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Saturday, April 05, 2014

Under a Pale Moon

I got rid of Mozilla Firefox yesterday and replaced it with Pale Moon. Verdict: I probably would have done this for technological reasons, not ideological reasons, if I had known about Pale Moon before. Basically, it feels about 10-15 percent faster than Firefox, which has become increasingly crufty over the last few years and was offering new beta updates literally every week.

The installation process was two-part, the first being the usual download and install, the second being the download of the bookmarks importation tool that also migrated my various preferences and passwords. A little clunky, but no bother, and everything works, including NoScript. After about 2 hours, I was confident enough in Pale Moon to go ahead and remove Firefox from the system. If you are considering #uninstallfirefox, Pale Moon is definitely a preferred alternative if you are on Windows.

Plus I am amused by the fact that there are no plans for a Mac version. The developers are open to Linux, but Macintosh. No. Just no. Also, Linux users should note that Pale Moon runs under WINE; due to its superior speed and efficiency emulated Pale Moon may well run better than native Firefox.

For Android, I'm using Opera Mini for now, but I'm not particularly fond of it, so further investigation is required. I'm also going to start looking for a Thunderbird replacement.

NB: The all-time percentage of Firefox is 34 percent here and 30 percent at Alpha Game. It's already down to 28 percent here and 26 percent there.

Labels:

237 Comments:

1 – 200 of 237 Newer› Newest»
Anonymous frenchy April 05, 2014 9:12 AM  

Vox,

Thanks for the post. After reading what you said about Pale Moon yesterday, I went and tried it out. Had no idea it was dang near a firefox replica. Seems to me to run faster, too.

And gotta love that migration tool. Was worried about losing my bookmarks, and my add-ons. Went smooth. After a few hours, I uninstalled Firefox for good.

If you are on the fence out there, I recommend this browser. (I just got one tweak to work out as a bad setting I had (and could not find and fix) in Firefox got migrated over to PM).

Anonymous Kyle (soon no longer in Japan) April 05, 2014 9:21 AM  

Guess I might jump on board with this pretty soon.

What are some Ilk-suggested alternatives to Thunderbird?

Anonymous lowkey April 05, 2014 9:25 AM  

Pale Moon is based on Firefox and future updates will come from its source tree. There may be some advantages to the choices of its developer but at the core it's still Firefox. Hardly a radical change.

Reminds me of Iceweasel on Debian. Different name because of legal complications but it's still Firefox.

Anonymous Salt April 05, 2014 9:28 AM  

There is this for potential email client, recomended via PM Forums.

By the way, there are very interesting add-ons that will let you do what you want. Including a full-fledged integrated simple e-mail client that runs in Pale Moon tabs

Anonymous David of One April 05, 2014 9:29 AM  

I switched last night as well.

No regrets whatsoever. I have only a couple of add-ons I need to work on now. Hopefully the 64-bit versions are available.

Life is Good!

Anonymous Salt April 05, 2014 9:30 AM  

Pale Moon, though built on opensource Firefox, is not affiliated with Mozilla in any way.

Anonymous damaged justice April 05, 2014 9:32 AM  

Use Lynx. If a site doesn't work with it, they have nothing you care about.

Anonymous Stg58/Animal Mother April 05, 2014 9:34 AM  

I use Dolphin as my phone browser. Android.

Blogger Leatherwing April 05, 2014 9:35 AM  

I installed Pale Moon, but had not yet found that NoScript still works. I was willing to lose that for ideological reasons, but am very pleased that I don't have to. Will be interested in your choice for a Thiunderbird replacement. In the short term, I'm switching to Outlook (I have the 2010 version installed, may as well use it).

Anonymous VD April 05, 2014 9:38 AM  

There may be some advantages to the choices of its developer but at the core it's still Firefox. Hardly a radical change.

You're missing the point. It is not Mozilla.

Blogger Didact April 05, 2014 9:40 AM  

Vox- for Linux users, there is a native optimised Firefox build called Swiftfox, which I have used in the past and will probably begin using now that Mozilla has set its very silly precedent.

Swiftfox is available here, and also through most Linux package managers. It's at least 15% faster than Firefox, in my experience, and is mostly if not completely compatible with the add-ons.

Anonymous Anonymous April 05, 2014 9:43 AM  

Use Lynx. If a site doesn't work with it, they have nothing you care about.

(:

I wish lynx was easier to use for navigating--I would spend my browsing time in it as I prefer text to bling.

Currently typing on Opera, I sent a feedback message from Firefox (help->report bug or something) just before #uninstalling telling them that I had been using it for years but could not tolerate their hate.

emacs-w3m is next.

I would use chrome, but google is evil.

It feels good to do the right thing.

A heads up to the dos users out there. If you get angry at micorsoft doing automatic updates you did not ask for (the ones that sternly warn you to not turn off your computer) and you do actually power off the computer, there is a non-zero chance that it will corrupt your hard drive and make it un-bootable. just sayin.

Anonymous Steveo April 05, 2014 9:46 AM  

I uninstalled Firefox yesterday (and sent them a note as to why)... and am working with Ixquick per Salt's suggestion in another thread. I'll look into Pale Moon too

Anonymous HerewardMW April 05, 2014 9:46 AM  

Damn. Faster than anything I've tried up to now. Good tip.

Blogger WATYF April 05, 2014 9:47 AM  

Another vote for Dolphin browser in Android. I liked it much better than Firefox (or any of the several other browsers I tried). Unfortunately, my preferred keyboard developed a compatibility issue with it, so now I'm stuck using UC Browser, which is OK.

WATYF

Blogger El Borak April 05, 2014 9:49 AM  

I installed it yesterday and like it a lot. Thanks for the tip.

Blogger brian April 05, 2014 9:53 AM  

Since they now have a version of Adblock Plus that works with Internet Explorer 11 (regular and full-screen on Windows 8) I'm going to give that a try.

Never thought that MS would be less evil than Mozilla, but at least MS doesn't fire their CEO for going against the day's two-minute hate.

Blogger RCR_Chris April 05, 2014 9:55 AM  

I agree, Opera for Android is "ok". Dolphin was my preference but several little things bugged me. Been playing with "Next" browser for Android for the last couple of days, and am impressed so far.

Like it better than any other so far...

Anonymous Will Best April 05, 2014 10:13 AM  

If Firefox had stayed this smooth, I would have never dumped it for chrome a couple years back.

Blogger Markku April 05, 2014 10:15 AM  

It's funny how the guy managed to produce such a fast browser... By

a) Removing some bloat features that practically nobody uses from Firefox, and
b) Switching insane compile flags for sane ones.

And there you go. Fast, new browser that isn't statistically counted as Firefox usage.

Anonymous Stilicho April 05, 2014 10:17 AM  

Thx

Anonymous Ostar April 05, 2014 10:19 AM  

I want to ask the Ilk about using AdBlock. Will removing ads during your pageview remove potential revenue? I've heard both ways, and there are a number of smaller personal run sites that could feel the bite if so. I don't mind doing that to corporate sites, but individually run sites may be a different matter sometimes.

Blogger Markku April 05, 2014 10:26 AM  

Will removing ads during your pageview remove potential revenue?

Only Vox's personal income. I made the book ads myself, so AdBlock Plus doesn't recognize them as such. The thing that does get removed is the Newsmax headlines, and those don't have anything to do with Castalia House.

Anonymous jayb April 05, 2014 10:27 AM  

Ostar, you can whitelist sites with adblock.

Any ilk have recommendations for Mac users? (keep your snark pocketed)

Blogger JS April 05, 2014 10:31 AM  

I have been using Dolphin on Android for quite a while now, no complaints

Blogger IM2L844 April 05, 2014 10:36 AM  

(keep your snark pocketed)

Yeah, like that's gonna happen. Snarkling persnickifications are our stock and trade.

Blogger Markku April 05, 2014 10:36 AM  

The advantage for Mac would be much smaller, and consist only of the bloat code removal. Mac doesn't suffer from the problem of having to maintain legacy hardware compatibility all the way back to the original Pentium. Which attempt is what makes Firefox slow.

Blogger Beau April 05, 2014 10:36 AM  

I switched to Pale Moon. Now the Instapundit link located in your right hand Day Trips webpage column doesn't work and generates an error msg:

Forbidden

You don't have permission to access / on this server.
Apache/2.2.3 (Red Hat) Server at www.instapundit.com Port 80


Ugh.

