ALL BLOG POSTS AND COMMENTS COPYRIGHT (C) 2003-2014 VOX DAY. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. REPRODUCTION WITHOUT WRITTEN PERMISSION IS EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED.

Tuesday, April 29, 2014

Mailvox: on surviving a witchhunt

I was asked to have a look at this question on Roosh's forum, as it is something that more and more people are likely to face in the near future:
Witchhunts are becoming more and more common. A full list of people purged from their jobs for their political or social views can be found here. The most recent and famous is the Modzilla CEO. Now it looks like another tech startup founder is about to go.

I'm considering putting together an article for ROK on surviving witchhunts, but before I do, I'd like to see how the collective wisdom of the forum would respond to this situation.

Imagine your RVF account is connected to your real name. A liberal staff writer publishes a viral piece on an unpopular opinion you hold. A former girlfriend spreads a false abuse rumor. An employee part of a protected minority calls you bigoted because you don't share their politics. The mob realizes you aren't one of their tribe.

Whatever the accusation, your off hand comment or personally held view spins into a scandal as cultural elites and twitter mobs call for your resignation. Industry peers begin to distance themselves from you anticipating a purge. What would you do?
As it happened, the tech founder did end up being convinced to fall on his sword. One might well say that I am the wrong man to ask, given that my lifetime membership obviously did not survive the SFWA purge.  (It is listed at number 126 on the list linked above.) On the other hand, having been through the process, perhaps some of my thoughts about it may prove useful.
  1. Recognize that it is happening. In the case of my own purging by SFWA, I was initially caught a little by surprise because my nominal offense was so minor, had previously been committed by literally scores of other members, (including three members of the Board), and carried a specific penalty that had already been applied. It took me nearly a day to realize that they were going to take the inch I had given them and run a marathon with it. By the second day, I knew they intended to expel me at any cost, by any means necessary.
  2. Don't think that you can reason your way out of it. Most people have the causality backwards. They think the purge is taking place due to whatever it is that they did or said. That's not the case. It is taking place because of who you are and what you represent to them. The truth is that the faction behind your prospective purge already wanted you out and they are simply using the nominal reason given as an excuse to get rid of you. Despite my long and detailed defense, I never imagined for one second that it would be successful. In presenting it, I had other objectives in mind.
  3. Do not apologize! They will press you hard for an apology and repeatedly imply that if you will just apologize, all will be forgiven. Don't be fooled! They are simply looking for a public confession that will confirm their accusations, give them PR cover, and provide them with the necessary ammunition to expel you. Apologizing does nothing more than hand them the very weapon they are seeking.
  4. Expose their excesses. Most of the time, these purges are committed at least partially outside the organization's established rules and forms. You may not be an expert, but some of the people following along will be. Make sure every step in the process, and every piece of communication you receive from them, is publicized. They will pull out all the stops to hide their actions in order to avoid criticism, and in some of the more egregious cases, ridicule. Nine months later, SFWA STILL has not publicly admitted that I was the member expelled by the SFWA Board, and they even filed a DMCA takedown notice against my ISP to hide their accusations against me from public scrutiny. So shine the light of truth on the insects and watch them scurry.
  5. Do not resign! Their real goal is not to formally purge you, but to encourage you to quit on your own. That allows them to publicly wash their hands of it and claim that your decision to leave was not their fault. They will often enlist more reasonable allies to approach you and tell you that it's not possible for you to continue any more, they will appeal to the good of the organization, and they will go on and on about the importance of an amicable departure. Don't fall for it. Don't do their dirty work for them. Make them take the full responsibility for throwing you out, thereby ensuring they have to suffer the long-term consequences of their actions.
  6. Make the rubble bounce. Whether you survive the purge or whether you don't, observe who has defined himself as ally, enemy, or neutral during the process. The choices will pleasantly surprise you about as often as they disappoint you. Target the enemy at every given opportunity. Benefit your allies at every given opportunity, even if they are the lukest of lukewarm friends. Treat neutrals fairly, assume nothing of them either way, and refrain from judging them or attempting to convince them to take a side. Never forget that it is better to be respected than loved by your allies, and it is better to be feared than respected by your enemies. Your enemies will never love you, so don't spare a moment's thought about trying to appease them.
  7. Start nothing, finish everything. Reward your enemies who leave you alone by leaving them in peace. Reward your enemies who insist on continuing hostilities with responses that are disproportionate to their provocations. And never forget, no matter what they do, they cannot touch your mind, they cannot touch your heart, and they cannot touch your soul. Matthew 10:28.

Labels: ,

192 Comments:

Blogger JACIII April 29, 2014 9:43 AM  

Re: #7
A useful paraphrase that lends some perspective promotes some distance between such professional struggles and the important things, "They can't kill you and eat you."

Anonymous Josh April 29, 2014 9:51 AM  

Regarding #2, remember that "who, whom" is still the leftist worldview.

OpenID thetroll April 29, 2014 9:51 AM  

> Never forget that it is better to be respected than loved by your allies, and it is better to be feared than respected by your enemies.

Oh, I don't know about that, solid respect will get you through a lot. There's people who refuse to physically be in the same room as me that will nevertheless make me their #1 recommendation when somebody really, seriously, needs to have their program not suck.

Mind you, I'm certainly no Brendan Eich, and that didn't work out for him. I think the difference is that my personality and physical appearance invites comments like 'So, Wolverine was modelled on a real Canadian, was he?' and Messr. Eich's ... doesn't.

Anonymous JCB April 29, 2014 9:52 AM  

Have eff-you money.

That helps, too.

Anonymous Edward R. Murrow's Penis April 29, 2014 9:54 AM  

"Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"

Anonymous Edward R. Murrow's Penis April 29, 2014 9:55 AM  

LEW: Ah, I knew it was you! You tried to trick Hop Sing! You are on our list; Elaine Benes! And now you are on our list; Ned Isakoff.

Ned: You got me blacklisted from Hop Sing's?

LEW: She named name!

Blogger bdoran April 29, 2014 10:03 AM  

You forgot Revenge.
Also Step 0: FEAR. they'll f_ck with someone else.

Blogger Tank April 29, 2014 10:13 AM  

You should EMail this to Clipperland. Wonder what their rules actually say about private conversations.

Anonymous The other skeptic April 29, 2014 10:15 AM  

The claim is that we are all Galileo now, but in truth, Brendan Eich is the modern Galileo! Persecuted for daring to speak truth to power!

Anonymous Truth or Consequences April 29, 2014 10:18 AM  

And the culture wars continue to escalate. This should end well.

Anonymous Peter Garstig April 29, 2014 10:21 AM  

In essence: treat it like a shit test. Once again, game proves valuable outside of pu.

OpenID thetroll April 29, 2014 10:22 AM  

Mark Steyn has a good article today of not complete irrelevance to the witch hunt thing. More so, actually, as not many of us are being sued for multiple millions because of exercising our free speech, not even Our Gracious Host.

goo.gl/N0DH2d

Anonymous Anonymous Conservative April 29, 2014 10:28 AM  

I wonder if it is worth noting that the people doing this will tend to have defective amygdalae, and be easily spooked, and cowed by normal social pressure. Let's face it, the manosphere/right/etc is a scary place to little bunnies, if it isn't hidden behind a computer screen.

The problem is a guy like Vox is an amygdala stimulant, by being present in the org. If you want him to stay present, then taking action against him must be more amygdala stimulating than leaving him be. So long as you play by their rules (which are designed to shield their amygdalae from stimulation), it is difficult to mold events by applying pressure to their amygdalae. You've got to get outside the box somehow, and operate outside of their comfort zone if you are going to prevail.

Matt Forney wrote an article on one way he does this below, and I saw Roosh doing it a while back.

http://mattforney.com/2014/01/27/how-to-destroy-someones-reputation-with-google/

While we are on the subject, why isn't there a Commie Wiki, with all the open-sourced info on all our leftists crowd-sourced in? And what happened to DH's app?

Anonymous Huckleberry - est. 1977 April 29, 2014 10:31 AM  

Hold to your convictions.
You'd be amazed at how quickly you can thin the herd against you if you stand tall amid their first volley. It can turn a lot of enemies into neutrals who suddenly remember they have actual work to do, leaving only the die-hards and singling them out for all to see.

Anonymous Anonymous Conservative April 29, 2014 10:32 AM  

I wonder if it is worth noting that the people doing this will tend to have defective amygdalae, and be easily spooked, and cowed by normal social pressure. Let's face it, the manosphere/right/etc is a scary place to little bunnies, if it isn't hidden behind a computer screen.

The problem is a guy like Vox is an amygdala stimulant, by being present in the org. If you want him to stay present, then taking action against him must be more amygdala stimulating than leaving him be. So long as you play by their rules (which are designed to shield their amygdalae from stimulation), it is difficult to mold events by applying pressure to their amygdalae. You've got to get outside the box somehow, and operate outside of their comfort zone if you are going to prevail.

Matt Forney wrote an article on one way he does this below, and I saw Roosh doing it a while back.

http://mattforney.com/2014/01/27/how-to-destroy-someones-reputation-with-google/

While we are on the subject, why isn't there a Commie Wiki, with all the open-sourced info on all our leftist friend's personal data crowd-sourced in? And what happened to DH's app?

Anonymous Michael Maier April 29, 2014 10:33 AM  

The times I've been called on "Non-PC" views, I've basically gone with Fred's "So What?" defense.

And I give them a LOT of ammo to use against me because I cannot be bothered to censor my thoughts on topics like sex, "gender", women and their proper place, race, religion or homos.

Hell, if they were ever really serious about PC purging, just my browser history and email traffic at work would be enough to cut my throat.

To hear some timid folks talk, I should have been fired years ago. But (thus far) everyone that starts harping on me backs off as soon as they realize I'm not cowed by their PC idiocy. Their expectation is immediate capitulation.

Don't EVER give it to them.

Anonymous Anonymous Cowherd April 29, 2014 10:35 AM  

Whinifred Mitchell Bimbo Executive Chairwoman of Mozilla and a few others inside the organisation and a few outside (OKStupid) wanted Brendan Eich out so their allies in the press were going to get him out.


