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Tuesday, April 29, 2014

Faith and trust and pixie dust

David Brooks asks a grand strategic expert to help him make sense of his impression that the international system is collapsing:
All around, the fabric of peace and order is fraying. The leaders of Russia and Ukraine escalate their apocalyptic rhetoric. The Sunni-Shiite split worsens as Syria and Iraq slide into chaos. China pushes its weight around in the Pacific. I help teach a grand strategy course at Yale, and I asked my colleagues to make sense of what’s going on. Charles Hill, who was a legendary State Department officer before going to Yale, wrote back:

“The ‘category error’ of our experts is to tell us that our system is doing just fine and proceeding on its eternal course toward ever-greater progress and global goodness. This is whistling past the graveyard.

“The lesson-category within grand strategic history is that when an established international system enters its phase of deterioration, many leaders nonetheless respond with insouciance, obliviousness, and self-congratulation. When the wolves of the world sense this, they, of course, will begin to make their moves to probe the ambiguities of the aging system and pick off choice pieces to devour at their leisure.

“This is what Putin is doing; this is what China has been moving toward doing in the maritime waters of Asia; this is what in the largest sense the upheavals of the Middle East are all about: i.e., who and what politico-ideological force will emerge as hegemon over the region in the new order to come. The old order, once known as ‘the American Century’ has been situated within ‘the modern era,’ an era which appears to be stalling out after some 300-plus years. The replacement era will not be modern and will not be a nice one.”
This is correct. Notice in particular the phrase "when an established international system enters its phase of deterioration". Emphasis on "its phase" rather than "a phase". The phase is terminal. It is not part of a gentle cycle. And it usually ends in a considerable amount of war before its successor system is established.

Brooks more or less accurately describes the establishment of modern nationalist civilization, although he neglects to observe that this was a Christian civilization that imposed the modern order. The combination of religious homogeneity and technogical dominance is what made the establishment of the order both desirable and possible.
When Hill talks about the modern order he is referring to a state system that restrained the two great vices of foreign affairs: the desire for regional dominance and the desire to eliminate diversity. Throughout recorded history, large regional powers have generally gobbled up little nations. Powerful people have generally tried to impose their version of the Truth on less powerful people.

But, over these centuries, civilized leaders have banded together to restrain these vices. As far back as the Treaty of Westphalia in 1648, dominant powers tried to establish procedures and norms to secure national borders and protect diversity. Hegemons like the Nazis or the Communists tried to challenge this system, but the other powers fought back.
However, Brooks goes awry and leaves out two of the primary threats to the system when he considers the opponents of what he calls "liberal pluralism":
Today that system is under assault not by a single empire but by a hundred big and little foes. As Walter Russell Mead argues in a superb article in Foreign Affairs, geopolitics is back with a vengeance. Whether it’s Russia seizing Crimea or China asserting itself, old-fashioned power plays are back in vogue. Meanwhile, pre-modern movements and people try to eliminate ethnic and religious diversity in Egypt, Ukraine and beyond.

China, Russia and Iran have different values, but all oppose this system of liberal pluralism. The U.S. faces a death by a thousand cuts dilemma. No individual problem is worth devoting giant resources to. It’s not worth it to spend huge amounts of treasure to establish stability in Syria or defend a Western-oriented Ukraine. But, collectively, all the little problems can undermine the modern system. No individual ailment is worth the expense of treating it, but, collectively, they can kill you.
These two additional threats are globalism and multiculturalism. Both are also attempts to eliminate ethnic and religious diversity at the national level. But nations exist for a very important reason: to provide sufficient homogeneity within a political entity to prevent tribal power struggles by reducing violent conflict to mere political conflict. Attempting to spread the nations externally (globalism) while mixing them internally (multiculturalism), puts even more pressure on liberal pluralism than pre-modern movements. Indeed, it is mass immigration, which is the bastard child of globalism and multiculturalism, that has injected these poisonous pre-modern movements into Western civilization.
John Gaddis, another grand strategy professor, directs us to George Kennan’s insights from the early Cold War, which he feels are still relevant as a corrective to the death-by-a-thousand-cuts mentality. He argues that we should contain these menaces until they collapse internally. The Moscow regime requires a hostile outside world to maintain its own internal stability. That’s a weakness. By not behaving stupidly, by not overextending ourselves for example, we can, Gaddis argues, “make sure Putin’s seeds of self-destruction are more deeply rooted than our own.”

That’s smart, but I think I’m less sure that time is on our side. The weakness with any democratic foreign policy is the problem of motivation. How do you get the electorate to support the constant burden of defending the liberal system?

It was barely possible when we were facing an obviously menacing foe like the Soviet Union. But it’s harder when the system is being gouged by a hundred sub-threshold threats.
Gaddis's answer is a complete non-starter, which Brooks would have realized if he had properly taken the two additional threats I have mentioned into account. How can the West "contain these menaces until they collapse internally" when the West has taken those menaces into itself? The Moscow regime and the Muslim world may both require their Dar al-Harbs to maintain their internal stability, but at least they have an internal stability. The West has little more than termites in its foundations, clogged arteries in its heart, and parasitic cysts in its brain.
The Republicans seem to have given up global agreements that form the fabric of that system, while Democrats are slashing the defense budget that undergirds it. Moreover, people will die for Mother Russia or Allah. But it is harder to get people to die for a set of pluralistic procedures to protect faraway places. It’s been pulling teeth to get people to accept commercial pain and impose sanctions.

The liberal pluralistic system is not a spontaneous natural thing. Preserving that hard-earned ecosystem requires an ever-advancing fabric of alliances, clear lines about what behavior is unacceptably system-disrupting, and the credible threat of political, financial and hard power enforcement.
It is true that liberal pluralism is not a spontaneous natural thing. The rest is meaningless gobbledy-gook. The globalist, multiculturalist West is no longer liberal or pluralistic, so it should be no surprise that the system of liberal pluralism is on the verge of collapse and that its rivals are increasingly confident that they need neither fear nor respect it. There will be no "saving the system", not when its self-appointed defenders neither understand the extent of the problem and are more than a little sympathetic towards some of the threats posed.

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95 Comments:

Anonymous Peter Garstig April 29, 2014 5:20 AM  

One could easily derive from Brooks words that in order to protect diversity, you have to keep the diverse nations intact. Multiculturalism is nothing but the destruction of diversity.

This Hill guy seems interesting. Did he write any books?