On the other hand, I clicked The Repear's Hairball in the Voxlogisti list and talked to Bane. (Nah, just kidding).

Blogger Markku April 05, 2014 10:39 AM  

Beau: The instapundit site is down. Not your browser's fault.

Anonymous beerme April 05, 2014 10:40 AM  

I've been using the 64-bit version on my desktop and the Atom optimized version on my netbook since Thursday. The only thing I've noticed is the improvement in speed and the lack of crashes when using Flash.

Anonymous Anonymous April 05, 2014 10:40 AM  

There may be some advantages to the choices of its developer but at the core it's still Firefox.

For most people, that's a positive. If they were using Firefox, presumably they were fairly happy with it. This way, they get to keep using something that's enough like Firefox to be familiar, while not supporting a company they don't like.

Besides, diversity in software, especially in something as fundamental these days as web browsers, is always a good thing, even if it's just minor forks. The more different browsers there are, the better.

Anonymous VD April 05, 2014 10:44 AM  

The thing that does get removed is the Newsmax headlines, and those don't have anything to do with Castalia House.

Not even that, as I'm not accepting their advertisements anymore. They cut their standard rates and I decided it wasn't worth it.

Anonymous harry12 April 05, 2014 10:48 AM  

.
I'm trying "Claws" for a Thunderbird replacement. Curiously, during the setup I found a still viable, 3-yrs unused email address at my ISP's home site! Even found the password...
Sure is plenty of doo-doo to come out of the hard drive closets.
.

Anonymous beerme April 05, 2014 10:48 AM  

I can't speak for others, but the reason I stuck with Firefox for so long was the add-ons. The fact that Pale Moon does everything I liked about Firefox better than Mozilla is a feature.

Anonymous JP April 05, 2014 10:54 AM  

For Android, I'm using Opera Mini for now, but I'm not particularly fond of it

Just to be clear: there are two Opera versions for mobiles: Opera Mini and Opera Mobile. Opera Mini is the lite, low spec version for entry-level devices and Mobile is the big daddy for high-end devices.

Blogger Beau April 05, 2014 10:56 AM  

Beau: The instapundit site is down. Not your browser's fault.

OK, thanks. Oh wait, does that mean the apparition I talked to WASN'T Bane? Oh Dear.

Anonymous johnc April 05, 2014 11:01 AM  

It's clear that Mozilla has been mailing it in for awhile now. I guess as it turns out the company has been focused more on its core mission of promoting LGBT rights than actually making technological progress.

http://vr-zone.com/articles/firefox-proves-vulnerable-browser-pwn2own-hackfest

I half-switched to open-source Chromium awhile ago and it's definitely better.

Anonymous The other skeptic April 05, 2014 11:02 AM  

They no longer even try to hide their rapacious behavior with public funds.

Anonymous jack April 05, 2014 11:07 AM  

Good Enough. Thanks for the word, VD. I will download and profile as you did.

RIP Firefox. Long live, Whatever.

Anonymous SDH April 05, 2014 11:09 AM  

Beau: The instapundit site is down. Not your browser's fault.

http://pjmedia.com/instapundit/ works fine.

Anonymous FP April 05, 2014 11:13 AM  

Just came across this:

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/how-rare-are-anti-gay-marriage-donations-in-silicon-valley/

"In total between these 11 companies, 83 percent of employee donations were in opposition to Proposition 8. So Eich was in a 17 percent minority relative to the top companies in Silicon Valley…

However, there was quite a bit of variation from business to business. At Intel, 60 percent of employee donations were in support of Proposition 8. By contrast, at Apple, 94 percent of employee donations were made in opposition to Proposition 8. The opposition was even higher at Google, where 96 percent of employee donations were against it, including $100,000 from co-founder Sergey Brin."

Anonymous bob k. mando April 05, 2014 11:15 AM  

jayb April 05, 2014 10:27 AM
Any ilk have recommendations for Mac users? (keep your snark pocketed)



when you're carrying .44 mag snark, sometimes you just gotta whip it out and ask a punk if he feels lucky.

well, do ya, punk?

is that a .44 mag snark in my pocket? why no. i'm just happy to see you.


Beau April 05, 2014 10:56 AM
Oh wait, does that mean the apparition I talked to WASN'T Bane?



who says reincarnation isn't a thing. howdy, Saul.

Anonymous bob k. mando April 05, 2014 11:16 AM  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gfMXEmCew4&feature=kp

Anonymous ___ April 05, 2014 11:22 AM  

The only viable Thunderbird alternative I've found is mutt. Nothing else supports multiple identities per account, which is a dealbreaker for me. And for all three linux users out there, if you want a super minimalist webkit browser, try surf.

Blogger IM2L844 April 05, 2014 11:28 AM  

And for all three linux users out there, if you want a super minimalist webkit browser, try surf.

I'd like to see how well Pale Moon works in Puppy with the Wine emulator (loaded into RAM). It's speed is pretty impressive in Windows 8.1 so far. We'll see if it slows down over time like Firefox always did no matter how clean I tried to keep it.

Blogger IM2L844 April 05, 2014 11:35 AM  

At Intel, 60 percent of employee donations were in support of Proposition 8.

Makes me feel better about my 4770K purchase.

Blogger Anthony April 05, 2014 11:43 AM  

Actually, there are least three versions of Opera for android. I use Opera Classic, because I just couldn't get used to the ui "upgrade". Apparently I wasn't alone, which is why Opera Software re-released their " classic" version.

Anonymous Steveo April 05, 2014 11:47 AM  

Wow, I'm impressed. Pale Moon is the fastest I've seen yet. Thanks.

Anonymous hygate April 05, 2014 11:53 AM  

Switched from opera to pale moon. So far liking it much better. As for instapundit link, I found that going to pjmedia.com/instapundit works but instapundit.com doesn't. Could be someone neglected to renew the domain name registration.

Anonymous The other skeptic April 05, 2014 11:58 AM  

Could be someone neglected to renew the domain name registration.

Well, it works again, but the explanation doesn't fly. I was getting an error from Apache saying access denied or some such. If the domain was no longer registered we would not get that far.

Anonymous Tim April 05, 2014 12:00 PM  

Hi vox. Could you check your Facebook profile? I sent you a message there that I think you might find interesting. My name is Tim and it's somewhat related to this.... On a large scale.

Anonymous Daniel April 05, 2014 12:00 PM  

Pale Moon is remarkably better, and yes, works in Wine just fine (although ubuntu is my backup, not my main, so I haven't looked at it for very long.) I too had been hating Firefox for quality issues for some time, but just not as much as I hated the other alternatives. Happy to switch. Poor old Netscape: they know how to build an asylum...just not how to run one.

Other notes: iscalzi link dropped off a few days ago, and on reading list? You've got Don Sutton instead of Jeff a couple of times.

Anonymous Salt April 05, 2014 12:01 PM  

@truth #idiot

Anonymous VD April 05, 2014 12:05 PM  

Truth, you're not permitted to comment here anymore. Please stop your cyberstalking.

Anonymous VD April 05, 2014 12:07 PM  

My name is Tim and it's somewhat related to this.... On a large scale.

Just shoot me an email using the contact on the right sidebar. I'm seldom on FB.

Anonymous The other skeptic April 05, 2014 12:07 PM  

Is OK Cupid just another bunch of dirtbag hypocrits or are they going to go after Intel now?

Ohh, I know. Their CEO didn't donate, so that makes it OK.

Anonymous The other skeptic April 05, 2014 12:10 PM  

"Could be someone neglected to renew the domain name registration."

Well, it works again, but the explanation doesn't fly. I was getting an error from Apache saying access denied or some such. If the domain was no longer registered we would not get that far.


And if it was a registration payment issue, usually the registrars send you to a web page that says "This domain available ..." by translating the name to the IP address of their server.

Anonymous Daniel April 05, 2014 12:10 PM  

I think firefox had dropped to something like 12% usage overall (don't know what its peak was, but it was bigger than that.) so the Alpha Game drop is very interesting. If even a portion of that high user rate translates to a general drop, Firefox could be in the single digits overall very soon.

That wouldn't be an encouraging figure for their would-be warlords from within. What is hilarious is that they'll blame the OKCupid righteous crusade against those bastard homophobes, not the obvious natural migration away from directionless tech organizations beholden to the gospel of the moment.