Onto more important stuff. Latest Palemoon does not identify as Firefox.
If you had intended to go to London for the Hugo's you might like to bring your trip forward to May 23 to 25 where the ComicCon will be at the Excel Centre.

Blogger Beau April 29, 2014 10:36 AM  

I would add 8. Maintain your composure.

While your immediate opponents froth at the mouth, if you remain composed, it helps others discern the true nature of the thing - you are being attacked by a mob of juveniles. Masks come off - you are revealed as sane; even those ostensibly sympathetic to your antagonists may experience loathing at their vulgarity and perhaps reconsider their own beliefs.

Anonymous jamsco April 29, 2014 10:41 AM  

Do not apologize!

Unless you've actually done something sinful or foolish, right?

Anonymous Vidad April 29, 2014 10:43 AM  

We were basically purged from our church just over a month ago... by my uncle the pastor.

We were the only large family. We homeschooled. We didn't let the children eat garbage food like cake... and apparently, that made us offensive.

Attack after attack after attack... then when I finally responded after being asked "why I seemed to be withdrawn from the fellowship," I was accused of being "too offendable," "judgmental," "difficult," and a "square peg" who would never fit in.

The "shun" went up... and the family is now broken against us.

It happens. Conform or face the consequences. I just wish I could've read the passive-aggressive behavior before it came to a head... I never would have attended that "church."

Anonymous physics geek April 29, 2014 10:45 AM  

Make the rubble bounce.

Don't forget to scatter the stones and salt the earth. Also:

"When all else fails, kill it with fire."

"I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."

Blogger Beau April 29, 2014 10:49 AM  

Sorry to hear that Vidad.

Anonymous jamsco April 29, 2014 10:50 AM  

Start nothing, finish everything.

The difficulty with this line of thinking is
1. No one ever thinks they started it, and
2. No one can really finish anything.

Anonymous Vidad April 29, 2014 10:52 AM  

@Beau

Thanks. Painful experience, but we do have another church that has welcomed us in. Never had anything like this happen before.

Blame on my INTJ, I suppose. The analytical doesn't work with these types of people. Once I saw through the manipulation and groupthink... I was a threat.

Anonymous jamsco April 29, 2014 10:52 AM  

From Fawlty Towers:

Basil: Is there something wrong?
Elder Herr: Will you stop talking about the war?
Basil: Me! You started it!
Elder Herr: We did not start it!
Basil: Yes you did — you invaded Poland.

Blogger RD Miksa April 29, 2014 10:55 AM  

A great list, and one which will, I fear, be needed by more and more people as time goes on.

Now, if you excuse my boldness, I would suggest two additional sub-points as well:

1A. Expect it to happen. This does not mean that you are fearful of such a purging every single day, but rather that you have psychologically and materially prepared for it and will not be shocked or surprised if it does occur. This is especially important if you already know that you are somewhat of a controversial individual at work. Furthermore, expecting it to happen will also motivate you to work-out contingency plans and pre-plan your strategic options in the event that it does happen. For example, you can have a list of pre-picked blogs that you know you can contact to expose the issue the moment that you deem such a course of action desirable. In the end, it is just like living in an area with extreme weather conditions. An extreme storm that knocks out all your power for days on end might not happen when you are living in that area, but if you really expect it to happen, you will be prepared for it and you will have a plan on how to deal with it if it does happen. In the end, this will not only help reduce your stress levels if the event does happen, but also, by reducing your stress and shock, you will have more mental energy available to counter-attack against the purging itself.

4A. Advertise their hypocrisy & Use their Slogans Against Them. Most times, if you are purged, those that are doing the purging will not only be exceeding the rules of their organization to do so, but they will be employing a blatant double-standard to do so. For example, the tolerance-preachers will, no doubt, be highly intolerant in their purging of you. Or, as Vox pointed out, other members will have done the same thing that you did and yet they will not have been removed. So record and advertise this double-standard vociferously. This will also help you if the matter ever goes to some type of litigation; it may also help any fence-sitters to possibly (and likely quietly) begin supporting you in the matter. At the same time, use their slogans, such as “Tolerance” and “Openness” against them. Most companies and organizations have policies dictating that they must be tolerant of different religious and political opinions. Thus, in showing that they are being highly intolerant against your allegedly organizationally-protected views, you can show that these individuals are not only operating outside of the rules of their organization, but also that they are literally breaking their own rules in purging you. And again, exposing this will help you both in terms of future litigation that may occur concerning the matter, and it may help to win previously neutral allies to your side.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

Take care,

RD Miksa
www.idontgiveadamnapologetics.blogspot.com

Anonymous VD April 29, 2014 10:55 AM  

Unless you've actually done something sinful or foolish, right?

No, not in the context of a witchhunt. That tweet was certainly foolish, after all. In retrospect, I should have simply left it at the blog post. But once they're gearing up to come after you, you do not apologize, you do not back down, you do not even blink.

Jamsco, you're all about playing fair. And that's fine... so long as the other side is.

Anonymous dh April 29, 2014 11:05 AM  

Vidad--

I think you may be onto something. Food preferences are like some sort of hot-button to people. My kids don't eat sugar by design. It's a central point of breaking bad behavior and having a mindful life. My youngest too have never really eaten sugar. The oldest had to be broken. My wife had to be broken. I am.. still being broken.

But the point is really, why is it so offensive to other people? They already deal with the fact that we don't let them consume media willy nilly (we have a great firewall of dad at home, whitelisted websites for the kiddies; hand curated netflix list, plus all the public radio/TV they want [hey, we're still leftists]), we don't let them buy crap stuff (we lost a pair of friends who happened to run into us going into a rather high clothes store; what was lost on them is that we much happier to buy high value clothes once a year, and mend/repair as needed), and we don't let them eat crap food things.

What is it about these choices that so upset some people? It's like they are only happy if we are wasteful.

Blogger RD Miksa April 29, 2014 11:16 AM  

Oh, and one last point. If you want to increase your chances of not being purged, or at least getting a very good deal if you are purged, then I have to suggest the following:

Have as Much Dirt on the Organization as You Can

Every organization has its relatively benign but nevertheless embarrassing secrets, and every organization wants to keep those secrets in-house. And as a loyal member of such an organization, you have a duty—only up to a point, of course—not to advertise those secrets. But loyalty is a two-way street, and if an organization is going to throw you out to the wolves on a whim (rather than for a legitimate and justifiable reason), then your loyalty to them is no longer a virtue. As such, have some organizational dirt in your back-pocket, and do not be afraid to use it in order to ensure that you are not completely ruined by such a purging. The purging may happen anyway, but if they know that you know, and will use, facts and information that they do not want other people to know, then this will likely motivate them to compensate you more so than they would have done otherwise.

It’s a dirty tactic, but so is being purged from an organization that you have sweat and bled for, for not being PC enough.

Also, never forget to Project Strength. It’s human nature. Those individuals who wish to purge people will be much more inclined to attack a weaker opponent than one that they know will fight them tooth-and-nail. In the end, they may come after you anyway, but if you project strength and resolve, they will definitely think twice about doing so.

Take care,

RD Miksa
www.idontgiveadamnapologetics.blogspot.com

Blogger Lou Antonelli April 29, 2014 11:16 AM  

In the U.S. today, when there's a witchhunt on, it's the witches doing the hunting.

Anonymous Vidad April 29, 2014 11:19 AM  

@dh

Yeah. Us "not letting the kids eat cake" was brought up multiple times. I thought it was rather insane, but we were basically accused of being mean parents.

HA

We're one of the few healthy families there. No diabetes, no obesity, no skin issues. I just don't care to have my kids eating hydrogenated frosting with loads of white sugar and flour.

ANATHEMA MARANATHA

Anonymous Daniel April 29, 2014 11:23 AM  

Vidad, my condolences. If you are INTJ, it is possible you might have an easy time cutting off, defining and compartmentalizing the shunning in one sense, but a hard time letting go in another. My unasked (and, judging my track record, likely unwanted and unnecessary) counsel is to remind yourself to let go of it every day for the next year or so. After that, it should be gone for the most part.

I always tell people: I'm sorry my weird hurts your feelings.

Anonymous N5 April 29, 2014 11:25 AM  

These points will be very handy over the coming months. Thanks,

Anonymous Huckleberry - est. 1977 April 29, 2014 11:26 AM  

Us "not letting the kids eat cake" was brought up multiple times. I thought it was rather insane, but we were basically accused of being mean parents

Of course.
I'm assuming this initially riled up the women, who took it as a shaming of their own parental skills. It always starts with the women, and ends with them finding some way to be personally insulted.
Or maybe the church just thought you were threatening bake sale revenue.
Laugh if you want, but I know how serious some congregations can be about that kind of thing.

Blogger WATYF April 29, 2014 11:28 AM  

Start nothing, finish everything. Reward your enemies who leave you alone by leaving them in peace. Reward your enemies who insist on continuing hostilities with responses that are disproportionate to their provocations. And never forget, no matter what they do, they cannot touch your mind, they cannot touch your heart, and they cannot touch your soul. Matthew 10:28.

But not Matthew 5:44, eh?

WATYF

Anonymous G April 29, 2014 11:28 AM  

"The burden of proof doesn't matter in a show trial. When one's object is terror, the more egregious the injustice, the better."
-- Desiderius April 28, 2014 4:18 AM

Anonymous Josh April 29, 2014 11:33 AM  

Those choices make people upset because they serve as a mirror reflecting areas where they've failed.

Same reason fat people hate fit people.

Anonymous Stingray April 29, 2014 11:34 AM  

What is it about these choices that so upset some people?

They think you are judging them as they are judging you. In this world of, "you must speak your mind and not be a doormat!", that cannot be let go. The fact that you likely could not care less what how they spend their time is inconceivable. The thought that this could even be true only makes them feel worse, so they double down.

Regarding this post, I think people underestimate the value of integrity today, or they simply have no idea what it means.

Anonymous jamsco April 29, 2014 11:38 AM  

Jamsco, you're all about playing fair. And that's fine... so long as the other side is.

Who said anything about fair? I'm talking about taking responsibilities for your actions even if it weakens your position in the short term.

It's actually a sign of strength.

