racist in the community is afraid to publicly confront racists, then it should be readily apparent that the racists are going to win in the end.

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546 Comments:

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Anonymous Idle Spectator Jackson April 26, 2014 2:57 PM  

jacksssson gots ur back!

Anonymous hygate April 26, 2014 3:03 PM  

I predict that anyone who actually attempts to "prove" you are raciss will be spouting variations on "its self-evident that Vox is raciss."

Cause if white women belly dancing is raciss then what isn't raciss?

Anonymous Soga April 26, 2014 3:04 PM  

And before the trolls get in on the action, we need to establish a solid dictionary definition of racism:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racism

1. Belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. A policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. Hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.


They can latch onto that part about the "belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement". But if I am not mistaken, VD, you do not believe that inherent racial traits DETERMINE cultural or individual achievement, but rather INFLUENCE cultural or individual achievements. Which is to say, yes, there are probably black people who, aside from their skin color, are essentially socially no different from whites. But that those would generally most likely be outliers.

Is that a more or less correct rendition of what VD believes about racial differences?

Of course, something must be said of the "anti-racists" who generally seem to believe that people of different races do in fact have attributes which negatively affect their cultural or individual achievements in the West. After all, what is affirmative action if not the belief that those people can't cut it in our society and need our help? It's still racism, just of the opposite polarity.

The opposite of white supremacist racism is not anti-racism; it is pathological racial altruism disguised as anti-racism.

And how many anti-racists actually secretly believe that whites are inferior and need to be ruled over by the minorities (or the honorary-black/honorary-latino white liberal elites)?

Anonymous RTaylor April 26, 2014 3:09 PM  

The accuser’s definition of racism is a moving target…
If they admit that they themselves are racists, and that really all of humanity is actually racist, which would include you… would you consider that proof enough?

Anonymous Dongelroy April 26, 2014 3:11 PM  

I'm therefore extending an invitation to publicly make the case for my supposed racism to anyone who has asserted that I am a racist on the basis of my statements concerning "the educated, but ignorant half-savage" NK Jemisin.

We would need to know why you think she is half-savage.

Anonymous physphilmusic April 26, 2014 3:14 PM  

I don't disagree with most of what Vox says on race, including all of this Jemisin affair and the time-to-civilization hypothesis. The only thing which I did disagree was when Vox said that it is justifiable to discriminate even against black people who are acting perfectly decently and civilized, in the interest of the greater good (because due to regression towards the mean, the said relatives and descendants of that black person will likely not be as civilized). That's a very utilitarian stance which just doesn't sit with me. I don't know if that's enough to make him a "racist", since the definition of that word is so malleable these days.

Anonymous Ciaran April 26, 2014 3:15 PM  

Define racist.

One definition is: "a person who believes that a particular race is superior to another." You appear to meet the criterion of that definition. You believe that blacks are intellectually inferior to whites (in terms of having a lower median IQ), do you not?

That doesn't mean you are incorrect. A common leftprog fallacy is conflate morality and factuality, at least when it is convenient for them to do so. Or more accurately, to assert a political position as a moral premise, then to deny facts inconsistent with that premise. To a leftprog, the accusation of "racist" asserts simultaneously that you are politically incorrect, morally deficient, and factually wrong.

Anonymous VD April 26, 2014 3:16 PM  

If they admit that they themselves are racists, and that really all of humanity is actually racist, which would include you… would you consider that proof enough?

Of course, assuming they can make that case.

We would need to know why you think she is half-savage.

I already said I would answer any questions posed. Any questions relevant to the topic at hand, that is.

Anonymous Salt April 26, 2014 3:17 PM  

My being Scots-Irish, a bit of Dutch and with a goodly dose of the German, what Gen. Patton called "The Hun," my roots are definately half-savage, probably Kelt, and who the hell knows about the Irish.

Thank God for the Romans.

Anonymous Soga April 26, 2014 3:17 PM  

Dongelroy:
"We would need to know why you think she is half-savage."

VD has explained it before. Your job is to look for it and prove that the "half-savage" comment is a racist comment. But if you don't know why he thinks she is a half-savage, you have no right to assert that he was making a racist comment, because you don't even know what it was in reference to.

Anonymous physphilmusic April 26, 2014 3:17 PM  

Ah, but Ciaran, Vox has answered the question "Do you believe a particular race is superior to another?" multiple times on this blog. The answer is: "By what metric?"

"Superiority" is a word which doesn't mean much on its on. Superior in what sense? IQ? Morality? Physical attributes? Having a right to rule?

Anonymous Speaker-To-SFWAs April 26, 2014 3:18 PM  

Get your Bingo card here, before the big event. (H/T to original poster from Correia's site, whose work I tweaked a bit.)

Anonymous VD April 26, 2014 3:18 PM  

Is that a more or less correct rendition of what VD believes about racial differences?

Let whoever steps up make their case. They will have to define racism and then show that I fit that definition. There is no need to anticipate their arguments; I am perfectly capable of dealing with whatever is presented.

Blogger Ciaran April 26, 2014 3:21 PM  

The answer is: "By what metric?"

Yes, and I specified the metric - median IQ.

In common leftprog usage, any assertion of racial superiority by any metric is racist. Unless it's to the disadvantage of whites, or course.

Blogger tz April 26, 2014 3:23 PM  

Races as races are different, and thus superior or inferior depending on the question, e.g. the need for sunscreen.

I think the question goes more to whether someone thinks races are morally inferior, or more or less human.

Note, even without the subtitle of the seminal work, Darwinists are all racists, and they admitted it shamelessly and clearly. Eugenics is merely human Darwinism, and just read Margaret Sanger's Pivot of Civilization and consider her organization murders a disproportionate number of black babies (Think Asia where they murder girl babies). Compared with the new Atheists, Vox isn't even close.

Yet Vox sounds darwinian when trying to explain civilization.

Anonymous Dongelroy April 26, 2014 3:25 PM  

I already said I would answer any questions posed. Any questions relevant to the topic at hand, that is.

If they are accusing you of being a racist because you called someone a half-savage, how in the wide wide world of sports is that not a relevant question?

Your job is to look for it and prove that the "half-savage" comment is a racist comment

Soga; calling a black woman a half-savage may or may not be racist depending on why one believes she is half-savage.

Anonymous Anti-Democracy Activist April 26, 2014 3:25 PM  

I think Fred Reed's latest is apropos here:

http://fredoneverything.net/LaudableRacism.shtml

Anonymous Monkey Boy April 26, 2014 3:26 PM  

When you called her a half-savage were you calling her that purely due to her race or was it because of her specific behavior in that instance?

Blogger Nate April 26, 2014 3:29 PM  

"My being Scots-Irish, a bit of Dutch and with a goodly dose of the German, what Gen. Patton called "The Hun," my roots are definately half-savage, probably Kelt, and who the hell knows about the Irish. "

I'm greek. You're all barbarians a few generations removed from painting your asses blue and eating each other to me.

Anonymous VD April 26, 2014 3:31 PM  

When you called her a half-savage were you calling her that purely due to her race or was it because of her specific behavior in that instance?

You could say both, although less because of her specific behavior than the nature of her thinking indicated by her words. I observed her cargo-cult thinking regarding the development of SF literature.

Anonymous Soga April 26, 2014 3:33 PM  

Dongelroy
"Soga; calling a black woman a half-savage may or may not be racist depending on why one believes she is half-savage."

And I have said before that VD has elaborated on why he believes she is a half-savage. The onus is on you to prove that the reason VD has given for it is sufficient to assert that he is a racist.

That is the challenge VD is issuing. Put up or shut up.