Anonymous VD April 29, 2014 5:48 AM  

One could easily derive from Brooks words that in order to protect diversity, you have to keep the diverse nations intact. Multiculturalism is nothing but the destruction of diversity.

Exactly. That's the same obvious omission in the column that I observed.

Anonymous Luke April 29, 2014 5:56 AM  

Vaguely related: U.S. map showing how concentrated mosques are by state:

http://tinyurl.com/n7dpw2s

from this article:

http://allenbwest.com/2014/04/us-centers-islamic-activity-form-interesting-map/#comments

Spoiler: looks like yet another reason to move to the American Redoubt (ID, MT, WY, extreme eastern WA/OR) + maybe the Dakotas & UT/NB/AK.

Anonymous FrankNorman April 29, 2014 6:01 AM  

Reading the comments on the site Luke linked to....

Conservatives warn of danger. Liberals engage in moral posturing.

Blogger mmaier2112 April 29, 2014 6:07 AM  

We have a huge Islamic center just outside of Indianapolis. I'm still kind of shocked at that one.

I still do not see Islam as any sort of existential threat. If they get too obnoxious in this country, they'll be butchered in very short order.

They're pagan bastards but, best I can tell, their terror threats against us are fomented by the FBI and CIA more often then not.

Huh... kind of like how the drug lords are usually in bed with big govmint too...

Anonymous Stilicho April 29, 2014 6:08 AM  

Neither is there any saving of the system internally on a political level. Boehner's repeated attempts to surrender notwithstanding, It's the same forces at work tearing down a similar rotten structure.

Blogger Hermit April 29, 2014 6:12 AM  

Actually all the enemies of the so called "liberal pluralism" are self-inflicted.
Globalism, multiculturalism, rootlessness, sexual degeneracy, moral nihilism, islamic fundamentalism.

For the internal enemies like multiculturalism or moral nihilism this is evident and the leftism is the cause but this is also ture for the external enemies like Russia, China or Islamic fundamentalism.

The NATO was an alliance against the communist threat and was useless when the Warsaw pact dissolved, now it is a global imperial alliance that is expanding in the old russian sphere and causina the reaction of the russians. The NATO is the cause of the tension in eastern europe, Russia is the defensive country not the aggressive one.

The islamic revolution in Iran happened because the american and the british overthrew the elected prime minister and put the cruel Shia on power, the american embassy was occupied because it was the center of the coup d'etat. The USA are hated with a reason in Iran.

Bin Laden was financed by the CIA when he fought the soviets in Afghanistan, islamist parties in the middle east were financed when they opposed the communist parties in the 70's, the war in Iraq created an anarchy situation that fueled terrorism, the western-supported arab springs were no democratic at all.
Islamic fundamentalism is not spontaneous but caused by american interventionism. And no one learned the lessons if they want to help the terrorists to win the civil war in Syria.

As for China it is a growing power and their pretense of a regional sphere of influence are more than legitimate. China is much more justified in having influence in south Asia than the USA are, trying to prevent China from enterying is backyard would cause more and more tensions.

Also, our system destroyed values and caused degeneration much more thant the failed communist system. The eastern countries are much more religious and traditional thant Scandinavia or the UK. I would say that liberalism is more sovversive than communism.

Anonymous fnn April 29, 2014 6:26 AM  

The globalist, multiculturalist West is no longer liberal or pluralistic,...

Nicely symbolized just the other day by Paul Weston getting arrested for daring to quote Winston Churchill on the streets of England.

Anonymous VD April 29, 2014 6:28 AM  

I still do not see Islam as any sort of existential threat. If they get too obnoxious in this country, they'll be butchered in very short order.

By whom? You're not going to do it. You're sitting there helplessly as they colonize your city. No one is going to do anything until it is too late. As with most existential threats, they won't be seen as one until one's existence is actually in peril.

Anonymous Gara April 29, 2014 6:30 AM  

On top of that, this decade is probably going to see quite the economic stagnation.The millennial generation, for example, is probably going to have quite the rough ride. College is too expensive and how there won't be as many jobs available because people aren't retiring and higher taxes and all that stuff.

Any ideas on how does all of this affects the average immigrant guy, exactly? You and me are actually on a similar position, living in Europe without being born there. At least I live in the only European country which is economically strong (Germany) and at the same time very careful about trying to appear tolerant (because of the Nazi past and all that stuff). I don't expect a big anti pluralism movement to take place here, but who knows.

Anonymous Stilicho April 29, 2014 6:39 AM  

Prior to wwii Germany was widely viewed as the most tolerant and cosmopolitan society in Europe. Hunger doesn't just focus the mind.

Anonymous zen0 April 29, 2014 6:44 AM  

We have a huge Islamic center just outside of Indianapolis. I'm still kind of shocked at that one.

I hope you realize that no matter what your zoning bylaws state, the ground that it sits on is not part of the USA anymore. It is a part of the sovereign nation of Islam.

Anonymous Luke April 29, 2014 6:52 AM  

Gara April 29, 2014 6:30 AM

"At least I live in the only European country which is economically strong (Germany)"

For Gara: The European Union explained with one simple drawing (reasonably SFW, previously posted so all regulars will have seen this before): http://tinyurl.com/kg8o5l4

Anonymous hardscrabble farmer April 29, 2014 6:52 AM  

"The liberal pluralistic system is not a spontaneous natural thing. Preserving that hard-earned ecosystem ..."

Do these people ever not speak in contradictions?

If something is "not natural" then it is not an "ecosystem", hard earned or otherwise.

Imposing an artificial system requires arduous work. It is unrelenting and it is ceaseless lest Nature reclaim it. Think dams or levees.

What the elites of our current system have undertaken is to simultaneously dumb down its populations to the point of being unable to resist the unnatural systems they impose upon us, i.e. mass immigration/feminism/hemophilia while at the same time they seek to resist the immutable laws of nature using this same population of dolts as their managers/bureaucrats/enforcers.

This cannot be done either successfully (John Kerry comes to mind) or long term. Yes, we are in the Spenglerian terminal phase of culture, no we cannot sustain the hay fields while sowing seeds of thistle.

Diversity is only possible with separation. It is a contradiction when applied as a creed and can ONLY result in homogeneity.

And how is it possible that someone as knowledgeable as Brooks can so badly misstate the recent realignment of Crimea as a Russian "seizure"? Are these guys so far gone that they are now lying to themselves?