Anonymous VD April 29, 2014 11:39 AM  

As such, have some organizational dirt in your back-pocket, and do not be afraid to use it in order to ensure that you are not completely ruined by such a purging.

You mean like several years of their private Forum messages?

Anonymous VD April 29, 2014 11:42 AM  

It's actually a sign of strength.

No, Jamsco, it isn't. You're committing a category error and thinking in terms of character, not strategy. You don't even have the most basic conception of playing to win.

If you just want to be thought of as a fine fellow by some of the neutrals, by all means, apologize and resign. But that isn't my objective and so I would never advise people to do that.

Blogger JP April 29, 2014 11:47 AM  

At the very least, if you refuse to resign and there's no legit legally sound reason to fire you, you may even be enticed with a generous "severance package" if you're lucky. Hell, that's how I paid for our wedding two years ago.

Anonymous NorthernHamlet April 29, 2014 11:49 AM  


While politically this may be an issue for those on the right, I will note that I've seen more than plenty of purges throughout my time in corporate America that weren't political. They are an every day part of the environment and most men should prepare for them generally.

Don't think that you can reason your way out of it.

I cannot stress this one enough. Explaining will by and large further set up the situation you are trying to avoid. People see it as a weakness too often and rally against the person. Meeting irrationality with rationality will only further their reactionary nature.

Blogger Markku April 29, 2014 11:49 AM  

One should understand the important difference between apologizing and admitting that one had been wrong about something. The latter usually doesn't mean the former should be done. A simple error is very rarely a moral crime against someone.

It would have to be a pretty grave error, that results in actual harm, that it would be worth an apology. Like, publicly calling them a pedophile, and then finding out it wasn't so after all.

Blogger Markku April 29, 2014 11:52 AM  

Whenever someone apologizes to me about trivialities, my first thought is that their apologies aren't apparently worth much if they throw them around that easily.

Anonymous Josh April 29, 2014 11:54 AM  

Those choices upset some people because it serves as a mirror for their own lives and choices. They know deep down inside that they shouldn't have that credit card debt or that house they can't afford or that cake. But as long as everyone else is doing the same thing, they can live in the comfort of denial.

Same reason fitshaming is a thing now.

Anonymous dh April 29, 2014 11:59 AM  

AC--

"And what happened to DH's app?"

I am still spending a few cycles on it, but the patchwork of data retention and access laws, as well as some contradictory state laws makes it difficult for operational and legal reasons.

There maybe a more general service coming on that front, it's just not, I would say, imminent.

Anonymous civilServant April 29, 2014 12:06 PM  

Most people have the causality backwards. They think the purge is taking place due to whatever it is that they did or said. That's not the case. It is taking place because of who you are and what you represent to them. The truth is that the faction behind your prospective purge already wanted you out and they are simply using the nominal reason given as an excuse to get rid of you.

Exactly correct except they may not care at all about who the target is. Sometimes any target at all will suffice.

So shine the light of truth on the insects and watch them scurry.

This is nothing more than a power/perception issue. If the organization in question is affected by this then they are undeveloped and/or unserious.

And never forget, no matter what they do, they cannot touch your mind, they cannot touch your heart, and they cannot touch your soul. Matthew 10:28.

But they may touch your bank account. Matt 6:20-21.

Anonymous Vidad April 29, 2014 12:07 PM  

@Daniel

Yeah, letting go is good advice. My tendency is to worry at something until I've completely analyzed/resolved it. I cannot do that in this case, so I'm deliberately trying to silence the repeated memories of injustice. I met with my uncle after the shunning started, thanks to an intermediary, and he doubled down on teh insults and the "you're judgmental/make people feel weird/etc." stuff, so there's not really any resolution. The interesting point of this, however, is that he's the only person to directly confront us over these perceived "faults." And, as I've dug deeper into his history via other family members, it seems the accusing/shunning/breaking relationships/needing a circle of admirers is a repeating pattern. He is a true Alpha manipulator. I am not either. I think part of his problems stem from the thought that I can see through him or that I'm laughing at him. Unfortunately, I didn't peg the problems until it was too late since I was looking through the lens of past hero worship from when I was a kid and he was the awesome, successful uncle.

@Josh

The mirror thought had crossed my mind. We have no debt. We have lots of kids. We do not act or live like Americans. Yet I've never said anything accusatory towards those in the church that do, though upon occasion I have offered dietary advice. (Cut out wheat, carbs, etc., to those who ask.)

I was also accused by my uncle of having no empathy, in contrast to himself. Rycamor told me it was good I got out before the cult got too weird. Heh.

Blogger Bernard Brandt April 29, 2014 12:09 PM  

#8. When appropriate, wage law.

In many of these cases, the mode of attack is through the courts. Michael Mann's lawsuit against Mark Steyn is but one such example. In those cases, DO NOT try to defend yourself in court, unless there is no other choice. Publicize and crowd-source your defense. Accept legal help if it is given. Don't be another Aaron Swartz.

And consider what your legal options are in the event you are attacked. In some cases, one may have legal remedies. Of course, it is a legal maxim that 'He who goes to the courts to obtain justice often takes a wolf by the tail'. It may be better, upon mature consideration, not to proceed with those remedies. But if you have any friends or allies that have legal knowledge/skills, compare notes between them. And, of course, get competent legal counsel.

Anonymous jamsco April 29, 2014 12:17 PM  

If you just want to be thought of as a fine fellow by some of the neutrals, by all means, apologize and resign.

Are you intentionally trying to portray me incorrectly?

Again, who said anything about apologizing and resigning?
Apologizing might be wise, if your sinful/foolish action harmed someone, but it's often not going to be necessary. And in almost all cases, resigning won't be either.

And "being thought of as a fine fellow" should never be a person's primary concern.You should do the right thing because it's the right thing

Have you never seen me play to win?

OpenID pancakeloach April 29, 2014 12:22 PM  

@Vidad, that must have been a very painful situation, to have blood relatives involved as well as what should have been your church family. Oddly enough (or perhaps not so oddly) the same sort of thing happened to my own INTJ father when I was a child. We went Orthodox Presbyterian instead of PCA after that and haven't looked back since. ;)

Anonymous civilServant April 29, 2014 12:22 PM  

You're committing a category error and thinking in terms of character, not strategy.

Should a christian ever put strategy ahead of character?

Blogger Scott X April 29, 2014 12:26 PM  

I'd like to make a suggestion. It is vitally important that we begin to play by the same rules, even if they are distasteful, that the leftists use against us. Whenever, as others here have pointed out, a leftist weasels his way into an organization they will only hire other leftists. When I interview for positions with my firm it really isn't that difficult to weed out the leftists. One trick I use is to get a look at the applicant's car as they leave the parking lot. In my book, a single Obama-Biden decal is enough to get you off of my short list.

Yes, I have passed over more qualified candidates because of their political views. So fucking what? The people I hired were competent and I'd much rather mentor a kid that is likely to go on to have a family, build something in life, and most importantly not give aid and comfort to leftists, as opposed to some entitled, effeminate panty waist, even if his technical skills are better.

I don't hire urban youth either. I consider it my anti-affirmative action plan.

Anonymous G April 29, 2014 12:28 PM  

Jesus Christ, strategist:

""I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves."

Blogger Scott X April 29, 2014 12:28 PM  

To get my above post back on topic, if you're going to be persecuted, stack the deck with as many like-minded people as you can get into the organization.

Anonymous VD April 29, 2014 12:30 PM  

I met with my uncle after the shunning started, thanks to an intermediary, and he doubled down on teh insults and the "you're judgmental/make people feel weird/etc." stuff, so there's not really any resolution.

I would recommend cutting him out of your life completely.

Are you intentionally trying to portray me incorrectly?

No.

Apologizing might be wise, if your sinful/foolish action harmed someone, but it's often not going to be necessary. And in almost all cases, resigning won't be either.

Then you simply do not understand what we're talking about here. This is all in the context of witchhunts, Jamsco. I am not saying one should never, ever apologize for anything. Go read the list.

Anonymous Roundtine April 29, 2014 12:31 PM  

Those choices upset some people because it serves as a mirror for their own lives and choices.

That's exactly it. Nobody gets mad at the sprout eating hippies, they just laugh at them. The only time people got mad at those types was when they try to ban sugar for everyone. If people are getting mad when you're focused on doing things to make yourself or you children better off, it's because they see the truth in it.

Anonymous VD April 29, 2014 12:32 PM  

Should a christian ever put strategy ahead of character?

Always, in my opinion. We're not talking about the quality of character, we're talking about strength of character. Totally irrelevant. And, contra Jamsco, it takes a much stronger character to take the heat anyway.

Eich didn't resign because he had a strong character, although at least he wasn't weak enough to recant as demanded.

Anonymous Josh April 29, 2014 12:35 PM  

Vidad,

You don't have to say anything. Your very existence infuriates them.

See point 2 in the main post.

How many times does the Bible talk about the wicked hating the righteous?

Anonymous bw April 29, 2014 12:35 PM  

In the U.S. today, when there's a witchhunt on, it's the witches doing the hunting.

And their Enabling, Excuse-making White Knights.

Anonymous jamsco April 29, 2014 12:41 PM  

"I would recommend cutting him out of your life completely."

One of the darker aspects of Vox's "Finish Everything"

Anonymous Jeanne April 29, 2014 12:44 PM  

"You mean like several years of their private Forum messages?"

[Chuckles]....

Blogger ScuzzaMan April 29, 2014 12:45 PM  

Solomon said that "the borrower is servant to the lender". If your income / rent / food is dependent on not upsettting some corporate standard of political orthodoxy, then you need to explore other options BEFORE it becomes critical.

There is no way to be completely bulletproof, but there ARE ways to protect yourself. Being in a position where you are difficult to threaten will make it a lot easier to speak the simple truth without feeling obliged to lowtow to anyone elses ideas of what is politically correct.

Yes, we all ought to be staunch enough to speak the truth irrespective, but human nature is such that most of us have pressure points where we feel vulnerable and money is probably the most common of those.

People have been writing books for decades about starting your own business and developing alternate revenue streams.

The growing popularity of stalinist purges is just one more good reason to actually do it.

