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Sunday, May 04, 2014

Once broken, the rules are a dead letter

The illegitimate US-backed government of Ukraine doesn't seem to grasp that it can't appeal to a nonexistent government authority:
Separatists, many of them of Russian descent, believe that the government in Kiev is illegitimate since it formed after what they call the illegal ousting of President Viktor Yanukovych in February. They have demanded that no one in Kiev should control their territory, saying that power and responsibility should rest with them or their Russian ally.

Officials in Kiev have the opposite view. They accuse Moscow of meddling, in its support of separatists and more, trying to break up Ukraine and, perhaps, take over parts or all of it. The government explains their military and security actions in the east and south are aimed at a common goal: to keep their Eastern European nation whole and united.

Referring to his call with Lavrov on Saturday, Kerry said he stressed the United States and allies' desire "for Russia to withdraw support from the separatists, ... assist in removing people from the buildings (and begin) to de-escalate the situation."
Now, if the West backed the Ukrainian coup because it wants a war with Russia for one reason or another, their actions make sense. But if they simply wanted to pull Ukraine out of the Russian orbit while avoiding military action, they appear to have badly miscalculated.

No one, in Eastern or Western Ukraine, views the current government as legitimate, for the very good reason that it is not. The separatists are in the legal right, and Russia has as much right to govern their territory as the officials in Kiev do. Since they prefer the Russians, under the right of self-determination, the USA should, by rights, be backing Russian intervention.

It is not, obviously, because it supported the coup in the first place, and that's giving the USA the benefit of the doubt, and assuming, contra some indications, that it was not primarily responsible for the coup in the first place. But regardless, making a public appeal to a nonexistent government authority that no one recognizes isn't fooling anyone and it isn't clever, it simply makes US diplomacy look as if it is being run by low-IQ amateurs.

Perhaps that is the idea and there are much larger plans within plans being played out here. I'm not privy to such lofty discussions. But if I lived in Taiwan, I'd be leaving right around now. And if I lived in Japan, I'd be looking to move to the countryside. Trusting these masters of geopolitics to provide protection from China, even if war in Ukraine is somehow avoided, seems like a bad idea.

UPDATE: The Russian warning could not be much more overt:
Speaking in Moscow yesterday, Mr Peskov said: "People are calling in despair, asking for help. The overwhelming majority demand Russian help. All these calls are reported to [President] Vladimir Putin." He made clear that the Russian government blamed the West for the worsening situation, while stressing the need for "dialogue" towards a peaceful resolution. "Kiev and its Western sponsors are practically provoking the bloodshed and bear direct responsibility for it. Those who recognise this junta as a legal power become an accomplice to this crime."
The Ukraine "government" in Kiev isn't legitimate by any standard of which I am aware, and those supporting it are, as the Russians have correctly pointed out, going to be seen as responsible for provoking the ongoing bloodshed.

UPDATE 2: This bodes well:
Citing unnamed German security sources, Bild am Sonntag said the CIA and FBI agents were helping Kiev end the rebellion in the east of Ukraine and set up a functioning security structure. It said the agents were not directly involved in fighting with pro-Russian militants. "Their activity is limited to the capital Kiev," the paper said.
I imagine the White House doesn't want to see CIA and FBI agents captured and paraded before the global media. They had better hope the Russians don't have anyone in Kiev.

Labels:

90 Comments:

Blogger Outlaw X May 04, 2014 5:43 AM  

No one, in Eastern or Western Ukraine, views the current government as legitimate, for the very good reason that it is not

We got a bunch of 'tards running our foreign policy. Did they not learn anything from 08/08/08? We have drawn enough red lines to cover the board.

Do you not think that Russia has moved short range nuclear missiles to the border? It would be suicide to start a conflict with them. NATO bases would be reduced to nuclear rubble.

Anonymous LES May 04, 2014 5:46 AM  

Did the US install a new government in the Ukraine by coup with the intention of forcing a confrontation with Russia?

If Russia crosses the Ukraine border the EU will support war with Russia.
If Russia allows the US puppets in Kiev to oppress East Ukraine then it loses
its gas and oil pipelines to Europe and the revenue it needs to survive.

It seems the US is trying to provoke Russia into crossing the Ukraine border.
Russia is in a no-win situation as far as I can tell. But will they die quietly?

Scary times. It's all about the US creating a global government.

Anonymous zen0 May 04, 2014 5:53 AM  

If someone could assassinate that sulphurous toad Soros, all this would go away.

Blogger Crude May 04, 2014 6:03 AM  

If Russia crosses the Ukraine border the EU will support war with Russia.

You really think this? I'm no scholar of international politics, but I find it hard to believe the EU wants to entangle itself in a war over a country that historically has always been close to Russia anyway, and doing so while Russia seems quite capable of causing economic trouble to the EU if push came to shove.

If the EU really was geared up to fight Russia, then all of this would make sense from an American point of view: if the EU fought Russia and the US stayed out of it until the very end, maybe we'd economically return to where we were just after the end of WWII.