For a tech company, these people are terrible at math and science.

Anonymous Will Best April 05, 2014 12:12 PM  

Boycotting something you dont have to pay for. #stupid

What makes you think that just because you don't hand over dollars (or digital representations thereof) that something is free?

Anonymous The other skeptic April 05, 2014 12:13 PM  

The info about donations for and against Prop 8 is interesting:

However, there was quite a bit of variation from business to business. At Intel, 60 percent of employee donations were in support of Proposition 8. By contrast, at Apple, 94 percent of employee donations were made in opposition to Proposition 8. The opposition was even higher at Google, where 96 percent of employee donations were against it, including $100,000 from co-founder Sergey Brin.

This can be explained by youthfulness and hypocrisy it seems to me.

You need a few years under your belt to be useful to a company like Intel, and the pro-fudgepacker propaganda was evident in high schools around the country a few years ago.

Blogger Cory S April 05, 2014 12:18 PM  

Hey Vox,

I've been reading your posts here about Mozilla and the federal law allowing employers to release employees based on "Democratic Affiliation" but certain states not allowing it. This has led me to a relevant, but a bit off topic question. But if you'll indulge me - if you were somehow hypothetically "forced" to return to the United States, which state would you move to and why?

I currently live in the beautiful, but politically dreadful state of California and am pondering a move.

Anonymous aviendha April 05, 2014 12:19 PM  

for those on android a few moments to check out "dolphin" browser is recommended.
You can teach it swipe commands (I don't), book marks are very quick (swipe from the left border to the middle, tap the bookmark, boom).
ALso it defaults to full screen so the content is not competing with browser tab and other navigation screen eating defaults. (Sure many browsers can customize to this state).

cheers

Anonymous VD April 05, 2014 12:25 PM  

Either North Dakota or Texas.

Anonymous Salt April 05, 2014 12:26 PM  

We, the undersigned, pledge to uninstall or cease usage of Mozilla Firefox in protest over Mozilla’s decision to fire Eich for his position on traditional marriage, which is held by tens of millions of religious and conservative Americans. Mozilla’s intolerance and discrimination against those with different political and religious viewpoints stands in stark contrast to its supposed mission to enshrine “equality and freedom of speech,” and must not be tolerated.

So far over 4700 signed the petition.

Anonymous The other skeptic April 05, 2014 12:26 PM  

Ignore the fudge packers for a moment, because we know they are deviants and deviants gotta deviate into disgusting territory ...

What does it say about all these people that they cover up for a man who sexually assaulted his three year old daughter.

I think even Kratman would agree that impaling is too good for him!

Blogger Cory S April 05, 2014 12:31 PM  

Thanks. Texas is certainly on my radar.

Anonymous SirHamster April 05, 2014 12:37 PM  

WINE Is Not an Emulator. :P

Pale Moon definitely feels more responsive than Firefox, and I haven't seen Flash crash since switching over.

Anonymous Jack Amok April 05, 2014 12:41 PM  

I'm not a regular Firefox uses (other than testing) but I'll give Pale Moon a try. So far it seems good.

a) Removing some bloat features that practically nobody uses from Firefox, and
b) Switching insane compile flags for sane ones.


I really wish more people could get behind this sort of thing. Microsoft for one puts an insane amount of work into a ton of features that all have marginal use (well, the truth is, they have zero use to 99% of people but massive value to a tiny percentage, so I understand the lure, but still, ).

I think it's a sign of customer disconnect in the corporate (which Mozilla inhabits too) world that people can drive so many marginal features into products.

Anonymous Don April 05, 2014 12:42 PM  

Just switched to Pale Moon way faster and it was painless. Sorry homogamy loving firefox it was nice (no sarcasm) knowing you.

Blogger IM2L844 April 05, 2014 12:51 PM  

WINE Is Not an Emulator. :P

LOL, yep. Point -> SirHamster.

Anonymous 204 April 05, 2014 12:55 PM  

OT. Sometimes I go to shadertoy.com to see the animations they have. Firefox, Pale Moon, and IE lock up immediately and load everything after 4 to 5 minutes. Chrome never locks up and loads it in 10-15 seconds.

Blogger tz April 05, 2014 12:57 PM  

I'm forced to use win at work. Pale moon is better than the Bigot Bully Browser.

(Eric Raymond wrote a scathing post about mozilla).

The tyranny of the default and "good enough" and habit is sometimes easy to break.

I don't care about recent Macs, and My old one won't install Fedora 64 bit, and snow leopard is now like xp. Time to recycle.

The only extension that isn't compatible is classic compact theme, but I've found a font changer that does most of it.

I shall give Wine a try before I whine further.

Do they need help with the Linux port?

A RasPi version would be great.

Blogger Markku April 05, 2014 1:01 PM  

tz:

source code

Have fun.

Blogger Adam Lawson April 05, 2014 1:08 PM  

I'm glad you're seeing a drop in Firefox users. I've dropped it -- for now on chromium (a Linux build of Chrome) while I look at other alternatives. (Chromium was already installed when this mess happened.)

I never used Firefox on mobile; Chrome is good enough (I don't care about privacy via my smartphone -- I assume the cell provider and NSA are seeing it all anyway.)

Blogger foxmarks April 05, 2014 1:12 PM  

Tried the SwiftFox installer and .deb. Neither worked. Any other Linux alternatives to suggest?

FF is my main browser. I also run Chromium and Midori. I canned Opera for being slow and buggy.

How about a FF extension that masks its ID? I like the idea of anything cleaner and faster (that runs NosScript or equivalent), but the political point here is to reduce FF’s stats. It seems masking/spoofing would accomplish that without needing to switch.

Anonymous TJ April 05, 2014 1:14 PM  

Thanks Markku.

I see it requires Visual Studio 2012. Perfect.

Blogger Markku April 05, 2014 1:18 PM  

Correct. The last time I checked, VS still produced measurably faster code than GCC. And this fork is dedicaded to speed.

Blogger orlando braga April 05, 2014 1:20 PM  

I shall follow you!

Anonymous srg2500 April 05, 2014 1:27 PM  

Pale Moon is based on Firefox and future updates will come from its source tree.

I was wondering about this. From the Pale Moon website, it's not clear to me whether PM code updates are totally unique, the project having diverged completely from FF, or that PM is just hacked FF and will continue to be. If the latter, the non-technical motivations for the switch become less compelling.

Blogger njartist April 05, 2014 1:31 PM  

The problem is that Firefox has some nice developers' tools for working with javaScript, CSS, ans HTML. Do the alternatives have anything of similar quality?

Anonymous Scintan April 05, 2014 1:45 PM  

I mentioned this in another FF thread, and it makes sense to repeat it here:

If you're going to switch over from FF to Palemoon, I recommend that you keep FF on your system. If you're not using it, and you haven't been allowing automatic updates, it'll be as good as gone from their perspective, and you'll have something to fall back to in an emergency. All you'll have to do is occasionally update your bookmarks (and the program, if you choose to do that).

Anonymous rycamor April 05, 2014 2:04 PM  

Linux users wanting good alternatives have 4 choices:

1. IceCat
2. Conkeror (mozilla-based browser for keyboard jockeys)
3. Abandon Gecko-based browsers for something built on WebKit, such as QupZilla, Midori, Konqueror, many others, including Chrome (But remember, Google is probably one of the parties bringing pressure against Eich)
4. Download Xulrunner and build their own browser. In fact, I would recommend downloading the Xulrunner codebase as a precaution in case it disappears into the ether. It was hard to get on its own for awhile.

Anonymous rycamor April 05, 2014 2:06 PM  

njartist April 05, 2014 1:31 PM

The problem is that Firefox has some nice developers' tools for working with javaScript, CSS, ans HTML. Do the alternatives have anything of similar quality?


These days the WebKit browsers are bringing some really nice tools to bear. They have pretty much aped FireBug, although not all the wild permutations thereof found in the add-on registry.

Anonymous Cederq April 05, 2014 2:13 PM  

Ahh, just uninstalled Firefox, I feel better now. I noticed during the uninstall procedure that Firefox was 53.7 Meg to Pale Moon's 49 Meg size, was that due to bloat crapware?
Good advice VD, thanks for recommending PM.