Anonymous Josh April 29, 2014 12:47 PM  

No, that's not a darker aspect, that's calling having good freaking boundaries.

Your family comes first. If anyone threatens the peace of your family, you have to cut them out.

Some people are cancers. They just are.

Anonymous jamsco April 29, 2014 12:51 PM  

"And, contra Jamsco, it takes a much stronger character to take the heat anyway."

Where did I say something that disagreed with that? Could you try to portray me more correctly?

Anonymous Salt April 29, 2014 12:53 PM  

If it's to be subject of a witch hunt, burn the place down on your way out.

Anonymous VD April 29, 2014 12:54 PM  

One of the darker aspects of Vox's "Finish Everything"

What is dark about it? Jesus himself demanded a man be willing to turn his back on his family regardless of how they behaved. There are many, many far worse things than cutting a few problem-causing people out of your life.

Anonymous G April 29, 2014 12:57 PM  

Sadly, Twitchhunts are becoming really popular, even by those you might admire:

https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/402224063549935616

Nassim N. Taleb ‏@nntaleb
Let us use the internet to shame offenders and psychopaths. Please shame Melissa Bachman. @GadSaad http://bit.ly/1e9A9fx

Anonymous jamsco April 29, 2014 12:57 PM  

"Your family comes first. If anyone threatens the peace of your family, you have to cut them out."

Is the uncle a Christian (and just really really wrong?) Then he is a brother in Christ who should not be completely shut out.

Is the uncle not a Christian? The nephew has a unique relationship with him and there might be opportunities to move him towards salvation.

And in both cases, this can be done in ways that are not jeopardizing to the family.

Anonymous RedJack April 29, 2014 12:59 PM  

Vidad;
View it as a lesson, and move on. I am also an INTJ (Pretty common here) and run into such issues on occasion. I suspect it comes from being part of a group, yet not being really "in" the group. You don't react the way the leader wants, and get viewed as a threat.

I have been blessed never to go through it at church, but I do know many who do.

Dh, the statement about food driving people crazy is something I noticed also. We allow our child to have cake, but only on special occasions. Sugar very rarely, and she eats her protein and veggies every meal. We also mainly eat meat from either hunting or from known family farmers. In other words, nothing to radical. I have been accused of being a traitor to society, hateful, and sexists (which I have yet to figure out what that has to do with anything). The only other thing that causes more angst is schooling. My daughter is going to a church school, and we have lost friends who say we HAVE to go to the big schools (with the weekly arrests for child molestation it seems) in order to validate their property taxes.

I find the whole thing odd.

Anonymous VD April 29, 2014 1:00 PM  

Is the uncle a Christian (and just really really wrong?) Then he is a brother in Christ who should not be completely shut out.

That's incorrect. Matthew 18:15-17

15 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Anonymous Vidad April 29, 2014 1:01 PM  

@ pancakeloach

Funny you should mention the OPC. That's exactly the church we attend now. Almost all homeschoolers, plus they're serious and intellectually minded believers.

@Vox

Yeah. I didn't ask for this and he cut us first. I'm inclined to agree. It's hard enough raising counter-culture (in the positive Civilizational sense) children without coming under attack as parents by close family. He actually told us that we should watch out for Child Services because of how we raise our children. I don't even want someone that thinks along those lines near our family. Bridge torched.

@Josh

Yeah. It wasn't our actions. I was nothing but "nice." Our existence is irritating, as is my desire for deeper theology than mo Churchianity.

Incidentally, if you met my wife, you'd find her to be the most anti-feminist, inoffensive and loving mother/wife you're likely to find. Yet she was also maligned repeatedly (behind her back, to me!).

I can handle personal insults. I'm used to them. But the digs on my wife and kids...

If my uncle wasn't so influential, I would have confronted him strongly and really went full-tilt. However, knowing his manipulative abilities, etc., plus his resources... I can't afford to mount a complete defense. So I listened at our last meeting, raised a few mild points, and walked out knowing there was nothing that could be done. I don't want him causing us direct harm.

Anonymous Vidad April 29, 2014 1:03 PM  

"You don't react the way the leader wants, and get viewed as a threat. "

Yes. I think that's it.

Anonymous jamsco April 29, 2014 1:04 PM  

"If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector."

Which means, he is not a Christian. Which means take him out of your church, or in Vidad's case, leave his church. This was a wise choice on Vidad's part, but (Vox) you don't have enough information to suggest that he should shut out the Uncle completely.

Anonymous VD April 29, 2014 1:07 PM  

This was a wise choice on Vidad's part, but (Vox) you don't have enough information to suggest that he should shut out the Uncle completely.

And how are pagans who don't listen to be treated, Jamsco? By walking away and wiping the dust from your sandals.

That is the correct thing to do. God lets those who choose Hell go to the devil. We should do likewise.

Anonymous Salt April 29, 2014 1:08 PM  

He actually told us that we should watch out for Child Services because of how we raise our children.

Red Flag!!! From what I gather is his POV, he could even be one to communicate with SS. For the children's sake.

Blogger rycamor April 29, 2014 1:11 PM  

@jamsco, ever the equivocator...
No, there is a time to call it quits. Cut the people out completely. If they ever feel shame from what they've done and desire to rebuild a relationship, the ball is in their court, and the bar should be set high. In other words, don't be fooled by an attempt on their part to re-negotiate the differences, or come up with some sort of 'deal'. It is all or nothing at that point.

Honestly, why waste time on people who are only tearing you down? It's not fair to your family, and it's not even fair to the other party. If they can't handle your presence; if it is your presence that tempts them to evil, remove yourself.

Blogger Markku April 29, 2014 1:11 PM  

Vidad's description sounds like a friggin' checklist of narcissistic personality disorder.

Anonymous jamsco April 29, 2014 1:15 PM  

"No, there is a time to call it quits."

I didn't say there wasn't a time for this. Vidad's latest comment suggests that this is a good time for it.

Also - where did I equivocate?

But, rycamore, I think you might be setting the bar too high.

Anonymous G April 29, 2014 1:21 PM  

There is one really good thing about these Witch Hunts by the Left --- and it's this:

A Night of Long Knives situation. Where one of these fags/commies ends up with a ice-pick in their brains as their prize for participating.

(Ask Ernst Röhm or Trotsky how the the story eventually ends...)

Anonymous Vidad April 29, 2014 1:21 PM  

@Marrku

Actually, another close family member told me it was totally NPD.

My fault, though. I missed the indicators because I wasn't really functioning on that emotional level and reading the signs. Totally was blindsided.

Anonymous Vidad April 29, 2014 1:22 PM  

Sorry, should have been Markku, not "Marrku."

I can't blame autocorrect because

A: I don't have it

and

B: Your name certainly isn't in it.

Blogger Markku April 29, 2014 1:24 PM  

I'd say that nothing would make him happier than seeing your children taken from you and given to pedophiles, and he WILL follow through.

OpenID cailcorishev April 29, 2014 1:26 PM  

Dh, the statement about food driving people crazy is something I noticed also.

The reigning anti-animal fat, pro-grain dogma is as deeply instilled in most people as any religion, and challenging it offends them just as much as any other blasphemy. If you say, "We use lard and butter and never buy soda or cereal," they hear, "Your faith in the healthiness of the food pyramid is misplaced and makes you a fool," whether you ever say it out loud or not.

Going to the trouble of avoiding the mainstream will always be interpreted as condemnation by those who stay in it, no matter how nicely you insist you don't mean it that way.

Anonymous Vidad April 29, 2014 1:28 PM  

"I'd say that nothing would make him happier than seeing your children taken from you and given to pedophiles, and he WILL follow through."

I'm not convinced he's that messed up. Shunning, perhaps... but direct malice of that level would mess with his view of himself as "shepherd."

Blogger Markku April 29, 2014 1:31 PM  

I'm not convinced he's that messed up. Shunning, perhaps... but direct malice of that level would mess with his view of himself as "shepherd."

Well, there's a great Finnish book about dealing with NPD people in spiritual authority (Naamiona terve mieli). It's so annoying that it hasn't been translated to English. However, based on it, I absolutely stay with my previous position.

Anonymous Vidad April 29, 2014 1:32 PM  

Also, Markku... don't even name that level of evil. I'm having a hard enough time as it is.

I know there are many possibilities, but I also just have to trust in God, the protector of my family and holder of my eternal soul.

Anonymous jamsco April 29, 2014 1:33 PM  

"And how are pagans who don't listen to be treated, Jamsco? By walking away and wiping the dust from your sandals."

Jesus never said, "And never go back."

One of the hopes of removing yourself from someone is that they might come to faith.

Blogger Markku April 29, 2014 1:35 PM  

Or, rather, the dealing-part is straightforward, and involves putting enough distance, preferably a few continents, between you and them. The important part is recognizing them, and understanding the lenghts that they will go to.

Anonymous Salt April 29, 2014 1:37 PM  

Agree with Markku.

but direct malice of that level would mess with his view of himself as "shepherd."

But, shepard he is and sometimes the sheep need a stern hand. The fact he'd even bring up SS is not a good thing. Means he's thought of it.

Blogger James Dixon April 29, 2014 1:39 PM  

> Should a christian ever put strategy ahead of character?

Is your life or that of someone else on the line? Is feeding your family on the line? If so, the answer become obvious. Peter was forgiven for denying Christ.

OpenID cailcorishev April 29, 2014 1:40 PM  

you don't have enough information to suggest that he should shut out the Uncle completely.

One thing: such shutting out doesn't necessarily have to be permanent. You may leave open the possibility that the person will see the error of his ways, apologize, and make any necessary restitution, at which point you may wish to let him back into your life on a probationary basis. But in the meantime, you've established that you've met your responsibility in the situation, and the ball is now in his court. The point is that you've drawn a line you won't cross. Too often people, especially nice guys, don't ever want to draw that line in ink because it feels like condemning someone forever, which doesn't feel very Christian. But letting people know when they've crossed a line and correcting them fraternally is Christian.

Although I'd say at the point where he threatens to call child services, things would move beyond calmly drawing a line and enter the stage of letting him know in no uncertain terms that doing so would bring a heap of trouble down on his head.