Blogger Crude May 04, 2014 6:05 AM  

I'll say, Obama declaring war on Russia would be the stuff of dark comedy. The first black US president, winner of a nobel peace price, getting into a hot war with our old Cold War enemy?

And if we actually did that, for some reason I get the impression China would decide that now is the ideal time to settle old scores with Japan and Taiwan.

Anonymous zen0 May 04, 2014 6:35 AM  

@Crude:

I find it hard to believe the EU wants to entangle itself in a war over a country that historically has always been close to Russia anyway,

The EU (Germany) does not even want further sanctions to be imposed on Russia, so I would concur with your findings.

Blogger Outlaw X May 04, 2014 6:43 AM  

Russia is in a no-win situation as far as I can tell. But will they die quietly?

Scary times. It's all about the US creating a global government.


You got it backwards. The US is in the no win situation. The EU depends on Russia for Natural gas. They have no army to speak of and no one trusts America anymore. Russia holds all the cards, except the banks, but they don't need the banks, they have natural resources that the EU needs and they have a president that don't bluff.

Blogger Outlaw X May 04, 2014 6:50 AM  

Our president is too busy trying to kill the unborn, destroy God fearing Americans, Takeover Healthcare while Putin is paying people to have babies, turning the economy around and bringing back Christianity to Russia. Not because Putin is Good and Obama bad, it is because Putin smart, Obama dumb.

Blogger JDC May 04, 2014 7:17 AM  

Putin, and by association Russia is disqualified, end of discussion. Sovereignty and the right to govern one's lands is irrelevant to the debate. Putin is the chief exporter of homophobia, and therefore anything he says or does should be immediately invalidated because homophobia makes my ass hurt.

Anonymous YIH May 04, 2014 7:47 AM  

Putin, and by association Russia is disqualified, end of discussion. Sovereignty and the right to govern one's lands is irrelevant to the debate. Putin is the chief exporter of homophobia, and therefore anything he says or does should be immediately invalidated because homophobia makes my ass hurt.
Meet our newest 'Tad', JDC

Anonymous Roundtine May 04, 2014 7:47 AM  

Putin is the chief exporter of homophobia, and therefore anything he says or does should be immediately invalidated because homophobia makes my ass hurt.

All of Putin's enemies are butthurt. But not all because of Putin.

Blogger Jon Drake May 04, 2014 8:10 AM  

Americans won't fight for the Ukraine.

And isn't Kerry a Jew?

Blogger Outlaw X May 04, 2014 8:34 AM  

Meet our newest 'Tad', JDC

I think that was sarcasm.

My thoughts on this are on my blog if you are interested. Vox has brought to the forefront something that may effect us all and it can't turn out for good.

OpenID bc64a9f8-765e-11e3-8683-000bcdcb2996 May 04, 2014 8:40 AM  

I only see one issue with current American Foreign Policy concerning Ukraine.
Clinton's actual "work", followed by Mr. Kerry's "thoughts".
BOTH appointed by Mr. Obama's team of installed "advisors".
But that's just me.

CaptDMO

Anonymous PhillipGeorge(c)2014 May 04, 2014 8:50 AM  

The only thing missing from this story is East Ukrainian separatists using WMD chemical weapons on poor Ukrainian peasant girls wearing traditional clothing and clutching babies while they flee their peasant rubble farmhouses.

Else where in the world "joke" night revealed that the USA has been run by a Kenyan for 6 years,

The guts of the matter: Vladimir Putin has the moral high ground.

For three hundred odd years the Russians have been caricaturized as the bear. Rounding a biblical admonition not to mess with a bear's cubs - Georgia, Crimea, Ukraine?

Many a visionary has seen the Russians lay waste to the USA. The Scythians are swift - and, I suspect, won't be playing the fool at joke nights.

[climbing the ladder in conservative websites]

Anonymous Storm Saxon's Gall Bladder May 04, 2014 8:59 AM  

Comment while you can. The first russian strike will be to shut down our power grid by malware.

Blogger JDC May 04, 2014 9:11 AM  

@YIH - Check it out. Dustin Hoffman, 'Rain Man,' look tad, act tad, not tad. Count toothpicks to your cards. Autistic, sure. Not tad. You know Tom Hanks, 'Forrest Gump.' Slow, yes. Retarded, maybe. Braces on his legs. But he charmed the pants off Nixon and won a ping-pong competition. That ain't tad. You went full tad, man. Never go full tad.

Blogger JDC May 04, 2014 9:27 AM  

Quote from Outlaw: The calculation is this. When they sink one of our carriers with 5000 sailors aboard the American people will get behind the war, they probably will. The draft will come back if this thing does not go nuclear. The protests will start and we will lose badly. America will desist from being an empire to a whooped pup. People across the world will cheer at our defeat.