Blogger Beau April 05, 2014 2:23 PM  

A little help please. Using FF, I had Amazon and Ebay as options in my search engine menu. Pale Moon allows for other search engines, but doesn't seem to offer just plain vanilla Amazon or Ebay. How can I put these two as options. I have them bookmarked already, but it was far more convenient to go straight from the search menu list.

Anonymous ENthePeasant April 05, 2014 2:28 PM  

I've been using Pale Moon for two days now, ever since Markku mentioned it. I almost feel bad about it. I like Pale Moon so much better, and as VD mentioned, probably would have changed over anyways... My protest is turning into a smart decision, not exactly the stuff protests are made of.

Anonymous Van April 05, 2014 2:30 PM  

Any suggestions for an alternative to Tor?

Anonymous ENthePeasant April 05, 2014 2:31 PM  

And I'm also looking for a new program to replace Thunderbird but I'm done taking chances for the moment, I have a pretty fair program that runs with my browser so I'm good for now, but if anyone has something wonderful let us know. And thanks Salt, i saw that, just let us know how it's working for you.

Anonymous lowkey April 05, 2014 2:55 PM  

It is still based on the code developed by and for Mozilla. It's just a name change. It's as superficial a change as you can make. I could respect the change if you were doing it just for the performance improvements but if it's really an ethical stance against Mozilla then do it right and move to Chrome or another browser that isn't built on their roots.

Blogger RobertT April 05, 2014 3:08 PM  

Done. I'd already planned to, but just hadn't gotten around to. As far as I'm concerned Firefox started going downhill a couple of years ago. I had already moved on to chrome so I'm just getting rid of a backup. Not much better politically I suppose. But at least they believe in the profit motive.

Anonymous Salt April 05, 2014 3:12 PM  

The simple email client I posted earlier seems to work fine. I'm using it to access my Yahoo mail.

Blogger Markku April 05, 2014 3:12 PM  

lowkey: Mozilla doesn't get any advantage from someone using a software that announces itself as something other than Mozilla-affiliated program, even if it is forked from the same code. We get the best of both worlds this way; we get the trust that comes from the genuine open source nature of the program (and from Google having nothing to do with it), but we don't provide them the status that comes from adding percentages to Firefox users.

Blogger Markku April 05, 2014 3:13 PM  

It would be different if the problem was the code. But it's the brand. And that's exactly what we get rid of this way.

Anonymous lowkey April 05, 2014 3:17 PM  

I could respect Pale Moon if it were a true fork of the codebase but it's not. The developer says on its website that it will integrate future updates to Firefox into itself. So its future is that of Firefox. At the very best Pale Moon is only a name change. If that is good enough for you, so be it but trying to pretend it's more is just silly.

Anonymous VD April 05, 2014 3:17 PM  

It is still based on the code developed by and for Mozilla. It's just a name change. It's as superficial a change as you can make.

Someone doesn't understand the concept of "forking". It's not superficial at all.

Anonymous lowkey April 05, 2014 3:21 PM  

Yes they do. By it being known that your code is used in a variety of other sources can make it easier to gather donations. So while using Pale Moon does not directly help their numbers, I assume that the Mozilla people will find a way to combine those numbers.

Anonymous VD April 05, 2014 3:22 PM  

At the very best Pale Moon is only a name change. If that is good enough for you, so be it but trying to pretend it's more is just silly.

Aspie much? Anyhow, you're wrong. It's about Mozilla's installed base. You're complaining that the symbolic gesture is mostly symbolic. This is why so many tech guys have trouble with women. You don't speak the language of symbols.

"But the code is essentially the same!" Totally irrelevant.

Blogger Outlaw X April 05, 2014 3:23 PM  

NB: The all-time percentage of Firefox is 34 percent here and 30 percent at Alpha Game. It's already down to 28 percent here and 26 percent there.

I believe Pale Moon registers as Firefox by websites, have you seen a Pale moon count in your Browser stats? I was on your site yesterday with PM testing it out and I believe Salt uses it as well, today I am on IE.

Anonymous ENthePeasant April 05, 2014 3:23 PM  

Low Key, I have taken an ethical stance against Google as well. Pale Moon is faster and I'm not having any issues with freezes like I was having with Firefox. It may run off of Mozilla code but it's hardly Firefox. It's better.

Anonymous lowkey April 05, 2014 3:26 PM  

It's entirely superficial. A true fork does not continue to rely on the original parent project for the vast majority of its updates. It has to produce something new. Pale Moon could be described as an optimized release but its hardly a fork.

Anonymous Supernaut April 05, 2014 3:28 PM  

Thanks to the post yesterday, I downloaded PM yesterday and have been giving it a good test run.

I'm absolutely stoked.

I run a program called zone alarm (with WIndows XP on an old Dell), and it monitors all programs that attempt to access the internet.

Pale Moon reminds me of how Firefox used to be. But sometime around 2 years ago, (I've always updated the latest versions whenever they became available), the firefox plug-in container became a RAM hog on certain websites and slow my entire PC down. I had to set my Zone Alarm to deny the FF plug-in container access to fix the problem, but even then, Firefox still somehow became a major RAM hog.

24+ hours of Pale Moon...zero problems with RAM.

Uninstalling Firefox to make a point against the pro-fag douche crew is just an added bonus. Thanks for the recommendation Vox!

Blogger Salt April 05, 2014 3:28 PM  

The simple email client for Pale Moon I mentioned earlier seems to work fine.

Anonymous Scomo April 05, 2014 3:30 PM  

Unistalled FF yesterday but started using IE. Just download PM through your link and am using now.
Thanks for the tip.

Blogger Salt April 05, 2014 3:31 PM  

From Twitter -

Pale Moon ‏@palemoonbrowser 21h

To be clear: Pale Moon is in no way associated or affiliated with the Mozilla Corporation. http://j.mp/1hpq0d3

Anonymous lowkey April 05, 2014 3:32 PM  

If you're doing it for performance reasons, it very well could be the right decision. And that is good.

But pretending you made some big change for ethical reasons is just transparently not true. At best it's a small change.

Anonymous CJ April 05, 2014 3:38 PM  

I replaced Thunderbird with EM Client. I love it so far, much better than Opera Mail. The free version only supports two accounts which isn't a problem for me. Also, need to check your security software to make sure the outgoing mail port isn't blocked

I'm using Comodo IceDragon as my browser. Its based on Firefox. So far all my add ons are working fine. I'm going to get around to trying the virtual browsing environment.

Anonymous Supernaut April 05, 2014 3:48 PM  

Reading that forum further, I now see the developer "moonchild" appears to be rather libertarian minded and opposed to the all seeing eye of Googliath.

I've been using DuckDuckGo as my default search engine ever since it was revealed that Googliath tracks every single search and operator info.

The fact that DDG is the default search app for Pale Moon is just icing on the cake.

All hail the Pale!

Anonymous Michael April 05, 2014 3:48 PM  

Now that the latter has made a public spectacle of their intolerance by ousting a CEO over his Prop 8 donation, I won't have anything to do with Mozilla in the future. The ironically-labeled progressives' blatant intolerance resembles that of totalitarian regimes. (Perhaps they should consider relocating to North Korea.) Indeed, Pale Moon is excellent. Thanks for steering me in the right direction.

Blogger RobertT April 05, 2014 3:49 PM  

Pale Moon is built on the Firefox code. This is just one of a number of ripoffs that use the Firefox code and tweak it a little achieve some purpose or other such as tearing out all the junk that lets the program accommodate slower machines. Open Source obviously means Open Source. They even number their versions identically. To what extend is switching to Pale Moon really a statement? That said, I may try it myself. I don't trust politics or politicians so I try not to let politics get in the way of practicality. The only way to get rid of liberalism is kill the welfare state. Boycotting a good product can end up biting off your nose to spite your face.

Blogger James Higham April 05, 2014 3:53 PM  

there are no plans for a Mac version

That ends that then.

Anonymous Supernaut April 05, 2014 3:54 PM  

But pretending you made some big change for ethical reasons is just transparently not true. At best it's a small change.

Ah, but it's hope and change that we can believe in!

Besides, nobody's pretending shit. I hate corporatized fast food and the soft drink industry with a passion. I don't eat any kind of fast food nor drink any kind of soda, ever.

I don't believe my personal boycott will have any sort of affect on the poisonous industry whatsoever.

But I still derive personal satisfaction in knowing I don't support them in any way, shape or form whatsoever.