Anonymous Don April 26, 2014 3:37 PM  

Vox - kind of OT but can I ask why Gypsies have not become civilized? Why after a thousand or so years of contact with European culture do they persist in what by any measure is 'savage' behaviors? If merely being exposed to Western Culture was enough to civilize a culture you'd think they'd be there by now.

If I'm out of line just tell me I'm off topic.

Anonymous Salt April 26, 2014 3:37 PM  

But Nate, we did catch up. Many of us are even southerners.

Anonymous Concerned Rabbit Hunter April 26, 2014 3:39 PM  

"Vox - kind of OT but can I ask why Gypsies have not become civilized?"

Perhaps because they don't want to or don't need to.

Anonymous VD April 26, 2014 3:42 PM  

If merely being exposed to Western Culture was enough to civilize a culture you'd think they'd be there by now.

They explicitly reject it and remain a nomadic raiding culture. Americans have NO IDEA how uncivilized they are. I was once on a highway in Switzerland and saw scores of their caravans being escorted by more than 100 police cars, with the various exits along the way shut down and patrolled by armed soldiers.

Blogger Nate April 26, 2014 3:44 PM  

'But Nate, we did catch up. Many of us are even southerners."

I remain skeptical of those who've been civilized for less than 1000 years.

Blogger Old Rebel April 26, 2014 3:45 PM  

"Racism" is an agitprop term cooked up by communists, and is used today by the Cultural Marxists to undermine traditional society. They toss that term at anyone who fails to embrace the CM agenda.

We should not use that term any more than we should use the terminology of Scientologists. If you use their terms, you're acceding to their core philosophy.

Blogger Ciaran April 26, 2014 3:46 PM  

I remain skeptical of those who've been civilized for less than 1000 years.

1000 years is plenty of time to revert to savagery.

Blogger Luke P April 26, 2014 3:48 PM  

Racism is a Socialist construct.

Anonymous Dongelroy April 26, 2014 3:50 PM  

You could say both

Well then, you are a racist. You believe someone is half savage based on their race.

But you need to remember that none of these people were shocked to discover that you were a racist based on your comments to NK Jemisin. It was just more icing on the cake.

It pretty much boils down to your belief in race realism or HBD or whatever the term is now, coupled with a belief in the "superiority" of western civilization, coupled with your "time to civilization" metric.

Anonymous YIH April 26, 2014 3:51 PM  

Dongleroy:
See that search box in the upper-left hand corner? Guess what? It works!

Anonymous SkinDeep April 26, 2014 3:52 PM  

"And if no one steps forward, well, everyone will then know that these accusations of racism are spurious"

That's a ridiculous statement. That's like saying if you don't beat up a mean little kid it means he's tougher than you are. But both the little kid, and you, have no real defense to offer.

Anonymous Dongelroy April 26, 2014 3:53 PM  

Thanks YIH, but we got to the heart of the matter already.

Anonymous VD April 26, 2014 3:56 PM  

Well then, you are a racist. You believe someone is half savage based on their race.

No, Dongelroy. Having an opinion about an individual, positive or negative, based on their race is not racism. That's not only nonsensical, it's borderline retarded. I also believe NK Jemisin has fewer Neanderthal genes, based on her race. I believe she is more susceptible to diabetes and sarcoidosis based on her race.

And so do you, assuming you're not a complete idiot.

It pretty much boils down to your belief in race realism or HBD or whatever the term is now, coupled with a belief in the "superiority" of western civilization, coupled with your "time to civilization" metric.

Do you believe all civilizations are the same?

Look, you're going about this the wrong way and you're in over your head. You're just begging the question and assuming facts not in evidence.

Anonymous Speaker-To-SFWAs April 26, 2014 3:58 PM  

That's a ridiculous statement. That's like saying if you don't beat up a mean little kid it means he's tougher than you are. But both the little kid, and you, have no real defense to offer.

Already two-fifths of the way towards a complete Bingo!

Anonymous FangFan April 26, 2014 3:58 PM  

You virtually called a black woman a "nigger" and then threatened to shoot her. Now you are trying to weasel out of your own racisim. You are a COWARD and a fascist racist sexist homophobic dipshit.

Anonymous MrGreenMan April 26, 2014 3:59 PM  

@Ciaran

These are all equally good metrics as being somewhat arbitrary, right?

Number of Nobel Laureates, literature only
Number of Nobel Laureates, chemistry only
Fields Medal winners
Rap battle victories
Standing vertical leap
Fifty yard dash time
Clean and jerk
Greatest number of goals scored in World Cup Soccer
Musical ability - classical
Musical ability - delta blues
Marksmanship - iron sights - no scopes - in winter, against Russians
Marksmanship - slingshot
Chess
Go
Swimming distance records
IQ
BMI
Number of gold records

Anonymous VD April 26, 2014 3:59 PM  

That's a ridiculous statement. That's like saying if you don't beat up a mean little kid it means he's tougher than you are. But both the little kid, and you, have no real defense to offer.

No, it's more like saying that if you don't beat up the mean little kid when he pushes you down and takes your lunch money, he's tougher than you are. Because he is.

Thanks YIH, but we got to the heart of the matter already.

Not even close. You're obviously not tall enough for this ride. A truly embarrassing performance.

Anonymous FangFan April 26, 2014 4:01 PM  

wehuntedthemammoth.com/2014/04/24/hugo-nominated-vox-day-even-worse-than-you-think

Anonymous Dongelroy April 26, 2014 4:02 PM  

I believe she is more susceptible to diabetes and sarcoidosis based on her race.

Yes, ethnicities are different (and civilizations). Let's just be clear, when you said "you could say both" I took you to mean that you called her a half-savage because of her race. Which implies (as I'm reading it) that being of a particular race gives one a higher chance of being half-savage.

And unless you consider being half-savage a neutrual characterist, that's racist.

Anonymous VD April 26, 2014 4:02 PM  

You virtually called a black woman a "nigger" and then threatened to shoot her. Now you are trying to weasel out of your own racisim. You are a COWARD and a fascist racist sexist homophobic dipshit.

Oh, I am more than willing to own my "racisim", whatever that is. And now I threatened to shoot her? Really? There are illiterate, low-IQ bushmen in the sub-Sahara who would be embarrassed to produce an argument that feeble.

These anti-racists are astonishingly smart, aren't they....

Anonymous Stg58/Animal Mother April 26, 2014 4:03 PM  

Well, I think I speak for everyone here when I ask the most important question of this debate: "What does Naven Johnson think?"

Anonymous VD April 26, 2014 4:04 PM  

And unless you consider being half-savage a neutrual characterist, that's racist.

Again, you're making numerous assumptions you can't support. Anyhow, you had your chance and it's clear you're not even capable of constructing a basic argument. This isn't a "gotcha" game, you have to actually provide a coherent logical syllogism.

Anonymous Don April 26, 2014 4:04 PM  

Vox - Thanks. So no hope for another thousand years assuming forced assimilation? Good luck with that. Any chance India would want them back?

Blogger Nate April 26, 2014 4:05 PM  

"Not even close. You're obviously not tall enough for this ride. A truly embarrassing performance."

Mate I don't think he's saying those things make you a racist. He is saying those are the reasons you are being called a racist. Not the same.

Anonymous Dongelroy April 26, 2014 4:05 PM  

Again, you're making numerous assumptions you can't support.

Do you consider being half-savage better or wose than being Civilized?

Blogger Nate April 26, 2014 4:08 PM  

"And unless you consider being half-savage a neutrual characterist, that's racist."

nonsense. sickle cell is not neutral and being black certainly increases the chance you'll have it.

So doctors who educate blacks about sickle cell are racist?

Anonymous Concerned Rabbit Hunter April 26, 2014 4:09 PM  

"And unless you consider being half-savage a neutrual characterist, that's racist."

I don't recall you specifying the definition of racism you adhere to. Is it:

"Making truthful statements about a particular race that you object to?"