Anonymous Vidad April 29, 2014 1:43 PM  

@ Markku and Salt

Yeah. Definitely thought about it, then wondered if I was paranoid.

Got an available apartment that fits 6+ in Finland?

Of course, I could simply tell him he was totally right and I was totally wrong and that I'm so sorry I was so difficult... sob sob sob, scrape scrape scrape.

Blogger Markku April 29, 2014 1:44 PM  

Of course, I could simply tell him he was totally right and I was totally wrong and that I'm so sorry I was so difficult... sob sob sob, scrape scrape scrape.

Yep, that's what everyone else does, and hence they are left with the time and energy to go all the way with the few that don't. There is no form of evil that's beneath them. None.

Anonymous Michael Maier April 29, 2014 1:46 PM  

"The reigning anti-animal fat, pro-grain dogma is as deeply instilled in most people as any religion,"

No joke. I had a friend telling me animal fats are SO bad for me last Saturday.

Funny how my body odor, breath, sinuses (man I sure do miss those rancid tonsil stones!!!!!), headaches, tension, sleep and digestion are all much better the more I eat more naturallly-prepared food.

But I'm sure that's just coincidental...

@ Vidad: I am not certain I could ever give anyone the time of day ever again if they mentioned CPS in the same breath as my famliy.

That's literally a death threat, in my book. I really do not think someone could come back from that in my eyes, ever.

You might want to read up on William Grigg's CPS preparations. No joke.

Blogger Markku April 29, 2014 1:47 PM  

Not having children of my own, I'm not in a position to tell you that you should fight anyway. I might be thinking it, but I'm in no position of saying it.

Anonymous Josh April 29, 2014 1:49 PM  

Vidad, you said your uncle had a history of shunning folks. Did he ever do anything in retribution after the shunning? That would give you Intel about his next move.

Blogger Markku April 29, 2014 1:50 PM  

But this idea that he wouldn't do it, is what you must put to death immediately, and not even entertain it.

Anonymous Josh April 29, 2014 1:51 PM  

Vidad,

You said your uncle has a history of this type of behavior. Did he do anything to previous targets after the shunning?

Anonymous G April 29, 2014 1:52 PM  

It's your UNCLE. Not your kid. Not your parents. Not your grandparents. If your 2nd cousin runs over your dog and then curses you out, do you throw him a party? Quit being a doormat, dude. Last time, the Bible doesn't say DICK about uncles, aunties, cousins, etc.

Blogger Markku April 29, 2014 1:54 PM  

Full disclosure: I have a certified, clinically insane uncle who is such a master manipulator that it's almost otherwordly.

OpenID pancakeloach April 29, 2014 1:55 PM  

Funny you should mention the OPC. That's exactly the church we attend now. Almost all homeschoolers, plus they're serious and intellectually minded believers.

OPC, denomination of nerds. :D

That uncle sounds scary. Threatening to call CPS is basically a threat to kidnap your children. I'm not sure what steps one could take to mitigate that possibility, perhaps through the legal system, so that there would be a record of "hey, this guy is crazy and has an axe to grind for personal reasons, and he's threatened to misuse the government to do so."

Anonymous Vidad April 29, 2014 1:56 PM  

@Josh

No, not that I know of. Just a lot of backbiting and gossip about them behind their backs.

Anonymous Vidad April 29, 2014 1:57 PM  

He never actually threatened to call... just told me that we "might be at risk."

Blogger Markku April 29, 2014 1:57 PM  

I bet your farm is nice too, shame if something should happen to it.

Honest. A shame.

Anonymous jamsco April 29, 2014 1:58 PM  

"He never actually threatened to call... just told me that we "might be at risk."

Which is actually true, especially if you stayed at that church. Another good reason for you to have left.

Anonymous Vidad April 29, 2014 2:00 PM  

Perhaps I'll e-mail him and thank him for the advice on the kids, "though it was hard to hear," and tell him that we're working hard on "getting the house in nicer shape."

Blogger Markku April 29, 2014 2:01 PM  

Yeah, I can't really say what should be done in specific. I'm only saying that it would be the worst mistake of your life to just write that threat off.

Anonymous G April 29, 2014 2:02 PM  

For crying out loud Vidad, you don't owe this guy *crap.*

If he abused your kids would you sit there and take it?

Don't answer that question, we're already worried what you're going to say (Dear Lord!)

Anonymous Josh April 29, 2014 2:02 PM  

It wouldn't be a bad idea to have a mole inside that community.

But if his modus operandi has to isolate someone and shun them, but leave them alone once they've left, it looks like he's the kind of person who hates you as long as you're in his circle, but doesn't do much once you're outside of it.

Anonymous Vidad April 29, 2014 2:07 PM  

@G

Hell no. But I also don't want to deal with greater threats than simple shunning if there's a way to avoid it.

This isn't an honest or fair world. Used to be a simple duel could resolve things. Now you go to prison for defending yourself when you're demonstrably not the aggressor.

I would take a bullet for my children but I have no idea how to deal with potential giant institutional threats.

Anonymous Bz April 29, 2014 2:08 PM  

Ugh. Really sounds like it's a good time to start building your defense on that uncle and church (rule 4). Just in case.

Anonymous G April 29, 2014 2:10 PM  

WTF? Are you Amish? Not shunning, just ignoring. Stop answering his calls or emails. If he asks, say you've been "busy." In the real world, this actually happens. This isn't rocket surgery. Or move to a new town. You live in a weird little world.

Blogger Tom Kratman April 29, 2014 2:11 PM  

One addendum, or perhaps corrolary: If at all possible, take someone from the mob down with you. The threat tends to reduce, at least marginally, the numbers and enthusiasm of futrure mobs. It is also immensely satifying.

Anonymous Bz April 29, 2014 2:14 PM  

Btw, I like that the rules here sort of speed walk you through the denial/anger/bargaining/depression steps when you get hunted. Far better than being stunned and unprepared, which is just the way they would like you to be.

Anonymous Vidad April 29, 2014 2:17 PM  

@G

I was talking about his shunning me, not vice-versa.

Calm down. Breathe.

We have considered moving. I like moving anyhow. It gives me a chance to test plant species in new climates.

Blogger Chiva April 29, 2014 2:17 PM  

Keep your head up Vidad. Your are doing the right thing.

My family was "pushed" out of a church by a person I once thought a friend (the pastor). We also had threats over our children because we were not mainstream (we home-schooled). My wife and I were very concerned and afraid about the threats, but they turned out to be nothing.
The best advice I can give you is to hold your children close, and your wife closer. Don't hold a grudge and move on.

In time (if not already) forgive and pray for you uncle. I've found that God really does listen.

Blogger Nate April 29, 2014 2:20 PM  

"We were the only large family. We homeschooled. We didn't let the children eat garbage food like cake... and apparently, that made us offensive."

... Did you start ranting about steeples being pagan fallic symbols again?

Anonymous G April 29, 2014 2:23 PM  

Yeah, I'd run move away from the weird little town and weird little cult you got yourself mixed up with. There's a big world out there beyond the Cousin Eddies, if you can believe it.

Anonymous Vidad April 29, 2014 2:25 PM  

"Did you start ranting about steeples being pagan fallic symbols again?"

Fortunately there wasn't a steeple there or I might not have been able to restrain myself. Heck, I almost convinced you, right?

"Fallic." Hehheh.

Blogger Markku April 29, 2014 2:26 PM  

Is it almost time for....

Anklebiter bingo?

Anonymous Josh April 29, 2014 2:27 PM  

There is always the possibility that "G" is just some stupid teenager.

Blogger Nate April 29, 2014 2:29 PM  

"Fortunately there wasn't a steeple there or I might not have been able to restrain myself. Heck, I almost convinced you, right?"

no.

And STFU about the spelling. its a small mind that can only imagine one way to spell a word.

Anonymous G April 29, 2014 2:31 PM  

We know Josh has a thing for his uncle's steeple.

Blogger Markku April 29, 2014 2:31 PM  

Possibilities, yes. Possibilities.

That's what makes it exciting.

Anonymous RedJack April 29, 2014 2:31 PM  

Markku and Vidad,

My mom has NPD. Bad. If your uncle has it,and has "suggested" that CPS might be called, you need to get ready now.

First step though is totally remove yourself from him, and any contacts he has. If he doesn't "see" you, you don't exist to him. People with NPD need to control the situation around them, and be the center of attention. If you are not involved with anything connected to him, he may forget about you.

My only concern is that this is close family. Short of getting out of the state, you probably have other family who talks to him and you. As a result, your uncle may decide to destroy you, in order to prove a point.

Get some legal council. Something as simple as just deciding what lawyer to use is a good start. Also, if your children are old enough, ask them about their uncle. Even if he doesn't send CPS after you, he may be targeting them for his own ends.

Again, my mom has NPD. It has hurt my family to the point where my sisters are on opposite coasts from them, and I only go home for Thanksgiving and Deer season. If you and your wife had no kids, it would be easier, but your uncle obviously knows how to go after you.

Anonymous Vidad April 29, 2014 2:31 PM  

I can imagine many ways to spell words. I just try to stick to ones that have been generally codified.

And speaking of small minds... c'mon, man... steeples. Steeples. Think about them. Steeples.

Creepy.

Blogger Nate April 29, 2014 2:34 PM  

Vidad... out of site out of mind. Pretend he doesn't exist. In his mind he probably considers you some kind of embarrassment. Now that you're not coming around he's probably quite happy with things. make sure you have HSLDF number near the door... maybe put up a fence and a drive way gate so you have some warning if someone comes by that shouldn't. Go over the plan with your wife so she knows exactly what to do if something happens.

And if it turns out you need to move... well... I hear Costa Rica is nice this time of year... actually... all times of the year.

Blogger Nate April 29, 2014 2:35 PM  

"And speaking of small minds... c'mon, man... steeples. Steeples. Think about them. Steeples.

Creepy."

Steeples are not creepy. Steeples are what churches have. Churches without steeples are generally speaking... cultish little hell holes dominated by pathological narcissists.

Anonymous Sensei April 29, 2014 2:41 PM  

No joke. I had a friend telling me animal fats are SO bad for me last Saturday.