Foregoing any sort of support or usage of any HoMozilla product, while using a new product that takes the best of what made HoMozilla successful in the first place and stripping out all the extraneous, RAM-hog features is a win-win in my book.

Believe me, my enthusiasm here is anything but pretending.

Anonymous Anonymous April 05, 2014 3:59 PM  

But pretending you made some big change for ethical reasons is just transparently not true. At best it's a small change.

You're reading too much into it. People want to make sure they aren't helping to fund Mozilla, and subtract 1 from the userbase that Mozilla can claim. That's all. If they can do that with a "small change" that allows them to keep using something that's pretty much the Firefox they already know, so much the better.

As a practical matter, most boycotts are empty gestures except to the person doing them. I don't shop at Wal-Mart, but I still shop at Sam's. Does that make sense as an "ethical" stand? Not really, but it's where I decided to draw the line for myself.

Anonymous beerme April 05, 2014 4:02 PM  

I believe Pale Moon registers as Firefox by websites, have you seen a Pale moon count in your Browser stats? I was on your site yesterday with PM testing it out and I believe Salt uses it as well, today I am on IE.

One of the banks I use recognized PM as an unsupported browser and suggested that I switch to IE/FF/Chrome.

Anonymous Magic Unicorn w/ extra sparkling rainbows April 05, 2014 4:09 PM  

Just installed Pale Moon on Windows 8. Works very well. I can confirm that the following plug-ins, the basic reason I stuck with FF all these years, work just fine:

* No Script
* Request Policy
* Ghostery
* Adblock Plus
* Greasemonkey

Thanks for pushing me to take I step I should really have taken years ago on technical merit alone years ago. It runs faster noticeably faster, has smaller footprint and plug-ins work just fine. What's not to like?

And sticking it to the pink-shirt fascists - no matter in how small a way - is a nice bonus too. DDG as default search engine instead of google helps.

Anonymous lowkey April 05, 2014 4:15 PM  

Ah, changing the topic! The last refuge of the man who realizes he cannot justify his position with simple logic is often to fallback on namecalling and other distractions. It's been fun but if you're already at this point....is there any reason to continue?

Anonymous Michael April 05, 2014 4:25 PM  

There exist many other web surfing tools available if any of you are paranoid or apprehensive about Pale Moon. Browsar seems like a good alternative to IE, for instance, and there's even portable versions which can be run from USB. Also, Google, Yahoo and Bing aren't the only search engines in town. I use DuckDuckGo, although it supposedly records your IP address. I've heard there are some which don't, though I don't know offhand any by name.

Whatever way you choose, remember that the best thing we can do is not give support to those who seek to punish us for holding fast to our convictions. Thoroughly unethical, anti-American behavior. If they're willing to do that to an established CEO, they'd have no qualms about doing the same to anyone else.

Anonymous Balzac April 05, 2014 4:25 PM  

Enough, 'mozilla! I decided to get rid of Firefox as well, but being on an accursèd Mac, I chose Opera. It has worked well for simple browsing so far, and seems sprightlier than Firefox.

Anonymous Daniel April 05, 2014 4:26 PM  

No, lowkey. You missed the response. Read it again. This time, do it in normal. The only one thinking you are winning an argument is you...and you don't even know what the argument is.

Anonymous Salt April 05, 2014 4:53 PM  

I use DuckDuckGo, although it supposedly records your IP address. I've heard there are some which don't, though I don't know offhand any by name.

Either ixquick or startpage. Startpage is ixquick. No IP recording and one can choose their proxy service (each shown link has proxy with it) and go through them; be anon.

Anonymous lowkey April 05, 2014 4:53 PM  

OK, I looked back through it and I don't see what response you're referring to. But as I've said before if what you are looking for is an optimized build for Windows then there's a good chance that Pale Moon is what you're looking for. Much like SwiftFox on Linux as others have mentioned. I'm not even saying you shouldn't use it. I use Iceweasel as my primary browsers on my desktop and laptops myself. What I am trying to point out is that none of these are a major change from Firefox itself. It seems silly to believe you're somehow better because you use Iceweasel or Pale Moon instead of Firefox.

Blogger Outlaw X April 05, 2014 4:55 PM  

I use DuckDuckGo, although it supposedly records your IP address. I've heard there are some which don't, though I don't know offhand any by name.

"Startpage.com" does not record your IP and you can view searched Items using their proxy sever, and they will never know you visited their site.

Blogger IM2L844 April 05, 2014 4:57 PM  

Ah, changing the topic! The last refuge of the man who realizes he cannot justify his position with simple logic is often to fallback on namecalling and other distractions.

I really don't know what is so difficult about this that you can't seem to understand it. Who do you think writes the code for Firefox and all it's add-ons?

From M.C. Straver (Developer of Pale Moon):

post by Moonchild [M.C. Straver] » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:10 pm

"Is Pale Moon affiliated with Mozilla?

No.

Pale Moon (and Moonchild Productions) is in no way associated or affiliated with the Mozilla Corporation or Mozilla Foundation. Pale Moon nor the developer have any ties with Mozilla, financially or otherwise. Mozilla does not benefit from people using Pale Moon.

Pale Moon is a fully independent product.

So what link is there with Mozilla?

Only one: I use the freely available Open Source code of Firefox to base Pale Moon on.


On a more personal note: I do not agree with Mozilla's management decisions, recent design decisions or the rather upsetting CEO resignation and controversy around it. Even though I personally don't agree with the ex-CEO's views, and understand the resistance against it and dissociation people might feel to a company with someone in a leading position actively opposing gay rights, Mozilla's response of making him immediately resign was a display of severe lack of tolerance for different views.
I believe in freedom, respect, tolerance and choice. I will always attempt to make Pale Moon and the driving forces behind it reflect that, and will not judge anyone on their personal beliefs, so long as they respect my own.

This statement here is in place to let people know that if they wish to abandon Mozilla products as a result of either disagreement mentioned, they can feel confident in using Pale Moon as an alternative.

Last edited by Moonchild on Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Clarified the personal note.


Do not contact me for private support, please share the question in our forums.
"

Now do you get it, lowkey?

Blogger Flannel Avenger April 05, 2014 4:59 PM  

If you're a little tech savvy you can skip the conversion tool and straight up copy your Firefox profile over to Pale Moon. That's what I did, it got all the bookmarks and add ons with no trouble. (You do have to approve each add on the next time you start Pale Moon though. But it gave me the opportunity to get rid of some I wasn't using anymore anyway).

Anonymous ENthePeasant April 05, 2014 5:04 PM  

BTW, I use Start Page for my search engine:

"10 Ways
StartPage Helps You Take Back Your Privacy

StartPage doesn't store your IP address, use tracking cookies, or make a record of your searches.

We do not keep any information about the people who search through StartPage or what they search for. Nothing. Nada. Zilch.

StartPage protects you from NSA surveillance and spying.

Your search session with StartPage is protected through powerful SSL encryption so no one - not hackers, not your ISP, not even the federal government - can eavesdrop on your searches. (Read more here)

StartPage gives you 100% real Google results in complete privacy.

When you search with Startpage, we remove all identifying information from your query and submit it anonymously to Google for you. We get the results and return them to you in total privacy.

StartPage is a Dutch company, so it is not under US jurisdiction.

Because our company is based in the Netherlands, US data collection programs like PRISM, the Patriot Act, FISA courts, etc. do not directly apply to us. We have never cooperated with spying programs like PRISM. (Plus we have no user data to begin with.)

StartPage offers a free proxy with every search.

With our proxy, not only can you search privately, but you can view the pages you find through
StartPage anonymously and in complete security. To learn more, please see our short overview video here.

StartPage is third-party certified for privacy.

We not only promise our users total privacy, we back up those claims with rock-solid evidence, through stringent third-party auditing and certification. Here are details:

How can your privacy policies be verified? Can users trust StartPage to do what it says?
https://support.startpage.com/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/8/0/how-can-your-privacy-policies-be-verified-can-users-trust-startpage-to-do-what-it-says

What auditing and review does your Europrise certification process involve?
https://support.startpage.com/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/9/0/what-auditing-and-review-does-your-europrise-certification-process-involve

StartPage has been doing privacy longer than anyone else - since way before privacy was "cool".

Our company was founded in 1999, and we've been focused on privacy since 2006. (We introduced the StartPage search engine in 2009.)