Anonymous Big Bill April 29, 2014 6:53 AM  

Perhaps war is a natural way of forging a new nationality from the many multicultural groups.

We destroyed German nationalism and identity in the USA by means of WW1, WW2 and the mass social oppression that flared up across the country. You should read the extremely genocidal anti-German-American editorials in papers large and small all across the USA in the 1912-1916 era and the 1938-1941 era. "Liberty Cabbage" versus sauerkraut was the least of their comments.

Being a "God American" was equated with a willingness to fight and die for the American War Machine. Ethnic groups who resisted making war were crushed and their identities expunged. Churches no longer hired German-speaking preachers. The Turnverein (German-American gymnastics club)became the "Madison [WI] Turners". A new monolithic "American" identity was forged in War.

Post WWII, there were dozens of movies celebrating the crushed diverse identities and the forging of the new American identity: think of the classic Hollywood movie platoon with a Jew, an Italian, an Irishman, a German, an immigrant, a white Christian country boy, a rich white kid, all fighting side by side and surrendering their ethnic rivalries/identities as the battled the Hun/Nazi.

This new war they are ginning up may be merely a natural phenomenon, a direct result of mass immigration and a multiculturalism that has reached its breaking point and cannot be sustained.

Sadly, the bankstas will survive, on top, firmly in the saddle, and will create their New World Banking Order as they did after WW1 and WW2. War permits extreme flexibility, distraction and openness to new ideas.

As we are distracted by the fighting and the dying, they will be spending their days and nights in NYC and Washington, unobserved, un-noted, engineering the New [Banking] World to Come.

It will take a New Bretton Woods to get them what they want, and that will require a New World War.

Anonymous Philalethes April 29, 2014 6:55 AM  

@Hermit: Yes. You got it. This "David "Brooks" is an idiot, in total denial. It's the USA that "requires a hostile outside world to maintain its own internal stability." And even that isn't working.

Anonymous Josh April 29, 2014 7:06 AM  

I'm not sure if David Brooks is a smart guy playing dumb or a dumb guy trying to sound smart. So many of his columns flirt with being interesting before falling back on whatever the Davos man party line is.

Anonymous Philalethes April 29, 2014 7:06 AM  

Are these guys so far gone that they are now lying to themselves?

Always have been. No empire lasts, yet they're constantly struggling to create yet another.

Anonymous Big Bill April 29, 2014 7:10 AM  

In the post-WW3 war movies Hollywood will pimp a Hoyt/Correia/Kratman movie platoon.

Instead of Hollywood's WW2 movie platoon of Jew/German/Greek/Pole/Italian/Black/white guy going to war with the Hun/Nazi, the post-WW3 Hollywood movie platoon will be a sodomite/transsexual/lesbian/black/Hispanic team.

Anonymous Big Bill April 29, 2014 7:11 AM  

Sorry, it should be "Good American", above.

Anonymous AlteredFate April 29, 2014 7:23 AM  

By whom? You're not going to do it. You're sitting there helplessly as they colonize your city. No one is going to do anything until it is too late. As with most existential threats, they won't be seen as one until one's existence is actually in peril.

Whites face a "I have seen the enemy and it is us" moment. It has been noted that white leftists have been gravitating right as the realization kicks in that the bed they shit is the one they're going to have to lay in. Those on the right would be wise to reject a reconciliation. They are the first and foremost existential threat, turncoats and saboteurs who only give allegiance because it is a necessary first step on the path to betrayal.

Anonymous Michael Maier April 29, 2014 7:24 AM  

VD April 29, 2014 6:28 AM I still do not see Islam as any sort of existential threat. If they get too obnoxious in this country, they'll be butchered in very short order.

By whom? You're not going to do it. You're sitting there helplessly as they colonize your city. No one is going to do anything until it is too late. As with most existential threats, they won't be seen as one until one's existence is actually in peril.


Colonizing? I suppose that's a fair term to use. But they don't have anything resembling the numbers that the Mexicans do. As things look to be progressing now, I think the USA will fracture long before Islam becomes a threat.

And if things disintegrate to that point, they'll be mopped up quickly and their pagan temples razed.

zen0 April 29, 2014 6:44 AM

I hope you realize that no matter what your zoning bylaws state, the ground that it sits on is not part of the USA anymore. It is a part of the sovereign nation of Islam.


And that House of Islam will mobilize and send troops to protect their "embassy" if the country goes to hell, right?

I don't think so. They can have their delusions all they want. I don't see Iberia occupied these days, no matter the Islamic delusions.

Blogger Laramie Hirsch April 29, 2014 7:30 AM  

I wish there was some sort of a rating system on this blog.

Thumbs up on this one, Vox.

Anonymous Philalethes April 29, 2014 7:48 AM  

If you project all your strength to the periphery, your center becomes hollow and collapses. Putin is a martial artist; he understands this. I just realized, I think this is his "secret". He is concentrating on building up his country's core strength, not—Western hysteria notwithstanding—trying to recreate some phantom empire. No Western "leader" has a clue.

Anonymous Josh April 29, 2014 7:58 AM  

The American conservative's Daniel Larison on this column:

" Brooks says that “it is harder to get people to die for a set of pluralistic procedures to protect faraway places,” and he seems to think that this is a bad thing. What sane person would be willing to die for a “set of pluralistic procedures”? Who really wants other people to be willing to die for this? It would be more accurate to say that it is harder to convince people here at home to support the killing of people in faraway places on the assumption that this has something to do with pluralism and international law, not least because such claims are frequently false and misleading. It should be difficult to persuade people to support unnecessary wars in countries that they are not obliged to defend. This is not a failure of the international system, such as it is, but proof that it is not yet defunct. The fact that it has been difficult “to get people to accept commercial pain and impose sanctions” is in many respects welcome news, because it tells us that there are large constituencies in many Western nations that have no interest in dead-end policies of confrontation and isolation. That isn’t a threat to international order, but it is dangerous for a particularly destructive approach to foreign policy."

Anonymous Jake April 29, 2014 8:00 AM  

@ mmaier2112: You obviously live in a bubble. I used to live around muslims and they are the worst neighbours. They like rape, theft and trying to start fights with non muslims. They are also filthy and will shit in public.

Blogger sykes.1 April 29, 2014 8:06 AM  

As to Russia collapsing anytime soon, they will soon have military bases in Cuba, Nicaragua and Venezuela. These could be used to base warships and aircraft capable of interdicting a substantial amount of the world's trade, especially all those oil tankers crawling up the African coast to Europe.