Anonymous Stg58/Animal Mother April 26, 2014 4:10 PM  

I think we can all learn a lot from Naven Johnson's narrative and life experience.

Blogger Eric Wilson April 26, 2014 4:10 PM  

Dongelroy,

And unless you consider being half-savage a neutrual characterist, that's racist.

Do you consider susceptibility to sickle-cell anemia a "neutrual characterist?"

Anonymous FangFan April 26, 2014 4:10 PM  

“It is not that I, and others, do not view [Jemisin] as human, (although genetic science presently suggests that we are not equally homo sapiens sapiens), it is that we simply do not view her as being fully civilized for the obvious historical reason that she is not… The laws [Stand Your Ground Laws’ are not there to let whites “just shoot people like me, without consequence, as long as they feel threatened by my presence”, those self-defense laws have been put in place to let whites defend their lives and their property from people, like her, who are half-savages engaged in attacking them."

Anonymous Speaker-To-SFWAs April 26, 2014 4:10 PM  

There are illiterate, low-IQ bushmen in the sub-Sahara who would be embarrassed to produce an argument that feeble.

He actually managed to fill out seven spaces in my card with *one* posting. We may be looking at the Matt Biondi of Pink SF stooopid, right here. ;)

Anonymous Philalethes April 26, 2014 4:11 PM  

You believe someone is half savage based on their race.

Dongleroy, you're going to have to learn to think very clearly and express yourself very carefully if you want to enter the ring here. If this statement were true, then one could expect Mr. Day to declare Thomas Sowell or Walter Williams (or my favorite African-American writer, Wilton Alston) "half-savage". Which I doubt is going to happen. Race is a factor, yes—along with many others—but it's not the only factor. One can be reasonably called "racist" only if race is the only factor in one's attitude toward others, or at very least the factor that trumps all others. By which metric, btw, most of those who so bitterly criticize Mr Day actually can be reasonably characterized as "racist".

Anonymous Don April 26, 2014 4:11 PM  

Nate - Duckspeak is duckspeak. Doubleplusungood Crimethink is enough to convict Vox in their minds. They don't want a debate they think their beliefs are laws of nature. I am sure that they feel that no argument against Vox is in bad faith or off limits even or perhaps especially if it is a lie. In their mind he deserves no fairness or any hearing whatsoever. Deep down they know their logic doesn't hold up that's why they keep repeating the same duckspeak.

Blogger Eric Wilson April 26, 2014 4:11 PM  

awww, crap, Nate beat me to it.

Blogger Nate April 26, 2014 4:12 PM  

FangFan... you're a moron. There is no threat to shoot anyone in that quote.

Anonymous kh123 April 26, 2014 4:12 PM  

"Yes, ethnicities are different (and civilizations)."

Ethnicities. They are different. Somehow. In an unspoken manner. Thus spoke... whoever is posting as Dongelroy.

Anonymous REG April 26, 2014 4:12 PM  

Slightly OT but, I think relevant- When this mess started, an author named Will ? posted on his website an invitation to you and NK Jemisin to state your beliefs on his website. I remember you quickly posted your viewpoint on his site for all to see in regard to race. My question is, did she ever respond and post her position on race on his website?

Anonymous Dongelroy April 26, 2014 4:14 PM  

Do you consider susceptibility to sickle-cell anemia a "neutrual characterist?"

In a way, given it's origins.

Blogger Nate April 26, 2014 4:14 PM  

"Nate - Duckspeak is duckspeak"

Agreed. It appears I was reading in an overly charitable manner.

Blogger Nate April 26, 2014 4:15 PM  

"In a way, given it's origins."

/facepalm

DONGELROY YOU STUPID SLUT

Anonymous Dongelroy April 26, 2014 4:18 PM  

Philalethes; no, we have different definitions. I would hold that one can be reasonably called "racist" if race is a factor in one's attitude toward others, and by others I mean specific individuals.

And yes, everyone is racist. It's whether you try to mitigate it or not that is the difference.

Anonymous Stg58/Animal Mother April 26, 2014 4:19 PM  

DONGLEROY YOU MISGUIDED IGNORANT SLUT

Blogger Eric Wilson April 26, 2014 4:19 PM  

Heh. From Wikipedia:

In 1994, in the US, the average life expectancy of persons with [sickle-cell anemia] was estimated to be 42 years in males and 48 years in females,

Anonymous VD April 26, 2014 4:21 PM  

And yes, everyone is racist. It's whether you try to mitigate it or not that is the difference.

So, this means you are a self-admitted racist, correct?

Blogger Ciaran April 26, 2014 4:21 PM  

@ MrGreenMan

wow just wow - you actually mentioned slingshots?! Raciss!!!

Anonymous Dongelroy April 26, 2014 4:21 PM  

Eric; wikipedia also mentions something about an advantage confired by the disease...

Anonymous Dongelroy April 26, 2014 4:22 PM  

So, this means you are a self-admitted racist, correct?

Yeah, but you are a lot worse...

Anonymous Speaker-To-SFWAs April 26, 2014 4:22 PM  

And yes, everyone is racist.

Speak only for yourself; it's all you're qualified to do.

Anonymous Stg58/Animal Mother April 26, 2014 4:25 PM  

DONGLEROY YOU MISGUIDED SLIGHTLY RACIST IGNORANT SLUT WITHOUT SO MUCH RAT IN IT

Anonymous kh123 April 26, 2014 4:25 PM  

Back to the wine cellar for you, Tad.

Blogger Nate April 26, 2014 4:26 PM  

"And yes, everyone is racist. It's whether you try to mitigate it or not that is the difference."

oh I see... its the trying that matters.... not the actual mitigation... just that you tried.

Blogger Nate April 26, 2014 4:27 PM  

"Yeah, but you are a lot worse..."

Because TRY!

Anonymous FangFan April 26, 2014 4:28 PM  

You threatened violence against a black woman because you believe she is "inferior" ...not even Hitler put that into print.

Anonymous Stg58/Animal Mother April 26, 2014 4:28 PM  

Yes, Nate. Success only involves caring.

Anonymous VD April 26, 2014 4:29 PM  

Yeah, but you are a lot worse...

Dongleroy, I am not a racist. I stand by that statement. You, however, are a self-described racist, which ironically enough is one of the things NK Jemisin wrongly accused me of being. You should probably stop now before you admit to being sexist and homophobic as well.

Blogger Eric Wilson April 26, 2014 4:29 PM  

threatened

Wasn't someone posting about Humpty Dumpty here recently?

Anonymous Stg58/Animal Mother April 26, 2014 4:29 PM  

Fangfan, he did nothing of the sort.

Blogger Nate April 26, 2014 4:30 PM  

"You threatened violence against a black woman because you believe she is "inferior" ...not even Hitler put that into print."

VOX IS WORSE THAN HITLER!!!!!

Anonymous YIH April 26, 2014 4:30 PM  

physphilmusic:
The only thing which I did disagree was when Vox said that it is justifiable to discriminate even against black people who are acting perfectly decently and civilized, in the interest of the greater good (because due to regression towards the mean, the said relatives and descendants of that black person will likely not be as civilized).
I speak for myself NOT FOR VOX, that I think with rare exceptions, (Bill Cosby and Thomas Sowell come to mind) that Africans IN America (or for that matter, anywhere else) can no longer be given 'the benefit of the doubt' as to whether or not they can be 'citizens' wherever they happen to be.
If a million sub-saharan Africans come to Italy does that make them Italians? I think not.
With rare exceptions African wildlife like Grey Parrots, Gorillas and Chimpanzees cannot be considered 'human'.
They can no longer say ''we be people, if you don't like it you raciss'' and think that's a ''get out of jail free card''.
Not only has the 'race card' hit it's 'credit limit' just presenting it tells me you are inferior.