When it comes to security, StartPage runs the tightest ship on the Internet.

We've been ahead of the privacy curve for years, and we consistently outscore other search engines on independent measures of security. We were the first search engine to offer default SSL encryption, and now we are the first private search engine to offer Perfect Forward Secrecy and the latest version of Transport Layer Security.

StartPage breaks you free of the search engine "Filter Bubble".

Major search engines now "personalize" or "pre-screen" the search results they serve you, based on what they know about you from past searches and other services you use. While some people love this, others see it as privacy-invading censorship. Regardless of your views, with StartPage, you get clean, anonymous, non-filtered results every time, because nobody knows who you are.

By using StartPage, you send a powerful pro-privacy message in the marketplace.

Each time you use an online service, you cast a vote in support of the policies and practices of that service. By using StartPage, you are casting a powerful vote for a private Internet where people can access information anonymously without fear of government surveillance or reprisal."

Anonymous Atlas April 05, 2014 5:22 PM  

Testing on one machine. Is painless so far and everything transferred fine.

Anonymous Rolf April 05, 2014 5:51 PM  

Pale Moon seems to work for me, though I still can't post comments here with it, just like FireFox. I have to do that through IE.

Blogger Markku April 05, 2014 6:00 PM  

How many times do I have to explain this? The problem is not the source code. In fact, the STRENGTH is the source code - that we have more reason to trust it than any other browser. The problem is the brand. The brand is the only problem. The singular problem in Firefox is the brand, being the only problematic part: the brand. Source code is fine. There is nothing wrong in the source code. Only the brand.

Switching over makes you not count as a Firefox user for statistical purposes. That is the only advantage of you being a Firefox user. You give value to the brand. Not the source code. The brand.

Blogger Markku April 05, 2014 6:06 PM  

Now, what about Iceweasel then? Well, it's better than being a Firefox user, since you deprive them of a user in the percentages. But it still goes out of its way to pay homage to Mozilla; just look at the icon.

So, better than nothing, but from these options, I'd say Pale Moon is the superior one.

Anonymous lowkey April 05, 2014 6:06 PM  

Do you see the part of his comment where he concedes that Pale Moon is built from Firefox code? That is all I've ever claimed. The fact that Pale Moon has no corporate ties to Mozilla doesn't make Pale Moon any less built on Firefox code. This just confirms my point that Pale Moon is nothing more than an optimized build of Firefox with a name change. Pale Moon's version even mirrors that of Firefox, do they need to make it more obvious to you?

Blogger Markku April 05, 2014 6:08 PM  

This just confirms my point that Pale Moon is nothing more than an optimized build of Firefox with a name change.

Yes. Exactly. You get what's best about Firefox, while depriving Mozilla of your value as a Firefox user. Best of all worlds.

Blogger Flannel Avenger April 05, 2014 6:10 PM  

As an aside, if you're running Windows you don't want to get IceWeasel. The IceWeasel for Windows is based on Firefox 3 and will destroy your profile. I tried it a while back just for fun. It's only an option for non-windows systems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_IceCat

Anonymous lowkey April 05, 2014 6:11 PM  

If you run Windows, Pale Moon may be the better choice. On Debian, it handy to get Iceweasel updates via apt-get. To each their own.

And remember I never said not to use Pale Moon but rather just that it wasn't a major ethically different choice from running Firefox.

Anonymous Scintan April 05, 2014 6:11 PM  

Now we just need a tech geek to update Ffvb as an addon, and port that one over.....

Blogger Markku April 05, 2014 6:14 PM  

And remember I never said not to use Pale Moon but rather just that it wasn't a major ethically different choice from running Firefox.

And my argument is that it is. Because it switches the brand - the only value the program gives to Mozilla. They get no value from someone using their source code, if it doesn't announce it as Firefox and doesn't contain the brand. Hence, it is ethically PRECISELY the same as switching to a browser that is based on entirely different source. Because of the nature of the problem. Which is the brand. Not the source code. The brand.

It would be different if the source code was the problem. Say, that we had reason to believe it snoops on the user. Then we'd have to change the source code. But the problem is not the source code. It is the brand. Not the source code.

The brand.

Anonymous Scintan April 05, 2014 6:14 PM  

...And remember I never said not to use Pale Moon but rather just that it wasn't a major ethically different choice from running Firefox.

The "protest" isn't against Firefox. The "protest" is against Mozilla. The fact that Pale Moon seems to be offering a more stable flash interaction has been a nice added bonus.

Anonymous Salt April 05, 2014 6:22 PM  

Lowkey, as Vox said earlier, " This is why so many tech guys have trouble with women. You don't speak the language of symbols."

Anonymous automatthew April 05, 2014 6:24 PM  

If the point were only to reduce the reported percentage of Firefox using visitors to major sites, there's a much easier way to dick with them. Just change your User-Agent to pretend to be a different browser. If Firefox doesn't expose this as an option, there's undoubtedly an extension that will do it for you.

Sounds like Pale Moon is an overall better product, though.

Blogger Markku April 05, 2014 6:26 PM  

We could have just made our Firefoxes lie about what browser it actually is. Perhaps make it look like Lynx. But now we find someone has done the work for us, and in addition to that, we also get optimizations. They are just bonus. But depriving them of a Firefox user in the statistics, that's the statement.

Anonymous automatthew April 05, 2014 6:27 PM  

Something else to consider is that using a relatively uncommon browser like Pale Moon makes you more identifiable and trackable, presuming you don't obfuscate the User-Agent value.

https://panopticlick.eff.org

Anonymous automatthew April 05, 2014 6:30 PM  

"But now we find someone has done the work for us, and in addition to that, we also get optimizations. They are just bonus. But depriving them of a Firefox user in the statistics, that's the statement."

The auto-update feature could also keep Mozilla informed about the number of actual users, no matter what user-agent shenanigans people play.

Blogger Duke of Earl April 05, 2014 6:31 PM  

My last message didn't post. Just checking.

Anonymous Salt April 05, 2014 6:31 PM  

automatthew, what tracks you is your 'paper' trail, your IP address.

Blogger Duke of Earl April 05, 2014 6:32 PM  

Okay.

Switched to Pale Moon too. It has the functionality of Firefox but it is faster.

It's how I remember Firefox when I first used it years ago.

Blogger Markku April 05, 2014 6:32 PM  

When we fuck with the brand, we are speaking the language of CEO's and boards. Which is exactly what we want. With the source, we're speaking the language of the coders. We have nothing against them.

Anonymous jack April 05, 2014 6:37 PM  

Rolf: Pale Moon seems to work for me, though I still can't post comments here with it, just like FireFox. I have to do that through IE.

Interesting. I'm using Firefox , for now, with a Vista laptop. Have no trouble commenting anywhere I go. ???

Blogger Markku April 05, 2014 6:37 PM  

Rolf: Do you use NoScript? Some people have had problems with using it here.

Anonymous Salt April 05, 2014 6:52 PM  

I had that problem with FF once. It was a wrong setting in Options.

Blogger Salt April 05, 2014 6:57 PM  

I had to allow 3rd party cookies under privacy and I set to keep till closed.

Anonymous Anonymous April 05, 2014 7:05 PM  

If anyone want's a replacement to thunderbird here it is:
https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Evolution

Anonymous Anonymous April 05, 2014 7:07 PM  

This guy wrote an article on how to get rid of mozila:
http://pukeko.net.nz/blog/2014/04/how-to-get-rid-of-mozilla/

Blogger MidKnight April 05, 2014 7:16 PM  

For what it's worth, I am posting this with Pale Moon on my mac - running under Wine via Winebottler. A few oddities - keyboard shortcuts I'm used to for selecting text don't work quite as expected in WINE. You have to use CNTRL instead of COMMAND for copy/paste. (I amy tweak my wine settings)

Anonymous jack April 05, 2014 7:23 PM  

Downloaded Pale Moon. It warned me that the migration utility might have trouble with Vista, and, so it did. When trying to cross load the profiles from FireFox to Pale Moon it kept giving me the splash screen that the process was taking more time than usual and did I want to continue. I clicked continue about 15 times; it timed out anyway and wanted to start again. I did. Finally, I ended it. it took quite a while to end End. It seemed nothing good happened. I was mostly interested in my most recent unsorted bookmarks from Firefox. I said some choice words but the went to Pale Moon and the unsorted bookmarks just to see; and they were there!
I clicked on a few and was startled with the rendering speed to the sites. This darn thing is FAST! Nice. Any other profile stuff I will deal with as needed. For now I will run the old with the new alternating until sure then uninstall Firefox.