Funny how my body odor, breath, sinuses (man I sure do miss those rancid tonsil stones!!!!!), headaches, tension, sleep and digestion are all much better the more I eat more naturallly-prepared food.

But I'm sure that's just coincidental...


Animal fat is bad, because "most health experts" say so, today. If they change their minds tomorrow, animal fat will have always been good for you, and no, they don't know what you're talking about when you remind them that yesterday their answer was different, and can't you just listen to the people who obviously know what they're talking about or they wouldn't be consulted?

Like homeschooling, it is 0% about reality and results, and 100% about you submitting to the same dubious and unqualified authorities from whom they take their worldview marching orders. No independent thought required, or permitted.

Anonymous Josh April 29, 2014 2:44 PM  

G,

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

The grownups are speaking.

Blogger Markku April 29, 2014 2:46 PM  

Am I to understand that you have put your stakes on the random teenager hypothesis, Josh?

Anonymous Josh April 29, 2014 2:48 PM  

Given that his first response after that hypothesis was to make a gay joke, I'm leaning toward it.

Hypothesis, prediction, observation, we are doing science.

Anonymous the bandit April 29, 2014 2:54 PM  

Perhaps I'll e-mail him and thank him for the advice on the kids, "though it was hard to hear," and tell him that we're working hard on "getting the house in nicer shape."

I'm no expert, but I think that would keep you on his radar and also be effectively handing ammo to him to take to CPS. It'd be hard to explain later that, no, you didn't think his advice was any good, and that the house has always been perfectly safe, when they have it in writing you saying something else.

Blogger Karl April 29, 2014 3:01 PM  

OT - Kluwe on Sterling:

Chris Kluwe ‏@ChrisWarcraft 32m
You know what would be a better ban for Sterling? A ban from society. Like, no one interacts with him until he figures out empathy.

Chris Kluwe ‏@ChrisWarcraft 31m
I'm talking, no one takes his money, sells him anything - nothing. Let's see how racist he is when he can't buy food.

Chris Kluwe ‏@ChrisWarcraft 30m
And yes, I know that's a pipe dream, but it would certainly be nice. Maybe one day.

Blogger rycamor April 29, 2014 3:01 PM  

Nate April 29, 2014 2:35 PM
"And speaking of small minds... c'mon, man... steeples. Steeples. Think about them. Steeples.

Creepy."

Steeples are not creepy. Steeples are what churches have. Churches without steeples are generally speaking... cultish little hell holes dominated by pathological narcissists.


Y'know Nate, I was having a conversation with Vidad on this very topic a few days ago. The church in general has a problem with pathological narcissists. I have been member of many churches, from the very small and informal to the fairly large mainliners. One conclusion I have come to is that--while they are all fraught with this peril--the two extremes are the safest. Large, formal denominations with established customs and prescribed roles can mitigate these dangers, as can extremely small, unpretentions and informal ones such as the New Testament churches. In the first case, because if people have prescribed roles and behaviors, it is easy to see when someone deviates. In the second case, small unpretentious groups who meet in a living room don't attract the narcissists, since they want a platform where everyone is looking at them.

It's the ones in the middle (in terms of formality and rigour) that seem to be the most vulnerable. I've seen it time and again, especially when the small informal ones expand and start deciding they need a building, and a full-time pastor, etc...

Anonymous Skindeep April 29, 2014 3:06 PM  

What a bunch of crap. Vox, you acted like an asshole and were treated accordingly. Thats all.

Anonymous Josh April 29, 2014 3:09 PM  

I agree with rycamor's conclusion.

Another thing to look for is how many leadership changes the church has gone through. If the current pastor is not the founder, that means they've gone through at least one major transition without collapsing.

Anonymous Josh April 29, 2014 3:18 PM  

Skindeep,

Are you saying that assholes should be expelled from the SFWA?

Anonymous rycamor April 29, 2014 3:19 PM  

@Vidad,

Answer your damn phone. And clear your voicemail messages.

Blogger JartStar April 29, 2014 3:21 PM  

Vidad,

Was there a formal church meeting asking you to leave? And when I mean formal I mean you are called in with witnesses and Elders in the church who make concrete charges that you are acting sinfully and/or in a way which is deleterious to the church?

Anonymous Stilicho April 29, 2014 3:34 PM  

Agree with Markku.

but direct malice of that level would mess with his view of himself as "shepherd."

But, shepard he is and sometimes the sheep need a stern hand. The fact he'd even bring up SS is not a good thing. Means he's thought of it.


Exactly. Anyone who would make that suggestion is likely to see himself as "helping" you and your children through such a vile action.

Anonymous RC April 29, 2014 3:34 PM  

"We were the only large family. We homeschooled. We didn't let the children eat garbage food like cake... and apparently, that made us offensive." - Vidad

This has been a fascinating dynamic in our experience as well. Merely choosing to live your life and direct your family in a particular way offends others who've chosen the conventional path. There is quite a correlation too: faith, vaccines, healthy foods, size of family, entertainment, education choices - as one peels the onion and starts one down the logical path, it all but demands certain decisions be made and adopted, at least in my life.

Strange. We find ourselves living in a foreign country despite the fact we were born here.

Anonymous kawaika April 29, 2014 3:41 PM  

This is a very good list. The only thing I'd add to the first point concerns ambushing. They always try to catch you off guard so you have to understand that any change in your schedule is bad. You must find a way to fight the battle on your own grounds. In my case, I had a meeting after a long shift. Because my shift was technically over, I could have postponed the meeting, but I didn't. I regret it. I might not have won, but at least it would have made things more difficult. Try to postpone, evade, etc. any way you reasonably can. You will need time to think about how to react and they will try their hardest to keep that from happening.

Vidad, don't ever email that guy suggesting in any way that you are acceding. It will be twisted all out of proportion. I did something similar. Nothing bad happened, but I saw immediately it was a mistake. Don't ever give any ground. I was trying to be honest about it, not thinking about the strategy. That is a serious mistake. If you are not dealing with a supervisor or client, or someone you absolutely have to correspond with, then why do it?

Anonymous bob k. mando April 29, 2014 3:45 PM  

Chris Kluwe ‏@ChrisWarcraft 31m
I'm talking, no one takes his money, sells him anything - nothing. Let's see how racist he is when he can't buy food.



errrrm.

how would refusing to take money from or do business WITH A JEW not run afoul of anti-discrimination laws ...

you dumbfuck.


otoh, Donald Sterling is one of the innumerable self confessed racist People of Color. he's Semitic, you see.




Skindeep April 29, 2014 3:06 PM
Vox, you acted like an asshole and were treated accordingly. Thats all.



violating corporate bylaws and making secret expulsions is how you treat people you don't like? interesting.

i don't think we have any doubts about which side of this Munroe would be on, but this is apropos:
http://xkcd.com/1357/


how bout this? we won't buy YOUR shit and you won't buy OUR shit and we'll all live happily ever after.




JartStar April 29, 2014 3:21 PM
Was there a formal church meeting asking you to leave?



formal and biblical church discipline would interfere with the uncle's absolute and unfettered authority.

clearly, this is not a biblical church. and, sad to say, vidad was in error to have continued attending it.

Blogger Markku April 29, 2014 3:50 PM  

That is a serious mistake. If you are not dealing with a supervisor or client, or someone you absolutely have to correspond with, then why do it?

Well, the CPS threat, especially considering the likelihood of them ending up as sex slaves, is much bigger threat than any other. Now, I'm not saying whether this is the thing to do or not, but that WOULD be the reason for why what would be cowardice in any other situation, is an option.

Again, I don't know if this is the right strategy. Total and absolute radio silence might well be better.

Blogger Nate April 29, 2014 3:51 PM  

"The church in general has a problem with pathological narcissists. I have been member of many churches, from the very small and informal to the fairly large mainliners. One conclusion I have come to is that--while they are all fraught with this peril--the two extremes are the safest"

Indeed. One of the reasons I set aside the many faults of the UMC is system it has to deal with this sort of thing. ministers are assigned by the conference. They move around to much to become anything like power brokers... but at the same time they serve as a check to the lay people that would like to set up their own little fiefdom.

I mock the bureaucracy of the church but it is there for a reason and while it causes other problems... it does effectively address the problem it was intended to address.

Anonymous Razoraid April 29, 2014 4:22 PM  

The idiocy of what our world has become astounds me... stay vigilant friends, stupidity surrounds us.

Anonymous Vidad April 29, 2014 4:36 PM  

JartStar: "Was there a formal church meeting asking you to leave?"

No. It was a "you need to be fully in or fully out" conversation, after a time of subtle pressure along with random digs. When I decided on the "out" option... the ice showed up.

Anonymous rycamor April 29, 2014 4:37 PM  

Nate April 29, 2014 3:51 PM

Indeed. One of the reasons I set aside the many faults of the UMC is system it has to deal with this sort of thing. ministers are assigned by the conference. They move around to much to become anything like power brokers... but at the same time they serve as a check to the lay people that would like to set up their own little fiefdom.


Yes. One of the things I like about the Plymouth Brethren (the church I grew up with) is that they managed a bit of both. The congregations were extremely small and often house-based, but they still had a bureaucracy and a sense of order. Which I mocked as a callow youth, but have grown to see its wisdom. There were elders and deacons, but there was never a central "pastor". There were many circuit preachers who would rotate into town for a couple weeks for the "Family Bible Hour" service, and perhaps to preside over a few evening bible studies, but in the end there was no cult of personality.

The Brethren, however, succumed to the other sort of witch hunt, which is the type Vox addresses above. Not the machinations of a personality, but the huddled whisperings of rabbits trying to figure out how to deal with one who doesn't conform. There is a long history of splits between the "open" and the "closed" Brethren, and all sorts of sub-splits over various miniscule doctrinal differences. When I was a toddler, my own father was forced out of the "closed" group for having unbecoming opinions of other Christians (IE, that we might perchance be able to fellowship with them). He followed Vox's list above fairly well, actually. No apologies, no retractions, no resignation. The elders kept trying to meet with him to convince him to leave the church of his own accord, and he held firm, forcing them to take the step of excommunicating him. He then went on to a long careef of saving souls and planting churches in South America.