Anonymous Alexander April 26, 2014 4:31 PM  

I don't think self-described racists have much of a leg to stand on, throwing about outrageous accusations. Eh, Dongleroy?

Anonymous VD April 26, 2014 4:31 PM  

You threatened violence against a black woman because you believe she is "inferior" ...not even Hitler put that into print.

No, I did not. Quoting statements with which we are all familiar and demonstrating your lack of reading comprehension is not an effective means of argument.

You're actually dumber than the guy who only managed to prove he was a self-described racist.

Anonymous Stg58/Animal Mother April 26, 2014 4:31 PM  

There is a possibility that Dongleroy also eats kittena, a lá Michael Vick.

Anonymous Dongelroy April 26, 2014 4:32 PM  

Dongleroy, I am not a racist.

You are by my measure, see my comment to Philalethes. Have a good rest of your evening.

Anonymous Speaker-To-SFWAs April 26, 2014 4:32 PM  

You threatened violence against a black woman

Why not accuse him of kidnapping and eating the Lindbergh baby, while you're at it? You've provided just as much evidence for one as you have the other.

Anonymous DrW April 26, 2014 4:32 PM  

We must mobilize!!!!

Anonymous MrGreenMan April 26, 2014 4:33 PM  

@Ciaran

I wanted the Celts to win at something.

Anonymous Stg58/Animal Mother April 26, 2014 4:34 PM  

Vencerémos!

Anonymous Alexander April 26, 2014 4:34 PM  

Let me throw this out there:

Once a population has a sizable number of posters like our friend O'Brien yesterday, who openly stated his desire for the extermination of white males, and white women to be allowed to continue breathing provided they became sex toys for 'persons of color'... how can we possibly give that population any 'benefit of doubt'?

Or for you instinctively 'RACISS' screamers, let me ask you this? If an Indian could time travel back to 1492 today, would you think it reasonable for him to warn Four Eagle and Dancing Bear that the minute white man appear, every one of them should be beaten to death with the nearest rock, individual merits be damned?

Anonymous El Duderino April 26, 2014 4:34 PM  

"You threatened violence against a black woman because you believe she is "inferior" ...not even Hitler put that into print."

Dude, really? You drop the Hitler card less then 100 comments in?

Fucking amateurs...

Anonymous Don April 26, 2014 4:34 PM  

Fang - I know this is Vox's rodeo but could you please point out where Vox threatened to shoot Jemisin? Because I've read the statement and nowhere is there a threat in it. Unless you are saying that laws allowing someone (not Vox since he is in Italy) shooting someone who is trying to assault you is a threat. In that case you completely fail reading comprehension or you are accusing Jemisin of trying to assault and rob people. Is Jemisin a criminal with an intention to rob people or are you just wrong? Or perhaps you believe that it's okay to be robbed and assaulted?

Anonymous Stg58/Animal Mother April 26, 2014 4:35 PM  

Play Boudica on Civ 5 if that is what you desire, Mr.Greenman.

Anonymous Bruno Hauptmann April 26, 2014 4:36 PM  

Mmmmmmm....

Anonymous Contaminated NEET April 26, 2014 4:39 PM  

Easily done, VD, but not all that meaningful.

First, I define a "racist" as a person who believes there are differences between the races other than mere skin color and appearance.

Next, I find a statement you made indicating you believe these differences exist. Let's see... "It is absurd to imagine that there is absolutely no link between race and intelligence. [...] While the relationship between race and intelligence has not yet been fully understood, there is far more reliable evidence for the existence of such a relationship than there is for many widely-accepted scientific theories [...]"

QED, VD is a racist. What do I win?

You might quibble with my definition of "racist," and that's fair - it doesn't perfectly match any of the major dictionaries - but it is a commonly used definition of the word.

Part of the political and rhetorical utility of the word is its broad meaning. A racist can mean someone who believes there are differences between races, and it can mean a frothing madman who wants to exterminate all races other than his own. It's easy and fun to prove someone is a racist by the first definition, then imply that he's been proven to fit the second because the same word is used for both.

Anonymous Philalethes April 26, 2014 4:39 PM  

I would hold that one can be reasonably called "racist" if race is a factor in one's attitude toward others, and by others I mean specific individuals.

Well, now you've defined the term down so far that it's practically meaningless, but still you want to use it to totally condemn a person as a worthless and despicable human being?

And yes, everyone is racist. It's whether you try to mitigate it or not that is the difference.

Is race the only factor which may contribute to ones evaluation of others' behavior or arguments which should be mitigated? Or are there other such factors? Such as, for instance, age, or "gender"? Education? Knowledge or skill in the area of concern? If your car wasn't working, who would you take it to?

I'm sorry, you're not making sense. You're trying to build the semblance of a "rational" argument to support your use of the word "racist" as an emotionally loaded term. You're failing. If you want to use the term as a bludgeon, you have a very large burden of proof to meet.

Oh, now I see you've apparently declared yourself victory and bowed out. Must you be so predictable? I'd really like to see somebody give Mr. Day a run for his money.

You remind me of a woman I knew once; one day in considerable exasperation I told her, "That's not logical!" She replied, "I'm not logical." Oh. I learned a lot from that woman.

Anonymous VD April 26, 2014 4:42 PM  

Easily done, VD, but not all that meaningful.

Of course. You could simply redefine "racism" as "breathing oxygen". QED. Which, of course, is my point. The real challenge is to do it in a meaningful manner, which is why anyone smart enough to understand that is remaining silent.

Blogger Ciaran April 26, 2014 4:43 PM  

@ MrGreenMan

I wanted the Celts to win at something.

You and me both. We do have what many consider to be the best unreadable novel ever. But after that, not so much.

Anonymous Alexander April 26, 2014 4:44 PM  

Oh I like this game.

For my turn, I am going to start be redefining 'half savage'. You can quibble if you like, and it doesn't match most dictionaries, but most people (I've got the Muslims, Asians, and a still-healthy contingent of Westerners on my side) agree with me...

Anonymous FaustsBargainSale April 26, 2014 4:44 PM  

I don't know why everyone is having so much trouble with this.

1. Racism is bad.
2. Hitler was a racist.
3. Vox is worse than Hitler, per Fangfan's post above.
4. Per 3, whatever bad qualities Vox has, he must have in worse measure than Hitler.
5. Per 1, racism is a bad quality, and Per 2 Hitler was a racist.
6. Ergo, Vox is a worse racist than Hitler.
7. Per 6, Vox is a racist.

Done.

Anonymous Speaker-To-SFWAs April 26, 2014 4:45 PM  


Dude, really? You drop the Hitler card less then 100 comments in?

Fucking amateurs...


I'm just waiting for one of them to offer up a Teary Personal Anecdote, or to mewl the lapine "whitesplaining."

Anonymous Stg58/Animal Mother April 26, 2014 4:48 PM  

Contaminated NEET:

MEDICINE AND GENETIC SCIENCE RACISSSSS!!!!

Anonymous haysoos April 26, 2014 4:48 PM  

" willing to honestly answer any questions you might have, without evasion"

What's the basis for your claim to being hispanic?

Anonymous Porphyry April 26, 2014 4:48 PM  

@Neet The word does not mean that just quite yet. In modern conversation it means someone who believes their race is morally superior to another race hence the prefix and the suffix. Yet in modern conversation people are so afraid of moral judgement that they generally assume anyone, with the position you mentioned in your first definition, is racist. However, most likely in 20 years your post will be accurate.

Blogger Nate April 26, 2014 4:49 PM  

"What's the basis for your claim to being hispanic?"

...

genetics?

Anonymous Laz April 26, 2014 4:50 PM  

VD: "Americans have NO IDEA how uncivilized they are."