Also, China and Russia have agreed to help build a shipping canal across Nicaragua that would be competitive with the Panama Canal.

A dying country indeed.

Blogger tz April 29, 2014 8:08 AM  

The Abortion Clinics are a more serious existential threat. Death camps in our midst for a generation. When they came for the unborn... Yes, a million murderers a year - for convenience.

And when your life is inconvenient?

Christianity is the only effective opposition to Islam, but if it had any strength, Abortion would have ended long ago.

Blogger tz April 29, 2014 8:13 AM  

Put differently, Maybe God is sending the Muslims here to eliminate the Abominations (Desolation is a side.effect, let the reader take note) since the Christians aren't doing their job.

Anonymous Jake April 29, 2014 8:14 AM  

The quote about Islam from Churchill that Paul Weston was arrested for in the UK:

'Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.


'Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the faith: all know how to die but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it.


'No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith.'

Anonymous FrankNorman April 29, 2014 8:18 AM  


Big Bill April 29, 2014 6:53 AM

Sadly, the bankstas will survive, on top, firmly in the saddle, and will create their New World Banking Order as they did after WW1 and WW2. War permits extreme flexibility, distraction and openness to new ideas.

As we are distracted by the fighting and the dying, they will be spending their days and nights in NYC and Washington, unobserved, un-noted, engineering the New [Banking] World to Come.


Sure, until a Russian ICBM lets off 20 megatons of BOOOM! right over their heads...

Anonymous Facepalm April 29, 2014 8:19 AM  

"mmaier2112: I still do not see Islam as any sort of existential threat. If they get too obnoxious in this country, they'll be butchered in very short order."

Nate is that you KJing again?

Blogger IM2L844 April 29, 2014 8:27 AM  

Obama sucks!

Haven't randomly blurted that out lately and now seemed like a good time.

Blogger Doom April 29, 2014 8:39 AM  

So, a system based on Christian faith, turned into a secular system, then built as Babel, with each man (or woman) as a brick, is falling? You don't say. Who'd a thunk.

I'm not sure I am seeing the problem. I suppose if you have a lot of money, or are a "sophisticate" whose life is based on being with other such useless tits, a fall from favor means something. But, really, for the average man, once things are settled, this will pave the way to a more honest existence. A little more raw, sure, but... Not a bad thing to my eyes.

Anonymous Philalethes April 29, 2014 8:43 AM  

PS to above re Vladimir Putin, martial artist. Obama looks fit, anyway, but can you imagine him on the mat? His mind is putty. Pat Buchanan insists that Putin is a monster, but I bet Pat can hardly get his belt around his paunch. The West simply has nobody to offer with Putin's kind of self-discipline (and apparently self-awareness). Russia is looking increasingly like the future, if they can keep it up. Siberia is a vast reservoir of resources, even if they eventually have to "share" with China.

Anonymous Michael Maier April 29, 2014 8:50 AM  

Jake April 29, 2014 8:00 AM @ mmaier2112: You obviously live in a bubble. I used to live around muslims and they are the worst neighbours. They like rape, theft and trying to start fights with non muslims. They are also filthy and will shit in public.

Hold on, hoss. I haven't claimed experience living near them. I just expressed surprise that a "large" organization of them is here. It seems like an odd fit.

Indianapolis is a very large city (and low density, very spread out) and they're just outside city limits on the SW side in Plainfield. I'm on the NE. The only exposure I've had to Islam is a dimwit broad at work who seems like a shifty character and is fine working so she can play second fiddle wife to a supposed layabout.

I'm just saying they're freakin' TOAST if things go to hell politically. Plainfield is surrounded by farmers and hard-working folks that are not going to have much patience for pagan "ferriners".

Seriously, I do not see the police working very hard to protect anyone's right, let alone a bunch of "A-rabs".

Blogger The Anti-Gnostic April 29, 2014 9:05 AM  

And that House of Islam will mobilize and send troops to protect their "embassy" if the country goes to hell, right?

They absolutely will. They have unity of vision and organization. Whites do not, which is why they let other nations take root here in the first place.

Blogger tz April 29, 2014 9:15 AM  

Terrorists in Minnesota

Blogger David April 29, 2014 9:20 AM  

This is all BS. The Deep State has fostered international conflict since at least the Cold War as a means of rationalizing its parasitic life to the tax slaves building its members' pyramids.

The US Deep State overplayed its hand and has destroyed the goose that was laying its golden eggs. If National Defense was ever really important at all, how absurd that it was built around a model that had most in common with Totalitarian Socialism.

Brooks is just a mouthpiece for the Nomenklatura and should be ridiculed as such.

Blogger James Dixon April 29, 2014 9:24 AM  

> But, really, for the average man, once things are settled, this will pave the way to a more honest existence.

It's the "once things are settled" part that's problematic, Doom. The settling process is not going to be pleasant for most people.

Blogger David April 29, 2014 9:24 AM  

I've lived across the street and down the street from Muslims for 26 years and I can't recall any of the raping their non-Muslim neighbors.

The Muslims I know (quite a few) are no better or worse than anyone else I know. All birds of a feather tend to flock together.

I find some of the vitriol in comments here inscrutable.

Anonymous Josh April 29, 2014 9:30 AM  

The only time muslims have unity of vision and organization is when they have an external enemy to resist.

Muslims have been fighting amongst each other for almost all of their history.

Blogger The Anti-Gnostic April 29, 2014 9:34 AM  

I'm not sure if David Brooks is a smart guy playing dumb or a dumb guy trying to sound smart.

Brooks is a slippery intellect. He is (Sailer insists) a very regular reader of iSteve but thinks he can out-argue Sailer's points by trying to set up a race-realist or related point as the bland, misplaced 'conventional wisdom,' which Brooks then skewers with his maverick intellect.

This is pretty much what Brooks does here, casting liberal pluralism as this venerable historic goal to which civilization has always aspired. And now, Brooks tells his audience in hushed whispers, the barbarians are at the gates! The Russians and Chinese threaten liberal, pluralistic Western Civilization!

The truth of course is that Brooks conflates (deliberately) the cause and effect. In the case of the US a particular people, Anglo-Celts who read Adam Smith and John Locke, established a minarchist settlement in pure wilderness and quickly built it into a nation of unrivaled peace and prosperity. Then the pluralism came, as people all over the world voted with their feet for the rule of law and low taxes established by Anglo-Celts, who are just about the only people in the world who give a shit about such things. Everywhere else, law flows from the Nation-State uber alles or from the local Big Man.