I was in St. Louis this past week at a Stephen Ministry Leader training course. I had the pleasure of sharing a table with a retired Army Chaplain. Part of my sarcasm (which I understand isn't always helpful or insightful), came from our discussion about the Russia / Ukraine debacle. He proposed a similar scenario - some cataclysm that is blamed upon Russia - but he also believed the anti-homophobia contingent in the U.S. will throw their pink anti-war ribbons in the bin and don a destroy the homophobic Russia ribbon. We joked about what color that would be. We agreed on chartreuse with flecks of mauve. Funny how rabbit-think can turn peace loving bohemians into war-mongering fundamentalists.

Anonymous bob k. mando May 04, 2014 10:04 AM  

JDC May 04, 2014 7:17 AM
because homophobia makes my ass hurt.



pretty sure you got that backwards, JDC.

i think it's too much homophilia that makes your ass hurt. try not having anal sex for a week and see if your ass doesn't get better.

< /s >

Anonymous A Visitor May 04, 2014 10:30 AM  

Good image on force disposition. I wish the media would show that on ABC, CBS, etc. Doubtful though.

Blogger Bies Podkrakowski May 04, 2014 10:39 AM  

Poor, poor Ukrainians. Trying try to get rid of yoke of their natural Russian masters, and getting no love. It is hard to be patriot these days.

Blogger tz May 04, 2014 10:40 AM  

Worse, a Keynesian Kenyan.
The last time they tried an experiment an removing control in the Ukraine we.got.Chernobyl. Russia still has nukes.
War? How is Iraq, Libya, Egypt, and Yemen doing?
Its no fun when the opposition is serious.

The interesting thing will be to watch the GOP. Thw neocons may want war but Obama isn't quite that stupid, and real.war.against Russia will be about as popular as TARP.

Blogger James Dixon May 04, 2014 11:21 AM  

> I think that was sarcasm.

Seems like a safe bet, yes.

Anonymous The other skeptic May 04, 2014 11:27 AM  

The Nazis are still useful tools.

Anonymous Mr. Nightstick May 04, 2014 11:35 AM  

But if I lived in Taiwan, I'd be leaving right around now. And if I lived in Japan, I'd be looking to move to the countryside.

At what point do you stay and fight?

Anonymous The other skeptic May 04, 2014 11:49 AM  

I see what's going on in Ukraine.

Kerry called in a swatting hoax.

Blogger frigger611 May 04, 2014 11:56 AM  

I think Russia has every right to protect its assets in Sevastopol, and to protect the ethnic Russians living in a land whose government has disintegrated. I further agree that our administration has bungled things badly and are partly responsible for the coup in Ukraine. The Ukrainians trusted our dipshit progressive leadership. (Do liberals EVER keep their promises?)

Having said that, I am wondering what your opinion of a recognized standard for government is? You said "The Ukraine "government" in Kiev isn't legitimate by any standard of which I am aware, and those supporting it are, as the Russians have correctly pointed out, going to be seen as responsible for provoking the ongoing bloodshed."

King George III and his parliament also claimed that the our founding fathers had no right to govern themselves and any attempt at forming their own government would be illegitimate, by British standards.

Do the Ukrainians have a right to a timetable that would allow them to cobble together a new constitution or articles of confederation or whatever?

I am not sure what work is being tried by those assumed to be in power, domestically, in Ukraine.

I think this will all work out in Russia's favor. And I can't say it saddens me. The EU has relied on US money and military for far too long, they've abused our goodwill (and our taxpayers) and this mess is in their backyard. If the whole of Europe fears the might of Russia's military, maybe they shouldn't have slashed their own military budgets in favor of so much socialism. All the while the servile people of Europe learned to hate America - we're everybody's bogeyman.

We should stay out of this one and tell Europe, "You know the old saying. Too bad."

Blogger Tommy Hass May 04, 2014 12:12 PM  

If various European countries made the best out of their militaries, would they be capable to become world powers capable of projecting power comparable to the Brits before WW1? Or in other words: what is it that prevents various countries from being Americas match? For example if Germany focused hard on improving their military and it wasn't nipped in the bud, would they ever be able to become a super power militarily? Is it mere size?

In short, is it physically impossible for all other countries to match the US in military strength; if yes, why and if no, who could theoretically do it if left alone and making optimal decisions?

Anonymous Frank Brady May 04, 2014 12:23 PM  

The American media's coverage of the Ukraine story is literally "incredible". It is a matter of open record, available to anyone, that the US government and its agents organized, equipped, financed and directed the coup that overthrew the democratically-elected (albeit corrupt) former President of the Ukraine. That act is disgusting enough. What is worse, however, is the unanimous failure of establishment media organs to inform the public of U.S. involvement and the unanimity with which ALL U.S. news sources, from FOX to MSNBC and Yahoo, continue to peddle the U.S. government's official lies, blaming Russia for the instability that Washington deliberately created.

This is a signal of the extent to which the U.S. has lapsed into totalitarianism. Our "news" sources are simply propaganda organs for an evil and aggressive regime.

Anonymous YIH May 04, 2014 12:31 PM  

This just in from ZeroHedge:
Dozens Of CIA, FBI Agents "Advising Ukraine Government", German Press Reports.