True, most Americans don't but, those of us who live near their settlements know exactly how uncivilized they are.

Anonymous Contaminated NEET April 26, 2014 4:50 PM  

"You could simply redefine 'racism' as 'breathing oxygen'."

Well, almost. There are plenty of people who will proudly and loudly proclaim that they believe there are no differences at all between the races other than appearance. Plenty. Of course, the avant garde of Progressivism now condemn those very people as racists for denying their sinfulness and hiding behind the myth of color-blindness.

Anonymous haysoos April 26, 2014 4:51 PM  

.."What's the basis for your claim to being hispanic?"

...

genetics?

We'll need to be a bit more specific to meet the "without evasion" requirement.

Anonymous Speaker-To-SFWAs April 26, 2014 4:52 PM  

What's the basis for your claim to being hispanic?

On considerably more certain ground than Elizabeth Warren's for claiming to be Cherokee, doubtless.

Anonymous Stg58/Animal Mother April 26, 2014 4:52 PM  

Genetics and genealogy I presume.

Anonymous YIH April 26, 2014 4:53 PM  

tz:
I don't know where you live (nor does it matter), but in ''The South Side of Chicago'' a Subway is literally ''battle hardened''. Why? Because most Africans IN America make it that way.
I could be wrong, but I doubt there is a 'Subway' in Italy that is as ''battle hardened'' as this one.

Anonymous Stg58/Animal Mother April 26, 2014 4:54 PM  

C NEET,

Are you referring to the marxist concept of "False Consciousness?

Anonymous Hound's Tooth Check April 26, 2014 4:55 PM  

"You threatened violence against a black woman"

Not that I've seen in any of the quoted material.

If Jymysyn (or whatever the fuck her name is) believed he was "threatening violence" did she file a police report? Precinct? Case number?

She didn't, because she didn't believe he was "threatening violence" at all. She just wanted something to screech about.

As do you.

You know, I'm new around here. I find some of Vox's views...problematic...but not nearly as much as those of his opponents. He's just some guy with a blog who appears to enjoy baiting the pompous, or "taunting the tauntable", one might say.

So far, he's mopping the floor with you guys.

"Worse than Hitler". Heh. You're a real card, FangFan.

Anonymous T April 26, 2014 4:57 PM  

Check Vox for high cheekbones.

Also, you forgot:
Hitler's writing was terrible.
Vox is worse than Hitler.

Therefore: Why the Hell is Vox nominated? I'm not going to read this; would you make me read Mein Kampf?

Guilt by association is one of their favorite tactics, but in many ways, it just might be a fundamental way in the way their minds think. Pattern recognition with a loose accuracy setting.

Anonymous The other skeptic April 26, 2014 4:59 PM  

First, I define a "racist" as a person who believes there are differences between the races other than mere skin color and appearance.

Oh, shit. All those IQ tests be racissss! And those genetic tests.

Blogger Ciaran April 26, 2014 4:59 PM  

@ Porphyry

The word does not mean that just quite yet.

I disagree, and agree with Neet. In the hegemonic libprog view, any racial comparison which can be construed as detrimental to any race (other than whites) is considered racist. The comparison is certainly not limited to moral superiority - an assertion of any sort of superiority will invoke the accusation of racism.

I'm not sure what VD's goal in this post is. Does he intend to assert a reasonable definition of racism? If so, good luck with that. Reasonableness rarely has much to do with anyone being called a racist. It's a tool of political and social abuse.

Anonymous MrGreenMan April 26, 2014 5:00 PM  

@YIH

10 years ago I went to similarly bullet-proof KFCs, Church's Chickens, and White Castles within five blocks of Wayne State (Woodward & Warren) in Detroit. It's even got the airlock.

Anonymous Porphyry April 26, 2014 5:01 PM  

@Vox With regards to @neet, while racist today is still an accusation or in other words an emotion one has about someone else, it is possible to make the transition to a label, with morally neutral connotations, i.e. a belief one has about the facts of the matter, which is what neet was hinting at in the first definition. E.g. In modern speak all racists2 are bad no matter what, but in future speak, although the culture will condemn racism1 as foolishness, racism1 will indeed be wisdom.

Anonymous Speaker-To-SFWAs April 26, 2014 5:02 PM  

She just wanted something to screech about.

As do you.


Any day without being able to tearfully claim outraged victimhood is, de facto, a day they cannot blame their own numerous personal failures and shortcomings upon anyone but themselves... and that is simply intolerable.

Anonymous El Duderino April 26, 2014 5:02 PM  

It's even got the airlock.

Forgive my ignorance, but why?

Anonymous The other skeptic April 26, 2014 5:03 PM  

100m sprint? Yup, that's raciss.

Marathon? Yup, that's raciss.

Landing an F14 on a carrier? That's sexisss and might be racisss.

Blogger Nate April 26, 2014 5:03 PM  

"We'll need to be a bit more specific to meet the "without evasion" requirement."

More specific than posting a picture of his obviously hispanic grandfather?

Anonymous The other skeptic April 26, 2014 5:04 PM  

More specific than posting a picture of his obviously hispanic grandfather?

I guess we don't need to ask for the real birth certificates, because if its good enough for the President, ...

Anonymous MrGreenMan April 26, 2014 5:05 PM  

@El Duderino

It's like the bank in areas where they know they'll be robbed - they still have to get the food to you, but they do it by being able to enforce either you have your food door open or they have their food door open. In this way, the employees are literally sealed in a fortified bunker.

I remember in the early 1980s seeing that at the bank. It's amazing how low the stakes are when they have to protect the $5 foot longs and the cash register at a low-volume/high-cost service facility. (They're always lower sales than the suburban ones because it is such a PITA to shop there.)

Anonymous haysoos April 26, 2014 5:11 PM  

"We'll need to be a bit more specific to meet the "without evasion" requirement."

More specific than posting a picture of his obviously hispanic grandfather?

Yes, he's obviously hispanic -- or maybe Italian, or Greek, or Serbian, or ...

Anonymous T April 26, 2014 5:13 PM  

There's a difference between thinking "My race is superior in all respects" and simply recognizing that no two things are exactly alike. One is a self centered solipsistic, narcissist viewpoint, one is realist. Cultures cause trends in the people within them, this is obvious. Even so, as I believe Vox intimated earlier, an individual can always prove himself on his own individual merits.

Anonymous Porphyry April 26, 2014 5:13 PM  

@ciaran "The comparison is certainly not limited to moral superiority - an assertion of any sort of superiority will invoke the accusation of racism." The liberal/prog circles are so befuddled that it is probably not wise to use them as examples of word use. That being said, the fact that they treat racism as a moral disagreement, rather than as a descriptor of particular belief makes me think that they are still in the stages of using racist as an accusation primarily and proclaiming that acknowledging the differences between races is scientific evidence that one is a member of "accused group".

Anonymous MrGreenMan April 26, 2014 5:14 PM  

@haysoos

The picture is documentary evidence supporting the following assertion:

http://voxday.blogspot.com/search?q=Mexican+grandfather

And forget science fiction, the self-appointed experts on Stormfront and its associates have even gotten into the business of determining who is, and who is not, Hispanic. Despite my great-grandfather being a Mexican revolutionary and close associate of Pancho Villa's, and despite my great-uncle being a well-known Hispanic painter, due to my failure to be publicly "Latino-identified" and my "discriminatory statements against Latinos", Ms Cuin informed me that she "was afraid that you wouldn't fall under that category" and therefore could not be included on a list of Hispanic SF writers.

They even said he had to publicly self-identify, and he did.

Anonymous The other skeptic April 26, 2014 5:15 PM  

"When you think about who I am as a black guy in the U.S., I didn't have opportunities," he says. "You get discriminated against over there in the South. Here everyone is so nice. They invite you into their homes, they're so hospitable. ... There's no crime, no guns. I can't help but love this place."