Blogger Kentucky Packrat April 29, 2014 4:40 PM  

I took Milady home to visit my parents and grandparents one weekend, and she got upset at me for being "too hateful" with my living grandfather. "You don't understand. He is thinking he can get a little toe-hold on our lives here. That has to be stomped out immediately." Within a couple of months, she not only came to agree with me, but was more ruthless (in a loving way) than I ever was with them.

My grandparents were borderline NPD, and couldn't be given an inch of control. My parents are better, but we still had to draw a line in the sand with them, and had to quit talking to them once. I still make sure that my sister takes advantage of any family benefits much more than I do, so that I can watch the "owe me"s later.

Vilad, I suggest passive disengagement with your uncle. Miss his calls. If someone else in the community or the family says something about you leaving the cult, grin and shrug. Amplify and redirect, if need be. If you're more trouble than you're worth, you'll fall off his radar.

Anonymous Salt April 29, 2014 4:45 PM  

When I decided on the "out" option... the ice showed up.

Of course. Who could ever want to not be a part of the wonderful them?

Anonymous Peter April 29, 2014 4:45 PM  

7. "Take from them everything and give them nothing. THIS. IS. SFWA!!!!!!!"

@dh: host your project on a server located in Carjackistan, i.e., some place that doesn't have any agreements with US law concerning copyright/privacy. Yes, they may hate you, but they hate Teh Gummint more, so use that. Also, communicate the site by IP addy (the numbers) so that you can change the title at will (Whatever Wiki? The Rabbit Warren? heh)

@Vidad: what your uncle did was a direct threat and should be treated as such. I'm what is known in the gunnysphere are a "Second Amendment Hardass" and during one debate, an opponent 'suggested' psychiatric intervention. I didn't react at the time, except to invite that guy for coffee: no witnesses and no recording in a neutral place. I then leaned across the table and informed him that he had better make sure that whatever he got me locked up for had a term of life without parole because I would burn his house down with him in it, even if that cost me my life. He then avoided me like the plague and later on, moved away. Some things do not justify turning the other cheek.

Blogger Outlaw X April 29, 2014 4:52 PM  

Perhaps I'll e-mail him and thank him for the advice on the kids, "though it was hard to hear," and tell him that we're working hard on "getting the house in nicer shape."

Don't you dare do it. The CPS comment wasn't a suggestion it was a threat. You do not let anyone threaten your family ever. I would have told him "If you ever threaten me or my children again you won't see the next sunrise." That is the way and the attitude I was brought up with here in Texas. Vidad, he was threatening you, better get it through your skull. You were blindsided once, this time it won't be a stupid church building it will be your children.

Blogger Outlaw X April 29, 2014 5:32 PM  

No. It was a "you need to be fully in or fully out" conversation, after a time of subtle pressure along with random digs. When I decided on the "out" option... the ice showed up.

That is not a church or family, that is a cult. Look up cults 101 and think about everything that was done to you.

Anonymous Obvious April 29, 2014 6:20 PM  

Hmmmm.

None of these things seemed to work for Donald Sterling.

Anonymous Salt April 29, 2014 6:31 PM  

Perhaps I'll e-mail him and thank him for the advice on the kids, "though it was hard to hear," and tell him that we're working hard on "getting the house in nicer shape."

"getting the house in nicer shape", that's ammo which can be twisted. Don't.

Anonymous patrick kelly April 29, 2014 6:38 PM  

"None of these things seemed to work for Donald Sterling."

Donald Sterling seemed to not attempt any of them.....

Anonymous kawaika April 29, 2014 6:49 PM  

I don't know if this is the right strategy.

Anything that involves recorded admissions of wrongdoing, no matter how slight, is completely wrong. It will be used. If this guy has evidence of wrongdoing let him show it.

I would not communicate with this guy unless I absolutely had to.

I was once in a situation where I had to stay near a manipulator who was trying to get me to reveal information I could not legally share. I was stunned at how skilled this person was. I actually wanted to talk to this person, but I knew the more I said about unrelated topics the more likely I would disclose information this person was really seeking.

You know this guy's motives are not good, so why talk to him? Especially if it's recorded. Nothing good can possibly come from it.

Blogger Markku April 29, 2014 6:51 PM  

You know this guy's motives are not good, so why talk to him? Especially if it's recorded

Ostensibly to not telegraph your plan to remove yourself from his sphere of influence before your plan comes fully together.

Blogger Vidad April 29, 2014 6:56 PM  

Thank you, kawaika, Markku, Outlaw, etc. You've given me plenty to ponder.

Please pray for me.

Blogger Beau April 29, 2014 7:05 PM  

Please pray for me.

Yup

Blogger Outlaw X April 29, 2014 7:43 PM  

Thank you, kawaika, Markku, Outlaw, etc. You've given me plenty to ponder.

Please pray for me.


Vidad I'll mention you tonight in by bedtime bland non elaborate prayers. But I'll tell you as the phrase I coined. "God may provide but he does not make your breakfast."

The next move is up to you, not God, he will help you but you gat to sow to reap. Vegetable gardens don't magically appear in your back yard from God, they come about from the sweat of your brow with his help. Get as far away from this asshole as you can. I did it to one of my family members and I broke a few noses, literally, in my life. This Christian charity stuff only goes so far, and I am sorry to say your uncle is not a Christian anyway from your side of the story. I have got the opportunity to talk to you because of Nate and know enough that you are a good man, now forget the "good" and be the man that you are. God expects it of you. It's on you.

Anonymous Josh April 29, 2014 8:00 PM  

Praying for you vidad

Blogger Under Par April 29, 2014 8:04 PM  

Vidad - I've been a VP lurker since day one (yes, as in 2003) but this is the first time I've commented. I agree with VD's recommendation of severing ties with your uncle. It's necessary from a strategy perspective for many reasons. One thing I would add is that it's also the right thing to do from a moral or spiritual perspective.

Your uncle is committing some pretty egregious sin. The sin is the thing with which you cannot agree. It's not a personal thing against your uncle himself so much as it's an unwillingness to agree with the sin he's committing. The sin is the problem, not you. I also agree with Daniel's advice of reminding yourself of this regularly.

A final thought is to apologize for nothing. When you stand before our Lord there will be no blood on your hands.

Blogger Under Par April 29, 2014 8:08 PM  

And yes, I'll obviously be praying for you and your family.

Blogger Double Minded Man April 29, 2014 8:21 PM  

I had an HR Rep try to fire me over an off the clock conversation about religion that I had with a person who had asked me to have the conversation with him. And I had thought that he was off the clock as well. As the story goes, he and another guy were discussing it, and someone else (unnamed of course) got offended over it, and so of course the answer was to fire me.

So I got pulled into the office and spent maybe an hour in there with him trying to get me to admit that perhaps in some way I had violated the code of conduct. I held my ground and didn't give in, and certainly didn't admit to anything. Kept my job. Only now I hated it even more than I had before.

Blogger Markku April 29, 2014 8:24 PM  

Excellent job, DMM. Or... well, you know which job I mean...

Anonymous Vidad April 29, 2014 8:37 PM  

@Under Par

Thank you. And others, for the prayer.

Anonymous Clearly, I'm the devil, and not just someone pointing out your faults.... April 29, 2014 8:51 PM  

Wow, Beau is going to ostentaiously pray for someone? Who would have thought??? You should feel honored.

Blogger Markku April 29, 2014 8:56 PM  

So, Beau's prayer was the one that stung. Yeah, that figures.

Blogger Outlaw X April 29, 2014 8:56 PM  

Wow, Beau is going to ostentaiously pray for someone? Who would have thought??? You should feel honored.

Why don't you go piss up a rope with your moth open. It would serve a better purpose for your friking mouth.

Anonymous Giraffe April 29, 2014 9:15 PM  

Beau would pray for you, too, if you'd ask, and maybe if you don't.

Anonymous kh123 April 29, 2014 9:22 PM  

"Yeah, that figures."

It will probably ask next why not launch off the roof, since God is all powerful. Because a 166 IQ is that sharp.

Anonymous Bart April 29, 2014 9:26 PM  

Here in Roswell nm we have a prayer meeting going on now. We pray for all who need it and for those who think they don't. God says to pray one for another.

Anonymous Bart April 29, 2014 9:31 PM  

Matt:18:19 Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in Heaven.

Anonymous Beau April 29, 2014 9:38 PM  

If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

Father, give Vidad extraordinary wisdom to provide and protect his family. Guard them, let the love they have for each other be evident to all. Protect them in Jesus' name.

Blogger mmaier2112 April 29, 2014 9:39 PM  

Vidad April 29, 2014 6:56 PM

Thank you, kawaika, Markku, Outlaw, etc. You've given me plenty to ponder.

Please pray for me.



Done and done, sir. Watch your six, Six. Or is it Seven? :)

And may our Good and Merciful God open your uncle's eyes.

Blogger Tommy Hass April 29, 2014 9:40 PM  

"It's your UNCLE. Not your kid. Not your parents. Not your grandparents."

This is why the west is doomed.

Anonymous Beau April 29, 2014 9:46 PM  

Heavenly Father, thanks for the privilege of being the recipient of Clearly, I'm the devil, and not just someone pointing out your faults....'s scorn. Bless this person abundantly this week. Let 'em enjoy clarity of mind, purity of heart, and warm fellowship. In Jesus' name. Amen.

Anonymous Beau April 29, 2014 9:54 PM  

Lord Jesus, I lift up the Dread ilk wherever they may be. Give them the same boldness Saint Paul prayed for in his epistles. Let them shine bright in dark places. Let us be the salt of the earth in this generation.

Thank you for pastor Saeed Abedini's Easter letter smuggled out of Iran. Bless him, his family, and those believers who suffer for proclaiming faith in you around the world.

Anonymous Lana April 29, 2014 10:59 PM  

If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

Father, give Vidad extraordinary wisdom to provide and protect his family. Guard them, let the love they have for each other be evident to all. Protect them in Jesus' name.


Praying this also for you, Vidad. Thanks Beau for just the right words. Amen.