Anonymous Servant April 05, 2014 7:39 PM  

Since I use Comodo Internet Security, I just switched to their Dragon. A little getting used to be seems at least as nice as Firefox.

Anonymous Dave April 05, 2014 7:39 PM  

Thanks, made the switch...was becoming weary of Firefox's bloatedness and crashes in recent years but hadn't made the effort to find another browser.

It's somewhat amusing that Moonchild is apparently pro-gay marriage...

Anonymous Dave April 05, 2014 7:47 PM  

Had the same problems with migration tool...clicked continue half a dozen times. Started again and eventually said it was complete. Everything was moved including add-ons.

Anonymous Dave April 05, 2014 7:52 PM  

Repost of earlier message that disappeared..

Thanks for Pale Moon suggestion...very noticeable speed difference over Firefox. Had grown weary of Firefox's crashes and bloatedness in recent years but hadn't taken the time to find another browser.

It's amusing that Moonchild is apparently pro-gay marriage...

Anonymous YIH April 05, 2014 7:54 PM  

I've been using Pale Moon for about 12 hours now. Though early, so far, so good.
I installed Pale Moon 'clean' (import nothing) then went to the firefox 'store' to find/install extentions. Everything worked without a hitch.
I do like when the menu bar is shrunk to a 'button' in the upper left corner the page 'title' is still visible in the frame (firefox and chrome hide that to display thier custom 'min/max/close buttons)
Performance: I'd switched back to firefox about 2 weeks ago due to chrome getting flakier and flakier (slowdowns and full crashes). Firefox had the occasional slowdown (that could also be due to my aging frankenputer with XP).
Speedwise, I can't really say it's any faster or slower than firefox (to early to tell in general).
Stability: Again, to early to tell (no crash in 12 hours doesn't mean much).
Not sure if I could recommend it yet, but I'm not dissatisfied with it.
The reason I can't recommend it is due to it's 'newness' (despite it being a 'fork' of firefox).
People tend to come to me asking ''what do you trust to not fuck up my machine?''
And my answers are ''Firefox, VLC, Microsoft Security Essentials (or AVG)'' because those are my ''go-to no cost no-brainer install on a fresh computer improvements over what comes as default'' on a wintel PC.
It's just like Denniger's take on his new car; little negative to say about it, but admittedly not much expirence with it either.
So far, so good, so I'll stick with it for a while.
Note: don't ask me what to do with your phone, mine is just a dumb 'burner' phone. It does what I need a phone to do - nothing more, nothing less.

Blogger Markku April 05, 2014 7:56 PM  

The reason I can't recommend it is due to it's 'newness' (despite it being a 'fork' of firefox).

Well, it's only a 'fork' in that it REMOVES code from Firefox. Normally a program that you'd think as a fork also adds new code, which this doesn't do.

Blogger Markku April 05, 2014 7:58 PM  

We seem to be having that old problem of comments immediately disappearing, again. Could be partly due to the new installations, in that Blogger's spam filter is much more suspicious of a user that doesn't seem to have any previous history.

Blogger Markku April 05, 2014 8:13 PM  

tz: Be a good chap, reverse-engineer the Visual Studio project file, and make an cmake or scons project from it, will ya?

Anonymous lowkey April 05, 2014 8:24 PM  

I didn't realize that I was talking to a group of women nor that simple logic was against the rules when doing so. And it is revealing that you too parrot the same irrelevant insult. I take it you too have nothing relevant too add?

Anonymous lowkey April 05, 2014 8:34 PM  

Let's assume everyone converts to Pale Moon or other browsers....what happens when Mozilla dies? When the brand dies, either someone has to step up and take over or ALL the derivatives die with it. So it may be a group you like that takes over or it could be one that is more distasteful than Mozilla.

And the real question is why wait for the inevitable collapse of Mozilla? Why not due a true fork today, start fundraising and get in charge of your own future? What good is using a browser heavily based on the millions of dollars that Mozilla brings to Firefox development if you're going to work to see they get no credit? Will Pale Moon generate the kind of money necessary to support a project like Firefox?

Or are you cutting off your nose to spite your face?

Anonymous Josh April 05, 2014 8:37 PM  

aspie gonna aspie

Anonymous ENthePeasant April 05, 2014 8:39 PM  

I had a comment disappear. So this is a test.

Anonymous Tom Bri April 05, 2014 8:39 PM  

Installed PM smoothly on two old, creaky XP machines. One allowed the automatic transfer of bookmarks, the other didn't, but it took about 5 minutes to read the directions and do it by hand. So far so good, smooth, and a little faster than FF. No Shockwave errors so far, which was really starting to piss me off with FF.
Will give it a few days, and if no troubles will delete FF.

Anonymous lowkey April 05, 2014 8:40 PM  

Blending addon for Firefox/Iceweasel/Pale Moon will spoof that field and others for you to be common replies. I do believe it currently spoofs your ID as IE 8 but it may have been updated since I last checked.

Anonymous ENthePeasant April 05, 2014 8:43 PM  

"aspie gonna aspie"

Indeed. Not much can be done about it. However, I'm liking PM quite a bit. I used to have this problem of taking off for a while, like an hour or tow, and when I got back to my seat the damn computer would be froze up tight. Always a shockwave error. Not had a single one in two and a half days. It seems to be running well. FF is gone, long gone.

Blogger Markku April 05, 2014 8:49 PM  

Or are you cutting off your nose to spite your face?

Ignoring the value judgement, yes. We want to kill it. Unless some new, dramatic turn of events happens. But, absent that, die, Firefox, die.

Blogger Markku April 05, 2014 9:00 PM  

And there is no reason to start writing new code to the fork NOW. As I've pointed out before, the code is just fine. No reason to start decreasing compatibility and make it harder for Firefox users to switch over. First, we want to watch Mozilla die, and do a little happy dance on their grave. Then we'll see if someone takes over the code and starts maintaining it. If not, then one of us might step up. But there is no reason whatsoever to do it yet.

Right now, the most important thing is that a Firefox user can switch over as painlessly as possible. Because otherwise they won't.

Anonymous YIH April 05, 2014 9:19 PM  

Markku:
The reason I can't recommend it is due to it's 'newness' (despite it being a 'fork' of firefox).

Well, it's only a 'fork' in that it REMOVES code from Firefox. Normally a program that you'd think as a fork also adds new code, which this doesn't do.

Point taken. I find it surprising that Linux is not supported 'natively' (as firefox always has done). That (and the fact that I'd never heard of Blue Moon until now) makes me think 'new'. It's not worse, but ''the jury is still out'' as to better. That's going to take time.

Blogger James Dixon April 05, 2014 9:21 PM  

Hmm... http://sourceforge.net/projects/pm4linux/

It might be of interest to a few users here.

Blogger Markku April 05, 2014 9:22 PM  

I find it surprising that Linux is not supported 'natively'

Yes it is. Here you go:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/pm4linux/

Only annoying things is, there is no automated source code build environment that could recreate those binaries from the source (that I could find). That's where someone should step up.

Blogger James Dixon April 05, 2014 9:31 PM  

And the 32 bit version seems to run fine under 32 bit Slackware. Now to see if I can figure out how to run without the command line.

Anonymous lowkey April 05, 2014 9:40 PM  

The waiting seems a bad choice to me. If you're committed to a non-Mozilla based solution...why wait to start? Seems wishy-washy to wait. Seems you will always be able to find a reason why now is not good and tomorrow would be better. Problem is tomorrow never comes.

Blogger Markku April 05, 2014 9:42 PM  

Lowkey's TRUE position is now out in the open, with:

Will Pale Moon generate the kind of money necessary to support a project like Firefox?

Or are you cutting off your nose to spite your face?


The two projects not being adequately different was just concern trolling. The reality is, this project does EXACTLY the most efficient thing in hitting Mozilla hard, by making the switch so easy. So, of course lowkey wants us to shoot ourselves in the foot.

Nuh-uh, ain't happening.