It's like Richard "Dr. Vibrancy" Florida looking at prosperous cities, seeing all the fabulous fags and bohemians, and declaring that prosperity flows from homosexuals and bohemians. But that's not how things work at all. Things actually start with boring heterosexual white guys doing remunerative stuff. Then they start running help wanted ads for young people and their cultured wives start funding artistic ventures. Dick Florida, of course, is not really interested in prosperity; he's interested in being surrounded by lots of homosexuals and libertines.

Same with Brooks; he's not trying to save Western Civilization. He's trying to save liberal pluralism.

Anonymous Roundtine April 29, 2014 9:36 AM  

Why wouldn't the international system collapse? It was always a unipolar Western designed world. Communism was a Western ideology that gripped the world for a time.The West was fighting its own demon spawn in Hitler and the Soviets. Now the old world is bouncing back. There is this great map showing more people live in a circle around South/Southeast/East Asia than live outside of it.

The collapse of the U.S. dollar as reserve currency is happening for the same reason. Even if it were run perfectly by a united, well-run, strong and assertive United States,the decline would still be happening because on relative terms the United States is declining in its share of global political and economic power. Rickard's new book on the Death of Money is explicit about the IMF becoming the global central bank and issuing SDRs. They indeed will fail upwards as Vox has predicted.

Someone needs to give Brookes the memo: there's nothing to save. It makes as much sense as trying to save the foreign concessions in China or the colonies in Africa. Or as much sense for China to try and make the whole world adopt a Confucian system. This is the age of multiculturalism, pluralism and diversity in international systems. .

Blogger The Anti-Gnostic April 29, 2014 9:39 AM  

Yes, in time the Sunni-Shia conflict will play out here as well. That does not disprove my point: Muslims have unity of vision and organization, backed by more money than Caesar.

The Muslims I know (quite a few) are no better or worse than anyone else I know.

That's how they are in the US. Try living in a Muslim-majority country and see if you still have that polite, tolerant opinion of them.

Why do you think Syrian Alawites and "Kemalist" Egyptian generals are doing they can to avoid rule by their countries' Muslim majorities?

Anonymous Salt April 29, 2014 9:42 AM  

As it all slides downhill I rather doubt that Islam will find a home in the US. Islam is incompatible without the forced acceptance government has provided.

If they get too obnoxious in this country, they'll be butchered in very short order.

By whom? You're not going to do it.


Won't happen that way. Living here will become (religiously) intolerable. Call it the Christian Bacon effect, even if it's post-Christian.

Europe has much more historical dealings with Islam and their beginning to look askance now. Islam is but sojourners outside of the mid-east, and they're beginning to outstay their welcome.

Anonymous Josh April 29, 2014 9:44 AM  

I wonder if this is how the British felt when they started to realize that the empire was doomed.

Anonymous The other skeptic April 29, 2014 10:05 AM  

The liberal pluralistic system is not a spontaneous natural thing.

He could have dispensed with all the rest. That is the most important part of it all.

Putin is returning Russia to its 'spontaneous natural thing.' China already has one, and so forth. Things that are unnatural tend to fall apart.

I liked the mention of the 'parasitic cysts in its brain.'

Anonymous Heh April 29, 2014 10:06 AM  

"As to Russia collapsing anytime soon, they will soon have military bases in Cuba, Nicaragua and Venezuela. These could be used to base warships and aircraft capable of interdicting a substantial amount of the world's trade"

LOLOL you the handful of Soviet-era ships the Russians have that can barely get out of port? Yeah, I'm reaaaaally scared of them being based in the Caribbean.

Anonymous LES April 29, 2014 10:08 AM  

David Brooks is a neocon. Neocons believe in "creative destruction" to bring in
the New World Order. This global government is to be led by Israel in order to prepare for the coming Jewish Messiah. I'm not so sure they can be stopped seeing that the US is doing the dirty work. We'll just have to wait and see if the Messiah shows up.

Anonymous Heh April 29, 2014 10:09 AM  

"I wonder if this is how the British felt when they started to realize that the empire was doomed."

They said, "Uncle Sam will help us keep it together, because we speak the same language and we both hate the same people."

But Uncle Sam wanted to run his own empire, not prop up someone else's bankrupt one.

Blogger Nate April 29, 2014 10:19 AM  

"LOLOL you the handful of Soviet-era ships the Russians have that can barely get out of port? Yeah, I'm reaaaaally scared of them being based in the Caribbean."

No sugar tits. He means the advanced ships... like the one that just sailed up a few miles off the coast of florida, gave us the finger, and floated away.

Anonymous A Visitor April 29, 2014 10:26 AM  

We have a huge Islamic center just outside of Indianapolis. I'm still kind of shocked at that one. Yep, Plainfield...pisses me off. It's funny to think about what Indy was like when I was a kid. 38th Street was bad but people still spoke English. Now, it's overrun with Mexicans, Nicaraguans, Guatemalans...there are billboards in Spanish as far north as 56th Street. Thankfully, we have only one Spanish radio station...for the moment.

I remember an old sob piece by CNN following two Muzzies around and they found the oldest mosque in the U.S. from 1830. I don't care. Look at all the warnings from the early 1900's vis-a-vis Islam and its compatibility with our republic.

With regards to the article, FSOs tend to be liberal. I knew a conservative one but I feel she was the exception, not the rule.

Blogger Nate April 29, 2014 10:27 AM  

''By whom? You're not going to do it. You're sitting there helplessly as they colonize your city. No one is going to do anything until it is too late. "

Now you sound like Civil Servant. You're assuming because someone hasn't snapped yet that they will not snap. Meanwhile graveyards are full of shrew wives that though the same thing about their husbands... right up until they got their heads blown off.

What you should consider is that its not nearly as bad here as you think it is. I'm sure its bad in minnesota and other places... but for the most part... most of us go months or years without ever laying eyes on a muslim.

I saw one last week... first time I had seen one since we moved to Alabama.

Eventually... when it gets bad enough... people will snap. After all... The moors may have taken Spain... but when I look at a map... I see Spain.

Anonymous Roundtine April 29, 2014 10:32 AM  

I wonder if this is how the British felt when they started to realize that the empire was doomed.

They spent the better part of the 20th Century behaving exactly as the U.S. is behaving now. They didn't fully give up until they needed a bailout from the IMF. There will be no bailout for the U.S.