From More renounce US citizenship but deny the stereotype

It burns.

Anonymous Speaker-To-SFWAs April 26, 2014 5:17 PM  

What's the basis for your claim to being hispanic?

On what objective, demonstrable grounds do you reject it? If you are attempting to advance an extraordinary claim ("Vox is lying about his ancestry"), then the burden of supplying extraordinary evidence in support of same falls upon you.

Anonymous Salt April 26, 2014 5:19 PM  

The whole leftist appraoch, the attack, is pure Alinsky. Racist, homophobe, mysoginist, name it.

one's concern with the ethics of means and ends varies inversely with one's personal interest in the issue.


Blogger Outlaw X April 26, 2014 5:21 PM  

Am I a Racist??

Yep, better get used to it. Not even Merlin can save you now. Pretending you are not is a sure fire example (dead giveaway) you are, apologizing is an admittance. So any way you are a racist.

you know what a racist does every morning? He looks in the mirror and sees he is so to deflect it he calls other people racist. So if you are called one you probably are not one, but you plead guilty either way.

Anonymous Porphyry April 26, 2014 5:22 PM  

@Ciaran By moral disagreement, I mean they seek to purge you. Of course, that gets into the question of whether leftists purge for intellectual disagreements as well. Which of course they do, but they seem to hold a special place in their heart for racism.

Anonymous T April 26, 2014 5:22 PM  

I live in the South and work next to black people every day. Hmong, asian, you name it. We all get along. No discrimination.

Low crime, too.

The discrimination is mostly found in Democrat controlled urban areas, and the suburbs. The former predominantly black and racist against whites, and the latter predominately white and scared of the blacks.

Reality is far more complex than a cherry picked yahoo opinion puff article.

Anonymous MrGreenMan April 26, 2014 5:25 PM  

@T

Before long, you're going to say that the El Dorado of the North, Detroit mid-1940s, with those factory jobs, was the pinnacle of Northern love for the concept, hatred for the individual, with the most segregated neighborhoods, churches, and civic organizations. And then they're going to characterize your rubbing shoulders with diverse people as you asserting you have a black friend. And then they'll call you raciss.

Anonymous haysoos April 26, 2014 5:25 PM  

@ MrGreenMan

Thanks, that answers the question.

@ Speaker-To-SFWAs

You are an idiot. But since Green already answered my question. I'll leave it up to you to figure out why.

Anonymous Anonymous April 26, 2014 5:27 PM  

I just realized, watching this thread: arguing with a leftist is like playing pick-up basketball against a guy with no arms. You can't beat him because he can't check the ball into play.

Anonymous MrGreenMan April 26, 2014 5:28 PM  

@haysoos

No problem. I come here for the music and the show - since one of Han or Greedo is going to get shot - I like to move the plot along when I can help.

Anonymous Speaker-To-SFWAs April 26, 2014 5:28 PM  

On what objective, demonstrable grounds do you reject it? If you are attempting to advance an extraordinary claim ("Vox is lying about his ancestry"), then the burden of supplying extraordinary evidence in support of same falls upon you.

You are an idiot.

So... nothing whatsoever, then, other than your pouty say-so? [::nods::] Gotcha.

Anonymous YIH April 26, 2014 5:36 PM  

FangFan:
You virtually called a black woman a "nigger".
OK, I'll virtually call you ''John Scalzi'', does that make it true?

Anonymous VD April 26, 2014 5:38 PM  

What's the basis for your claim to being hispanic?

My two Hispanic grandparents. If I ever posted a picture of the three of us, there would be no doubts whatsoever. Even a picture of me with my brothers is sufficient to prove my point. As I mentioned, my great-uncle is a Hispanic painter of some note.

Blogger Nate April 26, 2014 5:40 PM  

this raises an interesting point... how does one "virtually" call someone a nigger?

Anonymous Anonymous April 26, 2014 5:43 PM  

I find the lack of self-awareness among liberal/left European-Americans to be simply astounding. Here we are, in the United States of 2014, where:

1) African-Americans are openly organized politically on the basis of race (NAACP, Congressional Black Caucus);

2) Latino-Americans are openly organized politically on the basis of race (National Council of La Raza [The Race], Congressional Hispanic Caucus);

3) Asian-Americans are openly organized politically on the basis of race (National Asian American Coalition, Congressional Asian Pacific American Caucus);

4) the above races vote as a bloc, of varying percentages of between 60-90%, but still overwhelming by historical standards;

5) the above races, and their political groups, define their political identities in opposition to that of European-Americans;

6) the above races, and their political groups, view criminal events, up to and including murder, differently solely on the basis of the race of the criminal and/or the victim; but

7) Despite all of this, they hold that any public statement or writing which notes any of the above is evidence of evil.

Not only is it wrong to demand that human beings ignore the quite clear evidence right before their eyes, they don't seem to realize how forcing people to do so on a massive scale can do nothing, given enough time, but completely discredit their ideology and beliefs.

Anonymous Speaker-To-SFWAs April 26, 2014 5:43 PM  

this raises an interesting point... how does one "virtually" call someone a nigger?

By means of a computer-generated simulation of three-dimensional reality, using a special helmet and gloves.

Anonymous Rolf April 26, 2014 5:44 PM  

But you are demanding formal logic and recognition of implicit assumptions, and that's anti-feeling and that's racist because it's demanding white-man's privilege of proper forms that are TOTALLY white-man culturally, and... wait, the Greeks developed formal logic? Well, they are white enough from here where I see them from near as I can tell, but the other players that have been oppressed and... wait, what? Now you are claiming to be non-white? Uh, but, but, you LOOK white, and you're racist, so you MUST be white, but you can't even be authentically white, so you're an Uncle Tom... Oh, Hispanic, well, then, ummm... You don't LOOK Mexican, so you must be a racist like Zimmerman, just waiting to gun down any black teen you can find an excuse for...

/end channeling rabid anti-Voxite

Sorry, couldn't help myself, there.

Anonymous Don April 26, 2014 5:47 PM  

Nate - Well Fang still hasn't said how Vox threatened Jemisin so I doubt he'll answer that question either. I guess you could deliberately misspell it? Not sure you either call somebody a name or you do not. Knew a black guy who believed that calling somebody 'Nigerian' was the same as nigger, I shit you not. He didn't even buy that it was a country, 'just something made up to keep black people down'.

Anonymous The other skeptic April 26, 2014 5:48 PM  

As I mentioned, my great-uncle is a Hispanic painter of some note.

I'm going with Pablo Picasso.

Anonymous MrGreenMan April 26, 2014 5:50 PM  

@Don

Don't even go near that word for miserly/stingy or describe a budget hole with terms reserved for heavenly bodies that take stuff in but don't let anything out..

Anonymous Mr. Nightstick April 26, 2014 5:52 PM  

Do you believe that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races?

Anonymous Salt April 26, 2014 5:53 PM  

I'm going with Pablo Picasso

Diego Rivera has my bet.

Anonymous Mr. Nightstick April 26, 2014 5:53 PM  

Or do you believe that a particular race is superior to another?

Anonymous jack April 26, 2014 5:58 PM  

@VD my great-uncle is a Hispanic painter of some note.

No....
It can't be can it? Pablo Picasso? Rodin? Naw, no way. [is it?]

Anonymous Grinder April 26, 2014 6:00 PM  

VD April 26, 2014 4:29 PM
Yeah, but you are a lot worse...

Dongleroy, I am not a racist. I stand by that statement. You, however, are a self-described racist, which ironically enough is one of the things NK Jemisin wrongly accused me of being. You should probably stop now before you admit to being sexist and homophobic as well.