Blogger Matamoros May 04, 2014 12:48 PM  

Russia has as much right to govern their territory as the officials in Kiev do

This means that the U.S. has the right to invade and take over any country in the world to "protect our citizens."

So let's not hear any more anti-U.S. Imperialism.

Hah!. Ukraine is a sovereign country. Russia has no rights to interfere with internal Ukrainian matters, or to take its territory, Crimea included.

Remember, Russia is a guarantor of Ukranian sovereignty and territory. And it had a treaty with Ukraine for the base at Sebastopol.

Russia has not operated in good faith, and the Neo-Soviet military aggression will cause a Russian collapse.

If Russia is foolish enough to militarily try to take over Ukraine I believe that there will be no more Russian Federation, only a truncated Russia and a bunch of new "republics" like after WWI.

It is Russia who has the most to lose in this, and neo-Sovietism is not the correct route.

Blogger Tommy Hass May 04, 2014 12:53 PM  

"
This means that the U.S. has the right to invade and take over any country in the world to "protect our citizens."

So let's not hear any more anti-U.S. Imperialism."

You moronic idiot, Russians invading the Ukraine would be a RESPONSE to American imperialism.

Anonymous Big Bill May 04, 2014 1:04 PM  

The poster of troop movements is telling.

Only the Ukranian junta forces and Russian forces are illustrated.

They deliberately leave out the NATO forces massing in Eastern Europe.

The only way to stop this craziness is by drafting Jewish college boys. Only then will you see the Mark Rudds, Jerry Rubins and Abbie Hoffmans come out of the woodwork and resist further American invasion of foreign countries. That is what it took to mobilize against Vietnam back in the late 1960s.

Anonymous Gen. Kong May 04, 2014 1:06 PM  

The regime in Kiev is "legitimate" for the very same reasons those situated in Washington, London, Berlin, Paris, Brussels, Madrid, Helsinki, Warsaw, Athens, Canberra] Ottawa and all the others - including Vatican City - in the so-called west are: Because bankstas say so. That's really all there is it.

Anonymous The other skeptic May 04, 2014 1:12 PM  

Dozens Of CIA, FBI Agents "Advising Ukraine Government", German Press Reports.

Well, they are in good hands if they need sanitized reports on the killing of children and fudge packers.

No doubt we will find out that it all happened because some deranged Coptic Christian produced a movie.

Anonymous Gen. Kong May 04, 2014 1:28 PM  

Crude: I'm no scholar of international politics, but I find it hard to believe the EU wants to entangle itself in a war over a country that historically has always been close to Russia anyway, and doing so while Russia seems quite capable of causing economic trouble to the EU if push came to shove.

I think you're confusing the EUSSR's enslaved population (who does almost as little to oppose their slavery under the cartel as our own idiocracy in the USSA) with the sordid collection of psychopaths, traitors and various genocidal criminals who inhabit the governments, courts and militaries of the various EUSSR okrugs. Note the total lack of resistance to the recent arrest of Weston in the UK Okrug for quoting Churchill in public, or the Greeks' passivity in the wake of the bank-installed PM's crushing of Golden Dawn after promising the ADL convention in the USSA he would deal with them. The EUSSR nomenklatura will do as they're told and support as needed. Obviously, the ruling cartels want to provoke a war with Russia. Almost as obviously, large numbers of patriotard morons in the USSA will sign up for duty at the war cry of Admiral Juan 'Batshit' McAmnesty, Limbaugh, Hannity, Fox News and the leadership of the Gay Old Pedos - having failed to comprehend Sam Donaldson's memo following the re-incoronation of D'Won High Holiness Housenigga Hussein: It's our country now! Also as usual, the joke's on them. Chumps.

Anonymous VD May 04, 2014 1:51 PM  

This means that the U.S. has the right to invade and take over any country in the world to "protect our citizens."

In addition to the 130 countries it is already occupying with its military forces? Your argument is ridiculous. The USA is the aggressor here and everyone except you, apparently knows it.

Anonymous The other skeptic May 04, 2014 1:52 PM  

Also as usual, the joke's on them.

Nope. The joke's on you

Anonymous The other skeptic May 04, 2014 1:55 PM  

In addition to the 130 countries it is already occupying with its military forces?

The Ukraine may well prove to be a bridge too far.

Blogger Expendable Faceless Minion May 04, 2014 2:08 PM  

I think the real question is "Is the new Russia under Putin going to be a good place to live?".

The USA that I know and love is becoming more and more unlivable by the day. Dealing with the Russian organized crime syndicates is going to suck, but it'll probably be better than the US under Hillary, or "Mr/Ms Socialist Dictator 2016", whomever that is going to be.

I wonder what the future bodes for our host in Italy. The Mafia came from there, and it isn't all that far from the current troubles in east Europe. I'm guessing their socialism is even worse than here, and has been for a while.