Blogger The Anti-Gnostic April 29, 2014 10:34 AM  

In thinking about it, I have commented before that if people do get mad enough, the Muslims are liable to jump in the ocean and start trying to swim home.

Nate - you might be underestimating the number of Alabama gas stations and convenience stores that are run by Muslims.

Blogger Nate April 29, 2014 10:40 AM  

'Nate - you might be underestimating the number of Alabama gas stations and convenience stores that are run by Muslims."

And you are likely confusing muslims and hindus. pro-tip... all brownish people who talk funny are not muslim.

The corner gas station I used to frequent was bought by a little indian fellow... decent enough guy. Worked hard and kept the place tidy. wasn't making enough money so he sold the place and moved home.

another story...a local hotel was bought by an indian family and they fixed it up and ran it pretty well for years. Then one day the son snapped. See the city plants these gorgeous crepe myrtle trees in the median... and the son decided he was sick of people not being able to see the hotel sign through the trees... so he went out and cut about 20 of them down. They arrested him... fined him like 50 grand per tree... he posted bail... the family split and was never heard from again.

it sat empty for a while but its up and running again.

This really isn't that hard a problem to solve if you aren't a giant pussy.

Anonymous Jimmy Carter April 29, 2014 10:42 AM  

"Also, China and Russia have agreed to help build a shipping canal across Nicaragua that would be competitive with the Panama Canal."

Don't the Chinese already own the Panama Canal? Why would they need another one?

Blogger The Anti-Gnostic April 29, 2014 10:59 AM  

And you are likely confusing muslims and hindus. pro-tip... all brownish people who talk funny are not muslim.

I know the difference. I know blue-eyed Muslims from Syria. My cautionary note is that you may not be seeing what you don't want to see. The Syrian Alawites and Christians didn't see what they didn't want to see. Then everyone suddenly realized the Alawites and Christians were outnumbered 5 to 1.

Blogger Nate April 29, 2014 11:06 AM  

"I know the difference. I know blue-eyed Muslims from Syria. My cautionary note is that you may not be seeing what you don't want to see. "

see what I want to see? hoss there are only 10 gas stations within 20 miles of where I live... and all of them are owned and run by white rednecks.

Anonymous Susan April 29, 2014 11:11 AM  

Sometimes I read posts like this and I wonder exactly how many suicides and mental breakdowns we will see among the commentators like Krugman, Brooks, etc when society does collapse. I really don't think that most of them are going to be capable of surviving the new reality. They are so emotionally connected and invested in this version right now.

As to the muslim infestation finally running amok, I think what the muslims are counting on are the people who really don't see them as a viable threat. Until it's too late to do anything that is. After all, nobody ever expects the Spanish Inquisition.

Blogger Nate April 29, 2014 11:17 AM  

"After all, nobody ever expects the Spanish Inquisition."

Except their logic is flawed. 1) its only social pressure from the lefties that keep the folks on the right from literally burning the mosques to the ground. 2) the ramping up social war between the right and left will by-definition reduce the impact of that social pressure. After all.. you've already shunned me for not bowing deeply enough to the sacred minority. Why should I listen to you anymore? Why not just do what I want?

Anonymous a_peraspera April 29, 2014 11:19 AM  

About the big mosque outside Plainfield, Indiana - I used to live near there. On 9/11 while the WTC towers were burning and falling, the local cops put up a barricade to protect the mosque from any angry white people who might decide to carry out "blowback."

That mosque was the only building (aside from government buildings) that received police protection that day. Make of that what you will.

Anonymous Heh April 29, 2014 11:27 AM  

"No sugar tits. He means the advanced ships... like the one that just sailed up a few miles off the coast of florida, gave us the finger, and floated away."

It amuses me that you're dumb enough to believe any part of that story -- and it amuses me even more that you think it supports the 'Russian naval threat in the Caribbean' fantasy.

Anonymous Anonymous April 29, 2014 11:28 AM  

Philalethes, "PS to above re Vladimir Putin, martial artist. Obama looks fit, anyway, but can you imagine him on the mat? His mind is putty."

Chuck Norris, where are you?

Blogger Nate April 29, 2014 11:36 AM  

"It amuses me that you're dumb enough to believe any part of that story -- and it amuses me even more that you think it supports the 'Russian naval threat in the Caribbean' fantasy."

Now you're jumping to conclusions. I don't see any part of the thing as an actual threat. I see it for what it is. Its russia saying "fuck you".

Anonymous Don April 29, 2014 11:41 AM  

Heh - It doesn't matter if the ships were rust buckets or top of the line warships. The fact is they sailed them into our waters and we did what? Nothing. We will continue to do nothing. If we continue in the Ukraine like we think Russia is Libya we'll find our asses in a crack.

We cannot beat them in Ukraine, we cannot even make them hurt. And if we keep poking them they're going to start selling oil and gas to whomever with whatever currency floats their boat.

How long after the petro-dollar is as obsolete as a sesterce before we come unraveled?

OpenID cailcorishev April 29, 2014 11:45 AM  

On 9/11 while the WTC towers were burning and falling, the local cops put up a barricade to protect the mosque from any angry white people who might decide to carry out "blowback."

Or to keep locals from seeing the party that was going on out back.

Anonymous Shibes Meadow April 29, 2014 12:02 PM  

The United States armed forces could defeat the Russians on the ground, at sea, or in the air -- assuming a straight- up, World War II sort of total war.

But it takes a World War II country to wage a World War II. And we haven't been one for 65 years.

You will notice that I did not say "we" could beat the Russians. I said that the United States could. That entity, sadly, no longer represents the interests and values of people who look and believe like me.

As I told my son the other day: "When you say the pledge and sing the anthem, do it for the America that landed on the moon. The America we have now isn't worthy of either."

Anonymous Jack Amok April 29, 2014 12:09 PM  

Vaguely related: U.S. map showing how concentrated mosques are by state:

Useless. That might as well be a generic population map of the US. You'd get almost the same map if it was showing McDonald's franchises.

Anonymous Roundtine April 29, 2014 12:17 PM  

How many of the "muslims" are members of the Nation of Islam?