I cannot prove that you are a racist without more information. You assert that you are not a racist. Why do you claim this? What is your definition of racism by which you contend you are not a racist?

Anonymous Speaker-To-SFWAs April 26, 2014 6:01 PM  

Now you are claiming to be non-white? Uh, but, but, you LOOK white

Their "logic" here, as in virtually every other instance, is no better than skin-deep.

Anonymous The other skeptic April 26, 2014 6:02 PM  

What is your definition of racism by which you contend you are not a racist?

The term has no meaning. It is used by people who want to hang a label around someone's neck and to make them feel bad for themselves.

Anonymous Feelings, Nothing More Than Feelings April 26, 2014 6:02 PM  

Mr. Nightstick
Or do you believe that a particular race is superior to another?

I believe that the marathon is superior to the 50 meter dash.

Anonymous Speaker-To-SFWAs April 26, 2014 6:05 PM  

What is your definition of racism by which you contend you are not a racist?

You have it precisely backwards. It is the argument that another IS "racist" which demands supporting evidence.

Anonymous Feelings, Nothing More Than Feelings April 26, 2014 6:05 PM  

Grinder
I cannot prove that you are a racist without more information.

Then why are you wasting your time posting here?

You assert that you are not a racist. Why do you claim this?

Because he's been falsely accused of being a racist, obviously. If you aren't going to bother to actually read the original posting, why are you wasting your time posting here?

What is your definition of racism by which you contend you are not a racist?

What is your definition of racism, Grinder?

Anonymous Grinder April 26, 2014 6:07 PM  

As it stands you might have a case for defamation against someone who calls you a racist but I am comfortable saying that I believe that you are a racist - and I am totally ok with that.

Anonymous MrGreenMan April 26, 2014 6:08 PM  

@Jack

Let's choose a more hilarious likely suspect: Diego Rivera

Anonymous Alexander April 26, 2014 6:09 PM  

Please let it be Diego Rivera. Then Vox can play the Jewish-ancestors-discriminated-against-by-Catholics card.

If that's where this ride is going, I don't wanna get off.

Anonymous VD April 26, 2014 6:10 PM  

Why do you claim this? What is your definition of racism by which you contend you are not a racist?

Oxford English dictionary: A person who believes that a particular race is superior to another:

World English dictionary: 1. the belief that races have distinctive cultural characteristics determined by hereditary factors and that this endows some races with an intrinsic superiority over others. 2. abusive or aggressive behaviour towards members of another race on the basis of such a belief

Anonymous Harsh April 26, 2014 6:10 PM  

I'm greek. You're all barbarians a few generations removed from painting your asses blue and eating each other to me.

Or just a few hours removed for some of us.

Anonymous Grinder April 26, 2014 6:13 PM  

I agree with the first offered definition of racism - a belief that racial differences determine (I will add '...or strongly influence...') achievements (and other things like behaviour).

Anonymous Don April 26, 2014 6:15 PM  

Grinder said
"As it stands you might have a case for defamation against someone who calls you a racist but I am comfortable saying that I believe that you are a racist - and I am totally ok with that.


So you admit that you are comfortable with lying about someone and defaming them. You admit that you are 'totally ok' with committing a crime against someone you don't like. You should really look at what you are writing before you hit 'publish'.

Grinder, why do you hate Latinos so much? Or are other ethnic groups on your list of those you are 'totally ok' with defaming?

Anonymous FaustsBargainSale April 26, 2014 6:16 PM  

”I cannot prove that you are a racist without more information. ”

So it's just a thing you're saying because you don't like him.
Noted.

Anonymous YIH April 26, 2014 6:18 PM  

MrGreenMan:
I used to live in Kissimmee FL. What convinced me to leave was going through the 'drive-thru' of the KFC there and I saw a revolving 'portal' for food/money just like that Subway in Chicago.
If businesses have to be ''battle hardened'' against their customers are we still in a so-called ''first-world'' country?

Anonymous Speaker-To-SFWAs April 26, 2014 6:20 PM  

I cannot prove that you are a racist without more information [...] but I am comfortable saying that I believe that you are a racist - and I am totally ok with that.

Self-awareness definitely isn't your strong suit, is it?

Anonymous MrGreenMan April 26, 2014 6:21 PM  

By which I am tickled:

The IQ thing comes up so often, because there is a group that Vox has always called the midwits - the +0.5 to +1.0 SD crowd - that always fall into three traps: (1) They assume, because they're smarter than average, that somebody they don't understand is automatically dumber than them, and (2) they assume, because they're smarter than average, and proud of this, that everybody views IQ as the appropriate metric for human worth, and (3) they feel like they've underperformed in life because of #1 and #2, and therefore are embittered by it.

I'm certain I've read on more than one occasion, especially when playing "What metric would Jesus use?", an article here where VD has said that IQ is not his metric. That "I don't expect you to agree, because I don't expect you to understand" is not a boast, but a very literal statement of how, when there's more than two standard deviation units between two people, they are effectively incapable of communication without extreme strain and difficulty, and a forbearance that would quickly exhaust anyone blogging at even a tenth of the rate.

Therefore, I'm tickled by the projection that it is because he has said something that would seem bad against what they value, whether that's IQ or civilization building, they assume it's a hate-based remark, but, given that Vox says it just as much as a warning - he's really smart, you won't understand - it is not an expression of superiority since he doesn't value personal worth in the same manner in which those who charge racism do. They really do think saying somebody is smarter is saying somebody is worth more or superior.

A side trip through Christianity - if one knows accepts the statement that there'll be converts from every tribe and nation before the Throne among the redeemed - one cannot possibly have IQ as the measure of superiority. Just as CS Lewis said that the goal for the Christian is to be able to say, "I am a better writer than him" or "he is a better writer than me" (I forget the exact profession), both separated from the sin of envy, perhaps Vox is simply practicing the de-personalized statement - and people who have so roundly rejected the Christian world-view - where in our Savior himself said some rather pointed and harsh things about Samaritans to the Samaritan woman's face, and yet she accepted these as facts - these people cannot understand or accept that statements said from a different world view don't express the same origin of hate or loathing, because, quite frankly, they are alien views, poles apart.

Anonymous Grinder April 26, 2014 6:30 PM  

World English dictionary: 1. the belief that races have distinctive cultural characteristics determined by hereditary factors and that this endows some races with an intrinsic superiority over others. 2. abusive or aggressive behaviour towards members of another race on the basis of such a belief

By this definition I could freely say that negroes are predisposed to laziness and violent crime and prone to sickle cell anemia. Who is to say that such traits are a sign of superiority or lack thereof? I get it. You are not a racist. If you could count on a wise judge presiding over your case, you could launch a lawsuit and demonstrate harm you have endured due to libelous remarks.
Throw your anklebiters a bone and tell them they would need to determine how any observations you have written about indicates superiority of one race over another rather than just different and that if they found a way to do so to also show that you in fact believed what you wrote.

Anonymous VD April 26, 2014 6:37 PM  

By this definition I could freely say that negroes are predisposed to laziness and violent crime and prone to sickle cell anemia. Who is to say that such traits are a sign of superiority or lack thereof? I get it. You are not a racist.

This is true. And, interestingly enough, it also happens to be THE DICTIONARY DEFINITION. It's not cherry-picked. It's not something I invented. It's not a manufactured means of hiding my true feelings. It's the literal definition of a concept so trivial that it wasn't even defined until the 20th century.

Anonymous Anonymous April 26, 2014 6:40 PM  

Hispanic painter

I think nowadays we're supposed to call them "graffiti artists."

Anonymous Grinder April 26, 2014 6:44 PM  

Don April 26, 2014 6:15 PM
So you admit that you are comfortable with lying about someone and defaming them. You admit that you are 'totally ok' with committing a crime against someone you don't like. You should really look at what you are writing before you hit 'publish'.