Anonymous The other skeptic May 04, 2014 2:17 PM  

I imagine that Samuel Pearlman is feeling prescient around about now:


Well I've opened up my veins too many times
And the poison's in my heart and in my mind
Poison's in my bloodstream, poison's in my pride
I'm after rebellion, I'll settle for lies


However, maybe that is because he had inside information.

Blogger Bies Podkrakowski May 04, 2014 2:19 PM  

@Big Bill

Massing forces? A dozen combat aircraft, hundred American troops, some military exercises planned in next few weeks, four thousand troops in all (that's about a hundred per NATO country), hundred American troops in Poland, everything far from Russian borders. I wouldn't call this massing. Rather totally inadequate response to situation from the countries that want to forgot about Ukraine, put their collective heads in the sand and concentrate on making business with Russia hoping that problems will go away by themselves. Let Ukrainians understand their geopolitical position and de facto agree to partitioning of their country.

@Vox

Better American “occupation” with all their PC craziness and gays than Russians.

Anonymous The other skeptic May 04, 2014 2:29 PM  

Better American “occupation” with all their PC craziness and gays than Russians.

Except that TPTB seem intent on the Stalinization of the West and perhaps the rest of the world and the elimination of local cultures in favor of one that suits them. That did not work in Russia, China, Cambodia ... and the Russians know it.

Anonymous The other skeptic May 04, 2014 2:48 PM  

It causes similar results elsewhere.

Anonymous scoobius dubious May 04, 2014 3:08 PM  

Russia should propose a sort of Eastern European version of the EU (not a bureaucratic hell but a loose federation dedicated to common interests) with Ukraine, Belarus, the Baltic states and as much of the Balkans and Mitteleuropa as can be persuaded to come along (would love to see Hungary and Czech switch sides). Then they should seal all their borders to immigrants and begin rebuilding white demographics. That's the key issue of our times, not anything else.

Blogger Bies Podkrakowski May 04, 2014 3:21 PM  

@The other skeptic

But for now it seems to do wonders for strengthening Ukrainian national feelings. They were quite moribund but there is nothing like war for such things. It forces fence-sitters from east to take positions, makes blood boil and instills proper patriotic positions. Maybe it will also destroy this kinky conviction that Russians cherish that Ukrainians are their younger proteges. Or even better there is no such things as Ukrainians only Russians that do not know that they are Russians.

Anonymous The other skeptic May 04, 2014 3:24 PM  

Then they should seal all their borders to immigrants and begin rebuilding white demographics. That's the key issue of our times, not anything else.

Not is if this guy has his way on Open Borders.

He says that it is immoral that people who what to get away from the hellholes they have created in their own countries are not allowed to bring their hell-hole creating behavior here. He wants more Mogadishus on the Mississippi.

Anonymous The other skeptic May 04, 2014 3:26 PM  

But for now it seems to do wonders for strengthening Ukrainian national feelings

Is the Ukraine a natural nation?

Blogger Richard Sharpe May 04, 2014 3:34 PM  

Those open borders advocates construct some lousy arguments.

How are these any better?

You should give me the job because I am female.

You should give me the job because I am brown.

You should give me the job because I am an atheist.

You should give me the job because I am a sexual deviant.

Blogger Bies Podkrakowski May 04, 2014 3:39 PM  

@scoobius dubious
Sorry, for a moment It seemed to me that you put Russia and “loose federation” in one sentence. Are we are talking about Russia that from the beginning was a synonym for oppressive, centralized state? No way in hell. Besides there was similar thing in the past. It was called Council for Mutual Economic Assistance, Comecon in short. It sucked so much that after more than twenty years after its fall economies of former member states still lag behind economies of western Europe. Citizens of the countries you mentioned would fight to remain under the oppression of hellish bureaucracy in Brussels rather than go back.

Anonymous Gen. Kong May 04, 2014 3:49 PM  

TOS:
Is the Ukraine a natural nation?

Yes, as much as any is. The problem is not that folks like Bies Podkrakowski want to have their own country. It's only natural that they would. What Podkrakowski utterly fails to comprehend is that the USSA and EUSSR will genocide the Ukrainians as they are presently doing in every single western country. Whether it's creating Mogadishus on the Mississippi or the putative Vicar of Christ fellating and genuflecting before the invading colonizers from Africa and the Ummah, the prime directive of those ruling all western countries is that Whitey must die. So, assuming they manage to permanently take control of the Ukraine - already well under way with lots of CIA and FBI on hand, not to mention Mossad, Soros' folks, and the IMF loans - Mr. Podkrakowski can look forward to his nation being colonized by Africans and Musloids in ever increasing numbers, a constant drumbeat for miscegenation, etc. By the time his supposed "friends" are done, there will be no such thing as a Ukrainian. Perhaps too many lived to tell about the Holodomor, despite 75 years of hard work on the Ministry of Truth's part to keep it buried. Perhaps it's just because they're too pale to suit the ruling cartels, who love die-versity in all white countries. The only way Ukraine could truly exist as an independent nation would be to acquire plenty of nukes or similarly powerful WMDs and have them targeted on London, Paris, Brussels, Berlin, New York, Washington, Rome, Moscow and Jerusalem. Absent that, Boss Putin and the Russian mob might not be the nicest of folks, but they at least probably will allow Mr. Podkrakowski and his countrymen to exist as long as they pay. That's not even on the table for the folks who own the USSA and the EUSSR, whose ideas far exceed anything even dreamt of by that crazy fellow who ruled Germany from 1933-45.