Anonymous Stilicho April 29, 2014 12:18 PM  

Trust, or rather the lack of it, is the key issue here whether we're talking about international or intra-national relationships. The U.S. is no longer trusted to manage the world's reserve currency nor is it trusted to maintain the Pax Americana in a manner that, if not palatable, is at least bearable by the other major powers. Additionally, no supra-national organization (e.g. UN, IMF, etc.) is trusted to fulfill those roles. Similarly, the U.S. gov't is no longer trusted to look after the best interests of its own citizens. The default will be nations and cohesive groups (within the U.S.) looking after their own interests. This is both natural and inevitable. Statists/one worlders may dream of an all-powerful dictatorship that can keep humanity and human nature subservient to their goals by brute force, but it remains an unachievable dream that will, unfortunately, kill millions before it lands on the ash heap of history with its kin for the simple reason that you cannot force trust. Without trust, such complex systems collapse under their own weight.

Anonymous Heh April 29, 2014 12:42 PM  

"I see it for what it is. Its russia saying "fuck you"."

It is Russia talking smack. Doesn't mean it actually happened or that their "advanced" ships can do jack shit.

Blogger ScuzzaMan April 29, 2014 1:23 PM  

Anyone who buys into the manichean fantasy of "the West" as good guys confronting a variety of evil threats (be they China, Russia, Islam, or whatever) has already destroyed any credibility they might otherwise have as a serious analyst of political history.

Even though Vox Day is correct that there are good things in our western cultural tradition that are worth preserving, the beliefs, wroldviews, mores, morals (or lack thereof) and attitudes, of our political class do not fit into this category.

Indeed, these are the primary cause of the ongoing disintegration of the West, our decline in economic (therefore military) power and moral suasion.

Like all civilisations, ours is being hollowed out from within.

Anyone who screams "clash of civilisations" and urges that we pay attention to external threats rather than those doing actual damage to us from within, is an ally (witting or otherwise) of those doing the damage.

Blogger ScuzzaMan April 29, 2014 1:35 PM  

@Shibes Meadow:

You're on the right path, but in 1969 the US was doing / had been doing, all the same things it is doing now / has recently been doing, i.e. overthrowing elected governments, invading countries that represented no threat to you, maiming and killing millions in the process,and concocting manifestly incredible stories about all of it.

The only real difference is that the lies about why she does these things are believed by fewer people today. The lies were never really believable, in and of themselves, but were believed by many of us because we had our own reasons for wanting to believe them (as well as due to various efforts to obscure the truth).

There's something to be said for realising that things are not what most people pretend them to be.

Take the next step and realise that they never were.

Living in a fantasy past can be just as debilitating as living in a fantasy present.

IMO.

Anonymous Earl Ragnar Cheddarman April 29, 2014 3:06 PM  

Men of the west,

Don't despair of the fall of civilization. There is a lot of money to be made off of its demise. Consider this simple business plan as one potential way to thrive in the coming chaos:

1) Assemble a crew of vikings and a sailing ship
2) Raid a coastal town, and carry off the fatties. (The town residents will be, for the most part, thankful to be rid of them)
3) Chain the fatties to the oars, and make them row.
3) Sell the considerable thinner and now former fatties as slaves at the next town.
4) Repeat

sincerely

Earl Ragnar Cheddarman

Anonymous Concerned Rabbit Hunter April 29, 2014 4:44 PM  

"That mosque was the only building (aside from government buildings) that received police protection that day. Make of that what you will."

Did they have advance warning?

Blogger Nate April 29, 2014 5:10 PM  

"Doesn't mean it actually happened or that their "advanced" ships can do jack shit."

Mate it happened... and not only that... its been happening more and more frequently. In the past they've done it with subs... now they have a new corvette to play with.

This is just one more way that putin reminds obama who the bitch is.

Anonymous Jack Amok April 29, 2014 5:16 PM  

A pluralistic society is supposedly one with a multitude - a plurality - of groups that get along with one another and where there is not a majority group that dictates a way of life to the minority groups.

In reality, a pluralistic society is one with an uber-majority - 85 to 90 percent of the populace - that agrees on some basic foundations and then agrees to disagree on the rest. The basic foundations need to be enough that people don't feel like they're being undermined by their neighbors, but not so much that the neighbors legitimately feel oppressed.

Leftists shattered that uber-majority in their drive to acquire power by assembling a coalition of malcontents.

Anonymous nordicthunder April 29, 2014 6:41 PM  

Shibes says -


"As I told my son the other day: "When you say the pledge and sing the anthem,the America that landed on the moon. The America we have now isn't worthy of either. do it for "


this- the America that landed on the moon

I'm certain Nate will be along shortly to discuss this matter with you

Anonymous Ahmed April 29, 2014 7:52 PM  

. Try living in a Muslim-majority country and see if you still have that polite, tolerant opinion of them.

Just try living in a muslim neighbourhood for a quick glimpse .

Anonymous Box Of Chocolates April 29, 2014 7:54 PM  

"A pluralistic society is supposedly one with a multitude - a plurality - of groups that get along with one another and where there is not a majority group that dictates a way of life to the minority groups."

Fixed it--A pluralistic society is decidedly one with a wide range of groups that get along with one another, which may even live separately in their own enclaves, and where a majority group may rule, even dominate, politically, economically, and socially, because the minority groups have clear-cut opportunities to advance in that group and have their liberties and freedoms protected.


“The truth of course is that Brooks conflates (deliberately) the cause and effect. In the case of the US a particular people, Anglo-Celts who read Adam Smith and John Locke, established a minarchist settlement in pure wilderness and quickly built it into a nation of unrivaled peace and prosperity. Then the pluralism came, as people all over the world voted with their feet for the rule of law and low taxes established by Anglo-Celts, who are just about the only people in the world who give a shit about such things. Everywhere else, law flows from the Nation-State uber alles or from the local Big Man.”



Talk about conflating deliberately! It wasn’t ONLY “Anglo-Celts” who read the works of those great men, but Danes, Germans, Africans, Jews, Presbyterians, Mennonites, etc. who put into practice those principles of liberty and prosperity by interacting and living together as distinct peoples AND as one group with common ties. Pluralism was a feature, not a bug, in the Thirteen Colonies.


“You're sitting there helplessly as they colonize your city.”

I bear witness the libertarian Christian intelligentsia at full throat. They are NOT colonizing; it’s called freedom of association, my friend. There is no jihad being waged by my Islamic neighbors, they simply want to live in peace without the radical Jews and Christians making repeated unsubstantiated claims they are clearly organizing a violent upheaval of American society. Besides, what ought I do? Demand they sell their homes just because they are “muzzies” and “terrorists”? How? But what means? Please assist this “helpless” man.