Anonymous MendoScot April 29, 2014 11:06 PM  

Rycamor
The elders kept trying to meet with him to convince him to leave the church of his own accord, and he held firm, forcing them to take the step of excommunicating him. He then went on to a long careef of saving souls and planting churches in South America.


Insert Asia in place of SA and add; and then he was invited back to explain where they went wrong in the first place and you pretty much have the story of my father.

Vidad
I would take a bullet for my children but I have no idea how to deal with potential giant institutional threats.


By knowing their methods. Any bureaucracy is going to have to tick off and check the lines. Find out what the rules are in your area, and then deploy them accordingly. For example:

Yes Sir/Ma'am. We were worried about the kids. They weren't happy.

No we didn't know why. They are usually so happy but then...

No. I don't want to make accusations.

After we seperated from that group they were much happier.


I don't know your situation, Vidad, but how much of the above would be true?

These people have their own agendas, they are not powers summoned by your uncle under his own authority.

Our prayers will be with you.

Before my Lord, curse those who harm our children. Break them Lord. Break those who protect them. Let them know Who rules on high; where the land divides from the sea; the earth from the sky; the law from the lawless.

Amen

Blogger Zimri April 30, 2014 12:33 AM  

" The choices will pleasantly surprise you about as often as they disappoint you."

I learnt this during the Rushdie affair. Was pleasantly surprised by Susan Sontag and Chris Hitchens. Was disappointed by Paul Johnson, the Archbishop of Canterbury (shouldn't have been) and Roald Dahl.

Anonymous rho April 30, 2014 3:05 AM  

What is this, a VoxDay prayer circle?

Vidad, self-examination is critical to Christian belief. If you have followed Christ to the best of your abilities, and to the extents of your strength, then be content.

Anonymous Luke April 30, 2014 3:28 AM  

Related piece on SunshineMary's blog (minor blog by Christian woman who frequently posts on Dalrock's site and is mostly sympathetic to men's rights issues):

http://sunshinemaryandthedragon.wordpress.com/2014/03/23/trashing-the-destructive-behavior-of-women-in-groups/

Excerpts (<1/3 of the OP):

"What is “trashing,” this colloquial term that expresses so much, yet explains so little? It is not disagreement; it is not conflict; it is not opposition. These are perfectly ordinary phenomena which, when engaged in mutually, honestly, and not excessively, are necessary to keep an organism or organization healthy and active. Trashing is a particularly vicious form of character assassination which amounts to psychological rape. It is manipulative, dishonest, and excessive. It is occasionally disguised by the rhetoric of honest conflict, or covered up by denying that any disapproval exists at all. But it is not done to expose disagreements or resolve differences. It is done to disparage and destroy.

The means vary. Trashing can be done privately or in a group situation; to one’s face or behind one’s back; through ostracism or open denunciation. The trasher may give you false reports of what (horrible things) others think of you; tell your friends false stories of what you think of them; interpret whatever you say or do in the most negative light; project unrealistic expectations on you so that when you fail to meet them, you become a “legitimate” target for anger; deny your perceptions of reality; or pretend you don’t exist at all. Trashing may even be thinly veiled by the newest group techniques of criticism/self-criticism, mediation, and therapy. Whatever methods are used, trashing involves a violation of one’s integrity, a declaration of one’s worthlessness, and an impugning of one’s motives. In effect, what is attacked is not one’s actions, or one’s ideas, but one’s self.

Although only a few women actually engage in trashing, the blame for allowing it to continue rests with us all. Once under attack, there is little a woman can do to defend herself because she is by definition always wrong. But there is a great deal that those who are watching can do to prevent her from being isolated and ultimately destroyed. Trashing only works well when its victims are alone, because the essence of trashing is to isolate a person and attribute a group’s problems to her. Support from others cracks this facade and deprives the trashers of their audience. It turns a rout into a struggle. Many attacks have been forestalled by the refusal of associates to let themselves be intimidated into silence out of fear that they would be next. Other attackers have been forced to clarify their complaints to the point where they can be rationally dealt with.

Trashing involves heavy use of the verb “to be” and only a light use of the verb “to do.” It is what one is and not what one does that is objected to, and these objections cannot be easily phrased in terms of specific undesirable behaviors. Trashers also tend to use nouns and adjectives of a vague and general sort to express their objections to a particular person. These terms carry a negative connotation, but don’t really tell you what’s wrong. That is left to your imagination. Those being trashed can do nothing right. Because they are bad, their motives are bad, and hence their actions are always bad. There is no making up for past mistakes, because these are perceived as symptoms and not mistakes."


Anonymous Luke April 30, 2014 3:57 AM  

Partially on topic; one conservative Christian's relatively novel rhetorical defense against hate mail:

http://newswithviews.com/Daubenmire/dave342.htm

Excerpt:

"Some of the most intolerant people I have ever met are the ones who scream the loudest about the need for Christians to be tolerant.

It seems as if they want us to hold to certain Christian beliefs and behaviors, but only the ones that they deem we should follow.

Have you ever noticed this? The big-government social justice crowd loves to laud the fact that government should adhere to the Biblical belief that the poor need to be taken care of. I often hear from them. “Coach Dave, as a Christian you should be concerned about the poor.”

I am concerned about the poor. I just happen to think it is the job of the individual Christian and the collective churches to do the job, not the government. “It is not the government’s right to take from one person and give to another. If I did it in my personal life they would charge me with stealing.

Forcefully taking from one, (government) and giving to another, (welfare) violates the 10 Commandments.

We do it all the time…permit the progressives to use the Bible to force us to violate our conscience. You see, there are certain Christian behaviors that they want us to follow and certain ones they don’t want us to follow.

The Bible very clearly teaches that homosexual sodomy is a sin. But the libs will tell me that I am “not supposed to judge.” Calling homosexuality sinful, according to them, is not a very Christian thing to do. Christians are to love and forgive, they tell me.

Can’t you see the trick? They have mastered using the Bible to guilt-trip us into accepting things that the Bible calls sinful. Sodomy is good. Speaking against it is bad. My calling homosexuality sin is “judgmental.” Them calling me “judgmental” is not judgmental.

I have come up with a response that really ticks the libs off and you have my permission to use it. Here is it is, but let me warn you, it really pisses them off. Use at your own risk.

“I’m sorry, but I was born this way.”

Because of what I do my inbox is often filled with rants from those who do not appreciate what I say. They hate the logic that I use. Most libs have no logic, only feelings.

Unfortunately, the government has adopted the same tactics. Have you ever seen anything like the name calling that elected officials are doing in regards to citizens they are sworn to represent? They are the ones who are the bullies. They are the ones who are intolerant. They are the ones trying to force US to change.

So, let’s throw the argument right back at them. I was born this way…I can’t change. Why are you so judgmental of me and what I believe? Why is it that Christians are the only one’s expected to change what they believe?

I will never accept a woman’s “right” to choose. I will never accept the “right” for a man to marry a man. I will never accept an individual’s “right” to healthcare, a job, or an Obamaphone. I will never accept the opinions of the Supreme Court over the opinion of the Supreme Being.

You don’t like what I say? You don’t like the way I think? You don’t think my attitudes are very “Christian?” Well, who are you to judge, partner?

I’m sorry, but I was born this way."

Anonymous Idle Spectator April 30, 2014 5:24 AM  

Vidad's description sounds like a friggin' checklist of narcissistic personality disorder.

I got that impression too.

Exactly. Anyone who would make that suggestion is likely to see himself as "helping" you and your children through such a vile action

That sounds exactly like a narcissist. See how wonderful and helpful they are? And by implication, you are not.

Narcissists are the original Concern Trolls.

Y'know Nate, I was having a conversation with Vidad on this very topic a few days ago. The church in general has a problem with pathological narcissists.

They are always drawn to any position of power.

My mom has NPD. Bad. If your uncle has it,and has "suggested" that CPS might be called, you need to get ready now.

Agreed.

First step though is totally remove yourself from him, and any contacts he has. If he doesn't "see" you, you don't exist to him. People with NPD need to control the situation around them, and be the center of attention. If you are not involved with anything connected to him, he may forget about you.

That will only work with normal NPD. If you have a malignant narcissist on hand, you better be ready to be fucking Van Helsing about to stab a vampire bitch in the kidneys.

Anonymous Michael April 30, 2014 12:00 PM  

Everybody needs to take a hard, unified stand against the rampant PC Marxism that's infesting western society like the plague. Do not conform, do NOT comply and never be afraid to confront the wicked. As Christians, we are a people of hope, called to be witnesses to the truth. Contrary to what the wicked progressive-communists want you to believe, all is not lost. Fight back!

Blogger Brad Andrews April 30, 2014 12:23 PM  

I would definitely leave the area if you could Vidad. We went through a great deal of hell when we shifted from being ideal parents for adopting a sibling group of 4 from the system to being wicked, evil people in the eyes of many as our children grew and started lying about us (me especially). Not the exact same as your situation and we were likely not as strict as you are, but providing firm rules, boundaries and limiting things got many to think we were far too controlling. I would strongly encourage you to find good legal representation now, just in case. Those you think will support you likely will not if/when they get swayed by someone else.

In our case the first part was a pastor and his wife we were completely open about our rising challenges with who (the wife) proclaimed "she didn't know who to believe" with respect to our children. She bought our daughter's lies in reality, because we were a firm family. They poisoned the well in several churches we attended after that.

They remain my children, but 3 have completely turned their backs on us and the other one expects me to let him lead.

I know God is good and will not stray from that, but things like this can shake it. I would move a fair distance now if I could, but finances are keeping that from happening.

Move if you can and get out of the toxic environment you describe.

(All our children are adults now, so we are in a very different stage of life.)

Blogger Brad Andrews April 30, 2014 12:28 PM  

Sorry to stray into personal details too much. Your story sounded far too similar, even though you seem to have a different situation. Never underestimate the harm "helpful" outsiders can do. CPS is not there to help anyone.

Children stuck in that system are truly messed over. Dangerous to set foot in there and everyone should watch out for calls to be involved, even from Christian organizations.)

Post a Comment

NO ANONYMOUS COMMENTS. Anonymous comments will be deleted.

Links to this post:

Create a Link

<< Home

Newer Posts Older Posts