Blogger Bies Podkrakowski May 04, 2014 3:50 PM  

@The other skeptic
“Is the Ukraine a natural nation?”
Natural nation? What even does it mean? Is America natural nation? (I suspect it may derail the discussion).

Ukraine has borders, language, people calling it their homeland, killing its neighbors and being killed by them in turn for quite a long time, and – most important killing each other to decide what Ukraine is. They are a nation.

Anonymous The other skeptic May 04, 2014 3:55 PM  

Ukraine has borders, language, people calling it their homeland, killing its neighbors and being killed by them in turn for quite a long time, and – most important killing each other to decide what Ukraine is.

My work here is done.

Blogger Bies Podkrakowski May 04, 2014 4:01 PM  

@Gen. Kong

Actually I am not Ukrainian. I live in the neighborhood.

So the only way is to accept Russian domination or face destruction from multicultural hordes? The same Russia that is still in throes of demographic catastrophe and has quickly growing Muslim population? False choice.

Besides what immigrant will want to settle in Central Europe when Western is so much richer?

Anonymous scoobius dubious May 04, 2014 4:03 PM  

"Are we are talking about Russia that from the beginning was a synonym for oppressive, centralized state? No way in hell."

Fine, leave Russia out of it. An Eastern European federation reaching from Finland through the Baltics and Poland to Ukraine and the Balkans would work fine, and it could be a buffer, playing cards with both Russia and the EU. The important, crucial thing is to seal the borders. There _must_ be a sizeable white nation or superstate with borders closed to all immigrants, permanently, or else it's the end of the world in about another 50 years.

Blogger Bies Podkrakowski May 04, 2014 4:05 PM  

@ The other skeptic

Not so fast Skeptic. What do you have against nations defining themselves through killing neighbors?

Anonymous scoobius dubious May 04, 2014 4:06 PM  

"Besides what immigrant will want to settle in Central Europe when Western is so much richer?"

I'm sure enough of them figure, Any white port in a storm. Even the shittiest white country is a million times better than even the best third world shit-hole. They all know it, and we'd better figure it out and start defending white territory, or the whole world will be a permanent shit-hole.

Blogger RobertW May 04, 2014 4:23 PM  

May I clarify that? The EU may support the intervention as long as the US does the intervening.

Anonymous The other skeptic May 04, 2014 4:30 PM  

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-G1y4i8JPVKc/Uxaa2bwbEUI/AAAAAAAAAPc/-lCSUiOaB9Q/s220-h/putin-dont-always-make-obama-look-like-punk-bitch-just-kiddi-politics-1379278380.jpg

Blogger Bies Podkrakowski May 04, 2014 4:34 PM  

@scoobius dubious

Sorry but no. There are too many small, weak nations with competing interests and outside influences are too strong. Poland doesn't like Russia controlling most of their energy supplies and tries to achieve energy independence Hungary on the other side takes loans from Moscow to build nuclear power plant. Czechs are practically Slavic Germans. Slovakians don't like Hungarians. Without NATO Baltic countries are easy prey for Russia. Most economies in the region are tied into German economy and are dependent on Russian gas and oil. And so on.
What you are proposing was proposed and tried a few times before. Imperial German Reich tried it with their Mitteleuropa project. Didn’t work. Interwar Poland tried with Intermarium federation. Didn’t work.
The only viable solution seems to be some kind of monarchy. Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth worked for a few hundred years. Austro-Hungarian Monarchy now enjoys good opinion. Of course it is so after enough time has passed that people forgot their ancestors fought to become independent form Vienna. And who in their right mind want to be governed by Habsburgs?
So, however sad it sounds the membership in the EU, with all good and bad that entails is the best countries in the region can hope for.

OpenID simplytimothy May 04, 2014 5:14 PM  

FBI agents in Ukraine getting practice for what's coming here.

Anonymous The other skeptic May 04, 2014 5:42 PM  

FBI agents in Ukraine getting practice for what's coming here.

Nope. They are just gathering further info for their Holocaust Remberence project.

Anonymous LES May 04, 2014 6:55 PM  

Maybe Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Egypt aren't failures of US intervention after all.
Perhaps failed, divided countries was the goal. Same plan for Ukraine.

Blogger Matamoros May 04, 2014 7:12 PM  

Tommy Hass: You moronic idiot, Russians invading the Ukraine would be a RESPONSE to American imperialism.

Well idiots reveal themselves. Welcome idiot.

Russians invading Ukraine is neo-Soviet imperialism. Is that too tough for you?

The Soviets killed 25% of the population of Ukraine. No one in Eastern Europe wants Russia in their countries - especially Ukraine.