Grinder, why do you hate Latinos so much? Or are other ethnic groups on your list of those you are 'totally ok' with defaming?


Wow, the voxbots have upped their response times. Anyway, yes I am comfortable with lying and defaming people and committing crimes against people I don't like under certain circumstances like if I feel I have a good reason that no one else but me will agree is a good reason. In this thread I have made no comments that are lies or defamatory. I have merely opined that I believe VD is racist, not claimed that he is. Defamation is when a remark is not true. My remark is true - that I believe VD is racist.

I have nothing against Hispanics or Asians as long as they remain in their own countries and harbour no intentions of polluting our white countries with their presence.

Anonymous The other skeptic April 26, 2014 6:50 PM  

and prone to sickle cell anemia. Who is to say that such traits are a sign of superiority or lack thereof?

If your environment is blessed with mosquitoes and Plasmodium falciparum then you are likely superior because you are resistant to malaria.

Anonymous Anonymous April 26, 2014 6:51 PM  

I'd like to enter the ring here. If civilizations and races are intrinsically different, then unless their discrepancies somehow cancel each other out perfectly, then some races must be superior to other races on some objective level. I don't think that the discrepancies perfectly cancel out, and so, by the definitions given in the above comments, I am racist. So now what? Do I go wallow in shame and hate myself? I think not.

The point is, if you hold that races are intrinsically different, but not equal (on some objective level), then you are a racist. But instead of denying it, just accept the label. When accused of racism, it gives power to the accuser when you deny the charge. If you flatly admit that you are guilty of the capital offense of racism, then the wind has been taken out of their sails.

Obviously if you hold that races are different but equal then the above does not apply.

Anonymous VD April 26, 2014 6:52 PM  

"I am comfortable with lying.... My remark is true."

(laughs) All righty, then.

Anonymous YIH April 26, 2014 6:54 PM  

El Duderino:
Forgive my ignorance, but why?
To protect the employees from the wild animal African IN America customers.
They are (as employers) required to protect their employees from attacks from turd worlders because the employees are forbidden to defend themselves in any possible way.
Therefore, in order to get employees they have to be protected.

Anonymous kh123 April 26, 2014 6:55 PM  

" and people who have so roundly rejected the Christian world-view - where in our Savior himself said some rather pointed and harsh things about Samaritans to the Samaritan woman's face, and yet she accepted these as facts - these people cannot understand or accept that statements said from a different world view don't express the same origin of hate or loathing,"

Exactly.

"Salvation is of the Jews; why should I take from the table and give to the dogs?"

"But even the dogs will eat the crumbs."

And that was enough for him. She apparently recognized his estimation of her people in relation to salvation, and accepted it, without crying raciss' or apparently even being offended over the metaphor.

And then Jesus turned around and cited an example of decency and humanity that had very little to do with the people he was sent to preach to initially - in fact it was as heavy, if not heavier, condemnation of Jews than calling an entire people dogs. We still speak of good Samaritans.

Anonymous Don April 26, 2014 6:56 PM  

Grinder - Wow you really should self censor more. You are a racist who calls Asians and Latinos pollution. You admit you will break the law if you feel like it. You said Vox had a case for defamation then proceed to defame him. Read what you type before hitting publish. Or edit it better. Just because you feel that Vox is a racist counter the dictionary definition otherwise, does not make him a racist. Your feelings about the law, language, and race are as meaningless as your posts here. You are allowing bigotry and hate to cloud your judgement or supercede it entirely. Good luck with life and try not to be frightened of the dusky hordes. It's the savages you need to look out for. The ones who commit crimes when they feel like it and ignore theplain meaning of the English language. You do great duckspeak though, I'll give you that.

Anonymous Feelings, Nothing More Than Feelings April 26, 2014 6:57 PM  

Truth or Consequences, didn't your name used to be Hot Springs?

Anonymous Speaker-To-SFWAs April 26, 2014 7:05 PM  

I am comfortable with lying

No one here is contesting that.

Blogger Nate April 26, 2014 7:06 PM  

"(laughs) All righty, then."

It is true. He's saying he believes you're a racist. He's not saying that you ARE a racist.

Its like saying I believe cheese is yummy. I'm not saying it is in fact yummy. Only that my perception of it is yummy.

its equivocation... but accurate equivocation.

Blogger Nate April 26, 2014 7:06 PM  

Don... are you new here?

Anonymous zen0 April 26, 2014 7:15 PM  

Not that anyone will care, but I read some interesting takes on the human race being categorized according to the sons of Noah: Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

If it was a database file, race would be a sub grouping within the larger categories, but some races would predominate within a higher category.

Anonymous Andy April 26, 2014 7:15 PM  

Well, THAT escalated quickly. I understand why Vox made this thread, but I can't stand the whole discussion about racism, whoever is talking about it. Anyone who went to high school in the 2000's knows what I'm talking about. Talking about Racism is America's new religion.

Blogger kilo papa April 26, 2014 7:15 PM  

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/new-saints/pope-john-paul-ii-crucifix-falls-crushes-man-death-n89546

Anonymous daphnis April 26, 2014 7:18 PM  

The sons of Noah thing is complete and utter shit.

Anonymous aviendha April 26, 2014 7:18 PM  

Vox it's not nice to give stupid people a platform to demonstrate their stupidity.They might actually become aware of their limitations and hate you more for it. It is so much easier to call people names than engage in an argument in good faith as embarrassingly demonstrated by your accusers.

Anonymous Don April 26, 2014 7:21 PM  

Nate - Nope, I just wish for a better quality of sparring partner. This is like hitting a tether ball.

Blogger Nate April 26, 2014 7:23 PM  

Don... Grinder is open about his racism and always has been. You haven't "caught him out". What you're seeing is Grinder's surprise that Vox is disagreeing with him on race.

Anonymous Feelings, Nothing More Than Feelings April 26, 2014 7:23 PM  

Well, THAT escalated quickly.

No, not really. I made a fresh pot of coffee and still have plenty left.
Was hoping for more and better rantings than actually have been provided.

Blogger Nate April 26, 2014 7:25 PM  

" Anyone who went to high school in the 2000's knows what I'm talking about."

Son... most of us are older than your parents.

Anonymous Don April 26, 2014 7:26 PM  

Nate - Thanks I thought I was playing with a prog. Looks like I have the other kind.

Anonymous Speaker-To-SFWAs April 26, 2014 7:26 PM  

186 responses so far, and not even ONE huffily indignant "CHECK YOUR PRIVILEGE!" yet?

We need better trolls.

Anonymous YIH April 26, 2014 7:27 PM  

Here we go again, do Africans get Cystic Fibrosis? Do White Gentiles get Tay-Sachs disease? Do White Gentiles and Evil Overlords get Sickle-cell? NO.
''But we're all the same!''. If that is true, @scalzi should prove it by moving to downtown Cincinnati.

Anonymous Shibes Meadow April 26, 2014 7:30 PM  

Apropos of this discussion, the greatest blog post ever written: I SAW WHUT U DID THAR STEVE SAILER

Anonymous Anonymous April 26, 2014 7:30 PM  

Feelings- not sure what you're getting at. I have lurked at this blog for a while, but haven't commented until now.

Anonymous Andy April 26, 2014 7:33 PM  

O I understand your older, you don't understand how ridiculous it's gotten. Actually You probably do, but many don't.

Anonymous Anonymous April 26, 2014 7:35 PM  

hmm...I don't know why my blog URL showed up instead of just 'Truth or Consequences'. My amateurism is shining through.

Anonymous scoobius dubious April 26, 2014 7:38 PM  

Yoiks, what a train wreck this is.

Anonymous Der Spellmeister April 26, 2014 7:49 PM  

Andy wrote O I understand your older,

You understand my older…what?

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