“I hope you realize that no matter what your zoning bylaws state, the ground that it sits on is not part of the USA anymore. It is a part of the sovereign nation of Islam.”

Your “logic” can also be applied to Jews and Christians. Happy?


“Sadly, the bankstas will survive, on top, firmly in the saddle, and will create their New World Banking Order as they did after WW1 and WW2. War permits extreme flexibility, distraction and openness to new ideas.”



Indeed, let us purge “banksters” Stalin style, create a monetary system free government control, and ban usury. I am quite certain our economy will markedly improve as a result of these abominations.


“And if things disintegrate to that point, they'll be mopped up quickly and their pagan temples razed.”

If you honestly believe that everyday Christians and Jews will eventually throw Molotov cocktails in the name of Jesus, then you clearly think they are Jihadists at their core.


“Try living in a Muslim-majority country and see if you still have that polite, tolerant opinion of them.”



Clearly you have not lived in Indonesia. Courteous, respectful...humane.


“Eventually... when it gets bad enough... people will snap.”
“I have commented before that if people do get mad enough, the Muslims are liable to jump in the ocean and start trying to swim home.”



Say the civilized savages.


"When you say the pledge and sing the anthem, do it for the America that landed on the moon. The America we have now isn't worthy of either."

Then leave. I’ll stand up and sing proudly.

Anonymous rycamor April 29, 2014 8:54 PM  

Nate April 29, 2014 5:10 PM

"Doesn't mean it actually happened or that their "advanced" ships can do jack shit."

Mate it happened... and not only that... its been happening more and more frequently. In the past they've done it with subs... now they have a new corvette to play with.

This is just one more way that putin reminds obama who the bitch is.


And... Americans should not be so quick to dismiss Russian competence at shipbuilding. There was a downturn in shipbuilding with the collapse of the Soviet Union, but Russia is now back on par with that, if not more. And even in the Soviet times, Russia came up with some innovations we didn't. I wonder what kind of Ekranoplan is in the making now.

Blogger Tommy Hass April 29, 2014 9:16 PM  

"We have a huge Islamic center just outside of Indianapolis. I'm still kind of shocked at that one.

I still do not see Islam as any sort of existential threat. If they get too obnoxious in this country, they'll be butchered in very short order.

They're pagan bastards"

You're a empty headed, posturing, gutless sack of shit. You sit behind your computer, talking like the second coming of Vlad Tepes, when in reality, you're somebody who lives in a fantasy world wherein he imitates crusaders who were embarrassed more often than not.

And by the way, a religion that believes in the Abrahamic God, Moses, David, Abraham, Jesus and Mary cannot possibly be pagan you smelly skidmark.

Choke yourself.

Anonymous Jack Amok April 29, 2014 9:32 PM  

I'm confused, Box of Chocolates. You used the phrase "Fixed it" which usually indicates

a) that the original comment was incorrect in some way, and

b) that you modified it.

I think what you meant to write was "In other words..."

Blogger mmaier2112 April 29, 2014 9:46 PM  

@ Tommy Hass: Piss off, you wanker.

I never made a threat, just an observation. Much to the mockery of most here, I am more of a pacifist bent than most. That's not my gut's call, it's my spirit's. I won't initiate violence against anyone.

But if you think the folks around here in Indiana will give Islamists an ounce of quarter or mercy, you're wrong. The farmers and workers that feed this country hate Obama and you think they'll give a whit of care or mercy for proclaimed Muslims?

You're an imbecile.

And, yes, they are PAGAN. They do not honour the Lord Jesus Christ as divine or our Holy Savior. They worship something Other. I would guess Islam is actually Satanic, but I do not really care. It's not Christian. It's not Abrahamic.

I can hope for them to convert to the faith of Jesus, but if they choose not to, I'll borrow the phrase of our good host:

"I don't care if you burn in Hell."

Blogger kudzu bob April 29, 2014 10:24 PM  

@Philalethes

Pat Buchanan insists that Putin is a monster

That’s a lie, O “lover of truth.”

Anonymous The other skeptic April 29, 2014 11:57 PM  

Slow Motion Bust - The Long Goodbye - One-Sided Incentives from Mish.

Anonymous Box Of Chocolates April 30, 2014 12:08 AM  

Wait, the other septic tank, we are to believe an investment consultant, a person who has siphoned money at other people's expense, about impending doom? Seriously?


"I think what you meant to write was "In other words...""

No, I was correct in saying "Fixed it". Next...

Anonymous Jack Amok April 30, 2014 12:36 AM  

Next? Sure, no problem. I'll wait for the next guy who doesn't understand what he's saying to stroll on by. Seems to be quite a parade of them these days.

Anonymous Dark April 30, 2014 1:07 AM  

Honestly when a society has got to the point its killing children as a "right" then it deserves to fall anyway hopefuly aftert he chaos we will have a more sensible homogeneous set of country's

Anonymous A Visitor April 30, 2014 11:57 AM  

The farmers and workers that feed this country hate Obama

The only reason we, Indiana, went blue in '08 was because of Marion County (Indianapolis), Tippecanoe County (Lafayette and West Lafayette), Lake County (Gary; corrupt extension of Chi-town politics), and Monroe County (Bloomington).

Anonymous Athor Pel April 30, 2014 1:05 PM  

" Tommy HassApril 29, 2014 9:16 PM
...
You're a empty headed, posturing, gutless sack of shit. You sit behind your computer, talking like the second coming of Vlad Tepes, when in reality, you're somebody who lives in a fantasy world wherein he imitates crusaders who were embarrassed more often than not.

And by the way, a religion that believes in the Abrahamic God, Moses, David, Abraham, Jesus and Mary cannot possibly be pagan you smelly skidmark.
..."



Nice of you to confirm what you are for everybody reading here.

Anonymous Box Of Chocolates April 30, 2014 7:51 PM  

"I'll wait for the next guy who doesn't understand what he's saying to stroll on by."


Wow, you actually are right...Dark, A Visitor, Athol Pel.

Anonymous scoobius dubious May 01, 2014 11:26 AM  

"After all... The moors may have taken Spain... but when I look at a map... I see Spain."

Oh, righty-oh then. And what do you see when you look at a map of Turkey? A map of Egypt? A map of the Levant? A map of Iraq? You do realize that Arabs are not native to Syria, right? Right?

In a hundred years time, will anyone remember that Minneapolis was once a non-Somali city? How about Detroit, will anyone remember that vibrancy did not build it, and that non-vibrancy did not destroy it?

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