Is that simple enough for you to understand?

Blogger Matamoros May 04, 2014 7:23 PM  

One of the real problem here is that Americans see their problems and think they have it worst in the world. Or the EU is a dictatorship, or whatever.

You haven't seen a dictatorship such as the Soviets. The Soviets killed 120 million people - their own people.

Death by gulag, bullet in the head, your whole area being staved to death, etc., etc. Take a look at the Black Book of Communism. Heck, read Ice Breaker by Victor Suvorov for what Stalin had in store for Europe, had Hitler not preempted his attack.

Let's get real here. What the US and EU have are nothing compared to what has gone before by the Soviets. 120 million people! It is why there is a dearth of Russians today.

If Russia is going neo-Soviet it will happen again.

Ukraine is a sovereign nation and has as much a right to exist as does Russia.

Blogger James Dixon May 04, 2014 7:47 PM  

> Or in other words: what is it that prevents various countries from being Americas match?

Money. Or more accurately, the lack of same. You can spend the money on either guns or butter, but not both. The EU has chosen butter and left the gun supply to us.

Anonymous Dan in Tx May 04, 2014 7:56 PM  

Why do you keep talking about the Soviet Union when it doesn't exist any more? Because you're a mind reader and have decided that Putin is going to somehow put the Humpty Dumpty of the Soviet Union back together again? Seems like a lot of attempts at changing the subject to me. Vox's point still stands: the current government in Ukraine is NOT by any meric legitimate; thus you cannot appeal to it's authority.

Anonymous Don May 04, 2014 8:07 PM  

Paging Col. Kratman.

Anonymous The other skeptic May 04, 2014 8:44 PM  

Now they are telling the story of a male member of the tribe who is pissed about being mistaken for a privileged white male.

Anonymous Dan May 04, 2014 8:51 PM  

At what point do you stay and fight?

When it would actually make a difference? A non-military citizen of Taiwan or Japan isn't going to be very effective if Chinese missiles fly.

Blogger kudzu bob May 04, 2014 8:52 PM  

@Matamoros

Ukraine is a sovereign nation and has as much a right to exist as does Russia.

And so does America, which, if she wants to continue that existence, should cease goading needlessly a nuclear-armed Russia.

Anonymous DT May 04, 2014 8:57 PM  

Ukraine is a sovereign nation and has as much a right to exist as does Russia.

Ukraine was a sovereign nation...right up until a coup that installed an illegitimate leader. When they restore the legitimately elected president, THEN an argument can be made that Russia should bow out and leave Ukraine intact.

Anonymous DT May 04, 2014 8:59 PM  

And so does America, which, if she wants to continue that existence, should cease goading needlessly a nuclear-armed Russia.

Maybe my friend's theory that Obama's goal is to destroy America isn't so far fetched after all...

Anonymous Uppity goyim May 04, 2014 9:09 PM  

Of course the US gov wants war. Their Jewish banking bosses need the white herd thinned out just like they did in 1939 after the 1914 cull didn't go far enough. Once more whites will slaughter whites while the squid overlords get even richer.

Blogger Matamoros May 04, 2014 9:15 PM  

Dan in Tx : Why do you keep talking about the Soviet Union when it doesn't exist any more?

New Lies for Old - Anatoly Golitsyn - author of two books about the long-term deception strategy of the KGB leadership.

In 1984, Golitsyn published the book New Lies For Old, wherein he warned about a long-term deception strategy of seeming retreat from hard-line Communism designed to lull the West into a false sense of security, and finally economically cripple and diplomatically isolate the United States. Among other things, Golitsyn stated:

"The 'liberalization' [in the Soviet Union] would be spectacular and impressive. Formal pronouncements might be made about a reduction in the communist party's role; its monopoly would be apparently curtailed."

"If [liberalization] should be extended to East Germany, demolition of the Berlin Wall might even be contemplated."

"The European Parliament might become an all-European socialist parliament with representation from the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. 'Europe from the Atlantic to the Urals' would turn out to be a neutral, socialist Europe."

Again, this in the planning for the future of Russia by the KGB when Golitsyn wrote his book in 1984, six years before Gorbachov implemented it.

All in the plan for the neo-Soviet empire.

Vox's point still stands: the current government in Ukraine is NOT by any meric legitimate; thus you cannot appeal to it's authority.

It is as legal as any government in Europe. The Soviets set up their puppet governments everywhere. The Allies overthrew the legitimate French government (Vichy) and set up DeGaulle and the 5th Republic, They moved Adm. Doenitz's legitimate government out of the country and set up the "basic law" of the Federal Republic of Germany, so it remains illegitimate.

The fact that nationalists in Ukraine were backed by western banks, etc. does not illegitimatize their cause to take Ukraine or their government back.

And, remember, their Duma (parliament) is the same as it was prior to removing Yanukovych.

They are simply operating under an interim government until a new one can be elected this month.