Anonymous YIH April 05, 2014 9:46 PM  

lowkey:
Let's assume everyone converts to Pale Moon or other browsers....what happens when Mozilla dies?
First, you think this blog can even do that? NOPE, and Whatever can't 'kill' firefox either.
But even if it could, do you think the ''firefox browser'' would 'die' (as you say)?
You don't know the history of firefox do you?
It began as a project to completely redo Netscape. It's first version (Netscape 6.0) was a disaster of Windows ME proportions.
It was so bad that another firefox-based Netscape did not occur until NS 7.0 which was based on (after a legal dispute) was renamed firefox 0.8.
It managed to get to NS 7.3 before Netscape itself ''died''. The last I've seen, it's being continued as the Seamonkey Project.
There as many 'flavors' of the Linux OS (RedHat, Ubuntu, Debian) if one of those ''dies'' does that mean what Linus Torvalds created ''dies''?
Hop on back to your little rabbit warren. This isn't Whatever.

Blogger Markku April 05, 2014 9:47 PM  

See Troll woo.

Woo, Troll, woo.

Troll is wooing.

Blogger James Dixon April 05, 2014 10:09 PM  

OK. One symbolic link in /usr/local/bin later, a quick change to the XFCE default applications (setting claws mail as my default mail application and Pale Moon as the default browser), a quick Google search to locate the Pale Moon profile, and a cp -a * later, Pale Moon for Linux has fully replaced Firefox on my Slackware machine. It even restarted with all the same tabs open.

I' ll wait a while to uninstall Firefox, especially if I can't get Midori installed, but Pale Moon is now my default browse on both Linux and Windows.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus April 05, 2014 10:10 PM  

Markku (hypnotically repeating): "The brand."

Oh, I get it, it's the brand!

Pale Moon is good. "Firefox" (Mozilla) is not good. Problem solved. Back to sleep, under a comforting (and very convenient) Pale Moon...

Blogger Markku April 05, 2014 10:13 PM  

Oh, I get it, it's the brand!

You have taken the first step into understanding business.

Blogger Markku April 05, 2014 10:18 PM  

Did they have a mortal fear that the Lavender Mafia's actions would lead to less Firefox code being executed in the world? No. They were afraid of their attack on their _____ (fill in the blank)

Blogger James Dixon April 05, 2014 10:20 PM  

> Problem is tomorrow never comes.

Tomorrow always comes. It's someday that never comes. haven't you ever listened to CCR?

Blogger Markku April 05, 2014 10:22 PM  

If tomorrow never dies, then how come someday never comes? Anyone could disprove it using proof by induction.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus April 05, 2014 10:35 PM  

Markku: "They were afraid of their attack on their _____ (fill in the blank)"

(Looks smug but does not hold up hand, in order to give someone else in class a chance to answer.)

Anonymous lowkey April 05, 2014 10:39 PM  

In case you weren't paying attention, if you go back and look you will see my question about Mozilla dying was a response to Markuu saying that is what was desired. Way to twist everything up.

Anonymous YIH April 05, 2014 10:48 PM  

James Dixon:
I' ll wait a while to uninstall Firefox, especially if I can't get Midori installed, but Pale Moon is now my default browse on both Linux and Windows.
As will I. But the whole 'default browser' is a bit overrated. I have nothing but the 'recycle bin' on the desktop (not worth the trouble to remove it IMHO).

Anonymous toothy April 05, 2014 10:48 PM  

Pale Moon it is.

Blogger Markku April 05, 2014 10:49 PM  

Here's a little secret: None of us are expecting to find Mozilla dead tomorrow. It's a slow process. There's time for many things to happen between now and then. Sure, all of them could theoretically be for the worse. But this is the direction where we think is prudent to push.

Blogger Markku April 05, 2014 10:54 PM  

Once again, we like the code and we like the project AS IT CURRENTLY IS. We just don't like the future of the company. And that's exactly what we are getting. We get the present, which we like, and it helps deprive them of their future.

Anonymous YIH April 05, 2014 10:55 PM  

Tad:
In case you weren't paying attention, if you go back and look you will see my question about Mozilla dying was a response to Markuu saying that is what was desired. Way to twist everything up.
And yet Netscape (which spawned ''the Mozilla project'') did 'die' yet Mozilla is healthy enough to hire a CEO and then fire that CEO in two weeks.
You're making Vox's point for him, do you know that?

Blogger Markku April 05, 2014 10:58 PM  

Hmm. _I_ didn't delete lowkey's message, and Vox is already sleeping. And since he apparently hasn't changed browsers lately, that does support the Tad hypothesis. Namely that Blogger has tagged his browser profile as a potential spammer, which is the effect of "Spamming" the trolls' comments like Vox does.

Anonymous YIH April 05, 2014 11:07 PM  

Well Markku: I know, ''don't feed the trolls'', but I've seen this before. I know responding tp someone like that doesn't help but it ''triggers'' me.
Hey, at least I 'spammed' FACTS.

Blogger tz April 05, 2014 11:13 PM  

http://sourceforge.net/projects/pm4linux

Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20140404 Firefox/24.0 PaleMoon/24.4.2

Anonymous geckotail April 05, 2014 11:36 PM  

Thanks for the heads up, I switched to Pale Moon from Firefox today. Here's to the 1st Amendment!

Blogger tz April 05, 2014 11:40 PM  

i'm in the process of uninstalling the bassoon browser and switching over.

Forks are a good thing. There used to be X86 or whatever the X server was, and they got annoying, so the Xorg fork completely displaced them. There are several forks of BSD, each with a niche. Oracle grabbed openoffice, so libreoffice displaced it.

There is a word for a pile of sticks. And another word when an axe is included. Given the hatchet job on Eich, mozilla should hope they have coding equivalents of the photog Maplethorpe (sans fatal disease - and I do consider it a tragedy, but nature is unforgiving).

@Markku:

Someone beat me to it as you've seen and posted the link first. I will be investigating as I have time.

As soon as I can I'll do things in scons (if Make + a few other tings is inadequate). I've done a build script series for the Pi with pikernomatic so I already have CAN, PiTFT and the rest for the latest rpi-update. That takes about a half hour on my mediocre laptop. Penguin-moon will probably be a "buildall.sh" and go to bed leaving a bluetooth under your pillow so you can get the latest change upon waking.

I haven't checked into clang - or AMD or Intel, sometimes they come out with special compilers. (and I do want to do an ARM port). Or maybe I'll have to profile and pull a Steve Gibson and code the critical routines in hand-optimized assembly.

Anonymous CitizenOutkast April 05, 2014 11:57 PM  

Just set it up here at home. Sucks that it doesn't work with Roboform. Will have to see if maybe Lastpass works.

Blogger tz April 06, 2014 12:13 AM  

Even more, I'm glad the design is being questioned. The CA model is broken, and I would prefer a TFT (trust first time) so that "google.com" signed by diginotar would be summarily rejected. They don't display any SSL failure data for the background stuff like css or javascript, so if I got google-analytics for anyone not using noscript I can basically replace any page with my own by writing a javascript that deletes and replaces the page. Or do other things like grab keystrokes or MITM fields.

One thing I would love is either a full textmode browser, or a command line that I could execute (with javascript, etc) to get around things like hotel "click agree to have access to our wifi".

Or even their horrendous Android version - the only reason I would use it is for the password sync, but it does things like bring up a crippled player with autoplay for an mp3 with no option to download ("that is the desired behavior").

Perhaps Mozilla will see the light, or feel the heat - there are more articles critical of their white knight of the long knives approach than there was of Eich. OKCupid even said they didn't intend to get Eich fired (but what did they want - or expect)?

Anonymous MendoScot April 06, 2014 12:25 AM  

The disappearing comments problem appeared for me after installing NoScript. Apparently you have to have google and google-analytics allowed before your comment stays (otherwise it doesn't appear, or disappears after a few minutes).

If anyone else switched to tenfourfox - the plugin block is a problem. I found a workaround editing the config file, but the relevant parameter tenfourfox.plugins.enabled no longer appears in 24.0.0.

Anyilk have a suggestion?

And yes, my next machine is not going to be a Mac; despite the fact that I have nearly twenty years of use out of my 7500/100 and 8 out of this laptop.

Anonymous David of One April 06, 2014 12:36 AM  

Lastpass works.
Ad Blocker Plus works.
NoScripts works.

Blogger Tom April 06, 2014 12:38 AM  

I just uninstalled mine. Let us know when you find a good Thunderbird replacement.

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