Blogger Matamoros May 04, 2014 9:20 PM  

DT : When they restore the legitimately elected president,

What about the illegal and illegitimate "president" of the United States? He has never been vetted for president, cannot produce a valid birth certificate, had to have two swearing in ceremonies (one in secret), and rules the U.S. by diktat (executive orders).

Just putting this out there for those who dare to think outside the box about our own problems. As I mentioned above there is no real problem with Ukraine, because their Duma, supported by nationalists (and yes, foreign money), dumped Yankovich for corruption.

Blogger frigger611 May 04, 2014 9:29 PM  

I hear that there are American citizens residing in Mexico, in the Baja peninsula, and that they are in mortal danger because of the drug cartels and the lack of real government to reign in the murderous bastards.

So when do our tanks roll in? I would love to own a villa in Cabo, new American soil.

Anonymous Idle Spectator May 04, 2014 10:21 PM  

What the fuck is the FBI doing in the Ukraine?

Anonymous The other skeptic May 04, 2014 10:27 PM  

What the fuck is the FBI doing in the Ukraine?

They are chasing down those Nazi human traffickers and holocaust deniers.

Anonymous The other skeptic May 04, 2014 11:12 PM  

What the fuck is the FBI doing in the Ukraine?

They are probably also looking for evidence of hate crimes in Odessa.

Blogger Tommy Hass May 04, 2014 11:36 PM  

"Russians invading Ukraine is neo-Soviet imperialism. Is that too tough for you?

The Soviets killed 25% of the population of Ukraine. No one in Eastern Europe wants Russia in their countries - especially Ukraine.

Is that simple enough for you to understand?"

The Soviet Union hasn't been around for more than 2 decades you strange, strange person.

Furthermore, most of these atrocities happened under Stalin, who died in the 1950s.

The USA overthrew the democratically elected leader of a country with very close historical ties to Russia, right at it's doorstep. That my friend is an act of aggression and Russia is justified in reacting.

Blogger Tommy Hass May 04, 2014 11:37 PM  

"The Soviet Union hasn't been around for 2 decades you strange, strange person. "

Anonymous The other skeptic May 04, 2014 11:53 PM  

The Soviet Union hasn't been around for 2 decades you strange, strange person.

Yes, but we are reliably informed that the KGB has an evil plan, and Putin is their devil. Or is that a cunning stunt? I don't know.

Blogger Hermit May 05, 2014 6:23 AM  

I hosted a russian-ukrainan girl here for some days, she told me that things are worse than they look.
Ukrainan media are completely unreliable and completely manipulate the news and our media use them as source, the nazis who did the dirty works now have some seats in the government are changing history textbook to rehabilitate the ukrainan nationalists who helped Germany in WWII.

tl;dr nazis are in the government, and ALL mainstream media (here and in Ukraine) are 100% bullshit

Our proclaimed free information is just a parody.

Blogger Bies Podkrakowski May 05, 2014 7:33 AM  

"The Soviet Union hasn't been around for 2 decades you strange, strange person.”
But most of the reigning elites of Russia originated In Soviet secret services, KGB, GRU and the Communist Party. For Putin fall of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century. They have Soviet Union in their bones and souls. Many common Russians long for the imperial splendor of Soviet Union. They were poor and oppressed, yes but they could console themselves: we are world power.
You can trace this heritage in present Russian propaganda about Ukraine. Ukrainians are fascist as if the war with Germans has never ended. Ungrateful bastards side with West against Soviet Union/Mother Russia, which defended them against Nazi onslaught.
So maybe Soviet Union is dead in body but part of its spirit lives on.

Blogger Matamoros May 05, 2014 11:04 AM  

Tommy Hass German Hass = Hate.

Tommy Hate, did you pick that on purpose, or what.

Blogger Matamoros May 05, 2014 11:20 AM  

Bies is exactly right about the Soviet Union living on in spirit, and as Golitsyn warned us, undercover as well.

Russian Officials Persecuting Christians as Well as Muslims in Occupied Crimea - http://www.interpretermag.com/russian-officials-persecuting-christians-as-well-as-muslims-in-occupied-crimea/

The West is being subjected to a propaganda blitz
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/04/pro-russia-trolls-ukraine-guardian-online

Meanwhile in Russia
http://euromaidanpr.com/2014/05/05/russia-strengthens-penalties-for-organizing-mass-disturbances-and-terrorism/

Lies of the Russian mass media
http://euromaidanpr.com/2014/05/05/lies-of-the-russian-mass-media/

Anonymous Heh May 05, 2014 12:20 PM  

Thought of Scoobius when I read this...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2620344/A-streak-color-Appalachia-Surprising-photo-series-documents-Hispanic-communities-living-nestled-hills-one-Americas-whitest-regions.html

Anonymous Concerned Rabbit Hunter May 05, 2014 6:38 PM  

So now we can choose which lies to believe or disbelieve ... that is great.

Anonymous Anonymous May 06, 2014 11:12 AM  

I think you got it wrong. It's not homophobia that makes your ass hurt. It's being homosexual that does it.

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